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http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airlines-flight-missing-en-route-china/story?id=22827892 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airlines-flight-missing-en-route-china/story?id=22827892)
Malaysia Airlines Flight Goes Missing En Route to China
March 8, 2014
ABC NEWS
A Malaysian Airlines flight with 227 passengers on board has gone missing, a spokeswoman has confirmed to ABC News.
The Beijing-bound flight departed Kuala Lumpur at 12:55 a.m., and was scheduled to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m., the airline said.
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The aircraft is a Boeing 777-200ER. Trying to confirm the registration number.
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(http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/AP_malaysia_jef_140307_16x9_992.jpg)
A Boeing 777-200IGW, like the one pictured, has gone missing while inflight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, March 7, 2014.
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Any storms enroute?
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Just for the record, because I am an aviation geek, the 777-200IGW was renamed the -200ER about 15 years ago.
If this aircraft has been destroyed, it will be the fourth 777 hull loss.
Lots of conflicting information about flight track, registration, etc.
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CNN) -- A passenger flight carrying 239 people en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing is missing, Malaysia Airlines said Saturday.
The airline said in a statement that Subang Air Traffic Control in Malaysia lost contact with Flight MH370 at 2:40 a.m. (1:40 p.m. ET Friday).
The Boeing 777-200 departed Kuala Lumpur at 12:41 a.m. and was expected to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m., a 2,300-mile (3,700 kilometer) trip.
It was carrying 227 passengers, two of them infants, and 12 crew members, it said.
"Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft," the statement said. The public can call +603 7884 1234 for further information.
The airline operates in Southeast Asia, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East and on the route between Europe and Australasia.
"It doesn't sound very good," retired American Airlines Capt. Jim Tilmon told CNN's "AC360." He noted that the route is mostly overland, which means that there would be plenty of antennae, radar and radios to contact the plane.
"I've been trying to come up with every scenario that I could just to explain this away, but I haven't been very successful."
He said the plane is "about as sophisticated as any commercial airplane could possibly be," with an excellent safety record.
The airline's roots date back to 1937, when it operated passenger and cargo flights in Malaysia.
In April 1942, it was incorporated as Malaysia Airways Limited; it later became Malaysia Airlines.
The airline has its headquarters and registered office at Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah Airport in Subang, Malaysia, and its main airline hub is at Kuala Lumpur International Airport, according to its website.
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Only a few things would cause a modern airliner to simply disappear in flight.
Bomb
Structural failure unrelated to a criminal/terrorist act (Usually due to bad/improper maintenance/repairs)
Hijacking
Deliberate crash by a pilot (has happened before)
Pilot error
Surface to air (Patriot/SM-2, SM-3/S-300 types, not Stingers) or air to air missile
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As aviation buffs know, one of the major contributing factors for the Asiana crash at San Francisco was pilot error, but if you dig in deeper, the wider problem is an over-reliance on the auto pilot systems by Asian (in particular) commercial airline pilots. There are many high hour airline pilots that might have less than one minute of actual stick time during any particular flight. As soon as the aircraft is airborne, they engage the autopilot and let the computer fly the aircraft all the way to just before touchdown when the pilot resumes control for the final landing approach. These guys are not comfortable with their hands on the controls, and that means they are poorly prepared for just about any emergency, as most of them have "Bold Face" actions steps that require instant action by the pilot, and there is no time for him to figure out what the computer is telling him while the plane flies itself into the side of a mountain.
US airlines and the FAA have come close more than once, to outright banning pilots from certain countries (South Korea leads the list) along with several airlines (including Asiana). These pilots have historically been some of the most poorly trained, and hazardous airline pilots the world has ever seen. While "pilot error" is the term used, "pilot incompetence" would be more descriptive. "Controlled flight into terrain" is another of my favorites.....
Let's wait for some facts.
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Any storms enroute?
Weather looks clear.
Another possibility I forgot, mid air collision. It would not be the first time. I can think of three major accidents within the last 20 years or so caused by mid air collisions not involving something small like a fighter or Cessna.
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We deeply regret that we have lost all contacts with flight MH370 which departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41 am earlier this morning bound for Beijing. The aircraft was scheduled to land at Beijing International Airport at 6.30am local Beijing time. Subang Air Traffic Control reported that it lost contact at 2.40am (local Malaysia time) today.
Flight MH370 was operated on a Boeing B777-200 aircraft. The flight was carrying a total number of 239 passengers and crew – comprising 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members. The passengers were of 13 different nationalities. Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft. Our team is currently calling the next-of-kin of passengers and crew.
Focus of the airline is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support. Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members. The airline will provide regular updates on the situation.
The public may contact +603 7884 1234. For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276.
Next-of-kin may head to the Support Facility Building at KLIA’s South Support Zone. For directions, call 03 8787 1269.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html
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(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1920211_10152267804573812_2100467128_n.jpg?dl=1)
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Weather looks clear.
Another possibility I forgot, mid air collision. It would not be the first time. I can think of three major accidents within the last 20 years or so caused by mid air collisions not involving something small like a fighter or Cessna.
They are just as likely to have flown the plane into the ocean while trying to un-frack the computer.
:smokin:
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(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1920211_10152267804573812_2100467128_n.jpg?dl=1)
Don't trust Flightaware too much on stuff like this. I've seen numerous flights "disappear" on FA and in the end, nothing has happened.
It disappeared 2 hours after takeoff, much farther along the FA shows.
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Ran out of fuel. That's the latest I'm hearing.
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Ran out of fuel. That's the latest I'm hearing.
I would avoid believing anything like that right now.
While that is possible, there are about a dozen of other things that could have happened which all make equal sense. Given the fact that it had over 7 hours of fuel on board, and disappeared after 2 hours of flight, fuel starvation seems unlikely.
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I would avoid believing anything like that right now.
While that is possible, there are about a dozen of other things that could have happened which all make equal sense. Given the fact that it had over 7 hours of fuel on board, and disappeared after 2 hours of flight, fuel starvation seems unlikely.
It had seven hours of fuel which means it would NOW be out of fuel, not that it ran out of fuel and crashed because of fuel starvation.
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It had seven hours of fuel which means it would NOW be out of fuel, not that it ran out of fuel and crashed because of fuel starvation.
Yes, but it disappeared ~2 hours into the flight so running out of fuel causing the disappearance is unlikely.
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Yes, but it disappeared ~2 hours into the flight so running out of fuel causing the disappearance is unlikely.
exactly.
It was reported at 35,000 feet when it went silent,
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And to think I used this site before tracking loved ones flying and always felt relieved when they said EN ROUTE:ON TIME
http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByRoute.do?departure=KUL&arrival=PEK (http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByRoute.do?departure=KUL&arrival=PEK)
http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlight.do?id=345373294&airline=MH&flightNumber=370&departureDate=2014-03-08 (http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlight.do?id=345373294&airline=MH&flightNumber=370&departureDate=2014-03-08)
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The last two people Megyn Kelly interviews (one the former head of FAA) said what Chief said here... too much depending on the computers and not enough training.
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A Malaysia Airlines flight carrying 239 people en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing is missing, the airline confirmed.
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing B777-200/ Wikimedia Commons
The Boeing 777-200 aircraft had 227 passengers, including two infants, and 12 crew members on board, the airline said in a statement. The passengers were of 13 different nationalities.
"Our team is currently calling the next-of-kin of passengers and crew," the airlines' group chief executive officer, Ahmad Jauhari Yahya, said in a statement. "Focus of the airline is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support."
"Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members," he added.
Flight MH370 departed from Kuala Lumpur at 12:41 a.m. Saturday local time, according to a statement from the airline. Air traffic control in Subang lost contact with it two hours later.
It was scheduled to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m. the same day.
China's CCTV said 160 Chinese nationals were on board the flight, according to microblogging website Weibo.
Chinese state TV also reported there had not been any reports received yet about any aircraft crashed in Chinese waters.
State news agency Xinhua reported radar contact with the flight was lost while it was in Vietnamese airspace.
China is helping to locate the aircraft, Chinese state television said on one of its official microblogs.
If the plane is found to have crashed, the loss would mark the second fatal accident involving a Boeing 777 in less than a year, after an unblemished safety record since the jet entered service in 1995.
Last summer, an Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 crash landed in San Francisco, killing three passengers.
Boeing said it was aware of reports that the Malaysia Airlines plane was missing and was monitoring the situation but had no further comment.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-en-route-to-beijing-with-239-aboard/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-en-route-to-beijing-with-239-aboard/)
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The last two people Megyn Kelly interviews (one the former head of FAA) said what Chief said here... too much depending on the computers and not enough training.
That's been noted as a real problem after the Asiana crash in SFO.
However, it is not the first time that pilot error has been related to technology. The first generation of jets had issues with pilots NOT replying on their electronics and trying to fly "by the seat of their pants." A 707 or DC-8 handles a lot differently than a DC-7 or Boeing 377.
And John Scott is a moron. Saying that if a door or window blows out, everyone dies instantly. That is complete and utter bunk. Look at the story of United Airlines Flight 811.
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Jon Scott (himself a pilot) said it looks like it was or should have been over the South China Sea.
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Merged topics.
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China is saying that 160 of the passengers were their citizens and that despite Twitter rumors, the aircraft did not land somewhere in China.
There were passengers from 13 different countries.
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The BBC reported that the aircraft lost contact with Ho Chi Minh City Air Traffic Control at 01:20am local time.
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It veered off it's path, made a 600 foot drop and then disappeared from sight.
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BOEING 777 GOES MISSING OVER VIETNAMESE AIRSPACE
Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane en route to Beijing with 239 aboard - CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-en-route-to-beijing-with-239-aboard/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-en-route-to-beijing-with-239-aboard/)
(http://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2014/03/08/4650b3ee-710a-43b6-9e1c-6fd81ef0fc6a/807e5b872f5b9766b40fc8bf06865a0f/kuala-lumpur-plane-map.jpg)
Still nothing really new.
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4 Americans on board, 3 adults and 1 American.
Fox and CNN did not cover the press conference, like they said they would do.
The captain is 53, has been flying the Malaysia Airlines since 1981, and has over 18,000 hours of flying experience.
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It has to be something nefarious to not hear anything at this point. Usually they confirm crashes quickly.
WAIT BREAKING NEWS ON THIS
Vietnam says missing Malaysian plane's signal detected - Xinhua | English.news.cn
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/08/c_133170651.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/08/c_133170651.htm)
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It has to be something nefarious to not hear anything at this point. Usually they confirm crashes quickly.
WAIT BREAKING NEWS ON THIS
Vietnam says missing Malaysian plane's signal detected - Xinhua | English.news.cn
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/08/c_133170651.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/08/c_133170651.htm)
That's been denied.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/malaysia-airlines-missing-vietnam-idUSL3N0M505Z20140308
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That's been denied.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/malaysia-airlines-missing-vietnam-idUSL3N0M505Z20140308
Wow.how.sad
The news just broke from that site 6 minutes ago so I thought it was new.
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http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/malaysia-jet-vanishes-three-americans-plus-one-infant-board-n47516
Malaysia Jet Vanishes: Three Americans Plus One Infant On Board
By M. Alex Johnson
A Malaysia Airlines flight carrying 239 people — including four Americans — lost contact with air traffic control and was missing hours after it was supposed to have landed in Beijing, the airline said Saturday.
The airline told NBC News that a search-and-rescue mission was under way for Flight MH370, a Boeing 777-200, and that relatives of those on board were being notified.
The flight from Kuala Lumpur, carrying 227 passengers from 14 countries — including two infants — and 12 crew members, had been scheduled to land at 6:30 a.m. in Beijing (5:30 p.m. ET Friday). But Subang Air Traffic Control in Malaysia reported that it lost contact at 2:40 a.m. (1:40 p.m. ET Friday).
Most of the passengers — 153, including one of the infants — were Chinese, the airline said Saturday. The other infant was an American, one of four on the plane, it said. Thirty-eight people were from Malaysia, and 12 were from Indonesia.
Four Americans Aboard Missing Flight
The airline identified the pilot as Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, a 23-year veteran of the airline with 18,365 hours of flight experience. The first officer, Fariq Hamid, 27, joined the airlines in 2007 and had 2,763 hours of flight time.
The plane disappeared about two hours into its flight, when it would have been over Vietnamese airspace. The official Chinese news agency Xinhua said the plane never entered Chinese airspace.
"Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members," the airline said.
Hishammuddin Hussein, Malaysia's defense minister and acting transport minister, took to Twitter to say echo the sentiment, saying he was "shocked."
Boeing told CNBC it was aware of the report and was monitoring the situation.
Michael Palmer, a meteorologist for The Weather Channel, said there were no significant weather conditions in the area.
"It's pretty much clear skies" from Kuala Lampur to Vietnam and the rest of Southeast Asia, Palmer said.
The 777-200 is considered one of the safest aircraft in the world. U.S. aviation records show fewer than 60 incidents, most of them minor, since it made its debut in 1995.
The jet's fire-resistant interior and strong seats were credited with limiting casualties in July when another 777-200, this one operated by Asiana Airlines, crashed at the San Francisco airport. Only two of the 307 people aboard were killed.
Catherine Chomiak, Tracy Connor and Sossy Dombourian of NBC News contributed to this report.
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That's been noted as a real problem after the Asiana crash in SFO.
However, it is not the first time that pilot error has been related to technology. The first generation of jets had issues with pilots NOT replying on their electronics and trying to fly "by the seat of their pants." A 707 or DC-8 handles a lot differently than a DC-7 or Boeing 377.
And John Scott is a moron. Saying that if a door or window blows out, everyone dies instantly. That is complete and utter bunk. Look at the story of United Airlines Flight 811.
Or Aloha Airlines Flight 243, in which the only fatality was a very unfortunate flight attendant. Even though the front half of the roof tore off at 24,000 feet (a little more than 4 miles above the ground).
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Just for the record, because I am an aviation geek, the 777-200IGW was renamed the -200ER about 15 years ago.
If this aircraft has been destroyed, it will be the fourth 777 hull loss.
Lots of conflicting information about flight track, registration, etc.
Is that you in Myst's picture with the honking big lens hanging off his right side?
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Boeing 777 carrying 239 people vanishes over Vietnam 'after abruptly plunging 650ft' two hours after take-off amid fears of crash
-Four Americans and seven Australians among the missing on flight MH370
-Flight declared missing nearly 90 minutes after it was due to land
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/08/article-2576087-1C1EA44D00000578-34_634x438.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/08/article-2576087-1C1EA44900000578-542_634x519.jpg)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576087/Malaysia-Airlines-says-plane-missing.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576087/Malaysia-Airlines-says-plane-missing.html)
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It has to be something nefarious to not hear anything at this point. Usually they confirm crashes quickly.
Very possible, but no where near a certainty.
Terrorism: Bomb or hijacking (crash on purpose or during a struggle)
Criminal Act: Bomb to kill a passenger(s), sabotage for some reason, or crashed by a member of the crew
Complete structural failure (highly unlikely), however, this aircraft was damaged a few years ago during a ground collision with an Airbus A340 and lost the end of the right wing. However, the damage was no where near enough to cause a complete failure of the wing or aircraft and had long since been repaired. Aircraft have taken far worse damage, been repaired, and flown safely to the end of their careers. (See United Airlines Flight 811.) However, no or very poor maintenance can lead to structural failure. (See Aloha Airlines Flight 243 and China Airlines Flight 611.)
Pilot error, likely compounded or started by equipment failure (See Air France 447)
Mechanical failure such as a cargo door opening in flight (See Turkish Airlines Flight 981 and United Airlines Flight 811 for examples.)
Mid-Air Collision: Has happened plenty of times. (Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907, Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 / DHL Flight 611, Saudia Flight 763 / Kazakhstan Airlines Flight 1907, Luftwaffe Tu-154 / USAF C-141) The last one occurred over the middle of the South Atlantic, what are the odds of that?
Military exercise gone wrong? Could Vietnam have misfired a SAM (Patriot Missile type, not a Stinger) and committed a major foul up? Not likely, but possible.
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Very possible, but no where near a certainty.
Terrorism: Bomb or hijacking (crash on purpose or during a struggle)
Criminal Act: Bomb to kill a passenger(s), sabotage for some reason, or crashed by a member of the crew
Complete structural failure (highly unlikely), however, this aircraft was damaged a few years ago during a ground collision with an Airbus A340 and lost the end of the right wing. However, the damage was no where near enough to cause a complete failure of the wing or aircraft and had long since been repaired. Aircraft have taken far worse damage, been repaired, and flown safely to the end of their careers. (See United Airlines Flight 811.) However, no or very poor maintenance can lead to structural failure. (See Aloha Airlines Flight 243 and China Airlines Flight 611.)
Pilot error, likely compounded or started by equipment failure (See Air France 447)
Mechanical failure such as a cargo door opening in flight (See Turkish Airlines Flight 981 and United Airlines Flight 811 for examples.)
Mid-Air Collision: Has happened plenty of times. (Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907, Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 / DHL Flight 611, Saudia Flight 763 / Kazakhstan Airlines Flight 1907, Luftwaffe Tu-154 / USAF C-141) The last one occurred over the middle of the South Atlantic, what are the odds of that?
Military exercise gone wrong? Could Vietnam have misfired a SAM (Patriot Missile type, not a Stinger) and committed a major foul up? Not likely, but possible.
What about a failure of the flight control systems?
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Is that you in Myst's picture with the honking big lens hanging off his right side?
Nah, not me. I only have 1 camera and its a Canon. The one around his neck is a Nikon. I've never seen a Malaysia Airlines aircraft except maybe in Hawaii in 1993 and/or 94.
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Very possible, but no where near a certainty.
Terrorism: Bomb or hijacking (crash on purpose or during a struggle)
Criminal Act: Bomb to kill a passenger(s), sabotage for some reason, or crashed by a member of the crew
Complete structural failure (highly unlikely), however, this aircraft was damaged a few years ago during a ground collision with an Airbus A340 and lost the end of the right wing. However, the damage was no where near enough to cause a complete failure of the wing or aircraft and had long since been repaired. Aircraft have taken far worse damage, been repaired, and flown safely to the end of their careers. (See United Airlines Flight 811.) However, no or very poor maintenance can lead to structural failure. (See Aloha Airlines Flight 243 and China Airlines Flight 611.)
Pilot error, likely compounded or started by equipment failure (See Air France 447)
Mechanical failure such as a cargo door opening in flight (See Turkish Airlines Flight 981 and United Airlines Flight 811 for examples.)
Mid-Air Collision: Has happened plenty of times. (Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907, Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 / DHL Flight 611, Saudia Flight 763 / Kazakhstan Airlines Flight 1907, Luftwaffe Tu-154 / USAF C-141) The last one occurred over the middle of the South Atlantic, what are the odds of that?
Military exercise gone wrong? Could Vietnam have misfired a SAM (Patriot Missile type, not a Stinger) and committed a major foul up? Not likely, but possible.
At this point all we know is it made a swift altitude change before it disappeared. Could have been avoiding another plane... did you hear Jon Scott say this was the area where a Chinese fighter jet "accidentally" engaged another plane some years ago over an island in the same general area?
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What about a failure of the flight control systems?
That would be under mechanical failure. The Boeing 777 is fly-by-wire with enough mechanical backups to maintain enough control to get the aircraft down safely. The flight control computers (IIRC there are 3) are independent of one another (to the point where one failing will not take out the other two) and each is built by different manufacturers with none sharing an identical component. This way, it is impossible for all three to fail because a shared component has a design flaw. If one goes stupid, the pilot can simply turn it off, or if it won't turn off, pull the breaking and cut the power. Unlike the Airbus, he can do this from the cockpit without leaving his seat.
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Mechanical failure scares the crap out of me as I was on a domestic 737 in the 90's and the right engine fell into someones back yard, so the pilot said, after we landed. He was ex-military or I would not be typing this. It was very frightening I will never forget the drop down. Helpless feelings, no control over a fearful thing is AWFUL.
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At this point all we know is it made a swift altitude change before it disappeared. Could have been avoiding another plane... did you hear Jon Scott say this was the area where a Chinese fighter jet "accidentally" engaged another plane some years ago over an island in the same general area?
Yeah, I heard that when Scott was babbling. Remember, he was hot dogging because it was a US military aircraft in the area. Not a uncommon thing for pilots of any nation to do. The Soviets used to do it to us, and we did it to them. Every now and then one side or the other would get to close and bump the other.
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Mechanical failure scares the crap out of me as I was on a domestic 737 in the 90's and the right engine fell into someones back yard, so the pilot said, after we landed. He was ex-military or I would not be typing this. It was very frightening I will never forget the drop down. Helpless feelings, no control over a fearful thing is AWFUL.
Yep.. know from my own almost crash you have a LOT of time to think at 32,000 feet...
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Mechanical failure scares the crap out of me as I was on a domestic 737 in the 90's and the right engine fell into someones back yard, so the pilot said, after we landed. He was ex-military or I would not be typing this. It was very frightening I will never forget the drop down. Helpless feelings, no control over a fearful thing is AWFUL.
Nearly all crashes today are either pilot error, weather, or terrorism/criminal act. While mechanical failure can compound the first two, it is rarely the only cause.
NTSB investigators like to say that a crash is like a chain. It is caused by numerous things happening together which under normal circumstances, one or two alone would cause no problems. Hook them all together is when disaster happens. Remove just one link, and no disaster.
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Back in 20.
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Back in 20.
seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, centuries, millenia, aeons? :silly:
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He must need to use the facilities??????
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He must need to use the facilities??????
:silly:
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Sad picture
CCTVNEWS @cctvnews
Beijing International Airport has published a list of passengers onboard the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370. pic.twitter.com/hV5zy69c9E
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiLPlc3CYAAkLgl.jpg)
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576087/Malaysia-Airlines-says-plane-missing.html
Boeing 777 carrying 239 people lost over Vietnam: Jetliner feared crashed with four Americans on board 'after abrupt 650ft plunge'
Passengers and crew from France, Australia and China among the missing
Flight MH370 declared missing nearly 90 minutes after it was due to land
By Associated Press and Richard Shears
PUBLISHED: 19:56 EST, 7 March 2014 | UPDATED: 23:19 EST, 7 March 2014
A major search has been launched for a Malaysian Airlines jet with 239 people on board after it lost contact flying from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
Airline officials admitted they were gravely concerned for the safety of the aircraft, which was carrying four Americans and seven Australians, as well as passengers from France and China.
Crying relatives of Chinese passengers on board the plane wept at Beijing airport as it became clear the jet had probably crashed.
An unconfirmed report on a flight tracking website said the aircraft had plunged 650ft and changed course shortly before all contact was lost.
The route would have taken flight MH370, a B777-200 aircraft, across the Malaysian mainland in a north-easterly direction and then across the Gulf of Thailand.
Those on board included two infants and 12 crew members, Malaysian Airlines said in a statement, adding it was working with all authorities in the region and search and rescue teams had been mobilized.
As well as the American and Australian passengers, the aircraft was carrying 153 Chinese, 38 Malaysians, 12 Indonesians and 32 people from France.
The aircraft had been due to land in Beijing at 6.30am local time but at 7.54am the airline issued a statement saying it had not landed and was officially missing.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/08/article-2576087-1C1EB43A00000578-598_634x629.jpg)
Aviation experts said that if the report of the aircraft suddenly plunging was correct it could be due to a number of factors.
These include a catastrophic engine failure; the pilots taking evasive action to avoid another aircraft; or an explosion.
The airline has not said whether the pilots were able to issue a distress call - but if they did not, experts said this could indicate a catastrophy that had occurred without warning.
Malaysian Airlines said it would issue updates as soon as more information became available.
The aircraft had enough fuel on board for a seven-hour flight and the airline said that given the time it has been missing it would have already run out of fuel.
Fearing the worst, the airline has begun contacting relatives of the passengers warning them that the flight has not arrived and they should prepare themselves for bad news.
The Boeing jet lost contact with Malaysian air traffic controllers a little over two hours into its flight.
Reports from China's Xinhua news agency said later that the aircraft was lost in air space controlled by Vietnam and did not enter Chinese airspace or make any contact with Chinese controllers.
Vietnam is heavily shrouded in forest and there were no immediate reports coming from that country of an aircraft crashing.
Vietnamese authorites said they were investigating the aircraft's disappearance.
'Our team is currently calling the next of kin of passengers and crew,' the airline's chief executive, Ahmad Jauhari Yahya, said as the airline issued a statement saying its 'thoughts and prayers' were with all those on board as well as their families.
Unconfirmed reports said it was believed the missing aircraft was involved in a crash in August 2012 when it damaged the tail of a China Eastern Airlines plane at Shanghai Pudong Airport.
The reports said that in that incident the tip of the wing of the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 broke off.
Retired American Airlines captain Jim Tilmon told CNN that 'it doesn't sound very good,' as the search continued for the missing jet.
'The route is mostly overland, which means there would be plenty of radars and radios to contact the plane.
'I've been trying to come up with every scenario that I could just to explain this away, but I haven't been very successful.'
Mr Tilmon said the jet was 'about as sophisticated as any commercial airplane could possibly be.'
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He must need to use the facilities??????
Needed to take a shower.
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A "650ft plunge" doesn't really mean much, especially coming from flight tracking websites. Also, aircraft have plunged thousands of feet due to turbulence and survived.
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UPDATE [12:37]: Tuoi Tre, a leading daily in Vietnam, reports that the Vietnamese Navy has confirmed the plane crashed into the ocean. According to Navy Admiral Ngo Van Phat, Commander of the Region 5, military radar recorded that the plane crashed into the sea at a location 153 miles South of Phu Quoc island.
When contacted, Malaysia Airlines declined to confirm or deny the reports, saying that the Malaysian authorities are working together with the Vietnamese government on the matter.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraft-goes-missing--says-airline-023820132.html
Always wary of these reports, so take it with a grain of salt for now.
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Sky News is steaming live coverage. All of the US networks are on reruns.
http://news.sky.com/templates/watch-live
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UPDATE [12:37]: Tuoi Tre, a leading daily in Vietnam, reports that the Vietnamese Navy has confirmed the plane crashed into the ocean. According to Navy Admiral Ngo Van Phat, Commander of the Region 5, military radar recorded that the plane crashed into the sea at a location 153 miles South of Phu Quoc island.
When contacted, Malaysia Airlines declined to confirm or deny the reports, saying that the Malaysian authorities are working together with the Vietnamese government on the matter.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/mas-aircraft-goes-missing--says-airline-023820132.html
Always wary of these reports, so take it with a grain of salt for now.
Just speculating on my part - but with the recent train attack in China an attack on a plane carrying a lot of Chinese would not be out of the realm of possibility and if they were going to plan to blow the plane out of the sky the preference would be over water - right?????????
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Just speculating on my part - but with the recent train attack in China an attack on a plane carrying a lot of Chinese would not be out of the realm of possibility and if they were going to plan to blow the plane out of the sky the preference would be over water - right?????????
Blowing up a plane over the ocean has historically been preferred by terrorists.
Pan Am 103 would have blown up over the Atlantic if it had not been delayed. Air India Flight 182 blew up over the Irish Sea due to a bomb planted by the Sikh militant group Babbar Khalsa. They also tried to bomb Air India Flight 301 from Tokyo on the same day, but the bomb went off prematurely and killed two Japanese baggage handlers.
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Blowing up a plane over the ocean has historically been preferred by terrorists.
Pan Am 103 would have blown up over the Atlantic if it had not been delayed. Air India Flight 182 blew up over the Irish Sea due to a bomb planted by the Sikh militant group Babbar Khalsa. They also tried to bomb Air India Flight 301 from Tokyo on the same day, but the bomb went off prematurely and killed two Japanese baggage handlers.
Would not surprise me if this is the case.
They recovered the black boxes for the French Airbus out of 10,000 feet. How deep is the China Sea in this area? I don't imagine anywhere near 10,000 feet.
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Would not surprise me if this is the case.
They recovered the black boxes for the French Airbus out of 10,000 feet. How deep is the China Sea in this area? I don't imagine anywhere near 10,000 feet.
Not that deep. The data recorders are designed to survive pretty much anything.
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Searchers Spot Oil Slicks in Search for Missing Malaysian Airliner
Saturday, 08 Mar 2014 08:09 AM
By Newsmax Wires
The Malaysian Airline plane that vanished from radar screens Friday during a flight to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur with 239 aboard remained missing Saturday, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said.
Search operations midway between Malaysia and Vietnam's southern coast were being intensified for the aircraft carrying 239 passengers and crew, and Vietnamese air force planes reported spotting two large oil slicks off the southern tip of Vietnam that could indicate a crash.
Relatives of the 154 Chinese nationals on the flight gathered at a hotel in Beijing to await news, CNN reports.
Flight MH370 departed from the Malaysian capital about 12:40 a.m. local time and was scheduled to arrive in Beijing at 6:30 a.m., the airline said in statements today. A search is under way for the Boeing Co. 777-200 aircraft, the airline said. Passengers are from 13 countries, it said.
“We deeply regret that we have lost all contacts with flight MH370,” said Ahmad Jauhari Yahya, chief executive officer of Malaysian Airline System. “Our team is currently calling the next-of-kin of passengers and crew.”
China’s aviation authority said that the Malaysian flight hadn’t made contact, the Xinhua News Agency reported, citing the authority. The authority said that the flight-radar signal was lost with Ho Chi Minh City air control, Xinhua reported.
Faud Sharuji, vice-president of operations control for the airline, said that there was no idea where the aircraft was, CNN reported in an interview with the executive.
At least 158 passengers were Chinese, according to Xinhua.
“We’re closely monitoring reports on Malaysia flight MH370,” Chicago-based Boeing said in a statement on its Twitter feed. “Our thoughts are with everyone on board.”
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UPDATE: Sr. State Dept. official confirms 3 Americans on Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370; trying to determine if any others aboard. Meanwhile, the US 7th Fleet has sent the USS Pinckney and a P-3C aircraft to assist in search efforts for the missing airliner.
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Vietnam spots oil slicks in hunt for missing jet
Associated Press
By EILEEN NG and CHRIS BRUMMITT
2 hours ago
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — Vietnamese air force planes on Saturday spotted two large oil slicks in the area where a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 vanished earlier in the day, the first sign that the aircraft carrying 239 people on board had crashed.
The air force planes were part of a multinational search operation launched after Flight MH370 fell off radar screens less than an hour after it took off from Kuala Lumpur for Beijing early Saturday morning.
A Vietnamese government statement said the slicks were spotted late Saturday off the southern tip of Vietnam and were each between 10 kilometers (6 miles) and 15 kilometers (9 miles) long. There was no confirmation that the slicks were related to the missing plane, but the statement said they were consistent with the kinds that would be produced by the two fuel tanks of a crashed jetliner.
Two-thirds of the missing plane's passengers were from China, while others were from elsewhere in Asia, North America and Europe.
Malaysia Airlines CEO Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said there was no indication that the pilots had sent a distress signal, suggesting that whatever happened to the plane occurred quickly and possibly catastrophically.
At Beijing's airport, authorities posted a notice asking relatives and friends of passengers to gather at a nearby hotel to wait for further information, and provided a shuttle bus service. A woman wept aboard the bus while saying on a mobile phone, "They want us to go to the hotel. It cannot be good."
Relatives and friends of passengers were escorted into a private area at the Lido Hotel, and reporters were kept away. A man in a gray hooded sweatshirt later stormed out complaining about a lack of information. The man, who said he was a Beijing resident but declined to give his name, said he was anxious because his mother was on board the flight with a group of 10 tourists.
"We have been waiting for hours and there is still no verification," he said.
The plane was last detected on radar at 1:30 a.m. (1730 GMT Friday) around where the South China Sea meets the Gulf of Thailand, authorities in Malaysia and Vietnam said.
Lai Xuan Thanh, director of Vietnam's civil aviation authority, said air traffic officials in the country never made contact with the plane.
The plane "lost all contact and radar signal one minute before it entered Vietnam's air traffic control," Lt. Gen. Vo Van Tuan, deputy chief of staff of the Vietnamese army, said in a statement.
The South China Sea is a tense region with competing territorial claims that have led to several low-level conflicts, particularly between China and the Philippines. That antipathy briefly faded as China, the Philippines, Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia all sent ships and planes to the region.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said that Malaysia had dispatched 15 planes and nine ships to the area, and that the U.S. Navy was sending some planes as well. Singapore, China and Vietnam also were sending aircraft.
It's not uncommon for it to take several days to find the wreckage of aircraft floating on the ocean. Locating and then recovering the flight data recorders, vital to any investigation, can take months or even years.
"In times of emergencies like this, we have to show unity of efforts that transcends boundaries and issues," said Lt. Gen. Roy Deveraturda, commander of the Philippine military's Western Command.
Thanh said Malaysian, Singaporean and Vietnamese search officials were coordinating operations in an 11,200-square-kilometer (4,324-square-mile) area where the plane was last known to be. He said Vietnamese fishermen in the area were asked to report any suspected sign of the missing plane.
The air search was suspended for the night and was to resume Sunday morning, while the sea search was ongoing, the airline said.
The plane was carrying 227 passengers, including two infants, and 12 crew members, the airline said. It said there were 152 passengers from China, 38 from Malaysia, seven from Indonesia, six from Australia, five from India, three from the U.S., and others from Indonesia, France, New Zealand, Canada, Ukraine, Russia, Italy, Taiwan, the Netherlands and Austria.
In Kuala Lumpur, family members gathered at the airport, but were kept away from reporters.
"Our team is currently calling the next of kin of passengers and crew. Focus of the airline is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support," said Yahya, the airline CEO. "Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members."
Fuad Sharuji, Malaysia Airlines' vice president of operations control, told CNN that the plane was flying at an altitude of 35,000 feet (10,670 meters) and that the pilots had reported no problem with the aircraft.
Asked whether terrorism was suspected, Malaysian Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said authorities had "no information, but we are looking at all possibilities."
Malaysia Airlines has a good safety record, as does the 777, which had not had a fatal crash in its 19-year history until an Asiana Airlines plane crashed in San Francisco in July 2013, killing three passengers, all teenagers from China. ...
Read on ... (http://news.yahoo.com/vietnam-spots-oil-slicks-hunt-missing-jet-124630545--finance.html)
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The 777 had not had a fatal crash in its 19-year history until an Asiana Airlines plane crashed in San Francisco in July 2013 and that was pilot error. Whatever happened had to be catastrophic because of the sudden communication loss. Anything else would have has some sort of radio contact with the ground.
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-missing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-missing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)
Expecting the worst: Families await news of missing Malaysian airliner
By Mariano Castillo and Ralph Ellis, CNN
updated 10:23 AM EST, Sat March 8, 2014
(CNN) -- The search for a commercial jetliner that seemingly vanished without warning between Malaysia and Vietnam continued into the night as dark fell on Asia, officials said.
Nobody knows what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, other than air traffic controllers lost track of it not long after it left Kuala Lumpur, the capital of Malaysia, on its way to Beijing.
The families and loved ones of the 239 passengers and crew aboard expected the worst as they awaited any significant development.
The only clue so far is some "rubbish" and a liquid spotted floating in the search area. A Vietnamese plane made the discovery, but it was too early to tell whether it was related to the missing plane.
In the meantime, the search area is being expanded and efforts to locate the plane will continue overnight, said Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, director general of civil aviation in Malaysia.
The area of focus has been in the South China Sea, where the Malaysian airspace and Vietnamese airspace meet.
"We have no idea where this aircraft is right now," Malaysia Airlines Vice President of Operations Control Fuad Sharuji said on CNN's "AC360."
Bits and pieces of information have begun to form, but it remains unclear how they fit into the bigger picture, if at all.
For instance, after the airline released a manifest, Austria denied that one of its citizens was onboard the flight as the list stated. The Austrian citizen was safe and sound, and his passport had been stolen two years ago, Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Weiss told CNN.
Similarly, Italy's foreign ministry confirmed that no Italians were onboard MH370, even though an Italian was listed on the manifest. Malaysian officials said they were aware of reports that the Italian's passport was also stolen, but had not confirmed it.
Malaysian authorities reiterated during a news conference that they are not ruling anything out regarding the missing aircraft.
China, Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia were conducting search and rescue operations south of Tho Chu island in the South China Sea, reported Xinhua, China's official news agency. Ships, helicopters and airplanes are being utilized.
Officials appeared resigned to accepting the worst outcome.
"I'd just like to say our thoughts and prayers are with the bereaved families," Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said during a news conference.
Grief, especially in China
More than half the passengers were Chinese nationals.
Relatives of the 154 Chinese nationals on board gathered Saturday at a hotel complex in the Lido district of Beijing as a large crowd of reporters gathered outside.
"My son was only 40 years old," one woman wailed as she was led inside. "My son, my son. What am I going to do?"
Family members were kept in a hotel conference room, where media outlets had no access. Most of the family members have so far refused to talk to reporters.
The Boeing 777-200 departed Kuala Lumpur International Airport at 12:41 a.m. and was expected to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m., a 2,300-mile (3,700 kilometer) trip. It never arrived.
The plane carried 227 passengers, including five children under five years old, and 12 crew members, the airline said. Air traffic control in Subang, in Malaysia, had last contact with the plane.
At the time of its disappearance, the Malaysia Airlines plane was carrying about 7.5 hours of fuel, an airline official said.
The passengers are of 14 nationalities, the airline said.
Among the passengers there were 154 people from China or Taiwan; 38 Malaysians, and three U.S. citizens.
The airline's website said the flight was piloted by a veteran.
Cap. Zaharie Ahmad Shah, a 53-year-old Malaysian, has 18,365 total flying hours and joined Malaysia Airlines in 1981, the website said. The first officer is Fariq Ab.Hamid, 27, a Malaysian with a total of 2,763 flying hours. He joined Malaysia Airlines in 2007.
Aviation experts weren't optimistic.
Pessimistic assessment
"It doesn't sound very good," retired American Airlines Capt. Jim Tilmon told CNN's "AC360." He noted that the route is mostly overland, which means that there would be plenty of antennae, radar and radios to contact the plane.
"I've been trying to come up with every scenario that I could just to explain this away, but I haven't been very successful."
He said the plane is "about as sophisticated as any commercial airplane could possibly be," with an excellent safety record.
"The lack of communications suggests to me that something most unfortunate has happened," said Mary Schiavo, former inspector general of the U.S. Department of Transportation, in an interview with CNN International.
"But that, of course, does not mean that there are not many persons that need to be rescued and secured. There's still a very urgent need to find that plane and to render aid," she said.
An Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 carrying 291 passengers struck a seawall at San Francisco International Airport in July 2013, killing three people and wounding dozens more. It's unknown if mechanical failure was involved.
Search under way
Several nations launched search and rescue efforts.
The Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) has deployed one aircraft and three ships in a search-and-rescue operation following the disappearance of the plane. The Malaysian government says its navy is cooperating with the Vietnamese navy.
China's Xinhua news agency says the Chinese Coast Guard is sending orders to its on-duty vessels nearby to set out to the water where the plane incident likely occurred.
Malaysia Airlines said it was working with the authorities who have activated their search and rescue team to locate the aircraft. The airline said the public can call +603 7884 1234 for further information.
Malaysia Airlines
Malaysia Airlines operates in Southeast Asia, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East and on the route between Europe and Australasia.
It has 15 of the Boeing 777-200 planes in its fleet, CNN's Richard Quest reported.
Part of the company is in the private sector, but the government owns most of it.
Malayan Airways Limited began flying in 1937 as an air service between Penang and Singapore. A decade later, it began flying commercially as the national airline.
In 1963, when Malaysia was formed, the airline was renamed Malaysian Airlines Limited.
Within 20 years, it had grown from a single aircraft operator into a company with 2,400 employees and a fleet operator.
If this aircraft has crashed with a total loss, it would the deadliest aviation incident since November 2001 when an American Airlines Airbus A300 crashed in Belle Harbor, Queens, shortly after takeoff from JFK Airport. Killed were 265 people, including five people on the ground.
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For instance, after the airline released a manifest, Austria denied that one of its citizens was onboard the flight as the list stated. The Austrian citizen was safe and sound, and his passport had been stolen two years ago, Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Weiss told CNN.
Similarly, Italy's foreign ministry confirmed that no Italians were onboard MH370, even though an Italian was listed on the manifest. Malaysian officials said they were aware of reports that the Italian's passport was also stolen, but had not confirmed it.
Not good.
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The First Officer - Fariq Ab Hamid, a 27-year-old Malaysian
Not wanting to make accusations just because of someone's name, because it is far more likely he was trying to save the airplane - but history shows that jihadist pilots do exist so it is something to consider.
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Not good.
RE: Austrian and Italian passports. Indeed... not good. This is now being widely reported.
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Rap posted the flight manifest of names but it is hard to read you can't enlarge the print.
In this part of the country there were probably a lot of Fariq Ab Hamid's on board. It sounds like a terrorists event. The sad thing is if a terrorist organization took credit only overseas press would report it.
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Rap posted the flight manifest of names but it is hard to read you can't enlarge the print.
In this part of the country there were probably a lot of Fariq Ab Hamid's on board. It sounds like a terrorists event. The sad thing is if a terrorist organization took credit only overseas press would report it.
Malaysia is 61% Muslim so having pilots with Muslim names is not unexpected. Also, in the cases where pilots have intentionally crash an aircraft, the descent is seen on radar until the aircraft is too low to be detected. This one simply vanished which means a catastrophic inflight break up. The question is, what caused the break up. The only thing a pilot could do would be to deploy the thrust reversers in flight, but I'm pretty sure there are safety systems to prevent this because it has happened by accident on earlier model of jets.
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Malaysia is 61% Muslim so having pilots with Muslim names is not unexpected. Also, in the cases where pilots have intentionally crash an aircraft, the descent is seen on radar until the aircraft is too low to be detected. This one simply vanished which means a catastrophic inflight break up. The question is, what caused the break up. The only thing a pilot could do would be to deploy the thrust reversers in flight, but I'm pretty sure there are safety systems to prevent this because it has happened by accident on earlier model of jets.
Hate to say it but it sounds more and more like a detonation of the B word.
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The aircraft was 9M-MRO, a 777-2H6(ER). H6 is Boeing's customer code for Malaysia Airlines.
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7618309
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Hate to say it but it sounds more and more like a detonation of the B word.
Bomb or some kind of failure like China Airlines Flight 611 seems the most likely.
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Bomb or some kind of failure like China Airlines Flight 611 seems the most likely.
An explosion would leave a debris field. No debris field has been found, just two oil slicks.
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I have a feeling this one will take awhile before we know anything definitive with respect to the cause. The good news - if there is any - is that the folks most involved are not concerned about any US election cycle implications.
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An explosion would leave a debris field. No debris field has been found, just two oil slicks.
Which could/should mean that there are TWO different object/pieces which hit the water.
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Not flying again.
March 3, 1974: 346 people are killed when a Turkish Airlines DC-10 experiences a sudden decompression shortly after takeoff from Paris and slams into a park in Ermeonville, France.
March 27, 1977: A KLM Royal Dutch Airlines Boeing 747 beginning its takeoff crashed into Pan American World Airways Boeing 747 then still on the runway at the Los Rodeos Airport at Tenerife in the Canary Islands. A total of 574 people, aboard both planes, died.
May 25, 1979: The left wing of an American Airlines DC-10 falls off as it's trying to take off from Chicago's O'Hare International Airport, setting off chaos that results in 275 deaths on board and three others on the ground. The Federal Aviation Administration later faults American Airlines maintenance techniques for the crash for Flight 191.
November 28, 1979: Some 275 people died when their Air New Zealand plane, a DC-10, hits Mt. Erebus on Antarctica -- a crash that it believed to stem from navigational error.
August 12, 1985: The deadliest-ever commercial air crash involving a single plane occurred nearly 30 years ago in the mountains of central Japan. A total of 520 people were killed when Japan Airlines Flight 123 -- a Boeing 747 -- crashed not long after takeoff from Tokyo. Four people miraculously survived.
May 26, 1991: Twelve minutes after takeoff, Lauda Air's Flight 004 stalls in midair. The Boeing 767 ultimately crashes some 70 miles northwest of Bangkok, Thailand, killing all 223 passengers and crew.
July 11, 1991: The landing gear of a Nigeria Airways DC-8 catches fire shortly after takeoff Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. It doesn't make it back to the airport, crashing nose-down less than 10,000 feet short of the runway and killing all 261 people aboard.
April 26, 1994: The pilot of a China Airlines' Flight 140 alerts the control tower at Japan's Nagoya Airport of his intention not to land and try another approach. But something goes wrong and, a short time later, the Airbus A300 crashes leading to 264 fatalities -- though a few passengers do survive.
July 17, 1996: TWA Flight 800 explodes in mid-air shortly after takeoff from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, then falls into pieces off the coast of Long Island. All 230 aboard die. The National Transportation Safety Board later blames the blast on an electrical short circuit that found its way into the center wing fuel tank.
November 12, 1996: A Saudi Arabian Airlines Boeing 747 and a Kazakhstan Airlines II-76 collide over the airport in New Delhi, India, killing 349 people on both airplanes.
August 6, 1997: Flight 801 that had left Seoul, South Korea, was near its final destination in Guam when it smacked into a jungle and hit the ground. The plane, a Boeing 747, was destroyed and 228 people were killed, though there were 26 survivors.
September 26, 1997: Garuda Indonesia airlines' Flight 152 crashes in Buah Nabar, Indonesia, killing 234 people. A National Transportation Safety Board report issued three years later found the crash's most likely cause was an electrical short circuit in the Airbus A300 that ignited vapors in the fuel tank.
February 16, 1998: Flying through rain and fog, the crew of China Airlines' Flight 676 from Indonesia to Taiwan requests another landing approach at Taipei International Airport. In the process of turning around, the aircraft crashes into a neighborhood, killing all 196 aboard and another seven on the ground.
September 2, 1998: A Swissair jetliner that had departed New York's Kennedy airport on its way to Geneva, Switzerland, goes down off the coast of Nova Scotia, Canada; none of the 229 people aboard Flight 111 make it. Investigators believe that the MD-11 lost all electrical power immediately before the crash.
November 12, 2001: A few weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attack, American Airlines' Flight 587 stirs fears and panic when it plummets into Belle Harbor, Queens. Despite the initial concerns, the National Transportation Safety Board found no evidence of sabotage. Still the Airbus A300 crash had a huge toll -- the highest, in fact, for any single airliner crash in U.S. history -- with all 260 dead on the plane killed plus five more innocents on the ground.
May 25, 2002: Twenty minutes after takeoff, China Airlines' Flight 611 plummets into the Taiwan Strait -- resulting in 225 fatalities. The crash is later attributed to metal fatigue and cracks throughout the Boeing 747.
June 1, 2009: Air France Flight 447 is en route from Rio de Janiero to Paris when it and its 228 passengers and crew go missing somewhere over the Atlantic Ocean. It's not until five days later that the first bodies are found about 600 miles off the northern coast of Brazil. Two years later, French authorities blame the crash on equipment malfunction.
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Stolen European passports on missing plane
Associated Press
By COLLEEN BARRY 2 hours ago
MILAN (AP) — Foreign ministry officials in Rome and Vienna confirm that names of two nationals listed on the manifest of the missing Malaysian airlines flight match passports reported stolen in Thailand.
Italy's Foreign Ministry said Saturday that an Italian man whose name was listed as being aboard is traveling in Thailand and was not aboard the plane.
A foreign ministry functionary, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed Italian reports that Luigi Maraldi had reported his passport stolen last August.
Italian news agency ANSA says Maraldi called home after hearing reports that an Italian with his name was aboard the plane.
Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Weiss confirmed that a name listed on the manifest matches an Austrian passport reported stolen two years ago in Thailand. Weiss would not confirm the identity.
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Stolen European passports on missing plane
Associated Press
By COLLEEN BARRY 2 hours ago
MILAN (AP) — Foreign ministry officials in Rome and Vienna confirm that names of two nationals listed on the manifest of the missing Malaysian airlines flight match passports reported stolen in Thailand.
Italy's Foreign Ministry said Saturday that an Italian man whose name was listed as being aboard is traveling in Thailand and was not aboard the plane.
A foreign ministry functionary, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed Italian reports that Luigi Maraldi had reported his passport stolen last August.
Italian news agency ANSA says Maraldi called home after hearing reports that an Italian with his name was aboard the plane.
Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Weiss confirmed that a name listed on the manifest matches an Austrian passport reported stolen two years ago in Thailand. Weiss would not confirm the identity.
\
One would think that is they're going to make you remove your shoes and provide photo identification to board a plane, that they would also take a photo of each passenger holding up their passport next to their face.
This way, they'd know who's using a stolen passport....in case something happens like this event.
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An explosion would leave a debris field. No debris field has been found, just two oil slicks.
Give them time. A breakup at that altitude would spread debris over an extremely wide area. Depending on the level of breakup, there may not be a lot of large pieces left.
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Not flying again.
You have a much greater chance of being killed the next time you drive your car than dying in a plane crash.
Based on the averages, to be involved in a plane crash, you must fly once a day, everyday, for 30,000 years. Even then, the odds are you would survive.
The only reason plane crashes are big news, is because they are so rare.
I'm flying twice in May, and am not worried.
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It comes down to the mechanics servicing the planes really.
There's no such thing as a minor emergency at 35,000 ft.
I can pull over to the side of the road and step out of a car.....
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Averages don't mean anything if you are that one in a million...
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You have a much greater chance of being killed the next time you drive your car than dying in a plane crash.
Based on the averages, to be involved in a plane crash, you must fly once a day, everyday, for 30,000 years. Even then, the odds are you would survive.
The only reason plane crashes are big news, is because they are so rare.
I'm flying twice in May, and am not worried.
Good for you, really.
I have had two incidents on planes that now have me not wanting to board a commercial plane again. I did not fly every day but I did fly world wide and the two incidents were domestic CONUS.
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It's not the risk (or even the closed in feeling of that sealed cabin!!) that keeps me off of planes. It's the shredding of my rights that I must endure to step aboard....
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It is unusual for one person to board a plane with a stolen passport and very rare for two to do it, terrorism analysts say.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/stolen-passports-prompt-terror-concerns-missing-jet-officials-say-n47861 (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/stolen-passports-prompt-terror-concerns-missing-jet-officials-say-n47861)
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An explosion would leave a debris field. No debris field has been found, just two oil slicks.
absence of evidence, at least at this early point in time, is not evidence of absence.
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It's not the risk (or even the closed in feeling of that sealed cabin!!) that keeps me off of planes. It's the shredding of my rights that I must endure to step aboard....
I agree completely. My parents were foreign service officers so we used to travel by plane all the time. It used to be my favorite form of travel until the federal government turned it into a rights shredder.
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I agree completely. My parents were foreign service officers so we used to travel by plane all the time. It used to be my favorite form of travel until the federal government turned it into a rights shredder.
I look back fondly at airline travel, I was very fortunate to travel to many countries across four continents for business, all before things changed. I just now miss the convenience of domestic US air travel, and I seriously doubt that it will ever return to the way it was, even 15 years ago.
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I agree completely. My parents were foreign service officers so we used to travel by plane all the time. It used to be my favorite form of travel until the federal government turned it into a rights shredder.
I've also had very close calls and still loved to fly until TSA turns it into a nightmare
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If the plane exploded at 35000 ft. The debris will likely be small and scattered.
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I look back fondly at airline travel, I was very fortunate to travel to many countries across four continents for business, all before things changed. I just now miss the convenience of domestic US air travel, and I seriously doubt that it will ever return to the way it was, even 15 years ago.
I have more airline miles on me than most of the pilots flying today dues to having done consulting work in the oil, gas, and petrochemical industries for many years but all of it was before things changed! I don't fly at all today and the EXACT reason for that is the fact that I must be dehumanized and stripped of my rights if I want to fly commercially! I don't need it that badly!
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20 employees of a Texas company were on the plane.
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http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/texas-man-among-239-missing-jet-n48061
Texas Man Among 239 on Missing Jet
A Texas man is one of the three Americans who boarded the Malaysia Airlines flight that vanished from radar without a distress signal over the South China Sea with 239 people on board.
Philip Wood, 50, works for IBM. His family told NBC DFW the American Embassy informed them Wood was on the plane.
(http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2014_10/238821/140308-philip-wood-03-1910_5f3ab24d2575df74000fef4478f3dd0c.nbcnews-ux-960-800.jpg)
Wood's mother told NBC DFW her son was living in Beijing and about to move to Kaula Lampur. Sandra Wood also said her son had visited last week and she felt at peace to have seen him recently.
(http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2014_10/238831/140308-philip-wood-01-1909_db389c9505043326b1bb5dc4cdba0789.nbcnews-ux-480-360.jpg)
Aboard the jetliner were 227 passengers and 12 crew. Most of the passengers were Chinese. Three were Americans — Wood and two children, according to the passenger manifest.
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Our 7th Fleet is moving into the area to assist in the search.
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katzenjammer wrote:
[[ It's not the risk (or even the closed in feeling of that sealed cabin!!) that keeps me off of planes. It's the shredding of my rights that I must endure to step aboard.... ]]
Indeed.
I have not been on a commercial jetliner since 1984.
I will not be setting foot on one again.
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NTSB and FBI are heading to the supposed crash scene as well.
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TWITTER
WSJ Asia@WSJAsia
RT @ByJasonNg: Malaysia widens search of missing #MH370 jet to some unexpected place http://t.co/9JlILbZikV
NOWASIA
Search for Malaysia Airlines Flight Enters Second Day
Two Passengers Appear to Have Boarded Using Stolen Passports
The search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 continued for a second day amid news that two passengers appeared to have boarded using stolen passports.
Malaysia Airlines Hires Disaster Relief Expert from Atlanta
Malaysia Airlines has hired an unnamed disaster relief expert from Atlanta and is scouting possible locations for an operations command center more than 24 hours after an airliner carrying 239 passengers disappeared.
“In fearing for the worst, a disaster recovery management specialist from Atlanta, USA, will be assisting Malaysia Airlines in this crucial time,” the carrier said in a statement.
It said a command center to coordinate efforts would be set up in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam or Kota Bharu along the eastern coast of peninsular Malaysia.
Malaysia Airlines said a senior management team had arrived in Beijing to provide information and support to the families of passengers.
–Jake Maxwell Watts and Gaurav Raghuvanshi
NOWVIDEO
Malaysia’s Civil Aviation Chief: Search Is Ongoing
2 MINS AGO TWITTER
WSJ Asia@WSJAsia
2 listed on missing Malaysia Airlines flight #MH370 weren't on board and had reported passports stolen. http://t.co/8vO9lsbDsJ
2 MINS AGO TWITTER
Newley Purnell@newley
Our latest on Malaysian jet #MH370, with graphic showing location of possible oil slicks: http://t.co/csVqJbrEUs http://t.co/R8QjvMzx1Q
3 MINS AGOSOUTHEAST ASIA REAL TIME
Couple on Missing Flight Headed for Honeymoon
One couple on missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 was headed to Beijing for a honeymoon to celebrate their wedding of two years ago, relatives said Sunday.
By Celine Fernandez
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia –One couple on missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 was headed to Beijing for a honeymoon to celebrate their wedding of two years ago, relatives said Sunday.
Norli Akmar Hamid and her husband Muhammad Razahan Zamani were on the flight that went missing in the wee hours of Saturday after taking off from Kuala Lumpur on its way to Beijing. A massive effort is under way to find the plane.
Relatives spoke to The Wall Street Journal of the couple’s honeymoon plans. The relatives are staying near the Kuala Lumpur International Airport at the Everly Hotel, where as many as 10 floors are reserved for family of passengers on the missing flight. They are receiving counseling.
Several family members, who didn’t want to be identified, spoke briefly to The Wall Street Journal and said they had not been told what happened to the flight.
One woman said she her daughter-in-law was on the flight.
“I feel so sorry for my son,” she said. “He and my husband will fly to where they tell us to go. So far we don’t know where.”
Malaysia Airlines said Sunday it is helping family members with emotional counseling and travel needs.
“The airline is doing its utmost to provide support to the affected family members, this includes immediate financial aid,” the airlines said in a statement.
Malaysia Airlines said its team of caregivers continues to meet with family in Beijing and Kuala Lumpur. It is sending more “caregivers” to Beijing today.
The airlines said it will set up a command center at Kota Bharu, Malaysia, or Ho Chi Minh City when it is clear where the plane is located.
“In fearing for the worst, a disaster recovery management specialist from Atlanta in the U.S. will be assisting Malaysia Airlines in this crucial time,” the statement said.
Comments »CloseOriginal Article Format »
9 MINS AGO TWITTER
Jason Ng@ByJasonNg
Malaysia widens search of missing #MH370 jet to some unexpected place http://t.co/9JlILbZikV
14 MINS AGO TWITTER
Rob Taylor@WSJRobTaylor
Latest on #MH370. Stolen Passports Surface as Hunt Narrows for Malaysian Jet http://t.co/gMPrHzAV8c
21 MINS AGOSOUTHEAST ASIA REAL TIME
Malaysia Widens Search of Missing Jet – To Strait of Malacca
Malaysian authorities are widening their search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 to some unexpected places, including the narrow Strait of Malacca on the opposite side of the country from where the plane was last spotted.
Open
22 MINS AGO TWITTER
WSJ Asia@WSJAsia
Chinese Foreign Minister on missing Malaysia plane: "We're doing all we can to get more details." http://t.co/rMu6wBN81f #MH370
http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia-airlines-flight-370/SS-2-475558/ (http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia-airlines-flight-370/SS-2-475558/)
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JournoDannyAsia 1h
Passenger on Beijing/KL flight spots debris in sea today. 3rd of 3 pics. MH370 Malaysia Airlines @SCMP_News pic.twitter.com/2ThCgduKkJ
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO9p5CQAAd1-B.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO6NuCMAAOcq6.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO2FdCcAA1TCL.jpg)
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@BrendanScott 1h
Four probed passengers bought through China Southern RT @JournoDannyAsia: BREAKING: Reuters - 2 more passengers identities being probed
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@JournoDannyAsia yep, on wire: "The passengers being checked had all bought their tickets through China Southern Airlines"
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MH370 Passenger Manifest - WSJ.com
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303369904579427230127866184 (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303369904579427230127866184)
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http://www.nst.com.my/nation/general/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-pilot-i-established-contact-with-plane-1.503464?cache=03%2F7.247954%2F7.266429%2F7.330034%2F7.425366%2F7.502513%2F7.502513%2F7.502513%2F7.502513%2F7.576448%2F7.576448
MISSING MH370: Pilot: I established contact with plane
0 comments
'INTERFERENCE': Pilot in another plane was flying 30 minutes ahead of MH370
SEPANG: A BOEING 777 pilot, who was flying 30 minutes ahead of the missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft, said he established contact with MH370 minutes after he was asked to do so by Vietnamese air traffic control.
The captain, who asked to not be named, said his plane, which was bound for Narita, Japan, was far into Vietnamese airspace when he was asked to relay, using his plane's emergency frequency, to MH370 for the latter to establish its position, as the authorities could not contact the aircraft.
"We managed to establish contact with MH370 just after 1.30am and asked them if they have transferred into Vietnamese airspace.
"The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27), but I was sure it was the co-pilot.
"There were a lot of interference... static... but I heard mumbling from the other end.
"That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection," he told the New Sunday Times.
He said those on the same frequency at the time would have heard the exchange.
This, he said, would include vessels on the waters below.
He said he thought nothing of it, as the occurrence (of losing contact) was normal, until it was established that MH370 never landed.
"If the plane was in trouble, we would have heard the pilot making the Mayday distress call. But I am sure that, like me, no one else up there heard it.
"Following the silence, a repeat request was made by the Vietnamese authorities to try establishing contact with them."
Meanwhile, Ritzeraynn Rashid, 55, remembers Captain Zaharie as a pleasant and humble man.
They used to fly together in the 1980s, when Zaharie was a co-pilot and he, the leading purser on the B737 services.
He was also close with Patrick Gomes, who was leading the cabin crew aboard MH370.
"Zaharie was always smiling and very cheerful. We shared a lot of good memories. We were like brothers.
"From 1980 to 1991, when I was working with MAS, there was never a day that we did not chat and catch up."
Ritzeraynn, who is now a public relations and communications manager, said Patrick was always looking out for his friends.
"I remember those days when I did not have a car. Patrick would offer his new Ford Laser for me to use.
"In reciprocation, when he has late-night flights and did not want to disturb his mother, I would invite him to my house to stay for the night."
Ritzeraynn, who, like Zaharie, was from Penang Free School, said the school's class of 1978/79 would pray for all those aboard the missing aircraft.
"All the crew members and passengers are in our thoughts and prayers. I miss Zaharie and Patrick very much."
For Fariq's brother, Afiq, the bond they had was beyond sharing a last name.
When updated news reached him that his brother, who is a first officer, was co-piloting MH370, his world shattered.
However, Afiq, 20, finds strength in his hope that Fariq, a Langkawi Aerospace Flying Academy graduate, is somewhere out there alive.
"This is just heartbreaking," was all Afiq could muster, telling the NST that he was grappling between thinking of the worst and keeping himself optimistic.
"I do not know what to tell you. I am not doing okay.
"Sorry, I cannot really think right now. My parents are very sad right now," he said in a text message.
Afiq described his brother, the eldest of five siblings, as a responsible and kind person who exuded warmth, which made him endearing to many.
The chemical engineering student, from Universiti Teknologi Petronas, had earlier tweeted: "Pray for my brother #MH370."
About 7pm, as news on MH370 remained vague, Afiq tweeted: "I'm coming to find you, even if it takes all night."
Their father, Abdul Hamid Md Daud, when met at his house in Shah Alam, asked that the family be given personal space.
(http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.nst.com.my/w1.nst.com.my/polopoly_fs/1.503471.1394300611!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_454/image.jpg.pagespeed.ce.5WlMVWdhPv.jpg)
(http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.nst.com.my/w1.nst.com.my/polopoly_fs/1.503470.1394300568!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_454/image.jpg.pagespeed.ce.BjqLxYXunG.jpg)
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To what end would someone intentionally do this? I am incapable of understanding it.
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To what end would someone intentionally do this? I am incapable of understanding it.
I understand they are investigating or planning to investigate the ground crew who serviced the plane - if it was a bomb it could have been placed on the plane by someone on the ground and set to go off when the plane would be over water.
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To what end would someone intentionally do this? I am incapable of understanding it.
There are some dissident groups in China that are turning very violent. There was just recently an attack in a Chinese city by knife-wielding terrorists who killed quite a few people.
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JournoDannyAsia 1h
Passenger on Beijing/KL flight spots debris in sea today. 3rd of 3 pics. MH370 Malaysia Airlines @SCMP_News pic.twitter.com/2ThCgduKkJ
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO9p5CQAAd1-B.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO6NuCMAAOcq6.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiQO2FdCcAA1TCL.jpg)
How sure are people that this is really debris from an aircraft? From this aircraft?
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How sure are people that this is really debris from an aircraft? From this aircraft?
It's iffy.. it's off the search grid and some wonder if this this trash from Ho Chi Minh City (seriously!!!!!! is this how they get rid of their trash???)
and there is this more recent report..........
@BrendanScott 2h
RT @cjbrummitt: Vietnamese transport minister says no wreckage in vicinity of oil slicks spotted Saturday. Hunt for #MH370 goes on.
