The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: txradioguy on November 05, 2017, 07:18:24 pm
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Several people were shot at a church in Texas on Sunday, police told Fox News.
The “mass shooting” was reported at First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, which is about 35 miles east of San Antonio.
Constable Thomas Silvas from Precinct 1 in Wilson County confirmed to Fox News that there was a mass shooting at the church and they are working on removing the bodies.
It is unclear the exact number of people who were wounded or dead.
A witness told KSAT that a man walked into the church about 11:30 a.m. Sunday and opened fire at the crowd of people. The church holds morning worship services at 11 a.m., according to its website.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/05/mass-shooting-reported-at-texas-sutherland-springs-church.html
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Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052163/Up-16-shot-Texas-church-gunman-opens-fire.html):
BREAKING NEWS: Up to 16 shot at Texas church after gunman opens fire during service
At least 16 people were shot by a gunman who opened fire just before 11.30am
The shooting occurred at the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs in Texas
A witness said among those who were shot in the attack was a two-year-old child
Another witness said a man 'in full gear' walked into the church and opened fire
Victims were transported to a local hospital and it's unclear if any are deceased
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Was no one carrying? I have my weapon with me, even on Sunday mornings.
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Updated headline at KSAT's website (https://www.ksat.com/news/shooting-sutherland-springs-church-gunfire-mass-shooting-airlife) says that the shooter is dead...
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MSNBC producer tweets:
Jesse RodriguezVerified account @JesseRodriguez 9m9 minutes ago
Live on @MSNBC right now, Wilson Co., TX commissioner Albert Gamez, Jr reports up to 24 dead in the church shooting in Sutherland Springs
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OMG 24 dead what the bleep is the matter with people!
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Ben Shapiro Retweeted
Bret BaierVerified account @BretBaier 27m27 minutes ago
Bret Baier Retweeted Jesse Rodriguez
At Sunday church services! And the town is only about 1000 people - hard to even imagine the pain and loss in that community this morning - horrific. Prayers up. 🙏
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horrific ... live reporting here .... DPS / Homeland Security about to give presser http://www.kgw.com/news/witnesses-several-people-shot-at-church-in-sutherland-springs/489262605
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Good grief.
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Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052163/Up-16-shot-Texas-church-gunman-opens-fire.html):
...
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Was no one carrying? I have my weapon with me, even on Sunday mornings.
I didn't used to. That just changed.
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Lee Stranahan Retweeted
Max Massey @MaxMasseyTV 30m30 minutes ago
People are gathering at the Community Building learning what they can about their family and friends. Heartbreaking news and tears.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN5OjcpUMAA-f2z.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN5WayQVoAA4eZ5.jpg)
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At Least 20 Dead And 30 Injured In Texas Church Shooting
At least 20 people were killed and 30 injured in a Texas church shooting Sunday morning, law enforcement sources told ABC News.
The alleged shooter is dead, and it appears there is no longer an active threat at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, about 40 miles southeast of San Antonio, police told ABC News.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/texas-church-scene-shooting-report-192705171--abc-news-topstories.html
Terrible......
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I'm hearing 27 dead
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The Daily BeastVerified account @thedailybeast 7m7 minutes ago
Replying to @thedailybeast
Whatever the final toll, this is the deadliest church shooting in modern American history, surpassing Emanuel AME
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May God have mercy on us all!
This is horrific! What is going on????
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Bette MidlerVerified account @BetteMidler 10m10 minutes ago
NOW IS THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL! Another senseless mowing down of innocent citizens who have THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE WITHOUT FEAR!!
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Has a liberal rushed to a microphone yet to blame the NRA/Republicans? Jaded, you say? You bet I am.
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Has a liberal rushed to a microphone yet to blame the NRA/Republicans? Jaded, you say? You bet I am.
I didn't have to wait long for my answer.
Bette MidlerVerified account @BetteMidler 10m10 minutes ago
NOW IS THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL! Another senseless mowing down of innocent citizens who have THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE WITHOUT FEAR!!
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Has a liberal rushed to a microphone yet to blame the NRA/Republicans? Jaded, you say? You bet I am.
I just posted one...but as you can guess they are all over twitter
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Prayers up for the victims, their families, and friends.
Seems when the Dems want to push gun control there is a series of these sort of events.
Waiting for more info.
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@second_sasha
Still no announcements on gunman's identity/motivation in the Sutherland Springs shooting. Anything circulated is false.
#SutherlandSprings
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https://twitter.com/GlacialOutwash/status/927286002325929984
What is that @kevindavis ? Is it supposed to be funny or what?
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@mystery-ak
We went to airport to pick up Wayne, here from London. This killing happened when we were gone. Came back home, Wayne is watching Cowboys game and I'm trying to get caught up on this killing. Be gone from home for one hour and the world changes.
I read here the killer is dead but no info. on him. Just head on CNN at least 20 dead and another 20 injured.
Maybe there will be a police update soon?? It is 3:32pm central time here now.
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What is that @kevindavis ? Is it supposed to be funny or what?
Something I should have vetted before I posted it. But I did remove it.
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This story has a two year old as one of the victims
http://www.kens5.com/news/local/witnesses-several-people-shot-at-church-in-sutherland-springs/489257566
G-d bless
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@mystery-ak
Here's another point - Wayne's friends in England are sending him texts to be sure he was not where the killing happened in Texas.
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I just posted one...but as you can guess they are all over twitter
I saw that. Since I'm not on social media, I always tend to forget about it until it gets reported on the news. I know there have been some very despicable things said on Twitter in the aftermath of previous tragedies. Somehow those disgusting things seem to bubble up and become visible for the world to digest.
I'm waiting for the first pol to try to capitalize on the tragedy. Libs have no shame, and the Bette Midlers of the world will applaud them for their "courage." What pukes they are.
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I didn't have to wait long for my answer.
Bette MidlerVerified account @BetteMidler 10m10 minutes ago
NOW IS THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL! Another senseless mowing down of innocent citizens who have THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE WITHOUT FEAR!!
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/358868-democrats-renew-calls-for-gun-control-in-wake-of-texas-church-shooting
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Some of the comments on FOX News ...
Cambob
24 fewer trump cultists
Reply
Share
wstark
The shooter was just another deranged, gun-loving Trump worshiper, despondent over the impending demise of his Dear Orange Messiah's illegitimate Presidency.
Reply
Share
mark_t_wain
God the Gun supporters and NRA have wrecked the country !!
Reply
Share
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May God have mercy on us all!
This is horrific! What is going on????
What's going on is 50 years of Liberals attacking Christians and Christianity. A coarseness in the political discourse on BOTH sides that encourages and almost gives a green light to resort to violence to get your political point across.
It's an overall degradation or our society and morals that tells someone it's perfectly ok to enter God's house and start don't the devil's work.
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Something I should have vetted before I posted it. But I did remove it.
Yeah, that site was confusing.
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Classic. Without knowing the identity nor motivation of the shooter, before the blood is dry, the Democrats are pushing their antigun agenda.
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Just turned on TV and saw this. Prayers for those affected and their families.
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Classic. Without knowing the identity nor motivation of the shooter, before the blood is dry, the Democrats are pushing their antigun agenda.
Because liberalism is a mental disorder.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/05/21/460DE89000000578-5052163-image-a-125_1509918406731.jpg)
Someone should tell this dim bulb these places are ‘gun free zones’ in most of the country and the Vegas shooter was hundreds of yards away from the venue.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,288901.0.html
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The Pastor's 14 year old daughter is among the dead.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,288901.0.html
I suggest that any whining you want to do today..you keep it on the thread you linked to in your post.
This is NOT the thread for your BS.
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This is NOT the thread for your BS.
It's not "BS" and it does indeed relate to this topic.
Fatal habit... killing the messenger.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,288901.0.html
Word to the wise: The last poster who interrupted a thread about a mass killing (Manchester) to whine about a time out got permanently banned for it. STFU.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
Terrible misapplication of the word irony and hardly the subject matter to say ‘I told you so.’ Expect more ridicule.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
Freaking crybaby.
Widdle man who is awww upset he get no attention he think he deserve.
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
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Chelsea Handler
@chelseahandler
Innocent people go to church on Sunday to honor their God, and while doing so, get shot in killed. What country? America. Why? Republicans.
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Various media outlets reporting that the shooter fled the scene in a vehicle, and was killed by police after a brief pursuit...
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
I hope they bury this SOB covered in bacon grease.
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Ironically, no one was interested in my "king of terror" topic...
too busy attacking and banning me for no good reason.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,288901.0.html
I needed a break from Christians being slaughtered in church so I checked out the article you linked.
Based on a medium channeling Nostradamus?
Seriously?
Leviticus 19:31: Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 18:10: There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deuteronomy 18:11: Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deuteronomy 18:12: For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
'nuff said.
This thread is about those shot in Texas in a Christian Church by a Muslim Convert. How about we stick to that.
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1498/00/1498001767637.jpg)
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
Maybe not.....
“Samir al-Hajeed” and variations of the name “Sam Hyde” have featured in multiple mass shooting hoaxes in recent years. Sam Hyde is a real person — a “second-rate Internet comedian,” according to Forbes contributor Fruzsina Eordogh, who explained last year that “Sam Hyde is the shooter” has become a favorite meme of online trolls.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/02/columnist-for-sheldon-adelsons-las-vegas-newspaper-blames-muslim-terror-for-shooting/?utm_term=.5620bd550e2c
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
Wondering how a Santa Monica newspaper has this story first? Is this verified?
Cuellar is on Fox and did not give name but said shooter from north of San Antonio, has been posting online the last few days.
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Islamic Convert is Shooter in Church Shooting in Sutherland, Texas. He Left Online Manifesto
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-texas-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
Convert to or from Islam ??
This says he had a Muslim name.
This shooting happened near San Antonio that has a huge military base.
" Mustachio Tweeted: #texaschurchshooting shooter is 29 year old US marine turned muslim convert, Samir Al-Hajeed. His manifesto is making its rounds on the web "
http://www.smobserved.com/story/2017/11/05/news/islamic-convert-is-shooter-in-church-shooting-in-sutherland-he-left-online-manifesto/3188.html
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Maybe not.....
“Samir al-Hajeed” and variations of the name “Sam Hyde” have featured in multiple mass shooting hoaxes in recent years. Sam Hyde is a real person — a “second-rate Internet comedian,” according to Forbes contributor Fruzsina Eordogh, who explained last year that “Sam Hyde is the shooter” has become a favorite meme of online trolls.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/02/columnist-for-sheldon-adelsons-las-vegas-newspaper-blames-muslim-terror-for-shooting/?utm_term=.5620bd550e2c
Yes, Sam Hyde is a meme. Maybe we'll get a name at presser.
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Wondering how a Santa Monica newspaper has this story first? Is this verified?
Cuellar is on Fox and did not give name but said shooter from north of San Antonio, has been posting online the last few days.
The story is NOT verified...I am working on that now
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The Associated PressVerified account @AP 4m4 minutes ago
BREAKING: Pastor's wife says she and husband were out of town when Texas church was attacked but teen daughter is among the dead
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The Right Scoop @TheRightScoop 1m1 minute ago
***Police searching for EXPLOSIVES at residence of #SutherlandSprings shooter....
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Anniversary of Fort Hood shooting.
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Pastor's daughter
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/05/21/460DDE7D00000578-0-image-m-106_1509918670945.jpg)
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Oh, Jeez! Henry Cuellar Dimocrap TX just said Lone Wolf and Mental Illness- how predictable.
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So, so Sad. Prayers UP!
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Terrible. Prayers for the victims and their families.
And just like that, though, Hillary campaign corruption will be out of the news... not that the MSM was interested in covering it in the first place.
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Oh, Jeez! Henry Cuellar Dimocrap TX just said Lone Wolf and Mental Illness- how predictable.
Typical Liberal knee jerk comment.
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Terrible. Prayers for the victims and their families.
And just like that, though, Hillary campaign corruption will be out of the news... not that the MSM was interested in covering it in the first place.
Yes, and yep.
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Gov. Abbott headed to scene. Maybe they are waiting on him before starting the presser.
This has gone on for numerous hours and not much info.
Pastor and wife out of town. Who was the sub preacher?
I'm sitting here in the kitchen watching TV in here. Will make cup of coffee as I'm not leaving this TV until I know what is happening in my own state. Man, I hate this, so many killed and I've read over 20 shot and in hospital.
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Pastor's daughter
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/05/21/460DDE7D00000578-0-image-m-106_1509918670945.jpg)
8888crybaby
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I also saw that half of the Congregation is dead.
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Just about everyone in the church was shot or killed. Automatic weapons and not from Sutherland Springs, but from "north of San Antonio" and had been posting online per Henry Cuellar.
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Pastor's daughter
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/05/21/460DDE7D00000578-0-image-m-106_1509918670945.jpg)
Heart-breaking.
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Gov. Abbott headed to scene. Maybe they are waiting on him before starting the presser.
This has gone on for numerous hours and not much info.
Pastor and wife out of town. Who was the sub preacher?
I'm sitting here in the kitchen watching TV in here. Will make cup of coffee as I'm not leaving this TV until I know what is happening in my own state. Man, I hate this, so many killed and I've read over 20 shot also shot and in hospital.
I had so many things on my To-Do list today. I'm not leaving either. I WANT ANSWERS FOR MY FELLOW BELIEVERS AND FELLOW TEXANS. Keeping my Kleenex nearby.
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NYTs has 25 dead. Seeing other reports at 27.
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Jack Smith IVVerified account @JackSmithIV 16m16 minutes ago
Oh good, a Texas congressman just said on CNN that SAM HYDE was the church shooter.
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
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Anniversary of Fort Hood shooting.
Good catch !
I had thought of that too... but I didn't realize this is the exact anniversary. WOW!
Nov. 5, 2009 US Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Hasan went on a shooting rampage at Fort Hood, Texas that killed 12 soldiers, one civilian and injured many others.
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Jack Smith IVVerified account @JackSmithIV 16m16 minutes ago
Oh good, a Texas congressman just said on CNN that SAM HYDE was the church shooter.
From what I'm seeing it isn't..
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Jack Smith IVVerified account @JackSmithIV 16m16 minutes ago
Oh good, a Texas congressman just said on CNN that SAM HYDE was the church shooter.
Do you now who is was? Jeesh!
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Here's another one
Chris Ward Identified as Texas Church Shooter
https://www.hollywoodlanews.com/chris-ward-texas-shooter/
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@CNN HAS BEEN PUNKED. FAKE CONGRESSMAN CLAIMS SHOOTER WAS SAM HYDE...CNN HASNT MADE A CORRECTION YET. SOURCE CHECK GEEZ
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
No one knows what the future holds. He may have spared these folks from any of a number of evils by bringing them home to Him. He knows what He is doing.
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Here's another one
Chris Ward Identified as Texas Church Shooter
https://www.hollywoodlanews.com/chris-ward-texas-shooter/
@mystery-ak
Heard some are saying he was a victim- he lived in Sutherland Springs and the shooter did not.
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No one knows what the future holds. He may have spared these folks from any of a number of evils by bringing them home to Him. He knows what He is doing.
By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
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On Fox - shooter may have military background and had been posting pics of "assault weapons" on FB lately. White male in his twenties not from the town where shooting occurred. Lived 20-30 away, north of San Antonio.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
Why don't you start another thread where you can dictate how a sovereign god should run his creation and leave this thread for the discussion of the mass murder.
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On Fox - shooter may have military background and had been posting pics of "assault weapons" on FB lately. White male in his twenties not from the town where shooting occurred. Lived 20-30 away, north of San Antonio.
Oh, by the way, when is a woman ever going to be implicated in a mass murder for once?
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@CNN HAS BEEN PUNKED. FAKE CONGRESSMAN CLAIMS SHOOTER WAS SAM HYDE...CNN HASNT MADE A CORRECTION YET. SOURCE CHECK GEEZ
It's the "King of Terror" and his Kremlin trolls at work.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
We're all upset over the senseless slaughter/bloodshed.
I've asked some of the same questions you have every time I walk through the halls of Children's Hospital.
Breathe...and streamline the process for concealed carry permits.
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
It is EXACTLY this type of "event" that should bring you closer to God. Not push you further away.
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UPDATE: The suspect has been identified as 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley, the New York Times reports. Details soon.
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Devin Michael Kelly age 26, supposedly a convert to the religion of pieces.
Got middle name wrong- it's Patrick.
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UPDATE: @CBSNews reports that Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, is the suspect behind today's church shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas.
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It is EXACTLY this type of "event" that should bring you closer to God. Not push you further away.
Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
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It is EXACTLY this type of "event" that should bring you closer to God. Not push you further away.
Nailed it.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
You don't know what future awaited any of these people. But you are enamored enough of your opinion to spit in His face?
When the last bit is done, we all will die. Hate to rock your boat.
There are far more miserable and slower ways to die than being hit by a bullet.
Now think of a nice pleasant way to check out. How many just don't get that?
In a house of worship, suddenly, mind on The Almighty, is a lot safer, spiritually, than in that moment of temptation looking at the newsstand and getting hit by a truck.
The only evil I am seeing is what was done and the person who did it.
Sodom had only a handful of survivors, the rest were obliterated or turned into a pillar of salt. The Almighty did that. He warned the righteous to leave, and they did. This isn't on Him, it's on the person who chose to be evil. God will look after His own.
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
but you bring up a very important point that relates to the Bible.
Read Ezekiel 9... it is prophecy about how God will send destroyers
to destroy Jerusalem and the temple because of Israel's sinful rebellion.
In verse Ezekiel 9:6... God says to begin the destruction at My temple.
This also relates to what Peter said in the NT, that God's judgment begins
at the House of God... and if it begins with us... what will be the end of it
for the rest of humanity [1 Peter 4:17.]
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@mystery-ak
Do we have to endure a God-dissing discussion on this thread? Can a new thread be created to have that discussion?
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Anniversary of Fort Hood shooting.
It's also Guy Fawkes night.
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Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
You are the one abandoning Him. Think about that, and reconsider. He gave us all a choice.
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Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
You say God abandoned these people like you somehow know what is in God's mind.
In all of the bile you're spewing right now did you EVER stop to think that God has nothing to do with this and it has everything to do with Satan manifested in the body of the shooter?
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UPDATE: @CBSNews reports that Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, is the suspect behind today's church shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas.
Looks like the sort you wouldn't want to sit next to at a doctors office....
(https://everipedia-storage.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/ProfilePics/devin-kelley__18361_100x100.png)
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
I would suggest you are ignorant of the scriptures then.
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." - Matthew 24:9
"If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first." - John 15:18
"They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God." - John 16:2
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” - John 16:33
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Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
Jimmy, He did not abandon them, nor will He abandon you. There are many things that I don’t understand and this is one of them. But I know for certain, because He has assured me in His Word, that He will never forsake me. He was there with them when this happened, and now those believers will spend eternity with Him.
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@mystery-ak
Do we have to endure a God-dissing discussion on this thread? Can a new thread be created to have that discussion?
I agree...Please stay on topic....if you wish to delve deeper into the *why did God let this happen* start another thread.
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The real travesty is that God callously left His own people, in His own house, for DEAD. No good and righteous God could do such a thing. This is inexcusable. Period.
You don't know much about God, do you?
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G-d gave a lot of horrible things happen to Job. I never understood why he didn't say blank off until last year when everything went to poop in my life and I finally got it.
I was agnostic. Now I'm not
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No one knows what the future holds. He may have spared these folks from any of a number of evils by bringing them home to Him. He knows what He is doing.
No God did not "Bring them home!"
We all suffer at some point in time because of the rebellion in the Garden.
What God did is to give man Free Will and the Right to be more than puppets!
(Read the book of Job which gives the answer to this very question)
Job, the Apostles, Jesus ....
As written: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel.
So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty.
That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
Another reason for suffering is “time and unexpected events.”
(Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)
I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all.
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Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
@jmylefuller
Humans have the right of choice - to do bad things or do good things - that choice started with Adam and Eve. This isn't the thread for your problem with God. PM me if you want to discuss that. I've just started writing a book about such.
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Looks like the sort you wouldn't want to sit next to at a doctors office....
(https://everipedia-storage.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/ProfilePics/devin-kelley__18361_100x100.png)
Antifa connection in 3...2...
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It's also Guy Fawkes night.
Yes it is. Guy Fawkes attempted to assassinate the entire English Parliament 5 November, 1605.
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I agree...Please stay on topic....if you wish to delve deeper into the *why did God let this happen* start another thread.
Did you not ban religion threads?
But if you wish, I will cease discussion of the topic.
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@jmylefuller
Humans have the right of choice - to do bad things or do good things - that choice started with Adam and Eve. This isn't the thread for your problem with God. PM me if you want to discuss that. I've just started writing a book about such.
Hate to ruin your day but some dude already wrote that book.....
(http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/reading-the-bible.jpg)
....have you thought about a book on tuning a Chevy LT1 to get 40 more horsepower? I think that idea is till available.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
This is the dumbest thing I've read on these forums in a long, long time.
What it really demonstrates is your complete and utter lack of understanding regarding the finite versus the infinite. The worldly versus the eternal.
Look at it this way, if I said, "Myrle, give me all the money in your wallet and bank accounts," you'd probably think I was taking too much... that I was going to cause you to suffer. If that demand was followed up with, "In turn, I shall grant you access to limitless wealth," you'd comply. For the sake of argument, let's just say I'm going to give you $10 trillion dollars and you *knew* that I would. Hell, you'd empty your bank accounts so fast it would put you out of breath.
God lives in the eternal. The infinite. No finite amount of suffering here on Earth can measure up to the infinite joy of God in Heaven. In plain mathematical terms, any finite number divided by infinity equals ZERO. Any finite unhappiness or suffering when compared to infinite joy equals zero.
So, anyone with an inkling of understanding about how the infinite relates to our finite existence here on Earth simply *knows* that the finite suffering we felt while alive becomes infinitesimal and irrelevant when we join God in Heaven.
Of course, you have to be faithful to God first - and not the anthropomorphized God you think about. He's not a white-bearded man sitting in the clouds. Only children think like that. Sophisticated thinkers understand what "I am" actually means.
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Why should I be closer to a God that abandoned these people? Will He not abandon me the same way?
You're such a limited, terrestrial thinker.
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Did you not ban religion threads?
But if you wish, I will cease discussion of the topic.
Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea: "Why does God allow his children to suffer such pain?" Why indeed? He let his own Son be nailed to a cross, to agonize for many hours. As @mystery-ak suggests, it's a good topic, but on its own thread. This one is for discussion and mourning.
Start a thread.
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You're such a limited, terrestrial thinker.
Technically aren't we all?
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Chris MurphyVerified account @ChrisMurphyCT 42m42 minutes ago
Can you sleep tonight, colleagues, when the price of gun lobby goodwill is this - blood soaked church and school floors, city streets?
393 replies 2,605 retweets 5,552 likes
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Technically aren't we all?
Yeah, but it's the qualifier "such" that sets him apart.
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Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea: "Why does God allow his children to suffer such pain?" Why indeed? He let his own Son be nailed to a cross, to agonize for many hours. As @mystery-ak suggests, it's a good topic, but on its own thread. This one is for discussion and mourning.
Start a thread.
Hear! Hear! If you start a new thread instead of hijacking an existing one, you might get a more focused discussion. Most of us are trying to follow the events in Sutherland Springs.
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Technically aren't we all?
Try "filled with the Spirit" instead of filled with the spirits sometime.
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Devin Michael Kelly age 26, supposedly a convert to the religion of pieces.
Got middle name wrong- it's Patrick.
Aren't they all?
Oh, that's right. They are usually right-wing Christians who cling to their guns and religion.
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Did you not ban religion threads?
But if you wish, I will cease discussion of the topic.
I would let a discussion start on that subject..just not here.
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Try "filled with the Spirit" instead of filled with the spirits sometime.
That will go over some heads. :whistle:
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From what I'm seeing this a**hole might be a member of Antifa..
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@Cyber Liberty
I saw the pictures and heard about the lives of those killed in New York. So many of them had just finished college, having degrees in serious subjects and were just starting new jobs or looking for jobs in those areas. It takes courage and persistence to get those degrees and now their lives were gone. I mourned for their loss. I saw one of the father's and he was in shock that his son was gone when he had just started his life in a career.
We have evil people killing us and now many dead today.
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From what I'm seeing this a**hole might be a member of Antifa..
Got links?
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That will go over some heads. :whistle:
Right. He spends way too much time under the pool table in the Lounge.
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Got links?
That is what I'm seeing on twitter:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/devinpatrickkelley?f=tweets&vertical=default&src=hash
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN5iNpRVwAADBn3.jpg:small)
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G-d gave a lot of horrible things happen to Job. I never understood why he didn't say blank off until last year when everything went to poop in my life and I finally got it.