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http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1443956/chinese-radar-expert-has-doubts-malaysian-airliner-simply-vanished
Chinese radar expert has doubts that Malaysian airliner simply 'vanished'
Radar technology is advanced enough to track an aircraft 'even after an explosion'
PUBLISHED : Sunday, 09 March, 2014, 6:02am
UPDATED : Sunday, 09 March, 2014, 6:02am
Two further passenger identities are probed as search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight continues
In full: Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 passenger list
Five young children among missing Malaysia Airlines passengers as air search called off
Boeing 777 at centre of Malaysia Airlines disappearance had clocked up 'normal' 20,000 hours' flying
'By the Grace of God we missed our flight' on Malaysia Airlines plane, tweets traveller
(http://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486x302/public/2014/03/09/98851f790f7614a5714b26b3e13710fa.jpg?itok=ItiBIB1)l
The vanished Boeing 777 takes off from Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport in 2011. Photo: AP
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 could not just "disappear", a Chinese military radar expert said yesterday, and asked whether Vietnamese authorities were withholding crucial information or if staff had "neglected their duty".
The aircraft, a Boeing 777-200ER, had reached cruising altitude of more than 10,000 metres when it vanished over the sea between Vietnam and Malaysia, Vietnamese air traffic controllers said.
"This is very strange," the expert said. "Radar technology today is so advanced, even a piece of debris just a metre or two long can be detected easily."
Vietnamese air traffic controllers should have been able to track precisely the whereabouts of the aircraft and reproduce its flight route, said the source, who declined to be named.
Even if the aircraft broke apart in an explosion, the cloud and trajectory of its debris would still leave a trace on a radar screen.
"The plane was flying at a very high altitude. The crew had lots of time to use the emergency radio frequency for help. I find it difficult to believe that the Vietnamese did not detect anything, although some staff might have neglected their duty or were not doing their job properly," he said.
The expert added that the area where the plane went missing was very busy and closely monitored by ground radar networks.
Some passengers might have survived a crash at sea, waiting for rescuers to arrive, the source said. "The rescue efforts have been unreasonably slow," he said. "If there were survivors, whether or not they lived was determined by the speed of the search and rescue operation."
In a meeting with the Malaysian chargé d'affaires to China, Bala Chandran Tharman, and Vietnamese ambassador to China Nguyen Van Tho, Deputy Foreign Minister Xie Hangsheng called on both countries to try their best with rescue work, and to inform the Chinese passengers' relatives about the latest developments.
Xinhua reported that both envoys said they planned to work closely with China and do their best to help facilitate a rescue.
If the plane's black box can be found, investigators should examine whether there was any delay in the rescue operations, according to the radar expert.
"Radars have no blind spot on the ocean. After an accident, radar data should provide a fairly accurate estimate on the plane's final location," he said.
"There has been very little transparency with the information. This is murder to survivors," he added.
This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as Airliners don't just disappear, expert says
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http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1443908/two-further-passenger-identities-probed-malaysia-airlines-flight-counter
Malaysia Airlines flight as 'counter terrorism unit mobilised'
Full flight manifest under investigation as four passenger identities considered suspicious
PUBLISHED : Saturday, 08 March, 2014, 11:56pm
UPDATED : Sunday, 09 March, 2014, 12:19pm
Malaysian authorities are investigating the identities of at least two other passengers on missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, in addition to two who were found to be using stolen passports, a security official said on Sunday.
Investigators were verifying the identities with the relevant embassies in Malaysia, said the official, who has knowledge of the investigation and declined to be identified. The passengers being checked had all bought their tickets through China Southern Airlines, the official said.
The entire flight manifest is now under investigation, said the Malaysian Transport Minister on Sunday, and international agencies and counter-terrorism units were said to be working with authorities.
The flight carrying 227 passengers and 12 crew was presumed to have crashed off the Vietnamese coast on Saturday, after losing contact with air traffic controllers off the eastern Malaysia coast.
The latest developent comes as Malaysia Airlines revealed it had called on the assistance of a disaster recovery management specialist from Atlanta, USA, as it resumed the desperate search for the missing flight on Sunday.
The company said that 'in fearing the worst', it had taken on the squad of experts to assist 'in this crucial time'.
On Saturday evening, it emerged that two tickets to the flight had been purchased using stolen passports.
As the clock ticked past the 24-hour mark and hopes of finding survivors diminished, authorities revealed that two people named on a list of passengers were not on the plane, and that both had had their passports stolen in Thailand.
The revelations came as Malaysia Airlines said a "Go team" had been sent to Beijing to assist frightened family members of the passengers.
Azaharudin Abdul Rahman, deputy chief of Malaysia's Civil Aviation Authority, said on Sunday morning that three aircraft searching the site had not yet located anything.
"We have expanded our areas operations," he added.
In a statement on Sunday morning, the airline said: "More than 24 hours after the lost of contact with Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, the search and rescue teams are still unable to detect the whereabouts of the missing aircraft."
An international search and rescue mission from Malaysia, Singapore and Vietnam was mobilized on Saturday morning.
An earlier statement from the airline addressed the issue of worried relatives who had complained of little information from staff. "We are dispatching all information as and when we receive it. The situation in Beijing is also being monitored closely. As many families of passengers are in China, we have deployed our 'Go Team' to Beijing with a team of caregivers and volunteers to assist the family members of the passengers.
"Once the whereabouts of the aircraft is determined, Malaysia Airlines will fly members of the family to the location. Travel arrangements and expenses of immediate family members will be borne by Malaysia Airlines."
Chinese Premier Li Keqiang yesterday made an emergency call to Malaysian PM Najib Razak, pressing Malaysia to launch a full rescue effort. By last night an international rescue mission was under way.
The Philippines deployed three air force planes and three navy patrol ships. Singapore sent a C130 Hercules aircraft and Vietnam and Malaysia also dispatched aircraft and marine rescue vessels. The destroyer USS Pinckney was en route to southern Vietnam to help.
Two Chinese warships and one other naval vessel have been scrabled to the scene, according to Xinhua.
Foreign ministry officials in Rome and Vienna confirmed on Saturday night that the names of two nationals listed on the manifest of the flight matched those of passports reported stolen in Thailand.
Italian foreign ministry officials said that Luigi Maraldi, originally believed to have boarded the plane in Kuala Lumpur, was traveling in Thailand when the Beijing-bound flight took off at just after midnight on Friday.
He had reported his passport stolen last August, said a foreign ministry functionary, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Italian news agency ANSA says Maraldi called home after hearing reports that someone with his name was on the plane.
"He is alright, he is on vacation, on the beach," his mother told the Italian national TV broadcaster RAI.
Similarly, Austrian Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Weiss confirmed that a name listed on the manifest matches an Austrian passport reported stolen two years ago in Phuket, Thailand. Weiss would not confirm the identity, although Britain's Daily Mirror website named him as Christian Kozel, aged 30.
Infographic - Malaysia Airlines flight MH370: Timeline and flight path of missing jet
The revelations will raise questions over security at Kuala Lumpur's airport, and how the stolen passports were able to be used by people other than their rightful owners.
At a press conference on Saturday evening an airline spokesman refused to rule out terrorism as a possible reason behind the very sudden disappearance of the flight.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak also refused to rule out a terrorist act.
China Southern, who jointly shared the route with Malaysian Airlines in what is termed in the industry a 'code share', said in a statement it had sold tickets to one Austrian and one Italian.
The airline confirmed it had sold seven tickets in all, including one to a Chinese passenger, one Dutch, 2 Ukranian and one Malaysian.
A total of 239 people were on board the flight when it vanished two hours after taking off from Kuala Lumpur. Twelve crew members and 227 passengers, aged two to 79 years, were named on a list of those on board released by the airline.
The Boeing 777-200ER gave air traffic controllers no indication of any problem before vanishing from radar screens.
An air search for survivors was called off on Saturday night and will resume at daylight.
Vietnamese officials said planes had spotted twin oil slicks in the sea and were sending boats to investigate.
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http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1443524/lost-malaysia-airlines-plane-had-clocked-normal-20000-hours-flying-time
Boeing 777 at centre of Malaysia Airlines disappearance had clocked up 'normal' 20,000 hours' flying time
Disappearance shocks experts due to plane's safety record
PUBLISHED : Saturday, 08 March, 2014, 2:09pm
UPDATED : Sunday, 09 March, 2014, 12:07pm
The Boeing 777 is considered one of the safest aircraft in the skies, with barely a blemish on its 19-year safety record, a fact that has only deepened the mystery over the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines jet.
The crash landing of an Asiana 777 in San Francisco in July last year was the first fatal incident involving the model; three of the 309 people on board died.
The Malaysia Airlines 777-200ER jet had been operating for 12 years and had logged 20,000 hours in the air, a record experts say is typical for a plane of that age.
The Post spoke to Hong Kong pilots with decades of experience behind them, all of whom were extremely surprised by yesterday’s events, especially given the model involved, and the reputation of the airline.
This aerial photo shows the wreckage of the Asiana Flight 214 airplane after it crashed at the San Francisco International Airport in San Francisco. Photo: AP
“The 777 is the safest airlines in the skies right now,” said one captain with more than two decades’ experience, adding that “it’s a remarkably safe and reliable aircraft”.
Malaysia Airlines has a strong reputation, the pilot added. Its fleet of planes would be well-maintained.
Before last year’s crash, the 1,000 777 jets in service worldwide had been involved in only one major incident. The came in January 2008, when a British Airways jet landed about 300 metres short of the at London’s Heathrow Airport.
Airlines like the plane because it is capable of flying extremely long distances thanks to two giant engines. Each engine is so massive that a row of at least five economy-class seats could fit inside it.
By having just two engines, the plane burns through less fuel than four-engine jets, like the Boeing 747, which it has essentially replaced.
The 777 was the first twin-engine plane to be immediately certified to fly over the ocean as far as 180 minutes from any emergency landing airport. Government safety regulators have determined that it could fly for nearly three hours on a single engine in the case of an emergency.
Such government approval has enabled airlines to fly routes such as New York to Hong Kong non-stop on the 777.
In addition to its ability to fly long distances and hold a large number of passengers, airlines like the 777 because they can fill its long belly with lots of profitable cargo.
According to data from CAPA Centre for Aviation, the average age of Malaysia Airlines’ 15 Boeing 777-200ER planes is 14.3 years.
The average age of its entire fleet of 93 aircraft is four-and-a-half years.
Malaysia Airlines did have an incident in August 2005 involving a 777 flying from Perth, Australia, to Kuala Lumpur. While flying 11,000 metres above the Indian Ocean, the plane’s software incorrectly measured speed and acceleration, causing it to suddenly ascend 900 metres.
The pilot disengaged the autopilot and descended and landed safely back in Perth. A software update was quickly made on planes around the world.
“We’re closely monitoring reports on Malaysia flight MH370,” Boeing said in a statement. “Our thoughts are with everyone on board.”
This article appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition as Boeing 777 is a jet renowned for safety, efficiency
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@thomasfullerNYT 26m
Malaysia defense minister says FBI & other foreign agencies joining MH370 probe because of possible involvement of “international network”
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Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 could not just "disappear", a Chinese military radar expert said yesterday, and asked whether Vietnamese authorities were withholding crucial information or if staff had "neglected their duty".
Something is off.
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Something is off.
Yes........ what was going on when the Vietnamese could not raise them and asked the passing pilot to make contact and the pilot got a weird connection.
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Interesting coincidence??? Two of the other China Southern Airlines tickets were sold to Ukrainians …
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“Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27)”
Isn't 27 really young to be a co-pilot on a tripple 7?
BTW
Fariq’s brother, Afiq is a chemical engineering student, from Universiti Teknologi
Petronas….
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4 with stolen passports. 'international network'
LIVE: Terrorism fears mount in Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 probe | Asian Correspondent
http://asiancorrespondent.com/120373/live-search-continues-for-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/ (http://asiancorrespondent.com/120373/live-search-continues-for-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/)
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Latest press conference starting -
here is the link
http://english.astroawani.com/videos/live
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http://english.astroawani.com/news/show/plane-may-have-made-air-turn-back-counter-terrorism-units-activated-31527
Plane may have made 'air turn back', counter terrorism units activated
Astro Awani | Updated: March 09, 2014
KUALA LUMPUR: Acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein in a press conference at 11.30am on Sunday said that there is a possibility that the missing MH370 aircraft made an 'air turn back' (the return of an aircraft to air port origin as a result of suspected malfunction).
He confirmed the search and rescue area has been extended to wider areas.
He also confirmed media reports on the discovery of an oil slick in the Vietnamese waters but no debris were found.
‘Vietnamese aircrafts are on the site right now to verify what exactly is on the surface of the waters,’ said Hishammuddin adding that Singapore, China, United States, Philippines and Indonesia teams are on their way to the respective search sites to assist in the efforts.
Singapore has also deployed three vessels to aid in search and rescue. Hishamuddin added that no Malaysian submarines will be deployed as they are not 'equipped for search and rescue'.
‘Intelligence agencies, counter terrorism units activated’
On the speculation that ‘stolen passports’ were used by passengers on the flight, he said that Malaysian authorities are working closely with international intelligence agencies and counter terrorism units.
‘Our own intelligence agencies have been activated. The CTIs (counter-terrorism intelligence) and CTUs (counter terrorism unit) from all relevant countries have been informed,’ adding that he has met adding that he has met with officers from the Federal Bureau Investigation (FBI), who have arrived in Malaysia.
When asked on reports that four people on the passenger’s manifest list used ‘wrong passports’, he said they are ‘investigating the whole manifest list of passengers on board’.
Story first published on: March 09, 2014 12:31 (MYT)
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“Captain Zaharie (Ahmad Shah, 53,) or Fariq (Abdul Hamid, 27)”
Isn't 27 really young to be a co-pilot on a tripple 7?
BTW
Fariq’s brother, Afiq is a chemical engineering student, from Universiti Teknologi
Petronas….
In the US, yes. With most US airlines, the 777 is the flagship so pilots are in their 50s and 60s and copilots are in their 30s-40s (seniority) as flying the 777 pays much better than flying a 737.
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Australia today @auTODAY 3m
Media update live .@MAS flight #MH370 16:05 AEDT Official confirm: Flight records 'indicate' missing plane DID turn-back towards Malaysia
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Australia today @auTODAY 2m
Media update live .@MAS flight #MH370 16:05 AEDT Official WOULD-NOT confirm how far the flight went after its 'turn-back' towards Malaysia
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Australia today @auTODAY 15s
.@MAS flight #MH370 16:20 AEDT MALAYSIAN MILITARY: RADAR INDICATED MISSING FLIGHT 'TURNED-BACK' BEFORE DISAPPEARING HT @mpoppel src REU
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Australia today @auTODAY 9m
Media update live - 16:05 AEDT A LAND-SEARCH is now included as a combined armada of 40 ships and 22 planes search #SouthChinaSea #MH370
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ustralia today @auTODAY 13m
Media update live - 16:05 AEDT A massive combined international fleet is searching the South China Sea for the missing @MAS flight #MH370
Expand
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Australia today @auTODAY 16m
Media update live - 16:05 AEDT Reporter asks: "How can a 777 turn off all comms devices?" Officials could not answer this question #MH370
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Australia today @auTODAY 16m
Media update live - 16:05 AEDT Reporter asks: "How can a 777 turn off all comms devices?" Officials could not answer this question #MH370
Even a full electrical failure (engines, APU, and the RAT aka Ram Air Turbine) would not have disabled the radios. Emergency batteries allow the crew to continue to talk to ATC and it runs the transponder.
To disable everything at once is impossible short of destroying the aircraft.
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Flight 370 – these are possible scenarios
by Ivor Soans 11 mins ago
It's clear now that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, a Boeing 777-200ER, hasn't landed on some remote strip and hope is all but lost. While most of the flight's route was overland, it seems to have gone down in the South China Sea at what should be the safest point in the flight--when it should have been at cruising speed on autopilot at 35,000 feet. While we can only speculate on what happened at this point of time, what does seem clear is that whatever happened was very sudden and catastrophic, leaving no time for the crew to react or even send a mayday call.
Typically, this would most likely be a sudden structural failure that breaks the aircraft up. The Boeing 777 has also been a safe aircraft, with only two crashes till date and none with all lives lost. On 17 January 2008 British Airways Flight 38, also a 777-200ER, from Beijing to London crashed just short of the runway at Heathrow but there were no fatalities. Ice in fuel was determined as the cause of the crash, which restricted fuel flow to the engines. The engine maker Rolls Royce, made a modification to prevent this problem from reoccurring and it's certain that the Malaysian 777 would have been fitted with the modification years ago. And then on July 6 last year Asiana Airlines Flight 214 from Incheon, South Korea to San Francisco crashed on final approach to San Francisco, killing 3, making it the first Boeing 777 crash with fatalities since the aircraft model entered service in 1995. While Flight 214 was also a Boeing 777-200ER, pilot error was the cause of the crash.
However, while the South Korean Asiana Airlines has a spotty safety record, that's not true for either British Airways or Malaysian Airlines. The experienced British Airways pilots of BA 38 were credited with managing to get the aircraft down without fatalities despite the loss of the airframe. The crew of Malaysian flight MH 370 seemed equally capable. The 53-year old pilot was a veteran with more than 18,000 flying hours since 1981, while the 27-year old first officer had about 2,800 hours of experience since 2007. And though the first officer was transitioning to the Boeing 777, he had undergone several months of training.
A few weeks earlier, on February 19, CNN's Richard Quest was in a cockpit with him (and possibly the same captain, claims Quest) on a flight between Hong Kong to Kuala Lumpur as part of a story for CNN's Business Traveller show. Quest claims the co-pilot made a textbook-perfect landing. And since he was transitioning to the Boeing 777, the captain in command would have been a training captain as indeed the captain of MH 370 was, says Quest.
Weather is unlikely to have played a role too. Modern aircraft can handle very bad weather. Eleven years ago, I was on a Singapore Airlines Boeing 777 on a flight to Shanghai when we hit terrible turbulence a few hours after takeoff. Sitting next to the wing and seeing them quite literally flap, I thought for more than a moment that they'd break off. The pilot came on air to calm everyone down as the aircraft bounced around, but while me and others were praying and holding tight for dear life, such experiences are not uncommon and aircraft and pilots of the calibre of those flying MH 370 would be capable of handling very bad weather.
When Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to Paris went down over the Atlantic on 1 June 2009, resulting in 228 deaths, bad weather was a factor, but it didn't cause the crash. The experienced captain handed over to the two co-pilots--the Airbus 330 carried 3 pilots on the 10.5 hour flight--for his rest break and minutes later the aircraft hit a thunderstorm. Unfortunately, a speed sensor called a pitot tube malfunctioned thanks to ice at the high altitude they were at, and the pilots never realised the extent of the problem and made a series of errors because the on-board computers were getting grossly wrong information from the sensor. The captain returned to the cockpit, but still couldn't prevent the A330 hitting the ocean three minutes later. All sensors on A330s were changed after the crash to ensure a similar issue would not reoccur.
In the case of AF 447, the aircraft also sent a series of electronic messages over a three-minute period from an on-board monitoring system via the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) which gave investigators vital clues on what went wrong fairly quickly after the disaster. Malaysia Airlines may have similar information but this may currently be privy only to the investigators looking into what happened to MH 370. A pilot of a Boeing 777 flying to Tokyo also claims to have established contact with MH 370 after being asked to try by Vietnamese Air Traffic Control though he refused to be named and said the connection was bad and was lost soon.
And while no one is commenting on a terror angle, with the shocking news that an Austrian and an Italian supposedly on board the flight were never on board, but had their passports stolen in South East Asia and someone used their passports to board this flight, no one is ruling it out either. Reports speak of a security failure at Kuala Lumpur since details of the Italian's passport were available on an Interpol database, but Malaysian authorities did not check it and hence the flyer on the stolen Italian passport was allowed to go through unhindered. A bomb might cause a sudden catastrophic structural failure leaving the crew no time to react or send a mayday call.
If this--and this is complete speculation at this stage--is what happened, it might be similar to what happened on 23 June 1985 to Air India Flight 182, a Boeing 747-200 named after Emperor Kanishka where a bomb placed by Sikh separatists blew up the aircraft at 31,000 feet off the Irish coast resulting in a loss of 329 lives. In the case of AI 182 and the 1988 bombing of PanAm 103 over Lockerbie the method used was similar with bags containing explosives and timers used for detonation. No passenger accompanied either bomb because back then airlines would fly with all passenger luggage if a passenger did not board. But now, in case of a no-show at the boarding gate, airlines remove the passenger's luggage, which means that anyone with similar intentions would have to be a suicide bomber. And since the traditional image we have of suicide bombers is with big vests laden with bombs, we often assume they would not get through airport security (even at airports with lax security), but small wearable bombs like shoe and underwear bombs using plastic explosives are increasingly worrying aviation security experts.
Al-Qaeda has made two failed attempts on scheduled passenger flights till date. On 22 December 2001, Richard Reid tried to set off a shoe bomb on American Airlines Flight 63 but his amateurish attempt failed thanks to alert co-passengers and crew who noticed smoke as he tried to set off the bomb. And on Christmas day in 2009, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a Nigerian citizen concealed plastic explosives in his underwear and tried to blow up Northwest Airlines Flight 253 but just like Reid failed to detonate the explosives properly, partially burnt himself, and was overpowered by co-passengers and crew.
In fact, a few weeks ago, US authorities issued an alert warning about shoe bombs, which came on the heels of another warning to airlines with direct flights to Russia that explosives hidden in toothpaste tubes could be used.
And while there is absolutely no evidence now that anything of the sort has happened, if a wearable bomb carried by suicide bombers was indeed behind MH 370 going down, expect all hell to break loose and airport security getting far tighter than you ever thought possible.
And finally, now that the aircraft is fairly certain to have gone down over the ocean, how soon till the wreckage is found? There are no easy answers here, especially since no beacons seem to be emitting signals and the last known location of the flight is not completely clear.
AF 447's wreckage with 104 more bodies was discovered nearly two years later after four massive search missions, involving everything from full ocean depth autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) to French nuclear submarines. Thousands of square kilometres of sea floor were scanned. And while the South China Sea isn't as deep as the Atlantic, finding the wreckage may not be easy if the flight recorders which are fitted with water-activated acoustic underwater locator beacons or 'pingers' are not found soon since these beacons remain active only for around 30 days or so. Besides, the South China Sea is region with many maritime disputes. While all navies (Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines, China, Singapore and the US Navy) are now co-operating in the search, weeks or months later, the bonhomie may not last in the face of the constant disputes in a volatile area.
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At this point, only three things make sense.
Bomb
Hijacking
Massive structural failure not due to one of the above
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AUSTIN, Texas -- An Austin, Texas, technology company says 20 of its employees were aboard the Malaysia Airlines plane that went missing over the South China Sea.
Jacey Zuniga, a spokeswoman for Freescale Semiconductor, says 12 Malaysian and 8 Chinese employees are "confirmed passengers." She says no American citizen Freescale employees were on the flight.
"At present, we are solely focused on our employees and their families," Gregg Lowe, president and CEO of Freescale says in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers are with those affected by this tragic event." The company, the statement reads, has assembled a team of counselors for those impacted by the tragedy.
Flight MH370, a Boeing 777 airplane, was last seen on radar at 1:30 a.m. (1730 GMT Friday) above the waters where the South China sea.
http://blog.al.com/wire/2014/03/20_employees_of_freescale_semi.html
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How sure are people that this is really debris from an aircraft? From this aircraft?
I seriously doubt it is. The search aircraft, who would be at a lower altitude, would have seen it.
Also, the region is often blanketed with fishing boats. Some people say that flying over it at night and looking down, it looks like a star lit sky there are so many boats down there, each one with a lantern on.
This could be a very large cluster of fishing boats.
Also, if the first two pictures were taken at the location the aircraft was according to the third, it was well outside the area where MH370 would be.
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To what end would someone intentionally do this? I am incapable of understanding it.
To 'punish' infidels. To instil fear. To damage economies. To "...make a difference".
It's not personal. They hate everybody.
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It comes down to the mechanics servicing the planes really.
There's no such thing as a minor emergency at 35,000 ft.
I can pull over to the side of the road and step out of a car.....
That has always been my reason as well.
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KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - Military radar indicates that the missing Boeing 777 jet may have turned back before vanishing
"We are trying to make sense of this," he told a media conference. "The military radar indicated that the aircraft may have made a turn back and in some parts, this was corroborated by civilian radar."
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/09/air-force-chief-malaysia-jet-may-have-turned-back/20845957/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/09/air-force-chief-malaysia-jet-may-have-turned-back/20845957/)
Is it me, or is it odd that they did not know this within hours after the crash/disappearance? Even if the civilian and military did not corroborate this until now... The civilian aspect of this had to know this nearly immediately and it seems common to report this in past cases immediately. But it *seems* they did not let it be known until after it comes out that FOUR had stolen passports?
As well as, is it in any way possible that the plane was blown into smithereens leaving not a trace behind?
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Is it me, or is it odd that they did not know this within hours after the crash/disappearance? Even if the civilian and military did not corroborate this until now... The civilian aspect of this had to know this nearly immediately and it seems common to report this in past cases immediately. But it *seems* they did not let it be known until after it comes out that FOUR had stolen passports?
As well as, is it in any way possible that the plane was blown into smithereens leaving not a trace behind?
There is always a delay in when the media reports something. Once it was realized that the aircraft was missing, they would have started checking radar tapes at once.
And no, short of a nuke, there is no way to completely destroy an aircraft the size of a 777-200. And a nuke would have been detected by numerous satellites and the flash would have been visible for hundreds of miles.
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Vietnam says it may have found missing jet's door
Mar 9th 2014 6:06AM
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - Vietnamese authorities searching waters for the missing Boeing 777 jetliner spotted an object Sunday that they suspected was one of the plane's doors, as international intelligence agencies joined the investigation into two passengers who boarded the aircraft with stolen passports.
More than a day and half after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 went missing, no confirmed debris from the plane had been found, and the final minutes before it disappeared remained a mystery. The plane, which was carrying 239 people, lost contact with ground controllers somewhere between Malaysia and Vietnam after leaving Kuala Lumpur early Saturday morning for Beijing.
The state-run Thanh Nien newspaper cited Lt. Gen. Vo Van Tuan, deputy chief of staff of Vietnam's army, as saying searchers in a low-flying plane had spotted an object suspected of being a door from the missing jet. It was found in waters about 90 kilometers (56 miles) south of Tho Chu island, in the same area where oil slicks were spotted Saturday.
"From this object, hopefully (we) will find the missing plane," Tuan said. Thanh Nien said two ships from the maritime police were heading to the site.
The missing plane apparently fell from the sky at cruising altitude in fine weather, and the pilots were either unable or had no time to send a distress signal - unusual circumstances under which a modern jetliner operated by a professional airline would crash.
Malaysia's air force chief, Rodzali Daud, said radar indicated that the plane may have turned back, but did not give further details on which direction it went or how far it veered off course.
"We are trying to make sense of this," Daud said at a news conference. "The military radar indicated that the aircraft may have made a turn back, and in some parts this was corroborated by civilian radar."
Malaysia Airlines Chief Executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said pilots are supposed to inform the airline and traffic control authorities if the plane does a U-turn. "From what we have, there was no such distress signal or distress call per se, so we are equally puzzled," he said.
Authorities were checking on the identities of the two passengers who boarded the plane with stolen passports. On Saturday, the foreign ministries in Italy and Austria said the names of two citizens listed on the flight's manifest matched the names on two passports reported stolen in Thailand.
"I can confirm that we have the visuals of these two people on CCTV," Malaysian Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a news conference late Sunday, adding that the footage was being examined. "We have intelligence agencies, both local and international, on board."
Hishammuddin declined to give further details, saying it may jeopardize the investigation.
"Our focus now is to find the aircraft," he said, adding that finding the plane would make it easier for authorities to investigate any possible foul play.
Interpol confirmed that at least two stolen passports used by passengers on the plane were registered in its databases. It said no one had checked the databases, but added that most airlines and countries do not usually check for stolen passports.
Hishammuddin said only two passengers had used stolen passports, and that earlier reports that the identities of two others were under investigation were not true.
White House Deputy National Security Adviser Tony Blinken said the U.S. was looking into the stolen passports, but that investigators had reached no conclusions.
In addition to the plane's sudden disappearance, which experts say is consistent with a possible onboard explosion, the stolen passports have strengthened concerns about terrorism as a possible cause. Al-Qaida militants have used similar tactics to try and disguise their identities.
Still, other possible causes would seem just as likely at this stage, including a catastrophic failure of the plane's engines, extreme turbulence, or pilot error or even suicide. Establishing what happened with any certainty will need data from flight recorders and a detailed examination of any debris, something that will take months if not years.
European authorities on Saturday confirmed the names and nationalities of the two stolen passports: One was an Italian-issued document bearing the name Luigi Maraldi, the other Austrian under the name Christian Kozel. Police in Thailand said Maraldi's passport was stolen on the island of Phuket last July.
A telephone operator on a China-based KLM hotline on Sunday confirmed that "Maraldi" and "Kozel" were both booked to leave Beijing on a KLM flight to Amsterdam on March 8. Maraldi was then to fly to Copenhagen, Denmark, on KLM on March 8, and Kozel to Frankfurt, Germany, on March 8.
She said since the pair booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines, she had no information on where they bought them.
Having onward reservations to Europe from Beijing would have meant the pair, as holders of EU passports, would not have needed visas for China.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/09/air-force-chief-malaysia-jet-may-have-turned-back/20845957/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/09/air-force-chief-malaysia-jet-may-have-turned-back/20845957/)
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Mid-air disintegration
"The fact that we are unable to find any debris so far appears to indicate that the aircraft is likely to have disintegrated at around 35,000 feet," said the source, who is involved in the preliminary investigations in Malaysia.
If the plane had plunged intact from such a height, breaking up only on impact with the water, search teams would have expected to find a fairly concentrated pattern of debris, said the source, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the investigation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/09/us-exclusive-probe-plane-idUSBREA280FF20140309 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/09/us-exclusive-probe-plane-idUSBREA280FF20140309)
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Call me crazy, but an "entire" plane doesn't just dissentigrate in flight unless a bomb blew it up.... yes doors have been known to fall off, the top of the Hawaiian plane blew off, but an entire only 11-year-old plane just poof -- nope, not buying it,.
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Call me crazy, but an "entire" plane doesn't just dissentigrate in flight unless a bomb blew it up.... yes doors have been known to fall off, the top of the Hawaiian plane blew off, but an entire only 11-year-old plane just poof -- nope, not buying it,.
If there were multiple suicide bombers on board, it could. Sitting in preplanned sections and a coordinated detonation.
....of course, we can't dismiss the possibility of an alien abduction by a mothership. [/s]
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Call me crazy, but an "entire" plane doesn't just dissentigrate in flight unless a bomb blew it up.... yes doors have been known to fall off, the top of the Hawaiian plane blew off, but an entire only 11-year-old plane just poof -- nope, not buying it,.
I will bet the American FBI got there and the DOJ directed them. So the pansy PC Americans are directing them on the 'proper way' to not say it was blown to smithereenes.
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If there were multiple suicide bombers on board, it could. Sitting in preplanned sections and a coordinated detonation.
....of course, we can't dismiss the possibility of an alien abduction by a mothership. [/s]
Yes, and that is from bombs, not sudden and total structrual failure at 35,000 feet. In fact I buy the shoe bomb scenario in this incident - especially with recent events in China and warnings of shoe bombers in Asia. Also - this is reaching way back pre-911, but the people involved in the bombing in Oklahoma City learned the techniques in Asia (Indonesia if memory serves me right) and they were planing on blowing up planes in mid-air before they decided to fly them into the WTC and Pentagon instead.
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If there were multiple suicide bombers on board, it could. Sitting in preplanned sections and a coordinated detonation.
....of course, we can't dismiss the possibility of an alien abduction by a mothership. [/s]
The mother ship sucked them up her bottom and are now retrieving their passports because they need them to visit ValJar soon.
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Call me crazy, but an "entire" plane doesn't just dissentigrate in flight unless a bomb blew it up.... yes doors have been known to fall off, the top of the Hawaiian plane blew off, but an entire only 11-year-old plane just poof -- nope, not buying it,.
It could happen depending on what part failed. If the wing box broke apart, the aircraft would disintegrate nearly instantly, although that is the one part which usually survives everything short of full speed, nose down impacts. This is why the safest place to sit is directly over the wings.
And a cargo door opening in flight could tear an aircraft apart or at least completely disable the flight controls resulting in an almost instant loss of control and quickly a full nose down attitude.
As for Aloha 243, it was at a much lower altitude and speed than MH370 would have been. Also, what tore away from 243 was nothing but skin. The main structure is underneath and remained mostly intact which allowed the aircraft to survive.
With Pan Am 103, if the aircraft had been at a lower altitude and speed, it likely would have survived the explosion. The damage to the fuselage coupled with the slipstream is what tore the aircraft apart.
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If there were multiple suicide bombers on board, it could. Sitting in preplanned sections and a coordinated detonation.
One bomb in the right place is all it would take, depending on how powerful the explosive is and how much they're using.
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One bomb in the right place is all it would take, depending on how powerful the explosive is and how much they're using.
TWA 800 which exploded adjacent Long Island, NY, broke into two pieces.
I realize this jet was traveling much faster and in a thinner atmosphere at 35K feet. An explosion's force would be enhanced.
Just hope that nobody on board had time to realize what happened....and that they lost consciousness immediately.
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TWA 800 which exploded adjacent Long Island, NY, broke into two pieces.
I realize this jet was traveling much faster and in a thinner atmosphere at 35K feet. An explosion's force would be enhanced.
Just hope that nobody on board had time to realize what happened....and that they lost consciousness immediately.
800 was blown out of the air, though.
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Have they found any confirmed wreckage beyond the oil slicks?
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Have they found any confirmed wreckage beyond the oil slicks?
No. There is some reports that something was spotted floating in the area of the oil slicks and they are sending search vessels there. It's around dawn there now so we should start to hear if this is anything of worth or another red herring.
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Please no TWA 800 debate. You do not want to see my reaction when the conspiracy theories start flying.
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Have they found any confirmed wreckage beyond the oil slicks?
No, and even the "oil" slicks are suspect.
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Interesting analysis from BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26506961):
Malaysia Airlines lost contact with flight MH370 for five hours before it confirmed the news. The slow pace of information forced Malaysians to turn to social media first - then ask the authorities to confirm speculation or reports that appeared online.
Among the many questions was how two passengers with fake European passports could have boarded flight MH370.
Over the past four years, I have travelled frequently through the same airport. As a Canadian passport holder I have to scan both index fingers before I enter the country but not when I leave. The biometric system was set up in 2011 to prevent foreigners from repeatedly coming in to work illegally and to curb human trafficking and wildlife smuggling.
Malaysian officials say they are working hard to answer questions. They have reminded people to avoid speculation, but it hasn't reassured distressed family members.
Also reporting (same link):Vietnamese navy planes have spotted what could be fragments from the missing Malaysia Airlines jet that disappeared almost two days ago.
Officials said it was too dark to be certain the objects were from Flight MH370, which had 239 people on board.
A multinational team is searching for wreckage and ships will try to confirm the find after dawn. ...
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Just hope that nobody on board had time to realize what happened....and that they lost consciousness immediately.
The slipstream alone at 35,000 feet can kill if you're suddenly exposed to it without any kind of protective gear. Also, the lack of breathable oxygen at 35,000+ feet would render anyone unconscious very quickly.
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Please no TWA 800 debate. You do not want to see my reaction when the conspiracy theories start flying.
i watched the documentary with the people who were involved in the actual investigation... I suggest watching it.
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i watched the documentary with the people who were involved in the actual investigation... I suggest watching it.
I've seen just about everything on TWA 800. I have seen nothing that makes me believe it was a missile.
Now, I said I will not debate TWA800, because I will get rather... animated, about it.
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I've seen just about everything on TWA 800. I have seen nothing that makes me believe it was a missile.
Now, I said I will not debate TWA800, because I will get rather... animated, about it.
Then watch this......... and tell me you are convinced - this is with the people who were inside the investigation, not reporters.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/silenced/
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Searchers may have found a fragment of window (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-09/suspected-airplane-window-fragment-found-by-vietnam-searchers)
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What is the depth of the water in this area?
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Heaven forbid the WH would admit terrorism even exists........
http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/aviation/200278-wh-too-early-to-blame-terrorism-for-missing-plane#ixzz2vV2i8gaG
March 09, 2014, 09:25 am
WH: ‘Too early’ to blame terrorism for missing jet
By Keith Laing
White House officials said Sunday that it was “too early” to consider terrorism as a potential cause of a missing flight, despite reports of at least two of the jet’s passengers traveling on stolen passports.
White House Deputy National Security Advisor Tony Blinken said during an appearance on CNN’s “State of the Union” Sunday that it premature to speculate about potential causes of the presumed jet crash.
“It’s too soon to tell what happened, why it happened,” Blinken said. “But what we’ve done is this…we’ve made available the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board and other experts to aid in the investigation to determine what the cause was, but right now it’s just too early to tell what the cause was.”
The flight at issue is a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 that disappeared from air traffic control radars in Vietnam shortly after departing Kuala Lumpur for a flight to Beijing on Friday night. The airplane was carrying 239 passengers and crewmembers, including at least three people that State Department officials have said were American citizens.
Blinken said the White House was concerned about the reports that have emerged about the missing Malyasia Airlines’ flight, including the passport issues, but he said it was still early in the investigation.
“I’ve seen these reports about the passports and we’re looking into that, but we don’t have anything to confirm yet,” he said.
“The reports raise questions and concerns, and that’s exactly why we’re looking into them, but right now it would be premature to speculate, we just don’t have the facts yet,” the deputy national security advisor continued.
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What is the depth of the water in this area?
Maximum depth is several hundred feet.
Last thing I will say about it. I've seen the TWA 800 stuff and it has not changed my opinion. Anyone can make a video and cherry pick the facts they want to make a case for their position. The question no one has ever answered is with any amount of proof, "where did the missile come from?" A Stinger/SA-7 likely could not have hit the aircraft, and even if it did, all it would have done is blown off an engine because such SAMs are IR. It would home in to the hottest part of the aircraft, the engines. To fire large missile capable of blowing a 747 apart requires a good sized radar system to lock it onto the target and then fire it. The lack of that, and of a radar track of an unknown, high speed object, is always ignored, discounted, or otherwise explained away with some grandiose conspiracy or double talk.
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Heaven forbid the WH would admit terrorism even exists........
Sure it does. You know how those Duck Dynasty fans can be.
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Notice they didn't say MH370 was "not terrorism" which is standard when it is clearly something else.
Either they don't have a clue, or there is more information that has not been released.
Obama will not be happy if his Muslim brothers blew up an airliner.
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Maximum depth is several hundred feet.
Last thing I will say about it. I've seen the TWA 800 stuff and it has not changed my opinion. Anyone can make a video and cherry pick the facts they want to make a case for their position. The question no one has ever answered is with any amount of proof, "where did the missile come from?" A Stinger/SA-7 likely could not have hit the aircraft, and even if it did, all it would have done is blown off an engine because such SAMs are IR. It would home in to the hottest part of the aircraft, the engines. To fire large missile capable of blowing a 747 apart requires a good sized radar system to lock it onto the target and then fire it. The lack of that, and of a radar track of an unknown, high speed object, is always ignored, discounted, or otherwise explained away with some grandiose conspiracy or double talk.
Watch the video. The men in this video worked for the NTSB and were in the room examining the wreckage and were kicked out by people sent over by the WH and returned to find wreckage had been moved and re-labeled to fit the WH scenario. Like I said. Watch the documentary - these were not World Nut Daily people who participated. These are some of the people who retired because of the investigation. Remember, Sandy Burger was involved in this.
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If it is only a couple of hundred feet deep it should be easy to find major pieces (like the engines) once they locate the site... of course there may be a lot of silt to deal with.
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http://www.headnine.com/world/2014/03/09/stolen-passports-raise-security-concerns_s_83392319.html#.Ux0NlIWAAWc
Interpol: Passports on flights must be checked
3 hours ago·
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Interpol knew about stolen passports that two passengers used to board an ill-fated Malaysia Airlines flight bound for China, but no country checked the police agency's vast database on stolen documents beforehand, it said Sunday.
But there's a good chance that no one's checking whether you're using someone's lost or stolen passport.
It's not known whether stolen passports had anything to do with Saturday's disappearance of the Boeing 777 bound from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, to Beijing with 239 people on board.
and the case points to a little-known threat to security and Interpol hopes national authorities will "learn from the tragedy."
More than 1 billion times last year, travelers boarded planes without their passports being checked against Interpol's database of 40 million stolen or lost travel documents, the Lyon-based police body said.
Interpol Secretary General Ronald K. Noble said in a statement Sunday that it has long asked why countries would "wait for a tragedy to put prudent security measures in place at borders and boarding gates."
Interpol has made warning about the issue for years, and just last month it bemoaned that "only a handful of countries" regularly use its stolen or lost travel documents database of records from 167 countries.
For example, the database was searched more than 800 million times last year — but one in eight searches was conducted by United Arab Emirates alone.
Interpol also said it and national investigators were examining other suspicious passports and working to determine the true identities of those who used the stolen passports to board the Malaysia Airlines flight.
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Just reported the latest oil slick found is NOT from the aircraft. There is not mistaking ships crude oil or diesel for the much lighter JP4 or JP5 which is similar to kerosene.
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With no debris field which with an explosion at 35,000 feet would be spread over a wide area, I'm leaning on a take-over of the control of the airplane and it was nosed-dived or what pilots they call augured in to the sea.
The First Officer did have an Islamic name, and should we so easily forget the Cairo-bound EgyptAir flight, which took off from New York in 1999, crashed into the Atlantic south of Massachusetts, killing all 217 passengers and crew. The US National Transportation Safety Board ruled that the crash was caused by co-pilot Gamil el-Batouty. According to reports, he had deliberately crashed the plane.
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With no debris field which with an explosion at 35,000 feet would be spread over a wide area, I'm leaning on a take-over of the control of the airplane and it was nosed-dived or what pilots they call augured in to the sea.
The First Officer did have an Islamic name, and should we so easily forget the Cairo-bound EgyptAir flight, which took off from New York in 1999, crashed into the Atlantic south of Massachusetts, killing all 217 passengers and crew. The US National Transportation Safety Board ruled that the crash was caused by co-pilot Gamil el-Batouty. According to reports, he had deliberately crashed the plane.
would that leave no debris???
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Navy, someone on Fox last night said Boeing is monitoring all these flights along with air traffic control?? is that correct info?
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would that leave no debris???
There would be debris no matter what.
If it broke up at 35,000 feet, it would spread debris all over the place, making it harder to find.
If it was flown off course and then crashed, they would be looking in the wrong place which is why they wouldn't find anything.
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At this point, only three things make sense.
Bomb
Hijacking
Massive structural failure not due to one of the above
If it were highjacking, tho', wouldn't the plane have stayed on radar rather than simply disappearing after a 650 foot drop?
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Maximum depth is several hundred feet.
Last thing I will say about it. I've seen the TWA 800 stuff and it has not changed my opinion. Anyone can make a video and cherry pick the facts they want to make a case for their position. The question no one has ever answered is with any amount of proof, "where did the missile come from?" A Stinger/SA-7 likely could not have hit the aircraft, and even if it did, all it would have done is blown off an engine because such SAMs are IR. It would home in to the hottest part of the aircraft, the engines. To fire large missile capable of blowing a 747 apart requires a good sized radar system to lock it onto the target and then fire it. The lack of that, and of a radar track of an unknown, high speed object, is always ignored, discounted, or otherwise explained away with some grandiose conspiracy or double talk.
very good points.
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If it were highjacking, tho', wouldn't the plane have stayed on radar rather than simply disappearing after a 650 foot drop?
Shouldn't have, unless it was thrown into such a violent maneuver that it caused it to break up. However, since the 777 is fly-by-wire, it is very difficult to engage in a maneuver that would overstress the aircraft. The computer system is designed to block such behavior.
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If it were highjacking, tho', wouldn't the plane have stayed on radar rather than simply disappearing after a 650 foot drop?
Not if it were inter-dimensional. :laugh:
I vote the cause as being "rapid disassembling of the aircraft's shell and housing.due to one or more explosions originating from the cabin".
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Shouldn't have, unless it was thrown into such a violent maneuver that it caused it to break up. However, since the 777 is fly-by-wire, it is very difficult to engage in a maneuver that would overstress the aircraft. The computer system is designed to block such behavior.
Suppose an aircraft like this were pointed straight down and the throttles pushed to the limit, would the aircraft "disappear" from radar due to the suddenness of the change in direction and the immense speed it would build up in a fairly short time? Or would radar be able to follow it all the way down until it disappeared behind the horizon?
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Suppose an aircraft like this were pointed straight down and the throttles pushed to the limit, would the aircraft "disappear" from radar due to the suddenness of the change in direction and the immense speed it would build up in a fairly short time? Or would radar be able to follow it all the way down until it disappeared behind the horizon?
No, the radar should still see it. Even if the transponder was turned off the aircraft would still be visible to radar. If the transponder was not switched off, the plane would continue to broadcast it's location until the transponder ceased to function.
All commercial aircraft have a very large radar cross section. They're mean to be seen on radar, both for ATC, and to help other aircraft avoid running into them.
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No, the radar should still see it. Even if the transponder was turned off the aircraft would still be visible to radar. If the transponder was not switched off, the plane would continue to broadcast it's location until the transponder ceased to function.
All commercial aircraft have a very large radar cross section. They're mean to be seen on radar, both for ATC, and to help other aircraft avoid running into them.
Do the black boxes have their own transponders, and if so, how strong a signal do they emit?
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Do the black boxes have their own transponders, and if so, how strong a signal do they emit?
They have a locator beacon for finding them underwater. Since sound travels very well underwater, it would be very easy to pickup with the right equipment. I would imagine the warships in the area are listening for them. I'm surprised someone hasn't dispatched an attack sub to the area to listen for them. That is what the French did to look for the data recorders from Air France 447. Unfortunately those were in the bottom of a canyon which blocked the signal so they were not found until much later.
The batteries in the data recorders are good for 30 days.
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They are supposed to ping for 30 days - but didn't the Air France boxes ping for a lot longer than 30 days? and they were at 10,000 feet deep.
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They are supposed to ping for 30 days - but didn't the Air France boxes ping for a lot longer than 30 days? and they were at 10,000 feet deep.
No one knows how long the batteries lasted. Both were found 2 years later.
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@ColorMeRed 5m
#Malaysia aviation chief says FAA and NTSB have arrived to assist in Flight #MH370 investigation via @passantino
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@ColorMeRed 4m
Hijack not ruled out in disappearance of #MalaysiaAirlines flight #MH370, Malaysia civil aviation dept chief tells news conference -BBC
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They have a locator beacon for finding them underwater. Since sound travels very well underwater, it would be very easy to pickup with the right equipment. I would imagine the warships in the area are listening for them. I'm surprised someone hasn't dispatched an attack sub to the area to listen for them. That is what the French did to look for the data recorders from Air France 447. Unfortunately those were in the bottom of a canyon which blocked the signal so they were not found until much later.
The batteries in the data recorders are good for 30 days.
Maybe someone has, but they haven't found anything (obviously).
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Sky News Australia @SkyNewsAust 11m
#BREAKING: LIVE CH 601 NOW Authorities: We are waiting to receive reports from a lab about the oil slicks #MalaysiaAirlines
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I've tried to find the exact source, maybe someone could assist, that the human body (or corpse) survives falls from height better than airplane fragments. They may be better off looking for bodies than large debris fields.
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Officials Identify Plane Passenger Who Used Stolen Passport
Two suspects on Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 who used stolen passports had no record of entering Malaysia legally, officials say.
Malaysia’s Inspector General of Police, Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar, said Monday that the identity of one of the two suspects has been confirmed.
“He is not a Malaysian, but I cannot divulge which country he is from yet,” he said.
Two passengers managed to board the ill-fated aircraft using passports reported stolen in Thailand in recent years, booking their tickets at the same time. The passports belonged to Italian and Austrian residents.
Rescue crews are continuing to search for the jetliner, which departed from Kuala Lumpur en route to Beijing with 239 people on board. The plane lost contact with ground controllers Saturday between Malaysia and Vietnam.
Dozens of aircraft and ships have contributed to the search, including crews from Vietnam, China, Singapore, Indonesia, the United States, Thailand, Australia and the Philippines, Malaysia Civil Aviation Chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman said at a Monday press conference.
Malaysia has led coordination efforts in the search for the missing plane. The country’s Transport Minister, Hishammuddin Hussein, said Malaysia has nothing to hide – and denied allegations that China is unhappy with the investigation so far. Hishammuddin said China is sending a delegation to Malaysia to assist in identifying the passengers who held fake passports. Representatives are also helping with intelligence and relatives of the missing passengers.
During a Monday press briefing, a reporter asked Hussein about reports that a media personality received an open letter from the Leader of Chinese Martyr Brigade claiming responsibility for the incident. When asked about the letter, a Malaysian official said, "Yes, there is sound ground to say it is true, but again, we have said from the beginning that we are not taking anything for granted." ...
More from Good Morning America (http://gma.yahoo.com/officials-identify-plane-passenger-used-stolen-passport-103009458--abc-news-topstories.html)
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Chinese group claims plane disappearance amid parallels to Lockerbie (http://nypost.com/2014/03/10/chinese-group-claims-plane-disappearance-amid-parallels-to-lockerbie/New York Post)
By Bob Fredericks and Wires
March 10, 2014 | 8:42am
A shadowy group called the Chinese Martyrs’ Brigade has claimed responsibility for the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 – but officials were skeptical and said the claim could be a hoax.
The group – unheard of before now – on Sunday sent an email to journalists across China that read: “You kill one of our clan, we will kill 100 of you as pay back,” but the message provided no details of what brought the flight down. And Malaysia’s acting Transport Minister, Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein, told reporters at Kuala Lumpur International Airport Monday he doubted the claim’s legitimacy.
“There is no sound or credible grounds to justify their claims,” he said, according to Malaysian news reports.
Other officials said the claim could be a hoax aimed at increasing ethnic tensions between Uighurs and Han Chinese in the wake of the recent knife attack at in the southwestern city of Kunming on March 1 that left 29 people dead and injured about 140 others.
The message was delivered through an encrypted Hushmail anonymous service that is virtually impossible to trace, they said.
Investigators also said Monday that debris spotted from the air that was originally believed to be from the plane turned out to be a large cable spool unconnected to the aircraft. Officials also said that testing showed that an oil slick thought to possibly be from the plane had no connection to the aircraft.
Meanwhile, investigators suspect the vanished Malaysian airliner may have been blown out of the sky — just like the jumbo jet that rained deadly wreckage onto Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988.
A senior official involved in the probe of its disappearance said the evidence so far “appears to indicate that the aircraft is likely to have disintegrated at around 35,000 feet,” Reuters reported.
Asked if that suggested a bomb blew up the Boeing 777, the source said there was no evidence yet of foul play, but noted the closest parallels to the plane’s disappearance early Saturday over the South China Sea were the 1980s bombings of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie and Air India Flight 182 off the coast of Ireland.
Although the source added that the flight, en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, could have broken apart due to mechanical failure, Malaysian officials have not ruled out a hijacking.
Meanwhile, Hussein said authorities have surveillance video of the two passengers who boarded the plane using stolen passports.
One had been identified, officials said, though they refused to release a name or nationality, other than to say he appeared to be Asian.
Malaysian Home Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the other passenger also appeared to be Asian, and blasted the border officials who let them through while carrying passports from Austria and Italy.
“Can’t these immigration officials think? Italian and Austrian [passport holders] but with Asian faces,” Hamidi fumed.
Five booked passengers failed to show up for the flight, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Other troubling details emerged when a telephone operator on a China-based hot line for KLM airlines confirmed Sunday that the passengers traveling with the stolen passports had booked one-way tickets on the same KLM flight from Beijing to Amsterdam on Saturday.
The operator told The Associated Press that they had booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines, but she had no information on where they bought them.
Interpol — which called the use of the stolen passports a “great concern” — said a check of all documents presented by passengers on the ill-fated flight also revealed additional “suspect passports.”
An Interpol spokeswoman couldn’t say how many other passports were being investigated, or what country or countries issued them.
Malaysia’s air-force chief, Rodzali Daud, said radar showed the plane — which carried 239 people — may have turned back toward Kuala Lumpur.
No distress signals from the crew were reported.
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As already posted. They know the nationality of the two confirmed passport thiefs but will not say. Who knows anymore how many?
Mystery of the FIVE passengers who checked in for doomed Malaysia flight but never boarded as search teams say they have no wreckage, no signals and no clues
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html)
Men who used stolen passports not of Asian appearance, investigators say
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2577185/Alive-Helicopters-scrambled-possible-sighting-life-raft-area-missing-Malaysia-flight-disappeared-sea-without-trace.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2577185/Alive-Helicopters-scrambled-possible-sighting-life-raft-area-missing-Malaysia-flight-disappeared-sea-without-trace.html)
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Two men who used stolen passports to board the missing Malaysia Airlines passenger jet have been isolated on surveillance video, officials said today.
The investigation into the disappearance of the jetliner with 239 passengers and crew has centered so far around the fact that two passengers used passports stolen from an Austrian and an Italian. The plane which left Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, was headed for Beijing. Three of the passengers, one adult and two children, were American.
Today Malaysia's Civil Aviation Chief Azaharuddin Abdul Rahman said officials had reviewed surveillance tape of the plane's boarding "from check-in right to departure."
"I can confirm that all security protocols had been complied with," he said.
When asked about the two men who used the stolen passports, Rahman replied, "We confirmed now they are not Asian looking males."
When pressed to describe them, he said indicated that one of the men is black. ...
More at Good Morning America via Yahoo (http://gma.yahoo.com/malaysia-airlines-passenger-stolen-passport-caught-video-122720179--abc-news-topstories.html)
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Two men who used stolen passports to board the missing Malaysia Airlines passenger jet have been isolated on surveillance video, officials said today.
The investigation into the disappearance of the jetliner with 239 passengers and crew has centered so far around the fact that two passengers used passports stolen from an Austrian and an Italian. The plane which left Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, was headed for Beijing. Three of the passengers, one adult and two children, were American.
Today Malaysia's Civil Aviation Chief Azaharuddin Abdul Rahman said officials had reviewed surveillance tape of the plane's boarding "from check-in right to departure."
"I can confirm that all security protocols had been complied with," he said.
When asked about the two men who used the stolen passports, Rahman replied, "We confirmed now they are not Asian looking males."
When pressed to describe them, he said indicated that one of the men is black. ...
More at Good Morning America via Yahoo (http://gma.yahoo.com/malaysia-airlines-passenger-stolen-passport-caught-video-122720179--abc-news-topstories.html)
If he is a mideastern black camel-jockey that sometimes wears what resembles a mom and pop diner tablecloth on his head-terrorist; we will be hearing about an offensive youtube video from Lurch soon.
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Authorities have revealed one of the two men who used stolen passports to board the missing Malaysian Airlines plane looked like Mario Balotelli.
As it emerged an Iranian businessman known only as Mr Ali was understood to have booked the tickets for the two passengers using the stolen passports, the men who boarded the plane were said to have not been of 'Asian appearance'.
Where In The World Is Malaysia Airlines Flight 370? Conspiracy Theorists Take To The Internet | Fast Company | Business + Innovation
http://www.fastcompany.com/3027462/fast-feed/with-malaysia-airlines-flight-370-still-missing-conspiracy-theories-flood-the-inte (http://www.fastcompany.com/3027462/fast-feed/with-malaysia-airlines-flight-370-still-missing-conspiracy-theories-flood-the-inte)
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Oh Lawd... :silly:
Another claims that some relatives of the passengers onboard have even reported hearing their phones ring--but no one is answering.
Other tin foilers have gone so far as to suggest that the plane simply vanished. "If we never find the debris," writes one skeptic, "it means some entirely new, mysterious and powerful force is at work on our planet which can pluck airplanes out of the sky without leaving behind even a shred of evidence."
Another, just as bizarre conspiracy theory suggests terrorists hijacked the plane, and have parked the plane intact in an abandoned hanger to use as "a weapon of mass destruction" in the future:
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Asian as in "Oriental" or Asian as in Pakistani/Iranian/Afghani?
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Sounding more and more like the Bojinka project from pre Oklahoma City era when then terrorists in Indonesia were playing with bomb making to blow planes up at high altitudes over water.
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Published on #1 News Site on the Threat of Islamic Extremism (http://www.clarionproject.org)
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Malaysian Flight: Search Continues, Terrorism Suspected
The sudden mid-flight disintegration of a Malaysian Airlines flight to Beijing appears increasingly likely to have been an act of terrorism. No group has claimed responsibility, but there are two chief suspects: The East Turkestan Islamic Movement and/or Jamaat e-Islami. Both have Al-Qaeda links.
All 239 passengers are thought to have perished in the disappearance of the Boeing 777. Although no firm conclusion has been reached, the most probable cause is an intentional explosion.
There was no distress signal from the pilots, as would happen in the event of a weather emergency, mechanical failure or hijacking. It is believed that the plane exploded at around 35,000 feet in the air. There are no signs of poor weather in the area. Malaysian Airlines has a good reputation and the specific flight was recently examined and cleared of any problems.
The suspected culprits are two passengers who got on board using European passports that were stolen in Thailand up to two years ago. Their tickets were purchased together, $625 apiece in Thai currency. Interpol says it is looking at other “suspect passports,” but the Malaysian Transportation Minister said reports that there were two more suspects are false.
After the passports were reported stolen in 2012 and 2013, Interpol logged them into its international database. It stated that no country accessed its database to check on those specific passports since then, which is how the two passengers were able to enter the aircraft.
If the disappearance was indeed a terrorist attack, it was most likely aimed at China. It was a flight headed towards Beijing, so the operatives understood that the majority of the passengers would be of that nationality. The list of passengers shows that 154 were Chinese or Taiwanese. There were also three Americans, but it is improbable that the perpetrators knew the nationalities of all those onboard.
One of the big questions remaining is whether it is true that the flight turned around. This would suggest that the pilot knew of an emergency, but it is then a mystery why no distress signal was sent.
If the target was China, then the most obvious suspect is the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a Chinese Islamist terrorist group that operates in Pakistan and Xinjiang Province, a Muslim-majority province of western China. Its Turkic population is called Uyghurs and separatists refer to the autonomous province as East Turkestan. It had independence from 1644-1911 and 1944-1949.
The Chinese authorities periodically clash with the Uyghurs. While most are Sufi Muslims and are not considered radical, there are Islamist terrorists among them like ETIM. The group dramatically increased the scope of its violence this year.
On October 28, the first major suicide attack took place in Beijing in Tiananmen Square, when the vehicle collided into a crowd and a gate and then burst into flames. Two tourists died, as did the three inside the vehicle. ETIM didn’t claim responsibility until November 12 but when it did, it said it was a “jihadi operation.” It was claimed under the name of Turkestan Islamic Party (TIP), which is widely thought to be ETIM under another name.
On March 1, a terrorist knife attack in a Kunming train station killed 29 civilians and four terrorists. The Chinese government blames Urghur terrorists and said East Turkestan flags were found at the scene. At least two women were involved, an interesting fact considering that ETIM has released videos of its female
and child recruits. ETIM has not yet claimed responsibility, but Uyghur terrorists have carried out knife attacks before.
The disappearance of the Malaysian Airlines flight comes shortly after TIP published a video of a Uyghur cleric threatening to kill and behead Chinese Buddhists and “cut you piece by piece” and insulting their “small eyes, flat noses.”
“Judgment day will not come, until we attacked them. Judgment day will not come, until we slaughter them. Judgment day will not come, until our war with them and attacking them,” a translation reads.
ETIM/TIP is known to have links to Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Abdul Haq, its leader that was killed in Pakistan in 2010, was a member of Al-Qaeda’s Shura Council. In 2009, a senior Al-Qaeda leader in Pakistan urged Muslims to attack China. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb also threatens to kill Chinese workers in North Africa.
In August, a U.S. drone strike in Pakistan killed four terrorists from Turkmenistan that worked with a Taliban leader in North Waziristan. They are believed to belong to TIP. The State Department says ETIM fights alongside Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and that two members were deported from Kyrgyzstan in 2002 after they tried to bomb the U.S. embassy.
ETIM/TIP is not known to have a network in Thailand that could steal the passports and is not thought to have advanced explosives. If it is responsible, it may have got training and/or equipment from an Al-Qaeda affiliate in the region. Alternatively, an Al-Qaeda affiliate could have perpetrated the attack itself in support of the ETIM cause.
Al-Qaeda has a long history in southeast Asia (including Thailand) and specifically in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where the flight departed from. Top Al-Qaeda leaders met there from January 5-8, 2000 to plan the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen and the 9/11 attacks. Two of the 9/11 hijackers, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, went to Bangkok, Thailand after the meeting.
The best positioned affiliate is Jemahh Islamiya (JI), which as carried out massive bombings before and is known to operate in Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia. It has yet to target or directly threaten China, but its Al-Qaeda colleagues and supervisors have. Orders could have come from above, as Al-Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahiri has held secret calls with over 20 Al-Qaeda operatives at a time to coordinate terrorist campaigns.
JI is best known for the 2002 bombings in Bali, Indonesia that killed over 200 people. It has carried out various other attacks in Indonesia and has targeted Western interests in the Philippines and Singapore, as well. A senior leader was captured in Thailand in 2003. In 1995, he helped oversee a failed plot to blow up 11 American airliners in Asia.
The threat from groups like ETIM should make China reconsider its support for Iran and Hamas. Al-Qaeda leaders allied to ETIM operate from Iran and they all share the same Islamist ideology that inspires violent jihad.
The March 1 knife massacre was framed as “China’s 9/11.” If the disappearance of the Malaysian Airlines flight is the handiwork of ETIM or another Al-Qaeda affiliate, then the commentators spoke too soon.
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A tripple 7 pilot called in to the Hannity Radio program, he said he thinks either a bomb - a LARGE bomb because a small bomb could not blow the 777 out of the sky or in his opinion with no wreckage being found one of the pilots went jihand and dove it into the sea. He said at 650mph straight into the sea the plane and the passengers would basically vaporize and the pieces would be no larger than your fist. He said there would be an oil slick from the fuel on board, but that is pretty much the only thing you would see.
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A tripple 7 pilot called in to the Hannity Radio program, he said he thinks either a bomb - a LARGE bomb because a small bomb could not blow the 777 out of the sky or in his opinion with no wreckage being found one of the pilots went jihand and dove it into the sea. He said at 650mph straight into the sea the plane and the passengers would basically vaporize and the pieces would be no larger than your fist. He said there would be an oil slick from the fuel on board, but that is pretty much the only thing you would see.
The only problem with the straight-into-the-ocean theory is that the plane would have been visible on radar almost all the way down; this one disappeared after dropping only 600 feet or so.
By process of elimination it seems that the only viable alternative is a very large bomb that blew up at the plane's cruising altitude and shattered it so finely that the debris scattered too widely to easily find.
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The only problem with the straight-into-the-ocean theory is that the plane would have been visible on radar almost all the way down; this one disappeared after dropping only 600 feet or so.
By process of elimination it seems that the only viable alternative is a very large bomb that blew up at the plane's cruising altitude and shattered it so finely that the debris scattered too widely to easily find.
I know, the radar part is what keeps nagging at me... the only other possibility is aliens.
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I know, the radar part is what keeps nagging at me... the only other possibility is aliens.
Fair enough, although I think that Occam's Razor would put a big bomb ahead of aliens.
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Fair enough, although I think that Occam's Razor would put a big bomb ahead of aliens.
Then you obviously weren't one of the many thousands who witnessed the Phoenix Lights.
It blacked out the stars in the night sky as it glided overhead....estimates had it at OVER A MILE WIDE!
....not saying it wasn't an explosive on board. Just sayin. :patriot:
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Is there a way to disable the tracking software and hardware on a plane? Maybe there is now.
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The only problem with the straight-into-the-ocean theory is that the plane would have been visible on radar almost all the way down; this one disappeared after dropping only 600 feet or so.
By process of elimination it seems that the only viable alternative is a very large bomb that blew up at the plane's cruising altitude and shattered it so finely that the debris scattered too widely to easily find.
I spoke with a retired (40years+) FAA friend a little while ago about this very thing. He informed me that aircraft in flight are NOT always visible to ATCs on radar. In fact there are large gaps in radar coverage in many air routes and particularly those which fly over large areas of water. That is astonishing to me but the guy I was talking to IS an expert and has participated in the investigation of many aircraft disasters over the years.
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Then you obviously weren't one of the many thousands who witnessed the Phoenix Lights.
It blacked out the stars in the night sky as it glided overhead....estimates had it at OVER A MILE WIDE!
....not saying it wasn't an explosive on board. Just sayin. :patriot:
which ones, the string of flares dropped from the USAF A-10 Warthogs, or the lights from the 5-plane formation that flew overhead?
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Meanwhile the FAA is trying to find a way to blame President George W. Bush for this mishap.
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Merged topics. Please keep all of the MH370 articles on this thread.
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FWIW..
I heard a pilot called Sean Hannity and he said it could be one a few things:
1. A big bomb.. A small bomb would not take down a 777.
2. A Missile
3. One of the pilots went Jihadi..
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which ones, the string of flares dropped from the USAF A-10 Warthogs, or the lights from the 5-plane formation that flew overhead?
Not going to hijack the thread topic...right now.
That said.....you don't want to go there regarding that evening over Phoenix. I've digested countless reams of information and video of witnesses.
People are generally afraid....or lack some other human characteristic/trait when it comes to ignoring the world around them.
....whether it's a Marxist POTUS or UFOs.
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* * *
People are generally afraid....or lack some other human characteristic/trait when it comes to ignoring the world around them.
....whether it's a Marxist POTUS or UFOs.
I quite agree, which is why I have the view I do.
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FWIW..
I heard a pilot called Sean Hannity and he said it could be one a few things:
1. A big bomb.. A small bomb would not take down a 777.
2. A Missile
3. One of the pilots went Jihadi..
A small bomb in the right place would destroy the aircraft. The bomb itself would not do it, but compromise the structure enough so the slipstream tears it apart.
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A small bomb in the right place would destroy the aircraft. The bomb itself would not do it, but compromise the structure enough so the slipstream tears it apart.
But it wouldn't leave pieces no bigger than a human fist....which was the assertion of a perpendicular approach to the water at 650 mph.
Multiple suicide bombers pressing their red buttons simultaneously. That's my best guess.
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A small bomb in the right place would destroy the aircraft. The bomb itself would not do it, but compromise the structure enough so the slipstream tears it apart.
was the piece that came off of Aloha fl. 243 shredded or did it stay generally intact in large chunks?
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was the piece that came off of Aloha fl. 243 shredded or did it stay generally intact in large chunks?
It was flying much lower and slower than MH370.
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It was flying much lower and slower than MH370.
understood; I'm just curious, in particular, I'm curious about how aluminum sheet metal rips. If a bomb were to crack the eggshell, so to speak, and the slipstream started grabbing protruding edges, would it peel off in long strips, like an orange peel, or would it walk its way up and down the surface in a series of jagged doglegs, or would it simply pluck off little pieces one at a time, sort of like picking old peeling paint off of wood with your fingernails.
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A small bomb in the right place would destroy the aircraft. The bomb itself would not do it, but compromise the structure enough so the slipstream tears it apart.
OK...
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understood; I'm just curious, in particular, I'm curious about how aluminum sheet metal rips. If a bomb were to crack the eggshell, so to speak, and the slipstream started grabbing protruding edges, would it peel off in long strips, like an orange peel, or would it walk its way up and down the surface in a series of jagged doglegs, or would it simply pluck off little pieces one at a time, sort of like picking old peeling paint off of wood with your fingernails.
The fuselage isn't one long continual strip of metal. Aircraft are actually put together in sections. So if there is enough damage to cause some of the outer skin to tear away, it will not simply run the entire length of the aircraft. It will likely stop at a joint, which is what happened with Aloha 243.
Unlike in the movies, having a window blow out will not cause a giant piece of the fuselage to tear away. It would take a bigger hole, combined with structural damage, to allow enough of the slipstream in and rip the aircraft apart.
Here is a pretty good video of how they put together a 737. The 777 is done mostly the same way, just on a much larger scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCw5DSPhx4
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Six Important Facts You’re Not Being Told About Lost Malaysia Airlines Flight 370
(http://www.viralnovelty.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/malaysia-airlines-airbus-a330-plane.jpg)
There are some astonishing things you’re not being told about Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, the flight that simply vanished over the Gulf of Thailand with 239 people on board.
The mystery of the flight’s sudden and complete disappearance has even the world’s top air safety authorities baffled. “Air-safety and antiterror authorities on two continents appeared equally stumped about what direction the probe should take,” reports the Wall Street Journal.
• Fact #1: All Boeing 777 commercial jets are equipped with black box recorders that can survive any on-board explosion
No explosion from the plane itself can destroy the black box recorders. They are bomb-proof structures that hold digital recordings of cockpit conversations as well as detailed flight data and control surface data.
• Fact #2: All black box recorders transmit locator signals for at least 30 days after falling into the ocean
Yet the black box from this particular incident hasn’t been detected at all. That’s why investigators are having such trouble finding it. Normally, they only need to “home in” on the black box transmitter signal. But in this case, the absence of a signal means the black box itself — an object designed to survive powerful explosions — has either vanished, malfunctioned or been obliterated by some powerful force beyond the worst fears of aircraft design engineers.
• Fact #3: Many parts of destroyed aircraft are naturally bouyant and will float in water
In past cases of aircraft destroyed over the ocean or crashing into the ocean, debris has always been spotted floating on the surface of the water. That’s because — as you may recall from the safety briefing you’ve learned to ignore — “your seat cushion may be used as a flotation device.”
more at link...
http://www.viralnovelty.com/six-important-facts-youre-told-lost-malaysia-airlines-flight-370/ (http://www.viralnovelty.com/six-important-facts-youre-told-lost-malaysia-airlines-flight-370/)
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According to CNN, our illustrious government is now saying it was "not terrorism" and the people using the stolen passports were just part of a "human smuggling" operation.
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Six Important Facts You’re Not Being Told About Lost Malaysia Airlines Flight 370
(http://www.viralnovelty.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/malaysia-airlines-airbus-a330-plane.jpg)
There are some astonishing things you’re not being told about Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, the flight that simply vanished over the Gulf of Thailand with 239 people on board.
Actually all of that has been mentioned in the media plenty of times.
The author sounds like he is looking for a conspiracy.
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The fuselage isn't one long continual strip of metal. Aircraft are actually put together in sections. So if there is enough damage to cause some of the outer skin to tear away, it will not simply run the entire length of the aircraft. It will likely stop at a joint, which is what happened with Aloha 243.
Unlike in the movies, having a window blow out will not cause a giant piece of the fuselage to tear away. It would take a bigger hole, combined with structural damage, to allow enough of the slipstream in and rip the aircraft apart.
Here is a pretty good video of how they put together a 737. The 777 is done mostly the same way, just on a much larger scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCw5DSPhx4
just as background, I did two years of engineering in undergrad. however, it seems to me that even a single section would still be a fairly large piece of material, so if it simply pulled away in large sections at the joints, there would be bigger rather than smaller fragments remaining. What would it take to shred an individual section?
Also, we're talking about the exterior, but that, by itself, is metal and would tend to sink if not attached to something bouyant. So perhaps the question might be: what would break aparty and disperse the bouyant innards of an aircraft widely enough that it would make a debris field very hard to find?
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With satellites that carry cameras that can read the newspaper over your shoulder...and that was 20 years ago....there's no reason why black boxes are still not located.
Located....not recovered.
GPS technology we use is remedial tech when it comes to black boxes today.
It's a fair question without being labeled a conspiracy.....if they haven't located them yet, why not?
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Also, we're talking about the exterior, but that, by itself, is metal and would tend to sink if not attached to something bouyant. So perhaps the question might be: what would break aparty and disperse the bouyant innards of an aircraft widely enough that it would make a debris field very hard to find?
Anything not firmly attached inside the aircraft upon an explosive decompression would be ejected from the aircraft. Some things like lavatory doors could be ripped off (those would probably float) and some if not all of the overhead bins would open as well with their contents going flying. Anyone not strapped in tightly could also be ejected out of the aircraft. Aloha 243 lost a flight attendant that way as she was in the aisle right in the section with broke away.
You would have to completely breakup the aircraft for things like seats, parts of the galleys, main cabin doors, etc. to fall free and then float.
Edit: Something else that would be very easy to spot from the air, the on board life rafts and escape slides. They would float, inflated or not, and IIRC, some models of life rafts will auto inflate when submerged in water. Most if not all modern aircraft life rafts carry an emergency beacon which is also automatically activated upon inflation.
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With satellites that carry cameras that can read the newspaper over your shoulder...and that was 20 years ago....there's no reason why black boxes are still not located.
Located....not recovered.
GPS technology we use is remedial tech when it comes to black boxes today.
It's a fair question without being labeled a conspiracy.....if they haven't located them yet, why not?
The data recorders do not have a GPS locator. They have an locator beacon which pings so it can be found underwater.
If the pinging has not been heard, it means one of three things.
- The recorders are not in the water (meaning it crashed on land)
- They were destroyed (which would be the first instance of modern data recorders being destroyed in a crash)
- The aircraft did not crash thus nothing to find
After this, a GPS locator might be added to future models, but that will be up to the FAA.
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Woulda, coulda, mighta, shoulda, oughta......still nothing but rampant speculation with absolutely nothing to support it.
For all we know the dumb bastards flying the plane opened a fuel dump on climbout and emptied the tanks. Again, these are the world's worst trained pilots who have more time flying the autopilot than the aircraft.
There are three things to do in an airborne emergency: Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. The first of those three involves actually flying your aircraft and that means you have to be intimately familiar with it. If all you can do in a real emergency is flip through computer screens looking for the right checklist then you and your passengers are doomed.
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The data recorders do not have a GPS locator. They have an locator beacon which pings so it can be found underwater.
If the pinging has not been heard, it means one of three things.
- The recorders are not in the water (meaning it crashed on land)
- They were destroyed (which would be the first instance of modern data recorders being destroyed in a crash)
- The aircraft did not crash thus nothing to find
After this, a GPS locator might be added to future models, but that will be up to the FAA.
if the boxes fell into a deep, narrow crevasse wouldn't the pinging be hard to pick up as well?
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Woulda, coulda, mighta, shoulda, oughta......still nothing but rampant speculation with absolutely nothing to support it.
For all we know the dumb bastards flying the plane opened a fuel dump on climbout and emptied the tanks. Again, these are the world's worst trained pilots who have more time flying the autopilot than the aircraft.
There are three things to do in an airborne emergency: Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. The first of those three involves actually flying your aircraft and that means you have to be intimately familiar with it. If all you can do in a real emergency is flip through computer screens looking for the right checklist then you and your passengers are doomed.
Turning on the fuel dump system will result in the aircraft screaming @ you that you're dumping fuel. Also, it will not empty the tanks. It will automatically shut off at a certain level and cannot be overridden.
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if the boxes fell into a deep, narrow crevasse wouldn't the pinging be hard to pick up as well?
That's exactly what happened to the recorders from Air France 447 and why it took 2 years to find them.
Not sure what the topography of the area is, but at this point, no one has a clue where it crash, or even if it crashed.
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Woulda, coulda, mighta, shoulda, oughta......still nothing but rampant speculation with absolutely nothing to support it.
For all we know the dumb bastards flying the plane opened a fuel dump on climbout and emptied the tanks. Again, these are the world's worst trained pilots who have more time flying the autopilot than the aircraft.
There are three things to do in an airborne emergency: Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. The first of those three involves actually flying your aircraft and that means you have to be intimately familiar with it. If all you can do in a real emergency is flip through computer screens looking for the right checklist then you and your passengers are doomed.
that still doesn't explain why the plane dropped off the radar.
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that still doesn't explain why the plane dropped off the radar.
They are not, I repeat NOT, always visible to ATC radar! There are large areas, mostly over oceans, where there is NO radar coverage at all!
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They are not, I repeat NOT, always visible to ATC radar! There are large areas, mostly over oceans, where there is NO radar coverage at all!
They weren't over the ocean.
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I spoke with a retired (40years+) FAA friend a little while ago about this very thing. He informed me that aircraft in flight are NOT always visible to ATCs on radar. In fact there are large gaps in radar coverage in many air routes and particularly those which fly over large areas of water. That is astonishing to me but the guy I was talking to IS an expert and has participated in the investigation of many aircraft disasters over the years.
From what I read over the weekend they were also in a handoff situation one control to another and they were having communications issues to the point they had a nearby flight on the way to Japan contact the plane...
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They weren't over the ocean.
Oh really! What do they call that body of water they are searching then?
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It all sounds crazy because they are not releasing all of the information. A youtube video caused this.
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http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/03/10/real-time-flight-trackers-seek-missing-malaysian-air-flight-370-find-only-holes/
Real-time flight trackers seek missing Malaysian Air flight 370, find only holes
Published March 10, 2014
FoxNews.com
Flightradar24 tracks Malaysia Air flight 370
(http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/Flight%20Aware%20Malaysia%20Air%20flight%20370.jpg)
March 8, 2014: Real-time flight tracker flightradar24 offers some information on Malaysian Airlines flight 370 -- but not enough to help guide rescue workers. (flightradar24)
Several online flight-tracking services can locate airplanes in real-time, using GPS navigation data transmitted from the aircraft themselves. But in the case of Malaysia Airlines flight 370, which disappeared from radar screens more than 48 hours ago, a hole in coverage maps means even these sites lack answers.
“We lost tracking for it pretty early on,” a spokesman for FlightAware told FoxNews.com.
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, a Boeing 777 with 239 people on board, departed Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia on March 8 at 12:43 a.m. local time en route to Beijing, China, according to FlightAware, which published a minute-by-minute tracking log of the flight. The plane was at 35,000 feet at 1:01 a.m. Saturday morning.
One minute later, the site’s data ends.
“Government regulations prohibit live flight-tracking in the area,” the company explained. “Quickly after take-off, it was outside our coverage range and we had no live position.”
FlightRadar24, another real-time flight tracking app, immediately sought to analyze its data following the plane’s disappearance. The site appears to have slightly more data, tracking flight 370 for another 15 or so minutes. Yet it, too, could not track the plane completely.
“Between [1:19 a.m. and 1:20 a.m. Malaysian time] the aircraft was changing heading from 25 to 40 degrees, which is probably completely according to flight plan as MH370 on both 4 March and 8 March did the same at the same position,” explains a post on the company’s Facebook page. “Last two signals are both showing that the aircraft is heading in direction 40 degrees.”
Then the company lost track of the plane. It did not receive any emergency “squawk” alerts.
That data comes from the ADS-B transponder on the plane -- the so called black box -- which transmits a plane’s location twice per second. Roughly 60 percent of all passenger aircraft are equipped with transponders that beam out such data, the company said.
Flightradar 24 claims to have a network of more than 3,000 ADS-B receivers around the world that receive pings from planes. But even so, locating aircraft can be a challenge.
“Due to the high frequency used (1090-MHz) the coverage from each receiver is limited to about 150-250 miles in all directions depending on location,” the company explains. “The farther away from the receiver an aircraft is flying, the higher it must fly to be covered by the receiver. The distance limit makes it very hard to get ADS-B coverage over oceans.”
Officials investigating the disappearance of the flight have been targeting the South China Sea, where oil slicks were spotted by rescue crews but ultimately determined not to belong to the aircraft.
More than 48 hours after the plane disappeared from radar screens, a multinational search team of dozens of ships and aircraft had failed to find any sign of the plane.
“The amount of water – the distance between Vietnam and Malaysia is probably the size of the state of Pennsylvania, so there really is quite a bit of water that needs to be investigated,” Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and former air traffic controller, said Monday on “Fox & Friends.”
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One-way tickets and were paid for with cash and only a few hours before the flight.
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One-way tickets and were paid for with cash and only a few hours before the flight.
The story now is they were Iranians trying to escape from oppression and just wanted to get to Europe. (They had continuing flights to Holland and Germany.)
Even if this turns out to be true, they should have never been allowed on the aircraft.
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There are several websites which are using satellite images taken after the crash to try and find anything.
I'll have to try and find the links to the others, but this is the one I saw post a little while ago on an aviation forum.
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/12866
Probably won't help, but it can't hurt either.
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Oh really! What do they call that body of water they are searching then?
Oh, I dunno, maybe ...
the GULF of Thailand, or
the STRAITS of Malacca, or
coastal areas of the South China SEA.
(all three are listed as being part of the search effort so far as I know).
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The story now is they were Iranians trying to escape from oppression and just wanted to get to Europe. (They had continuing flights to Holland and Germany.)
Even if this turns out to be true, they should have never been allowed on the aircraft.
Seems to me that a one-hop one-way ticket might be more of a red flag than a one-way trip with several intermediate steps, so someone not intending to continue on might still have purchased a multi-stop ticket if they were trying to avoid discovery.
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CNN JUST IN -- "Large solid debris" sighted in sea by Cathay Pacific Airways pilots
Hong Kong Civil Aviation Dept stresses there is no proof yet that this debris is related to the missing Malaysian airline.
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CNN JUST IN -- "Large solid debris" sighted in sea by Cathay Pacific Airways pilots
Hong Kong Civil Aviation Dept stresses there is no proof yet that this debris is related to the missing Malaysian airline.
If this is the same debris report from yesterday, it has already been checked and discounted.
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http://us.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/asia/malaysia-plane-scenarios/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
What happened to Flight 370? Four scenarios fuel speculation among experts
By Thom Patterson, CNN
updated 3:23 PM EDT, Mon March 10, 2014
(CNN) -- A Boeing 777, one of the world's most reliable types of airliners, is missing, and no one knows why. Was it a bomb? Mechanical failure? A hijacking gone awry? Pilots and others in the aviation community are deeply disturbed by the mystery surrounding Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
It disappeared Saturday en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing over the Gulf of Thailand, somewhere between Malaysia and Vietnam. It's hard to believe that such huge questions remain three days after the Boeing 777-200ER went missing, carrying 227 passengers and 12 crew members. These questions are so unprecedented that experts have been carefully speculating about possible explanations.
Here are four scenarios they're talking about, and the related facts:
1. Scenario: Bomb? Or 'dry run'?
Is missing jet part of a bigger plot?
Search underway for missing Flight 370
Authorities 'puzzled' by missing flight
Search area for missing plane widens
Fact: Two stolen passports have been linked to people who held tickets for the flight.
Analysis: This points to the possibility that someone on a terrorism watch list may have boarded the plane and blown it up. However, the stolen passports don't necessarily mean the plane was an actual target. It's possible, says former U.S. Department of Transportation Inspector General Mary Schiavo, that terrorists may have been performing a "dry run" for a future attack. Or, Schiavo said, "it could be just criminal business as usual," because "there are lots of stolen passports" used by travelers around the world.
Fact: So far, no debris field of plane wreckage has been linked to the 777, which would indicate a bomb blast.
Analysis: When Robert Francis, former vice chairman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, heard about the missing plane, his immediate thought was: "For some reason the aircraft blew up and there was no signal, there was nothing." The fact that the plane disappeared from radar without warning indicated to Francis "there was something unprecedented that hasn't happened before."
What about satellite technology? Is it possible that data from orbiting satellites might show a flash or infrared heat signature from an explosion? Very unlikely, says satellite expert Brian Weeden, who spent years tracking space junk in orbit for the U.S. Air Force. Dozens of government and private satellites orbit the earth, looking down from distances from 300 kilometers to 1,500 kilometers (185 to 930 miles). It's a long shot that one of them coincidentally floated over at the exact right time and location to capture a flash from an explosion.
However, there's an "off chance," Weeden says, that a super secret U.S. government satellite orbiting 22,000 miles in space might have grabbed evidence. These satellites are in geosynchronous orbit. As a group, they can observe virtually the entire globe. "We know that their mission is to detect ballistic missile launches via heat," says Weeden, now a technical adviser for Secure World Foundation. "We don't know if they're sensitive enough to track something like a bomb blast, even if that's what happened."
Then there's another unanswerable question: Would the government hesitate to release such an image for fear of revealing the satellite system's ultraclassified capability?
2. Scenario: Hijacking?
Fact: Before it disappeared, radar data indicated the plane may have turned around to head back to Kuala Lumpur. Is that a clue that a hijacker had ordered the plane to change course?
Analysis: So far, there have been no reports that the flight crew sent any signals that a hijacking had occurred.
3. Scenario: Mechanical failure?
Map: Kuala Lumpur and BeijingMap: Kuala Lumpur and Beijing
Fact: The absence of a debris field suggests the possibility that pilots were forced to ditch the plane and it landed on water without breaking up, finally sinking to the ocean floor.
Analysis: But if that were the case, then why no emergency signal? These planes are able to perform a "miracle on the Hudson" maneuver. They have the ability to glide more than 100 miles and belly land on the water with both engines out, says former 777 pilot Keith Wolzinger, now a civil aviation consultant with The Spectrum Group. During the time it would take for a plane to glide 100 miles, it seems likely that pilots would be able able to send an SOS.
Fact: The missing plane had suffered a clipped wing tip in the past, but Boeing repaired it, and the jet was safe to fly, said Malaysia Airlines CEO Ahmad Jauhari Yahya on Sunday.
Analysis: "Anytime there's been previous damage to an airplane, even though it's been repaired, and repaired within standards ... it kind of sends a warning flag," says Wolzinger. Experts agree the Boeing 777 is one of the world's most reliable aircraft. During its development it was subject to some of the most rigorous testing in commercial aviation history. "I've been talking with colleagues," Wolzinger says. "We're all baffled by this." The 777 boasts some of the most powerful and well-tested engines in the world, he says. "The reliability of airliner engines in general is impeccable these days," he says. "This is a safe plane."
4. Scenario: Pilot error
Fact: So far, there are no known indications that pilot error contributed to the aircraft going missing.
Analysis: Some aviation experts have compared Flight 370 to the crash of Air France Flight 447 in 2009. All 228 passengers and crew died when the plane went down in a storm in the Atlantic en route from Brazil to Paris. After an expensive, nearly two-year search across the deep ocean floor, the twin-engine Airbus A330's wreckage was finally found and the voice and data recorders recovered. A French investigation blamed flight crew for failing to understand "they were in a stall situation and therefore never undertook any recovery maneuvers." But unlike Flight 447, weather was reported as good along Flight 370's scheduled route and didn't appear to present a threat.
Asiana Airlines Flight 217 -- a Boeing 777 -- fell short during a runway approach last July at San Francisco International Airport. Three people were killed and more than 180 others hurt. National Transportation Safety Board investigators have focused on pilot reliance on automated flight systems as a possible contributor to the crash, but a final report has not yet been released.
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If this is the same debris report from yesterday, it has already been checked and discounted.
This is from today...
They are 14 hours ahead of California time which makes it daylight there so we are likely to only start hearing search reports late at night our time.
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This is from today...
They are 14 hours ahead of California time which makes it daylight there so we are likely to only start hearing search reports late at night our time.
Yesterday there was the exact same report, almost word for word. I just don't trust anything the US media says about aviation. They are wrong so often I trust them more on politics than aviation.
On the aviation forums I follow, the report is being dismissed as a repeat of yesterday.
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The Associated Press @AP 10m
BREAKING: Malaysia Airlines says west coast of country now the focus of search for missing plane.
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The assumption is the plane is gone. There is no proof it no longer exists. There are quite a few places in that part on that part of the globe where a plane could be hidden.
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Iranian asylum-seekers used stolen passports on Malaysia Airlines flight
(http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/550x266xScreen-Shot-2014-03-11-at-9.15.59-AM-550x266.png.pagespeed.ic.61S3Z7bHX7.png)
Interpol said Tuesday that the two passengers who used stolen passports to board a Malaysia Airlines flight that disappeared early Saturday morning were Iranians seeking asylum in Europe.
Interpol Secretary General Ronald K. Noble identified the men as Pouri Nourmohammadi, 19, and Delavar Seyedmohammaderza, 29. Noble said that the two men had traveled to Malaysia from Tehran using Iranian passports, but had secured stolen Italian and Austrian passports in Kuala Lumpur for their journey to Beijing and Amsterdam, for which both had tickets and planned to travel together.
Malaysian authorities said that Nourmohammadi planned to proceed from Amsterdam to Frankfurt, Germany, where his mother lives. The woman contacted authorities when her son failed to arrive as planned. The BBC reported that Seyedmohammaderza's intended final destination was Copenhagen, Denmark.
The disclosure by Interpol confirmed a report aired late Monday by the BBC's Persian service, which cited a friend of both men who hosted them at his home in Kuala Lumpur as they prepared to travel to Beijing, the final destination of the missing plane.
Over the weekend, the passports were identified as belonging to 30-year-old Austrian Christian Kozel and 37-year-old Italian Luigi Maraldi. Both men had reported that their passports had been stolen while they were traveling in Thailand.
It was not made immediately clear how the passports were sent from Thailand to Kuala Lumpur.
Sources told Fox News it is not uncommon for Iranians to travel to and from Malaysia, or to buy one-way tickets through third parties. They said the fact that the man believed to have purchased the tickets on behalf of two Iranians traveling with stolen passports seemed to be seeking the cheapest fares within a range of dates does not jibe with typical terrorism plots. The sources familiar with Iranian travel patterns also said use of stolen passports is common for those involved in the drug trade, those wanting to study or work abroad and even Iranians who seek political, religious or social refuge.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/11/iranians-reportedly-used-stolen-passports-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-were/ (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/11/iranians-reportedly-used-stolen-passports-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-were/)
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Federal Register | Special Conditions: Boeing Model 777-200, -300, and -300ER Series Airplanes; Aircraft Electronic System Security Protection From Unauthorized...
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/11/18/2013-27343/special-conditions-boeing-model-777-200--300-and--300er-series-airplanes-aircraft-electronic-system (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2013/11/18/2013-27343/special-conditions-boeing-model-777-200--300-and--300er-series-airplanes-aircraft-electronic-system)
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The Berita Harian newspaper was the first to report this development, quoting the Royal Air Force Malaysia (RMAF) chief General Tan Sri Rodzali Daud as saying they tracked the signal to Pulau Perak on the country's west coast.
"The last time the plane could be traced by an air control tower was near Pulau Perak, which is on the Straits of Malacca at 2.40am.
"After that, the signal from the plane was lost," he said.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9Q8zPytM4Gw/Ux8yJk5Rp5I/AAAAAAAAYvE/XjF44S0S3Tg/s1440/20140308.jpg)
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http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/malaysian-officials-non-committal-on-mh370-acars-transmissions-396857/
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This entire event has been one big cluster on the part of the Malaysians from the start.
Also, going to sticky this topic.
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If that's really the course the plane took - with that sharp left turn - it sure does look like hijacking or something like it was part of the equation.
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Large debris field found in the waters of Vietnam.
http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20140311/100836.shtml
Supposedly images were posted on Twitter. I'm trying to find those now.
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If that's really the course the plane took - with that sharp left turn - it sure does look like hijacking or something like it was part of the equation.
Wasn't Aceh in the news in the past year or so?
Yes, it was actually in last month when it went to full Sharia.
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Large debris field found in the waters of Vietnam.
http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20140311/100836.shtml
Supposedly images were posted on Twitter. I'm trying to find those now.
This has been reported for the past two days. It has already been investigated and found to be unrelated to MH370..
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Large debris field found in the waters of Vietnam.
http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20140311/100836.shtml
Supposedly images were posted on Twitter. I'm trying to find those now.
AB I posted the pics here Sunday evening if you look back on this thread you will see them.. the supposition is trash fro, Ho Chi Min City (ugh)...
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They are convinved someone shut off the transponders and if they did then this was someone who knew a lot about the plane........ reports now it was tracked over a small island in the Indian Ocean flying very low before it totally disappeared.
The question now is Malaysia has known this info for days and allowed them to search in the wrong area for days
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They are convinved someone shut off the transponders and if they did then this was someone who knew a lot about the plane........ reports now it was tracked over a small island in the Indian Ocean flying very low before it totally disappeared.
The question now is Malaysia has known this info for days and allowed them to search in the wrong area for days
where are those reports coming from?
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where are those reports coming from?
FAA officials interviewed on Fox News.
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FAA officials interviewed on Fox News.
interesting. did they say why they thought that?
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interesting. did they say why they thought that?
It's all very technical (technical names for the different electronics on the planes), but the bottom line was pretty much what Atomic Cow has said the last few days - they can't just shut this stuff off, so someone had a lot of knowledge to turn everything off. Also the fact the Malasians knew the plane more than made a left turn, that it turned and flew straight over the Malaian pennisula to the Indian Ocean where the last sign of it was over a small island, They know (also) it was flying low at the time.
Megyn kelly is discussing it again right now - they are wondering if hackers could have turned the electronics off.
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The plane contains a "self-contained" avionics on a totally separate network, but this plane had avionics that were hooked into the TV's, etc., on the plane -- which SHOULD be physically separated but on this plane they were not separated.
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Pilot thinks they turned around because something was wrong or going wrong with the airplane and they eventually just went down....... and that is why they turned back toward the airport they departed and didn't make it, ditching into the sea (just not the sea where they have been looking until now)
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A severe enough electrical failure (not power failure, but complete failure of the on board electronics), or perhaps a fire in the avionics bay, could knock out nearly everything on board the aircraft. While very unlikely, it is possible. And for the record, the 777 does not use the same batteries as the 787, the ones the media loves to talk about all the time.
The pilots would still have some basic control, enough to fly and attempt to land, but not much beyond that. They would have to fly literally "by the seat of their pants."
One possibility I've heard suggested is a pressurization failure leading to incapacitation of everyone on board. Remember Payne Stewart? Same thing happened to Helios Airways Flight 522 which was a 737-300.
But yes, to disable all the communications (transponder, data links, on board phones, etc.) would take someone with knowledge of the aircraft's systems.
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A severe enough electrical failure (not power failure, but complete failure of the on board electronics), or perhaps a fire in the avionics bay, could knock out nearly everything on board the aircraft. While very unlikely, it is possible. And for the record, the 777 does not use the same batteries as the 787, the ones the media loves to talk about all the time.
The pilots would still have some basic control, enough to fly and attempt to land, but not much beyond that. They would have to fly literally "by the seat of their pants."
One possibility I've heard suggested is a pressurization failure leading to incapacitation of everyone on board. Remember Payne Stewart? Same thing happened to Helios Airways Flight 522 which was a 737-300.
But yes, to disable all the communications (transponder, data links, on board phones, etc.) would take someone with knowledge of the aircraft's systems.
My retired FAA friend and I were exploring this very possibility today and the likely hood that IF such a thing occurred they would be reduced to trying to find their way back over water at night with only a magnetic compass to aid their navigation.
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This whole thing is downright crazy. The one expert guy said they were looking in the wrong general area and they have the capabilities to find the general area.
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My retired FAA friend and I were exploring this very possibility today and the likely hood that IF such a thing occurred they would be reduced to trying to find their way back over water at night with only a magnetic compass to aid their navigation.
A pilot who started flying in 1981 would be far more of a "stick and rudder" man than younger pilots who grew up in the age of these fully automated jetliners.
I would think if anyone could land a plane under those conditions, someone like this pilot could do it if the only failure was electrical and not structural.
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This whole thing is downright crazy. The one expert guy said they were looking in the wrong general area and they have the capabilities to find the general area.
One good way would be to send up a couple of U-2s. They can survey a massive area in a short time, and can operate well above all commercial aircraft and the search planes.
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One good way would be to send up a couple of U-2s. They can survey a massive area in a short time, and can operate well above all commercial aircraft and the search planes.
I wonder if we have any boomers in the area that could possibly pick up wreckage underwater with sonar?
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I wonder if we have any boomers in the area that could possibly pick up wreckage underwater with sonar?
Probably not any SSBNs, those stay out in deep water. An attack sub would be more than enough.
The French tried that with Air France 447, but the data recorders were down in the bottom of a canyon which masked the locator beacons.
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/11/9-odd-facts-Malaysian-Flight
9 Odd Facts About Malaysian Flight MH370
by Ben Shapiro 11 Mar 2014, 6:38 AM PDT
With the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, the world holds its collective breath. Where is the plane? What happened to its 239 passengers? Was this terrorism? Mechanical failure? Or something else entirely?
The flight simply vanished sometime late Friday night or early Saturday morning during its route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. There were no reports of turbulence or rough weather, and its last known position had the plane flying at 35,000 feet. According to air traffic controllers in Vietnam, the plane ended contact approximately 120 nautical miles east of Kota Bharu, although it’s possible the plane attempted to turn around before crashing.
Conspiracy theories abound, of course. Whenever a mystery of this magnitude breaks onto the public scene, the temptation to turn an event into an X Files-style investigation goes viral. Here, then, is what we know – the nine weirdest facts associated with this tragically missing flight:
The Plane Probably Sank in Shallow Waters. According to Bloomberg News, the plane “seems most likely to have gone down [in waters] about 50 meters (165 feet) deep.” So why hasn’t it been found? The black boxes have almost undoubtedly survived, and microphones can pick up the automatic pinging that follows on black boxes sinking beneath the water.
The Plane Would Have Been Tracked. According to safety expert Paul Hayes, “One assumes that Malaysian air-defense radars would be watching approaches to their airspace, and they need to be asked to have a look.” The plane did not check in with Vietnamese authorites when it exited Malaysian airspace. The plane also has emergency locator devices aboard, which should have activated upon the plane breaking up.
The Debris Should Have Been Found. It’s certainly odd that no debris from the plane has been found. Hayes says that if the airplane had fallen apart while flying, there would be a huge debris field easy enough to spot. But it’s missing. Reports of a floating door being spotted have been thrown out as inaccurate.
There Were Apparently Iranian Illegals On Board. The BBC has now reported that there were two Iranians on the Malaysia Airlines flight – and that they bought fake passports for purposes of illegal immigration to Europe. More specifically, the two wanted to enter Germany and Denmark, respectively. The two actual passports belonged to 30-year-old Austrian Christian Kozel and 37-year-old Italian Luigi Maraldi. Many observers have speculated that perhaps the two illegally-traveling Iranians may have had terror connections. So far, there has been no evidence that they wanted to do anything illegal other than immigration. The man who booked the tickets for the two men, Kazem Ali, is now being sought by authorities. According to Malaysian civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, one of the men who boarded the plane illegally looked like soccer player Mario Balotelli. Balotelli is black.
Some Passengers Didn’t Get On The Plane. Five passengers who were booked for the flight did not get on the plane. Their luggage was removed beforehand, even though they checked in. The Malaysian government is investigating.
The Chinese Are Pissed. While there are 45 ships and 22 aircraft ranging from Chinese to American searching for the flight, the Chinese government is enraged with Malaysia; that’s because two-thirds of the people aboard the flight were Chinese nationals. The Chinese-run Global Times ran an editorial on Monday stating, “The Malaysian side cannot shirk its responsibilities. The initial response from Malaysia was not swift enough.”
It Could Have Something to Do With Terrorism. Or Drugs. China says that the plane disappearance could be related to terrorism: “The fact that some of the passengers on board were travelling with false passports should serve as a reminder to the whole world that security can never be too tight, at airports in particular, since terrorism, the evil of the world, is still trying to stain human civilisation with the blood of innocent lives.” So far, no terrorist group has claimed credit for the plane going down. Some outlets have speculated that “the passports have been used multiple times after theft by drug smugglers on the same route.”
There Are Conflicting Reports on the Shape of the Aircraft. The aircraft collided with another aircraft while on the ground in 2012 and broke off a wingtip. Nonetheless, the plane was signed off on 10 days ago, according to CEO of Malaysia Airlines subsidiary Firefly Airlines Ignatius Ong. Both pilots were experienced and have flown for the airline for years.
Relatives Say Passenger Cellphones Are Still Online. Relatives have been saying they can call passenger cellphones, which are still online; they say that accounts are still showing up on the Chinese instant messenger service QQ.
So, where is the plane? At this point, it’s anybody’s guess. But as the facts continue to pile up, the case becomes more mysterious, not less.
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if it did turn around, and if it did fall to Earth without breaking up, even though it dropped off radar at almost 7 miles up, is it possible it crashed into the Vietnamese jungle?
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Some Passengers Didn’t Get On The Plane. Five passengers who were booked for the flight did not get on the plane. Their luggage was removed beforehand, even though they checked in. The Malaysian government is investigating.
That's actually not uncommon. Removing their bags was the proper security procedure.
If they didn't board, they likely weren't involved in anything nefarious.
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The longest they have gone without locating a downed plane was ten days - we are "only" at day four so who knows.....
I am starting to think the plane was trying to return to the airport and crashed.
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(http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/xd528bd7a1.jpg)
Surprised no one has hit this yet.
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Oil rig worker says he thinks he saw plane go down (http://nypost.com/2014/03/12/flight-mh370s-last-words-revealed/):
.... The updates came as an oil rig worker claimed that he saw a plane go down off the south-east coast of Vietnam.
In an email sent to his employer, the worker describes seeing what he believes to be the missing Boeing 777 burning — in one piece — at high altitude, flying perpendicular to the standard plane routes that cross over the area. ”I believe I saw the Malaysian Airlines plane come down,” the man writes, according to an email obtained and tweeted by ABC News anchor Bob Woodruff. “The timing is right.”
According to Woodruff, Vietnamese officials confirmed they received the email, but found nothing in the water. ...
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If a plane that big hits the water there is exactly zero chance it would leave no debris at all. There is all kind of matter on a commercial jet that floats and it is not possible for a plane to hit the water and not be torn to pieces in the impact. Any impact sufficient to kill the passengers is sufficient to destroy the aircraft, and that means breaking it into a whole bunch of small pieces.
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The story keeps changing. There is something very wrong going on here.
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The story keeps changing. There is something very wrong going on here.
Yeah even a third world country could load up a fleet of Gilligan's and have found the plane by now.
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The story keeps changing. There is something very wrong going on here.
That would be the involvement of the media. It is not unusual to find that nearly all of the initial reports during an incident like this one are not only wrong, but wildly wrong.
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Apparently big planes can, and have, disappeared from time to time without ever being found, or only being found after several years. For example, in 2003 a 727 from out of Luanda, vanished, and was never found. In 1979 a 707 disappeared over the Pacific after leaving Tokyo. In 1990 a 727 that took off from Reykjavik, Iceland, was never found. Even in less strange cases it can take days before a crashed plane is found. in 2007 it took 10 days to find the first wreckage of an Indonesian 737 that crashed near Sulawesi.
This appears to be the largest plane that has ever gone missing for this long, but it doesn't seem to be too far out of line with other planes that have disappeared never to be found.
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Yeah even a third world country could load up a fleet of Gilligan's and have found the plane by now.
Unfortunately that's not always the case.
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Bret Baier just said China spotted three large pieces of what they believe to be part of the plane. He said, "More on this later".
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html)
Satellite looking into missing Malaysia flight detects 'suspected crash area'
By Jethro Mullen and Michael Pearson, CNN
updated 5:15 PM EDT, Wed March 12, 2014
(CNN) -- A Chinese satellite looking into the mysterious disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 "observed a suspected crash area at sea," a Chinese government agency said -- a potentially pivotal lead into what has been a frustrating search for the Boeing 777.
China's State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense announced the discovery, including images of what it said were "three suspected floating objects and their sizes." The objects aren't small at 13 by 18 meters (43 by 59 feet), 14 by 19 meters and 24 by 22 meters.
The images were captured on March 9 -- which was the day after the plane went missing -- but weren't released until Wednesday.
The Chinese agency gave coordinates of 105.63 east longitude, 6.7 north latitude, which would put it in waters northeast of where it took off in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and south of Vietnam.
This isn't the first time authorities have announced they were looking at objects or oil slicks that might be tied to aircraft. Still, it is the latest and comes on the same day that officials, rather than narrowing the search area, more than doubled it from the day earlier to nearly 27,000 square nautical miles (35,000 square miles).
Earlier Wednesday, officials announced they had once again expanded the search area. It now covers nearly 27,000 square nautical miles, more than double the size of the area being searched just a day before.
Such a dramatic expansion at this stage of the investigation is troubling, said CNN aviation expert Richard Quest.
"At this stage in the investigation and search and rescue, I would have expected to see by now a much more defined understanding of what the route was, where the plane was headed and a narrowing of the search consequent upon that," he said on CNN's "New Day."
Indeed, the lack of a clear direction prompted Vietnam to say that it's pulling back on its search efforts until Malaysian authorities come up with better information on where to look for the plane.
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 vanished early Saturday with 239 people on board during a flight between Kuala Lumpur and Beijing.
Phan Quy Tieu, Vietnam's vice minister of transportation, said the information Malaysian officials provided was "insufficient."
"Up until now we only had one meeting with a Malaysian military attache," he said.
For now, Vietnamese teams will stop searching the sea south of Ca Mau province, the southern tip of Vietnam, and shift the focus to areas east of Ca Mau, said Doan Luu, the director of international affairs at the Vietnamese Civil Aviation Authority.
At a news conference Wednesday, Malaysian transportation minister Hishamuddin Bin Hussein defended his government's approach.
"We have been very consistent in the search," he said.
Confusion over flight path
But even figuring out where authorities believe the plane may have gone down has been a difficult and shifting proposition.
In the immediate aftermath of the plane's disappearance, search and rescue efforts were focused on the Gulf of Thailand, along the expected flight path between Malaysia and Vietnam.
Over the weekend, authorities suddenly expanded their search to the other side of the Malay Peninsula, in the Strait of Malacca, where search efforts now seem to be concentrated.
That location is hundreds of miles off the plane's expected flight path.
An explanation appeared to come Tuesday when a senior Malaysian Air Force official told CNN that the Air Force had tracked the plane to a spot near the small island of Palau Perak off Malaysia's west coast in the Straits of Malacca.
The plane's identifying transponder had stopped sending signals, too, said the official, who declined to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
Malaysia's civilian administration appeared to dispute the report, however.
The New York Times quoted a spokesman for the Malaysian prime minister's office as saying Tuesday that military officials had told him there was no evidence the plane had flown back over the Malay Peninsula to the Straits of Malacca.
The Prime Minister's office didn't immediately return calls from CNN seeking comment.
Then, in another shift, Malaysian authorities said at a news conference Wednesday that radar records reviewed in the wake of the plane's disappearance reveal an unidentified aircraft traveling across the Malay Peninsula and some 200 miles into the Straits of Malacca.
However, it wasn't clear whether that radar signal represented Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, Gen. Rodzali Daud, head of the Malaysian Air Force, said at the news conference.
Rodzali said that officials are still "examining and analyzing all possibilities" when it comes to the plane's flight path.
Malaysian officials are asking experts from the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority and National Transportation Safety Board to help them analyze the radar data.
The FAA said Wednesday that it "stands ready to provide any necessary additional support."
The agency has already sent two technical experts and another official to Kuala Lumpur as part of a NTSB investigative team.
No trace
The search zones includes huge swaths of ocean on each side of the Malay Peninsula, as well as land.
Forty-two ships and 39 planes from 12 countries have been searching the sea between the northeast coast of Malaysia and southwest Vietnam, the area where the plane lost contact with air traffic controllers.
But they are also looking off the west coast of the Malay Peninsula, in the Straits of Malacca, and north into the Andaman Sea.
So far, searchers have found no trace of the plane.
What happened leading to the plane's disappearance also remains a mystery. Leading theories include hijacking, an explosion or a catastrophic mechanical failure.
Suggestions that the plane had veered off course and that its identifying transponder was not working raise obvious concerns about a hijacking, analysts tell CNN. But a catastrophic power failure or other problem could also explain the anomalies, analysts say.
In a sign authorities are looking at all options, Kuala Lumpur police told CNN they are searching the home of the airliner's Capt. Zaharie Ahmad Shah.
They were also questioning a man who hosted two Iranians who boarded the flight on stolen passports, the man -- Mohammad Mallaei -- told CNN on Wednesday.
Authorities have previously said they do not believe the men had any connection to terror groups.
Families' frustration
As the vexing search drags on, frustration has grown among friends and family of those who were on board.
"Time is passing by. The priority should be to search for the living," a middle-aged man shouted before breaking into sobs during a meeting with airline officials in Beijing on Tuesday. His son, he said, was one of the passengers aboard the plane.
Other people at the meeting also voiced their frustration at the lack of information.
Most of those on the flight were Chinese, and the Chinese government has urged Malaysia to speed up the pace of its investigation.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak on Wednesday appealed for patience.
"The families involved have to understand that this is something unexpected," Najib said. "The families must understand more efforts have been made with all our capabilities."
video at link
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Good.....about time!
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Bret Baier just said China spotted three large pieces of what they believe to be part of the plane. He said, "More on this later".
Apparently they have satellite images that appear to show something(s) large floating in the water. There's an article here (with pix): http://www.businessinsider.com/reported-chinese-satellite-images-2014-3
Here's some of the pix China has:
(http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5320c8636bb3f7d844d16440-324-473/china%20satellite%20images.jpg)
This image shows the relation of the location of the satellite images to the last known position of the plane:
(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5320d0356bb3f7c25dd16442-850-658/bijmeuncaaegdbl.jpg)
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Apparently they have satellite images that appear to show something(s) large floating in the water. There's an article here (with pix): http://www.businessinsider.com/reported-chinese-satellite-images-2014-3
Here's some of the pix China has:
(http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5320c8636bb3f7d844d16440-324-473/china%20satellite%20images.jpg)
This image shows the relation of the location of the satellite images to the last known position of the plane:
(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5320d0356bb3f7c25dd16442-850-658/bijmeuncaaegdbl.jpg)
would this be the same area where they said it turned around to? Or is it the area of the flight path?
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would this be the same area where they said it turned around to? Or is it the area of the flight path?
That I do not know.
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That I do not know.
It almost looks like the original flight path, not the path they say the plane U turned to.
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That piece of debris was seen to the SE of the flight track.
That said, until they get real eyes on it, there is no way to know what it is. For all they know, it is some piece of junk which some ship tossed overboard.
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That piece of debris was seen to the SE of the flight track.
That said, until they get real eyes on it, there is no way to know what it is. For all they know, it is some piece of junk which some ship tossed overboard.
which way do the dominant currents flow in that area?
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which way do the dominant currents flow in that area?
No clue on that one.
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That piece of debris was seen to the SE of the flight track.
That said, until they get real eyes on it, there is no way to know what it is. For all they know, it is some piece of junk which some ship tossed overboard.
Apparently the objects spotted are fairly large:
The objects aren't small: 13 by 18 meters (43 by 59 feet), 14 by 19 meters (46 by 62 feet) and 24 by 22 meters (79 feet by 72 feet). For reference, the wingspan of an intact Boeing 777-200ER like the one that disappeared is about 61 meters (200 feet) and its overall length is about 64 meters (210 feet).
It's entirely possible that this is unrelated stuff, but it does sound like it might be large, unraveled, chunks of an aircraft.
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Apparently the objects spotted are fairly large:
It's entirely possible that this is unrelated stuff, but it does sound like it might be large, unraveled, chunks of an aircraft.
Or Pee Wee's Playhouse.
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The Malacca Strait is one of the busiest shipping channels in the world - hard to believe a passing ship hasn't spotted something.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDeTxMbqRoP0n1J9Zb2zGyQ4YgYrHoGNzYmxjEiM-NfGDyRWzdIQ)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Malacca Straits is located between Peninsular Malaysia and Sumatra Island. In terms of economic and strategic, the Malacca Straits is one of the most important shipping routes in the world, like Suez or Panama Canal. Malacca Straits is a canal shipping route between the Indian and Pacific Ocean that connects three different countries with the largest number of people in the world: India, Indonesia and China.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(http://a.static.trunity.net/images/229858/788x512/scale/)
(http://www.indopacificimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Lombok_currents_400.jpg)
(http://www.reseau-asie.com/images/editos/edito_110201/edito_110201_carte1_flux_malacca_en_gm.gif)
Malacca Straits tidal model likely to save thousands in bunker costs
A new high-resolution tidal model for the Malacca and Singapore Straits will potentially save ships thousands of dollars in bunker fuel costs. Simulations have shown that transit time savings of between three and 12 per cent can be made depending on vessel type, speed and tidal phase.
The high-resolution (up to 800m) Malacca and Singapore Straits commercial tidal model, developed by applied oceanography specialist Tidetech, is the first of its kind in this region and addresses one of the major needs of the 60,000 ships transiting the these channels annually – that of improved efficiency and reduced emissions.
Tidetech managing director Penny Haire said the global industry drive for improved efficiency in shipping, especially in light of the uptake of slow steaming, meant speed optimisation via the use of accurate tidal models could allow ships to save significant bunkerage.
“By arriving at the optimal time, a ship can benefit from a favourable tide or current through busy, narrow or restricted shipping channels,” Ms Haire said.
“This means a vessel can reduce speed (or maintain slow steaming speeds) and save fuel… and also means the vessel can avoid having to increase speed to counter adverse current.
“We have run a simulation for vessels steaming between 14kt and 22kt and the difference between slowest and fastest times through the Straits’ amounts to a significant difference. This means time and money is saved and emissions reduced.”
The model data is available in up to 10-minute time steps and can be integrated into ECDIS as a layer (or into other bridge systems), supplied within specialised optimisation software or as raw data.
“Our customers need a mixture of data options depending on how they want to use the information… we’re able to adapt to specific customer requirements,” Ms Haire said.
Until now the existing tidal information for the region was limited and based on short-term, single-point observations. Tidetech’s leading team of scientists have access to global bathymetry [depth] data, satellite altimetry information and local observations, which they use to calculate hydrodynamic models using highly-complex equations of motion that govern fluid dynamics.
Tidetech is exhibiting and presenting a seminar at the upcoming Green Ship Technology (GST) conference in Singapore. The talk, titled ‘Beyond Weather Routing: how next generation oceanographic data can improve route optimisation, speed optimisation and reporting’, will focus on the additional efficiencies that can be realised from applying data for ocean currents, tidal streams, sea surface temperatures and wave forecasts to a ship’s route and speed.
“Weather routing is an established tool for shipping… oceanographic data goes beyond this and is a significant resource that will add further percentages to bunker and time savings and to meeting environmental obligations… for all types of commercial vessels.”
The Green Ship Technology conference takes place on 26-27 September, 2012
Click here for more information on Tidetech commercial products
(http://www.tidetech.org/uploads/news_images/sailing/tidetech_malacca_straits_singapore_tidal_model_560.jpg)
(http://www.logisticsmatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tidetech_malacca_2.jpg)
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If its in the Malacca Straits, which seems to be less than likely right now.
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MISSING MH370: Fishermen find life raft near PD
PORT DICKSON: A group of fishermen found a life raft bearing the word “Boarding” 10 nautical miles from Port Dickson town at 12pm yesterday.
One of the fishermen, Azman Mohamad, 40, said they found the badly damaged raft floating and immediately notified the Kuala Linggi Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) in Malacca for assistance to lift the raft as it was very heavy.
"We managed to tie it to our boat as we feared it would sink due to the damages," he said.
When the MMEA boat arrived, the fishermen then handed over the raft into their custody.
However, a Kuala Linggi MMEA spokesman said the raft sunk into the sea while they were trying to bring the raft onboard.
(http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.nst.com.my/w1.nst.com.my/polopoly_fs/1.509224.1394605949!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_454/image.jpg.pagespeed.ce.g7bnUZHMOv.jpg)
????
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(http://www.tidetech.org/uploads/news_images/sailing/tidetech_singapore_online_1.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/11/article-2578094-1C31D0C000000578-539_634x432.jpg)
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/12/article-2579524-1C3C77A000000578-132_634x473.jpg)
Floating: These images from the Chinese satellite dated March 9 appear to show what could be fuel resting on the surface of the South China Sea and were taken in the zone where the three pieces of large debris were recorded.
(http://)
found this at FR from DM
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If its in the Malacca Straits, which seems to be less than likely right now.
Personally I never thought It was in the Malacca Straits ever! The supposed radar tracking of the Malaysian military had their last contact as being over Pulau Perack island there but still at 30,000 ft.
If they kept flying in that direction they would have gone down either over Northern Sumatra or, more likely, in the Indian Ocean.
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That I do not know.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BijpCXxCIAEjUjl.jpg:large)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Dickson
Port Dickson, or PD to locals, is a beach and holiday destination situated about 32 km from Seremban and 90 km from Kuala Lumpur. It is located in the state of Negeri Sembilan in Peninsular Malaysia. It takes just over an hour by car to travel from Kuala Lumpur to Port Dickson along the North-South Expressway.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z187/charlan46/portdickson.png) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/charlan46/media/portdickson.png.html)
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/12/article-2579524-1C3C77A000000578-132_634x473.jpg)
Floating: These images from the Chinese satellite dated March 9 appear to show what could be fuel resting on the surface of the South China Sea and were taken in the zone where the three pieces of large debris were recorded.
(http://)
found this at FR from DM
Fuel would have dispersed by now. All commercial jets use highly refined kerosene which will quickly disperse and if it is released in the air, evaporate. This is why the fuel that is dumped from a jet in an emergency doesn't reach the ground if the aircraft is high enough.
Just like the other oil they found, it is probably bunker oil, which is what ships use.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BijpCXxCIAEjUjl.jpg:large)
That I do know.
I was answering OC that I do not know how the currents are in that region.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Dickson
Port Dickson, or PD to locals, is a beach and holiday destination situated about 32 km from Seremban and 90 km from Kuala Lumpur. It is located in the state of Negeri Sembilan in Peninsular Malaysia. It takes just over an hour by car to travel from Kuala Lumpur to Port Dickson along the North-South Expressway.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z187/charlan46/portdickson.png) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/charlan46/media/portdickson.png.html)
that is on the other coast from where the Chinese satellite found debree right? yes I know debree is spelled wrong
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The diameter of a 777, according to the Boeing tech. specs (http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/777family/pf/pf_300product.page) is about 6.19 meters (20ft, 4in). That would give it a circumference of about 19.45 meters (63ft, 9in).
Both of the smaller pieces would fit within that limit; in fact, considering that one is about 18m on one side and the other about 19m on one side, it's possible - if this is the plane's wreckage - that those sides represent the circumference flattened out. If so, that would mean that the smallest one contains 13m of linear length (along the major axis) and the other 14m, which would represent about 27 meters out of the plane's overall length of 64 meters.
The largest piece doesn't quite fit, but it's still close enough that, factoring in the satellite's margin of error and the likelihood that part of a wing or some other debris was stuck to a piece of the hull, it could also be a chunk of unravelled fuselage. That would add another 22 to 24 meters of length, bringing the total to about 49m to 51m. That leaves about 13m to 15m to account for. Assuming that in a breakup the tail section would most likely sink, taking with it several meters of fuselage length, it is entirely possible that the remaining fuselage length went with the tail. Below is a photo of a Singapore 777 with various lengths annotated:
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/B_Oceander/GBR/boeing-777.png)
The leading edge of the tail starts at approximately 12m or so before the end of the fuselage, so that would account for almost all of the remaining fuselage length.
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That I do know.
I was answering OC that I do not know how the currents are in that region.
:whistle:
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that is on the other coast from where the Chinese satellite found debree right? yes I know debree is spelled wrong
more or less, yes. The location of the possible debris is to the north-east of the landmass on which Kuala Lumpur sits.
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more or less, yes. The location of the possible debris is to the north-east of the landmass on which Kuala Lumpur sits.
thank you
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http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-fishermen-find-life-raft-near-pd-1.509222#ixzz2vnEureUw (http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-fishermen-find-life-raft-near-pd-1.509222#ixzz2vnEureUw)
12 March 2014| last updated at 03:29PM
MISSING MH370: Fishermen find life raft near PD
By SUKHBIR CHEEMA | news@nst.com.my
0 comments
PORT DICKSON: A group of fishermen found a life raft bearing the word “Boarding” 10 nautical miles from Port Dickson town at 12pm yesterday.
One of the fishermen, Azman Mohamad, 40, said they found the badly damaged raft floating and immediately notified the Kuala Linggi Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) in Malacca for assistance to lift the raft as it was very heavy.
"We managed to tie it to our boat as we feared it would sink due to the damages," he said.
When the MMEA boat arrived, the fishermen then handed over the raft into their custody.
However, a Kuala Linggi MMEA spokesman said the raft sunk into the sea while they were trying to bring the raft onboard.
(http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.nst.com.my/w1.nst.com.my/polopoly_fs/1.509224.1394605949!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_454/image.jpg.pagespeed.ce.g7bnUZHMOv.jpg)
12 March 2014| last updated at 03:29PM
MISSING MH370: Fishermen find life raft near PD
By SUKHBIR CHEEMA | news@nst.com.my
PORT DICKSON: A group of fishermen found a life raft bearing the word “Boarding” 10 nautical miles from Port Dickson town at 12pm yesterday.
One of the fishermen, Azman Mohamad, 40, said they found the badly damaged raft floating and immediately notified the Kuala Linggi Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) in Malacca for assistance to lift the raft as it was very heavy.
"We managed to tie it to our boat as we feared it would sink due to the damages," he said.
When the MMEA boat arrived, the fishermen then handed over the raft into their custody.
However, a Kuala Linggi MMEA spokesman said the raft sunk into the sea while they were trying to bring the raft onboard.
The life raft found by a group of fishermen 10 nautical miles from Port Dickson yesterday. Pix by Dzulkeffli Mustapha
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This is what they likely pulled from the water.
(http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-g/boat-blue-water-liferafts-iso-9650-1-49098-3102931.jpg)
Pretty sure that is not a life raft from a 777. The emergency slides double as life rafts, and stored ones are yellow so they're easy to spot. That looks more like one from a ship as the one in the above picture.
Ones on airplane look like this.
(http://www.raftservice.com/aviation/_img/eam-rafts-t-12.jpg)
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That is almost certainly not from the missing airplane as Port Dickson is just to the south of Kuala Lumpur and so the raft would have been found in the wrong body of water.
View Larger Map
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That is almost certainly not from the missing airplane as Port Dickson is just to the south of Kuala Lumpur and so the raft would have been found in the wrong body of water.
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Port+Dickson+Negeri+Sembilan+Malaysia&aq=0&oq=port+dickson+town&sll=40.829539,-73.685724&sspn=0.088454,0.181789&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Port+Dickson,+Negeri+Sembilan,+Malaysia&ll=2.536424,101.806814&spn=7.459189,11.634521&z=7&output=embed"></iframe>
<small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=Port+Dickson+Negeri+Sembilan+Malaysia&aq=0&oq=port+dickson+town&sll=40.829539,-73.685724&sspn=0.088454,0.181789&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Port+Dickson,+Negeri+Sembilan,+Malaysia&ll=2.536424,101.806814&spn=7.459189,11.634521&z=7" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map[/url]</small>
I didn't think so
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MISSING MH370: US satellites found no blast
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-us-satellites-found-no-blast-1.510492
WASHINGTON: US spy satellites detected no sign of a mid-air explosion when a Malaysian airliner lost contact with air traffic controllers, American officials said Wednesday.
The US government in the past has used its satellite network to identify heat signatures linked to exploding aircraft but in this case, nothing was found, according to US officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The absence of evidence of any mid-air explosion has added to the mystery surrounding the fate of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, which disappeared at about 1730 GMT Friday after taking off from Kuala Lumpur bound for Beijing.
NBC News first reported the lack of satellite results.
With no specific area identified by satellites, US naval ships that joined the search effort in the South China Sea were not sent to a particular location to look for debris, officials said.
“If they had picked up something (by satellite), our ships would have been sent to that spot,” one official told AFP.
The hunt for the missing Boeing 777 now covers a vast area of nearly 27,000 nautical miles (over 90,000 square kilometres).
I just post you decide
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MISSING MH370: US satellites found no blast
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-us-satellites-found-no-blast-1.510492
I just post you decide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMM72G5k48 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMM72G5k48)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
:whistle:
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FAA issued an airwothiness directive on the 777-200
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/faa-warned-cracking-corrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591
FAA Warned of 'Cracking and Corrosion' Problem on Boeing 777s
By Alastair Jamieson
A cracking and corrosion problem on Boeing 777s that could lead to the mid-air break-up of the aircraft prompted a warning from air safety regulators weeks before the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, federal records show.
The Federal Aviation Administration ordered checks on hundreds of U.S.-registered 777s after reports of cracking in the fuselage skin underneath a satellite antenna.
In an airworthiness directive, it said the extra checks were needed “to detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin, which could lead to rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane.”
The directive, first drawn up in September, was approved in February and was due to take effect on April 9.
It warned that one operator of the jet “reported a 16-inch crack” in the skin of the fuselage on an airplane that was 14 years old with approximately 14,000 total flight cycles.”
The missing Malaysia Airlines jet, registration 9M-MRO, was 12 years old and had completed 7,525 cycles, the airline said.
It was not immediately clear if the airline had already begun to implement the extra checks as part of its maintenance routine. The airline said the missing aircraft was serviced on February 23, with further maintenance scheduled for June 19.
An earlier draft of the directive said that the operator that first reported the 16-inch crack “inspected 42 other airplanes that are between 6 and 16 years old and found some local corrosion, but no other cracking.”
Airworthiness directives are commonplace, similar to car recalls. In the majority of cases, airlines are told to look for faults during maintenance. Orders that require the grounding of an entire fleet of aircraft are rare.
The FAA directive on cracks applies to all Boeing 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER, and -777F series airplanes. The missing jet is a 777-2H6/ER.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0dFzy0yD7c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0dFzy0yD7c)
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MISSING MH370: US satellites found no blast
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-us-satellites-found-no-blast-1.510492
I just post you decide
the trouble is, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Also, the article talks about using satellites to pick up on heat signatures - which necessarily requires that the aircraft be exploding, not just breaking up. In this case, if this plane suffered a catastrophic failure due to the concerns raised by the airworthiness directive Rap just posted, there most likely wouldn't have been any sort of explosion at all when the aircraft broke apart.
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FAA issued an airwothiness directive on the 777-200
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/faa-warned-cracking-corrosion-problem-boeing-777s-n50591
FAA Warned of 'Cracking and Corrosion' Problem on Boeing 777s
By Alastair Jamieson
A cracking and corrosion problem on Boeing 777s that could lead to the mid-air break-up of the aircraft prompted a warning from air safety regulators weeks before the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, federal records show.
The Federal Aviation Administration ordered checks on hundreds of U.S.-registered 777s after reports of cracking in the fuselage skin underneath a satellite antenna.
In an airworthiness directive, it said the extra checks were needed “to detect and correct cracking and corrosion in the fuselage skin, which could lead to rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity of the airplane.”
The directive, first drawn up in September, was approved in February and was due to take effect on April 9.
It warned that one operator of the jet “reported a 16-inch crack” in the skin of the fuselage on an airplane that was 14 years old with approximately 14,000 total flight cycles.”
The missing Malaysia Airlines jet, registration 9M-MRO, was 12 years old and had completed 7,525 cycles, the airline said.