I was agnostic. Now I'm not
@Freya
You are a blessing to everyone here, you have a kind spirit.
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Try "filled with the Spirit" instead of filled with the spirits sometime.
You can try and sell your bullshit wit to the Catholics. I'm not buying.
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Shaddap Durbin...
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Chris MurphyVerified account @ChrisMurphyCT 42m42 minutes ago
Can you sleep tonight, colleagues, when the price of gun lobby goodwill is this - blood soaked church and school floors, city streets?
393 replies 2,605 retweets 5,552 likes
Didn't these azzhole just bitch that Donny was out of line by calling out the filthy dirty disgusting muslims for being garbage last week while that event was taking place?
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Bodies aren't even cold yet and already the Democrats want to confiscate all guns. Who cares about the victims? More important to score political points.
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@mystery-ak
How do you transport 20+ bodies out of the church? Are the bodies still in the church?
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You can try and sell your bullshit wit to the Catholics. I'm not buying.
Pearl harborer.
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@mystery-ak
How do you transport 20+ bodies out of the church? Are the bodies still in the church?
I saw a report that bodies were in the church per investigative procedures and that there was air support, helicopters, taking people away. Don't know if those helicopters were transporting dead bodies.
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Presser started, Gov. Abbott.
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@mystery-ak
How do you transport 20+ bodies out of the church? Are the bodies still in the church?
Fox news said a close neighbor to the church said he heard 27 gun shots.
Then he said something odd. Not only does he not attend that church but
he knows no one who does [in a small town of about 400 people ??]
Fox also just said the pastor was out of town.
.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN6AS4UWsAEua9Q.jpg)
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@mystery-ak
How do you transport 20+ bodies out of the church? Are the bodies still in the church?
I don't know....My guess is the dead are still in the church...
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@mystery-ak
How do you transport 20+ bodies out of the church? Are the bodies still in the church?
IIRC the dead can't be removed until they are released by the investigators then they are turned over to the coroner's office.
If there were helicopters being used those were to transport this still alive to places like Brooke Army Medical Center and other San Antonio area trauma centers designed to handle a mass casulty event like this.
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@RealDoctorWhite 51m51 minutes ago
More Dr. White Retweeted ABC News
According to 4chan & his Facebook page he was:
A leftist
Was Anti-Trump
Atheist
Opposed “Christianity”
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Bodies aren't even cold yet and already the Democrats want to confiscate all guns. Who cares about the victims? More important to score political points.
They've been pushing gun control as far back in the early 70's so their reaction to this was predictable.
I think we are witnessing a breakdown of American society.
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They've been pushing gun control as far back in the early 70's so their reaction to this was predictable.
I think we are witnessing a breakdown of American society.
It's snowballing at warp speed right now.
Evil.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
No, there is a fourth possibility: there is no God who intervenes in temporal affairs to remove human suffering, but there is a God who entered into time to share human suffering, dying a far more painful death than a gunshot wound -- lacerations from a whip, puncture wounds, and gradual asphyxiation ending in pulmonary edema -- to transform suffering into a means of union with Him and to conquer death, rising again on the third day.
Last I checked, Baptists, like us Orthodox Christians, worship that God. It's too bad they don't like us commemorate their holy martyrs, or they'd have a new lot to add to their calendar (and no, we Orthodox don't wait for a "case to be made" and miracles to be confirmed like the Latins -- read the Life of St. Peter the Aleut or the Life of St. Herman of Alaska to see what I mean. I commemorate the Holy New Martyrs of Beslan on September 3 without any Holy Synod telling me to.)
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@RealDoctorWhite 51m51 minutes ago
More Dr. White Retweeted ABC News
According to 4chan & his Facebook page he was:
A leftist
Was Anti-Trump
Atheist
Opposed “Christianity”
If the shooter was Antifa, can they officially be declared a terrorist organization now...?
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Not identifying either the shooter, or the names of any victims yet.
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I just read the gunman is dead
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If the shooter was Antifa, can they officially be declared a terrorist organization now...?
Well I hope so.. I'm more concerned about Anitfa..
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TEXAS: PICTURED: Shooter Devin Kelly was an Antifa member, vowed to start civil war by “targeting white conservative churches,” causing anarchy.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN55ctZUMAAJyII.jpg:large)
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Abbot said they hoped to release information in the next 24 hours, but don't want to be inaccurate.
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If the shooter was Antifa, can they officially be declared a terrorist organization now...?
They already are.
US security officials have classified the left-wing group Antifa as "domestic terrorists", confidential documents have revealed.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-domestic-terrorists-us-security-agencies-homeland-security-fbi-a7927881.html
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TEXAS: PICTURED: Shooter Devin Kelly was an Antifa member, vowed to start civil war by “targeting white conservative churches,” causing anarchy.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN55ctZUMAAJyII.jpg:large)
Looks like Soros is liable for inciting this event. Hope every ambulance chasing creep lawyer is descending on that town as we speak.
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TEXAS: PICTURED: Shooter Devin Kelly was an Antifa member, vowed to start civil war by “targeting white conservative churches,” causing anarchy.
Also, if he's Antifa, then the fact that today is Guy Fawkes Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night#Guy_Fawkes_Day) may be significant.
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I just read the gunman is dead
@Freya
At the presser, it was said a local man came with a rifle and confronted killer when he left the church and shot at him. The shooter left in his car, then crashed his car and was found dead in the car. Not yet known if he shot himself or if the local with the rifle did shoot him and he died of that rifle shot.
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@RealDoctorWhite 51m51 minutes ago
More Dr. White Retweeted ABC News
According to 4chan & his Facebook page he was:
A leftist
Was Anti-Trump
Atheist
Opposed “Christianity”
He can't be both a Muslim and an atheist.
But he can hate Christianity either way.
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Devin Kelly’s Facebook page stated that he was an atheist and his interests included “Civil and social rights” and “Civil rights” as well as endorsements for local Texan Democratic political candidates. His page also featured photos of several high powered weapons.
His Facebook page was taken down without explanation less than an hour after the shooting.
(http://yournewswire.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DN5G2ZqX4AEP_Yb.jpg)
http://yournewswire.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
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He can't be both a Muslim and an atheist.
But he can hate Christianity either way.
I'm leaning towards an atheist and a member or a supporter of Antifa.
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Shooters Name is Devin Patrick Kelly Court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the Air Force in 2014.
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Fox report says its a town of about 400.
So this is in Everybody living there's life.
They All know or have family and/or friends who were killed or injured.
Prayers for everyone, EXCEPT, the Democrat Party In Toto who I'm personally blaming for this because of their never ending S^^t Raking Lies designed to stir up idiots like this shooter, BLM, Antifa, etc. and push them over the edge.
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Notice in this presser they released as little specific information as possible. They seem to have learned from the disastrous handling of the Las Vegas incident.
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Was out in the area just north of there up to La Vernia looking at property when I saw all the first responders heading in that direction. Didn't know what was going on at the time, but was scary as road after road was being blocked off. A long detour to get back to the SW side of San Antonio.
Last I heard, and may already be posted, that the shooter was some kook with a dishonorable discharge and possibly an Antifa supporter from north of San Antonio.
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Notice in this presser they released as little specific information as possible. They seem to have learned from the disastrous handling of the Las Vegas incident.
That's the way I took it too. They'll let us know when they actually have information.
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Dishonorable Discharge would normally prevent legal purchase of a firearm.
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You can bet your bottom dollar that if the leftists ever get their plan to take all the guns away from average citizens, the concentration camps will be swiftly created. Don't like the leftist brand of "social justice"? They'll have a room (or space) for you in the camps. If you're left alive, that is.
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Dishonorable Discharge would normally prevent legal purchase of a firearm.
Just goes t show that laws already on the books don't work.
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Was out in the area just north of there up to La Vernia looking at property when I saw all the first responders heading in that direction. Didn't know what was going on at the time, but was scary as road after road was being blocked off. A long detour to get back to the SW side of San Antonio.
Last I heard, and may already be posted, that the shooter was some kook with a dishonorable discharge and possibly an Antifa supporter from north of San Antonio.
@RetBobbyMI are you and your family ok?
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Just goes t show that laws already on the books don't work.
And why more gun control isn't the answer.
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From a black conservative:
Patty Politics @youngblackcon 2h2 hours ago
If only people put as much blame on shooters, mental illness and radical behavior as much as they blamed guns and people who are innocent.
A few other tweets:
Melania TrumpVerified account @FLOTUS 3h3 hours ago
Our hearts are with #Texas
Nick Short 🇺🇸Verified account @PoliticalShort 16m16 minutes ago
Sutherland Springs church shooter was engaged by a local resident who shot him with a shotgun.
SalenaZitoVerified account @SalenaZito
If he was indeed a dishonorable discharge. the Gun Control Act of 1968 explicitly states you cannot own a firearm
Nick Short
🇺🇸Verified account @PoliticalShort
Sutherland Springs church shooter was dressed in all black, tactical type gear & was wearing a ballistic vest. Total dead is 26, 20 injured.
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Shooters Name is Devin Patrick Kelly Court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the Air Force in 2014.
Love to know the details of that minor infraction. Something tells me it will revolve around hamster rape just looking at this creep.
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Dishonorable Discharge would normally prevent legal purchase of a firearm.
He may have had these guns before he was kicked out of the USAF
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@RetBobbyMI are you and your family ok?
Thank you, Yes we're ok. we had no idea what was going on at the time. Even in an area where many people have guns in their home, cars or truck, or on their person, the kooks come out of nowhere.
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He may have had these guns before he was kicked out of the USAF
Slapping myself...not guns...weapons...corrected before hubby reads it..lol
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Love to know the details of that minor infraction. Something tells me it will revolve around hamster rape just looking at this creep.
@txradioguy MIGHT be able to help with that.
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Devin Kelly’s Facebook page stated that he was an atheist and his interests included “Civil and social rights” and “Civil rights” as well as endorsements for local Texan Democratic political candidates. His page also featured photos of several high powered weapons.
His Facebook page was taken down without explanation less than an hour after the shooting.
(http://yournewswire.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DN5G2ZqX4AEP_Yb.jpg)
http://yournewswire.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
It could be real... or it could be a psy-op Facebook page created for this purpose.
Anything is possible.
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Living in the immediate geographical area where they are currently claiming he's from. He is in neither of my immediate County Jail databases, Comal, Guadalupe (New Braunfels, Seguin).
I'd bet he's a Bexar County, Sanctuary City, (San Antonio) transplant.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher ~ Van Morrison
@jmyrlefuller You got big cajones to bring that up in this Thread, people are suffering at all this weekly carnage, but I admire you for thinking on such a deep level.
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@RealDoctorWhite 51m51 minutes ago
More Dr. White Retweeted ABC News
According to 4chan & his Facebook page he was:
A leftist
Was Anti-Trump
Atheist
Opposed “Christianity”
Stop gun violence. Confiscate guns from democrats.
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Love to know the details of that minor infraction. Something tells me it will revolve around hamster rape just looking at this creep.
Foley: Wave good-bye to your buddies, Mayonnaise! Oh, I forgot. You don't have any buddies, do you? Only customers!
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It could be real... or it could be a psy-op Facebook page created for this purpose.
Anything is possible.
FBI was there fast. FB page taken down in an hour. Got some good screenshots of it to spread around before "we" knew who he was.
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The shooting probably was caught on camera, as the church regularly recorded Sunday services and posted them, according to KSAT (https://www.ksat.com/news/a-look-inside-sutherland-springs-first-baptist-church-before-mass-shooting)
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Stop gun violence. Confiscate guns from democrats.
No. Confiscate elected office from Democrats.
If they want to claim they're too stupid - the only defense they could possibly advance - for not knowing that This was what they've been cultivating/stirring up for losing - fair and square - an election, ever since Trump beat Hillary, that alone should disqualify the current crop of them from ever holding office again.
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He may have had these guns before he was kicked out of the USAF
That's assuming he got the weapons legally to begin with.
Usually someone with a DD on their record aren't too concerned with the legality of most things...including obtaining weapons.
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That's assuming he got the weapons legally to begin with.
Usually someone with a DD on their record aren't too concerned with the legality of most things...including obtaining weapons.
@txradioguy
Any chance you might find anything about his court-martial?
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Living in the immediate geographical area where they are currently claiming he's from. He is in neither of my immediate County Jail databases, Comal, Guadalupe (New Braunfels, Seguin).
I'd bet he's a Bexar County, Sanctuary City, (San Antonio) transplant.
I've heard on news reports, and I think it was said at the press conference, that he lived in Comal County. Wouldn't be unusual for a former Air Force member to settle in the area.
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@txradioguy
Any chance you might find anything about his court-martial?
Those records are sealed....
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Those records are sealed....
Yeah but there might have been news reports with info in them.
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I've heard on news reports, and I think it was said at the press conference, that he lived in Comal County. Wouldn't be unusual for a former Air Force member to settle in the area.
Many, Many Vets here, the databases indicate he hasn't been arrested here in Comal (by given name), which to me means he doesn't live here, regular german gestapo here in Comal County, TX, want me to send ya my Mug Shots?
http://public.co.comal.tx.us/default.aspx (http://public.co.comal.tx.us/default.aspx)
Good luck finding me, I was dressed as a man the both times they incarcerated me.
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FBI was there fast. FB page taken down in an hour. Got some good screenshots of it to spread around before "we" knew who he was.
Can you post them?
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Fox report says its a town of about 400.
So this is in Everybody living there's life.
They All know or have family and/or friends who were killed or injured.
Prayers for everyone, EXCEPT, the Democrat Party In Toto who I'm personally blaming for this because of their never ending S^^t Raking Lies designed to stir up idiots like this shooter, BLM, Antifa, etc. and push them over the edge.
Quite deliberately stirring them up.... all to further their leftist (anti-gun ownership) agenda.
God help the families of the dead and wounded.... and God help us all for what we are facing in this nation now.
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This will screw up the Lefts meme along with the shooter being one of them....
Texas Rangers: Armed Citizen ‘Engaged’ Killer, Ending Rampage
https://news.grabien.com/story-texas-dept-public-safety-armed-citizen-engaged-killer-ending
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Can you post them?
I didn't mean I had screenshots.
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Many, Many Vets here, the databases indicate he hasn't been arrested here in Comal (by given name), which to me means he doesn't live here, regular german gestapo here in Comal County, TX, want me to send ya my Mug Shots?
http://public.co.comal.tx.us/default.aspx (http://public.co.comal.tx.us/default.aspx)
Good luck finding me, I was dressed as a man the both times they incarcerated me.
Eh, I live in Williamson Co., which has it's own reputation for strict criminal enforcement... :shrug:
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@bigheadfred
I don't have the computer skills to post this but there is major mischief on the FB page of the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs. hundreds of likes from muslim names on posts from 9-17 and 10-1. The website usually gets two likes on a post. This is horrible. Someone might have spammed this to point the finger at muslims. Absolutely despicable. This congregation and town are suffering terribly.
Are the screenshots on /pol/?
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It is more than bizarre the Liberals/Progressive/Communists would claim that 'criminals', straight up criminal terrorists, would be worried about a 'Law' that would stop them.
We all know that Democrats/Liberals are insane, but this idea or 'rally point' that criminals would be worried about 'breaking the law', really is one of the more obvious clues to their Liberal mental disability.
If they want a gun, they will get one. And no stupid 'law' is going to stop them.
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@bigheadfred
I don't have the computer skills to post this but there is major mischief on the FB page of the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs. hundreds of likes from muslim names on posts from 9-17 and 10-1. The website usually gets two likes on a post. This is horrible. Someone might have spammed this to point the finger at muslims. Absolutely despicable. This congregation and town are suffering terribly.
Are the screenshots on /pol/?
I can do that.
What I meant is there seems to be info out there about his FB page even though it was taken down shortly after the shooting.
Click image to enlarge it.
(https://i.imgur.com/u0zvZId.png)
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This will screw up the Lefts meme along with the shooter being one of them....
Texas Rangers: Armed Citizen ‘Engaged’ Killer, Ending Rampage
https://news.grabien.com/story-texas-dept-public-safety-armed-citizen-engaged-killer-ending
It's not just the DD prohibition on owning guns.
from your link Frank;
He was dressed in all black, tactical type gear and was wearing a ballistic vest."
Body Armor used in the commission of a Crime of Violence is almost always a crime in itself, on top of the weapons offenses, and murder/manslaughter charges.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/when-its-illegal-to-own-a-bullet-proof-vest
So all of those Gun Free/Violence Free Statutes the left keeps shoving down everyone's throats, FAIL, on yet one more count.