It was not immediately clear if the airline had already begun to implement the extra checks as part of its maintenance routine. The airline said the missing aircraft was serviced on February 23, with further maintenance scheduled for June 19.
An earlier draft of the directive said that the operator that first reported the 16-inch crack “inspected 42 other airplanes that are between 6 and 16 years old and found some local corrosion, but no other cracking.”
Airworthiness directives are commonplace, similar to car recalls. In the majority of cases, airlines are told to look for faults during maintenance. Orders that require the grounding of an entire fleet of aircraft are rare.
The FAA directive on cracks applies to all Boeing 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER, and -777F series airplanes. The missing jet is a 777-2H6/ER.
That might be the explanation. First, here's a graphic of where the various antennae are located on a 777:
(http://cdn.lowyat.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/post-418035-1394552563.jpg)
The antenna in question is one of the SATCOM antennas just behind the midpoint of the aircraft. If the fuselage suffered a catastrophic failure there, it is quite likely that it would have simply fallen apart. Also, there is a decent analysis on the page I found that image on, here: http://www.lowyat.net/2014/03/was-there-a-problem-with-the-mh370-boeing-777-200-aircraft/
Essentially, that article posits that the failure wasn't a one-time event, but rather that as the antenna mount started to fail, the cabin lost air pressure, resulting in hypoxia of the pilots, which in turn would have resulted in them making serious mistakes - it's hard to think straight when your brain is deprived of oxygen.
Also, the article makes a good case for why all communications ceased: once the antenna failed the pilots would have lost that communications link and, especially if suffering from hypoxia, may have assumed that all communications were dead and simply not attempted to call out at all.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
:whistle:
I bonded, james bonded so you rick roll me? :silly:
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I bonded, james bonded so you rick roll me? :silly:
:beer:
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Ocenander this article says the failure would render the plane blind to outside world, too......
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-warnings-on-boeing-safety-applied-to-missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-20140313-hvi0y.html
snip.....
The FAA first uncovered the flaw in June last year, publishing its concerns in September and updating the information in November. But its final directive wasn’t finalised until February 18, and was made public on March 6. MH370 went missing at about 1.30am on March 8.
Any structural failure related to the flaw could not only have led to a decompression that left the 239 passengers and crew on the missing flight unconscious, it would also have disabled satellite communications, including the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), which transmits data of the plane’s location automatically.
It would also have rendered the plane invisible to all but ''primary radar'', which has a range of only 100 nautical miles. If any rupture of the fuselage was not catastrophic and led to the plane disintegrating, the plane could have continued on autopilot for up to seven hours, taking it well away from its last confirmed position – and possibly beyond the search area – before running out of fuel.
Such an incident took place with a Helios Airways flight in 2005, where 121 passengers and crew died.
And, in 1999, a Learjet carrying golfer Payne Stewart crashed into a field in the US state of South Dakota after flying uncontrolled for several hours after those on board apparently became unconscious due to a lack of oxygen brought on by a loss of cabin pressure.
According to a post on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, the end of satellite communications may not have disabled the mobile phone network on the plane, which runs off a different communications system.
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(http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/843395467.jpg?1394675011)
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Cathernine Herrige reporting the size of the wreckage is "consistent" with the size "experts" have said you would see if the plane broke up in the air - one is 70 feet long, which is consistent with a wing.
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A 777 pilot on Hannity right now, saying the location relative to the flight path looks about right to be "drift" and the wings will float for a long time because of the tanks.
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fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, I think we probably have our basic answer now.
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David Gallo who was part of the Air France search, said a couple of interesting things:
1) how did they miss something this large with the initial aerial search
2) if this is it it makes sense because it is so near the last known position - for instance Air France was found near the last known position
3) he said the size is awfully large, Air France's largest wreckage was the size of a desk.
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we should know soon enough; Malaysia has said it's sent aircraft to the area spotted by the Chinese
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David Gallo who was part of the Air France search, said a couple of interesting things:
1) how did they miss something this large with the initial aerial search
2) if this is it it makes sense because it is so near the last known position - for instance Air France was found near the last known position
3) he said the size is awfully large, Air France's largest wreckage was the size of a desk.
Actually they found the entire vertical fin of AF447. On the A330, it is made of composites where as on the 777 is it mostly aluminum. Composites float.
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Actually they found the entire vertical fin of AF447. On the A330, it is made of composites where as on the 777 is it mostly aluminum. Composites float.
:shrug: :shrug: just reporting what the co-leader of the AF search team just said on CNN.. maybe he was speaking of a very large desk... :shrug: remember it took them two years to find the wreckage of AF.
https://soundcloud.com/bbc-world-service/out
David Gallo, an oceanographer with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in the US, was part of the team that found Air France flight 447.
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The area where this plane is presumed down is shallower than the plane is long.... per David Gallo
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The area where this plane is presumed down is shallower than the plane is long.... per David Gallo
The plane is 64 meters long; that's about 210 feet. Even 150 feet of water is pretty deep.
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The plane is 64 meters long; that's about 210 feet. Even 150 feet of water is pretty deep.
Someone said on Fox it is around 170 feet. Pretty shallow compared to Air France - I thought is was 10,000 feet, but some of it was actually at 13,000 feet. For someone like Woods Hole 170 feet would be a piece of cake.
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Someone said on Fox it is around 170 feet. Pretty shallow compared to Air France - I thought is was 10,000 feet, but some of it was actually at 13,000 feet. For someone like Woods Hole 170 feet would be a piece of cake.
The problem is finding it first; if it's in the western part of the south china sea - where they've been searching and where that debris the Chinese spotted is - then it should be comparatively easy to bring up the wreckage since that part of the SCS is very shallow (avg depth is about 60m).
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:shrug: :shrug: just reporting what the co-leader of the AF search team just said on CNN.. maybe he was speaking of a very large desk... :shrug: remember it took them two years to find the wreckage of AF.
https://soundcloud.com/bbc-world-service/out
David Gallo, an oceanographer with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in the US, was part of the team that found Air France flight 447.
They found the floating debris very quickly including the aforementioned fin.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02205/airbus_2205306b.jpg)
It was all the sunken debris, including both data recorders, which took up to 2 years to recover because it wasn't where they thought it would be.
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any further word on the malaysian aircraft that were supposed to be checking out what the chinese say they've spotted?
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any further word on the malaysian aircraft that were supposed to be checking out what the chinese say they've spotted?
Nothing yet and I've been watching most of the aviation sites for updates. There is a ~12 hour time difference so it is daylight there right now. Even if the aircraft are on site, finding something, which compared to the ocean is very small, is difficult at best. And even if it is spotted from the air, unless it says "Malaysia Airlines" on the side or is clearly painted in their color scheme, it will probably need a ship going out there so the item(s) can be retrieved for proper identification.
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VIDEO: Chinese ridicule Malaysia's recruitment of 'witch doctor' to track missing plane | South China Morning Post
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1447159/video-chinese-ridicule-malaysias-recruitment-witch-doctor-track-missing (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1447159/video-chinese-ridicule-malaysias-recruitment-witch-doctor-track-missing)
An alien or James Bond movie it could also be for $1000, Alex.
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http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282?mobile=y (http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282?mobile=y)
March 13, 2014 4:17 AM
U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours
Engine Data Suggest Malaysia Flight Was Airborne Long After Radar Disappearance
(http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/AI-CH295_MALMAP_D_20140313035406.jpg)
By
Andy Pasztor
U.S. investigators suspect that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 stayed in the air for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to two people familiar with the details, raising the possibility that the plane could have flown on for hundreds of additional miles under conditions that remain murky.
Aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for a total of five hours, based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program.
That raises a host of new questions and possibilities about what happened aboard the widebody jet carrying 239 people, which vanished from civilian air-traffic control radar over the weekend, about one hour into a flight to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur.
Six days after the mysterious disappearance prompted a massive international air and water search that so far hasn't produced any results, the investigation appears to be broadening in scope.
U.S. counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner's transponders to avoid radar detection, according to one person tracking the probe.
The investigation remains fluid, and it isn't clear whether investigators have evidence indicating possible terrorism or sabotage. So far, U.S. national security officials have said that nothing specifically points toward terrorism, though they haven't ruled it out.
But the huge uncertainty about where the plane was headed, and why it apparently continued flying so long without working transponders, has raised theories among investigators that the aircraft may have been commandeered for a reason that appears unclear to U.S. authorities. Some of those theories have been laid out to national security officials and senior personnel from various U.S. agencies, according to one person familiar with the matter.
At one briefing, according to this person, officials were told investigators are actively pursuing the notion that the plane was diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose."
As of Wednesday it remained unclear whether the plane reached an alternate destination or if it ultimately crashed, potentially hundreds of miles from where an international search effort has been focused.
In those scenarios, neither mechanical problems, pilot mistakes nor some other type of catastrophic incident caused the 250-ton plane to mysteriously vanish from radar.
The latest revelations come as local media reported that Malaysian police visited the home of at least one of the two pilots.
A Malaysia Airlines official declined to comment. A Boeing executive who declined to be named would not comment except to say, "We've got to stand back from the front line of the information."
The engines' onboard monitoring system is provided by their manufacturer, Rolls-Royce PLC, and it periodically sends bursts of data about engine health, operations and aircraft movements to facilities on the ground.
"We continue to monitor the situation and to offer Malaysia Airlines our support," a Rolls-Royce representative said Wednesday, declining further comment.
"The disappearance is officially now an accident and all information about this is strictly handled by investigators," said a Rolls-Royce executive who declined to be named, citing rules of the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency.
As part of its maintenance agreements, Malaysia Airlines transmits its engine data live to Rolls-Royce for analysis. The system compiles data from inside the 777's two Trent 800 engines and transmits snapshots of performance, as well as the altitude and speed of the jet.
Those snippets are compiled and transmitted in 30-minute increments, said one person familiar with the system. According to Rolls-Royce's website, the data is processed automatically "so that subtle changes in condition from one flight to another can be detected."
The engine data is being analyzed to help determine the flight path of the plane after the transponders stopped working. The jet was originally headed for China, and its last verified position was half way across the Gulf of Thailand.
A total flight time of five hours after departing Kuala Lumpur means the Boeing 777 could have continued for an additional distance of about 2,200 nautical miles, reaching points as far as the Indian Ocean, the border of Pakistan or even the Arabian Sea, based on the jet's cruising speed.
Earlier Wednesday, frustrations over the protracted search for the missing plane mounted as both China and Vietnam vented their anger over what they viewed as poor coordination of the effort.
Government conflicts and national arguments over crises are hardly unique to the Flight 370 situation, but some air-safety experts said they couldn't recall another recent instance of governments' publicly feuding over search procedures during the early phase of an international investigation.
Authorities on Wednesday radically expanded the size of the search zone, which already was proving a challenge to cover effectively, but the mission hadn't turned up much by the end of the fifth day.
Also on Wednesday, a Chinese government website posted images from Chinese satellites showing what it said were three large objects floating in an 8-square-mile area off the southern tip of Vietnam. The objects were discovered on Sunday , according to the website, which didn't say whether the objects had been recovered or examined.
Ten countries were helping to scour the seas around Malaysia, including China, the U.S. and Vietnam. Taiwanese vessels are expected to be on the scene by Friday, with India and Japan having also agreed to join the search soon.
In all, 56 surface ships were taking part in the search, according to statements issued by the contributing governments, with Malaysia providing 27 of them. In addition, 30 fixed-wing aircraft were also searching, with at least 10 shipboard helicopters available, mostly in the waters between Malaysia and Vietnam.
China's government was especially aggrieved. More than 150 of the 239 people on board are Chinese, and family members in Beijing have at times loudly expressed their frustration over the absence of leads.
More than a dozen Chinese diplomats met with Malaysian authorities in Kuala Lumpur on Wednesday as tension grew over the search.
"At present there's a lot of different information out there. It's very chaotic and very hard to verify," foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang said in a regular press briefing. "We've said as long as there is a shred of hope, you can't give up."
The day before, Beijing pointedly pressed Malaysia to accelerate its investigation, which has been hampered by false leads on suspected debris and conflicting reports on radar tracking.
Vietnam on Wednesday suspended its search flights after conflicting reports from Malaysia that authorities had tracked the plane to the Strait of Malacca before it disappeared.
Gen. Rodzali Daud, Malaysia's air force chief, denied saying he had told local media that military radar facilities had tracked the plane there, saying they were still examining all possibilities. Vietnam later resumed normal search sweeps.
Malaysian authorities divided the search area into several sectors on either side of the country, as well as areas on land.
The challenge, said Lt. David Levy, a spokesman for the U.S. Navy's Seventh Fleet, isn't so much coordination as the sheer size of the area involved. The search grids are up to 20 miles by 120 miles, and ships and aircraft employ an exhaustive methodical pattern "like mowing your lawn" in their search for the plane, he said.
U.S. defense officials sought to play down any suggestion that the Malaysian government was doing a poor job with the search.
"It is not unusual for searches to take a long time, especially when you are working with limited data," one official said.
Aviation experts say the absence of an electronic signal from the plane before it disappeared from radar screens makes it difficult to pin down possible locations. Some radar data suggested the Boeing 777 might have tried to turn back to Kuala Lumpur before contact was lost, a detail that prompted a search for the plane on both sides of the Malaysian peninsula.
A U.S. Navy P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft has been searching the northern Strait of Malacca, west of Malaysia, while destroyers USS Kidd and USS Pinckney have been deploying helicopters in the Gulf of Thailand to the east.
So far the U.S., like other nations taking part in the search, has had no success. Many aviation experts are concluding that searchers may not have been looking in the right places. Even if the plane broke up in midair, it would have left telltale traces of debris in the ocean. The cracks now emerging between some of the participants in the search could make it even more difficult.
Diplomatic feuds over air disasters have generally erupted over the conclusions of the investigations, long after the initial search is over.
The results of the 1999 crash of an Egyptair Boeing 767 en route to Egypt from New York, which killed 217 people, spawned a dispute between Washington and Cairo that strained ties for years. The National Transportation Safety Board concluded the plane's co-pilot purposely put the twin-engine jet into a steep dive and then resisted efforts by the captain to recover control before the airliner slammed into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Nantucket. Egyptian authorities insisted the evidence indicated mechanical failure.
Earlier, Washington and Paris butted heads over the investigation into the 1994 crash of a French-built American Eagle commuter turboprop near Roselawn, Ind. The French objected to the NTSB's conclusions that French regulators failed to take actions that could have prevented the accident.
Earlier this week, Malaysian investigators said they were expanding their investigation to encompass the possibility of hijack or sabotage, and possible personal or psychological problems of the crew and passengers. But Malaysian officials haven't discussed transmissions regarding engine operations or offered any explanation for the primary and backup transponders' not working.
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No debris at spot seen on satellite: Malaysia
By Associated Press
March 13, 2014 | 1:23am
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — No signs of the missing Malaysian jetliner have been found at a spot where Chinese satellite images showed what might be plane debris, Malaysia’s civil aviation chief said Thursday, deflating the latest lead in the five-day hunt.
“There is nothing. We went there, there is nothing,” Azharuddin Abdul Rahman told reporters in Kuala Lumpur.
Vietnamese officials previously said the area had been “searched thoroughly” in recent days ... .
AP via NY Post (http://nypost.com/2014/03/13/no-plane-debris-at-spot-shown-by-chinese-images/)
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It would have been nice if Boeing and Rolls Royce had piped up earlier with this new information about the engine monitoring systems. At the very least it would probably have saved millions of dollars and days' worth of time searching in areas where the plane is almost certainly not located if its engines continued to run for hours after its last contact - I'm guessing that engines generally don't keep running, or broadcasting their performance data, once the airplane they're attached to breaks up and/or hits the water.
Given this new info, the Chinese satellite images are very, very unlikely to be the missing plane.
Back to square one, or square zero even.
I'm also going to guess that the fact the plane continued to transmit engine data for hours after it stopped communicating means that the antennas were still functional, which heavily discounts the theory that the plane suffered a catastrophic failure due to the issues identified in the most recent FAA airworthiness release.
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And the Malaysians are saying the report on the engine data is untrue.
Square zero indeed....
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And the Malaysians are saying the report on the engine data is untrue.
Square zero indeed....
I think I'd be inclined to trust Boeing and Rolls Royce just a smidge more than the Malaysian gov't.
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1. Tracking gear disabled.
2. Area to store plane.
3. Some level of government involvement: misdirection, delay, limited or disinformation.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579524/Hijacked-hidden-US-counter-terror-officials-fear-plane-captured-debris-spotted-Chinese-ruled-new-data-reveals-airborne-FOUR-hours-vanishing.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579524/Hijacked-hidden-US-counter-terror-officials-fear-plane-captured-debris-spotted-Chinese-ruled-new-data-reveals-airborne-FOUR-hours-vanishing.html)
Was missing jet HIJACKED? US officials fear MH370 was captured and flown to mystery location after debris seen at sea is ruled out and new data reveals it was airborne FOUR HOURS after vanishing
US investigators examining whether flight was taken to another location
Officials suspect data from engines suggests plane flew total of five hours
Counter-terrorism officials concerned pilot or someone else turned off transponders
Four more hours of flight time would allow the plane to fly 2,200 nautical miles
That would put Pakistan and the Arabian Sea within reach
Malaysia Airlines previously said the Rolls-Royce Trent engines stopped transmitting monitoring signals when contact with the plane was lost
On Wednesday the Chinese government satellite imagery was released which showed the 'suspected crash site' of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370
Blurry images appeared to show three large pieces of debris - the largest of which is 78-feet by 72-feet
Vietnamese and Malaysian aviation chiefs ruled this out and said no plane debris was found at spot shown by China's satellite images
By James Nye and Richard Shears In Kuala Lumpur
PUBLISHED: 16:19 EST, 12 March 2014 | UPDATED: 06:59 EST, 13 March 2014
continued
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I think I'd be inclined to trust Boeing and Rolls Royce just a smidge more than the Malaysian gov't.
I concur, but if we sliced Malaysia's denial into planks, we could re-roof a barn....
:smokin:
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-officials-malaysia-airline-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-officials-malaysia-airline-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802)
US Officials Believe Malaysia Airline Crashed into Indian Ocean
March 13, 2014
By MARTHA RADDATZ
U.S. officials believe that the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner may have crashed in the Indian Ocean and is moving the USS Kidd to the area to begin searching.
It will take another 24 hours to move the ship into position, a senior Pentagon official told ABC News.
"We have an indication the plane went down in the Indian Ocean," the senior official said.
The official said there were indications that the plane flew four or five hours after disappearing from radar and that they believe it went into the water.
The U.S. action came hours after Malaysian officials said they had extended their search into the Andaman Sea and had requested help from India in the search for the missing plane and its 239 passengers.
Investigators also said today that U.S. officials gave them reasons to keep searching the waters west of Malaysia, far from the flight path of the Malaysia Airlines plane.
Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that the search’s “main focus has always been in the South China Sea,” which is east of Malaysia and along the plane’s route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
But the search was extended earlier this week to include water far to the west on the other side of Malaysia.
“We are working very closely with the FAA and the NTSB on the issue of a possible air turn back,” Hishammuddin said, referring to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
“They have indicated to us that based on the information given by the Malaysian authorities, they — being the FAA and NTSB — the U.S. team was of the view that there was reasonable ground for the Malaysian authorities to deploy resources to conduct search on the western side of the peninsula of Malaysia. Under the circumstances, it is appropriate to conduct the search even if the evidence suggests there is a possibility of finding a minor evidence to suggest that ... the aircraft would have been there.”
Hishammuddin said it was possible the plane kept flying after dropping off of radar. "Of course, this is why we have extended the search," he said.
The Malaysians spent much of today's news conference dismissing earlier leads.
"I’ve heard of many incidents from many sources. Like we have said from the start, we have looked at every lead and in most cases — in fact in all cases — that we have pursued, we have not found anything positive," Hishamuddin said.
He said that pictures of three large objects floating in the South China Sea posted Wednesday on a Chinese government website were not debris from the missing plane.
"A Malaysian maritime enforcement agency surveillance plane was dispatched this morning to investigate potential debris shown on Chinese satellite images. We deployed assets, but found nothing. We have contacted the Chinese Embassy who notified us this afternoon the images were released by mistake and did not show any debris from MH370," he said.
Hishamuddin also dismissed a report by the Wall Street Journal that signals sent by the plane's Rolls Royce engine indicated the plane kept flying for up to five hours. He didn't dispute the plane could have kept flying, but said Rolls Royce did not receive any signals from the engine after it vanished from radar.
Earlier in the search, two oil slicks were determined to not be from the plane and an orange object thought to be part of the plane's door was investigated and found to be unrelated.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_malaysia_missing_plane_wy_140313_4x3t_384.jpg)
Map shows search areas for missing Malaysia Airlines jet which has been expanded, March 13, 2014.
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-officials-malaysia-airline-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-officials-malaysia-airline-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802)
US Officials Believe Malaysia Airline Crashed into Indian Ocean
March 13, 2014
By MARTHA RADDATZ
U.S. officials believe that the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner may have crashed in the Indian Ocean and is moving the USS Kidd to the area to begin searching.
It will take another 24 hours to move the ship into position, a senior Pentagon official told ABC News.
"We have an indication the plane went down in the Indian Ocean," the senior official said.
The official said there were indications that the plane flew four or five hours after disappearing from radar and that they believe it went into the water.
The U.S. action came hours after Malaysian officials said they had extended their search into the Andaman Sea and had requested help from India in the search for the missing plane and its 239 passengers.
Investigators also said today that U.S. officials gave them reasons to keep searching the waters west of Malaysia, far from the flight path of the Malaysia Airlines plane.
Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that the search’s “main focus has always been in the South China Sea,” which is east of Malaysia and along the plane’s route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
But the search was extended earlier this week to include water far to the west on the other side of Malaysia.
“We are working very closely with the FAA and the NTSB on the issue of a possible air turn back,” Hishammuddin said, referring to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
“They have indicated to us that based on the information given by the Malaysian authorities, they — being the FAA and NTSB — the U.S. team was of the view that there was reasonable ground for the Malaysian authorities to deploy resources to conduct search on the western side of the peninsula of Malaysia. Under the circumstances, it is appropriate to conduct the search even if the evidence suggests there is a possibility of finding a minor evidence to suggest that ... the aircraft would have been there.”
Hishammuddin said it was possible the plane kept flying after dropping off of radar. "Of course, this is why we have extended the search," he said.
The Malaysians spent much of today's news conference dismissing earlier leads.
"I’ve heard of many incidents from many sources. Like we have said from the start, we have looked at every lead and in most cases — in fact in all cases — that we have pursued, we have not found anything positive," Hishamuddin said.
He said that pictures of three large objects floating in the South China Sea posted Wednesday on a Chinese government website were not debris from the missing plane.
"A Malaysian maritime enforcement agency surveillance plane was dispatched this morning to investigate potential debris shown on Chinese satellite images. We deployed assets, but found nothing. We have contacted the Chinese Embassy who notified us this afternoon the images were released by mistake and did not show any debris from MH370," he said.
Hishamuddin also dismissed a report by the Wall Street Journal that signals sent by the plane's Rolls Royce engine indicated the plane kept flying for up to five hours. He didn't dispute the plane could have kept flying, but said Rolls Royce did not receive any signals from the engine after it vanished from radar.
Earlier in the search, two oil slicks were determined to not be from the plane and an orange object thought to be part of the plane's door was investigated and found to be unrelated.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_malaysia_missing_plane_wy_140313_4x3t_384.jpg)
Map shows search areas for missing Malaysia Airlines jet which has been expanded, March 13, 2014.
Please see Reply #296 on: March 12, 2014, 08:42:57 PM
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Please see Reply #296 on: March 12, 2014, 08:42:57 PM
please check your ego at the door
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please check your ego at the door
Being that you made a ridiculous remark about body of waters,strait, sea and so on-not being an OCEAN. I don't think it is egotistical Bigun predicted the IO. :silly:
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Being that you made a ridiculous remark about body of waters,strait, sea and so on-not being an OCEAN. I don't think it is egotistical Bigun predicted the IO. :silly:
Everyone's welcome to their opinions. And that's all they are. Since the aircraft hasn't been found yet and there is no concensus that it went in the direction he said it did, his prediction is still just that, speculation.
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Everyone's welcome to their opinions. And that's all they are. Since the aircraft hasn't been found yet and there is no concensus that it went in the direction he said it did, his prediction is still just that, speculation.
Yeah, buddy.....but you went way overboard with your criticism of a poster that used the word "ocean" when anybody that can fog a mirror knew he/she meant 'body of water'.
Lighten up, Francis. :beer:
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Oh C R A P!
6.3 Mag Quake Strikes Off S. Japanese Island...
M6.3 - 13km N of Kunisaki-shi, Japan 2014-03-13 17:06:51 UTC
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/usc000nabv#summary (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/usc000nabv#summary)
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airliner-pinging-indication-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airliner-pinging-indication-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802)
Malaysia Airliner Communications Shut Down Separately: US Officials Say
March 13, 2014
By MARTHA RADDATZ and DAVID KERLEY
DAVID KERLEY More From David »
Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure.
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m.
This indicates it may well have been a deliberate act, ABC News aviation consultant John Nance said.
U.S. officials said earlier that they have an "indication" the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner may have crashed in the Indian Ocean and is moving the USS Kidd to the area to begin searching.
It's not clear what the indication was, but senior administration officials told ABC News the missing Malaysian flight continued to "ping" a satellite on an hourly basis after it lost contact with radar. The Boeing 777 jetliners are equipped with what is called the Airplane Health Management system in which they ping a satellite every hour. The number of pings would indicate how long the plane stayed aloft.
It's not clear, however, whether the satellite pings also indicate the plane's location.
The new information has greatly expanded the search area and it will take another 24 hours to move the USS Kidd into position, a senior Pentagon official told ABC News.
"We have an indication the plane went down in the Indian Ocean," the senior official said.
The official initially said there were indications that the plane flew four or five hours after disappearing from radar and that they believe it went into the water. Officials later said the plane likely did not fly four or five hours, but did not specify how long it may have been airborne.
White House spokesman Jay Carney said, “It's my understanding that based on some new information that's not necessarily conclusive, but new information, an additional search area may be opened in the Indian Ocean, and we are consulting with international partners about the appropriate assets to deploy.”
Carney did not specify the nature of the “new information.”
Pentagon officials said that the USS Kidd was being moved at the request of Malaysia and is heading towards an area where the Indian Ocean and the Andaman Sea meet. The ship has helicopters aboard that can scour the area.
The U.S. action came hours after Malaysian officials said they had extended their search into the Andaman Sea and had requested help from India in the search for the missing plane and its 239 passengers.
Investigators also said today that U.S. officials gave them reasons to keep searching the waters west of Malaysia, far from the flight path of the Malaysia Airlines plane.
Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that the search’s “main focus has always been in the South China Sea,” which is east of Malaysia and along the plane’s route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
But the search was extended earlier this week to include water far to the west on the other side of Malaysia.
“We are working very closely with the FAA and the NTSB on the issue of a possible air turn back,” Hishammuddin said, referring to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
“They have indicated to us that based on the information given by the Malaysian authorities, they — being the FAA and NTSB — the U.S. team was of the view that there was reasonable ground for the Malaysian authorities to deploy resources to conduct search on the western side of the peninsula of Malaysia. Under the circumstances, it is appropriate to conduct the search even if the evidence suggests there is a possibility of finding a minor evidence to suggest that ... the aircraft would have been there.”
Hishammuddin said it was possible the plane kept flying after dropping off of radar. "Of course, this is why we have extended the search," he said.
The Malaysians spent much of today's news conference dismissing earlier leads.
"I’ve heard of many incidents from many sources. Like we have said from the start, we have looked at every lead and in most cases — in fact in all cases — that we have pursued, we have not found anything positive," Hishamuddin said.
He said that pictures of three large objects floating in the South China Sea posted Wednesday on a Chinese government website were not debris from the missing plane.
"A Malaysian maritime enforcement agency surveillance plane was dispatched this morning to investigate potential debris shown on Chinese satellite images. We deployed assets, but found nothing. We have contacted the Chinese Embassy who notified us this afternoon the images were released by mistake and did not show any debris from MH370," he said.
Hishamuddin also dismissed a report by the Wall Street Journal that signals sent by the plane's Rolls Royce engine indicated the plane kept flying for up to five hours. He didn't dispute the plane could have kept flying, but said Rolls Royce did not receive any signals from the engine after it vanished from radar.
Earlier in the search, two oil slicks were determined to not be from the plane and an orange object thought to be part of the plane's door was investigated and found to be unrelated.
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On the topic of the recently issued Airworthiness Directive regarding 777's and possible corrosion, it does not apply to 9M-MRO (the missing aircraft's registration) as it has a different antenna than the one that caused the AD to be issued.
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On the topic of the recently issued Airworthiness Directive regarding 777's and possible corrosion, it does not apply to 9M-MRO (the missing aircraft's registration) as it has a different antenna than the one that caused the AD to be issued.
It doesn't seem to have played a role in any event; certainly not if the aircraft was still sending out engine performance data, nor if it was stilling "pinging" satellites once an hour.
I am going to make a very off-the-cuff guess that they've moved the search to where they have because the signals the aircraft kept emitting had time-stamps in small enough time increments, and the time of receipt for each signal was recorded, so that an analysis of the time increments, and the position of the receiving satellite, allowed someone to figure out if the source of the signals - i.e., the plane - was moving toward, away, or perpendicular to the orbit of, the receiving satellite.
From what I read about the engine data sent out, the system transmits a new set of data every 30 minutes, which means that the reference time on one dataset should be exactly 30 minutes after the preceding one and 30 minutes before the following one - because those time stamps would have been set based on the aircraft's own internal clock. However, because radio signals cannot travel faster than light, the amount of time between when the signal is first sent and the time it's received will vary depending on how far away the plane is from the receiving satellite at the time.
For example, suppose the receiving satellite was travelling in an orbit from West to East (I'm making this up, I have no idea what sort of orbit the satellites in question have; the proposition generalizes to all types of orbits). If the aircraft were flying toward the West, then the difference between the time a datapacket was transmitted and the time it was received would get smaller with each datapacket. On the other hand, if the aircraft were flying toward the East, that time would get larger with each datapacket. Finally, if the aircraft were travelling at an angle to the satellite's orbital path, the change in the time differential would be smaller in proportion to the size of the angle between the flightpath and the orbital path.
So my guess is that someone was able to analyze the different time stamps on those data packets and made an educated guess that the aircraft was probably moving in the direction of the Indian Ocean.
But that's just the total speculation of an ignorant layperson.
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Apparently it wasn't sending out data, but it was pinging satellites, trying to communicate.
Also, according to ABC news, ACARS (the data system) was switched off (likely to standby mode if it was still pinging) at 1:07am and then the transponder was switched off at 1:21am.
This is what ABC news is currently reporting. We'll see if, or likely when, the story changes for the umpteenth time.
If this is correct, it was a deliberate act either by one or both of the pilots, or by a hijacker(s). To turn these systems off, especially ACARS requires someone with decent knowledge of the aircraft..
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Apparently it wasn't sending out data, but it was pinging satellites, trying to communicate.
Also, according to ABC news, ACARS (the data system) was switched off (likely to standby mode if it was still pinging) at 1:07am and then the transponder was switched off at 1:21am.
This is what ABC news is currently reporting. We'll see if, or likely when, the story changes for the umpteenth time.
If this is correct, it was a deliberate act either by one or both of the pilots, or by a hijacker(s). To turn these systems off, especially ACARS requires someone with decent knowledge of the aircraft..
Even if it was just pinging, if there were a sufficient number of pings and the transmission time could be divined, then the time difference between transmission and reception could still be used to get a general idea - probably to within a given quadrant - of the aircraft's flightpath.
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It doesn't seem to have played a role in any event; certainly not if the aircraft was still sending out engine performance data, nor if it was stilling "pinging" satellites once an hour.
I am going to make a very off-the-cuff guess that they've moved the search to where they have because the signals the aircraft kept emitting had time-stamps in small enough time increments, and the time of receipt for each signal was recorded, so that an analysis of the time increments, and the position of the receiving satellite, allowed someone to figure out if the source of the signals - i.e., the plane - was moving toward, away, or perpendicular to the orbit of, the receiving satellite.
From what I read about the engine data sent out, the system transmits a new set of data every 30 minutes, which means that the reference time on one dataset should be exactly 30 minutes after the preceding one and 30 minutes before the following one - because those time stamps would have been set based on the aircraft's own internal clock. However, because radio signals cannot travel faster than light, the amount of time between when the signal is first sent and the time it's received will vary depending on how far away the plane is from the receiving satellite at the time.
For example, suppose the receiving satellite was travelling in an orbit from West to East (I'm making this up, I have no idea what sort of orbit the satellites in question have; the proposition generalizes to all types of orbits). If the aircraft were flying toward the West, then the difference between the time a datapacket was transmitted and the time it was received would get smaller with each datapacket. On the other hand, if the aircraft were flying toward the East, that time would get larger with each datapacket. Finally, if the aircraft were travelling at an angle to the satellite's orbital path, the change in the time differential would be smaller in proportion to the size of the angle between the flightpath and the orbital path.
So my guess is that someone was able to analyze the different time stamps on those data packets and made an educated guess that the aircraft was probably moving in the direction of the Indian Ocean.
But that's just the total speculation of an ignorant layperson.
Same thing I've been thinking. If you got a hit on a particular satellite you can track it back to where it was in its orbit when it received the *ping* and that would narrow the search area considerably. That kind of analysis takes time too. It is a very complex exercise in orbital mechanics, and while Quantum theory does not come into the equation, the math does get hairy enough to at least drive you to strong drink....
Let's see what comes of some competent analysis. I think it is clear that Malasian aviation has been pretty well discredited across the entire spectrum, and that we cannot depend on anything coming from them. The Indian Navy is just as likely to lose a couple of their ships due to mechanical malfeasance so once again it will likely be the US who finally locates this plane.
What should be sobering to the flying public is that there still really are places on the earth where you can in fact be cast away....
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I am told by friends much more knowledgeable than I that even if the ACARS system was placed in standby mode it would still maintain some communications with the satellites and that each ping would contain some amount of information (that is how they know the engines were still running) and likely included in that information would be the planes current location.
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To disable the ACARS, HF, VHF systems, and the SATCOM, you have to go into the electrical/electronics (E/E for short) bay. Those circuit breakers are not in the cockpit. The E/E bay is located below the first class galley.
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I am told by friends much more knowledgeable than I that even if the ACARS system was placed in standby mode it would still maintain some communications with the satellites and that each ping would contain some amount of information (that is how they know the engines were still running) and likely included in that information would be the planes current location.
AC made the same point about "pinging" while in standby. Just my guess, but a ping probably wouldn't contain a lot of data - it's basically either a request for an answer or it's a "here I am if you want me" notice - but it might contain some sort of a time signature, which would be useful for diagnostics on the communications system itself.
In fact, while it wouldn't be particularly accurate, if you know that the aircraft systems will "ping" at a very well-defined time, then for each "ping" you receive you can determine the time that it was first transmitted from the aircraft - because that's set by definition - and you would know the time at which that "ping" was received by the satellite(s) within range, so you could use the difference between the transmission and the reception to compute the distance of the aircraft from the satellite.
Now here I'm just thinking off the cuff and on the fly: if the aircraft's systems are "pinging" that suggests that they're looking for a satellite, any satellite, within range that they can talk to, which in turn suggests that the satellites could be close enough to each other that their coverage areas overlap, so that at least two satellites would receive a single "ping" from the aircraft. If that were the case, then it becomes easier - once the mathematics and the physics is worked out - to triangulate in on the likely position of the aircraft. I would think that at the least it would be possible to tell which quadrant the aircraft travelled into, using its last good known position as the origin.
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AC made the same point about "pinging" while in standby. Just my guess, but a ping probably wouldn't contain a lot of data - it's basically either a request for an answer or it's a "here I am if you want me" notice - but it might contain some sort of a time signature, which would be useful for diagnostics on the communications system itself.
In fact, while it wouldn't be particularly accurate, if you know that the aircraft systems will "ping" at a very well-defined time, then for each "ping" you receive you can determine the time that it was first transmitted from the aircraft - because that's set by definition - and you would know the time at which that "ping" was received by the satellite(s) within range, so you could use the difference between the transmission and the reception to compute the distance of the aircraft from the satellite.
Now here I'm just thinking off the cuff and on the fly: if the aircraft's systems are "pinging" that suggests that they're looking for a satellite, any satellite, within range that they can talk to, which in turn suggests that the satellites could be close enough to each other that their coverage areas overlap, so that at least two satellites would receive a single "ping" from the aircraft. If that were the case, then it becomes easier - once the mathematics and the physics is worked out - to triangulate in on the likely position of the aircraft. I would think that at the least it would be possible to tell which quadrant the aircraft travelled into, using its last good known position as the origin.
I am on the radio (Ham) with a bunch of retired airline pilots and FAA people as we speak! Inquiries are flying back and forth at the moment but it appears at this point that AC's math exercise explanation is the correct one!
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I am on the radio (Ham) with a bunch of retired airline pilots and FAA people as we speak! Inquiries are flying back and forth at the moment but it appears at this point that AC's math exercise explanation is the correct one!
which math exercise explanation?
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which math exercise explanation?
Actually it turns out to have been your math explanation that Chief responded to above,
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
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Actually it turns out to have been your math explanation that Chief responded to above,
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
Not at all. I was a little confused myself. I only thought of it because I know that a lot of ethernet packets contain timestamps and so I made the rather dangerous assumption (in case you can't tell, I'm comfortable when it comes to being an a$$ from time to time!) that a "ping" packet from these aircraft systems would also contain a timestamp.
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Jay Carney mentioned the missing plane.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/malaysia-airlines-indian-ocean_n_4959252.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/malaysia-airlines-indian-ocean_n_4959252.html)
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Malaysia Airliner Communications Shut Down Separately: US Officials Say - ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airliner-pinging-indication-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/malaysia-airliner-pinging-indication-crashed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802)
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At this point I'm wondering which Muslim nation they landed the plane in and how they are hiding it.
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Three - not two - tracking devices were shut off.
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At this point I'm wondering which Muslim nation they landed the plane in and how they are hiding it.
India's not muslim.
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India's not muslim.
No, but do we know it is in India? It could just as easily made it to Indonesia.
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No, but do we know it is in India? It could just as easily made it to Indonesia.
India's not muslim.
From Wikipedia: The largest Muslim population in a country is in Indonesia, a secular nation home to 11.7% of the world's Muslims, followed by india (11.0%), pakistan (10.9%), and Bangladesh (9.2%).[3][12] About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries.[13] In the Middle East, the non-Arab countries of Turkey and Iran are the largest Muslim-majority countries; in Africa, Egypt and Nigeria have the most populous Muslim communities.[3][
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Given the way they are convinced the direction the plane turned it is possible it could have turned toward either India or Indonesia. 2500 miles is a lot of territory... I don't think they could have made Africa.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake_-_affected_countries.png)
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At this point I'm wondering which Muslim nation they landed the plane in and how they are hiding it.
Under Burkhas?
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India's not muslim.
Right. Neither is our White House. /sarc
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Right. Neither is our White House. /sarc
India is ~80% Hindu, Islam is ~13%, with other religions making up the rest. Most of the Muslim population is in the areas near Bangladesh and Pakistan.
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Africa would be pushing it. Remember, aircraft do carry more fuel than they need for the a flight in case they get stuck in a holding pattern, or they encounter unexpected head winds on route which would cause them to burn more fuel.
However, Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Yemen, and a host of other countries would be within range.
There are obviously countless old runways all over the region, many dating back to WWII.
All you'd need is a 5,500+ foot runway to land a 777 on. Taking off again would be another story.
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this, from WSJ, shows the maximum range the aircraft could probably have reached from its last known position given the fuel it left with and its flight characteristics:
(http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-BP443B_MALAY_G_20140313185709.jpg)
Maybe they landed just outside Perth, AUS, for a coupla tinnies?
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Africa would be pushing it. Remember, aircraft do carry more fuel than they need for the a flight in case they get stuck in a holding pattern, or they encounter unexpected head winds on route which would cause them to burn more fuel.
However, Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Yemen, and a host of other countries would be within range.
There are obviously countless old runways all over the region, many dating back to WWII.
All you'd need is a 5,500+ foot runway to land a 777 on. Taking off again would be another story.
I dunno; all you need is enough room to burn out all the plane's kinetic energy to land it; that'd probably be a lot less than 5,500 ft. :silly:
Pakistan, Iran, and Yemen would be out of range.
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That is a lot of ocean to cover.
BTW someone on Kelly File said what I posted last night - the Malacca Straits are a likely positively no because it is the heaviest traveled place in the world as the oil for Japan and China as well as a lot of other things are shipped through there. Remember the people I told you I followed on their circumnavigation a few years ago - when they got to the Singapore area it was totally white knuckle travel pretty much all the way to the Suez Canal... they would post pictures of their radar at night (they traveled at night a lot once they were near Indonesia and Africa beause of potential hijackers).. It really was a fascinating read.
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I still say that thrice-damned Karl Rove and those never-to-be-sufficiently-damned Koch Brothers had something to do with this......
:smokin:
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This is an old map of the currents in the Indian Ocean:
(http://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/3600/3638/3638.gif)
If this were January, the currents would probably be weakly pushing debris eastward; if this were July, however, the currents would be pulling any debris strongly out further into the Indian Ocean. Since we're halfway between January and July (more or less), I'm wondering if the debris will be moved more by winds than by currents.
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lol ain't no Ethernet technologies in play out in space!! :silly:
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With the tracking devices being manually shut off my suspicions are narrowing in on the First Officer - Fariq Ab Hamid, a 27-year-old Malaysian.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579955/US-officials-convinced-two-separate-communications-systems-Malaysian-jet-DELIBERATELY-shut-14-minutes-apart-emerges-aircraft-pinging-FIVE-hours-vanished-flying.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579955/US-officials-convinced-two-separate-communications-systems-Malaysian-jet-DELIBERATELY-shut-14-minutes-apart-emerges-aircraft-pinging-FIVE-hours-vanished-flying.html)
Officials 'convinced' two communications systems on missing jet were deliberately shut off 14-minutes apart as it emerges aircraft DID keep 'pinging' for hours after vanishing at 35,000 ft
Malaysian Airways flight MH370 went missing on Saturday morning carrying 239 passengers
Its last known position was above the South China Sea an hour into flying
U.S. official said two separate communication systems were shut down 'deliberately' shortly after take-off
Despite this, tracking signals or 'pings' were sent to British firms satellite from the plane for up to five further hours after it vanished
These pings show the plane's altitude, height and speed
According to US officials when the last ping was sent the plane was still flying at 35,000ft over water
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http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-deliberately-flown-towards-indias-andaman-islands-military-radar/story-fnizu68q-1226854092765 (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-deliberately-flown-towards-indias-andaman-islands-military-radar/story-fnizu68q-1226854092765)
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 deliberately flown towards India’s Andaman Islands: military radar
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With the tracking devices being manually shut off my suspicions are narrowing in on the First Officer - Fariq Ab Hamid, a 27-year-old Malaysian.
Motive?
Steal a 777?
Suicide terrorist flight?
I say he (they) whoever stole it (have hostages or shot them all) to some remote location anywhere. They are gassing it up and just when we least suspect it fly in to CONUS and crash into a building?
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Just want to say "thank you" for this thread. I've been following it for days and appreciate all the information you've posted. :beer:
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It has been a Week. At this late date 'what difference does it make'? Time to move on.
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Motive?
Steal a 777?
Suicide terrorist flight?
I say he (they) whoever stole it (have hostages or shot them all) to some remote location anywhere. They are gassing it up and just when we least suspect it fly in to CONUS and crash into a building?
It's worse. Cheap, effective delivery of EMP or dirty matter. Almost undetectable and by the time it is detected, way too late. But hey, global warming/ climate change/ green sheen... yup, it will be mankind's doing. : /
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It's worse. Cheap, effective delivery of EMP or dirty matter. Almost undetectable and by the time it is detected, way too late. But hey, global warming/ climate change/ green sheen... yup, it will be mankind's doing. : /
Why would they go through all the trouble to steal a plane? They can buy one for a price, you would think off black market? Wow. On second thought this would be easier. Pilot/co pilot being a sleeper agent looks more and more to be possible as each minutes passes.
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Exclusive: Radar data suggests missing Malaysia plane deliberately flown way off course
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/14/exclusive-radar-data-suggests-missing-malaysia-plane-deliberate/20849855/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/14/exclusive-radar-data-suggests-missing-malaysia-plane-deliberate/20849855/)
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Dad is a bit dubious about the report from Rolls Royce Derby.
He hasn't heard anything about it, and he was lead draughtsman in the Derby plant for 20 years and the Barnoldswick plant for 10 years before that. Every time you fly in a plane with Rolls Royce engines and stop successfully on landing, he gets paid a couple pence - he designed the second generation thrust reverser for the RB 211 and holds shared patent rights to it. He's retired now, but still does consultancy work on the side. Not for the money - he gets bored doing the gardening/cleaning/TV watching thing and likes to keep his hand in. My sis and I encourage him to eat right and live as long as possible - the royalties stop when he dies! :laugh:
Anecdote, and maybe they are keeping it quiet, but he contracts to engine optimization at the moment. Those are the ones who would get the telemetry feed.
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Dad is a bit dubious about the report from Rolls Royce Derby.
He hasn't heard anything about it, and he was lead draughtsman in the Derby plant for 20 years and the Barnoldswick plant for 10 years before that. Every time you fly in a plane with Rolls Royce engines and stop successfully on landing, he gets paid a couple pence - he designed the second generation thrust reverser for the RB 211 and holds shared patent rights to it. He's retired now, but still does consultancy work on the side. Not for the money - he gets bored doing the gardening/cleaning/TV watching thing and likes to keep his hand in. My sis and I encourage him to eat right and live as long as possible - the royalties stop when he dies! :laugh:
Anecdote, and maybe they are keeping it quiet, but he contracts to engine optimization at the moment. Those are the ones who would get the telemetry feed.
The experts I am in contact with tell me that as long as there is one engine running on that plane the engine itself is sending out maintenance data packets and that those cannot be stopped from inside the aircraft. I believe this data is what they are going on right now.
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The experts I am in contact with tell me that as long as there is one engine running on that plane the engine itself is sending out maintenance data packets and that those cannot be stopped from inside the aircraft. I believe this data is what they are going on right now.
So let me get this straight.
The engines had independent, self-contained beacons on them that transmit to an orbiting satellite....the pilots had no control over their continued operation...and they kept sending a signal for up to FOUR hours after transponder was turned off manually.
Sort of like the old style "Lo-jack" that they installed on your vehicle in case it got stolen...even the owner of the car didn't know where the transmitter was placed in the vehicle.
Could the signal continue if the engine was submerged in water?
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The experts I am in contact with tell me that as long as there is one engine running on that plane the engine itself is sending out maintenance data packets and that those cannot be stopped from inside the aircraft. I believe this data is what they are going on right now.
They send out data even if they are not running, as long as power is supplied to the sensors and transponder. The fan blades are so finely balanced that walking past the intakes will set them turning and it is a way of checking the no-load balance. They have to run perfectly, every time. Even a small nick in a single blade of the 300+ in the compression cycle will throw them out significantly.
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Could the signal continue if the engine was submerged in water?
The transmitters are not that strong. Over 100 meters down, and you'd have to be on top of the plane to pick them up.
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From the last link. Just realized the article gets quite detailic. towards the ending. I had thought I read it all.
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Military radar data suggests a Malaysia Airlines jetliner missing for nearly a week was deliberately flown hundreds of miles off course, heightening suspicions of foul play among investigators, sources told Reuters on Friday.
Analysis of the Malaysia data suggests the plane, with 239 people on board, diverted from its intended northeast route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing and flew west instead, using airline flight corridors normally employed for routes to the Middle East and Europe, said sources familiar with investigations into the Boeing 777's disappearance.
Two sources said an unidentified aircraft that investigators believe was Flight MH370 was following a route between navigational waypoints when it was last plotted on military radar off the country's northwest coast.
This indicates that it was either being flown by the pilots or someone with knowledge of those waypoints, the sources said.
The last plot on the military radar's tracking suggested the plane was flying toward India's Andaman Islands, a chain of isles between the Andaman Sea and the Bay of Bengal, they said.
Waypoints are geographic locations, worked out by calculating longitude and latitude, that help pilots navigate along established air corridors.
A third source familiar with the investigation said inquiries were focusing increasingly on the theory that someone who knew how to fly a plane deliberately diverted the flight.
POSSIBLE SABOTAGE OR HIJACK
"What we can say is we are looking at sabotage, with hijack still on the cards," said that source, a senior Malaysian police official.
All three sources declined to be identified because they were not authorized to speak to the media and due to the sensitivity of the investigation.
Officials at Malaysia's Ministry of Transport, the official point of contact for information on the investigation, did not return calls seeking comment.
Malaysian police have previously said they were investigating whether any passengers or crew had personal or psychological problems that might shed light on the mystery, along with the possibility of a hijacking, sabotage or mechanical failure.
As a result of the new evidence, the sources said, multinational search efforts were being stepped up in the Andaman Sea and also the Indian Ocean.
LAST SIGHTING
In one of the most baffling mysteries in modern aviation, no trace of the plane nor any sign of wreckage has been found despite a search by the navies and military aircraft of more than a dozen countries.
The last sighting of the aircraft on civilian radar screens came shortly before 1:30 a.m. Malaysian time last Saturday (1730 GMT Friday), less than an hour after it took off from Kuala Lumpur, as the plane flew northeast across the mouth of the Gulf of Thailand. That put the plane on Malaysia's east coast.
Malaysia's air force chief said on Wednesday an aircraft that could have been the missing plane was plotted on military radar at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island off Malaysia's west coast.
This position marks the limit of Malaysia's military radar in that part of the country, a fourth source familiar with the investigation told Reuters.
When asked about the range of military radar at a news conference on Thursday, Malaysian Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said it was "a sensitive issue" that he was not going to reveal.
"Even if it doesn't extend beyond that, we can get the co-operation of the neighboring countries," he said.
The fact that the aircraft - if it was MH370 - had lost contact with air traffic control and was invisible to civilian radar suggested someone on board had turned off its communication systems, the first two sources said.
They also gave new details on the direction in which the unidentified aircraft was heading - following aviation corridors identified on maps used by pilots as N571 and P628. These routes are taken by commercial planes flying from Southeast Asia to the Middle East or Europe and can be found in public documents issued by regional aviation authorities.
In a far more detailed description of the military radar plotting than has been publicly revealed, the first two sources said the last confirmed position of MH370 was at 35,000 feet about 90 miles off the east coast of Malaysia, heading towards Vietnam, near a navigational waypoint called "Igari". The time was 1:21 a.m..
The military track suggests it then turned sharply westwards, heading towards a waypoint called "Vampi", northeast of Indonesia's Aceh province and a navigational point used for planes following route N571 to the Middle East.
From there, the plot indicates the plane flew towards a waypoint called "Gival", south of the Thai island of Phuket, and was last plotted heading northwest towards another waypoint called "Igrex", on route P628 that would take it over the Andaman Islands and which carriers use to fly towards Europe.
The time was then 2:15 a.m. That is the same time given by the air force chief on Wednesday, who gave no information on that plane's possible direction.
The sources said Malaysia was requesting raw radar data from neighbours Thailand, Indonesia and India, which has a naval base in the Andaman Islands.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/14/exclusive-radar-data-suggests-missing-malaysia-plane-deliberate/20849855/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/14/exclusive-radar-data-suggests-missing-malaysia-plane-deliberate/20849855/)
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So let me get this straight.
The engines had independent, self-contained beacons on them that transmit to an orbiting satellite....the pilots had no control over their continued operation...and they kept sending a signal for up to FOUR hours after transponder was turned off manually.
Sort of like the old style "Lo-jack" that they installed on your vehicle in case it got stolen...even the owner of the car didn't know where the transmitter was placed in the vehicle.
Could the signal continue if the engine was submerged in water?
You basically have it straight. Just guessing here, but so long as the transponder itself can function, it would probably continue to "ping" the satellites even if the engine was submerged in water, so long as the transponder hasn't received a proper shutdown sequence from the aircraft itself.
It seems that after this, none of the transponders or other communications systems should be accessible from within the aircraft and they should all have independent power sources that also cannot be disconnected from within the aircraft.
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Could the signal continue if the engine was submerged in water?
My experience tells me that mixing salt water and electronics spells the death of the electronics almost instantly. Even if the transmitter itself is housed to survive that environment the feeds to it will not be.
I suspect the pings stopped pretty quickly after impact.
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My experience tells me that mixing salt water and electronics spells the death of the electronics almost instantly. Even if the transmitter itself is housed survive that environment the feeds to it will not be.
I suspect the pings stopped pretty quickly after impact.
Hmmm....one would think that considering the amount of hours over open water, that they would construct a water proof/air-tight environment on the equipment.
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You basically have it straight. Just guessing here, but so long as the transponder itself can function, it would probably continue to "ping" the satellites even if the engine was submerged in water, so long as the transponder hasn't received a proper shutdown sequence from the aircraft itself.
It seems that after this, none of the transponders or other communications systems should be accessible from within the aircraft and they should all have independent power sources that also cannot be disconnected from within the aircraft.
You are correct. The engine transponders can not be shut down unless they are physically removed from their reserve power source, there is no facility to switch them off from the cockpit. It is an integral part of the engine and has it's own battery back up. Lifespan of the battery varies from 12 to 20 hours. Not every aircraft has engine transponders, they are normally applied to the first 50 of a new production run.
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Here's an interesting little tidbit from today's updated WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj):
The satellites also received speed and altitude information about the plane from its intermittent "pings," the people said. The final ping was sent from over water, at what one of these people called a normal cruising altitude. They added that it was unclear why the pings stopped. One of the people, an industry official, said it was possible that the system sending them had been disabled by someone on board.
I suppose it could be possible that the aircraft was landed and powered down after the last ping and before the next; otherwise, the above suggests that it crashed after the last ping.
What I'm a little curious about now is what sort of cat-and-mouse game is really being played behind the scenes here? The NTSBA and the FAA must have known that these aircraft continually "pinged" satellites even if the equipment was put in standby, and I would think that checking with Boeing first to see if they had anything before sending out several tens of ships and aircraft and hundreds of people to do a detailed search of the sea under the aircraft's last known civilian radar location.
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Here's an interesting little tidbit from today's updated WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj):
I suppose it could be possible that the aircraft was landed and powered down after the last ping and before the next; otherwise, the above suggests that it crashed after the last ping.
Pings are every 15 minutes, on average (different airlines have different timings.). Landing and shutting down in 15 minutes from 35,000 feet is not exactly likely in a 777. On a normal flight you are at 10,000 feet or so and 40 miles out at 20 minutes to landing.
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Pings are every 15 minutes, on average (different airlines have different timings.). Landing and shutting down in 15 minutes from 35,000 feet is not exactly likely in a 777. On a normal flight you are at 10,000 feet or so and 40 miles out at 20 minutes to landing.
If 15 minutes then obviously it wouldn't happen. I was going with the original info I'd read saying the pings were once an hour. That implies that either someone finally figured out they were pinging and shut that system down, or else the aircraft came apart/blew up/crashed, what have you, within a 15 minute time period. I would assume that an aircraft could gain enough velocity to go from cruising altitude to sea level in less than 15 minutes (disregarding the fact that it wouldn't necessarily be the gentlest of landings when it did reach sea level).
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Here's an interesting little tidbit from today's updated WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj):
I suppose it could be possible that the aircraft was landed and powered down after the last ping and before the next; otherwise, the above suggests that it crashed after the last ping.
What I'm a little curious about now is what sort of cat-and-mouse game is really being played behind the scenes here? The NTSBA and the FAA must have known that these aircraft continually "pinged" satellites even if the equipment was put in standby, and I would think that checking with Boeing first to see if they had anything before sending out several tens of ships and aircraft and hundreds of people to do a detailed search of the sea under the aircraft's last known civilian radar location.
Exactly. I think I asked this earlier in this mess. The Obama admin near an election likes to NOT fess up to ANY folks that are ON THE RUN, ya know.
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Hmmm....one would think that considering the amount of hours over open water, that they would construct a water proof/air-tight environment on the equipment.
Once the aircraft is in the water the engines will no longer be running since they will have been severely damaged. The ENTIRE purpose of THIS particular system is to report performance data on the Engine itself so there would be no point to doing as you suggest.
Once in the water other equipment on the aircraft begins sending out audio pings (once per second) which are easily detected by any sonar equipped vessel in the area.
Naval antisubmarine aircraft can also listen for these sounds but would first have to drop sonobouys into the water. These bouys are built to detect even the faintest of AUDIO signals in water and report what they are hearing to the aircraft circling overhead.
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Missing Malaysian plane: Could it have landed?
From Jethro Mullen, Barbara Starr and Jim Sciutto, CNN
(CNN) -- Yet another theory is taking shape about what might have happened to missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370: Maybe it landed in a remote Indian Ocean island chain.
The suggestion -- and it's only that at this point -- is based on analysis of radar data revealed Friday by Reuters suggesting that the plane wasn't just blindly flying northwest from Malaysia.
Reuters, citing unidentified sources familiar with the investigation, reported that whoever was piloting the vanished jet was following navigational waypoints that would have taken the plane over the Andaman Islands.
The radar data doesn't show the plane over the Andaman Islands, but only on a known route that would take it there, Reuters cited its sources as saying.
Andaman Island reporter: 'No plane here' 'Significant likelihood' plane in ocean
The theory builds on earlier revelations by U.S. officials that an automated reporting system on the airliner was pinging satellites for hours after its last reported contact with air traffic controllers. That makes some investigators think the plane flew on for hours before truly disappearing.
Aviation experts say it's possible, if highly unlikely, that someone could have hijacked and landed the giant Boeing 777 undetected.
But Denis Giles, editor of the Andaman Chronicle newspaper, says there's just nowhere to land such a big plane in his archipelago without attracting notice.
Indian authorities own the only four airstrips in the region, he said.
"There is no chance, no such chance, that any aircraft of this size can come towards Andaman and Nicobar islands and land," he said.
The Malaysian government said Friday it can't confirm the report.
And a senior U.S. official on Thursday offered a conflicting account, telling CNN that "there is probably a significant likelihood" the plane is on the bottom of the Indian Ocean.
Regardless, India has deployed assets from its navy, coast guard and air force to the south Andaman Sea to take part in a search for Flight 370, the country's Ministry of Defense said Friday. The Indian navy is leading the operation, and its Maritime Operations Center in New Delhi is coordinating the effort, the ministry said.
Indian search teams are combing large areas of the archipelago. Two aircraft are searching land and coastal areas of the island chain from north to south, an Indian military spokesman said Friday, and two coast guard ships have been diverted to search along the islands' east coast.
The jetliner, with 239 people on board, disappeared nearly a week ago as it flew between Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and Beijing. The flight has turned into one of the biggest mysteries in aviation history, befuddling industry experts and government officials. Authorities still don't know where the plane is or what caused it to vanish.
Suggestions of what happened have ranged from a catastrophic explosion to hijacking to pilot suicide.
Malaysian officials, who are coordinating the search, said Friday that the hunt for the plane was spreading deeper into both the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea.
"A normal investigation becomes narrower with time, I understand, as new information focuses the search," said Hishammuddin Hussein, the minister in charge of defense and transportation. "But this is not a normal investigation. In this case, the information we have forces us to look further and further afield."
On Friday, the United States sent the destroyer USS Kidd to scout the Indian Ocean as the search expands into that body of water.
"I, like most of the world, really have never seen anything like this," Cmdr. William Marks of the U.S. 7th Fleet told CNN of the scale of the search. "It's pretty incredible."
"It's a completely new game now," he said. "We went from a chess board to a football field."
More on the landing theory
James Kallstrom, a former FBI assistant director, said it's possible the plane could have landed, though he added that more information is needed to reach a definitive conclusion. He referred to the vast search area.
"You draw that arc and you look at countries like Pakistan, you know, and you get into your Superman novels and you see the plane landing somewhere and (people) repurposing it for some dastardly deed down the road," he told CNN's Jake Tapper on Thursday.
"I mean, that's not beyond the realm of realism. I mean, that could happen."
Even so, he acknowledged the difficulty of reaching firm conclusions with scraps of information that sometimes conflict.
"We're getting so much conflicting data," he said. "You veer one way, then you veer the other way. The investigators need some definitive, correct data."
Other developments
On the seventh day of efforts to find the missing Boeing 777-200, here are the other main developments:
• Another lead: Chinese researchers say they recorded a "seafloor event" in waters around Malaysia and Vietnam about an hour and a half after the missing plane's last known contact. The event was recorded in a nonseismic region about 116 kilometers (72 miles) northeast of the plane's last confirmed location, the University of Science and Technology of China said.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?sr=tw031414malaysiaairlines9aVODtop (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?sr=tw031414malaysiaairlines9aVODtop)
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Here's an interesting little tidbit from today's updated WSJ story (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj):
I suppose it could be possible that the aircraft was landed and powered down after the last ping and before the next; otherwise, the above suggests that it crashed after the last ping.
What I'm a little curious about now is what sort of cat-and-mouse game is really being played behind the scenes here? The NTSBA and the FAA must have known that these aircraft continually "pinged" satellites even if the equipment was put in standby, and I would think that checking with Boeing first to see if they had anything before sending out several tens of ships and aircraft and hundreds of people to do a detailed search of the sea under the aircraft's last known civilian radar location.
They probably did exactly that but, as you suggested up thread, that data would not have been of much use to them until all of the math had been worked out and that would take some time!
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Exactly. I think I asked this earlier in this mess. The Obama admin near an election likes to NOT fess up to ANY folks that are ON THE RUN, ya know.
I don't think it's that parochial. Malaysia could have asked Boeing for the data as well, even though Boeing says that Malaysia Airlines didn't sign up to receive the data itself (apparently Boeing always gets the data even if the airline involved doesn't want it). I suspect that the US gov't, various European gov'ts, and possibly the Malaysian gov't, knew about the data and knew where it had gone, but didn't reveal that knowledge because they didn't want to tip their hand to the hijackers that they had a pretty good idea which direction the plane had gone. That would have made it much easier to catch the hijackers if/when they revealed themselves by, for example, making a threat or a demand for ransom.
If that were the case, they would still need the search and rescue effort to take place - and they would need it to take place at the last known good location - or else the hijackers would suspect something was up. My guess is that the information finally became public yesterday because either (a) the governments involved never received any threats or demands from the hijackers and finally concluded that the plane had most likely gone down - it could be as simple as something like the hijackers assuming the plane had more fuel than it actually had and they just ran out of gas over the ocean before they got to their destination - or (b) it became impossible for them to keep it quiet any longer once some journalist dug down deep enough to find the tidbits about the maintenance data being sent to a satellite uplink - which would explain why the first stories alleged that Rolls Royce had been getting data because the typical descriptions of these systems focus on the maintenance and engine-performance uses of the system.
So, as of yesterday, the jig - whatever it was - was up and now the true likely location of the aircraft has been released to the public because either the secrecy is no longer needed or because it can no longer be plausibly maintained.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the governments involved came to the conclusion on Wednesday that the plane had most likely run out of fuel and crashed into the Indian Ocean, which is why they no longer needed to keep the fact of the data transmissions secret any more.
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I don't think it's that parochial. Malaysia could have asked Boeing for the data as well, even though Boeing says that Malaysia Airlines didn't sign up to receive the data itself (apparently Boeing always gets the data even if the airline involved doesn't want it). I suspect that the US gov't, various European gov'ts, and possibly the Malaysian gov't, knew about the data and knew where it had gone, but didn't reveal that knowledge because they didn't want to tip their hand to the hijackers that they had a pretty good idea which direction the plane had gone. That would have made it much easier to catch the hijackers if/when they revealed themselves by, for example, making a threat or a demand for ransom.
If that were the case, they would still need the search and rescue effort to take place - and they would need it to take place at the last known good location - or else the hijackers would suspect something was up. My guess is that the information finally became public yesterday because either (a) the governments involved never received any threats or demands from the hijackers and finally concluded that the plane had most likely gone down - it could be as simple as something like the hijackers assuming the plane had more fuel than it actually had and they just ran out of gas over the ocean before they got to their destination - or (b) it became impossible for them to keep it quiet any longer once some journalist dug down deep enough to find the tidbits about the maintenance data being sent to a satellite uplink - which would explain why the first stories alleged that Rolls Royce had been getting data because the typical descriptions of these systems focus on the maintenance and engine-performance uses of the system.
So, as of yesterday, the jig - whatever it was - was up and now the true likely location of the aircraft has been released to the public because either the secrecy is no longer needed or because it can no longer be plausibly maintained.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the governments involved came to the conclusion on Wednesday that the plane had most likely run out of fuel and crashed into the Indian Ocean, which is why they no longer needed to keep the fact of the data transmissions secret any more.
NOTE TO SELF: Never half joke with Oceander or you will get a complete dissertation and the theory of the calipitor and the calapitor. :laugh:
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Seems to me that if it was the plane they wanted, they'd just steal one off the tarmac in the middle of the night...after neutralizing the control tower.
.....at least that's what Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwartzenegger would do. :laugh:
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Seems to me that if it was the plane they wanted, they'd just steal one off the tarmac in the middle of the night...after neutralizing the control tower.
.....at least that's what Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwartzenegger would do. :laugh:
Or go after a cargo jet. Stealing a cargo jet would be less high-profile and would engender much less of a public outcry and search-and-rescue efforts. You wouldn't even have to go after Fedex, UPS, or DHL, but one of the local or regional freight haulers.
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Seems to me that if it was the plane they wanted, they'd just steal one off the tarmac in the middle of the night...after neutralizing the control tower.
.....at least that's what Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwartzenegger would do. :laugh:
I was thinking this as well. It would alert authorities and eventually the 6th and 7th fleet or the one fleet we have remaining after Obama<----------JOKE
I have not had to travel internationally in awhile but the little bit of domestic I have done I noticed A LOT of mid eastern pilots. So it would be a cake-walk for them to infiltrate as a pilot.
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Malaysia Airliner Communications Shut Down Separately, US Officials Say
http://gma.yahoo.com/malaysia-airliner-kept-pinging-indication-crashed-indian-ocean-194746310--abc-news-topstories.html
Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure.
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down at 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m.
This indicates it may well have been a deliberate act, ABC News aviation consultant John Nance said.
U.S. investigators told ABC News that the two modes of communication were "systematically shut down."
That means the U.S. team "is convinced that there was manual intervention," a source said, which means it was likely not an accident or catastrophic malfunction that took the plane out of the sky.
U.S. officials said earlier that they have an "indication" the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner may have crashed in the Indian Ocean and is moving the USS Kidd to the area to begin searching.
It's not clear what the indication was, but senior administration officials told ABC News the missing Malaysian flight continued to "ping" a satellite on an hourly basis after it lost contact with radar. The Boeing 777 jetliners are equipped with what is called the Airplane Health Management system in which they ping a satellite every hour. The number of pings would indicate how long the plane stayed aloft.
It's not clear, however, whether the satellite pings also indicate the plane's location.
The new information has greatly expanded the potential search area into the Indian Ocean.
"We have an indication the plane went down in the Indian Ocean," the senior Pentagon official said.
The official initially said there were indications that the plane flew four or five hours after disappearing from radar and that they believe it went into the water. Officials later said the plane likely did not fly four or five hours, but did not specify how long it may have been airborne.
White House spokesman Jay Carney said, “It's my understanding that based on some new information that's not necessarily conclusive, but new information, an additional search area may be opened in the Indian Ocean, and we are consulting with international partners about the appropriate assets to deploy.”
Carney did not specify the nature of the “new information.”
Pentagon officials said that the destroyer USS Kidd was being moved to the western part of the strait of Malacca at the request of Malaysia and is heading towards an area where the Indian Ocean and the Andaman Sea meet. The ship has helicopters aboard that can scour the area.
The U.S. action came hours after Malaysian officials said they had extended their search into the Andaman Sea and had requested help from India in the search for the missing plane and its 239 passengers.
Investigators also said today that U.S. officials gave them reasons to keep searching the waters west of Malaysia, far from the flight path of the Malaysia Airlines plane.
Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that the search’s “main focus has always been in the South China Sea,” which is east of Malaysia and along the plane’s route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
But the search was extended earlier this week to include water far to the west on the other side of Malaysia.
“We are working very closely with the FAA and the NTSB on the issue of a possible air turn back,” Hishammuddin said, referring to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.
“They have indicated to us that based on the information given by the Malaysian authorities, they — being the FAA and NTSB — the U.S. team was of the view that there was reasonable ground for the Malaysian authorities to deploy resources to conduct search on the western side of the peninsula of Malaysia. Under the circumstances, it is appropriate to conduct the search even if the evidence suggests there is a possibility of finding a minor evidence to suggest that ... the aircraft would have been there.”
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I just can’t see it being stolen and landed in any location on the planet without it being seen by someone, or its signature showing up again on ground radar. And if it was how do you hide something that big so long? It just not plausible. I think the answer is a lot more simple, the initial search area was around 2000 miles off of where it actually crashed. There is a lot of water and ground yet to search. Eventually something will be found.
The motive of a deliberate crash will be a lot harder to understand. I would bet the flight crew is having their computers, social media, and phone records gone through for any clue, such as suicide, extortion, terrorism, etc.
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Seems to me that if it was the plane they wanted, they'd just steal one off the tarmac in the middle of the night...after neutralizing the control tower.
.....at least that's what Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwartzenegger would do. :laugh:
The Barefoot Bandit was able to steal planes a lot eaiser than that. I agree, stealing a plane mid flight full of passengers for the purposes of using it later for an EMP or another 9/11 is a plot left for a dumb Hollywood movie.
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I just can’t see it being stolen and landed in any location on the planet without it being seen by someone, or its signature showing up again on ground radar. And if it was how do you hide something that big so long? It just not plausible. I think the answer is a lot more simple, the initial search area was around 2000 miles off of where it actually crashed. There is a lot of water and ground yet to search. Eventually something will be found.
The motive of a deliberate crash will be a lot harder to understand. I would bet the flight crew is having their computers, social media, and phone records gone through for any clue, such as suicide, extortion, terrorism, etc.
I agree, as well as the passengers. I tend to think if the passengers had a clue about what was going on, they would fight back. If so, that leads me to believe one or both pilots were in cahoots.
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The plane took off at 12.41 am so most of the passengers were probably sleeping or trying to at that point into the flight, and may have not noticed anything. They couldn't see anything out the window, and if it was a slow desent before it crashed or took a nose dive, there was probably no action they could take.
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With the tracking devices being manually shut off my suspicions are narrowing in on the First Officer - Fariq Ab Hamid, a 27-year-old Malaysian.
Bingo.. And really low flying hours, too... I am suspecting he is an AQ trainee plant... remember Bojinka (sp) they never give up on something, just plan and bide their time.
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I just can’t see it being stolen and landed in any location on the planet without it being seen by someone, or its signature showing up again on ground radar. And if it was how do you hide something that big so long? It just not plausible. I think the answer is a lot more simple, the initial search area was around 2000 miles off of where it actually crashed. There is a lot of water and ground yet to search. Eventually something will be found.
The motive of a deliberate crash will be a lot harder to understand. I would bet the flight crew is having their computers, social media, and phone records gone through for any clue, such as suicide, extortion, terrorism, etc.
Would you agree that by now as many of our national orbital reconnaissance assets as possible are trained on that entire segment of the planet?? It takes time to change the orbits and configure the satellite(s), more time to do an actual photo run and then more time still for a set of Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeballs to look at the take and make sense of anything there is to see.
I think a lot of people are just amazed that there really are still areas of the world where you can go lost without a trace. But then again, what does anyone really expect of Vietnam's radar system, or Malaysia's, Indonesia's or any other country in that area of the world. There are vast stretches of the Indian Ocean and the Southern Ocean that are completely out of touch and where even radio signals can be a challenge.
I do agree that you cannot land a 777 just anywhere, nor can you easily conceal one if you did land it. And when a jet that big lands in the water it puts all kinds of floating trash in the water when it breaks up, and it would definitely break up if you ditched it.
Not sure what is going on but it is getting mysteriouser and mysteriouser......
:shrug:
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Would you agree that by now as many of our national orbital reconnaissance assets as possible are trained on that entire segment of the planet?? It takes time to change the orbits and configure the satellite(s), more time to do an actual photo run and then more time still for a set of Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeballs to look at the take and make sense of anything there is to see.
I think a lot of people are just amazed that there really are still areas of the world where you can go lost without a trace. But then again, what does anyone really expect of Vietnam's radar system, or Malaysia's, Indonesia's or any other country in that area of the world. There are vast stretches of the Indian Ocean and the Southern Ocean that are completely out of touch and where even radio signals can be a challenge.
I do agree that you cannot land a 777 just anywhere, nor can you easily conceal one if you did land it. And when a jet that big lands in the water it puts all kinds of floating trash in the water when it breaks up, and it would definitely break up if you ditched it.
Not sure what is going on but it is getting mysteriouser and mysteriouser......
:shrug:
If the plane hit the water we would see bodies or very fat sharks.
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If the plane hit the water we would see bodies or very fat sharks.
yes...and insulation, fiberglass panels, seat cushions, papers, clothing, luggage and all manner of flotsam. Even if they ditched it deliberately, I cannot see how you get past ripping the engines right off the wings as soon as they touch the water. And after seven days in the water just wave action would continue to break it up.
Wasn't it exactly that kind of debris that led to the finding of that Air France flight that went down in the South Atlantic a couple of years ago?? As I recall that took an inordinate amount of time to locate as well.
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Would you agree that by now as many of our national orbital reconnaissance assets as possible are trained on that entire segment of the planet?? It takes time to change the orbits and configure the satellite(s), more time to do an actual photo run and then more time still for a set of Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeballs to look at the take and make sense of anything there is to see.
I think a lot of people are just amazed that there really are still areas of the world where you can go lost without a trace. But then again, what does anyone really expect of Vietnam's radar system, or Malaysia's, Indonesia's or any other country in that area of the world. There are vast stretches of the Indian Ocean and the Southern Ocean that are completely out of touch and where even radio signals can be a challenge.
I do agree that you cannot land a 777 just anywhere, nor can you easily conceal one if you did land it. And when a jet that big lands in the water it puts all kinds of floating trash in the water when it breaks up, and it would definitely break up if you ditched it.
Not sure what is going on but it is getting mysteriouser and mysteriouser......
:shrug:
Getting us to retask some satellites for this is one of many things the people who did it might potentially be trying to accomplish!
Just my suspicious nature maybe but that's what I would be thinking if it were my job.
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Getting us to retask some satellites for this is one of many things the people who did it might potentially be trying to accomplish!
Just my suspicious nature maybe but that's what I would be thinking if it were my job.
Brother, you are retired. :laugh:
Though I figure you are right.
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yes...and insulation, fiberglass panels, seat cushions, papers, clothing, luggage and all manner of flotsam. Even if they ditched it deliberately, I cannot see how you get past ripping the engines right off the wings as soon as they touch the water. And after seven days in the water just wave action would continue to break it up.
Wasn't it exactly that kind of debris that led to the finding of that Air France flight that went down in the South Atlantic a couple of years ago?? As I recall that took an inordinate amount of time to locate as well.
A pilot said a plane dove from 35,000 feet nose first into the ocean would basically vaporize :shrug: :shrug:
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A pilot said a plane dove from 35,000 feet nose first into the ocean would basically vaporize :shrug: :shrug:
There would be severe destruction of the aircraft, but there are pieces which would survive. Other than the data recorders, the tail fin likely would as would the main wing box structure. Materials which do not really take damage from sudden deceleration would survive, such as seat cushions, a lot of typical luggage components, etc. and most of those also float.
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A pilot said a plane dove from 35,000 feet nose first into the ocean would basically vaporize :shrug: :shrug:
Pure nonsense. You cannot destroy matter, and hitting the ocean would not generate enough force to vaporize much more than a tiny bit of ocean water.
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So around the time they shut down the transponders the plane rose to 45,000 feet and then dove to 23,000 feet and went in a zig-zag pattern before they lost track of it.
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So around the time they shut down the transponders the plane rose to 45,000 feet and then dove to 23,000 feet and went in a zig-zag pattern before they lost track of it.
Exactly. Right before it vaporized..........................
:smokin:
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So around the time they shut down the transponders the plane rose to 45,000 feet and then dove to 23,000 feet and went in a zig-zag pattern before they lost track of it.
That's one "report."
Another is it dropped 40,000 feet in 60 seconds.
Another says the Chinese detected a "seismic event" where the aircraft originally disappeared. (Given the seismic history of that region, I would not read much into it.)
The truth is, no one seems to have a clue, and those who do, are not talking.
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Exactly. Right before it vaporized..........................
:smokin:
Mock me all you want, they showed the stats on O'Reilly tonight and Greta earlier.
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A UK based satellite company received pings from the jet after it "went dark"
Climbed to 45,000 (oxgen masks would have come out and once oxygen quit the passengers would have died) then it made a U turn and made a lefts and rights, going up and down and and dropped down to the 20,000 level........
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confirmation of the sequential shutdown of the tracking equipment
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Pilots telling Megyn Kelly that heavy of plane would struggle once past 38,000 because the spread is about 10 mph at that altitude
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Do you think all the passengers were intentionally asphyxiated? I hope not, but why else would they go so high?
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Do you think all the passengers were intentionally asphyxia? I hope not, but why else would they go so high?
Sounds like it. What better way for them to not fight you to take back control of the plane.
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The erratic flying would have been from trying to control the plane at that high an altitude - which all the experts on the panel Megyn Kelly has on are saying would have been difficult at that altitude... General McInerny thinks the drop to 23,000 possibly was trying to gain control over the plane and then they got control and climbed back to 29,000
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A UK based satellite company received pings from the jet after it "went dark"
Climbed to 45,000 (oxgen masks would have come out and once oxygen quit the passengers would have died) then it made a U turn and made a lefts and rights, going up and down and and dropped down to the 20,000 level........
The O2 system for passengers lasts about 15 minutes. Even after that, people wouldn't die in an instant. It takes time to die from hypoxia. The cabin staff have their own O2 bottles, which last longer. The pilots have a separate O2 system which lasts in most cases well over an hour.
The 777 is designed to cruise at just over 43,000 feet.
The question is, how long were they flying at 45,000?
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The co-pilot only recently graduated into the cockpit. He's described as "a good Muslim"
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There would be severe destruction of the aircraft, but there are pieces which would survive. Other than the data recorders, the tail fin likely would as would the main wing box structure. Materials which do not really take damage from sudden deceleration would survive, such as seat cushions, a lot of typical luggage components, etc. and most of those also float.
BTW someone said yesterday that no one is talking about what might have been in the cargo of this plane - for instance were they transporting Gold to China???
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BTW someone said yesterday that no one is talking about what might have been in the cargo of this plane - for instance were they transporting Gold to China???
It's also possible that the cargo was nothing special and not even worth mentioning.
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USA is more involved which is why we are finally receiving more data.
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BTW someone said yesterday that no one is talking about what might have been in the cargo of this plane - for instance were they transporting Gold to China???
A significant cargo of lithium batteries. Apparently there have been a number of accidents, mostly with cargo planes, involving lithium batteries that start a fire; however, that has been discounted because of the fact that the airplane kept flying for so long after its transponders were turned off.
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Apropos of nothing, I personally am getting a little tired of the repeated, and baseless, slurs against someone just because that person happens to be a practicing muslim. That doesn't help anyone or anything and done often enough starts to make this place look a little crack-potty.
V. Putin is a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church; does that mean that all members of the Russian Orthodox Church are tyrants with designs on their neighbors' property?
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USA is more involved which is why we are finally receiving more data.
Don't know if it went to the Bay of Bengal or the China Sea........
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USA is more involved which is why we are finally receiving more data.
There's someone scooting around D.C. these days who was raised in Indonesia.
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A significant cargo of lithium batteries. Apparently there have been a number of accidents, mostly with cargo planes, involving lithium batteries that start a fire; however, that has been discounted because of the fact that the airplane kept flying for so long after its transponders were turned off.
A lithium battery fire would have started slow and the crew would have known there was a problem due to fire warnings from the cargo hold. However, after a few minutes, lithium battery fires begin a runway process and you get a rapidly growing fire that the cargo hold suppression system cannot handle. Such a fire would have destroyed the aircraft in probably 10 minutes or less.
This is why they are banned as cargo from US passenger aircraft.
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A lithium battery fire would have started slow and the crew would have known there was a problem due to fire warnings from the cargo hold. However, after a few minutes, lithium battery fires begin a runway process and you get a rapidly growing fire that the cargo hold suppression system cannot handle. Such a fire would have destroyed the aircraft in probably 10 minutes or less.
This is why they are banned as cargo from US passenger aircraft.
exactly, which I believe is why the investigators have discounted that possibility now given that we have proof the plane continued flying for several hours after it "disappeared."
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Fox alert.. Malaysia is now saying the plane was hijacked.
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Greta Van Susteren @gretawire 1m
Breaking news: Malaysian investigators conclude plane hijacked by pilot or other - see http://gretawire.com
Expand
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INVESTIGATORS have concluded that one or more people with significant flying experience hijacked the missing Malaysia Airlines jet, switched off communication devices and steered it off-course, a Malaysian government official involved in the investigation said this afternoon.
The claim comes after seven days of fruitless searches for Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, and after revelations suggesting the plane made several course corrections after the cockpit’s last known contact with air traffic control.
The official, who is involved in the investigation, told the Associated Press no motive has been established, and it is not yet clear where the plane was taken. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to brief the media.
The official said that hijacking was no longer a theory. “It is conclusive,’’ he added.
Malaysia’s prime minister is expected to brief the media later today.
The Boeing 777’s communication with the ground was severed under one hour into its flight March 8 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. Malaysian officials have said radar data suggest it may have turned back and crossed back over the Malaysian peninsula westward, after setting out toward the Chinese capital.
The New York Times reported that radar signals recorded by the Malaysian military appear to show the plane ascending to 45,000 feet and making a sharp turn to the right not long after it disappeared from civilian radar.
Forty-five thousand feet is above the approved altitude limit for a Boeing 777-200.
The information comes from “a preliminary assessment by a person familiar with the data”, the paper said.
he same data suggests the plane descended to 23,000 feet as it approached the Malaysian island of Penang, but then re-ascended and flew northwest over the Straits of Malacca.
CNN is reporting that authorities think the plane may have gone in one of two directions after it passed through the Straits of Malacca: either northwest, towards the Bay of Bengal and the coast of India, or southwest, out into the expanse of the Indian Ocean.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/world/malaysia-confirms-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-was-hijacked/story-fni0xs63-1226855315871
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More and more people are starting to ask what was in the cargo hold... were did this flight originate? Did it travel to South Africa by any chance?
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South Africa would have required a fuel stop.
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The latest reports say that the last pings from the aircraft likely put it to the west of Perth, Australia.
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South Africa would have required a fuel stop.
That is why I asked, did this plane fly from S.Africa to Malaysia before continuing on to China? A lot of gold mining going on in South Africa these days.
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That is why I asked, did this plane fly from S.Africa to Malaysia before continuing on to China? A lot of gold mining going on in South Africa these days.
No idea where it came from before. I can ask on some of the aviation forums.
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No idea where it came from before. I can ask on some of the aviation forums.
Just curious. If they didn't crash the plane and they have not said the plane is being held for ransom, then the only other thing is something very valuable was on the plane and they wanted it.
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 9m
Press conference now 10 minutes late. Malaysian PM and senior officials as well as foreign diplomats are there. Big news expected
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 4m
BREAKING -- CCTV: Malaysian PM to disclose "new development" on missing airliner, airline says
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 22m
Diplomats from Japan, Russia, Brunei, China and India arrive for Malaysia press conference - via @Stone_SkyNews
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raw feed link
http://www.livestation.com/reuters?source=redirect
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 42m
The Star newspaper: Malaysian PM Najib Razak met families of Flight 370 victims before upcoming news conference
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Press conference live stream.
http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters
The link below has been a good source for now, but as always, we know how many "reports" have turned out to be bogus.
http://english.astroawani.com/
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 53s
Press conference delay is due "tight security checks" on press - Straits Times
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 1h
The upcoming press conference by PM Najib Razak on missing airliner is his first since the incident
Expand
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starting now - will not take any questions......
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 48s
Malaysian PM Najib Razak will read statement, questions to be submitted for a later press conference
PM won't be taking questions
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Better link, from Sky News.
http://news.sky.com/templates/watch-live
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Malaysian PM will read statement shortly and then there will be a 5:30 p.m. local presser for "technical" information
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CNN, Fox, and PMSNBC are all on reruns.
A nuke could go off in New York and they wouldn't break in for it this late @ night.
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CNN, Fox, and PMSNBC are all on reruns.
A nuke could go off in New York and they wouldn't break in for it this late @ night.
Yep.. I'm on mute on TV and watching the sky news link you gave, it is better.
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 6m
U.S. confirms U.S. search efforts today focusing on Bay of Bengal and northern section of Strait of Malacca http://bnowire.com/inbox/?id=2233
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 8m
ABC News: Doctor says families of Flight 370 passengers to watch PM's press conference on TV, psychiatric staff on standby
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When is the Presser?
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When is the Presser?
Now
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NewsBreaker @NewsBreaker 53s
Malaysian PM: "14 countries, 43 ships, 58 aircraft involved in the search." RT @KFINEWS: #MH370 pic.twitter.com/QzOwGhq4OG
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This PM is easier to listen to than Obama........ good English.
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 1m
Malaysian PM: We have a responsibility to the investigation and the families to only release information that has been corroborated
Between Malaysia and Vietnam the transponder switched off and it turned back and flew Westerly over peninsula of Malaysia and then turned West...... all consistent with deliberate actions.
Today with satellite data they can confirm the aircraft was in fact the missing plane. FAA, NTSB, NSA and Malaysian authorities all concur with this data.
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Search area From Northern Thailand to Kazakhstan and from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean.....
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Color Me Read @ColorMeRed 40s
Evidence is consistent with someone acting deliberately from inside plane, said Malaysia's Prime Minister Najib Rahman.via @cnnbrk
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Color Me Read @ColorMeRed 35s
CONFIRMED: Malaysian authorities have refocused on the passengers and crew on #MH370.via @airchive
Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 1m
Malaysian PM Najib Razak says search operations ending in South China Sea
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UN Lede @unlede 1m
Malaysia PM: last #MH370 contact was either btwn Kazakhstan and Thailand or btwn Indonesia and Southern Indian Ocean. Impossible large area
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 2m
Malaysian PM Najib Razak says search operations ending in South China Sea
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 44s
Press conference over, next press conference at 5:30 p.m. local
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Hmm Kazakhstan...... wouldn't there be a lot of isolated placed they could land a plane there??
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Thank you, Rap, for keeping the thread updated. :beer:
A skilled pilot could put a 777 down on any flat bit of land that is at least a mile long, with a reasonable chance of it landing and staying in one piece. They are built pretty tough, especially the undercarriage. Even an isolated chunk of road would do.
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Patrick Dollard @PatDollard 25s
In Pakistan?: Investigators Conclude #MH370 Highjacked ‘Using Normal Flight Paths’ http://bit.ly/1e2kPTr #tcot
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Hmm Kazakhstan...... wouldn't there be a lot of isolated placed they could land a plane there??
There would be countless old Soviet air force bases.
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There would be countless old Soviet air force bases.
Yep...........
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Biv6AWzIgAAlFeU.jpg)
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So they "could" have been trying to head to Iran....... (look at the map I posted)
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We will see this plane as a delivery method.
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Color Me Read @ColorMeRed 2m
Malaysian PM confirmed last satellite communication was at 8:11 a.m., nearly 7 hours after plane went missing via @mpoppel
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Breaking News @NewsNerve 6m
Communication was last heard by satellite at 8:11 am Saturday. 7 hours after we thought before. Before thought was 1:07 am #MH370 #Flight370
SBS News @SBSNews 7m
BREAKING Malaysian PM: "high degree of certainty" that MH 370 was hijacked - search now expanded to include Turkmenistan.
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Mohd Najib Tun Razak @NajibRazak 2m
This will help us to refine the search.Due to the type of satellite data,we r unable 2 confirm the precise location of the plane ...-Admin
Investigations team is making further calculations which will indicate hw far d aircraft may hv flown after this last point of contact-Admin
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Michael van Poppel @mpoppel 11m
New confirmed info means plane was still flying when Malaysia Airlines issued statement saying contact was lost with Flight 370
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Michelle Malkin @michellemalkin 19m
Bottom line on #MH370 press conference: Holy. Crap.
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Following copied from online discussion. (Underlining added by me)
On the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, the Boeing 777; (I've got over 26 years in USAF Air Traffic Control and 5 years with the FAA) , the ELTs never went off.
I'm of the frame of mind the plane landed safely at a bare base under Muslim Brotherhood control.
The "Shoot Down" theory would have activated the (ELT) Emergency Locator Transmitter, and, unless within the first 5 mins of the hour Zulu time, would have been noticed.
Even within the first 5 minutes, satellites would have pinpointed a lat/long location after the 3rd sweep of the ELT.
We don't have the ELT location from the satellite system, so I don't believe it crashed or ditched into the water.
If it was blown up, the ELTs would have been activated and on battery power, they would have "transmitted pings" all the way down to the ground or if into the water all the way down through the water to the bottom.
They would transmit until the batteries run down, normally three days to a week. ELTs have survived many crashes and explosions, because they are designed to do just that.
My first thought of where to look would be any abandoned air strip left by any military in the Phillipeans.
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Following copied from online discussion. (Underlining added by me)
On the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, the Boeing 777; (I've got over 26 years in USAF Air Traffic Control and 5 years with the FAA) , the ELTs never went off.
I'm of the frame of mind the plane landed safely at a bare base under Muslim Brotherhood control.
The "Shoot Down" theory would have activated the (ELT) Emergency Locator Transmitter, and, unless within the first 5 mins of the hour Zulu time, would have been noticed.
Even within the first 5 minutes, satellites would have pinpointed a lat/long location after the 3rd sweep of the ELT.
We don't have the ELT location from the satellite system, so I don't believe it crashed or ditched into the water.
If it was blown up, the ELTs would have been activated and on battery power, they would have "transmitted pings" all the way down to the ground or if into the water all the way down through the water to the bottom.
They would transmit until the batteries run down, normally three days to a week. ELTs have survived many crashes and explosions, because they are designed to do just that.
My first thought of where to look would be any abandoned air strip left by any military in the Phillipeans.
I have a very bad feeling about this. Are they looking for a delivery method and if so what type of delivery and where? After refueling they could go about anywhere.
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If they are looking as far as Kazakhstan if you look at the map Iran isn't that much further.
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I have a very bad feeling about this. Are they looking for a delivery method and if so what type of delivery and where? After refueling they could go about anywhere.
Pretty much. They have an unloaded (fully fueled) range of 17,000 kilometers.
If it was taken, you can color the passengers dead. They would be an inconvenience.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4499221,00.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Malaysian police search home of missing plane's pilot
Published: 03.15.14, 10:11 / Israel News
Police began searching the home of the pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines flight on Saturday, after the country's prime minister confirmed the plane was suspected to have been deliberately diverted, a senior police official told Reuters.
Police officers arrived at the home of the captain, 53-year-old Zaharie Ahmad Shah, on Saturday afternoon, shortly after Prime Minister Najib Razak ended his news conference. (Reuters)
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I'd suspect the co-pilot more than this veteran pilot.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4499221,00.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Malaysian police search home of missing plane's pilot
Published: 03.15.14, 10:11 / Israel News
Police began searching the home of the pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines flight on Saturday, after the country's prime minister confirmed the plane was suspected to have been deliberately diverted, a senior police official told Reuters.
Police officers arrived at the home of the captain, 53-year-old Zaharie Ahmad Shah, on Saturday afternoon, shortly after Prime Minister Najib Razak ended his news conference. (Reuters)
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I'd suspect the co-pilot more than this veteran pilot.
why?
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Pretty much. They have an unloaded (fully fueled) range of 17,000 kilometers.
If it was taken, you can color the passengers dead. They would be an inconvenience.
I don't know where my head has been in this from the beginning! I should have snapped to the fact that there have been no Emergency Locator Beacons heard ANYWHERE and if there had been any sort of a catastrophic event they would have been screaming like banshees all over the place! Never even thought about them until last night when I read the stuff I copied and pasted here!
Feel like a TOTAL idiot this morning!
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4499221,00.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Malaysian police search home of missing plane's pilot
Published: 03.15.14, 10:11 / Israel News
Police began searching the home of the pilot of the missing Malaysia Airlines flight on Saturday, after the country's prime minister confirmed the plane was suspected to have been deliberately diverted, a senior police official told Reuters.
Police officers arrived at the home of the captain, 53-year-old Zaharie Ahmad Shah, on Saturday afternoon, shortly after Prime Minister Najib Razak ended his news conference. (Reuters)
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I'd suspect the co-pilot more than this veteran pilot.
ORLY? Why is that? What makes you think they were not both involved?? Why do you think it unreasonable to investigate the two most likely people onboard that plane who had all of the requisite skills to fly a 777, especially considering everything that has gone on to date??
geez!
:smokin:
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People are pointing at the co-pilot because he has a limited history and just graduated to the pilot seat. But he is young. The older pilot while a little more seemingly innocuous is also under suspicion as he had a flight simulator at home
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/15/article-2581488-1C50AA4D00000578-6_634x457.jpg)
http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/mh370-pilot-aviation-junkie-flight-simulator-set-home-0 (http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/mh370-pilot-aviation-junkie-flight-simulator-set-home-0)
http://www.examiner.com/article/malaysia-airline-flight-pilot-flight-simulator-home (http://www.examiner.com/article/malaysia-airline-flight-pilot-flight-simulator-home)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwsml_qmaUw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwsml_qmaUw)
http://news.in.msn.com/international/british-satellite-received-signals-from-missing-malaysian-plane (http://news.in.msn.com/international/british-satellite-received-signals-from-missing-malaysian-plane)
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I just can’t see it being stolen and landed in any location on the planet without it being seen by someone, or its signature showing up again on ground radar. And if it was how do you hide something that big so long? It just not plausible. I think the answer is a lot more simple, the initial search area was around 2000 miles off of where it actually crashed. There is a lot of water and ground yet to search. Eventually something will be found.
The motive of a deliberate crash will be a lot harder to understand. I would bet the flight crew is having their computers, social media, and phone records gone through for any clue, such as suicide, extortion, terrorism, etc.
Going to quote my last post. If indeed the suspicion is true and it did land, then this plot is a lot bigger and involves a lot more people than just the two on the flight deck of that A/P. People on the ground have to be involved. Could this have been something planned originally for Sochi, but because of the tight security pushed to a later date?
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Assuming for a moment there are continuing nefarious plans... wouldn't a cargo plane have sufficed?
Frightening possibilities if that thing is on the ground somewhere - intact.
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Pondering this some more, and again assuming nefarious intent. The bad guys will need to move quickly, won't they? Every minute that passes increases the risk of discovery.
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The latest via the Washington Post this morning....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/jet-was-hijacked-malaysian-official-tells-ap/2014/03/15/ec7397d6-abff-11e3-af5f-4c56b834c4bf_print.html
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said Saturday that a missing passenger jet was steered off course after its communications systems were intentionally disabled and could have potentially flown for seven additional hours.
In the most comprehensive account to date of the plane’s fate, Najib drew an ominous picture of what happened aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370, saying investigators had determined there was “deliberate action by someone on the plane.”
Najib said the investigation had “refocused” to look at the crew and passengers. A Malaysia Airlines representative, speaking to relatives of passengers in Beijing, said the Malaysian government had opened a criminal investigation into the plane’s disappearance.
(See: New map shows possible paths for the Malaysia Airlines flight.)
The plane’s whereabouts remain unknown one week after it disappeared from civilian radar shortly after takeoff from Kuala Lumpur. But Najib, citing newly analyzed satellite data, said the plane could have flown along two paths: one stretching from northern Thailand toward the Kazakhstan-Turkmenistan border, the other, more southern path stretching from Indonesia to the remote Indian Ocean.
Although U.S. officials previously said they believed the plane could have remained in the air for several extra hours, Najib said Saturday that the flight was still communicating with satellites until 8:11 a.m. — seven and a half hours after takeoff, and more than 90 minutes after it was due in Beijing. There was no further communication with the plane after that time, Najib said. If the plane was still in the air, it would have been nearing its fuel limit.
“Due to the type of satellite data,” Najib said, “we are unable to confirm the precise location of the plane when it last made contact with the satellite.”
The new leads about the plane’s path, though ambiguous, have drastically changed a search operation involving more than a dozen nations. Malaysia on Saturday said that efforts would be terminated in the Gulf of Thailand and the South China Sea, the spot where the plane first disappeared from civilian radar.
Malaysian authorities are now likely to look for help from other countries in Southeast and South Asia, seeking mysterious or unidentified readings that their radar systems might have picked up.
If the plane traveled along the southern path, according to a document provided by the Malaysian government, it would have spent nearly all of its flight time over the Indian Ocean as it headed to an area west of Australia. But if the plane traveled the northern path, it would present a more perplexing scenario: that it evaded detection for hours while flying through a volatile region where airspace is heavily monitored: Myanmar, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan and western China are all in the neighborhood of that path, as is the United States’ Bagram Airfield, which is in Afghanistan.
“Given the strong radar system that we have, and also that India and other countries in the region have, it’s very difficult for a plane to fly undetected for so long,” said Abid Qaimkhan, a spokesman for Pakistan’s Civil Aviation Authority. He added that Pakistan has not yet been asked by Malaysia to share its radar data, but will provide it if asked.
Malaysia has confirmed that a previously unknown blip picked up by its military radar was indeed MH370. That blip suggests the plane had cut west, across the Malaysian peninsula, after severing contact with the ground. Malaysia received help in analyzing that radar data from the United States’ National Transportation Safety Board, Federal Aviation Administration, and the British Air Accident Investigation Branch.
Malaysian investigators now believe that the Boeing-777 airliner, bound for Beijing with 227 passengers, deliberately cut a series of communications systems as it headed toward the boundary of Malaysian airspace. U.S. officials and aviation experts say the plane could have been hijacked by somebody with aviation knowledge or sabotaged by a crew member.
Investigators have not yet presented a clear scenario of what could have happened on board. Reuters reported that Malaysian police on Saturday searched the home of the plane’s captain, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, who had more than three decades of commercial flight experience. A senior Malaysian police official refused to confirm the search.
Zaharie had a flight simulator at his home, something that appeared in a YouTube video posted from his unconfirmed YouTube account. Malaysia Airlines chief executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said Friday that “everyone is free to do their own hobby” and that it isn’t unusual for pilots to have home simulators.
U.S. officials have said that the plane, shortly after being diverted, reached an altitude of 45,000 feet and “jumped around a lot.” But the airplane otherwise appeared to operate normally. Significantly, the transponder and a satellite-based communication system did not stop at the same time, as they would if the plane had exploded, disintegrated or crashed into the ocean.
Najib said Saturday that the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or ACARS, was disabled just as MH370 reached the eastern coast of Malaysia. The transponder was then switched off, Najib said, as the aircraft neared the border between Malaysian and Vietnamese airspace.
According to the Malaysian government, a satellite that tracked the aircraft was located more than 22,000 miles above sea level. Even after the ACARS system was disconnected, the satellite still received some basic signal from the plane — what one U.S. official described as a “handshake.” Though no data was being transmitted, the satellite continued to reach out to the plane on an hourly basis and received confirmation that the plane was still flying.
“There’s no circuit breaker that would allow you to shut off the handshake,” the official said.
That satellite handshake took place on a system operated by Inmarsat, a British satellite company that provides global mobile telecommunications services.
U.S. officials declined to say how closely that handshake allowed them to track the path of the missing plane.
Najib said Saturday that the search for MH370 had entered a “new phase.” The U.S. Navy, already positioned to the west of the Malaysian peninsula, was planning to meet tonight to discuss whether and how to redeploy its assets, spokesman Cmdr. William Marks said.
Indian officials said Saturday morning that they were still awaiting new orders in response to the Malaysian prime minister’s statement that the official search focus shift from the South China Sea to the two “corridors” west of Malaysia.
“Nothing is certain. These are all probabilities,” said Captain D.K. Sharma, a spokesman for the India Navy. “Let the new orders come. Let’s see how we respond.”
India has now expanded its search from the area around the Andaman and Nicobar Islands — where five vessels and four planes have been deployed — to the north and west, by adding four additional aircraft to scour the massive Bay of Bengal — two P-8I anti-submarine and electronic intelligence planes and three other military aircraft, including a C-130J and two Dorniers. Search teams from the Indian military had spent much of the day Friday searching the jungles on remote islands of the Andaman and Nicobar archipelago, most of which are uninhabited, but so far have come up empty.
Other nations along the Bay of Bengal are now the expanding search as well. Gowher Rizvi, an adviser to Bangladesh’s prime minister Sheikh Hasina, said that country had deployed two aircraft and two frigates in the Bay of Bengal.
Harlan reported from Kuala Lumpur, and Gowen reported from New Delhi. Liu Liu contributed from Beijing. Tim Craig contributed from Pakistan, Adam Goldman and Sari Horwitz contributed from Washington and Rama Lakshmi contributed from New Delhi.
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Going to quote my last post. If indeed the suspicion is true and it did land, then this plot is a lot bigger and involves a lot more people than just the two on the flight deck of that A/P. People on the ground have to be involved. Could this have been something planned originally for Sochi, but because of the tight security pushed to a later date?
It sounds like a lot more were involved on the ground; they would have to have been. A brief look into the past...
Exclusive: Iran hijacked US drone, says Iranian engineer (Video)
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1215/Exclusive-Iran-hijacked-US-drone-says-Iranian-engineer-Video/(page)/2 (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1215/Exclusive-Iran-hijacked-US-drone-says-Iranian-engineer-Video/(page)/2)
Report: Iran, Russia discuss adding nuclear plants - The Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/report-iran-russia-discuss-adding-nuclear-plants/2014/03/12/a2bbc760-aa08-11e3-8a7b-c1c684e2671f_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/report-iran-russia-discuss-adding-nuclear-plants/2014/03/12/a2bbc760-aa08-11e3-8a7b-c1c684e2671f_story.html)
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I don't know where my head has been in this from the beginning! I should have snapped to the fact that there have been no Emergency Locator Beacons heard ANYWHERE and if there had been any sort of a catastrophic event they would have been screaming like banshees all over the place! Never even thought about them until last night when I read the stuff I copied and pasted here!
Feel like a TOTAL idiot this morning!
No need to feel that way, buddy.
I have been quiet on this matter simply due to all of the speculating that is being done. The fact is that there is a missing flight but there is nothing concrete beyond that.
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The other developing tidbit in this drama is that the majority of the passengers on that plane were Chinese citizens heading home via Beijing, and the Chinese Government is getting increasingly impatient with the slow progress on this.
And it is my understanding that it is not unusual for many airline pilots to have sophisticated PC based flight simulators.
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.
Way off topic. Love the avatar (and the team)!
Back to missing airplanes.
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I don't know where my head has been in this from the beginning! I should have snapped to the fact that there have been no Emergency Locator Beacons heard ANYWHERE and if there had been any sort of a catastrophic event they would have been screaming like banshees all over the place! Never even thought about them until last night when I read the stuff I copied and pasted here!
Feel like a TOTAL idiot this morning!
That actually came up a couple of days ago when a Malaysian fishing vessel tried to recover what might have been an inflatable life raft. Most if not all rafts have an automatic beacon attached that can be salt-water activated, and I saw mention then that there had been no beacons received at all, and since none have been reported since I assume there never have been any beacons of any kind. No pinging from a black box in the ocean either, and I am sure someone is listening for that as well.
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Question......
How low an altitude can a 777 'safely' fly with a door or passenger door(s) open?
Think that perhaps when the plane rose to over 40,000 feet, all the passengers were purposely suffocated....then they threw them into the Indian Ocean before they landed it.
At least that's how I would adapt the script/plot in the movie
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That actually came up a couple of days ago when a Malaysian fishing vessel tried to recover what might have been an inflatable life raft. Most if not all rafts have an automatic beacon attached that can be salt-water activated, and I saw mention then that there had been no beacons received at all, and since none have been reported since I assume there never have been any beacons of any kind. No pinging from a black box in the ocean either, and I am sure someone is listening for that as well.
the blackbox pinging isn't always picked up - witness that Air France flight that took 2 years to find - and at any rate where they've been looking is so far away from where the plane got to (at least) that even if it was audible it's unlikely anyone would have picked it up yet.
I also believe that the emergency locator beacons do not work in water, which means that if the plane crashed into the ocean the only thing still working would be the pingers in the black boxes.
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I don't know where my head has been in this from the beginning! I should have snapped to the fact that there have been no Emergency Locator Beacons heard ANYWHERE and if there had been any sort of a catastrophic event they would have been screaming like banshees all over the place! Never even thought about them until last night when I read the stuff I copied and pasted here!
Feel like a TOTAL idiot this morning!
We are all total idiots then. Who can keep up? It is all nuts. This stuff is surreal. I just speculated Iran but you would think at this point that is a no brainer-speculation. It also could have been all planned and went bad somehow? It boggles the mind at this stage but you would think if they stole a 777 to fly it into a building they would have done it by now. So let's speculate the hell out of this thing. Why would LET'S JUST SAY- Iran, ( or al-quada) want a 777? I would think Iran could get one without stealing it. (but could al-quada?) Unless the purpose is to look like a regular Malaysian flight on and off radar down the road?
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This is one of those times when I'd like to be a fly on the wall when Obama's favorite assistant receives his briefing on the matter.
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Question......
How low an altitude can a 777 'safely' fly with a door or passenger door(s) open?
Think that perhaps when the plane rose to over 40,000 feet, all the passengers were purposely suffocated....then they threw them into the Indian Ocean before they landed it.
At least that's how I would adapt the script/plot in the movie
Seeding your flight path with bodies would be the undoing of the plot in the movie. Harrison Ford or Denzell Washington would be on it!
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Question......
How low an altitude can a 777 'safely' fly with a door or passenger door(s) open?
Think that perhaps when the plane rose to over 40,000 feet, all the passengers were purposely suffocated....then they threw them into the Indian Ocean before they landed it.
At least that's how I would adapt the script/plot in the movie
Why waste all that time? They could all sit there dead until Bruce Willis arrives to talk to the only remaining person alive, a drop dead gorgeous stewardess that's father is so smart he predicted all of this and she is living it. They will have sex in the cargo hold and then take out the ragheads because she can all of a sudden fight like Chuck Norris.
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Seeding your flight path with bodies would be the undoing of the plot in the movie. Harrison Ford or Denzell Washington would be on it!
:silly:
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Way off topic. Love the avatar (and the team)!
Back to missing airplanes.
Thank you!
GO!! PACK!! GO!!
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<--------------- Is wondering where Obama is?
campaigning?
golfing?
using his pen?
using his almighty blackberry?
playing Scrabble with ValJar?
playing tootsie roll pop up game candy land with Reggie?
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Seeding your flight path with bodies would be the undoing of the plot in the movie. Harrison Ford or Denzell Washington would be on it!
So would a lot of ocean predators....it's a big 'pool'.
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So would a lot of ocean predators....it's a big 'pool'.
:bigsilly:
awesome comeback!
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the blackbox pinging isn't always picked up - witness that Air France flight that took 2 years to find - and at any rate where they've been looking is so far away from where the plane got to (at least) that even if it was audible it's unlikely anyone would have picked it up yet.
I also believe that the emergency locator beacons do not work in water, which means that if the plane crashed into the ocean the only thing still working would be the pingers in the black boxes.
ELBs have an automatic pinger that is designed to help locate it in water and modern boxes are almost indestructible. Listening for a pinger in the water would be similar to looking for the plane with a satellite. There is plenty of underwater listening capability out there but it takes time to gather the data and analyze it.
That Air France flight crashed in considerably deeper water than where this search it taking place. With the exception of the Indonesian trench and the faults along the Java/Sumatra line, the water is fairly shallow and the bottom pretty flat. A submarine for example would have pretty good luck hearing a pinger, depending on the water conditions and the size of the sound propagation channels in the water.
At this point I am sure everyone is trying just about everything.
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ELBs have an automatic pinger that is designed to help locate it in water and modern boxes are almost indestructible. Listening for a pinger in the water would be similar to looking for the plane with a satellite. There is plenty of underwater listening capability out there but it takes time to gather the data and analyze it.
That Air France flight crashed in considerably deeper water than where this search it taking place. With the exception of the Indonesian trench and the faults along the Java/Sumatra line, the water is fairly shallow and the bottom pretty flat. A submarine for example would have pretty good luck hearing a pinger, depending on the water conditions and the size of the sound propagation channels in the water.
At this point I am sure everyone is trying just about everything.
perhaps, but the search area still appears to be a moving target. from what i read this morning Malaysia is now saying the plane had 8 hours' worth of fuel when it went dark, and they - the malaysians - are now saying that the plane's track could have been one of the two shown on this map:
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2014/03/world/malaysia-flight-map/media/mh370-possible-positions.jpg)
If this is true, then the searches near the Andaman islands was pointless.
On a lighter note, maybe they really were trying to get to Perth for a few tinnies, since it seems that the lower over-the-ocean route would be more likely.
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I don't know where my head has been in this from the beginning! I should have snapped to the fact that there have been no Emergency Locator Beacons heard ANYWHERE and if there had been any sort of a catastrophic event they would have been screaming like banshees all over the place! Never even thought about them until last night when I read the stuff I copied and pasted here!
Feel like a TOTAL idiot this morning!
No worries brother. I too forgot that not only do slide rafts float by their very nature, but an explosion would force at least one door (weakest point) and automatically deploy and inflate the slide. The instant it hits water, the beacon would start screaming and those things can be picked up from orbit.
Strange how something that bsic can be forgotten so easily!
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To all: If this craft is airworthy, what avionics will be detectable if it returns to flight? The big assumption on my part is that they not fully disabled.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/15/possible-paths-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/15/possible-paths-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight/)
Interesting comments.
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Also interesting to revisit the families saying their loved ones' cell phones were still ringing (in service)
They speak of the cell phones in this article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/14/heres-how-we-know-mh-370-kept-flying-for-hours/?tid=pm_pop (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/14/heres-how-we-know-mh-370-kept-flying-for-hours/?tid=pm_pop)
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Also interesting to revisit the families saying their loved ones' cell phones were still ringing (in service)
They speak of the cell phones in this article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/14/heres-how-we-know-mh-370-kept-flying-for-hours/?tid=pm_pop (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/14/heres-how-we-know-mh-370-kept-flying-for-hours/?tid=pm_pop)
Think it's already been covered....regarding the ringing cell phones.
Calls are sent to a 'server' [read: NSA accessibility] where the phone "rings". And they'll keep 'ringing' until somebody doesn't pay the monthly bill.
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The plane won't be used for attack. It will be used to learn for attack.
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The plane won't be used for attack. It will be used to learn for attack.
I hope you are correct. That gives us more time to find it. But my gut says it will be "on the job" training, culminating in "work place violence"... : /
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To all: If this craft is airworthy, what avionics will be detectable if it returns to flight? The big assumption on my part is that they not fully disabled.
Easy enough to reprogram the aircraft transponder to send a false ID and frame number if you have physical access to the data port, they are reprogrammed for every flight anyway. The engine management and reporting transponders can be disconnected and removed, it's literally a multi plug connector just behind the intake fans and 4 screws - not every aircraft has those anyway, even 777s or Dreamliners. Being as the Rolls Royce ones are helpfully coloured bright yellow, they are also easy to spot. (Thanks Dad!)
A commercial sized airplane is going to show up on radar regardless, and one with an inactive transponder will have pretty much every airforce in the world scrambling to meet and greet it.
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Why is it in this day and age, a black box/transmitter cannot be sending the same information in real time to a Wifi or other eavesdropping device?
Shame on them....
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Why is it in this day and age, a black box/transmitter cannot be sending the same information in real time to a Wifi or other eavesdropping device?
Shame on them....
Bandwidth.
It is technically possible for any plane to do so. In practical terms, there are a lot of planes in the sky at any given moment. It's why the engine management systems, when fitted, only report once an hour or once every 15 minutes. They only shift to minute by minute reporting if there is a fault in the engine.
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I hope you are correct. That gives us more time to find it. But my gut says it will be "on the job" training, culminating in "work place violence"... : /
If each plane has a unique, electronic "signature", I don't believe it will be able to stay in the air long enough to be blown out of the sky. I don't believe it would be used against a U.S. target, too far away. Russian, Chinese or Indian, possibly Australian more likely, with my money on China or Russia, flip a coin.
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Bandwidth.
It is technically possible for any plane to do so. In practical terms, there are a lot of planes in the sky at any given moment.
IMO, that's a piss poor excuse. Heck....there's always NSA that should be able to contribute.
Limit it to 'trouble' spots around the globe. For example....Middle East and Asia.
Hell.....far as I'm concerned, there should be technology available that ensures the entire plane can be controlled on the ground.
If they can fly drones, they can fly 777s.
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If each plane has a unique, electronic "signature", I don't believe it will be able to stay in the air long enough to be blown out of the sky. I don't believe it would be used against a U.S. target, too far away. Russian, Chinese or Indian, possibly Australian more likely, with my money on China or Russia, flip a coin.
If we are going to play speculation - I call Mecca.
The two guys on fake passports are reported to be Iranian and purchased their tickets through an Iranian intermediary. Iran may bluster about Israel, but their most serious hate is for Saudi Arabia. They consider the Saudis controlling Mecca the same way a Catholic would look at a Wiccan Pope.
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If we are going to play speculation - I call Mecca.
The two guys on fake passports are reported to be Iranian and purchased their tickets through an Iranian intermediary. Iran may bluster about Israel, but their most serious hate is for Saudi Arabia. They consider the Saudis controlling Mecca the same way a Catholic would look at a Wiccan Pope.
Ah....that's interesting. Good take, EC! :patriot:
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IMO, that's a piss poor excuse. Heck....there's always NSA that should be able to contribute.
Limit it to 'trouble' spots around the globe. For example....Middle East and Asia.
Hell.....far as I'm concerned, there should be technology available that ensures the entire plane can be controlled on the ground.
If they can fly drones, they can fly 777s.
Who pays? Bandwidth and storage costs, and the hotspots are not exactly rolling in money or reliable infrastructure.
Most planes pretty much fly themselves now anyway. They can take off, fly to the destination and land without the pilot even needing to be awake. He's only there in case something fails.
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A commercial sized airplane is going to show up on radar regardless, and one with an inactive transponder will have pretty much every airforce in the world scrambling to meet and greet it.
If that is the case, we should know exactly where it is currently, correct?
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If that is the case, we should know exactly where it is currently, correct?
Maybe I missed something but it is only undetected at a certain low altitude in-flight-only. If it is grounded, parked in a hangar no detection-correct?
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Maybe I missed something but it is only undetected at a certain low altitude in-flight-only. If it is grounded, parked in a hangar no detection-correct?
Correct, but it appears we and every military in the world, had 7 (perhaps more) hours to intercept. That's a slow scramble...
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If that is the case, we should know exactly where it is currently, correct?
Engines off, no signature at all to be detected. It disappeared in a region that is pretty spotty in terms of both radar and satellite coverage. One interesting aspect is the odd report that it climbed to 45,000 feet.That is right on the limit of long range radar's ceiling (commercial, obviously, I am not talking about military installations). Without the transponder running, it is just a blip. No ID, nothing.
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Engines off, no signature at all to be detected. It disappeared in a region that is pretty spotty in terms of both radar and satellite coverage. One interesting aspect is the odd report that it climbed to 45,000 feet.That is right on the limit of long range radar's ceiling (commercial, obviously, I am not talking about military installations). Without the transponder running, it is just a blip. No ID, nothing.
Okay so at 45,000 feet they are undetectable and only those with oxygen masks would be at 100%. Would the 777 oxygen masks in the passenger area automatically deploy at 45,000 feet?
Also at a lower altitude they are undetectable.
So the time-frame they went from 45,000 DOWN *could* have been fast enough not to be detected especially in the middle of the night. So could they have planned this accordingly to get down in altitude for landing in a minimum time? And was this descent footprinted for later access or only seen in real time?
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Okay so at 45,000 feet they are undetectable and only those with oxygen masks would be at 100%. Would the 777 oxygen masks in the passenger area automatically deploy at 45,000 feet?
Also at a lower altitude they are undetectable.
So the time-frame they went from 45,000 DOWN *could* have been fast enough not to be detected especially in the middle of the night. So could they have planned this accordingly to get down in altitude for landing in a minimum time? And was this descent footprinted for later access or only seen in real time?
Oxygen masks are supposed to automatically deploy if the cabin pressure equivalent drops below that at 3500 meters (roughly 10,000 feet) The cabin is usually kept at about 6000 feet equivalent air pressure in flight to reduce wear on the airframe. While the masks may deploy automatically or manually, the feed to the masks can be cut off by the cockpit. Some pilots have been known to drop cabin pressure briefly on rowdy flights, which puts everyone to sleep! :laugh:
There are enough gaps in radar coverage there to slip though, assuming you know exactly what you are doing. The big problem is getting from the one minimally detectable (45,000 feet) to the other (under 200 feet) without being spotted. A suicide dive could do it, you'd be on radar for 30 seconds, tops, as an unidentified blip. But if you wanted to land the plane somewhere, you are going to be on radar for a few minutes. Plenty of time for questions to be asked and aircraft and military grade radar to be activated.
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If we are going to play speculation - I call Mecca.
The two guys on fake passports are reported to be Iranian and purchased their tickets through an Iranian intermediary. Iran may bluster about Israel, but their most serious hate is for Saudi Arabia. They consider the Saudis controlling Mecca the same way a Catholic would look at a Wiccan Pope.
I thought about it too but I didn't think they would destroy "holy" spots in common. If it were say Rome and Byzantium, I would think it more likely.
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Mapped: The 634 runways where missing Malaysia Airlines plane could have landed
Potential hijackers had enough fuel to fly anywhere from Pakistan to Western Australia
(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3245895.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/SLIDER-Malaysia-missing-flight-MH370-3245895.jpg)
These are the 634 runways where the missing Malaysia Airlines plane could have landed after a potential hijacking.
Today Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said investigators believe flight MH370's disappearance is the result of 'deliberate action' by someone on the plane.
During a dramatic press conference, he said satellite evidence showed the aircraft's transponder was turned off and it change direction shortly before it vanished.
For all the latest updates on missing flight MH370 follow our live blog.
Mr Razak said it is believed to have been heading in a westerly and then north westerly direction.
The revelation gives hope to the families of the 227 passengers and 12 crew that the Boeing 777 may have landed somewhere and they are still alive.
It is estimated that the jet had enough fuel to have flown around another 2,200 miles after it vanished.
WYNC Data Team said based on the size of the plane, there are 634 runways where it could potentially have landed.
They are spread from as far north as Pakistan, to as far south as the west coast of Australia or even Japan.
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3242017.ece/ALTERNATES/s1023/Malaysia-Air-Crash-3242017.jpg)
More at link: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-plane-634-runways-3245824 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-plane-634-runways-3245824)
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Mapped: The 634 runways where missing Malaysia Airlines plane could have landed
That should narrow it down... : /
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I think the possible maximum range has now been extended to 2500 miles, not just 2200 miles.
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Mapped: The 634 runways where missing Malaysia Airlines plane could have landed
That should narrow it down... : /
Humor and sarcasm duly noted but...
In todays technology we should not be playing Where's Waldo.
If they were on to them and closing in, it would be stoopid to announce it, or then again they could be truly playing 'Where's Waldo'?
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Humor and sarcasm duly noted but...
In todays technology we should not be playing Where's Waldo.
If they were on to them and closing in, it would be stoopid to announce it, or then again they could be truly playing 'Where's Waldo'?
We are banned from looking for bad guys. In this PC world we will always be after the fact. I will be very surprised if it turns out to be a bearded guy named Waldo. However, I'm pretty sure we're still on Waldo's trail, as opposed to the beard... sing it with me... Why can't we be friends.. Why can't we be friends...
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Why is it in this day and age, a black box/transmitter cannot be sending the same information in real time to a Wifi or other eavesdropping device?
Shame on them....
It is a matter of bandwidth as well as storage capacity. This was looked at after AF447 and the cost to deploy the infrastructure (satellites, servers, storage, and supporting parts) was in the tens of billions of dollars.
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It is a matter of bandwidth as well as storage capacity. This was looked at after AF447 and the cost to deploy the infrastructure (satellites, servers, storage, and supporting parts) was in the tens of billions of dollars.
Easier to track 1000 planes the 340,000,000 Americans. Point the antennae outward for the love of Christ.
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Question......
How low an altitude can a 777 'safely' fly with a door or passenger door(s) open?
Think that perhaps when the plane rose to over 40,000 feet, all the passengers were purposely suffocated....then they threw them into the Indian Ocean before they landed it.
At least that's how I would adapt the script/plot in the movie
Ever try to carry or even drag an adult? Even with a fireman's carry it is a difficult task with one, an impossible task with over 200. And do so in the cramp confines of an airplane. Plus you would leave a mice trail of floaters showing the direction you flew.
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Easier to track 1000 planes the 340,000,000 Americans. Point the antennae outward for the love of Christ.
While I agree - who pays? It costs a bundle. To go with the engine transponders for a minute - they add a couple hundred thousand quid to the cost of an engine over it's life span. Rolls swallows the cost, since they are both optional and only normally fitted to the first 20 engines in a new series (new is relative).
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Ever try to carry or even drag an adult? Even with a fireman's carry it is a difficult task with one, an impossible task with over 200. And do so in the cramp confines of an airplane. Plus you would leave a mice trail of floaters showing the direction you flew.
Not at all....if the several ticketed passengers with phony passports lent a hand. Drag down the aisle and push out the door. Repeat.
As far as leaving a trail of 'floaters'.....a plane could maintain an oval pattern until emptied.
And as previously stated, they are 'fish food'....and secondly, if they can't find wreckage, how they gonna find individual bodies thousand of miles from shore?
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While I agree - who pays? It costs a bundle. To go with the engine transponders for a minute - they add a couple hundred thousand quid to the cost of an engine over it's life span. Rolls swallows the cost, since they are both optional and only normally fitted to the first 20 engines in a new series (new is relative).
Some airlines do have the aircraft transmit a lot of data, and they gladly pay for it because it helps with maintenance, reliability, and improves dispatch rates.
Boeing pays for it on new aircraft (not as in newly built, but a new model such as the 787 or a new model of an existing version) and as mentioned, the engine manufacturers pay for it as well under some circumstances.
But most of that is simply numbers, easy data to transmit and store compared to transmitting every single a word spoken in the cockpit and every single bit of operational data, even beyond what the FDR records.
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Not at all....if the several ticketed passengers with phony passports lent a hand. Drag down the aisle and push out the door. Repeat.
As far as leaving a trail of 'floaters'.....a plane could maintain an oval pattern until emptied.
And as previously stated, they are 'fish food'....and secondly, if they can't find wreckage, how they gonna find individual bodies thousand of miles from shore?
Once an aircraft is pressurized, you cannot open a door in flight. The interior pressure is so much greater it prohibits the doors from opening. The handle would break off before you could put enough force into it to open the door; force no human or even a group of humans could put into the handle.
Depressurizing the aircraft and opening the door would be extremely dangerous to the aircraft's structure as it now exposes the aircraft to the slipstream which can damage or destroy the structure.
If you want the aircraft intact, this would be a very bad idea.
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The other developing tidbit in this drama is that the majority of the passengers on that plane were Chinese citizens heading home via Beijing, and the Chinese Government is getting increasingly impatient with the slow progress on this.
And it is my understanding that it is not unusual for many airline pilots to have sophisticated PC based flight simulators.
Not at all unusual and this pilot has been reported to live for flying...to answer why the co pilot? Because of many things.. he's very young ... 27... low flying hours.... 2000....described as usual devout Muslim.... something no one has attributed to the pilot.... the last communication... alright goodnight... would pilot known to be devoted to flying use that instead of the correct ...this is MH370 handing off to...acknowledging the handoff to Vietnam airspace...the erratic flying "could" have been struggle in the cockpit between the two or a deliberate act to disable the passengers... 45,000 feet... And according to experts last night the jogging might have been to avoid known flight path radar...
Frankly if the thought it could make Khagistan... my suspicion is it went to Iran.
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Another interesting thing from an expert who was on Fox last night... former 777 and Air force fighter pilot...He said above 43,000 feet they would rapidly lose air speed and stall which accounts for the drop to 20,000 feet and then a recovery and climb back to 29,000 feet. He said a plane that heavy would take a GOOD..pilot easily 15,000 feet to recover and most pilots would not be able to correct..He gave a whole lot of technical descriptions for what's required to take this heavy a plane and climb that high and what moves the pilot would have had to do to recover control of the plane..now THAT could describe the pilot who could have practiced these moves on his simulator... wouldn't experts be able to recover this like the way they check our computers to see what we search?
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Once an aircraft is pressurized, you cannot open a door in flight. The interior pressure is so much greater it prohibits the doors from opening. The handle would break off before you could put enough force into it to open the door; force no human or even a group of humans could put into the handle.
Depressurizing the aircraft and opening the door would be extremely dangerous to the aircraft's structure as it now exposes the aircraft to the slipstream which can damage or destroy the structure.
If you want the aircraft intact, this would be a very bad idea.
You can open the door at 7000 feet, though you want to crank the selector to Manual before you try. It's the small handle - rotate it until the display window no longer shows a red flag. You do have the problem of pushing the door open - the vast majority of doors open forward, so you have the wind against you when you try. I guess it is technically possible with a couple of strong people and the plane at just above stalling speed.
Doors will, on occasion, open themselves. Wife had a flight once where they had to use the in flight briefing belts and a couple of extension belts to hold the lock handle in position. She found that somewhat scary. Back in 98 that was, on a brand new 777.
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You can open the door at 7000 feet, though you want to crank the selector to Manual before you try. It's the small handle - rotate it until the display window no longer shows a red flag. You do have the problem of pushing the door open - the vast majority of doors open forward, so you have the wind against you when you try. I guess it is technically possible with a couple of strong people and the plane at just above stalling speed.
Doors will, on occasion, open themselves. Wife had a flight once where they had to use the in flight briefing belts and a couple of extension belts to hold the lock handle in position. She found that somewhat scary. Back in 98 that was, on a brand new 777.
The plane is pressured to 8,000 feet so you can try to open it below that altitude. Still a very bad idea to even attempt it. I was referring to cruise altitude.