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@bigheadfred
I don't have the computer skills to post this but there is major mischief on the FB page of the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs. hundreds of likes from muslim names on posts from 9-17 and 10-1. The website usually gets two likes on a post. This is horrible. Someone might have spammed this to point the finger at muslims. Absolutely despicable. This congregation and town are suffering terribly.
Are the screenshots on /pol/?
Looks like these FB likes by muslims on the church website go back to at least August. Is there anyway to tell the date the like was done? If today, I would say it's a hoax, if these posts are from August, Sept, and Oct., it may be another story.
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Same guy? http://jail.com/arrest-records/devin-patrick-kelly-5433445
https://everipedia.org/wiki/devin-kelley-1/
From his Facebook page a creepy picture of, I guess, a mother kissing her baby: https://libertywriters.com/2017/11/texas-shooter-identified-media-doesnt-want-see-devin-kelly/
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https://heavy.com/news/2017/11/devin-kelley-p-sutherland-springs-church-shooter-patrick-kelly/
Devin Kelley: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
David Begnaud
✔
@DavidBegnaud
TX Church Shooting
4 kids from 1 family shot:
5yo boy shot 4xs, now in surgery
5yo girl
7yo girl shot & in surgery
8yo hid under a pew
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@Freya
You are a blessing to everyone here, you have a kind spirit.
I want to second that!
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Looks like these FB likes by muslims on the church website go back to at least August. Is there anyway to tell the date the like was done? If today, I would say it's a hoax, if these posts are from August, Sept, and Oct., it may be another story.
What exactly are muslims "liking" on the church's fb page ??
Is it anything specific ??
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https://heavy.com/news/2017/11/devin-kelley-p-sutherland-springs-church-shooter-patrick-kelly/
Devin Kelley: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
David Begnaud
✔
@DavidBegnaud
TX Church Shooting
4 kids from 1 family shot:
5yo boy shot 4xs, now in surgery
5yo girl
7yo girl shot & in surgery
8yo hid under a pew
Children, scarred for life. **nononono*
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TXradioguy wrote:
"Antifa connection in 3...2..."
A couple of links (take them for what they're worth:
http://yournewswire.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/11/05/texas-church-shooter-identified-devin-patrick-kelly-26-from-new-braunfels-a-suburb-of-san-antonio/
I didn't see anything at the above two links that indicated any association with islam, or that the shooter was a muslim convert.
I'm not discounting the possibility of that. We'll know soon.
IF that turns out to be true -- if he's both a convert to islam -and- an "antifadan", expect to see this story dropped by the media quickly.
Also, he had a dishonorable discharge from the military.
Does a "dd" count the same as a felony conviction, insofar as a background check goes for the purchase of firearms?
If so, the AR-15 he owned, he DID NOT own "legally".
This massacre WAS NOT committed with "legally-owned" firearms.
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After the recent "terrorist" set up in my Texas hometown... I question everything.
Even the mayor questioned why foreigners and out of state activists came to our
hometown to become "victims" of "muslim terrorists."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/05/garland-texas-attack-muslim-community-reaction
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I want to second that!
Thanks I'm speechless and blushing. But I think there are a lot of Fine people here and I'm learning so much from all of all of you.
@Sanguine
@Victoria33
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I can do that.
What I meant is there seems to be info out there about his FB page even though it was taken down shortly after the shooting.
Click image to enlarge it.
(https://i.imgur.com/u0zvZId.png)
Thanks for the screenshot. I think Governor Abbott will be more forthcoming about this shooting than the FBI in Las Vegas.
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Looks like these FB likes by muslims on the church website go back to at least August. Is there anyway to tell the date the like was done? If today, I would say it's a hoax, if these posts are from August, Sept, and Oct., it may be another story.
There was another I saw that only had a couple of islam related posts but the likes were over 15,000. It was on Twitter and I think the date was August. The one I posted looks like mid-September. Look in the center of the pic for the dates Sept. 14 and 17th.
Here is another.
(https://i.imgur.com/jxKTz1A.png)
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What exactly are muslims "liking" on the church's fb page ??
Is it anything specific ??
Posts about scripture which is odd.
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Thanks I'm speechless and blushing. But I think there are a lot of Fine people here and I'm learning so much from all of all of you.
@Sanguine
@Victoria33
A third from me!
@Freya - you are a BLESSING!
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There was another I saw that only had a couple of islam related posts but the likes were over 15,000. It was on Twitter and I think the date was August. The one I posted looks like mid-September. Look in the center of the pic for the dates Sept. 14 and 17th.
Here is another.
(https://i.imgur.com/jxKTz1A.png)
@bigheadfred
There was a picture of him with a beard. I see he admits he had a beard and got rid of it but only says "it's a long story" when asked. It was a muslim beard, too. Yikes!
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Posts about scripture which is odd.
@KingsX
Another. Sept. 10
(https://i.imgur.com/9BX05Yl.png)
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@KingsX
Another. Sept. 10
(https://i.imgur.com/9BX05Yl.png)
@bigheadfred
Thanks again. What is my agenda? Interesting.
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/devon-patrick-kelley-texas-shooting-suspect-sutherland-springs-first-baptist-church-latest
Picture of the shooter with his muslim beard that he shaved off last week.
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@KingsX
Another. Sept. 10
(https://i.imgur.com/9BX05Yl.png)
It sometimes happens that these Facebook pages get swarmed with bots, many of whom have Arab names like this.
Given that this is (or at least was before the congregation was wiped out) a typically sized small-town church, it's extremely rare to have that kind of return on the Facebook posts of a church that size.
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Posts about scripture which is odd.
What scriptures... that may be important.
Is there a link or screen shot ??
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@KingsX
Another. Sept. 10
(https://i.imgur.com/9BX05Yl.png)
That's within the "last ten days of August"
I can barely make out that screen shot.
Looks like: "God, what is my agenda" ??
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@Freya
You are a blessing to everyone here, you have a kind spirit.
@Freya
I third (or fourth?) that!
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
@jmyrlefuller You are not alone asking these questions. They have always been asked in times that try men's souls, most especially by those with faith in God. Sometimes the questions are asked in vocal anger, sometimes in silent despair.
Questioning God in dark times is a part of belief in God; it is searching for Him when the light is dim.
Reading your posts reminded me of a movie I saw years ago ... almost ten years ago. It is about Jewish prisoners in Auschwitz waiting to learn who is the next to die. Their thoughts and conversation turn to God .... their confusion about Him and anger toward him.
They did not diminish their anger and confusion. Nor did they dismiss it. They put "God on Trial", which is the title of the movie.
Here is a link to just the verdict reached. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
This discussion is ended by German soldiers coming for the next to die.
The ones left are wondering aloud what to do now.
The answer, even after the verdict: "Now we pray".
The whole movie is extraordinary. It is thought provoking and food for the soul. I recommend it.
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That's within the "last ten days of August"
I can barely make out that screen shot.
Looks like: "God, what is my agenda" ??
Click on the image. It should enlarge it.
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I wonder where GeronL is tonight, he acted up that one night and was bitter and I'm sure much older than this Kelley fellow. GeronL was just real bitter about something. I think he hailed originally from New Braunfels but it sounded like he lived in the Metroplex now. So, I hope he and his loved ones are okay.
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F!!!! this bleep is from my town.
Kelley is a 26-year-old Air Force veteran from nearby New Braunfels, Texas, according to a LinkedIn account tied to his name and several news outlets.
https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/11/05/new-information-texas-shooter/ (https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/11/05/new-information-texas-shooter/)
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I'd like to say too, @KingsX 's gentle spirit and kindness are a big plus here too.
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Those statements on Trump are really deranged, GeronL was nice enough over at TOS, I'm repeating myself, but I sure hope GeronL was older than this guy, Kelley.
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Geronl was/is much older, the pics don't jive at all. just damn!!!!!!!!!!
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May God have mercy on us all!
This is horrific! What is going on????
That' what I've been saying. It's like something has been set in motion and somthing very wicked and feom the pits of Hell set lose. Evil like this, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas with no explaination other than a pure evil taking over troubled souls.
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F!!!! this bleep is from my town.
https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/11/05/new-information-texas-shooter/ (https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/11/05/new-information-texas-shooter/)
Why am I not surprised?
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F!!!! this bleep is from my town.