A door should never be able to open at cruise altitude due to the fact that it is a plug door, meaning it is pushing outward against the aircraft structure. The force inside will hold it in place. If the latching mechanism failed, it could possibly open once the pressure has equalized.
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The plane is pressured to 8,000 feet so you can try to open it below that altitude. Still a very bad idea to even attempt it. I was referring to cruise altitude.
A door should never be able to open at cruise altitude due to the fact that it is a plug door, meaning it is pushing outward against the aircraft structure. The force inside will hold it in place. If the latching mechanism failed, it could possibly open once the pressure has equalized.
So...IOW...in the movie "Air Force One", it was not possible to open the door...install a cable and leave the troubled jetliner for a rescue jet? :laugh:
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You can open the door at 7000 feet, though you want to crank the selector to Manual before you try. It's the small handle - rotate it until the display window no longer shows a red flag. You do have the problem of pushing the door open - the vast majority of doors open forward, so you have the wind against you when you try. I guess it is technically possible with a couple of strong people and the plane at just above stalling speed.
Doors will, on occasion, open themselves. Wife had a flight once where they had to use the in flight briefing belts and a couple of extension belts to hold the lock handle in position. She found that somewhat scary. Back in 98 that was, on a brand new 777.
DB Cooper jumped at 10,000 feet. Of course I still doubt there was enough manpower to throw over 200 people off the plane, so a really doubt they tried. They wanted a stealthy getaway. Leaving a trail of bodies which would float for days in that warm water would be like leaving a path to your door.
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DB Cooper jumped at 10,000 feet. Of course I still doubt there was enough manpower to throw over 200 people off the plane, so a really doubt they tried. They wanted a stealthy getaway. Leaving a trail of bodies which would float for days in that warm water would be like leaving a path to your door.
Bodies may or may not float. Depends how lazy the local wildlife is. Feet always float if they are wearing running shoes,since the ankles are a weak point. Gives a whole new meaning to footprints.
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DB Cooper jumped at 10,000 feet. Of course I still doubt there was enough manpower to throw over 200 people off the plane, so a really doubt they tried. They wanted a stealthy getaway. Leaving a trail of bodies which would float for days in that warm water would be like leaving a path to your door.
Cooper jumped from a 727 via the rear air stairs while the aircraft was unpressurized and flying barely above stall speed.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Rwr727tail.jpg)
Far different than the side doors on an aircraft. After this hijacking, a device was installed to prevent the rear stairs door from being opened in flight.
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Cooper jumped from a 727 via the rear air stairs while the aircraft was unpressurized and flying barely above stall speed.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Rwr727tail.jpg)
Far different than the side doors on an aircraft. After this hijacking, a device was installed to prevent the rear stairs door from being opened in flight.
Does a 777 have "rear stairs"? Couldn't a conspiratorial co-pilot/mechanic make sure that the stairs would open in flight?
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Does a 777 have "rear stairs"? Couldn't a conspiratorial co-pilot/mechanic make sure that the stairs would open in flight?
Nope. 777's only have side doors. Each door (or pair of doors during in flight rest) is monitored by at least one member of the crew.
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Nope. 777's only have side doors. Each door (or pair of doors during in flight rest) is monitored by at least one member of the crew.
All the more reason the thought of throwing 239 people out the plane is fantasy. Out of the 230 or so bodies not one hits the horizontal stabilizers, gets sucked into an engines or hits any of the control surfaces. That is some good throwing.
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All the more reason the thought of throwing 239 people out the plane is fantasy. Out of the 230 or so bodies not one hits the horizontal stabilizers, gets sucked into an engines or hits any of the control surfaces. That is some good throwing.
Maybe I watch too many movies.......LOL!
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Those still stuck on the bodies were tossed out theory, go to a popular movie this weekend with a full theater like Robocop or 300, and as you sit there look around at all the people. You think you and a buddy could drag all those people out the exit door if they were incapacitated dead weight? Unless you are a weight lifter you would probably be doubled over with back spasms or completely exhausted before you can clear 2 rolls.
On the lighter side, think of all the free popcorn you could have.
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All the more reason the thought of throwing 239 people out the plane is fantasy. Out of the 230 or so bodies not one hits the horizontal stabilizers, gets sucked into an engines or hits any of the control surfaces. That is some good throwing.
You control the passengers the same way the Germans controlled the people in line at concentration camps, promises. They'll get water "in just a moment", make a call "in just a moment", bathroom in "just a moment".
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Drudge headline reads "PAKISTAN"
They have nukes. They have materials for 'dirty bombs'.
Now they have a vehicle to deliver it anyplace when the time suits them.
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Nope. 777's only have side doors. Each door (or pair of doors during in flight rest) is monitored by at least one member of the crew.
No need to throw any bodies out as long as those bodies are all incapacitated. If the cabin oxygen system were compromised and the cabin vented to atmosphere during a high climb, people would be overcome by hypoxia very quickly and it would not take long for it to be fatal. If they are all safely buckled into their seats then they are no longer a threat and there is no need to do anything further with them.
Why leave a trail of breadcrumbs??
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No worries brother. I too forgot that not only do slide rafts float by their very nature, but an explosion would force at least one door (weakest point) and automatically deploy and inflate the slide. The instant it hits water, the beacon would start screaming and those things can be picked up from orbit.
Strange how something that bsic can be forgotten so easily!
Isn't it though! But that seems to be what ALWAYS gets overlooked doesn't it?
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Judge Jeanine (yum) is finishing a two-hour special on Flight 370.
Fascinating compilation of pilots...instructors...an array of experts.
Some think the motive could be larceny/greed. They're wondering what the jet's cargo was.
The 'pings' that continued after the contact was lost is not guaranteed to be flight 370.
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Judge Jeanine (yum) is finishing a two-hour special on Flight 370.
Fascinating compilation of pilots...instructors...an array of experts.
Some think the motive could be larceny/greed. They're wondering what the jet's cargo was.
The 'pings' that continued after the contact was lost is not guaranteed to be flight 370.
One thing in cargo was the lithium batteries which are illegal for planes in the USA. Isn't that what brought down that Florida plane a month before TWA 800?
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Why is it in this day and age, a black box/transmitter cannot be sending the same information in real time to a Wifi or other eavesdropping device?
Shame on them....
Wi-fi wouldn't work because that's a strictly local technology with a very limited range. Communications have to go over radio (VHF and UHF) or satellite, and the bandwidth on both of those is a lot more precious than on a wi-fi network.
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One thing in cargo was the lithium batteries which are illegal for planes in the USA. Isn't that what brought down that Florida plane a month before TWA 800?
ValuJet 592 was illegally loaded oxygen generators, the device which makes the OK for the passenger emergency oxygen system on some aircraft. Other aircraft have O2 tanks on board instead.
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ValuJet 592 was illegally loaded oxygen generators, the device which makes the OK for the passenger emergency oxygen system on some aircraft. Other aircraft have O2 tanks on board instead.
Thank you, I'm eating dinner and was too lazy to look it up.
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Malaysia Airline MH370: 9/11-style terror allegations resurface in case of lost plane
Possible plot investigated after Al-Qaeda supergrass told court that four or five Malaysian men planned a passenger airliner hijack
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02853/mh370_2853292b.jpg)
Left: Saajid Muhammad Badat. Right: A woman writes on a board of messages and well-wishes dedicated to people involved with the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner MH370 Photo: PA/AP
By Robert Mendick, Robert Verkaik in London, Dean Nelson in Kuala Lumpur and Malcolm Moore in Beijing8:54PM GMT 15 Mar 2014
Evidence of a plot by Malaysian Islamists to hijack a passenger jet in a 9/11-style attack is being investigated in connection with the disappearance of Flight MH370
An al-Qaeda supergrass told a court last week that four to five Malaysian men had been planning to take control of a plane, using a bomb hidden in a shoe to blow open the cockpit door.
Security experts said the evidence from a convicted British terrorist was “credible”. The supergrass said that he had met the Malaysian jihadists – one of whom was a pilot – in Afghanistan and given them a shoe bomb to use to take control of an aircraft.
A British security source said: “These spectaculars take a long time in the planning.”
The possibility of such a plot, hatched by the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers in New York, was bolstered by an admission by Najib Razak, Malaysia’s prime minister, that the Boeing 777’s communications systems had been deliberately switched off “by someone on the plane”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10700652/Malaysia-Airline-MH370-911-style-terror-allegations-resurface-in-case-of-lost-plane.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10700652/Malaysia-Airline-MH370-911-style-terror-allegations-resurface-in-case-of-lost-plane.html)
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An al-Qaeda supergrass told a court last week that four to five Malaysian men had been planning to take control of a plane, using a bomb hidden in a shoe to blow open the cockpit door.
What? Talk about frigging dumb. You don't need a bomb to open the cockpit door, it's an electronic lock. You just need the over ride code - which is known to every pilot, flight attendant, engineer, caterer, and cleaner employed by the airline. If you can't get that code, you are not even trying. Hell, I know the lock codes for the biggest airline in the world. It's actually written in the training manuals.
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3 pieces of evidence point to jet's takeover
Mar 16th 2014 6:18AM
MALAYSIA
There are three pieces of evidence that aviation safety experts say make it clear the missing Malaysia Airlines jet was taken over by someone who was knowledgeable about how the plane worked.
TRANSPONDER
One clue is that the plane's transponder - a signal system that identifies the plane to radar - was shut off about an hour into the flight.
In order to do that, someone in the cockpit would have to turn a knob with multiple selections to the off position while pressing down at the same time, said John Goglia, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board. That's something a pilot would know how to do, but it could also be learned by someone who researched the plane on the Internet, he said.
ACARS
Another clue is that part of the Boeing 777's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was shut off.
The system, which has two parts, is used to send short messages via a satellite or VHF radio to the airline's home base. The information part of the system was shut down, but not the transmission part. In most planes, the information part of the system can be shut down by hitting cockpit switches in sequence in order to get to a computer screen where an option must be selected using a keypad, said Goglia, an expert on aircraft maintenance.
That's also something a pilot would know how to do, but that could also be discovered through research, he said.
But to turn off the other part of the ACARS, it would be necessary to go to an electronics bay beneath the cockpit. That's something a pilot wouldn't normally know how to do, Goglia said, and it wasn't done in the case of the Malaysia plane. Thus, the ACARS transmitter continued to send out blips that were recorded by the Inmarsat satellite once an hour for four to five hours after the transponder was turned off. The blips don't contain any messages or data, but the satellite can tell in a very broad way what region the blips are coming from and adjusts the angle of its antenna to be ready to receive message in case the ACARS sends them. Investigators are now trying to use data from the satellite to identify the region where the plane was when its last blip was sent.
GUIDED FLIGHT
The third indication is that that after the transponder was turned off and civilian radar lost track of the plane, Malaysian military radar was able to continue to track the plane as it turned west.
The plane was then tracked along a known flight route across the peninsula until it was several hundred miles (kilometers) offshore and beyond the range of military radar. Airliners normally fly from waypoint to waypoint where they can be seen by air traffic controllers who space them out so they don't collide. These lanes in the sky aren't straight lines. In order to follow that course, someone had to be guiding the plane, Goglia said.
Goglia said he is very skeptical of reports the plane was flying erratically while it was being tracked by military radar, including steep ascents to very high altitudes and then sudden, rapid descents. Without a transponder signal, the ability to track planes isn't reliable at very high altitudes or with sudden shifts in altitude, he said.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/16/3-pieces-of-evidence-point-to-jets-takeover/20850854/?ncid=webmail1#!slide=2487288
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Among the obligatory photos of guys in uniform pointing at maps, there are also a few informative ones as well.
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What? Talk about frigging dumb. You don't need a bomb to open the cockpit door, it's an electronic lock. You just need the over ride code - which is known to every pilot, flight attendant, engineer, caterer, and cleaner employed by the airline. If you can't get that code, you are not even trying. Hell, I know the lock codes for the biggest airline in the world. It's actually written in the training manuals.
wouldn't a bomb used for that purpose have a rather high risk of (a) damaging the flight controls/instruments in the cockpit, and/or (b) fatally weakening the aircraft's structure?
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wouldn't a bomb used for that purpose have a rather high risk of (a) damaging the flight controls/instruments in the cockpit, and/or (b) fatally weakening the aircraft's structure?
On a triple 7? It would not be very good for the environmental controls, which are right next to the cockpit door on the outside of the cockpit, in the CSD's cubby. Same place as the inflight entertainment systems. Also, there is no where to take cover while it goes off - it's pretty much a straight line down the left aisle, and the little curtains are not going to provide much protection.
In terms of the actual flight controls, nothing major would be damaged, they are routed along the fuselage, not usually under the floor. The door itself, at least on the aircraft the wife works on, wouldn't even budge. Vertical locking bars, not horizontal. Set off a small explosive and you have everyone awake, pissed off at the sudden loss of the inflight movie and a very pissed off pilot or two, ears ringing, who are still safely locked inside the cockpit with both an axe and a flare pistol immediately to hand.
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Among the obligatory photos of guys in uniform pointing at maps, there are also a few informative ones as well.
one was extremely noticable and quickly marked it wasn't a "Western" air force.
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What? Talk about frigging dumb. You don't need a bomb to open the cockpit door, it's an electronic lock. You just need the over ride code - which is known to every pilot, flight attendant, engineer, caterer, and cleaner employed by the airline. If you can't get that code, you are not even trying. Hell, I know the lock codes for the biggest airline in the world. It's actually written in the training manuals.
I was under the impression that since 9/11 there were other reinforcements and deadbolts added to ensure the cockpit could not be easily breached in a hijacking. Am I mistaken about that??
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I was under the impression that since 9/11 there were other reinforcements and deadbolts added to ensure the cockpit could not be easily breached in a hijacking. Am I mistaken about that??
Electronic lock. Camera, showing who is outside. Microphones in the fore galley in the 777, so the pilots can hear what is going on as needed. Vertical locking bars, as well as the catch and hinge pins. The door and bulkhead has been reinforced (kevlar and mesh, they still have to worry about weight).
Want to get in through all that? Type a number four times on the keypad and press star. This is, of course, assuming the flight deck have not negated the entire security system by tying a sock across the edge of the door, to make it more convenient for the crew checks and nipping to the loo.
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any thoughts on whether it landed in burma or crashed in the himalayas?
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At the moment - I am going for landed, not crashed.
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any thoughts on whether it landed in burma or crashed in the himalayas?
How the hell could they do either and evade the many different military surveillance radars, India in particular?? You would think that someone would have seen an unidentified radar contact and pushed the alarm button. I cannot see how you fly an airliner that far without someone taking notice.
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How the hell could they do either and evade the many different military surveillance radars, India in particular?? You would think that someone would have seen an unidentified radar contact and pushed the alarm button. I cannot see how you fly an airliner that far without someone taking notice.
Which is the reason the USA is now going on the theory the plane flew out into the Indian Ocean toward Australia and they possible crashed it into the deepest part of the ocean... they are moving assets toward Australia.
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Which is the reason the USA is now going on the theory the plane flew out into the Indian Ocean toward Australia and they possible crashed it into the deepest part of the ocean... they are moving assets toward Australia.
I still lean on the theory that it eventually crashed like this theory claims. There are millions of square miles of ocean to search and a lot of time was spent searching in the wrong area. But what puzzles me is if the intension was to crash it and kill everyone on board why not just go nose in and crash it? Why all the evasive maneuvers? A very strange story indeed, no matter how this eventually turns out.
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Which is the reason the USA is now going on the theory the plane flew out into the Indian Ocean toward Australia and they possible crashed it into the deepest part of the ocean... they are moving assets toward Australia.
Wow! That's quite a shift from yesterday, I hadn't been tuned in today, thanks for the info on that.
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I still lean on the theory that it eventually crashed like this theory claims. There are millions of square miles of ocean to search and a lot of time was spent searching in the wrong area. But what puzzles me is if the intension was to crash it and kill everyone on board why not just go nose in and crash it? Why all the evasive maneuvers? A very strange story indeed, no matter how this eventually turns out.
If it did crash, it might very well have been something as simple as giving a big "FU" to Malaysia. If it had crashed into the South China Sea, it would have been found in no time. Flying it out over the south Indian Ocean before crashing it means it might never be found and it is a big black eye to Malaysia.
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Wow! That's quite a shift from yesterday, I hadn't been tuned in today, thanks for the info on that.
They are discussing it with Bob Scales right now on Fox...
The Aussies are working with us and are repositioning some of their naval assets in the region.. the Aussies are quiet, but they are working with the USA on this. There is also a lot of runways in that area and a large area not covered by radar (in the Indian Ocean).. Scales thinks this is going to take years to solve.
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Diego Garcia would not have picked the plane up on their radar.
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/final-words-from-missing-jet-came-after-systems-shutdown/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Final words from missing jet came after systems shutdown
25 countries scour southeast Asia for clues of where MH370 may have disappeared to as pilots remain high on suspect list
By AP March 17, 2014, 1:43 am 0
When someone at the controls calmly said the last words heard from the missing Malaysian jetliner, one of the Boeing 777′s communications systems had already been disabled, authorities said Sunday, adding to suspicions that one or both of the pilots were involved in disappearance of the flight.
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Investigators also examined a flight simulator confiscated from the home of one of the pilots and dug through the background of all 239 people on board, as well as the ground crew that serviced the plane.
The Malaysia Airlines jet took off from Kuala Lumpur in the wee hours of March 8, headed to Beijing. On Saturday, the Malaysian government announced findings that strongly suggested the plane was deliberately diverted and may have flown as far north as Central Asia or south into the vast reaches of the Indian Ocean.
Authorities have said someone on board the plane first disabled one of its communications systems — the Aircraft and Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or ACARS — about 40 minutes after takeoff. The ACARS equipment sends information about the jet’s engines and other data to the airline.
Around 14 minutes later, the transponder that identifies the plane to commercial radar systems was also shut down. The fact that both systems went dark separately offered strong evidence that the plane’s disappearance was deliberate.
On Sunday, Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a news conference that that the final, reassuring words from the cockpit — “All right, good night” — were spoken to air traffic controllers after the ACARS system was shut off. Whoever spoke did not mention any trouble on board.
Air force Maj. Gen. Affendi Buang told reporters he did not know whether it was the pilot or co-pilot who spoke to air traffic controllers.
Given the expanse of land and water that might need to be searched, finding the wreckage could take months or longer. Or it might never be located. Establishing what happened with any degree of certainty will probably require evidence from cockpit voice recordings and the plane’s flight-data recorders.
The search area now includes 11 countries the plane might have flown over, Hishammuddin said, adding that the number of countries involved in the operation had increased from 14 to 25.
“The search was already a highly complex, multinational effort,” he said. “It has now become even more difficult.”
The search effort initially focused on the relatively shallow waters of the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca, where the plane was first thought to be. Hishammuddin said he had asked governments to hand over sensitive radar and satellite data to try to get a better idea of the plane’s final movements.
With more information, he said, the search zone could be narrowed “to an area that is more feasible.”
Malaysia is leading the search for the plane and the investigation into its disappearance.
In the United States, Dan Pfeiffer, senior adviser to President Barack Obama, told NBC’s “Meet the Press” that the FBI was supporting the criminal probe.
Rep. Peter King, chairman of the House Homeland Security subcommittee on counterterrorism and intelligence, said on ABC’s “This Week” that so far “there’s nothing out there indicating it’s terrorists.”
Investigators are trying to answer these questions: If the two pilots were involved in the disappearance, were they working together or alone, or with one or more of the passengers or crew? Did they fly the plane under duress or of their own will? Did one or more of the passengers manage to break into the cockpit or use the threat of violence to gain entry and then seize the plane? And what possible motive could there be for diverting the jet?
Malaysia’s police chief, Khalid Abu Bakar, said he asked countries with citizens on board the plane to investigate their backgrounds, no doubt looking for anyone with terrorism ties, aviation skills or prior contact with the pilots. He said that the intelligence agencies of some countries had already done so and found nothing suspicious, but he was waiting for others to respond.
Police searched the homes of both pilots Saturday, the first time they had done so since the plane vanished, the government said. Asked why it took them so long, Khalid said authorities “didn’t see the necessity in the early stages.”
Police confiscated the elaborate flight simulator that one of the pilots, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, had built in his home and reassembled it in their offices to study it for clues, Khalid said.
Zaharie, 53, who has three grown children and one grandchild, had previously posted photos online of the simulator, which was made with three large computer monitors and other accessories. Earlier this week, the head of Malaysia Airlines said the simulator was not in itself cause for any suspicion.
Malaysian police were also investigating engineers and ground staff who may have had contact with the plane before it took off, Khalid said.
Even though the ACARS system was disabled on Flight 370, it continued to emit faint hourly pulses that were recorded by a satellite. The last “ping” was sent out at 8:11 a.m. — 7 hours and 31 minutes after the plane took off. That placed the jet somewhere in a huge arc as far north as Kazakhstan in Central Asia or far into the southern Indian Ocean.
While many people believe the plane has crashed, there is a small possibility it may have landed somewhere and be relatively intact. Affendi, the air force general, and Hishammuddin, the defense minister, said it was possible for the plane to “ping” when it was on the ground if its electrical systems were undamaged.
Australia said it was sending one of its two AP-3C Orion aircraft involved in the search to remote islands in the Indian Ocean at Malaysia’s request. The plane will search the north and west of the Cocos Islands, a remote Australian territory with an airstrip about 1,200 kilometers (745 miles) southwest of Indonesia, military chief Gen. David Hurley said.
Given that a northern route would have sent the plane over countries with busy airspace, most experts say the person in control of the aircraft would more likely have chosen to go south. The southern Indian Ocean is the world’s third-deepest and one of the most remote stretches of water in the world, with little radar coverage.
Whoever disabled the plane’s communication systems and then flew the jet must have had a high degree of technical knowledge and flying experience, putting one or both of the pilots high on the list of possible suspects, Malaysian officials and aviation experts said.
Zaharie, the captain, was a supporter of a Malaysian opposition political party that is locked in a bitter dispute with the government, according to postings on his Facebook page and a friend, Peter Chong, who is a party member.
Chong said that he last saw Zaharie a week before the pilot left on the flight for Beijing and that they had agreed to meet on his return to organize a shopping trip for poor children.
“If I am on a flight, I would choose Captain Zaharie,” he said. “He is dedicated to his job. He is a professional and he loves flying.”
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There is so much professional misconduct here by so many different parties it is difficult to appreciate. This simply can not occur inside of the air cover of the Continental US. It simply is not possible for a 777 to fly unchallenged for that long, through so many different radar corridors, and had acts like turning off the transponder go completely unchallenged.
If anything, the FAA and Homeland Scrutiny ought to be ringing the goddam alarm bells over how easily this jet was deviated from its flight path, how long it flew completely unchallenged by anyone, including the Malaysian military who apparently tracked it for hours and said nothing. Why the frack did these people waste all that money on defense radar if all they are going to do with it is park monkeys on the monitors to watch all the fancy lights flash?? What the frack does Vietnam have an air traffic control system for, if they allow a jet to just turn off its transponder unchallenged??
It is hard to believe that this much malfeasance is out there, and it scares the hell out of me that this has gone down the way it did and is continuing for as long as it has.
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There is so much professional misconduct here by so many different parties it is difficult to appreciate. This simply can not occur inside of the air cover of the Continental US. It simply is not possible for a 777 to fly unchallenged for that long, through so many different radar corridors, and had acts like turning off the transponder go completely unchallenged.
If anything, the FAA and Homeland Scrutiny ought to be ringing the goddam alarm bells over how easily this jet was deviated from its flight path, how long it flew completely unchallenged by anyone, including the Malaysian military who apparently tracked it for hours and said nothing. Why the frack did these people waste all that money on defense radar if all they are going to do with it is park monkeys on the monitors to watch all the fancy lights flash?? What the frack does Vietnam have an air traffic control system for, if they allow a jet to just turn off its transponder unchallenged??
It is hard to believe that this much malfeasance is out there, and it scares the hell out of me that this has gone down the way it did and is continuing for as long as it has.
A great big :amen: to your entire post Chief!
You are NOT alone!
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi5GhuhIAAAQIjH.jpg)
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How the hell could they do either and evade the many different military surveillance radars, India in particular?? You would think that someone would have seen an unidentified radar contact and pushed the alarm button. I cannot see how you fly an airliner that far without someone taking notice.
I don't know about India but as you said elsewhere: monkeys sitting at the radar terminals watching the pretty lights blink.
Here's another thought: have the prevailing winds been taken into account in trying to reconstruct the plane's ultimate location (at least a more precise determination of the last ping). For example, if the prevailing winds are west to east, then the potential search area should probably be shifted a bit eastward. Keeping in mind that we're talking about experienced pilots, so this is a stretch, but is it possible that whomever was piloting the aircraft made a mistake about how far the plane's fuel could take it if they went west - into the prevailing winds - instead of east - with the prevailing winds? Obviously if the prevailing winds go the other way, then just switch "west" and "east" in the above. If the prevailing winds are west to east, then the ground distance the aircraft could travel westward with a given load of fuel would be less than the distance it could travel eastward.
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http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/mh370-flew-as-low-as-1500m-to-avoid-detection-says-nst
MH370 flew as low as 1,500m to avoid detection, says paper
March 17, 2014
(http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/assets/uploads/resizer/graphic_MH370_runways_16032014_english_540_403_100.jpg)
As the search for the missing flight MH370 enters its 10th day with few clues as to its whereabouts, the New Straits Times said today the Boeing 777-200ER dropped 5,000 feet (1,500m) to evade commercial radar detection.
In an exclusive story, the government-backed paper said investigators analysing MH370’s flight data revealed that the 200-tonne, fully laden twinjet descended 1,500m or even lower to evade commercial (secondary) radar coverage after it turned back from its flight path en route to Beijing.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER (9M-MRO) disappeared on March 8 with 239 people on board. Malaysian authorities said on Saturday the plane was deliberately diverted and its on-board transmission devices switched off to avoid detection.
Its last contact was at 8.11am north of the Strait of Malacca.
Investigators poring over MH370’s flight data had said the plane had flown low and used “terrain masking” as it flew over the Bay of Bengal and headed north towards land, the NST reported.
Officials, who formed the technical team, were looking into the possibility that whoever was piloting the jet at that time had taken advantage of the busy airways over the Bay of Bengal and stuck to a commercial route to avoid raising the suspicion of those manning primary (military) radars, the paper said.
“The person who had control over the aircraft has a solid knowledge of avionics and navigation and left a clean track. It passed low over Kelantan, that was true,” the NST quoted an anonymous official as saying.
“Terrain masking” refers to an ability to position an aircraft so there is natural earth hiding it from the radio waves sent from the radar system. It is a technique mostly used in aerial combat where military pilots would fly at extremely low elevations upon normally hilly or mountainous terrain to “mask” their approach.
Experts said flying a Boeing 777 in such a way would be dangerous, stressing the airframe and possibly causing those on board to be air sick and suffer from spatial disorientation.
Flight MH370 flew for an estimated eight hours and the authorities believe it would have flew over two additional countries besides Malaysia, although it's not clear which ones.
On Saturday, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the search for MH370 would now expand to areas beyond Thailand to Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan in the north and beyond Indonesia in the south.
This was after satellite data placed the aircraft in one of two corridors: at the north stretching from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan, or at the south, from Indonesia to the southern Indian Ocean.
The NST quoting sources said the probe would now focus on regions with disused airports equipped with long runways capable of handling a plane like the Boeing 777.
Putrajaya has briefed envoys from nearly two dozen nations and appealed for international help in the search for the plane.
"The search area has been significantly expanded," acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein said yesterday.
"From focusing mainly on shallow seas, we are now looking at large tracts of land, crossing 11 countries, as well as deep and remote oceans."
Investigations have also focused on the backgrounds of the pilots, crew and ground staff of those who worked on the missing jet.
On Saturday, Special Branch officers searched the homes of the captain, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, and first officer, Fariq Abdul Hamid, 27.
Today, Reuters reports that the last words from the cockpit of missing MH370 – "all right, good night" – were uttered after someone on board had already begun disabling one of the plane's automatic tracking systems.
Both the timing and informal nature of the phrase, spoken to air traffic controllers as the plane was leaving Malaysian-run airspace could further heighten suspicions of hijacking or sabotage, it said.
The sign-off came after one of the plane's data communication systems, which would have enabled it to be tracked beyond radar coverage, had been deliberately switched off, Hishammuddin said yesterday.
"The answer to your question is yes, it was disabled before," he told reporters when asked if the ACARS system – a maintenance computer that sends back data on the plane's status – had been deactivated before the voice sign-off.
Background checks of passengers have drawn a blank but not every country whose nationals were on board has responded to requests for information, Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar said. – March 17, 2014.
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Will say it again....
...any insurance company worth its salt would be part of a network that shared the cost of making it a requirement that a 'lo-jack-type device be installed somewhere integrated into the construction of the aircraft. It CANNOT be discovered, nor tampered with.
A Garmin GPS satellite handles hundreds of thousands of instant direction requests and 'knows' where you are within 10 feet at all times.
It seems elementary...dear Watson....that it should be virtually impossible to hide a jetliner that doesn't belong to you.
Am I wrong in my thinking? :shrug:
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Will say it again....
...any insurance company worth its salt would be part of a network that shared the cost of making it a requirement that a 'lo-jack-type device be installed somewhere integrated into the construction of the aircraft. It CANNOT be discovered, nor tampered with.
A Garmin GPS satellite handles hundreds of thousands of instant direction requests and 'knows' where you are within 10 feet at all times.
It seems elementary...dear Watson....that it should be virtually impossible to hide a jetliner that doesn't belong to you.
Am I wrong in my thinking? :shrug:
If Malaysia Airlines had subscribed to the satellite tracking - which is available we would know where the plane is right now. Someone on CNN explained it really well yesterday. The "ping" off the engines went to one satellite.. if they had the satellite tracking (think OnStar) then they would have been able to take the pings from it and cross-triagulate and would know exactly - or very close to exactly - where that plane either crashed or landed. I heard an expert today say the USA could make a stink and tell all airlines flying into the USA this is mandatory on their planes.
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"Pings" my butt.
There should be active technology right now that enables a person sitting on a console to watch a map screen as if he were flying the plane.
It would take plane hi-jacking the way of the obscene phone call at the advent of caller ID. A thing of the past.
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"Pings" my butt.
There should be active technology right now that enables a person sitting on a console to watch a map screen as if he were flying the plane.
It would take plane hi-jacking the way of the obscene phone call at the advent of caller ID. A thing of the past.
At that altitude you have to depend on satellite technology and huge swaths of the oceans are not covered 100% of the time with satellites. It's like driving through the mountains with a cell phone the reception will go in and out - but if the airline paid for the airline version of On-Star we'd likely know where they went.
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At that altitude you have to depend on satellite technology and huge swaths of the oceans are not covered 100% of the time with satellites. It's like driving through the mountains with a cell phone the reception will go in and out - but if the airline paid for the airline version of On-Star we'd likely know where they went.
Where do typical GPS satellites orbit in comparison to the highest orbiting commercial satellite?
I see your point though. Tracking an object 35K at 659 mph isn't the same as tracking me to an assigned address.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-15/malaysia-sets-new-search-zone-as-flight-deliberately-diverted.html
Ocean Off Perth Called Diverted Malaysian Plane's Most Likely Last Position
By Alan Levin, Manirajan Ramasamy and Andrew Davis Mar 15, 2014 10:33 PM MT
The weeklong search for a missing passenger jet shifted toward the Indian Ocean as Malaysia’s prime minister agreed with investigators that the aircraft was intentionally diverted.
Satellite transmissions that weren’t turned off along with other systems showed Malaysian Airline Flight 370 operated for almost seven hours after last making contact with air traffic controllers on March 8, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said yesterday. That may have taken the Boeing Co. 777-200 near the limits of its fuel load if it was airborne the whole period.
The movements of the plane, which veered off its Kuala Lumpur-to-Beijing course and flew back across the Malaysian peninsula before disappearing, were “consistent with deliberate action by someone on the plane,” Najib said.
“In view of this latest development, the Malaysian authorities have refocused their investigation into the crew and passengers on board,” he said.
Police searched the home of Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, the captain of the flight, shortly after Najib spoke, Reuters reported.
Satellite transmission data analyzed by U.S. investigators showed that the Malaysian Airline (MAS) System Bhd. jetliner’s most likely last-known position was in a zone about 1,000 miles (1,609 kilometers) west of Perth, Australia, said two people in the U.S. government who are familiar with the readings. Najib was told that is the most promising lead on locating the plane, one of the people said.
No Requests
“We’ve had no additional requests from the Malaysian authorities,” Rebecca Horton, a spokeswoman for Australian Defence Minister David Johnston, said today by phone.
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Where do typical GPS satellites orbit in comparison to the highest orbiting commercial satellite?
I see your point though. Tracking an object 35K at 659 mph isn't the same as tracking me to an assigned address.
DC, I think this will help you........
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-370.html
snip.........
So, how do you track a plane and what do we know about the movements of flight MH370?
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73552000/gif/_73552365_boeing777_malaysianflight_624gr_v3.gif)
Air traffic control standard international practice is to monitor airspace using two radar systems: primary and secondary.
Primary radar, based on the earliest form of radar developed in the 1930s, detects and measures the approximate position of aircraft using reflected radio signals. It does this whether or not the subject wants to be tracked. Secondary radar, which relies on targets being equipped with a transponder, also requests additional information from the aircraft - such as its identity and altitude.
All commercial aircraft are equipped with transponders (an abbreviation of "transmitter responder"), which automatically transmit a unique four-digit code when they receive a radio signal sent by radar.
The code gives the plane's identity and radar stations go on to establish speed and direction by monitoring successive transmissions. This flight data is then relayed to air traffic controllers.
However, once an aircraft is more than 240km (150 miles) out to sea, radar coverage fades and air crew keep in touch with air traffic control and other aircraft using high-frequency radio.
Flight MH370 disappeared from air traffic control screens when its transponder signal stopped. The last definitive sighting on civilian radar showed the plane flying north east across the Gulf of Thailand.
The final radio message received by air traffic control - "Alright, roger that" - suggested everything was normal on board.
line break
Don't planes have GPS?
Yes, but while GPS (Global Positioning System) is a staple of modern life, the world's air traffic control network is still almost entirely radar-based.
Aircraft use GPS to show pilots their position on a map, but this data is not usually shared with air traffic control.
Flight MH370's last known location
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73602000/jpg/_73602232_china_malaysia_plane9_624.jpg)
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73602000/jpg/_73602229_possible_plane_area3_624(3).jpg)
Some of the most modern aircraft are able to "uplink" GPS data to satellite tracking services, but handling large volumes of flight data is expensive and such systems are usually only used in remote areas with no radar coverage.
However, there are plans for air traffic controllers to replace radar as their primary surveillance method over the next decade.
The new system - ADS-B (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast) - will see aircraft work out their position using GPS and then relay data to the ground and other planes.
But, as with existing secondary radar, ADS-B coverage does not extend over the oceans.
ADS-B is already used by flight-tracking websites, but the Malaysian aircraft disappeared from these at the same time it vanished from air traffic control screens.
The disappearance of flight MH370 has already brought renewed focus on whether mid-air tracking should be improved.
Could other data systems provide clues?
When Air France flight 447 crashed into the mid Atlantic in 2009, its onboard data system - Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) - gave investigators an early insight into what had gone wrong.
ACARS is a service that allows computers aboard the plane to "talk" to computers on the ground, relaying in-flight information about the health of its systems.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73514000/jpg/_73514473_01a67a17-0e1c-479c-8868-88c79bdf151d.jpg)
Messages are transmitted either by radio or digital signals via satellites, and can cover anything from the status of the plane's engines to a faulty toilet.
end snip...........
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At that altitude you have to depend on satellite technology and huge swaths of the oceans are not covered 100% of the time with satellites. It's like driving through the mountains with a cell phone the reception will go in and out - but if the airline paid for the airline version of On-Star we'd likely know where they went.
A cell phone is not a satellite. A cell phone is dependent upon ground based towers, terrain can get in the way. Satellites are in the sky. If you're a terrorist on a SAT phone, you use it at your peril. You can be be detected. Not so with a cell phone. TV news experts do no one any favors with incorrect comparisons (can't think of exact word).
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Malaysian officials reveal it was missing jet's CO-PILOT - not the captain - who said calm 'good night' to air traffic control after plane's tracking equipment was disabled
SNIP
Some senior US officials believe it is possible the plane was taken as part of a ‘dry run’ for a future terrorist attack – in order to find out whether a plane can be hidden from radar and satellites.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582146/Caught-CCTV-Pilots-doomed-Malaysian-Airlines-flight-walk-security-final-time-off.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582146/Caught-CCTV-Pilots-doomed-Malaysian-Airlines-flight-walk-security-final-time-off.html)
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Missing plane: Now police probe whether passenger who was flight engineer for private jet firm was involved in hijacking
--Police probing MH370 passengers with technical knowledge of planes
--Passenger Mohd Khairul was a flight engineer with a private jet firm
--No trace of the plane has been found more than a week after it vanished
--Authorities believe that the plane was flown deliberately off-course
A flight engineer who was a passenger on the missing Malaysia Airlines plane is being investigated as the suspicion that it was hijacked hardens.
The aviation engineer is Mohd Khairul Amri Selamat, 29, a Malaysian who has said on social media he had worked for a private jet charter company.
The pilots are also under intense scrutiny, after it was revealed that the co-pilot said 'all right, good night', after someone had begun disabling one of the plane's automatic tracking systems.
Malaysian investigators are trawling through the backgrounds of the pilots, crew and ground staff who worked on the missing Boeing 777-200ER for clues as to why someone on board flew it hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of miles off course.
‘Yes, we are looking into Mohd Khairul as well as the other passengers and crew. The focus is on anyone else who might have had aviation skills on that plane,’ a senior police official with knowledge of the investigations told Reuters.
As he's investigated, his wife, Emy, waits in hope.
Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a news conference Monday that finding the plane was still the main focus, and he did not rule out finding it intact.
'The fact that there was no distress signal, no ransom notes, no parties claiming responsibility, there is always hope,' Hishammuddin said.
No trace of the plane has been found more than a week after it vanished but investigators believe it was diverted by someone with deep knowledge of the plane and of commercial navigation.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said on Saturday evidence pointed to a deliberate diversion of the flight, given the controlled way it was apparently turned around and flown far to the west of its original route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582504/MH370-Malaysia-Airlines-mystery-Police-probe-flight-engineer-Mohd-Khairul-flight-engineer-private-jet-firm-involved-hijacking.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582504/MH370-Malaysia-Airlines-mystery-Police-probe-flight-engineer-Mohd-Khairul-flight-engineer-private-jet-firm-involved-hijacking.html)
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Glenn Beck was talking about this on his radio program today. This might explain why a plane with passengers would be hijacked.
"20 Passengers From Missing Malaysia Flight Were DOD Employees Involved In Electronic Warfare & Weapons That Can “Cloak” Or Make Planes Invisible"
http://govtslaves.info/20-passengers-missing-malaysia-flight-dod-employees-involved-electronic-warfare-weapons-can-cloak-make-planes-invisible/
The 20 employees work for an Austin, Texas based company - these employees are Chinese and Malaysian.
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Just what we needed....a fresh twisted conspiracy theory out of Glenn Beck. If he says it, be sure it is both Hugh and series....
Along that tangent, has anyone heard from John Bachelor yet?? What does DEBKA make of this???
:smokin:
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Just what we needed....a fresh twisted conspiracy theory out of Glenn Beck. If he says it, be sure it is both Hugh and series....
Along that tangent, has anyone heard from John Bachelor yet?? What does DEBKA make of this???
:smokin:
Did you even read the article, Chieftan? Or did you just see Glenn Beck's name and turn it off? It's not Beck's theory, there are lots of articles about this - he was reporting on the "conspiracy theory" going around the Internet on this. If you read about this company and the technology they are working on, it might make sense to a terrorist organization. As much sense as any of the other theories out there.
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Leaked Footage Shows #MH370 Pilots Going Through Airport Security Checks
http://patdollard.com/2014/03/leaked-footage-shows-mh370-pilots-going-through-airport-security-checks/ (http://patdollard.com/2014/03/leaked-footage-shows-mh370-pilots-going-through-airport-security-checks/)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEDu1IxHVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEDu1IxHVI)
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A little levity:
QUOTE OF THE DAY
"Now they're looking for it on the bottom of the Indian Ocean. Maybe they'll find my second term agenda there."
- Barack Obama
A note from our attorneys: This is not a real quote
White House Dossier (http://www.whitehousedossier.com/)
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A cell phone is not a satellite. A cell phone is dependent upon ground based towers, terrain can get in the way. Satellites are in the sky. If you're a terrorist on a SAT phone, you use it at your peril. You can be be detected. Not so with a cell phone. TV news experts do no one any favors with incorrect comparisons (can't think of exact word).
DC was talking about why every plane cannot be tracked constantly and the tracking not turned off.. we weren't talking cell phones or sat phones.
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Article at hotmail if someone wants to post it..Malaysia official paper now reporting it dropped down and flew at 5000 feet to avoid detection.
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MH370 flew as low as 1,500m to avoid detection, says paper
http://my.news.yahoo.com/mh370-flew-low-1-500m-avoid-detection-says-011918423.html
As the search for the missing flight MH370 enters its 10th day with few clues as to its whereabouts, the New Straits Times said today the Boeing 777-200ER dropped 5,000 feet (1,500m) to evade commercial radar detection.
In an exclusive story, the government-backed paper said investigators analysing MH370’s flight data revealed that the 200-tonne, fully laden twinjet descended 1,500m or even lower to evade commercial (secondary) radar coverage after it turned back from its flight path en route to Beijing.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER (9M-MRO) disappeared on March 8 with 239 people on board. Malaysian authorities said on Saturday the plane was deliberately diverted and its on-board
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DC was talking about why every plane cannot be tracked constantly and the tracking not turned off.. we weren't talking cell phones or sat phones.
That's right. My point was that a single telecommunications satellite for GPS can track perhaps tens of thousand of drivers inputting destinations at the same time...and that icon of "you" is accurate to within 90 feet.
If I owned American Airlines or was COB...I'd make sure everyone of my planes was "lo-jacked" in multiple concealed places...where it would be impossible to not know where that aircraft is ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET. Period.
If I owned the insurance company insuring their loss....it would be a condition for acceptance of the policy.
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Did you even read the article, Chieftan? Or did you just see Glenn Beck's name and turn it off? It's not Beck's theory, there are lots of articles about this - he was reporting on the "conspiracy theory" going around the Internet on this. If you read about this company and the technology they are working on, it might make sense to a terrorist organization. As much sense as any of the other theories out there.
I listened to him and you're right Alice... it was not HIS theory, he was reading what they wrote in the Wallstreet Journal. But he did make what I think is as valid an observation as any I've heard. How many times over the past week have people said what was in the cargo hold of that plane? Given what the 20 people did for a living and the fact they were heading to China - were they carrying something with them in cargo that was involved in this cloaking device or a device itself? IF so there is any number of countries who would love to get hold of it.... though granted it would take a lot of fore-knowledge and planning.
He also had a guy on who trackedall aircraft (civilian and military) for the military - was really interesting because the guy explained how the military keeps track of planes in the aerial highway and this would definitely be one of the reasons they quickly dropped down to literally fly low as to not receive those pings from military tracking devices.
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Did you even read the article, Chieftan? Or did you just see Glenn Beck's name and turn it off? It's not Beck's theory, there are lots of articles about this - he was reporting on the "conspiracy theory" going around the Internet on this. If you read about this company and the technology they are working on, it might make sense to a terrorist organization. As much sense as any of the other theories out there.
Yes, exactly right.
I've seen and heard far too many Glenn Beck wild-goose-me chases to pay him any attention any more. Ditto Bachelor and DEBKA. I can name more if you insist....
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The "alright goodnight" statement has been identified as the pilot of the plane - this was after the tracking systems were shut down.
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I listened to him and you're right Alice... it was not HIS theory, he was reading what they wrote in the Wallstreet Journal. But he did make what I think is as valid an observation as any I've heard. How many times over the past week have people said what was in the cargo hold of that plane? Given what the 20 people did for a living and the fact they were heading to China - were they carrying something with them in cargo that was involved in this cloaking device or a device itself? IF so there is any number of countries who would love to get hold of it.... though granted it would take a lot of fore-knowledge and planning.
He also had a guy on who trackedall aircraft (civilian and military) for the military - was really interesting because the guy explained how the military keeps track of planes in the aerial highway and this would definitely be one of the reasons they quickly dropped down to literally fly low as to not receive those pings from military tracking devices.
Thanks Rap, it's certainly food for thought.
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Since this particular thread seems to have gone over the edge already i'll throw this one in the mix.
http://www.lignet.com/InBriefs/Malaysia-Hunts-for-Missing-Jet-in-Pakistan-Israel-?ns_mail_uid=38832797&ns_mail_job=1560482_03172014&promo_code=16D22-1
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Wouldn't surprise me, Bigun. At this point I think discounting anything is dangerous.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the US knows where the plane is.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the US knows where the plane is.
Me, either.
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Wouldn't surprise me, Bigun. At this point I think discounting anything is dangerous.
Perhaps but this is getting out of hand!
NO way that plane made Pakistan and especially so if it were flying at low level to avoid radar as has been alleged! Flying down on the deck consumes what fuel there is at a horrific rate.
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465369/Malaysia-Airlines-jet-Are-military-rulers-COVERING-UP-details-of-plane-s-last-flightpath
Malaysia Airlines plane: Has there been a military COVER UP over jet's last flight path?
SOME of the world’s most militarised regimes might be covering up embarrassing details about the flightpath of the missing Malaysia Airlines jet, a leading aviation expert has suggested.
By: Ted Jeoy
Published: Mon, March 17, 2014
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/cover_up_malaysia_airlines-465369.jpg)
COVER UP There would be a huge outcry if an unidentified jet passed slipped through radar defences COVER UP: There would be a huge outcry if an unidentified jet passed slipped through radar defences [GETTY]
David Learmount, operations and safety editor at the respected Flight Global publication, said countries in the world’s most volatile region might be withholding vital radar data about Flight MH370 for fear it would expose holes in their multibillion pound air defences.
If the unidentified Boeing 777 had passed over their territories without sounding any alarm bells it would be a humiliating failure for radar systems that are meant to alert rulers to enemy attacks.
The countries over which the Malaysia Airlines plane might have flown include Thailand, Burma, China, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.
Between them they spend some $185billion every year on military defences–and that excludes the amount spent by the US, the UK and other allies securing Afghanistan’s airspace.
Mr Learmount said: “Maybe these states’ air defences, like Malaysia’s, are not what they are cracked up to be.
“And maybe they wouldn’t want the rest of the world to know that.”
Flight MH370 and its 239 people on board has now been missing for nine days, with the 26 countries involved in the search not much closer to finding it. The plane’s transponder was deliberately turned off, making it undetectable to civilian air traffic controllers using secondary radar.
Flight Global’s David Learmount, a former pilot, is one of the most respected analysts in the aviation industry and regularly appears on the BBC and Sky News.
Writing on his blog yesterday, he outlined his latest thoughts.
He questioned why the Malaysian authorities had taken so long to disclose that the Boeing had been detected on military, or primary, radar–after having turned west from its intended flightpath.
That confirmation came last Tuesday.
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/138127.jpg)
lThe Malaysia Airlines jet may have passed over militarised zones undetected [EXPRESS]
Mr Learmount wrote: “Clearly they had let an unidentified aircraft pass through Malaysian sovereign territory without bothering to identify it; not something they were happy to admit.”
It was only yesterday, Mr Learmount wrote, that the “signs of really practical thinking and coordination of the search and investigation are beginning to appear for the first time”.
He continued: “The Malaysian government has called upon all the countries to the north-west as far as Turkmenistan and the Caspian Sea to check their primary radar records for unidentified contacts in their airspace in the seven hours after the 777 went missing.
“Depending on the actual track the aircraft followed, if it had headed approximately north-west this could include some–if not all–of the following countries: Thailand, Myanmar/Burma, China, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan.
“If the aircraft had gone that way, surely military primary radar in one of those countries–or several–would have picked up the signal from this unidentified aircraft, and the vigilant radar operator would have scrambled a fighter to intercept the intruder?
“Wouldn’t s/he? Or maybe not. Maybe these states’ air defences, like Malaysia’s, are not what they are cracked up to be. And maybe they wouldn’t want the rest of the world to know that.”
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/138128.jpg)
The Malaysia Airlines jet flying over Poland on Feb 5 this year [REUTERS]
Meanwhile, Malaysian officials today confirmed that French experts involved in the investigation of the 2009 Air France mid-Atlantic disaster have flown in to help solve the latest mystery.
Flight AF447 crashed into the Atlantic after a pilot error during a volatile lightning storm en route from Brazil to Paris.
Malaysian authorities also suggested the final voice to be heard from the Malaysia Airlines jet was that of the first officer, Fariq Abdul Hamid. In his final call with Malaysian air traffic controllers, 15 minutes after the transponder had been deactivated, he is believed to have said, “all right, good night”.
A recording of the voice patterns are now being analsyed for any psychological stress from a possible hijacking by one or more of the crew or passengers.
Malaysian authorities are also seeking diplomatic permission to investigate the theory that the Boeing 777 have been flown to a Taliban controlled area of northwestern Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is thought the plane may have dropped to an altitude of less than 5,000ft to evade being detected by radar as it flew over other countries.
An official confirmed the plane had flown at a low lever over Kelentan, Malaysia. Speaking to the New Strait Times he said: "The person who had control over the aircraft has a solid knowledge of avionics and navigation, and left a clean track.
“It passed low over Kelantan, that was true. It's possible that the aircraft had hugged the terrain in some areas, that are mountainous to avoid radar detection".
Experts have said only a trained person would have the skills necessary to turn of the plane’s tracking system.
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Since this particular thread seems to have gone over the edge already i'll throw this one in the mix.
http://www.lignet.com/InBriefs/Malaysia-Hunts-for-Missing-Jet-in-Pakistan-Israel-?ns_mail_uid=38832797&ns_mail_job=1560482_03172014&promo_code=16D22-1
It wasn't that many years ago that the idea of two planes taking the World Trade Centers down would have been poo-pooed.
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It wasn't that many years ago that the idea of two planes taking the World Trade Centers down would have been poo-pooed.
I agree with that Alice but some of this stuff could and should be eliminated with just a little checking.
I do think you are right about someone already knowing where the plane is.
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I agree with that Alice but some of this stuff could and should be eliminated with just a little checking.
I do think you are right about someone already knowing where the plane is.
I think that is what the former military guy on Beck's radio show this morning was alluding to when he explained how the roadway in the sky works and how the military pings off the aircraft to determine who is where (this is aside from the FAA).
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There are a lot of very sophisticated assets being brought to bear on this from a number of concerned players. It takes time to get assets on station to begin a search, and the search itself has to be systematic and coordinated in order to accomplish anything. The US Navy has at least one destroyer in the Indian Ocean and is deploying long range P-3 submarine hunters to the search as well.
ASW assets might prove to be what steers the searchers to the plane in the end, if it crashed into the water. Large metal pieces leave a magnetic signature in the water that the P-3 is designed to pick up. The long ASW "tails" many destroyers are outfitted with are designed to pick up distant and faint noises in the water; an underwater pinger in a black box could be located this way.
The bottom line is that it will take time to gather data and analyze it to see if there is anything to be found. Even SOSUS underwater submarine listening gear is capable of picking up the sounds of a big jet hitting the water and breaking up as it sinks to the bottom, but it takes time for real humans to sift through all that data...
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Article at hotmail if someone wants to post it..Malaysia official paper now reporting it dropped down and flew at 5000 feet to avoid detection.
I'm not sure the Malaysians really know what they're talking about any more.
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The "alright goodnight" statement has been identified as the pilot of the plane - this was after the tracking systems were shut down.
I thought they'd already decided it was the co-pilot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582146/Caught-CCTV-Pilots-doomed-Malaysian-Airlines-flight-walk-security-final-time-off.html
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The turns of the plane were made at GPS waypoints (the highway in the sky).......... which "could" mean the flight path was pre-programmed...
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http://www.nationalreview.com/corner
Homeland Security Committee Chairman: Missing Plane May Have Been Hidden for Use as Weapon
By Andrew Johnson
March 17, 2014 4:06 PM
After eleven days and no sign of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, Representative Michael McCaul (R., Texas) said he believes whatever happened to the plane was “an intentional, deliberate act” and that it may have been hidden somewhere for later use.
While he said there are currently few leads showing the plane’s disappearance was tied to terrorism, the House Committee on Homeland Security chairman did not rule out the possibility. “The other possible theory that we’re looking at is that it could have landed somewhere, filled with explosives, and then sent somewhere to cause some great damage,” he warned on Fox News on Monday.
McCaul argued that if the plane was hijacked or taken over for use by terrorists, he doesn’t think the perpetrators would simply crash it in to the ocean. “What would be the purpose?” he asked.
Calling it the most mysterious missing flight since Amelia Earhart’s disappearance in 1937, McCaul said authorities are still keeping all options open, including pilot suicide or that the plane ran out of fuel.
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New York Times breaking more news on this on Fox - right after the break........
gotta go feed my dogs.
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Just heard a former Marine pilot say he thought the plane was hidden, to be repainted for further "use". He also said there is a code (075) to punch in if there are terrorists. The code was never activated, at least that is what we are told.
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Has anyone raised the conspiracy yet that the plane was never lost, it arrived on time, and the passengers/crew are just in the nightmare limbo of the Beijing airport system? The whole system is just FUBAR and they were lost like a TPS report?
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Has anyone raised the conspiracy yet that the plane was never lost, it arrived on time, and the passengers/crew are just in the nightmare limbo of the Beijing airport system? The whole system is just FUBAR and they were lost like a TPS report?
Not so far-fetched!
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FINALLY, Courtney Love's theory (wouldn't it be ironic if she scooped everyone)
Courtney Love Thinks She May Have Found Missing Malaysian Plane
Using Tomnod, the online satellite imagery map website set up to crowdsource info on the plane's location, Love posted an image on her Facebook page of a body of water with the words "Oil" and "Plane" crudely drawn in Microsoft Paint with respective arrows drawn on the image.
"I'm no expert but up close this does look like a plane and an oil slick," wrote Love. "Prayers go out to the families #MH370 and its [sic] like a mile away Pulau Perak, where they 'last' tracked it 5°39'08.5"N 98°50'38.0"E but what do I know?"
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/courtney-love-thinks-she-may-have-found-missing-malaysian-plane-20140317#ixzz2wH5RIOXe
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/s851x315/1544314_643731082330400_1397175222_n.png)
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FINALLY, Courtney Love's theory (wouldn't it be ironic if she scooped everyone)
:bigsilly:
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So it appears the plane route was pre-programmed. Frankly, I don't think it went over the Indian Ocean.. The last known sighting was heading north toward Pakistan, etc...
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So it appears the plane route was pre-programmed. Frankly, I don't think it went over the Indian Ocean.. The last known sighting was heading north toward Pakistan, etc...
Do you have any links for the info?
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Do you have any links for the info?
New York Times on Fox News 30 minutes ago.
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http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/18/c_133194071.htm
U.S. Navy vessel quits search efforts for missing MH370 airliner
English.news.cn 2014-03-18 09:12:43 [More]
WASHINGTON, March 17 (Xinhua) -- A U.S. Navy vessel has been detached from the multinational massive search efforts of a missing Malaysia Airlines plane, the U.S. Navy's 7th Fleet confirmed on Monday.
In an emailed statement, the U.S. Navy's 7th Fleet confirmed that the USS Kidd, an Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer, and its MH-60R helicopters have completed their search of the Andaman Sea and have been detached from the search efforts as of March 18.
No debris or wreckage associated with an aircraft was found during the search, the statement said.
"With the search area expanding into the southern Indian Ocean, long range patrol aircraft such as the P-8A Poseidon and P-3C Orion are more suited to the current SAR mission," said the statement.
"Covering up to 15,000 square miles in one 9-hour flight, the P-8 and P-3 can search larger areas with their advanced surface search radars and electro-optical sensors as well as fly low for visual identification when needed."
The decision was made in consultation with the government of Malaysia, it said.
No trace of the Beijing-bound Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 has been found since it vanished on March 8 with 239 people aboard.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight.html?hp
Lost Jet’s Path Seen as Altered via Computer
By MATTHEW L. WALD and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDTMARCH 17, 2014
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER, flight 318 to Beijing, sat on the tarmac Monday at Kuala Lumpur International Airport. Flight 318 replaces 370, retired out of respect to the passengers and crew of the missing plane.
(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/03/18/world/asia/18flight2/18flight2-master675.jpg)
WASHINGTON — The first turn to the west that diverted the missing Malaysia Airlines plane from its planned flight path from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing was carried out through a computer system that was most likely programmed by someone in the plane’s cockpit who was knowledgeable about airplane systems, according to senior American officials.
Instead of manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials. The Flight Management System, as the computer is known, directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight. It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off.
The fact that the turn away from Beijing was programmed into the computer has reinforced the belief of investigators — first voiced by Malaysian officials — that the plane was deliberately diverted and that foul play was involved. It has also increased their focus on the plane’s captain and first officer.
The chief executive of Malaysia Airlines says it is unclear when the missing plane’s communications system, known as Acars, was switched off.
Prime Minister Najib Razak of Malaysia told reporters on Saturday that his government believed that the plane had been diverted because its transponder and other communications devices had been manually turned off several minutes apart. American officials were told of the new information over the weekend.
But the Malaysian authorities on Monday reversed themselves on the sequence of events they believe took place on the plane in the crucial minutes before ground controllers lost contact with it early on March 8. They said it was the plane’s first officer — the co-pilot — who was the last person in the cockpit to speak to ground control. And they withdrew their assertion that another automated system on the plane, the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or Acars, had already been disabled when the co-pilot spoke.
Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official. This shows that the reprogramming happened before Acars stopped working. The Acars ceased to function about the same time that oral radio contact was lost and the airplane’s transponder also stopped, fueling suspicions that foul play was involved in the plane’s disappearance.
Investigators are scrutinizing radar tapes from when the plane first departed Kuala Lumpur because they believe the tapes will show that after the plane first changed its course, it passed through several pre-established “waypoints,” which are like virtual mile markers in the sky. That would suggest that the plane was under control of a knowledgeable pilot, because passing through those points without using the computer would have been unlikely.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/03/15/satellite-contact-map/0f647c39b4e51e5078fb60b28c4c0879a83678be/satellite-contact-map-5-600.png)
Estimated range of plane with its remaining fuel if it was flying at the plane’s maximum speed:
According to investigators, it appears that a waypoint was added to the planned route. Pilots do that in the ordinary course of flying if air traffic controllers tell them to take a different route, to avoid weather or traffic. But in this case, the waypoint was far off the path to Beijing.
Whoever changed the plane’s course would have had to be familiar with Boeing aircraft, though not necessarily the 777 — the type of plane that disappeared. American officials and aviation experts said it was far-fetched to believe that a passenger could have reprogrammed the Flight Management System.
Normal procedure is to key in a five-letter code — gibberish to non-aviators — that is the name of a waypoint. A normal flight plan consists of a series of such waypoints, ending in the destination airport. For an ordinary flight, waypoints can be entered manually or uploaded into the F.M.S. by the airline.
One of the pilots keys in a waypoint on a separate screen known as a scratchpad, and after confirming that it has no typographical errors, pushes another button to move it into the sequence already in the flight plan. Normal practice is to orally confirm the waypoint with the other pilot, then push another button to instruct the airplane to go there. With the change in course, the plane would bank at a comfortable angle, around 20 degrees, and make the turn. Passengers would not feel anything unusual.
Reconstructing the Plane’s Path
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/03/14/communication/668409dc97cfafbbb16fa75f8ecb6cbf3d6441a6/2014-03-14-communication-artboard_1.png)
The main communications systems of the Malaysia Airlines plane were turned off about 40 minutes into the flight, forcing investigators to try to piece together the plane’s location from other systems.
Transponder
Secondary Radar and Text Updates
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/03/14/communication/668409dc97cfafbbb16fa75f8ecb6cbf3d6441a6/2014-03-14-communication-artboard_1.png)
Air traffic controllers typically know a plane’s location based on what is called secondary radar, which requests information from the plane’s transponder. A plane also uses radio or satellite signals to send regular updates through Acars, the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System. Both of those systems were turned off.
Primary Radar
Two Malaysian military radar stations tracked a plane using primary radar, which sends out radio signals and listens for echoes that bounce off objects in the sky. Primary radar does not require a plane to have a working transponder.
SATELLITE
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/03/14/communication/668409dc97cfafbbb16fa75f8ecb6cbf3d6441a6/2014-03-14-communication-artboard_1.png)
Satellite Communications
If Acars updates are turned off, the plane still sends a “keep-alive” signal, that can be received by satellites. The signal does not indicate location, but it can help to narrow down the plane’s position. A satellite picked up four or five signals from the airliner, about one per hour, after it left the range of military radar.
By JOSH KELLER, SERGIO PEÇANHA, MATTHEW L. WALD
Sources: R. John Hansman Jr., Massachusetts Institute of Technology; American officials
ABC News reported on Sunday that the programmed turn had led investigators to believe that it was being controlled by the pilot or hijackers.
One American safety expert, John Cox, a former airline union safety official, said that someone taking such pains to divert the plane does not fit the pattern of past cases when pilots intentionally crashed and killed everyone on board.
“There’s an inconsistency in what we’ve seen historically,” he said, comparing the disappearance of Flight 370 with two murder-suicides, on an Egyptair flight off Nantucket Island in 1999 and a SilkAir jet in Indonesia in 1997. In those crashes, he said, the pilot involved simply pushed the nose of the plane down and flew into the water. The authorities searched the homes of the pilots in Kuala Lumpur on Saturday, seizing a flight simulator that one of them had in his home.
In an effort to determine whether the pilot had practiced taking down the plane, the authorities have reassembled the simulator for experts to examine. American investigators would like access to the flight simulator and any other electronic information seized from the pilots, but as of Monday night they had not been given access to those materials.
Meanwhile, as the search for the missing Boeing 777 jet stretched into a 10th day, two of the nations helping in the hunt, Australia and Indonesia, agreed to divide between them a vast area of the southeastern Indian Ocean, with Indonesia focusing on equatorial waters and Australia beginning to search farther south for traces of the aircraft. To the north, China and Kazakhstan checked their radar records and tried to figure out whether the jet could have landed somewhere on their soil.
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hmm...I'm starting to believe aliens beamed it up...
Millennium
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/17/article-2582595-1C5CEEAA00000578-854_634x292.jpg)
(via DailyMail)
Boeing 777 hijackers plunged to 5,000ft and used low altitude ‘terrain masking’ manoeuvre practised by fighter jets to avoid radar detection
Boeing 777 may have ‘dropped to altitude as low as 5,000ft’
It had flown at 45,000ft, before possibly going down quickly
Aviation experts say passengers would have felt it plunging
Villagers in the north-east of Malaysia say they saw bright lights
Claims today that the missing Malaysian Airlines jet dropped to an altitude of 5,000ft to avoid radar lends credibility to reports by villagers that they saw bright lights and loud noises at about the time the aircraft is thought to have made a ‘U-turn’.
Investigators told a Malaysian newspaper that the Boeing 777 had dropped to a lower altitude to avoid ground radar, using the surrounding terrain as a sonar barrier.
This type of flying is considered to be dangerous and risky, because it places tremendous pressure on the frame of the aircraft – and flying low at night without radar assistance could lead to the plane crashing into trees or mountains.
Investigators told the New Straits Times that they were now convinced the aircraft flow low over Kelantan, which is in the north east – exactly the same area where the villagers and fishermen who saw bright lights in the sky on the night the jet vanished are living.
At least nine people – fishermen, farmers and villagers – have made reports to police about seeing lights in the sky and some said they heard the loud noise of an engine.
These accounts appear to match the conclusions of investigators who say the jet flew low after making a sharp turn and heading west from its course over the South China Sea. LINK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582595/Boeing-777-hijackers-plunged-5-000ft-used-low-altitude-terrain-masking-manoeuvre-practised-fighter-jets-avoid-radar-detection.html)
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http://news.sky.com/story/1227589/missing-plane-two-thirds-of-passengers-cleared
Missing Plane: Two-Thirds Of Passengers Cleared
The hunt for flight MH370 is extended to China, as it emerges none of the 154 Chinese passengers on board have terrorism links.
5:45am UK, Tuesday 18 March 2014
Crew members look outside windows from a Malaysian Air Force CN235 aircraft during a search and rescue operation to find the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370
There has been no sign of the missing plane, despite an extensive search
Wish cards dedicated to flight MH370 are collected in Kuala Lumpur.
A Sky News special report from Alistair Bunkall who has been taking a detailed look at the latest moves in the investigation.
Video: Special Report: Missing Plane MH370
Two-thirds of passengers on board the missing Malaysian Airlines plane have been cleared of any links to terrorism, according to officials.
Background checks on all 154 Chinese passengers have not uncovered any evidence suggesting a plot to hijack or bring down flight MH370, Huang Huikang, the Chinese ambassador to Malaysia, said.
It appears to discount one theory that Uighur separatists - the group blamed for an attack in Beijing's Tiananmen Square last October and the massacre at Kunming railway station earlier this month - might have been involved in the plane's disappearance.
There has been no trace of the Boeing 777 since it disappeared less than one hour into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 people on board.
The aircraft's tracking devices were deliberately switched off, allowing it to travel almost undetected.
Satellite data suggests the plane flew for at least seven hours and could have ended up anywhere from central Asia to the southern reaches of the Indian Ocean.
Flight MH370 Nearly 240 passengers were on board flight MH370 when it vanished
It has prompted an unprecedented search involving teams from some 26 countries, who are scouring huge swathes of land and ocean for any sign of the aircraft.
Mr Huang said searches are now under way in China - part of which crosses a northern corridor along which the plane may have flown.
Meanwhile, investigators continue to probe the background of pilots Zaharie Ahmad Shah and Fariq Abdul Hamid, as well as ground engineers who worked on the aircraft before it took off.
Fariq Abdul Hamid & Zaharie Ahmad Shah Mr Hamid and Mr Zaharie were at the controls of the Boeing 777
The homes of both pilots have been searched and a flight simulator belonging to Mr Zaharie seized.
It is believed Mr Hamid made the last communication from the aircraft, calmly telling air traffic controllers as the plane passed into Vietnamese air space: "All right, good night."
Malaysian Defence Minister Hishammuddin Hussein, who is expected to provide an update on the search at a news conference later, said: "The fact that there was no distress signal, no ransom notes, no parties claiming responsibility, there is always hope."
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A lawyer friend from southern West Virginia advises:
I want you to know we are on our toes down here. While the rest of the world is still looking for the missing 777, we found it.
It is in Mingo County, on cinder blocks, and being used by some locals as a new home. They may be running a meth lab in the back end.
Just so you know.
:silly:
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hmm...I'm starting to believe aliens beamed it up...
Millennium
And why not?? Makes every bit as much sense as many of the other theories about it do.....
My best guess is that they flew the plane out into the Southern Indian Ocean and crashed into the sea when they ran out of fuel. Nothing else makes much sense.....
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And why not?? Makes every bit as much sense as many of the other theories about it do.....
My best guess is that they flew the plane out into the Southern Indian Ocean and crashed into the sea when they ran out of fuel. Nothing else makes much sense.....
I can tell you this much! If they flew at 5000 feet for very long they didn't get far! You could use the fuel flow meters for fans flying that low!
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http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3
This Is The Most Plausible Theory For The Plane's Disappearance We've Heard Yet...
Henry Blodget
March 18, 2014
Over the past 10 days, investigators and observers have come up with ever-more elaborate theories for what might have happened to Malaysia Airways Flight 370.
What was originally assumed to have been a tragic mid-air explosion or mechanical problem soon bloomed into a criminal investigation of a meticulously planned hijacking, commandeering, or otherwise stealing of a fully loaded commercial 777 in mid-air.
The perpetrator(s) knew the plane so well, one of the latest theories goes, that they climbed through a trap door outside the cockpit to reach circuit breakers necessary to shut down one of the communication's systems. They shut down the transponder. They made the plane disappear and fooled the world into thinking it had crashed. They flew one of two "arcs" for 7 hours — a "southern route" over the Indian Ocean on which, eventually, they crashed the plane in the ocean in a complicated suicide, and a "northern route" in which, perhaps, they slipped past land-based radar, flew to a destination in central Asia, and landed, perhaps preparing to use the plane again soon for a terrorist attack or other mission. This latter plan was executed so flawlessly, one observer theorized, that Flight 370 slipped in behind another commercial airliner for much of the route so as not to be noticed on radar.
The pilots' houses have been searched. Terrorist connections have been probed. Passenger backgrounds and possible motives have been scrutinized. And still, 10 days after the plane disappeared, we know nothing.
Perhaps that's because we're overthinking it.
Article at link.
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Maldives island residents report sighting of 'low flying jet'
http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54062
(http://f1.haveeru.com.mv/photos/2014/03/0_139513468929_news.jpg)
Residents of the remote Maldives island of Kuda Huvadhoo in Dhaal Atoll have reported seeing a "low flying jumbo jet" on the morning of the disappearance of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.
Whilst the disappearance of the Boeing 777 jet, carrying 239 passengers has left the whole world in bewilderment, several residents of Kuda Huvadhoo told Haveeru on Tuesday that they saw a "low flying jumbo jet" at around 6:15am on March 8.
They said that it was a white aircraft, with red stripes across it – which is what the Malaysia Airlines flights typically look like.
Eyewitnesses from the Kuda Huvadhoo concurred that the aeroplane was travelling North to South-East, towards the Southern tip of the Maldives – Addu. They also noted the incredibly loud noise that the flight made when it flew over the island.
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Maldives fits one of the satellite tracks and also that nothing has been found. There is a whole lot of nothing past those islands.
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I can tell you this much! If they flew at 5000 feet for very long they didn't get far! You could use the fuel flow meters for fans flying that low!
Good point. The whole reason for traveling at 30-40k. Well, one reason anyway.
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I wonder if the plane is somewhere in Malaysia or even the Philippines, that it circled back and is right in front of everyone's noses, though hidden in rough terrain?
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A lawyer friend from southern West Virginia advises:
Quote
I want you to know we are on our toes down here. While the rest of the world is still looking for the missing 777, we found it.
It is in Mingo County, on cinder blocks, and being used by some locals as a new home. They may be running a meth lab in the back end.
Just so you know.
:laugh: I just watched the movie called "The Game" with Michael Douglas. How are we to know if the testers on board the plane working on making commercial planes invisible, aren't making a massive marketing appeal to their product?
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I wonder if the plane is somewhere in Malaysia or even the Philippines, that it circled back and is right in front of everyone's noses, though hidden in rough terrain?
I have done runs under the radar from time to time (long story, rather boring). Anywhere near land, well, you are looking at your belly being no more than 20 feet off the ground, to get lost in the ground scatter. That is hard enough in a chopper. Doing it in a 777 would be the stuff of legend, and the pilot would never, ever, have to buy another beer ever again.
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Maldives fits one of the satellite tracks and also that nothing has been found. There is a whole lot of nothing past those islands.
Sounds like the search needs to focus west of the Maldives out to a point where it would have run out of fuel. And like what was already said if flying low it would burn fuel much faster
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I have done runs under the radar from time to time (long story, rather boring). Anywhere near land, well, you are looking at your belly being no more than 20 feet off the ground, to get lost in the ground scatter. That is hard enough in a chopper. Doing it in a 777 would be the stuff of legend, and the pilot would never, ever, have to buy another beer ever again.
No chance anyone is going to try and fly a low level run in a 777, at least not for long. It can't turn fast enough and it you bank and yank hard enough its just as likely to stall.
But considering that nobody worth a hoot is monitoring the radar in that area anyway, why bother with a low level when simply popping the breaker on the transponder works just as well??
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Plane Satellite Image Uncovered- Andaman Island:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/9844415/Plane-satellite-image-uncovered
Location:
http://goo.gl/maps/HC3H4
I have no clue if this is legit. There is so much junk going around about this, it is hard to discern.
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Plane Satellite Image Uncovered- Andaman Island:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/9844415/Plane-satellite-image-uncovered
Location:
http://goo.gl/maps/HC3H4
I have no clue if this is legit. There is so much junk going around about this, it is hard to discern.
Could be fake or could be a 767, 787, A300, A310, or an A330. Nothing in the photo tells us it is a 777 or the specific 777 everyone is looking for. Google Earth has captured tons of planes in flight by pure happenstance so it's not uncommon.
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Could be fake or could be a 767, 787, A300, A310, or an A330. Nothing in the photo tells us it is a 777 or the specific 777 everyone is looking for. Google Earth has captured tons of planes in flight by pure happenstance so it's not uncommon.
You are right. It is hard to tell by the profile shown (I can't recognize the 777 without Googling it, I don't think I've ever been on one). The satellite image was from the mass dump DigitalGlobe put out from their images that morning so at least it has the timing.
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Here is DigitalGlobe's crowdsourcing search page.
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014
It is really cool (IMHO). They had imagery from that area that morning so they are recruiting everyone to scrub the images. It is a search area six times the size of the US. Imagine trying to find the image of one airplane in satellite images of the US then multiply that by six. Daunting effort but crowdsourcing is pretty good way to go.
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You are right. It is hard to tell by the profile shown (I can't recognize the 777 without Googling it, I don't think I've ever been on one). The satellite image was from the mass dump DigitalGlobe put out from their images that morning so at least it has the timing.
One good thing about being an aviation nut, I can pretty much ID any commercial aircraft out there in an instant. Been on a 777 once, from ORD to DFW back in 2000. One of the best flights I've been on.
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One good thing about being an aviation nut, I can pretty much ID any commercial aircraft out there in an instant. Been on a 777 once, from ORD to DFW back in 2000. One of the best flights I've been on.
I flew a 777 to New York a few years back.. Very nice plane.
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/18/Report-Indonesia-Refuses-To-Allow-Search-For-Malaysian-Plane-In-Their-Airspace
Report: Indonesia Refuses to Allow Search for Malaysian Plane in Their Airspace
by Frances Martel 18 Mar 2014, 2:15 PM PDT
A web of bureaucratic requirements are preventing a fleet of aircraft from flying over Indonesian airspace to find missing Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, according to a report from the BBC.
Reporter Rupert Wingfield-Hayes visited Malaysia's capital, Kuala Lumpur, to find out why an apparently functional fleet of planes ready to fly over the Indian Ocean in search of the missing flight were grounded. Upon arriving, Hayes was told that Indonesia is refusing to allow Malaysia to fly over their territory, citing "international bureaucracy" that required Malaysia to file for special permissions in the area. Since the planes are of a military nature, they need special permissions to hit the skies, even in case of emergency.
Such bureaucracy grounded planes in Malaysia scheduled to fly over some of the areas where the plane had been suspected of flying over. The planes represented the multinational effort to find the missing flight; search planes from Japan, South Korea, and the United States were left unattended thanks to their inability to fly over the Indonesian island of Java. Watch video of Wingfield-Hayes' BBC report here.
Time is of the essence in the search for the plane, as the black box's battery only lasts 30 days, meaning the box will not be sending out radar signals after that and will become increasingly difficult to find. Additionally, should the plane have fallen in the ocean, it will continue to sink and decay over time, carried by currents that can put it nowhere near the already astronomically large search zone. ABC News reports that Malaysian authorities have narrowed their search to one of two corridors radar analysis has defined as the only areas which the plane could have gone towards--the southern corridor, a stretch of ocean near Australia.
The news of the search being limited to that corridor and not the northern one, which includes India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Kazakhstan, comes just as reports surface of witnesses. A newspaper in the Maldives, an island nation south of India, published a report Tuesday claiming that individuals had seen a "low flying jumbo jet" on the morning after the plane disappeared at 6 AM local time, the appropriate number of hours after the plane left Kuala Lumpur to place it near the Maldives.
Sources have also told the Telegraph that Malaysian authorities' search of the pilot's flight simulator found in his home uncovered that the pilot had practiced landing on five runways in the Indian Ocean, including one in the Maldives. Chinese news outlet Xinhua also reports today that there is evidence of Thai officials seeing a plane on their radar that sufficiently resembles Flight 370 flying near their country on the night of its disappearance, adding more speculation that a search off the coasts of Australia is ill-founded.
The question of the pilot's role in the disappearance has been a pivotal one in the search for clues. Malaysian authorities retracted a report last night that claimed the pilot had made his last contact with air traffic control after the plane's communications systems had shut down, widening the search for a suspect. The pilot, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, is an experienced pilot with ties to Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim, leading many to question whether the plane's disappearance was a political act. Anwar, who is loosely related to Zaharie, has called the allegations "disgusting."
The lack of new information has triggered serious accusations of incompetence from China, whose officials have called Malaysian government investigations “inexperienced and lacking the capacity” to fly the plane. Chinese media outlets have been so incensed with the search that a column in Xinhua today lauded the United States for sharing sensitive radar information with France to search for a missing plane while condemning Malaysia for its secrecy. Most of the passengers on Flight 370 are Chinese nationals, and the plane was en route to Beijing when it disappeared.
Xinhua reports that while Malaysia has yet to ask the Maldives for help in the investigation, they have incorporated the government of nearby Sri Lanka into the search.
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Sounds like the search needs to focus west of the Maldives out to a point where it would have run out of fuel. And like what was already said if flying low it would burn fuel much faster
Except that this would be inconsistent with the plane being on one of those two arcs as per the last "ping" from the plane.
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One good thing about being an aviation nut, I can pretty much ID any commercial aircraft out there in an instant. Been on a 777 once, from ORD to DFW back in 2000. One of the best flights I've been on.
I've done that flight several times in the past five years or so. I've probably been on one. Up until the last merger, I was flying so much, the ticket agent knew me as I walked up. That pretty much dried up the last two years to just two to three times a year. Kind of sad, DFW was becoming a second home.
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Except that this would be inconsistent with the plane being on one of those two arcs as per the last "ping" from the plane.
It depends on which arc map you are looking at. A few have a bubble of range and it wouldn't be that far off from the norther part of the south bubble.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583807/Did-Malaysian-tuna-fisherman-missing-flight-MH370-flying-low-Gulf-Thailand-tried-stay-radar.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583807/Did-Malaysian-tuna-fisherman-missing-flight-MH370-flying-low-Gulf-Thailand-tried-stay-radar.html)
Is this missing Flight MH370? Satellite image apparently showing white-painted plane among jungle is posted on website which lets ordinary people help solve the Malaysian Airlines mystery
Image from map search site appears to show the missing passenger plane
It was reportedly discovered by a Taiwanese university student
The authenticity of the photo has not yet been verified
News comes as villagers report seeing flight at low altitude
By SAM WEBB and RICHARD SHEARS
PUBLISHED: 16:44 EST, 18 March 2014 | UPDATED: 19:38 EST, 18 March 2014
A satellite image appears to show the missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 in the skies above a jungle.
The image is taken from Tomnod, the map search website currently being used by hundreds of thousands of people in an attempt to search for missing passenger plane, and was posted on Reddit on Sunday.
The authenticity of the photo has not yet been verified and the region depicted in the photo is as yet unknown. Intriguingly, the plane appears to have been painted white.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/18/article-2583807-1C655E2800000578-43_634x399.jpg)
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583807/Did-Malaysian-tuna-fisherman-missing-flight-MH370-flying-low-Gulf-Thailand-tried-stay-radar.html#ixzz2wMxMrVLk
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I bet it is photoshopped, short of crashing how in the world would it get where it appears in the photo without crashing - it looks intact.
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Does not look like a 777 in that picture. Looks more like a DC-9, MD80, MD-90 or 717.
Either it is another model in flight, or it is bad idea of a hoax, and a badly done one at that.
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It depends on which arc map you are looking at. A few have a bubble of range and it wouldn't be that far off from the norther part of the south bubble.
except that the Maldives are south-southwest of India so if it crashed, or otherwise came to rest, west of the Maldives, it could not have also made a trip to one of those arcs.
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Does not look like a 777 in that picture. Looks more like a DC-9, MD80, MD-90 or 717.
Either it is another model in flight, or it is bad idea of a hoax, and a badly done one at that.
Yea, there are no engines on the wings in the photo. One of the amazing facts I learned about the 777 when visiting the Everett plant is that the diameter of the engine of a 777 including the cowling is as wide as a body section of a 737. It is truly amazing thing to see standing right in front of one of its fans.
Somebody found a random photo of an airplane taken from a satellite and posted it someplace and the false story grew legs all its own and spread like wildfire.
Also it appears the sun is high in the sky and reflecting on the back of the airplane. The plane I think would have long run out of fuel by that late in the day.
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Where's Waldo game has begun. **nononono* :pondering: :nometalk:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/19/article-2583807-1C60ADBE00000578-636_634x762.jpg)
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Where's Waldo game has begun. **nononono* :pondering: :nometalk:
I see three mermaids. If we are going to make things up, we may as well go for something good. :silly:
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1504089_488201691286551_1489613546_n.jpg)
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I see three mermaids. If we are going to make things up, we may as well go for something good. :silly:
..and unicorns.
I'm stickin' with my original theory...alien got 'em.
And I don't mean to be flip over such a serious topic but...damn! Just damn!
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1504089_488201691286551_1489613546_n.jpg)
:happyhappy:
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OK, I have it.
My neighbors thought the wind blew my fence down, but that's when we put the jet in my backyard.
Grandsons helped me prop the fence back up.
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Don't forget to duct tape the intakes. Don't want dust in there.
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Don't forget to duct tape the intakes. Don't want dust in there.
I'll get the boys on it this weekend. thanks!
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/search-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-370-drastically-narrows/story?id=22975958 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/search-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-370-drastically-narrows/story?id=22975958)
Search for Missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 Drastically Narrows
March 19, 2014
BY ABC NEWS
http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/abc_malaysia_map_search_area-kb_140319_16x9_992.jpg (http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/abc_malaysia_map_search_area-kb_140319_16x9_992.jpg)
American and British aviation officials have refined satellite signals from the missing Malaysia Flight 370 and created two possible flight paths that dramatically narrow the scope of the search to an area off the coast of Australia.
The two possible paths have the plane heading toward the South Pole and ending, experts believe, off of Australia.
U.S. officials familiar with the investigation tell ABC News that the hourly satellite pings from the jet had yielded far more clues than expected, enabling the focus of the search to be cut in half - from an area roughly the size of Texas to that of Arizona.
Calculations by UK and US experts had now been handed over to the Australians to help with the search.
Flight MH370 departed Kuala Lumpur at 12:55 a.m. Friday, and was scheduled to land in Beijing at 6:30 a.m., the airline said. It disappeared two hours into the flight and disappeared off the radar northwest of Kota Bharu, Malaysia, in the South China Sea.
continued
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As I thought....somebody competent finally got ahold of those radar tapes and made some sense out of them. I doubt we will ever know for certain what really happened and this will feed any number of conspiracy theories for years. I just find it difficult to believe that anyone can simply turn the transponder on a commercial airliner off, and not trigger an immediate response. And flying all that distance, with no transponder, through any number of air search radars without anyone saying or doing anything about it is incredible.
The incompetence in all of this is stunning, and Malaysia is lucky this guy didn't decide to fly that plane into one of their pretty skyscrapers, because it would have been all over but for the shouting before anyone in Malaysia did anything about it.
:smokin:
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As I thought....somebody competent finally got ahold of those radar tapes and made some sense out of them. I doubt we will ever know for certain what really happened and this will feed any number of conspiracy theories for years. I just find it difficult to believe that anyone can simply turn the transponder on a commercial airliner off, and not trigger an immediate response. And flying all that distance, with no transponder, through any number of air search radars without anyone saying or doing anything about it is incredible.
I like what Rush said about this. It may be a simple explanation but so many conspiracy theories and wild guesses have taken place, many won't believe the simple explanation.
The incompetence in all of this is stunning, and Malaysia is lucky this guy didn't decide to fly that plane into one of their pretty skyscrapers, because it would have been all over but for the shouting before anyone in Malaysia did anything about it.
:smokin:
Speaking of wild guess, I wonder if this possibly was an attempt at a 9/11 style attack by the pilot or copilot that resulted in damage (fire) in the struggle leaving no pilot or copilot and the plane cruising along on autopilot until it ran out of fuel. Maybe the passengers were completely oblivious until it started nose diving in the ocean. It is somewhere between the two main theories- hijacking and damage.
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Here's a pic of the new, smaller, search area:
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2014/03/world/malaysia-flight-map/media/australia-search-area.jpg)
If that is really where the plane ended up, then it does seem that the pilots weren't controlling the plane and it simply flew on autopilot using the last heading it had been programmed for until it simply ran out of fuel and crashed. If that's what happened, though, I wonder if the passengers were all incapacitated as well, because otherwise it seems to me that they might have noticed something.
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If that is really where the plane ended up, then it does seem that the pilots weren't controlling the plane and it simply flew on autopilot using the last heading it had been programmed for until it simply ran out of fuel and crashed. If that's what happened, though, I wonder if the passengers were all incapacitated as well, because otherwise it seems to me that they might have noticed something.
The Payne Stewart crash on a larger scale?
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The Payne Stewart crash on a larger scale?
It's beginning to look like it, isn't it?
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I wonder if the climb to 45K feet was an attempt to choke out a fire?
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It's beginning to look like it, isn't it?
That was my first inclination....that the rise to above 43K feet was to "get rid" of the passengers. It also explains no calls, texts, tweets....etc., .
Then it becomes one of two choices.
1) Ditch it into the Indian Ocean
2) Fly it to a safe airstrip in a Taliban friendly airport in Pakistan.
I'll take what's behind door number two, Alex..........
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It's beginning to look like it, isn't it?
That's exactly what they are discussing right now on Fox.
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They had time to climb to 45,000 feet to "choke out a fire" but didn't even have time to send a mayday message. That would be against everything these pilots are taught. And climbing to choke out a fire would not be the first thing they would be doing.
The 2 engines and 1 APU all have fire suppression systems. If one of these are on fire the flight crew pulls the fire engine switch, and at that point :
- Fuel is shut off
- Bleed Air is shut off
- Electrical is shut off
- Hyd is shut off and pump depressurised
- Thrust reverser disarmed
-Fire bottles are armed for discharge
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That was my first inclination....that the rise to above 43K feet was to "get rid" of the passengers. It also explains no calls, texts, tweets....etc., .
Then it becomes one of two choices.
1) Ditch it into the Indian Ocean
2) Fly it to a safe airstrip in a Taliban friendly airport in Pakistan.
I'll take what's behind door number two, Alex..........
I'm not sure if I follow the reasoning
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BREAKING: Flight #MH370 Pilot Had FIVE ASIAN RUNWAYS Programmed Into His Home Simulator
Malaysian news reported MH370 Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator had five runways programmed into the system.
The runways included:
** Three airports in India and Sri Lanka
** One airport in Maldives
** One US military base in Diego Garcia
Berita Harian reported that five runways were programmed into Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator.
AU.News reported:
A Malaysian newspaper is reporting that investigations into the flight simulator, seized from the home of one of MH370′s missing pilots, included software for five practice runways around the Indian Ocean, where the desperate search for the plane is continuing.
The Berita Harian is reporting that five runways were programmed into Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator that was taken by police for analysis last Saturday.
The simulator was reassembled at the federal police headquarters in Bukit Aman, where experts conducted the checks.
“Among the software we checked so far is the Male International Airport in Maldives, three airports in India and Sri Lanka, and one belonging to the US military base in Diego Garcia. All have a runway length of 1,000 metres,” a source told the Malay daily.
After 10 days of searching for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, investigators have now conducting extensive background checks on the 239 people on board the plane, including the pilots, crew and passengers.
The Malaysian pilot on missing flight MH370 was reportedly a political fanatic who attended the trial of the country’s opposition leader hours before the flight.
More pictures and graphs at link: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/breaking-flight-mh370-pilot-had-five-asian-runways-programmed-into-his-home-simulator/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/breaking-flight-mh370-pilot-had-five-asian-runways-programmed-into-his-home-simulator/)
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(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1958231_535993733187926_957219875_n.jpg)
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BREAKING: Flight #MH370 Pilot Had FIVE ASIAN RUNWAYS Programmed Into His Home Simulator
Malaysian news reported MH370 Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator had five runways programmed into the system.
The runways included:
** Three airports in India and Sri Lanka
** One airport in Maldives
** One US military base in Diego Garcia
Berita Harian reported that five runways were programmed into Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator.
AU.News reported:
A Malaysian newspaper is reporting that investigations into the flight simulator, seized from the home of one of MH370′s missing pilots, included software for five practice runways around the Indian Ocean, where the desperate search for the plane is continuing.
The Berita Harian is reporting that five runways were programmed into Captain Zaharie Shah’s homemade flight simulator that was taken by police for analysis last Saturday.
The simulator was reassembled at the federal police headquarters in Bukit Aman, where experts conducted the checks.
“Among the software we checked so far is the Male International Airport in Maldives, three airports in India and Sri Lanka, and one belonging to the US military base in Diego Garcia. All have a runway length of 1,000 metres,” a source told the Malay daily.
After 10 days of searching for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, investigators have now conducting extensive background checks on the 239 people on board the plane, including the pilots, crew and passengers.
The Malaysian pilot on missing flight MH370 was reportedly a political fanatic who attended the trial of the country’s opposition leader hours before the flight.
More pictures and graphs at link: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/breaking-flight-mh370-pilot-had-five-asian-runways-programmed-into-his-home-simulator/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/breaking-flight-mh370-pilot-had-five-asian-runways-programmed-into-his-home-simulator/)
The fact that he had the US military base on Diego Garcia in his simulator doesn't really fit with the others if he was looking for places to land a stolen 777. Also, we aren't told how many other airports did he have on his flight simulator?
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They had time to climb to 45,000 feet to "choke out a fire" but didn't even have time to send a mayday message. That would be against everything these pilots are taught. And climbing to choke out a fire would not be the first thing they would be doing.
The 2 engines and 1 APU all have fire suppression systems. If one of these are on fire the flight crew pulls the fire engine switch, and at that point :
- Fuel is shut off
- Bleed Air is shut off
- Electrical is shut off
- Hyd is shut off and pump depressurised
- Thrust reverser disarmed
-Fire bottles are armed for discharge
Fire doesn't just go out in low oxygen environments, it reacts differently. I remember they were doing fire experiments on the ISS.
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If you have a fire in an engine, you dive, not climb. That may help put out the fire.
Also, in Boeing aircraft, an uncontained engine fire will eventually burn through the pylon, resulting in the engine dropping free from the aircraft. This is by design so the fire will not eat into the wing itself.
It actually happened on a BOAC (forerunner to British Airways) 707-465 when engine 2 failed and caught fire. However, the crew did not follow the engine fire drill, thinking it was only an engine failure.
By the time they realized it was a fire, it had spread to the wing because maximum fuel was still being dumped into the burning engine. The breakaway pylon is designed to have the engine fire drill followed at once and correctly, not keep dumping endless fuel into the engine.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/G-ARWE-1.jpg)
The engine did fall away as designed and a photographer actually caught it on film.
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@SavageNation 47s
BREAKING: Intel Group With Source Inside Boeing Says Missing Flight #MH370 Went to Pakistan: Megyn Kelly broke... http://bit.ly/1qXkZkD
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@SavageNation 47s
BREAKING: Intel Group With Source Inside Boeing Says Missing Flight #MH370 Went to Pakistan: Megyn Kelly broke... http://bit.ly/1qXkZkD
1,000 miles off Perth, now Pakistan, what's next? I think I'm just going to stop following this until I see on the front page of my morning paper that they found the da*ned thing.
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@SavageNation 47s
BREAKING: Intel Group With Source Inside Boeing Says Missing Flight #MH370 Went to Pakistan: Megyn Kelly broke... http://bit.ly/1qXkZkD
And tomorrow it went to Iran, and then Indonesia, and then back to the Indian Ocean.
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Don't forget Antarctica
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Pakistan makes more sense, if you're going to go to such elaborate lengths to take a plane and hide where it's going. I also think it would have to be in a country that would "turn it's back" in a surrepticious way to let it land and Pakistan fills the bill. I think our government probably knows where the plane is too - these other searches are wild goose chases to make the terrorists think we don't know.
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Now the USGS weighs in.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/usc000nb9b#summary
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Pakistan makes more sense, if you're going to go to such elaborate lengths to take a plane and hide where it's going. I also think it would have to be in a country that would "turn it's back" in a surrepticious way to let it land and Pakistan fills the bill. I think our government probably knows where the plane is too - these other searches are wild goose chases to make the terrorists think we don't know.
The only problem with the plane getting to Pakistan or Eastern Iran is that they would have had to fly at altitude through Indian airspace for a long period of time without anyone raising an alarm. That simply cannot happen!
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Now the USGS weighs in.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/usc000nb9b#summary
at least they're carefully knocking down another strange "hypothesis".
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The only problem with the plane getting to Pakistan or Eastern Iran is that they would have had to fly at altitude through Indian airspace for a long period of time. That simply cannot happen!
Very good point. I also suspect that if Indian radar spotted an unidentified plane heading in the direction of Pakistan, they would consider it a potential threat and they would have gone after it.
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The only problem with the plane getting to Pakistan or Eastern Iran is that hey would have had to fly at altitude through Indian airspace for a long period of time. That simply cannot happen!
I've heard some talk that the plane could have "shadowed" another plane in some way as to make itself not be noticed on it's own. Is that possible?
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I've heard some talk that the plane could have "shadowed" another plane in some way as to make itself not be noticed on it's own. Is that possible?
In theory, but highly unlikely. It would require a lot of manual flying, and also to know when and where the aircraft to follow would have been.
With all of the electronics disabled, the lead aircraft's TCAS would not have detected another aircraft being close to it.
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I've heard some talk that the plane could have "shadowed" another plane in some way as to make itself not be noticed on it's own. Is that possible?
It's theoretically possible but practically a real stretch! The pilot who could do that for any length of time at night doesn't exist IMHO.
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I'm not sure if I follow the reasoning
I was thinking that maybe there was an insurrection among the rest of the crew and together with the passengers tried to gain access to the cockpit.
Like somebody else said....a number of people know the punch key sequence to unlock the door.
If one of the goals was for the plane to literally disappear, it could be the reason he rendered everyone unconscious asap....and not just dive it into the ground like flight 93 supposedly did in Pennsylvania.
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In theory, but highly unlikely. It would require a lot of manual flying, and also to know when and where the aircraft to follow would have been.
With all of the electronics disabled, the lead aircraft's TCAS would not have detected another aircraft being close to it.
Okay - and I know this is a real stretch here, but I'm letting my imagination "free-flow" - what if the plane that was being "shadowed" was piloted by a pilot that was in on the plot?
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Okay - and I know this is a real stretch here, but I'm letting my imagination "free-flow" - what if the plane that was being "shadowed" was piloted by a pilot that was in on the plot?
I think that is just too out there @ this point. The people in the plane ahead would not know someone was behind them.
Also, there is something called wake turbulence, all aircraft generate it. The bigger the aircraft, the more severe it is. Following close behind a similar or larger sized aircraft (747, A330, A340, A380, 777) would be extremely hazardous.
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I think that is just too out there @ this point. The people in the plane ahead would not know someone was behind them.
Also, there is something called wake turbulence, all aircraft generate it. The bigger the aircraft, the more severe it is. Following close behind a similar or larger sized aircraft (747, A330, A340, A380, 777) would be extremely hazardous.
isn't that what brought down the jet that crashed into Queens, American Airlines Flight 587?
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What about the possibility that the flight took over another's identity signature?
Yes, it takes collusion, but it's still not nineteen on four different flights at the same time? [/s]
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Possible debris found per Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/abbott-says-possible-objects-found-mh370/5334314
Prime Minister Tony Abbott has announced objects possibly related to the search for the missing Malaysian Airlines plane have been found in the southern Indian Ocean.
Mr Abbott says new satellite images show two possible objects in the ocean and an Australian Orion aircraft is en route to the area.
The plane has been missing since it disappeared en route to Beijing from Malaysia on March 8.
More to come.
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isn't that what brought down the jet that crashed into Queens, American Airlines Flight 587?
Yes and no. The A300 encountered the wake turbulence of a previously departed Japan Airlines Boeing 747-400. This alone would not cause a modern commercial aircraft to break apart.
The copilot began countering the turbulence with the rudder, and did so with such force that it overstressed the vertical fin and caused it to snap off. The more he moved the rudder, the more control seemed to be degrading so he moved the rudder even harder which led to structural failure. It's just like when a driver hits the shoulder or side of the road they over correcting and end up either flipping or crossing into oncoming traffic. Just a small tap to get back under control is all that is needed.
Edit: Grammar fix.
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Possible debris found per Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/abbott-says-possible-objects-found-mh370/5334314
We've heard that before. I'll believe it when they actually pull something from the ocean that is identifiable.
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Yes and no. The A300 encountered the wake turbulence of a previously departed Japan Airlines Boeing 747-400. This alone would not cause a modern commercial aircraft to break apart.
The copilot being countering the turbulence with the rudder, and did so with such force that it overstressed the vertical fin and caused it to snap off. The more he moved the rudder, the more control seemed to be degrading so he moved the rudder even harder which led to structural failure. It's just like when a driver hits the shoulder or side of the road they over correcting and end up either flipping or crossing into oncoming traffic. Just a small tap to get back under control is all that is needed.
thanks
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Don Lemon on @CNN now asking if missing flight could have gone into a black hole. Jeff Zucker must be loving this. @CNNPR #bizarroworldnews
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Don Lemon on @CNN now asking if missing flight could have gone into a black hole. Jeff Zucker must be loving this. @CNNPR #bizarroworldnews
CNN needed something to boost their rating, and this is it.
Of course, once this has passed, they'll be back in the toilet once again.
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Just updated, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority will hold a press conference at 3.30pm AEDT. (under an hour)
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/satellites-detect-possible-mh370-debris-in-southern-indian-ocean-aircraft-on-way-to-site-2014-3
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This may be the best source for info now.
https://www.amsa.gov.au/media/
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To date there are 100 possibilities of what happened to that airplane. 99 of them will be wrong.
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To date there are 100 possibilities of what happened to that airplane. 99 of them will be wrong.
I'm still voting for aliens, a rupture of the space-time continuum, or a mad scientist.
Better than 1/2 the theories that some of the "experts" in the media have been spewing.
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This may be the best source for info now.
https://www.amsa.gov.au/media/
that site's getting slammed now
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Shepard Smith is calling the P-3 a "Or-Eee-An" instead of Orion.
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BREAKING NEWS. Aussies spot possible 777 debris
Large floating debris see by satellite off Australia. Ships and aircraft on the way for a closer look. Keep your fingers crossed this is not another false lead.
http://www.king5.com/news/aerospace/Australia-checking-2-objects-in-search-for-plane-251131611.html
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Australia's prime minister said Thursday two objects possibly related to the missing Malaysia Airlines flight have been spotted on satellite imagery and an air force aircraft was diverted to the area to try to locate them.
The Orion aircraft was expected to arrive in the area Thursday afternoon, Prime Minister Tony Abott told Parliament in Canberra. Three additional aircraft are expected to follow for a more intensive search, he said.
Abbott cautioned, however, that the task of locating these objects will be extremely difficult and "it may turn out that they are not related to the search for flight MH370."
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Shepard Smith is calling the P-3 a "Or-Eee-An" instead of Orion.
:silly: Has he called the P-8 Poseidon Po-See-Dan yet?
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Agggh! I was hoping there'd be something more definitive when I got up
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Agggh! I was hoping there'd be something more definitive when I got up
Same here, but I had the sinking feeling when I went to bed that this again would turn out to be nothing.
I thought maybe because they brought out the prime minister to make the announcement rather than a spokesperson of some far lower pay grade that it gave the story some credibility. But nope.... Just more of the same - "hey! look over there - made you look"
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Same here, but I had the sinking feeling when I went to bed that this again would turn out to be nothing.
I thought maybe because they brought out the prime minister to make the announcement rather than a spokesperson of some far lower pay grade that it gave the story some credibility. But nope.... Just more of the same - "hey! look over there - made you look"
At least we don't (didn't) have family members on that plane; I can't imagine the anguish they go through every time it happens.
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At least we don't (didn't) have family members on that plane; I can't imagine the anguish they go through every time it happens.
Even on this latest debris off Australia story I have seen so many different reports that totally contradict each other. The one I woke up to on my radio was that the satellite image was found to be small freighters. Other reports said the area was searched but nothing was found, but rain was hampering the search. Another report I just read on a web news site that said the debris was being picked up and returned for evaluation, and yet another said the P-8 Poseidon was able to locate a large object “under the water” also off Australia but not in the same location as the debris. It’s getting to the point I wish they would all shut up until we have something substantial.
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Even on this latest debris off Australia story I have seen so many different reports that totally contradict each other. The one I woke up to on my radio was that the satellite image was found to be small freighters. Other reports said the area was searched but nothing was found, but rain was hampering the search. Another report I just read on a web news site that said the debris was being picked up and returned for evaluation, and yet another said the P-8 Poseidon was able to locate a large object “under the water” also off Australia but not in the same location as the debris. It’s getting to the point I wish they would all shut up until we have something substantial.
I agree that they should not discuss things they haven't already vetted
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I agree that they should not discuss things they haven't already vetted
When they have nothing, they must say something.
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Latest report is that Prime Minster Abbott has personally briefed Chinese President Xi Jinping. From the report, Xi Jinping was "devastated" by the briefing which says that they know something which no one making public yet.
If the objects spotted are indeed debris from Flight 370, then there are likely ultra high resolution images, far better than those from the commercial satellite which initially spotted the debris. Since the debris was initially spotted 4 days ago, that's more than enough time for something like the National Reconnaissance Office to get one of its high end satellites to photograph the region, or heck, even send up a U-2.
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Latest report is that Prime Minster Abbott has personally briefed Chinese President Xi Jinping. From the report, Xi Jinping was "devastated" by the briefing which says that they know something which no one making public yet.
If the objects spotted are indeed debris from Flight 370, then there are likely ultra high resolution images, far better than those from the commercial satellite which initially spotted the debris. Since the debris was initially spotted 4 days ago, that's more than enough time for something like the National Reconnaissance Office to get one of its high end satellites to photograph the region, or heck, even send up a U-2.
Could it be that they're pretty sure that the plane hit the water and all passengers are dead?
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Could it be that they're pretty sure that the plane hit the water and all passengers are dead?
Hit the water, hit land, landed on some deserted air strip - you can figure all the passengers are dead in any case. Why keep them alive?
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Hit the water, hit land, landed on some deserted air strip - you can figure all the passengers are dead in any case. Why keep them alive?
yes, but so far the uncertainty, the not-knowing, has allowed many to keep their hopes alive - it's just human nature - and thus when reality finally dashes those hopes it's "devastating."
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Hit the water, hit land, landed on some deserted air strip - you can figure all the passengers are dead in any case. Why keep them alive?
In all the speculation and wild assumptions, if the plane was actually hijacked and intended to be used as a weapon, the only reason to keep the passengers alive would be to use them as shields in the hope that whomever was being targeted would hesitate before shooting it down. Then, as the theories go, someone like Israel would have to deal with the fallout of killing innocents. Of course the terrorists would be absolved of any wrong doing.
In the end, you refer back to the original comment, the passengers are all dead.
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http://www.newsmax.com/PrintTemplate.aspx/?nodeid=560886 (http://www.newsmax.com/PrintTemplate.aspx/?nodeid=560886)
Newsmax
Australia Says Nothing Spotted in Search for Plane
Friday, March 21, 2014 07:16 AM
By: KRISTEN GELINEAU
The international team hunting Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 in the remote southern Indian Ocean failed to turn up anything on Friday, and Australia's deputy prime minister said the suspected debris may have sunk.
Aircraft and ships have also renewed a search in the Andaman Sea between India and Thailand, going over areas that have already been exhaustively swept to find some clue to unlock one of the biggest mysteries in modern aviation.
The Boeing 777 went missing almost two weeks ago off the Malaysian coast with 239 people aboard. There has been no confirmed sign of wreckage but two objects seen floating deep south in the Indian Ocean were considered a credible lead and set off a huge hunt on Thursday.
Australian authorities said the first aircraft to sweep treacherous seas on Friday about 2,500 km (1,500 miles) southwest of Perth was on its way back to base without spotting the objects picked out by satellite images five days ago.
"Something that was floating on the sea that long ago may no longer be floating," Deputy Prime Minister Warren Truss told reporters in Perth. "It may have slipped to the bottom."
But the search was continuing and Australian, New Zealand and U.S. aircraft would be joined by Chinese and Japanese planes over the weekend.
"It's about the most inaccessible spot that you can imagine on the face of the Earth, but if there is anything down there, we will find it," Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott told reporters in Papua New Guinea, where he is on a visit.
"Now it could just be a container that's fallen off a ship. We just don't know, but we owe it to the families and the friends and the loved ones to do everything we can to try to resolve what is as yet an extraordinary riddle."
India said it was sending two aircraft, a Poseidon P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft and a C-130 Hercules transporter, to join the hunt in the southern Indian Ocean. It is also sending another P-8I and four warships to search in the Andaman Sea, where the plane was last seen on military radar on March 8.
In New Delhi, officials said the search in areas around the Andaman island chain was not at the request of Malaysian authorities coordinating the global search for the airliner.
"All the navies of the world have SAR regions," said Capt. D.K. Sharma, an Indian navy spokesman, referring to search and rescue regions. "So we're doing it at our own behest."
Investigators suspect Flight MH370, which took off from Kuala Lumpur for Beijing shortly after midnight on March 8, was deliberately diverted thousands of miles from its scheduled path. They say they are focusing on hijacking or sabotage but have not ruled out technical problems.
The search for the plane also continues in other regions, including a wide arc sweeping northward from Laos to Kazakhstan.
In the Indian Ocean, three Australian and two Japanese P-3 Orions joined a high-tech U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon and a civilian Bombardier Global Express jet to search the 23,000 square km (8,900 sq mile) zone, Australian and Malaysian authorities said.
A Norwegian merchant ship, the Hoegh St. Petersburg, was diverted to the area on Thursday and another vessel would arrive later on Friday.
An Australian navy ship was expected to arrive in the search area on Saturday and Britain's HMS Echo, a multi-purpose ocean survey vessel, was also heading to the region, Malaysia said.
China's icebreaker for Antarctic research, Xuelong, or Snow Dragon, will set off from Perth to search the area, Chinese state news agency Xinhua cited maritime authorities as saying. Up to five more Chinese ships, with three ship-borne helicopters, were steaming towards the search zone from across the Indian Ocean.
Australian authorities said they had not asked for the ships to search the area. About two-thirds of the missing plane's passengers were Chinese nationals.
Malaysian Defence Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that searchers were facing a "long haul" but were conscious that the clock was ticking. The plane's "black box" voice and data recorder only transmits an electronic signal for about 30 days before its battery dies, after which it will be far more difficult to locate.
It took investigators two years to find the black box from a Air France jetliner that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean on a stormy night in June 2009.
"If we do not find it within the 30 days, it brings in other issues of how to locate it - as the French airline had to take two years. That comes into a different realm of search and rescue," Hishammuddin said.
STUDYING SATELLITES
There have been many false leads and no confirmed wreckage found from Flight MH370 since it vanished off Malaysia's east coast less than an hour after taking off.
There has also been criticism of the search operation and investigation, as more than two dozen countries scramble to overcome logistical and diplomatic hurdles.
Investigators piecing together patchy data from military radar and satellites believe that, minutes after its identifying transponder was switched off as it crossed the Gulf of Thailand, the plane turned sharply west, re-crossing the Malay Peninsula and following an established route towards India.
What happened next is unclear, but faint electronic "pings" picked up by one commercial satellite suggest the aircraft flew on for at least six hours.
A source with direct knowledge of the situation said that information gleaned from the pings had been passed to investigators within a few days, but it took Malaysia more than a week to narrow the search area to two large arcs - one reaching south to near where the potential debris was spotted, and a second crossing to the north into China and central Asia.
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In all the speculation and wild assumptions, if the plane was actually hijacked and intended to be used as a weapon, the only reason to keep the passengers alive would be to use them as shields in the hope that whomever was being targeted would hesitate before shooting it down. Then, as the theories go, someone like Israel would have to deal with the fallout of killing innocents. Of course the terrorists would be absolved of any wrong doing.
In the end, you refer back to the original comment, the passengers are all dead.
Everything we have heard so far has been speculation and wild assumptions. At this point I can’t believe anything that was said. For all we know the pilots under so much scrutiny and suspicion were heroes and did a Captain Sully and had everyone standing on a wing until the airplane could stay afloat no longer. Even that wild assumption is still a possibility. Like the song says, we are working on mysteries without any clues.
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New Theory Suggests Flight 370 Landed in Pakistan - News from InsideEdition.com
http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/7978-new-theory-suggests-flight-370-landed-in-pakistan (http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/7978-new-theory-suggests-flight-370-landed-in-pakistan)
A new story every day.
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It seems to me that this was an extremely effective and successful terrorist act, for whatever reason. The aircraft will likely never be found, international air traffic has been disrupted and a whole bunch of different nations are spending a lot of money trying to find all these people.
Massive disruption of some sort is the goal of any terrorist, and you don't have to fly a plane into a building to create terror.
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It seems to me that this was an extremely effective and successful terrorist act, for whatever reason. The aircraft will likely never be found, international air traffic has been disrupted and a whole bunch of different nations are spending a lot of money trying to find all these people.
Massive disruption of some sort is the goal of any terrorist, and you don't have to fly a plane into a building to create terror.
The terror aspect is missing. so far there's been a lot of activity and the family are grief-stricken, but there is no broader sense of fear or dread - terror - amongst the general population.
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The terror aspect is missing. so far there's been a lot of activity and the family are grief-stricken, but there is no broader sense of fear or dread - terror - amongst the general population.
And I guess we should thank Allah that these two didn't fly the plane into a building in Kuala Lumpur. And I submit that anyone flying on a Malaysian airliner, or in or near Malaysian airspace is probably feeling damned terrified.
Remember the bombings in Bali?? Those only killed 202 people...
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Michael Savage....who beats the hell out of Sean Hannity in every market...was speaking about it from another angle today.
He wasn't positing one way or another, but it seems the Russians were/are aware of not only WHO was on the plane (they were tracking an individual in coordination with the Chinese), but WHAT was on the plane. Some theories are experts in stealth technology...actually "cloak" technology.
Secondly, two SEALS under contract with a private firm guarding shipments of chemicals and other nasty agents were found murdered on the Mersk-Alabama...coincidentally, Captain Phillips' ship. http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/world/asia/seychelles-maersk-deaths/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/19/world/asia/seychelles-maersk-deaths/)
This ship was also being tracked for shipments picked up in a certain port.
So...the plane was not crashed. It's parked somewhere. All passengers (except said tech experts) were asphyxiated at 45K feet.
We should all be suspect that the FBI has control of the pilot's computer....with merely a promise to provide the Malaysian government all information before providing it to the media and public.
As if Mr. Obama would tell us if a Boeing 777 is out there filled with WMD.
We're NEVER going to know where this plane went. It's a tragedy for 239 families.
One more thing....why hasn't "Mrs. Pilot" been located? You don't just 'disappear'...unless somebody disappeared you.
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And I guess we should thank Allah that these two didn't fly the plane into a building in Kuala Lumpur. And I submit that anyone flying on a Malaysian airliner, or in or near Malaysian airspace is probably feeling damned terrified.
Remember the bombings in Bali?? Those only killed 202 people...
Bombings in Bali? Not really. But I do remember 9/11. I also remember 1993. And why would anyone flying on a Malaysian airliner necessarily feel fear? This is so far outside the realm of both ordinary incompetence and terrorism that it doesn't give any basis for fearing that the same thing will happen again on the next Malaysian Air flight.
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Everything we have heard so far has been speculation and wild assumptions. At this point I can’t believe anything that was said. For all we know the pilots under so much scrutiny and suspicion were heroes and did a Captain Sully and had everyone standing on a wing until the airplane could stay afloat no longer. Even that wild assumption is still a possibility. Like the song says, we are working on mysteries without any clues.
Charles Krauthammer said something to the tune of "Everyday there is a new fact and at the end of the day, we find out it's not true."
Working on mysteries without any clues was fun though. :laugh:
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CNN has it figured out.
(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr03/21/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-20237-1382388798-15.gif)
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CNN has it figured out.
(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr03/21/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-20237-1382388798-15.gif)
:bigsilly:
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CNN has it figured out.
(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr03/21/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-20237-1382388798-15.gif)
:bigsilly: :laughingdog:
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The area they're focusing upon has a somewhat circular...counter clockwise current.
With all the shipping routes in the area, it's not uncommon to find 'acres' of debris floating on the surface.
What's so special about a wooden pallet?
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/23/article-2587209-1C832EA200000578-980_634x413.jpg)
France says satellite images of objects could be from missing flight MH370 | Mail Online
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587209/Now-France-says-satellite-images-objects-missing-MH370-airliner.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587209/Now-France-says-satellite-images-objects-missing-MH370-airliner.html)
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I like how everything is now from MH370. That looks like anything from a cluster of seaweed to something expelled from a ship's waste system.
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Police hunt mystery woman who made final phone call to doomed jet captain as first picture emerges of his estranged wife and family
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587064/Probe-mystery-call-captain-doomed-jet-Unknown-woman-used-fake-ID-buying-phone-bypass-security-checks.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587064/Probe-mystery-call-captain-doomed-jet-Unknown-woman-used-fake-ID-buying-phone-bypass-security-checks.html)
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Police hunt mystery woman who made final phone call to doomed jet captain as first picture emerges of his estranged wife and family
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587064/Probe-mystery-call-captain-doomed-jet-Unknown-woman-used-fake-ID-buying-phone-bypass-security-checks.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587064/Probe-mystery-call-captain-doomed-jet-Unknown-woman-used-fake-ID-buying-phone-bypass-security-checks.html)
A source said: ‘Faizah has been spoken to gently by officers but she has not been questioned in detail to establish her husband’s behaviour and state of mind in the days leading to the incident.
The latest release of a war-themed computer game – centred on a passenger plane that crashes on to a desert island in the South China Sea – has been delayed as the search for missing flight MH370 continues.
Battlefield 4 Naval Strike, an update for the Battlefield 4 game which has sold millions of copies worldwide, was due for release last week – but has now been put back until Tuesday.
‘This is partly for cultural reasons. It is not considered appropriate in Malaysia to subject people in situations of terrible bereavement to the stress of intensive questioning.’
The softly-softly approach has been challenged by the team of FBI agents working with Malaysian police. They have pointed out that she may hold ‘vital clues and information’ to Zaharie’s mental state.
‘The whole world is looking for this missing plane and the person who arguably knows most about the state of mind of the man who captained the plane is being left alone,’ said a source close to the FBI team.
The source added: ‘If we want to eliminate the chief pilot from the inquiry, we must interview her in detail to find out what his state of mind was.’
I think Malaysia knows a helluva lot more than what we are being told. This entire thing is bat crazy!
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Mother Jones had to bring Gorebull Warming into the mix.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/climate-change-malaysia-airlines-370-search
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I think Malaysia knows a helluva lot more than what we are being told. This entire thing is bat crazy!
Absolutely. The Malaysians know a helluva lot more than they're letting on.
The first question....why did she and the children move out of the apartment the day before the flight?
Was this a love triangle?
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Mother Jones had to bring Gorebull Warming into the mix.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/climate-change-malaysia-airlines-370-search
(http://www.troll.me/images/ancient-aliens-guy/you-really-cant-make-this-shit-up.jpg)
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http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=133353.new#new
Generators don't suddenly fail. Not on a plane. Maybe we are looking at terribly sub standard maintenance?
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Here we go again. We can only hope, but like someone posted earlier, The breaking news “new facts” you learn about when you wake up are disproved by the time you go to bed.
Australian aircraft spots new objects in hunt for Flight 370
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
(CNN) -- An Australian aircraft searching for the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 has spotted two objects that could be retrieved by a naval vessel in the coming hours, authorities said Monday.
One object is "a grey or green circular object," and the other is "an orange rectangular object," the Australian Maritime Safety Authority said.
They are separate from "suspicious objects" reported earlier Monday by a Chinese military plane that was involved in search efforts in the same region, authorities said.
The reports from the search teams combing an isolated area of the southern Indian Ocean have once again raised hopes of meaningful progress in the hunt for the plane.
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Another two whole floating objects eh? There should be a floating debris field somewhere. Some things do eventually waterlog and sink, while other items float nearly forever. Look at the debris that is still washing up on the West Coast from the Japanese tsunami.
Where is the debris? A plane that big hitting the water isn't going to just sink quietly. It would break up into many pieces that would themselves break up further due to wave action. One break in the fuselage would release thousands of floating items from the passenger compartment alone. This would not have been like a dead-stick landing in the Hudson River. This is a much bigger plane, with enormous engines hanging under each wing, that would not stay attached in a water landing. Ditching at sea is incredibly risky and I just don't see this plane surviving ditching.
But this whole thing has been based on so much supposition, after incredible incompetence and rice-bowl mentality across the board from Malaysia, that I will be amazed if any trace of this plane is ever found. In my book that makes this a successful terrorist action, and I believe this plane went missing due to the deliberate actions of someone who was able to disappear all those people without blowing them up or flying into a building.
:smokin:
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http://news.yahoo.com/malaysia-pm-press-briefing-missing-plane-1400-gmt-125651364--sector.html (http://news.yahoo.com/malaysia-pm-press-briefing-missing-plane-1400-gmt-125651364--sector.html)
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak will hold a press conference at 10.00 pm (1400 GMT) on new developments on the missing Malaysia Airlines plane, the Star newspaper said on Monday citing a government official.
No other details were given.
(Reporting by Niluksi Koswanage; E
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Chinese plane spots objects in Indian Ocean
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/24/chinese-plane-spots-objects-in-indian-ocean/20855070/#!slide=2497426 (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/24/chinese-plane-spots-objects-in-indian-ocean/20855070/#!slide=2497426)
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Malaysia Airlines summon relatives of flight MH370 passengers for emergency meeting ahead of press conference set to reveal ‘new developments
Relatives of passengers on the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 have been called to an emergency meeting in Beijing, it has been claimed.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak meanwhile has also announced he was due to hold a press conference at 2pm on the latest developments in the search for the missing plane.
According to Sky News, the families of the passengers on the missing plane are also due to be booked on to flights to take them to Australia.
Both of the announcements were made as an Australian navy ship was on its way today to retrieve two new objects spotted by military aircraft in the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines jet.
HMAS Success was expected to reach the two objects by tomorrow morning at the latest, Malaysia's government said, as a mounting number of sightings of floating objects raised hopes wreckage of the plane may soon be found.
So far, ships in the international search effort have been unable to locate several 'suspicious' objects spotted by satellites in grainy images or by fast-flying aircraft over a vast search area in the remote southern Indian Ocean.
'HMAS Success is on scene and is attempting to locate and recover these objects,' Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, who called his Malaysia counterpart Najib Razak to inform him of the sighting, said in a statement to parliament.
Pictures and more of article at link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587209/Now-France-says-satellite-images-objects-missing-MH370-airliner.html#ixzz2wt6bvUaS
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news.com.au @newscomauHQ 36s
RT "@bbc5live BBC learns Malaysia Airlines tells MH370 families that 'beyond any reasonable doubt MH370 has been lost'"
Chuck Todd @chucktodd 3m
You read that right... Malaysian Airlines sent the families a TEXT message about the plane being presumed lost in the Indian Ocean.. A TEXT
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news.com.au @newscomauHQ 36s
RT "@bbc5live BBC learns Malaysia Airlines tells MH370 families that 'beyond any reasonable doubt MH370 has been lost'"
Chuck Todd @chucktodd 3m
You read that right... Malaysian Airlines sent the families a TEXT message about the plane being presumed lost in the Indian Ocean.. A TEXT
Chuck Todd need not be so shocked at ineptness. It happens daily in the Obama WH.
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The Malaysian Prime Minister just informed the public the plane has crashed in the Indian Ocean. On Fox now.
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Peter Doocy @pdoocy 1m
Malaysian PM says new satellite data shows: "Flight MH370 ended in the Southern Indian Ocean", far from any possible landing sites
The Associated Press @AP 2m
BREAKING: Malaysia prime minister says new data show missing plane plunged into southern Indian Ocean.
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Telegraph:
14.00 BREAKING: The Malaysian prime minister is speaking. He says from new analysis of satellite data, investigators have concluded that MH370 "flew along the southern corridor and that its last position was in the middle of the Indian Ocean west of Perth. This is a remote location, far from any possible landing sites. It is therefore with deep sadness and regret that I must inform you that according to this new data, flight MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean."
Najib Razak says Malaysian authorities will be holding a press conference tomorrow, and that the airline has already informed the families of passengers and crew of these developments. "I know this news must be hardest of all," says.
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Telegraph:
14.00 BREAKING: The Malaysian prime minister is speaking. He says from new analysis of satellite data, investigators have concluded that MH370 "flew along the southern corridor and that its last position was in the middle of the Indian Ocean west of Perth. This is a remote location, far from any possible landing sites. It is therefore with deep sadness and regret that I must inform you that according to this new data, flight MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean."
Najib Razak says Malaysian authorities will be holding a press conference tomorrow, and that the airline has already informed the families of passengers and crew of these developments. "I know this news must be hardest of all," says.
Until tomorrow when someone sees a gum wrapper in another ocean. This is so sad for the families. They must know the airlines and authorities are making stuff up as they go along.
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More from the Telegraph (U.K.) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10718181/Malaysia-Airlines-MH370-live.html):
14.09 Here is the full statement from Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak on investigators' conclusion that MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean and that no one on board survived:
This evening I was briefed by representatives from the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB). They informed me that Inmarsat, the UK company that provided the satellite data which indicated the northern and southern corridors, has been performing further calculations on the data. Using a type of analysis never before used in an investigation of this sort, they have been able to shed more light on MH370’s flight path.
Based on their new analysis, Inmarsat and the AAIB have concluded that MH370 flew along the southern corridor, and that its last position was in the middle of the Indian Ocean, west of Perth.
This is a remote location, far from any possible landing sites. It is therefore with deep sadness and regret that I must inform you that, according to this new data, flight MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean.
We will be holding a press conference tomorrow with further details. In the meantime, we wanted to inform you of this new development at the earliest opportunity. We share this information out of a commitment to openness and respect for the families, two principles which have guided this investigation.
Malaysia Airlines have already spoken to the families of the passengers and crew to inform them of this development. For them, the past few weeks have been heartbreaking; I know this news must be harder still. I urge the media to respect their privacy, and to allow them the space they need at this difficult time.
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As the where and when become clearer the focus can shift to the how and why. Hope at some point they are able to recover the black box
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that general who was on FOX saying it landed in Pakistan may be a bit upset by this news
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CNN may be upset by this news, the plane didn't go into a black hole :smokin:
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Until tomorrow when someone sees a gum wrapper in another ocean. This is so sad for the families. They must know the airlines and authorities are making stuff up as they go along.
What would you do?
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that general who was on FOX saying it landed in Pakistan may be a bit upset by this news
McInerny loses major credibility by crawling out on the limb that the plane landed in Pakistan. I don't know how he recovers from this as any kind of analyst.
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McInerny loses major credibility by crawling out on the limb that the plane landed in Pakistan. I don't know how he recovers from this as any kind of analyst.
I agree.
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MH370 WAS carrying highly flammable lithium batteries admits CEO of Malaysian Airlines | Mail Online
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586308/Missing-jet-WAS-carrying-highly-flammable-lithium-batteries-CEO-Malaysian-Airlines-finally-admits-dangerous-cargo.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586308/Missing-jet-WAS-carrying-highly-flammable-lithium-batteries-CEO-Malaysian-Airlines-finally-admits-dangerous-cargo.html)
The smoke on the plane theory will probably be used to provide closure and end this speculation.
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The smoke on the plane theory will probably be used to provide closure and end this speculation.
Show of hands! How many think that the plane could have continued to fly for even one hour, much less 6 or 7, if there had been a major fire in the cargo hold regardless of what caused that fire?
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/24/malaysia-jet-search-races-against-weather-as-china-reports-new-object-sighting/
Malaysia PM says missing jetliner's flight ended in Indian Ocean
MEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Show of hands! How many think that the plane could have continued to fly for even one hour, much less 6 or 7, if there had been a major fire in the cargo hold regardless of what caused that fire?
I don't know, brother. 777's are pretty tough (don't forget, they are the civil version of a refueling tanker) and autopilots can do most everything but make a decent cup of coffee. If the batteries go out, you still have the gennies on engines 1 and 3, load balanced, the majority of the fly by wire system is safe in the roof of the cabin and at 35,000 feet, no fire is going to last for long.
I'd not call it impossible.
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I don't know, brother. 777's are pretty tough (don't forget, they are the civil version of a refueling tanker) and autopilots can do most everything but make a decent cup of coffee. If the batteries go out, you still have the gennies on engines 1 and 3, load balanced, the majority of the fly by wire system is safe in the roof of the cabin and at 35,000 feet, no fire is going to last for long.
I'd not call it impossible.
Nothing is impossible but that scenario is HIGHLY unlikely! If and when they find the cockpit voice recorder we will know if anything like that happened because it will be an endless blank tape.
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Talked to a nephew who's a commercial pilot, and he figured this was the most likely scenario.
Lots of blank spaces in the Indian Ocean from a communication perspective.
He figured that was why it took so long to figure things out.
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Show of hands! How many think that the plane could have continued to fly for even one hour, much less 6 or 7, if there had been a major fire in the cargo hold regardless of what caused that fire?
Based on this video, I possibly could see it going something like this:
Lithium batteries ignite releasing a LOT of toxic smoke in the cabin, incapacitating the passengers and crew (see prior theory about shutting down systems to isolate the fire). That one little battery in the video produces a massive amount of toxic smoke before you ever see a single flame. Imagine hundreds of those things. Once the batteries start actually burning versus releasing smoke, the fire suppression system kicks in putting out the fire before it damages the vital structure but not soon enough to have prevented killing or incapacitating the crew. The plane continues to fly on with auto pilot. Radio damage may have happened early in the fire which is why there wasn't a call out after the fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhDnHx6umCg
This still leaves a lot of open questions we may never know or find out much later if the black box is found.
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Toxicity of the smoke- http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002805.htm
This is based on a 'button' battery (Lithium one of those listed).
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It is global warming/Climate Changes fault! Are they really this stupid?
One Reason It May Be Harder to Find Flight 370: We Messed Up the Currents | Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/climate-change-malaysia-airlines-370-search (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/climate-change-malaysia-airlines-370-search)
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Show of hands! How many think that the plane could have continued to fly for even one hour, much less 6 or 7, if there had been a major fire in the cargo hold regardless of what caused that fire?