Maybe. His name seems to be Kelly and not Kelley. That he was a Muslim convert seems to be dying out. That he was with Antifa hasn't been established. And so on.
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/devon-patrick-kelley-texas-shooting-suspect-sutherland-springs-first-baptist-church-latest
Picture of the shooter with his muslim beard that he shaved off last week.
muslim beard? He looks like 90% of the rednecks in my area.....drunk, fat and stupid.
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That' what I've been saying. It's like something has been set in motion and somthing very wicked and feom the pits of Hell set lose. Evil like this, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas with no explaination other than a pure evil taking over troubled souls.
This is exactly what's happening.
It is demonic............................... and gun control won't do a blasted thing to stop it.
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This little town is in the midst of their annual Wurstfest and it has been kicked in the gut again, it's a very tight Community.
This was 7 Months ago on a First Baptist Community event that ended in similar depravity
[img img=300]http://texashillcountry.com/wp-content/uploads/17554484_1843133079237437_6448928394107076285_n-680x390.jpg[/img]
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Click on the image. It should enlarge it
Thanks :)
It mentions not just an agenda... but a hidden agenda.
When I first saw the church's logo on facebook... three guesses what it reminded me of...
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeHrlBQHexjqpjPTXz7XQxUAqAjQ5_GrSbvwe88FFTTzYEw5Flg4OE8pQ
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Now on Fox- shooter was court-martialed for attacking spouse and assault on his child- in the brig for a year.
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There was a bus shot up in California in the last day, 1 dead, sounded like it could have been worse, not even posted here:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-party-bus-shooting-leaves-dead-wounded-50934341
Really, quite a few of these stories.
This "party bus" sounds like the Hip Hop crowd, I heard they do this or rent limousines when they are out having a good time.
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This "party bus" sounds like the Hip Hop crowd, I heard they do this or rent limousines when they are out having a good time.
Dude. You "hear" they do this? There is no GD way you are from this country.
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By making them suffer painful deaths at the hand of a mass murderer's bullets? EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THAT CHURCH SUFFERED INJURIES. No one was spared. That kind of wholesale massacre has not been seen since Sodom!
And God did nothing.
That leaves only three possibilities: 1: The church was wholly evil; 2: God is evil; 3: There is no God.
4. God has allowed humans free will including the freedom to choose evil because He sees the ultimate outcome is worth it. Don’t forget we don’t see the whole story on this side of death. In addition God Himself became one of us and took our suffering on Himself so He is hardly aloof from us. God was very present in that Church today. He will bring His purposes to pass. Just because we do not perceive His action doesn’t mean He wasn’t there. His ways are beyond our comprehension but I know my Savior well enough to trust Him explicitly even when I don’t understand
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As @jmyrlefuller alluded to earlier
I know personally some of you have a very strong Faith in your Creator and no one respects that more than me and from this you derive the strength that carries you through these more frequent perilous times but others of us still wonder WTF is going on with all this senseless killing, especially in our backyard.
I don't want or expect an answer to my question on this Thread, it's already been addressed, but it is a valid concern of all Humankind.
*Twin Peaks Waco 5/2015
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I really hope that more churches will train their ushers to deal with characters like this, and will make sure that one or more of them is packing heat. That's the way it has been at our church for many years. It's sad, but that is the world we live in.
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We can't even walk into their mosque's with our shoes on.
Texas Churches (most) will be packing MORE heat.
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We can't even walk into their mosque's with our shoes on.
Texas Churches (most) will be packing MORE heat.
Not just Texas churches I assure you.
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Someone on Fox was talking about the chief of police of Sutherland Springs. No clue. They have the Wilson County sheriff and the Texas Rangers to investigate. Of course, the FBI showed up immediately.
Wonder if his wife was from this town?
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Someone on Fox was talking about the chief of police of Sutherland Springs. No clue. They have the Wilson County sheriff and the Texas Rangers to investigate. Of course, the FBI showed up immediately.
Wonder if his wife was from this town?
Wife is Danielle Lee Shields- I found her on FB and she is from Sutherland Springs TX and lives there currently.
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@KingsX
Another. Sept. 10
(https://i.imgur.com/9BX05Yl.png)
Still getting the hang of posting here!
On FB, it doesn't show the date of the "like". It shows the date of the post. That is why you will sometimes see an old photo or post bumped to the top. Someone has clicked the "like" button.
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It would be hard to eliminate soft targets, you can just make it harder for the shooter.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYd2kIZxk4
Interview with one of the citizens involved in stopping the carnage.
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That' what I've been saying. It's like something has been set in motion and somthing very wicked and feom the pits of Hell set lose. Evil like this, Sandy Hook, and Las Vegas with no explaination other than a pure evil taking over troubled souls.
@NavyCanDo
@musiclady
2 Timothy Chapter 3 (KJV)
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
It was a fun movie.
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I'd like to say too, @KingsX 's gentle spirit and kindness are a big plus here too.
I like @KingsX
She makes me think, which is a good thing, plus her avatar is lovely.
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I'd like to say too, @KingsX 's gentle spirit and kindness are a big plus here too.
lol
Not exactly the descriptive terms I am used to here.
I'm made in the mold of Elijah and Ezekiel.
Calling of Ezekiel
I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children,
and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
As for them, whether they listen or not - for they are a rebellious house -
they will know that a prophet has been among them.
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I like @KingsX
She makes me think, which is a good thing, plus her avatar is lovely.
You are the one with a kind and gentle spirit.
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4. God has allowed humans free will including the freedom to choose evil because He sees the ultimate outcome is worth it. Don’t forget we don’t see the whole story on this side of death. In addition God Himself became one of us and took our suffering on Himself so He is hardly aloof from us. God was very present in that Church today. He will bring His purposes to pass. Just because we do not perceive His action doesn’t mean He wasn’t there. His ways are beyond our comprehension but I know my Savior well enough to trust Him explicitly even when I don’t understand
Ok. Not a religious thread but my two cents. When my dad was 18 he was drafted at the end of WW II to help clean up Germany and help those people who were in a camp. He was trained as a medic.
He saw the absolute worst in humanity with those who survived that camp. The walking dead, you know? Can you imagine what that left on an 18 year old boy who never left Brooklyn except to go to see Yankees games? He'd never even been to NJ!
It would either make his faith go away, or get stronger. For him, the latter. I had some very horrible things happen to me that tested me, and I came to the opposite conclusion. I'm glad I realized my error and went back.
We all have shit thrown at us. I wish to the heavens we didn't. My heart breaks for this town and this people. Loosing a child is about the absolute worst thing that can happen to a parent. There's evil under the sun, according to the Bible.
You just have to look for the good. Sunrises, kittens, puppies, new babies, chocolate, falling in love. The smell of rain. Planets and stars. I don't understand G-d. But I'm grateful for his creations. And I've read Ecclesiastes. (Or listened to the Byrds)
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I like @KingsX
She makes me think, which is a good thing, plus her avatar is lovely.
I like the avatar too, but I can't figure the hat out.
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You are the one with a kind and gentle spirit.
There's a story behind the Cardinal. Ask her about it.
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I like the avatar too, but I can't figure the hat out.
It's a Russian hat for a Russian blue cat.
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It's a Russian hat for a Russian blue cat.
:thumbsup:
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There's a story behind the Cardinal. Ask her about it.
It's in honor of my dad. I lost him last October. I also like birds,
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There's a story behind the Cardinal. Ask her about it.
@Freya
What's the story behind the red Cardinal ?
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It's in honor of my dad. I lost him last October. I also like birds,
Sorry about your dad.
Vladimir Putin's nickname is "gray cardinal"
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Sorry about your dad.
Vladimir Putin's nickname is "gray cardinal"
Wow, I didn't know that, thank you sweetie
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@ Freya
Your Shakespeare quote: " And though she be but little she is fierce"
reminds me of a line from the movie, Legend.
" A fairy's heart beats fierce and free! "
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23231152_1504879809548581_8123294325950955326_n.jpg?oh=e5e625109af9f5db6a287b65f638ac31&oe=5AAA0A85)
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23231152_1504879809548581_8123294325950955326_n.jpg?oh=e5e625109af9f5db6a287b65f638ac31&oe=5AAA0A85)
https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
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@txradioguy
Any chance you might find anything about his court-martial?
Probably not since he was USAF...but I'll check.