Not I!
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Based on this video, I possibly could see it going something like this:
Lithium batteries ignite releasing a LOT of toxic smoke in the cabin, incapacitating the passengers and crew (see prior theory about shutting down systems to isolate the fire). That one little battery in the video produces a massive amount of toxic smoke before you ever see a single flame. Imagine hundreds of those things. Once the batteries start actually burning versus releasing smoke, the fire suppression system kicks in putting out the fire before it damages the vital structure but not soon enough to have prevented killing or incapacitating the crew. The plane continues to fly on with auto pilot. Radio damage may have happened early in the fire which is why there wasn't a call out after the fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhDnHx6umCg
This still leaves a lot of open questions we may never know or find out much later if the black box is found.
But how did the autopilot get programmed to fly into the southern Indian Ocean? The original program was to fly to Beijing.
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Ok, next round of speculation: what sort of additional safety/locator devices do people think aircraft will be required to have as a result of this event? Will there be some sort of a master locator beacon that cannot be turned off by anyone from inside the aircraft short of dismantling part of the structure itself?
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Ok, next round of speculation: what sort of additional safety/locator devices do people think aircraft will be required to have as a result of this event? Will there be some sort of a master locator beacon that cannot be turned off by anyone from inside the aircraft short of dismantling part of the structure itself?
I am no aviation expert but I think there should be some sort of GPS locator device that uniquely identifies each single aircraft that cannot be turned off from inside the aircraft required on all commercial aircraft. This device would be continuously powered up anytime there was even one engine running on the aircraft.
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I am no aviation expert but I think there should be some sort of GPS locator device that uniquely identifies each single aircraft that cannot be turned off from inside the aircraft required on all commercial aircraft. This device would be continuously powered up anytime there was even one engine running on the aircraft.
It exists. Has 22 hour battery life, constantly broadcasts in flight (including taxiing) Reports height, speed and position every 15 seconds.
Is not obligatory.
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Ok, next round of speculation: what sort of additional safety/locator devices do people think aircraft will be required to have as a result of this event? Will there be some sort of a master locator beacon that cannot be turned off by anyone from inside the aircraft short of dismantling part of the structure itself?
I never knew they could be dismantled until this. I agree with your statement.
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It exists. Has 22 hour battery life, constantly broadcasts in flight (including taxiing) Reports height, speed and position every 15 seconds.
Is not obligatory.
22 hours seems too short to me for something that's supposed to deal with this sort of situation. It would also have to be unreachable except from outside the aircraft and should require that a part of the structure be dismantled in order to reach it; basically, anything that cannot be accessed or turned off from within the aircraft or (perhaps this is overkill) during flight (obviously the odds of someone doing an extravehicular excursion during flight is small, but if it's doable and not monstrously expensive, why not do it).
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I am no aviation expert but I think there should be some sort of GPS locator device that uniquely identifies each single aircraft that cannot be turned off from inside the aircraft required on all commercial aircraft. This device would be continuously powered up anytime there was even one engine running on the aircraft.
What about having a separate, dedicated power source that continues to broadcast after power-down, although it might be good to have a mechanism for the airline's management to turn the unit off upon a verified proper landing, so long as it automatically powers back on whenever one or more of the engines is powered up. A little complicated, perhaps, but allows having a battery backup without having the unit continue broadcasting after a proper landing.
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22 hours seems too short to me for something that's supposed to deal with this sort of situation. It would also have to be unreachable except from outside the aircraft and should require that a part of the structure be dismantled in order to reach it; basically, anything that cannot be accessed or turned off from within the aircraft or (perhaps this is overkill) during flight (obviously the odds of someone doing an extravehicular excursion during flight is small, but if it's doable and not monstrously expensive, why not do it).
Longest flight is 15 hours, maybe 16 if you have bad headwinds. You can't turn them off, they are snug in the unpressurized cargo hold. It is impossible to open the door at altitude. 12 lbs per square inch does not sound like much until you are pushing against it. You are pushing a small car if you try it.
Problem is, they cost.
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Longest flight is 15 hours, maybe 16 if you have bad headwinds. You can't turn them off, they are snug in the unpressurized cargo hold. It is impossible to open the door at altitude. 12 lbs per square inch does not sound like much until you are pushing against it. You are pushing a small car if you try it.
Problem is, they cost.
My thinking was to have the unit powered from the engines and/or any other ancillary generators on board, with a separate battery power source to run the unit for a period of time after the engines have shut down. Anything that makes it impossible to get to it while the plane is in flight. I have a nodding acquaintance with pressure - did a little time in undergrad in aeronautical engineering as well as civil engineering type classes in architecture. For a square foot, the pressure would be (12in)^2 * 12lb/sqin = 144 * 12lb = 1,728lb. For an opening that's 2ft wide by 4ft high, that's 8 * 1,728lb = 13,824lb, or almost 7 tons.
At this point, considering how many millions and millions of dollars have been spent to-date looking for the thing, plus the tens of millions more to be spent to complete the search and recovery, plus the lives lost, I don't think the cost of purchase and installation will be much of a stumbling block to a mandatory requirement.
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It exists. Has 22 hour battery life, constantly broadcasts in flight (including taxiing) Reports height, speed and position every 15 seconds.
Is not obligatory.
It should be obligatory and it also should be made to receive power from all running engines (with battery backup should an electrical failure occur) and should continue transmitting for as long as any engine on the aircraft is running.
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Longest flight is 15 hours, maybe 16 if you have bad headwinds. You can't turn them off, they are snug in the unpressurized cargo hold. It is impossible to open the door at altitude. 12 lbs per square inch does not sound like much until you are pushing against it. You are pushing a small car if you try it.
Problem is, they cost.
1. 12# PSI X 300 or so square inches = 3600 pounds of force required to overcome. Don't think there are many folks around who can do that!
2. Cost for this one system retaliative to the cost of the entire aircraft would, in my estimation, be minor.
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1. 12# PSI X 300 or so square inches = 3600 pounds of force required to overcome. Don't think there are many folks around who can do that!
2. Cost for this one system retaliative to the cost of the entire aircraft would, in my estimation, be minor.
True, brother. But then again, how often does a company ignore the bottom line for a few extra cents?
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The problem with mandating any kind of "permanent transponder" is that the FAA can only order it to be installed on US airlines. The Europeans would likely do the same (their version of the FAA generally has the same or even more stringent safety regulations) but they have no control over what other airlines do.
Also, it goes back to the whole bandwidth issue. There is not enough bandwidth (especially satellite) to cover all the aircraft flying to have each one sending all their operating information on a continual or near continual basis.
Even then, this would not stop a pilot from taking an aircraft off course or simply crashing it. If it happens, how do you stop the person? Shoot it down?
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We used to have one on most of the girls.
4 position switch. Uppermost, it would send your airframe number, airspeed, heading and a few other bits and pieces. First click down, off. No transponder at all. 3rd and 4th - well, AWACS are not just decorative.
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The problem with mandating any kind of "permanent transponder" is that the FAA can only order it to be installed on US airlines. The Europeans would likely do the same (their version of the FAA generally has the same or even more stringent safety regulations) but they have no control over what other airlines do.
Also, it goes back to the whole bandwidth issue. There is not enough bandwidth (especially satellite) to cover all the aircraft flying to have each one sending all their operating information on a continual or near continual basis.
Even then, this would not stop a pilot from taking an aircraft off course or simply crashing it. If it happens, how do you stop the person? Shoot it down?
Nothing is going to stop a determined effort to crash a plane but at least we wouldn't have to spend several days looking for the thing!
And BTW; I'm still having great difficulty with the idea that a modern 777 can crash anywhere without a single satellite receivable ELTB squawking location data! Just can't get my mind wrapped around that!
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Is there anything that could have happened that could have "intoxicated" the pilots, crew and passengers, along the lines of nitrogen narcosis?
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Is there anything that could have happened that could have "intoxicated" the pilots, crew and passengers, along the lines of nitrogen narcosis?
Not unless someone intentionally put something into the pressurization system. Even then, the air for the passengers is bled from the engines so it is not coming from tanks. You'd run out of agent fairly quickly as the air is circulated out. (Yes, I know the air is recirculated, but only some of it. The rest is expelled from the aircraft to prevent a build up of CO2.)
If something was burning on board (let's just say the already well discussed lithium batteries), it would have destroyed the aircraft long before fuel starvation.
Right now the most likely cause is a deliberate human act, either by the pilot(s) or a non-crew hijacker(s).
At this time, I think it was the captain. He hated the government of Malaysia and decided to cause them as much harm as he possibly could. Figuring that a suicide run with the aircraft would likely fail (it would get shot down before reaching its target or the passengers would realize what was going on and revolt) he decides to fly it as far away as possible so it will not be found, or if it is, it will take ages. (All he would have to do is tell the passengers they were stuck in a holding pattern due to something like weather or an emergency at the destination airport. Few if anyone on board might realize what was happening.) This would be a huge black eye for the Malaysian government. Remember, Malaysia Airlines is a flag carrier, wholly owned by the Malaysian government.
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The problem with mandating any kind of "permanent transponder" is that the FAA can only order it to be installed on US airlines. The Europeans would likely do the same (their version of the FAA generally has the same or even more stringent safety regulations) but they have no control over what other airlines do.
Also, it goes back to the whole bandwidth issue. There is not enough bandwidth (especially satellite) to cover all the aircraft flying to have each one sending all their operating information on a continual or near continual basis.
Even then, this would not stop a pilot from taking an aircraft off course or simply crashing it. If it happens, how do you stop the person? Shoot it down?
Even partial coverage, say of US aircraft, would be a step in the correct direction; the tranmissions wouldn't need to be continual or near continual - 15 minutes to half an hour with basic flight information - position, altitude, bearing, velocity - so bandwidth isn't so taxed, and the point isn't to stop someone from taking an aircraft and crashing it, the point is to make it much, much easier to locate that aircraft, even if it was just crashed.
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Not unless someone intentionally put something into the pressurization system. Even then, the air for the passengers is bled from the engines so it is not coming from tanks. You'd run out of agent fairly quickly as the air is circulated out. (Yes, I know the air is recirculated, but only some of it. The rest is expelled from the aircraft to prevent a build up of CO2.)
If something was burning on board (let's just say the already well discussed lithium batteries), it would have destroyed the aircraft long before fuel starvation.
Right now the most likely cause is a deliberate human act, either by the pilot(s) or a non-crew hijacker(s).
At this time, I think it was the captain. He hated the government of Malaysia and decided to cause them as much harm as he possibly could. Figuring that a suicide run with the aircraft would likely fail (it would get shot down before reaching its target or the passengers would realize what was going on and revolt) he decides to fly it as far away as possible so it will not be found, or if it is, it will take ages. (All he would have to do is tell the passengers they were stuck in a holding pattern due to something like weather or an emergency at the destination airport. Few if anyone on board might realize what was happening.) This would be a huge black eye for the Malaysian government. Remember, Malaysia Airlines is a flag carrier, wholly owned by the Malaysian government.
Not something from inside the plane but a failure of the skin of the plane? As the plane travels higher into the atmosphere, the oxygen decreases, nitrogen and smaller gases seep into the plane. The captain maintains some level of clarity and the plane's electronics/computers do the rest and brings it down to a "safer" level but the damage has already been done.
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Not unless someone intentionally put something into the pressurization system. Even then, the air for the passengers is bled from the engines so it is not coming from tanks. You'd run out of agent fairly quickly as the air is circulated out. (Yes, I know the air is recirculated, but only some of it. The rest is expelled from the aircraft to prevent a build up of CO2.)
If something was burning on board (let's just say the already well discussed lithium batteries), it would have destroyed the aircraft long before fuel starvation.
Right now the most likely cause is a deliberate human act, either by the pilot(s) or a non-crew hijacker(s).
At this time, I think it was the captain. He hated the government of Malaysia and decided to cause them as much harm as he possibly could. Figuring that a suicide run with the aircraft would likely fail (it would get shot down before reaching its target or the passengers would realize what was going on and revolt) he decides to fly it as far away as possible so it will not be found, or if it is, it will take ages. (All he would have to do is tell the passengers they were stuck in a holding pattern due to something like weather or an emergency at the destination airport. Few if anyone on board might realize what was happening.) This would be a huge black eye for the Malaysian government. Remember, Malaysia Airlines is a flag carrier, wholly owned by the Malaysian government.
That's why I insist this was an act of terrorism. Someone had to do too many things deliberately to put that plane where it probably is right now for this to be any sort of accident. I figure the passengers must have been mostly asleep until the plane was so far away from land there was no chance of a cell phone or sat phone call. If blowing up a bomb made from a pressure cooker is a terrorist attack, deliberately diverting an airliner full of people and flying it into the ocean is as well.
Muslim extremism and violence in the Indonesian archipelago has a very long history dating back to the mid 1800's, when Islam took off in a very big way in the entire area. Malaysian Islamic extremism has its own flavor, distinct from Al Qaeda in North Africa for example. I think it likely that both the pilot and co-pilot decided to commit their own act of terror, the "lone wolf" if you will, and managed to kill a significant number of people doing so. The Bali bombings took 202 lives and this act tops that number significantly.
Malaysia has a lot to answer for in the aftermath of this, and I think there is ample reason to not allow Malaysian airline pilots to fly in US airspace.
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Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane: What We Know Now
http://abcnews.go.com/International/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-now/story?id=23049543
Home> International
Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane: What We Know Now
March 25, 2014
By COLLEEN CURRY
Colleen Curry More from Colleen »
Colleen Curry
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PHOTO: A map showing the search area off the coast of Australia for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, March 22, 2014.
A map showing the search area off the coast of Australia for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, March 22, 2014.
ABC News
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The search for evidence of Malaysia Airlines flight #MH370 was suspended today because of rough weather, but the number of ships and planes heading to the area to hunt for the missing plane is growing.
The lack of concrete data about what happened to the plane and its 239 passengers has left their families - and the world - with more questions than answers.
Here's what we know now as of now about the investigation into missing flight MH370.
Check out ABC News' photos of the search for the flight here, too.
Satellite Data Shows When, Where Plane Went Down
The Malaysian government announced Monday that new data, analyzed in a groundbreaking way by British company Inmarsat, showed the flight ended in the south Indian Ocean, 1,500 miles off the coast of Perth, Australia.
The data also showed that the plane went down between 8:10 a.m. and 9:15 a.m. local time.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said Monday that there were likely no survivors of the flight, sending shock waves through the families of passengers who had gathered in Beijing to await word on the search for the plane. Many family members protested Malaysia's handling of the investigation and accused the government of lying and hiding the truth.
Search Focused on Alaska-Sized Area Off Australia
The search along a possible "northern corridor" has been called off. Search teams are now squarely focused on the area in the south Indian Ocean.
The current search area is some 469,407 square nautical miles, which is equal to 621,000
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Was it SUICIDE? Industry expert says pilot took Malaysian plane to 43,000ft and caused oxygen to run out
Suicide has become the most likely cause of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370's disappearance, with a senior industry source believing that the plane was deliberately flown to an extreme altitude to knock out the passengers.
Shortly after the last voice communication from the cockpit of the plane on March 8 it was tracked by military radar flying between 43,000 and 45,000 feet.
The source, who wished to remain anonymous, told MailOnline: 'It was tracked flying at this altitude for 23 minutes before descending. Oxygen would have run out in 12 minutes [in a depressurised cabin], rendering the passengers unconscious.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588109/How-got-After-Malaysia-Airlines-jet-said-crashed-Indian-Ocean-look-ended-far-course.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588109/How-got-After-Malaysia-Airlines-jet-said-crashed-Indian-Ocean-look-ended-far-course.html)
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SUICIDE!!??
Sounds more like mass murder.
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How much you wanna bet we almost never hear about the religion of this pilot who "killed himself" in this "suicide?" What a joke.
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SUICIDE!!??
Sounds more like mass murder.
yep!
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'A shot in the dark': How a UK firm and a team of scientists used a nineteenth century mathematical model to track missing flight MH370 - and confirmed the worst fears of the families of all passengers and crew
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588508/A-shot-dark-How-UK-firm-team-scientists-tracked-missing-flight-MH370-confirmed-worst-fears-families-passengers-crew.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588508/A-shot-dark-How-UK-firm-team-scientists-tracked-missing-flight-MH370-confirmed-worst-fears-families-passengers-crew.html)
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'A shot in the dark': How a UK firm and a team of scientists used a nineteenth century mathematical model to track missing flight MH370 - and confirmed the worst fears of the families of all passengers and crew
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588508/A-shot-dark-How-UK-firm-team-scientists-tracked-missing-flight-MH370-confirmed-worst-fears-families-passengers-crew.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588508/A-shot-dark-How-UK-firm-team-scientists-tracked-missing-flight-MH370-confirmed-worst-fears-families-passengers-crew.html)
essentially, the analysts were able to obtain data about the incoming signals that included doppler shift - the thing that makes an ambulance siren get high pitched as it approaches you, and lower pitched as it goes away from you.
That's pretty good; however, I'm interested in the fact that the records on the signals included the info necessary to detect the doppler shift; that would have required data showing the precise frequency of the received signal, because the doppler effect largely shows up in the frequency.
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That's pretty good; however, I'm interested in the fact that the records on the signals included the info necessary to detect the doppler shift; that would have required data showing the precise frequency of the received signal, because the doppler effect largely shows up in the frequency.
I don't know much about civil aviation stuff, so grab a healthy pinch of salt with this.
IFF beacons - or transponders, if you will - are fixed frequency. You can't change it, they are set in the factory. You do have multiple codes, and ATC will normally ask you to set your transponder to a specific one when you go into their area, which relates to a specific frequency pairing. Ground asks, the transponder answers. Saves on battery life, rather than transmitting constantly.
Most ground based systems use the doppler shift to work out ground speed, since secondary radar is not that reliable and primary is pretty much useless at 50 miles out. No one trusts air speed indicators - they can block, frost up, or some bleep can forget to uncap them before you take off.
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I don't know much about civil aviation stuff, so grab a healthy pinch of salt with this.
IFF beacons - or transponders, if you will - are fixed frequency. You can't change it, they are set in the factory. You do have multiple codes, and ATC will normally ask you to set your transponder to a specific one when you go into their area, which relates to a specific frequency pairing. Ground asks, the transponder answers. Saves on battery life, rather than transmitting constantly.
Most ground based systems use the doppler shift to work out ground speed, since secondary radar is not that reliable and primary is pretty much useless at 50 miles out. No one trusts air speed indicators - they can block, frost up, or some bleep can forget to uncap them before you take off.
The frequency shift would be detectable at the time the signal is received - obviously - but what I'm thinking of is that the logged data recorded maintained all of that info, including the precise frequency of the "ping" signal, not just a record of the fact it was received and the data it transmitted.
Of course, since the signals were received by satellites, the analysis becomes a real b*tch since one has to work out what part of the doppler shift is due to the satellite's motion and what to the aircraft's motion, and then you have to work it out as a set of vectors, not just a set of scalar numbers.
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It is a technically very impressive feat. Hats off to them for that - always liked engineers. They hate puzzles! :laugh:
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The frequency shift would be detectable at the time the signal is received - obviously - but what I'm thinking of is that the logged data recorded maintained all of that info, including the precise frequency of the "ping" signal, not just a record of the fact it was received and the data it transmitted.
Of course, since the signals were received by satellites, the analysis becomes a real b*tch since one has to work out what part of the doppler shift is due to the satellite's motion and what to the aircraft's motion, and then you have to work it out as a set of vectors, not just a set of scalar numbers.
Here is a much more detailed explanation of the process used.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/24/flight-mh370-inmarsat-aaib-analysis
The ONLY way this was possible for them to do is the FACT that the satellite is motionless in relation to the earth's surface. (It remains over the EXACT same spot on the earth's surface all of the time.)
If the signals had been received by even one more satellite the process would have been GREATLY simplified.
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I don't know much about civil aviation stuff, so grab a healthy pinch of salt with this.
IFF beacons - or transponders, if you will - are fixed frequency. You can't change it, they are set in the factory. You do have multiple codes, and ATC will normally ask you to set your transponder to a specific one when you go into their area, which relates to a specific frequency pairing. Ground asks, the transponder answers. Saves on battery life, rather than transmitting constantly.
Most ground based systems use the doppler shift to work out ground speed, since secondary radar is not that reliable and primary is pretty much useless at 50 miles out. No one trusts air speed indicators - they can block, frost up, or some bleep can forget to uncap them before you take off.
This has much more to do with their ability to measure time very precisely than the frequency of the received signal.
If the plane had moved closer to the satellite since the previous signal was received the time it took for the signal to travel to the satellite would be a tiny bit less that the time the previous signal took to make the trip. If it had moved further away, just the opposite would be true. This is how telemetry measurements are taken in the space program and exactly how ranging works in radar systems.
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/air-accidents/news/article.cfm?c_id=665&objectid=11226334 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/air-accidents/news/article.cfm?c_id=665&objectid=11226334)
Flight MH370: Pilot in wrong state of mind to fly - friend
By Lincoln Tan
11:10 AM Wednesday Mar 26, 2014
Captain facing family and relationship problems before plane disappeared.
(http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201413/SCCZEN_AG_170314SPLSHAH4_620x310.jpg)
Zaharie Ahmad Shah, his wife Faiza Khanum Mustafa Khan and their daughter, seen here in a Facebook photo from July 2013.
The captain of Flight 370 was in no state of mind to fly the day it disappeared and could have taken the Boeing 777 for a "last joyride" before crashing into the Indian Ocean, a fellow pilot says.
Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah's world was crumbling, said the long-time associate. He had been facing serious family problems, including separation from his wife and relationship problems with another woman he was seeing.
The man, who spoke to the Herald on condition of anonymity, said Captain Zaharie was "terribly upset" when his wife told him she was leaving and believed he may have decided to take the Malaysia Airlines plane to a part of the world he had never flown in.
continued
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/air-accidents/news/article.cfm?c_id=665&objectid=11226334 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/air-accidents/news/article.cfm?c_id=665&objectid=11226334)
Flight MH370: Pilot in wrong state of mind to fly - friend
By Lincoln Tan
11:10 AM Wednesday Mar 26, 2014
Captain facing family and relationship problems before plane disappeared.
(http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201413/SCCZEN_AG_170314SPLSHAH4_620x310.jpg)
Zaharie Ahmad Shah, his wife Faiza Khanum Mustafa Khan and their daughter, seen here in a Facebook photo from July 2013.
The captain of Flight 370 was in no state of mind to fly the day it disappeared and could have taken the Boeing 777 for a "last joyride" before crashing into the Indian Ocean, a fellow pilot says.
Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah's world was crumbling, said the long-time associate. He had been facing serious family problems, including separation from his wife and relationship problems with another woman he was seeing.
The man, who spoke to the Herald on condition of anonymity, said Captain Zaharie was "terribly upset" when his wife told him she was leaving and believed he may have decided to take the Malaysia Airlines plane to a part of the world he had never flown in.
continued
Blame the pilot. Misdirection 101.
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Right now, if the mole people crashed a prime time CNN broadcast and apologized for accidentally taking the plane because they thought Kim Kardashian was on board and wanted to see our advances in robotics, I would not be the slightest bit surprised.
Too many things don't add up.
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Right now, if the mole people crashed a prime time CNN broadcast and apologized for accidentally taking the plane because they thought Kim Kardashian was on board and wanted to see our advances in robotics, I would not be the slightest bit surprised.
Too many things don't add up.
that i'd love to see, even if just for the entertainment value!
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Right now, if the mole people crashed a prime time CNN broadcast and apologized for accidentally taking the plane because they thought Kim Kardashian was on board and wanted to see our advances in robotics, I would not be the slightest bit surprised.
Too many things don't add up.
It's when they start reversing the laws of physics to explain things that I am glad i have no more hair to tear out. Black holes, a reversal of the space/time continuum, etc. They don't even pretend to be journalists anymore. They're marketers feeding the carefully nurtured psyches of their target markets.
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Wife has just got back from Philly, and understandably, the missing flight was a massive topic of conversation between her colleagues, the flight deck, and several nervous passengers.
Nothing about it makes sense, at all.
Rising to 45,000 feet is possible. Pilots swap off about an hour into the flight, right on the time frame we are looking at. Captain or co-pilot, whoever takes the controls, first checks and enters course, altitude, etc into the autopilot. Since cruising altitude is usually 35,000 feet, it's theoretically possible for someone to punch in 45,000 feet by mistake. Only one number off, and the keypad is not all that big. Entry is supposed to be cross checked, but if the captain handed off to the far less experienced co-pilot and went for a piss, it is conceivable that the cross check didn't happen. Standard climb rate on autopilot is 800 feet per minute, so it would be slow and gradual. So far - it could be pilot error. The last known communication from the plane could be used as evidence for this - a 777 is not going to keep viable oxygen pressure above 40,000 feet and the last words - Goodnight - are the sort of thing someone suffering from hypoxia would say. You simply fall asleep.
Except,the 777 is designed to be pretty much bullet proof and idiot proof, for exactly that reason. Cabin pressure drops, you get a siren screaming at you in the cockpit AND over the PA system, the stick shakes (same as the stall warning), the autopilot disengages, and oxygen is automatically deployed while the cabin lights strobe on and off. None of those can be switched off. Even the dopiest pilot is going to notice that.
Further, transponders run as long as there is power to them. They simply can not be turned off by any action of any member of crew or any passenger. You physically can not get to them - they are in the unpressurized hold. They work on the challenge/response system, usually every 15 minutes if you are not in crowded airspace. Normally it's basic stuff sent - challenge is "hey, 331, you still there?" Response is "Yep. 36,000 feet, heading whatever, air speed 500." Again, totally automatic and it can not be affected by anything other than a catastrophic power failure of both the gennies and the back up batteries. The only real way to make a plane "disappear" is if someone on the ground changes the challenge frequency. They are pretty idiot proof, but they only hear what they are told to hear. A nice analogy the Captain used is imagine it's a phone system. You grab the phone, punch in a number and the person you want to talk to answers (or you get voice mail). Punch numbers in at random and you will not get the person you mean to talk to.
Then there is the whole course change thing. You don't turn a plane on a dime. If it is on autopilot, the full weight of an unconscious person on the stick or the rudder pedals will do exactly nothing except irritate the machinery that has to keep ignoring the input.
ATC also has it's input. While they might not be the sweating, swearing types from the Airport movies, they do tend to notice if they have lost a plane. That is their job, and they are double checked, as everything to do with flying is. It is very formal. When you change control zones, you are formally handed off from one to the next - and the first thing you do is confirm your transponder code to the new ATC center and reset it to whatever code they request (only so many numbers available, someone else might be on the same frequency).
This adds little to the discussion, but I thought you might find it interesting. The missus has a good memory and they were talking about it over a coffee. Think I got it all - she talks fast and usually not in English!
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Satellite spots 122 possible objects in search
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1700974/thumbs/a-MALAYSIA-AIRLINES-640x420.jpg)
This graphic released by the Malaysian Remote Sensing Agency on Wednesday March 26, 2014, shows satellite imagery taken on
March 23, 2014, with the approximate positions of objects seen floating in the southern Indian Ocean in the search zone for the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. Malaysian Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a news conference in Kuala Lumpur Wednesday that a satellite has captured images of 122 objects close to where three other satellites previously detected objects. (AP Photo/Malaysian Remote Sensing Agency)
By TODD PITMAN and ROB GRIFFITH
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) -- A French satellite scanning the Indian Ocean for remnants of a missing jetliner found a possible plane debris field containing 122 objects, a top Malaysian official said Wednesday, calling it "the most credible lead that we have."
Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein also expressed exasperation with the anger rising among missing passengers' relatives in China, who berated Malaysian government and airline officials earlier in the day in Beijing. About two-thirds of the missing are Chinese, but Hishammuddin pointedly said that Chinese families "must also understand that we in Malaysia also lost our loved ones" as did "so many other nations."
Nineteen days into the search for Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, the latest satellite images are the first to suggest that a debris field from the plane - rather than just a few objects - may be floating in the southern Indian Ocean, though no wreckage has been confirmed. Previously, an Australian satellite detected two large objects and a Chinese satellite detected one.
All three finds were made in roughly the same area, far southwest of Australia, where a desperate, multinational hunt has been going on for days.
Clouds obscured the latest satellite images, but dozens of objects could be seen in the gaps, ranging in length from one meter (3 feet) to 23 meters (76 feet). At a news conference in Kuala Lumpur, Hishammuddin said some of them "appeared to be bright, possibly indicating solid materials."
The images were taken Sunday and relayed by French-based Airbus Defence and Space, a division of Europe's Airbus Group; its businesses include the operation of satellites and satellite communications. The company said in a statement that it has mobilized five observation satellites, including two that can produce very high resolution images, to help locate the plane.
Various floating objects have been spotted in the area by planes over the last week, including on Wednesday, when the Australian Maritime Safety Authority said three more objects were seen. The authority said two objects seen from a civil aircraft appeared to be rope, and that a New Zealand military plane spotted a blue object.
None of the objects were seen on a second pass, a frustration that has been repeated several times in the hunt for Flight 370, missing since March 8 with 239 people aboard.
Australian officials did not say whether they received the French imagery in time for search planes out at sea to look for the possible debris field, and did not return repeated phone messages seeking further comment.
It remains uncertain whether any of the objects seen came from the plane; they could have come from a cargo ship or something else.
The search resumed Wednesday after fierce winds and high waves forced crews to take a break Tuesday. A total of 12 planes and five ships from the United States, China, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand were participating in the search, hoping to find even a single piece of the jet that could offer tangible evidence of a crash and provide clues to find the rest of the wreckage.
Malaysia announced Monday that a mathematical analysis of the final known satellite signals from the plane showed that it had crashed in the sea, killing everyone on board.
The new data greatly reduced the search zone, but it remains huge - an area estimated at 1.6 million square kilometers (622,000 square miles), about the size of Alaska.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/26/satellite-spots-122-possible-objects-in-search/20856926/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/26/satellite-spots-122-possible-objects-in-search/20856926/)
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Wife has just got back from Philly, and understandably, the missing flight was a massive topic of conversation between her colleagues, the flight deck, and several nervous passengers.
Nothing about it makes sense, at all.
Rising to 45,000 feet is possible. Pilots swap off about an hour into the flight, right on the time frame we are looking at. Captain or co-pilot, whoever takes the controls, first checks and enters course, altitude, etc into the autopilot. Since cruising altitude is usually 35,000 feet, it's theoretically possible for someone to punch in 45,000 feet by mistake. Only one number off, and the keypad is not all that big. Entry is supposed to be cross checked, but if the captain handed off to the far less experienced co-pilot and went for a piss, it is conceivable that the cross check didn't happen. Standard climb rate on autopilot is 800 feet per minute, so it would be slow and gradual. So far - it could be pilot error. The last known communication from the plane could be used as evidence for this - a 777 is not going to keep viable oxygen pressure above 40,000 feet and the last words - Goodnight - are the sort of thing someone suffering from hypoxia would say. You simply fall asleep.
Except,the 777 is designed to be pretty much bullet proof and idiot proof, for exactly that reason. Cabin pressure drops, you get a siren screaming at you in the cockpit AND over the PA system, the stick shakes (same as the stall warning), the autopilot disengages, and oxygen is automatically deployed while the cabin lights strobe on and off. None of those can be switched off. Even the dopiest pilot is going to notice that.
Further, transponders run as long as there is power to them. They simply can not be turned off by any action of any member of crew or any passenger. You physically can not get to them - they are in the unpressurized hold. They work on the challenge/response system, usually every 15 minutes if you are not in crowded airspace. Normally it's basic stuff sent - challenge is "hey, 331, you still there?" Response is "Yep. 36,000 feet, heading whatever, air speed 500." Again, totally automatic and it can not be affected by anything other than a catastrophic power failure of both the gennies and the back up batteries. The only real way to make a plane "disappear" is if someone on the ground changes the challenge frequency. They are pretty idiot proof, but they only hear what they are told to hear. A nice analogy the Captain used is imagine it's a phone system. You grab the phone, punch in a number and the person you want to talk to answers (or you get voice mail). Punch numbers in at random and you will not get the person you mean to talk to.
Then there is the whole course change thing. You don't turn a plane on a dime. If it is on autopilot, the full weight of an unconscious person on the stick or the rudder pedals will do exactly nothing except irritate the machinery that has to keep ignoring the input.
ATC also has it's input. While they might not be the sweating, swearing types from the Airport movies, they do tend to notice if they have lost a plane. That is their job, and they are double checked, as everything to do with flying is. It is very formal. When you change control zones, you are formally handed off from one to the next - and the first thing you do is confirm your transponder code to the new ATC center and reset it to whatever code they request (only so many numbers available, someone else might be on the same frequency).
This adds little to the discussion, but I thought you might find it interesting. The missus has a good memory and they were talking about it over a coffee. Think I got it all - she talks fast and usually not in English!
EC, it never ceases to amaze me the variety of stuff you manage to come up with.
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Malaysia Airlines missing plane gave off unexplained final 'ping'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10722842/Malaysia-Airlines-missing-plane-gave-off-unexplained-final-ping.html
The crashed Malaysia Airlines flight gave one last unexplained signal eight minutes after its final “ping”, possibly the result of the plane entering its “catastrophic phase” as it plunged into the Indian Ocean, investigators have said.
As families of its 239 passengers demanded “proof” of the plane’s demise, Malaysian authorities presented analysis by Inmarsat, the British telecommunications company, of satellite data to explain its conclusion that the plane crashed into remote waters 18 days ago and left no survivors.
No confirmed wreckage from the plane has been found during a multinational air and sea search in waters about 1,500 miles south-west of Perth, Western Australia. The search was temporarily called off on Tuesday due to adverse weather.
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EC, it never ceases to amaze me the variety of stuff you manage to come up with.
I had forgotten his wife is a flight attendent, or was that someone else?
I was already nervous about flying. Now I would not get on a plane.
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I had forgotten his wife is a flight attendent, or was that someone else?
I was already nervous about flying. Now I would not get on a plane.
She's been one since '97. Loves it (except for the jetlag.) Figure she especially loves getting away from the horde for a few days, but she's always been one for seeing what she can see! And yes, she has 38 hours in a small craft and is taking time to learn the big ones. She's got 12 hours on the 747 simulator so far! Kind of jealous.
Dad is an aerospace engineer and was originally an RAF armorer responsible for ejector seats. If you are flying and successfully stop on landing, you owe him, he designed the RB 211 thrust reverser. He likes payment in beer.
I just fly the damned things, which is amusing in it's own right. Can fly a fixed wing, just don't expect much left on landing. Most will come out breathing - you can tell they are alive, they scream and run. Flames are optional.
A cousin flies C130's with the CAF, though he's retiring soon. He's pretty deaf now - they ain't quiet.
Another cousin crop dusts.
My aunt (the mother of the CAF pilot, she married a Canadian during the war) - she shuttled fighters (Hurricanes and Spitfires both) during the war. Has two confirmed kills to her credit.
Eldest grand daughter - she took over the hang glider and handles it like a pro. She competes now and loves every minute of it. We don't, watching her, she looks awfully small up there on her own.
Son in law is a base jumper (AKA idiot, in my book. You have to be an idiot to jump off a building.)
Another cousin flies F16's with the IAF. You should hear him swear at the name. He flies the C variant - code named Barak. It is not considered amusing right now.
Most of our family fly, in one way or another. It gets in the blood. Kind of addictive.
Why be nervous though? The chances of you crashing are minute. The chances of you surviving a crash are even smaller. Nothing to worry about ..... :shrug: :whistle:
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Malaysia Airlines missing plane gave off unexplained final 'ping'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10722842/Malaysia-Airlines-missing-plane-gave-off-unexplained-final-ping.html
what was that last, unexplained, signal?
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what was that last, unexplained, signal?
here's what the article says further on down:
“There is evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 00:19 GMT,” said Hishammuddin Hussein, the acting transport minister. “This transmission is not understood and is subject to further ongoing work.”
Thomas Withington, a defence electronics analyst, told The Telegraph: “It sounds like the aircraft began to squawk a message and for some reason this was curtailed. It could be because the aircraft was at a catastrophic phase of its flight — that something was causing it to crash — or there could be some atmospheric disturbance.
“Was a crew member trying to send a message? Was the aircraft trying to send a message? Was there a malfunction? Those questions can only be answered if the cockpit voice recorders and flight data recorder are recovered.”
which leads me to wonder, is there some other warning system on aircraft that is supposed to emit a signal only upon the occurence of a "catastrophic event"?
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Only ones I know of are the screamer beacons. Attached to the evac slides, automatically triggered by either a deliberate inflation or contact with salt water.
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what was that last, unexplained, signal?
It was the static generated by a Higgs Boson collapsing, taking the aircraft and everyone on it on a one way trip to a "discrete radio source" that was first located in 1967, somewhere on the other side of Andromeda. The Boson was generated by a secret facility in the Borneo jungle, funded by the Koch Brothers, the Cheney Family Trust and Karl Rove and Associates. I understand Donald Rumsfeld himself has been personally in charge of the facility that generated the Boson and likely personally pushed the button that sent these people on the vacation of their lives.
Since Andromeda is only 2.54 ± 0.11 Million Light Years away, none of us will have anything physical remaining here, by the time they get there, so unfortunately, none of them will be phoning home, nor will any of us be around to receive the call if they did.
But not to worry, they will all come home in a few billion years when Andromeda begins to collide with the Milky Way.....
:whistle:
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It was the static generated by a Higgs Boson collapsing, taking the aircraft and everyone on it on a one way trip to a "discrete radio source" that was first located in 1967, somewhere on the other side of Andromeda. The Boson was generated by a secret facility in the Borneo jungle, funded by the Koch Brothers, the Cheney Family Trust and Karl Rove and Associates. I understand Donald Rumsfeld himself has been personally in charge of the facility that generated the Boson and likely personally pushed the button that sent these people on the vacation of their lives.
Since Andromeda is only 2.54 ± 0.11 Million Light Years away, none of us will have anything physical remaining here, by the time they get there, so unfortunately, none of them will be phoning home, nor will any of us be around to receive the call if they did.
But not to worry, they will all come home in a few billion years when Andromeda begins to collide with the Milky Way.....
:whistle:
I really do prefer your explanations to anyone else's!!
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Only ones I know of are the screamer beacons. Attached to the evac slides, automatically triggered by either a deliberate inflation or contact with salt water.
the emergency locator beacons only operate on either 121.5MHz (the old ones that are no longer supported for aviation) and 406MHz. ACARS doesn't, to my limited understanding, utilize either frequency, so whatever this last signal was that the satellite picked up, it wouldn't have been from an emergency locator beacon.
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I really do prefer your explanations to anyone else's!!
Thanks! Mine are at least as good as anything I've heard from CNN......
:beer:
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Thanks! Mine are at least as good as anything I've heard from CNN......
:beer:
Yours are qualitatively better than anything CNN can dream up!
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Son of Malaysian Airlines captain breaks silence about father
http://news.yahoo.com/son-of-malaysian-airlines-pilot-breaks-silence-133946108.html
Ahmad Seth, the 26-year-old son of Malaysian Airlines flight 370 Capt. Zaharie Ahmad Shah, broke his family's silence about the speculation concerning his father.
Seth told New Straits Times that his father is not a "political fanatic." He said, "I've read everything online, but I've ignored all the speculation. I know my father better."
“We may not be as close as he travels so much, but I understand him,” he told New Straits Times.
Like many others, Seth is still hoping that there will be survivors from the ill-fated flight. Earlier this week, the Malaysian government concluded that the 239 people aboard the flight had died.
“Now, we are just waiting for the right confirmation,” Seth said. “I will believe it when I see the proof in front of my eyes.”
Seth did not address how his mother and siblings were doing but did say that he is "the strongest in his family in dealing with the crisis," according to New Straits Times.
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take it for what it's worth, this site claims much of what we think is incorrect (such as the 45K foot ascent).
“Alright, Goodnight” – Does Malaysia Want To Know What Happened To Flight MH-370?
....Conspiracy theories don’t hold water because they ignore certain things that have to happen in conjunction with those events in order for them to be correct. What all the theories about the disappearance of this plane leave out are the important aircraft systems that would react (or try to) in any mishap involving the plane. Here are a few.
The Cabin Emergency Depressurization Oxygen System. The “Rubber Mask Jungle” drops if the cabin pressure drops below a certain level – typically at 14,000 feet. The pilots can deploy the system manually or leave it set on automatic. But the pilots cannot turn it off....
Read more: http://sofrep.com/34084/alright-goodnight-malaysia-want-know-happened-flight-mh-370/#ixzz2xD2L08AV
Very long article
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I'm sticking with the Higgs Boson....
:beer:
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Seems they've been honing their calculations of the plane's travels and are adjusting the search area a bit:
Search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 shifts to new area west of Perth (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/search-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-shifts-to-new-area-west-of-perth/story-fnizu68q-1226867105992)
March 28, 2014 1:01PM
The search area for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 has been shifted after a new credible lead was provided to the Australian Maritime Safety Authority.
As a result today’s search will shift to an area 1,100 kilometres to the north east based on updated advice provided by the international investigation team in Malaysia.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), Australia’s investigation agency, has examined this advice and determined that this is the most credible lead to where debris may be located.
The new search area is approximately 319,000 square kilometres and around 1,850 kilometres west of Perth.
The new information is based on continuing analysis of radar data between the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca before radar contact was lost.
It indicated that the aircraft was travelling faster than previously estimated, resulting in increased fuel usage and reducing the possible distance the aircraft travelled south into the Indian Ocean.
ATSB advises the potential flight path may be the subject of further refinement as the international investigative team supporting the search continues their analysis.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott said he has been briefed about the new radar data analysis of the flight path.
“This is a credible new lead and will be thoroughly investigated today,” Mr Abbott said.
* * *
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Seems they've been honing their calculations of the plane's travels and are adjusting the search area a bit:
Search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 shifts to new area west of Perth (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/search-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-shifts-to-new-area-west-of-perth/story-fnizu68q-1226867105992)
Well that's what happens when the first string gets into the game.
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Objects spotted in new missing jet search area
The first images are emerging of what search planes observed Friday -- some 21 days after Flight MH370 vanished without a trace.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1705850/thumbs/a-MALAYSIA-AIRLINES-640x420.jpg)
New Malaysia plane search area turns up objects
Mar 28th 2014 9:49AM
INDIAN OCEAN - This handout Satellite image made available by the AMSA (Australian Maritime Safety Authority) shows a map of the new search area in the Indian Ocean for missing Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 on March 28, 2014. The revised search area, 680 miles to the north of previous searches, comes after a new radar analysis suggests the jetliner may have run out of fuel sooner than first believed.
By ROB GRIFFITH and GILLIAN WONG
PERTH, Australia (AP) -- Australian officials moved the search area for the lost Malaysian jetliner 1,100 kilometers (680 miles) to the northeast Friday following a new analysis of radar data, and planes quickly found multiple objects in the new zone.
Five out of 10 aircraft hunting for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 found objects of various colors Friday, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority said. It said it was not clear whether the objects were from the plane, and photos of them would be analyzed overnight.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/28/new-malaysia-plane-search-area-turns-up-objects/20858649/ (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/03/28/new-malaysia-plane-search-area-turns-up-objects/20858649/)
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apparently they only have about 5 more days or so to find the black boxes before they stop pinging.
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That square object in the water turned out to be a "suicide" note from the pilot saying he wanted to end it all and his actions had nothing to do with jihad or terrorism.
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:laugh: sounds about right.
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Not the best time for British Airways to run this ad..
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjxVCHHIcAAIK5i.jpg)
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Not the best time for British Airways to run this ad..
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjxVCHHIcAAIK5i.jpg)
Seriously?!?
:bigsilly:
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In case EC's wife works for this airline. I didn't create it. ^-^
https://twitter.com/autocorrects/status/449327557742448640/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/autocorrects/status/449327557742448640/photo/1)
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That square object in the water turned out to be a "suicide" note from the pilot saying he wanted to end it all and his actions had nothing to do with jihad or terrorism.
Or my son's homework.
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MH370: New account of cockpit last words
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26825184
The last words spoken were "Good night Malaysian three seven zero" - and not "all right, good night" as reported.
The transport ministry said forensic investigations would determine whether the pilot or co-pilot spoke the words.
The plane, carrying 239 people, was travelling from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing when it disappeared on 8 March.
The plane's last contact took place at 01:19 Malaysian time.
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We're never going to know what happened, or it's going to be a very long time until we do. It seems to me that they are re-directing our focus from a hijacked plane to a crashed plane. If this had been an American plane, the first piece of news that would have come out would have been, "We don't know what caused it, but we have ruled out terrorism."
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"..but we have ruled out terrorism."
Absolutely, and Al Qaeda is still on the run.
Obama and all his conspirators have everything under control.
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Have they even looked in the area where they lost contact with the plane right after it turned?
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Have they even looked in the area where they lost contact with the plane right after it turned?
Based on floating garbage they have turned the whole operation to focus on the southern route it could have taken and completely ruled out the northern route or if it continued west or doubled back again. This whole search has been mishandled from the beginning and we keep searching in the wrong area. My question is, is it by design?
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My question is, is it by design?
I'm never too quick to rule out total incompetence. Initial search mistakes could be faulty information, but this is now getting ridiculous.
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Have they even looked in the area where they lost contact with the plane right after it turned?
Yes, for more than a week and they found nothing.
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Higgs
Boson
:beer:
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Yes, for more than a week and they found nothing.
Well that’s not exactly true. They did find floating on the water a bag of 2012 election ballots mostly marked for Romney, A Kenyan birth certificate - but the ink has run too much to tell who it was for, and my sons homework.
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Well that’s not exactly true. They did find floating on the water a bag of 2008 election ballots mostly marked for Romney, A Kenyan birth certificate - but the ink has run too much to tell who it was for, and my sons homework.
I believe there were also some hard copies of Eric Holder e-mails dealing with Fast and Furious.
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I believe there were also some hard copies of Eric Holder e-mails dealing with Fast and Furious.
Romney ran in 2008 as well?
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Romney ran in 2008 as well?
Heh. That slipped by me.
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Romney ran in 2008 as well?
That was an April Fools joke on you, honest. I meant 2012.
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Source: Aviation Week
shows. The trouble with talking heads is that short sound bites don’t really allow us to take a deep dive into the issues.
We arranged to have an extended interview with Greg Feith, a former investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board and today a consultant for private industry and another of the talking heads. Feith investigated two accidents that may have particular relevance to MH370: the pilot-suicide crashes of Egyptair 990 and a Silk Air 737 in Indonesia. He’s familiar with the national cultures involved and events leading to conclusions of these two previous incidents. Feith early in the MH370 events concluded this incident has its roots in the cockpit of the Boeing 777.
He’s appeared throughout the MH370 search on CNN and NBC, among other places. Here is our interview with Feith.
A former lead crash investigator for the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) doesn’t believe the wreckage of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 will ever be found—and with it, the data recorded on the black boxes will be lost to the investigation.
“I hope I am wrong but I personally don’t believe we will ever find the wreckage. I think we will find pieces that drifted,” Greg Feith, the investigator, said in an exclusive interview with Leeham News and Comment.
“I don’t believe the information that’s available right now, as I know it and has been publicized, will be enough to come up with a single cause or probable cause,” he said in an interview March 31.
Feith believes there will be several plausible theories that all will point to a deliberate act by someone with intimate knowledge of flying the Boeing 777, most likely one of the pilots. Too many deliberate actions maneuvering the airplane and turning off communications systems occurred to have any plausible mechanical failure explanation. He completely discounts theories that a fire, either in the electronics bay or involving lithium-ion batteries being transported in a cargo bay, disabled the airplane. He also discounts a theory that there was a depressurization that incapacitated the pilots and allowed the 777 to meander over the skies of the Gulf of Thailand, Malaysia and the Strait of Malacca before turning south 3,000 miles over the Indian Ocean before running out of fuel.
“When you look at the way the systems shut down just prior to the last communications—the transponder, then ACARS…” and the fact that ACARS had “pinging” communication with satellites after the transmission of data stopped, tells this veteran investigator that human intervention was responsible.
Some hypothesized that the airplane flew on auto pilot on its diverse flight path after pilots were disabled by fire. Feith discounted this as well.
“The transponder is turned off with a switch of a switch. ACARS goes off line with a few key strokes,” Feith told us. “If there was a fire, the auto pilot would have gone off line.”
Fire could not have disabled the transponder, he said. There are different wire bundles for the five radios, the two transponders and the ACARS precisely to avoid a single-source fire capable of disrupting these eight communications devices.
“There is no centralized area where a fire could take all these out at the same time,” he said.
As for the related theory that the auto pilot took over after the crew was disabled by hypoxia, the series of left and right hand turns belies this, he said. If the crew were overcome, the airplane would have continued on its original course to Beijing. Instead, it made a “shallow” left turn after its last radio communication with Malaysian Air Traffic Control to a new course almost behind its original course. Then, over the Strait of Malacca, it made a right turn, a left turn and another left turn going south over the Indian Ocean.
Citing his sources familiar with the investigation, Feith said these were shallow banks of perhaps 20 degrees, normal turns that would not have alerted passengers that anything was out of the ordinary.
“The auto pilot isn’t smart enough [on its own] to make the maneuvers the airplane did,” Feith said.
All the altitude changes that have been reported in the media are incorrect, he said, citing his sources. The airplane never left its cruising altitude of 35,000 ft.
Feith believes that all the turns were part of a deception plan by whoever was in control of the airplane. He doubts this person was a hijacker, who wouldn’t have the knowledge or the skill level of all the systems of the 777, nor a hijacker holding a gun to the head of the pilots.
If a hijacker intruded into the cockpit and commanded the pilots to shut down communications, a savvy pilot would have surreptitiously found a way to alert authorities, Feith said. When switching off the transponder, the pilot could have easily switched to 7700 (an Emergency code) or 7500 (hijacking), or easily depressed the radio button on the control wheel to transmit in the blind. “None of this happened.”
A fire of any kind in the electronics bay or the cargo hold where the lithium-ion batteries were stored is improbable, he said. The 777 has ample smoke and fire detectors to alert the crew, which then would have radioed an emergency and a return to Kuala Lumpur, where fire equipment is prepared for these emergencies. “None of this happened.”
http://leehamnews.com/2014/03/31/mh370-wreckage-probable-cause-may-never-be-found-says-ex-ntsb-investigator/
Greg Feith is one of the most respected air accident/crash investigators in the world. I would trust his analysis beyond anyone else's.
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Ambulance chasing lawyers are going to keep pushing the fire theory. You can make more money out of suing Boeing than an airline barely making a profit who employed a suicidal pilot.
As for the location of the plane, I still think that because of questionable satellite photos, and floating garbage not associated with the plane important resources were diverted hundreds if not thousands of miles away from the actual crash site wasting valuable time.
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Scuttlebutt on the various aviation sites is that they have found at least one of the 777's data recorders.
There should be a regularly scheduled press conference in an hour or two IIRC.
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AUSTRALIA (CNN/SEVEN NETWORK (http://fox44.com/news/around-world/australian-company-claims-it-found-flight-370)) — A private Australian company says it has found what it believes is wreckage of a plane in the ocean.
But leaders of the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 are dismissing the claim.
"This is probably the most difficult search in human history," said Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott. He also admitted the chance of finding debris on the ocean surface is slim to none.
He says efforts will now focus on the ocean floor.
But Adelaide-based exploration company, GeoResonance, believes authorities have been looking in the wrong place.
It started its own search for the missing aircraft on March 10.
"The technology we use was originally designed to find nuclear warheads, submarines. Our team in the ukraine decided we should try and help," said David Pope of GeoResonance.
The company surveyed over 2 million square kilometers of the possible crash zone, using images obtained from satellites and aircraft.
Scientists focused their efforts north of the flight's last known location, using over 20 technologies to analyze data, including a nuclear reactor.
They couldn't believe what they found in the Bay of Bengal.
"Our team was very excited when we found what we believe to be the wreckage of a commercial airliner," Pope said.
"We identified chemical elements and materials that make up a Boeing 777," said Pavel Kursa, of GeoResonance.
They sent an initial report to authorities while the black box still had two weeks of battery power.
And then verified their findings by analyzing images from the same area on March 5, three days before the plane disappeared.
"The wreckage wasn't there prior to the disappearance," Pope said.
The full report was delivered on April 15.
"We're not trying to say that it definitely is MH 370 but it's a lead that should be followed up," Pope said.
Carl Dorsch, of Tellus Resources, has used the company's technology for oil and gas exploration.
He believes they could be onto something.
"I just thought they had a moral duty," Dorsch said.
Seven News tried to contact the office of search coordinator Angus Houston today. But there was no response.
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Australian exploration company claims to have found missing Malaysia Airlines jet MH370
By PTI | 29 Apr, 2014, 08.16PM IST
KUALA LUMPUR: An Australian marine exploration firm today claimed that it has found the wreckage of the crashed Malaysian jet in the Bay of Bengal, 5,000 km away from the current search location in the Indian Ocean.
Adelaide-based GeoResonance yesterday said it had begun its own search for the missing flight MH370 on March 10, the Star newspaper reported.
GeoResonance's search covered 2,000,000 square kilometres of the possible crash zone, using images obtained from satellites ...
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/34386256.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
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Australian exploration company claims to have found missing Malaysia Airlines jet MH370
By PTI | 29 Apr, 2014, 08.16PM IST
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/34386256.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
For the sake of closure and for the families of the missing - I hope this turns out to be correct.
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For the sake of closure and for the families of the missing - I hope this turns out to be correct.
Amen!
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"This is probably the most difficult search in human history," said Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott. He also admitted the chance of finding debris on the ocean surface is slim to none.
I think a lot of arm chair searchers and conspiracy theorists don't really grasp the extent of this search. Think of the size of the US (including Alaska), multiply that by six. Then imagine trying to find something in that area the size of a couple of school buses. BUT, it can be above or below water, up to miles and miles deep so it isn't just looking along a two dimensional surface. Then, take into consideration it may be demolished into tens of thousands of small pieces that could be spread out along the top or below the surface. Add to that when you are searching on the ocean, you are searching on a dynamic landscape that is ever changing and flowing. Plus, there aren't people every few hundred feet or even miles that could spot something, like on land. They might as well be looking for something on the moon.
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I think a lot of arm chair searchers and conspiracy theorists don't really grasp the extent of this search. Think of the size of the US (including Alaska), multiply that by six. Then imagine trying to find something in that area the size of a couple of school buses. BUT, it can be above or below water, up to miles and miles deep so it isn't just looking along a two dimensional surface. Then, take into consideration it may be demolished into tens of thousands of small pieces that could be spread out along the top or below the surface. Add to that when you are searching on the ocean, you are searching on a dynamic landscape that is ever changing and flowing. Plus, there aren't people every few hundred feet or even miles that could spot something, like on land. They might as well be looking for something on the moon.
I imagine it would be easier to find something like this on the Moon, even from Earth itself.
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Sailor says she saw Flight MH370 go down in flames
By David K. Li
NY Post (http://nypost.com/2014/06/03/sailor-says-she-saw-flight-mh370-go-down-in-flames/)
June 3, 2014 | 3:50pm
A British woman, sailing the Indian Ocean in March, believes she saw the missing Malaysia Airlines jet going down in flames and smoke.
Katherine Tee, a 41-year-old Liverpool resident, just came forward and filed a report with authorities last weekend.
The sailor said she and her husband were en route to Phuket, Thailand, after a 13-month sea journey when she allegedly spotted a flaming object in the night sky.
“I was on a night watch. My husband was asleep below deck and our one other crew member was asleep on deck,” she told the Phuket Gazette.
“I saw something that looked like a plane on fire. That’s what I thought it was. Then, I thought I must be mad.”
Flight MH370 went missing shortly after its departure in the early hours of March 8. An international search has yet to turn up any evidence of where the jetliner, with 239 passengers and crew on board, might have gone.
“It caught my attention because I had never seen a plane with orange lights before, so I wondered what they were,” she said.
“I could see the outline of the plane, it looked longer than planes usually do. There was what appeared to be black smoke streaming from behind it.”
Tee also reported seeing two other nearby planes, and she assumed those aircraft would have reported any distressed jet.
“There were two other planes passing well above it — moving the other way — at that time. They had normal navigation lights. I remember thinking that if it was a plane on fire that I was seeing, the other aircraft would report it,” she said.
“And then, I wondered again why it had such bright orange lights. They reminded me of sodium lights. I thought it could be some anomaly or just a meteor. It was approaching to cross behind our stern from the north. When I checked again later, it had moved across the stern and was moving away to the south.”
Tee and her husband arrived in Phuket on March 10 and only then did she begin to realize the significance of what she might have seen.
Tee was slow to report the sighting because her memory is fuzzy about the exact time it happened.
“I wasn’t sure of the date or time [of the sighting]. I am still not,” Tee said.
“I did think that what I saw would add little, and be dismissed with the thousands of other sightings that I assumed were being reported. I thought that the authorities would be able to track [the plane's] GPS log, which I assumed was automatically transmitted, or something like that.”
The world traveler still isn’t 100 percent sure of what she actually spotted.
“’Most of all, I wasn’t sure of what I saw. I couldn’t believe it myself, and didn’t think anyone would believe me when I was having trouble believing my own eyes,” said Tee.
“I didn’t even consider putting out a Mayday at the time. Imagine what an idiot I would have looked like if I was mistaken, and I believed I was. So I dismissed it, and got on with the business of fixing myself and my marriage.”
It was only this past weekend that Tee and her husband filed a report to the Joint Agency Coordination Center, the Australian organization coordinating the search for Flight MH370.
Tee said she regrets not speaking up a long time ago.
“Will this help the authorities of the families get closure? I have no idea. All I can confirm is that I have since learnt that we were in the right place at the right time, so it seems possible, but I chose to sweep it under the carpet and now I feel really bad,” Tee said.
“Maybe I should have had a little more confidence in myself. I am sorry I didn’t take action sooner.”
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Sailor says she saw Flight MH370 go down in flames
I'll file that away into the "370 BS Folder."
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Revealed: Captain Zaharie Shah is the 'chief suspect' in official MH370 investigation
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2664882/Captain-missing-MH370-flight-revealed-chief-suspect-Malaysias-official-police-investigation.html
The captain of MH370 is now 'chief suspect' in Malaysia's official police investigation into the ongoing mystery of the Malaysia Airlines jet's disappearance - after investigators found suspicious evidence from a flight simulator in his home.
Captain Zaharie Shah, 53, reportedly used his home simulator to practice take-off and landings in remote locations, including some airstrips in the southern Indian Ocean.
Investigators have now managed to obtain the files - which had been deleted before they swept the machine.
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Revealed: Captain Zaharie Shah is the 'chief suspect' in official MH370 investigation
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2664882/Captain-missing-MH370-flight-revealed-chief-suspect-Malaysias-official-police-investigation.html
Am I the only "kook" here that thinks there's a decent chance this plane never crashed?
:shrug:
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Am I the only "kook" here that thinks there's a decent chance this plane never crashed?
:shrug:
I wonder that as well some days.
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I think the muzzies pulled off a good one this time.
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Am I the only "kook" here that thinks there's a decent chance this plane never crashed?
:shrug:
You're not. I would place a bet on west of Iran, south of Turkey, east of Syria and Jordan ... well you get the picture.
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Am I the only "kook" here that thinks there's a decent chance this plane never crashed?
:shrug:
Maybe you're not the only one, but this is kookiness.
Ever heard of "the secret too big to keep?"
This plane is at the bottom of the ocean and will never be found.
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Am I the only "kook" here that thinks there's a decent chance this plane never crashed?
:shrug:
I doubt you're a kook, but I definitely think you're wrong about the plane. It's been 3 months now and there hasn't been hide nor hair of the plane, the passengers/crew, or even any claims of responsibility. What on Earth would be the point of going through the entire rigmarole just to make it look like the plane actually crashed and sank with all hands lost? Whatever the pilot may have originally intended to do, the conclusion is inescapable by now that it crashed into the ocean.
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I doubt you're a kook, but I definitely think you're wrong about the plane. It's been 3 months now and there hasn't been hide nor hair of the plane, the passengers/crew, or even any claims of responsibility. What on Earth would be the point of going through the entire rigmarole just to make it look like the plane actually crashed and sank with all hands lost? Whatever the pilot may have originally intended to do, the conclusion is inescapable by now that it crashed into the ocean.
You could draw a good conclusion that the plan went awry and the plane crashed deep in the sea, but I don't think that conclusion is inescapable. I think these terrorists have shown that they have incredible patience, organization, resources and no lack of boots on the ground to pull off scenarios that we can only imagine. I think we underestimate them at our own risk and I have no doubt that if they had the gonads to try to pull off such a thing that it is possible they could succeed.
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Truly, there is just no way to say for certain what happened.
It might have crashed at sea on purpose.
It might have crashed at sea because it ran out of fuel before reaching whatever place the person at the controls was trying to go.
It landed somewhere, was refueled, and quickly departed without passengers and maybe the cargo as well. This would greatly increase the range due to the reduced weight.
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You could draw a good conclusion that the plan went awry and the plane crashed deep in the sea, but I don't think that conclusion is inescapable. I think these terrorists have shown that they have incredible patience, organization, resources and no lack of boots on the ground to pull off scenarios that we can only imagine. I think we underestimate them at our own risk and I have no doubt that if they had the gonads to try to pull off such a thing that it is possible they could succeed.
Truly, there is just no way to say for certain what happened.
It might have crashed at sea on purpose.
It might have crashed at sea because it ran out of fuel before reaching whatever place the person at the controls was trying to go.
It landed somewhere, was refueled, and quickly departed without passengers and maybe the cargo as well. This would greatly increase the range due to the reduced weight.
And, according to quantum physics, it is theoretically possible that the entire thing suddenly appeared in orbit around Alpha Centauri.
The issue isn't theoretically possibility, but realistic probability, and on that score there is no plausible scenario in which "muzzie" (God how I hate that ugly term) terrorists seized the plane, flew it God knows where, safely landed it, disposed of the passengers without detection, and haven't said "boo" about it for three plus months. There is no terror in a terrorist hijacking that is indistinguishable from a crash into the deep ocean.
The plane didn't land anywhere; it crashed into the southern Indian Ocean someplace and the wreckage - and whatever's left of the passengers' bodies - is now strewn across the bottom in places that are a mile deep in spots.
The belief that the plane was seized and "warehoused" for use later on is also improbable. If terrorists were looking to acquire a fleet of planes with a long-term purpose - i.e., not for immediate use - then there are much easier ways to go about doing it. For one thing, if one were going to start hijacking planes, one would start with hijacking cargo planes. A lot more cargo planes disappear than do passenger planes and those that do get a lot less attention from searchers and the public when they go missing, as opposed to the massive public searches that go on for passenger planes. For another, getting rid of unwanted cargo is a lot easier and a lot less messier than getting rid of unwanted passengers; in fact, depending on the cargo, the hijackers might even be able to turn a small profit selling it on the black market.
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Was MH370's cockpit tampered with? Australian investigators discover evidence of mysterious power outage during early part of the flight
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2674694/Was-MH370s-cockpit-tampered-Australian-investigators-discover-evidence-mysterious-power-outage-early-flight.html
Missing plane's satellite data unit tried to log-on to a satellite, report reveals
Australian Transport Safety Bureau says this could be due to power outage
Log-on attempt occurred half an hour after plane left Kuala Lumpur
Expert suggests power interruption could have been caused by an attempt to switch off Boeing 777's communication systems to avoid radar detection