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Ann Stefanek, an Air Force spokeswoman, said Kelley was discharged from the Air Force for allegedly assaulting his spouse and child.
She said he served 12 months' confinement after a 2012 court-martial and ultimately received a bad conduct discharge and reduction in rank.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/06/devin-kelley-texas-church-gunman-kicked-air-force-domestic-violence/
Seems like if he was convicted, it’s no longer ‘alleged.’ Domestic violence and dishonorable discharge. That’s two strikes on a background check for purchase. He either:
1 - Purchased the weapon before the legal troubles.
2 - Lied on his application and the system failed.
3 - Stole the weapon.
4 - Had someone purchase it for him.
5 - Purchased it in a private sale.
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https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
There is a You Tube video, which consists of some unidentified narrator claiming he has "proof." But none of his "proof" proves anything.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,289773.msg1506360.html#new
Didn't take long for the conspiracy theorists to spread their BS. Bottom line is we don't know anything for sure.
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There is a You Tube video, which consists of some unidentified narrator claiming he has "proof." But none of his "proof" proves anything.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,289773.msg1506360.html#new
Didn't take long for the conspiracy theorists to spread their BS. Bottom line is we don't know anything for sure.
And we probably won't know for a few days.
Ugh I hate conspiracy theorist BS with a passion.
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8 people killed were in the same family, breaking, CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html
Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, how could it get worse? 888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty
I'm crying too, kitteh.
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https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
Snopes is about as accurate as Bette Midler.
However, it is funny to see the knots they tie themselves into trying to deny that he is Antifa by saying there aren't enough facts to say that he is and that it's a common to claim bad guys belong to Antifa.
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This one picture really represents who this community is:
(http://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/171105195446-14-sutherland-springs-church-shooting-exlarge-169.jpg)
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Whether the guy was a real Antifa member or not, the fact remains he was an atheist who slaughtered Christians. The leftists won't be able to get around that.
The myth that leftists like to propagate is that of the psychotic religious nut fondling a gun waiting for the chance to shoot peace and people-loving leftists and minorities.
They couldn't wait to exploit the Charlottesville alt righter who ran down people as typical of all right wingers.
It seems there are far more violent crazies on the left side of the political spectrum than the right side.
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4. God has allowed humans free will including the freedom to choose evil because He sees the ultimate outcome is worth it. Don’t forget we don’t see the whole story on this side of death. In addition God Himself became one of us and took our suffering on Himself so He is hardly aloof from us. God was very present in that Church today. He will bring His purposes to pass. Just because we do not perceive His action doesn’t mean He wasn’t there. His ways are beyond our comprehension but I know my Savior well enough to trust Him explicitly even when I don’t understand
While i completely agree with what you say, it should be pointed out that the original premise is false - "And God did nothing"
God is always doing something. Right now, He is revealing Himself more than ever before to some lukewarm believers while bringing strength to the church. He is also revealing the spiritual war at hand, and showing once again that satan loses in the end.
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This one picture really represents who this community is:
What a touching photo. Makes one want to go down there and just hold people. Our immediate response to tragedy always seems to be to throw money at the survivors, but I would guess they just need comfort right now.
Amen, Ben Shapiro: Ben ShapiroVerified account @benshapiro 10h10 hours ago
People are massacred at a church and the hard core left's first reaction is to insult prayer? Solid thinking, guys.
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Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus-
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Atheist liberals seem to forget that there a a large number of liberal Christians, especially in the African American community. So insulting prayer is cursing at the very people they want to side with them.
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From Vegas to NYC, Thornton Colorado and now this, it's really too much in a one month time-period or more precisely, in just over a month's time period. Rather unbelievable. The excuses from having a mental illness to possible drug use and on and on, are getting tired as well. For all we know, we could have some other tragedy in the week to come.
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Snopes is about as accurate as Bette Midler.
Perhaps
But I haven't seen any proof as of now he was ANTIFA
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Perhaps
But I haven't seen any proof as of now he was ANTIFA
I am curious if anyone of value actually said he was AntiFa. I just saw the usual social media chatter.
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Story says the former inlaws of suspect attended church from time to time. See 7:45.
https://apnews.com/149034eeb9f847749f2b8b6148b193da/Sheriff-says-gunman's-ex-in-laws-sometimes-attended-services
Motive?
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I'll bet he's a loner-type.
---------
Additional comment, even with these tragedies, America's murder rate has been coming down. I'm not sure how to put that in perspective.
Though, 2016 saw a spike in the rate, 2017 may be the same. The general trend nevertheless, is downward. We get caught up in these kinds of stories which we probably should.
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Story says the former inlaws of suspect attended church from time to time. See 7:45.
https://apnews.com/149034eeb9f847749f2b8b6148b193da/Sheriff-says-gunman's-ex-in-laws-sometimes-attended-services
Motive?
I was thinking along the same lines. Apparently his (ex) wife still lives in the community.
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I was thinking along the same lines. Apparently his (ex) wife still lives in the community.
Ex-Wife and her mother is what I'm hearing.
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Ex-Wife and her mother is what I'm hearing.
He might have been hoping to catch them in church. I wonder if his alleged atheism and maybe her church attendance were a factor?
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Ex-Wife and her mother is what I'm hearing.
Ex wife. Would assume the child is with the mom. If he thought they would be in church that day, what monster would murder his baby?
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He might have been hoping to catch them in church. I wonder if his alleged atheism and maybe her church attendance were a factor?
I would say it had to have been a factor at some point but I know nothing for sure.
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HERO Describes Chasing Down Texas Church Shooter
http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/06/watch-hero-describes-chasing-down-texas-church-shooter/
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Ex wife. Would assume the child is with the mom. If he thought they would be in church that day, what monster would murder his baby?
What monster would cut loose on a congregation? That boy wasn't wired right.
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What monster would cut loose on a congregation? That boy wasn't wired right.
He was a rabid atheist. Hated church folk. Thought they were stupid.
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What monster would cut loose on a congregation?
Smackwater Jack?
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'Ryland is the only one left': Boy, 5, is found clinging to life among the pews
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053675/Family-loses-three-members-Texas-church-massacre.html
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https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/
In case people don't want to click...
CLAIM
The perpetrator of the Sutherland Springs shooting carried an Antifa flag and told churchgoers “this is a communist revolution.”
RATING
(https://www.snopes.com/content/themes/snopes/dist/images/det-false.gif) FALSE
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Perhaps
But I haven't seen any proof as of now he was ANTIFA
Agreed.
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In case people don't want to click...
Snopes is great at refuting claims no one has made.
They could have just as easily 'fact checked' the rumor that this creep was a rabid atheist. TRUE
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The man who faced of with the shooter and shot him.
(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/171106-second-texas-hero-feature.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1)
Stephen Willeford
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He was a rabid atheist. Hated church folk. Thought they were stupid.
Well – he has his answer now. In his last moments, he either found himself fading into an infinite, cold void or facing judgment. Either way, good riddance.
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In case people don't want to click...
CLAIM
The perpetrator of the Sutherland Springs shooting carried an Antifa flag and told churchgoers “this is a communist revolution.”
RATING
FALSE
Notice the specificity of what Snopes is claiming to be "False". They're not saying he wasn't an Antifa sympathizer or member, they're saying he didn't carry an Antifa flag, and tell churchgoers "this is a communist revolution." Who would even know what he told churchgoers, except the people who were there, and so far no public comment has been made by any of them.
This "False" claim is useless, because it doesn't address whether the killer was an atheist, or a member/sympathizer of Antifa. :shrug:
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Authorities believe 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley shot himself inside his vehicle, Tackitt said.
http://www.ibtimes.com/texas-church-shooters-cause-death-how-did-devin-kelley-die-2610938
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Story says the former inlaws of suspect attended church from time to time. See 7:45.
https://apnews.com/149034eeb9f847749f2b8b6148b193da/Sheriff-says-gunman's-ex-in-laws-sometimes-attended-services
Motive?
I posted last night that his wife was from Sutherland Springs.
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Whether the guy was a real Antifa member or not, the fact remains he was an atheist who slaughtered Christians. The leftists won't be able to get around that.
Where do you get that "fact," @goatprairie? Did I miss it on the thread?
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I posted last night that his wife was from Sutherland Springs.
I think that @Freya was making the point that he may have been looking for them at church. It may also be that he somehow blamed any religious incompatibility between the ex and himself, possibly a factor in the divorce, on the church and sought to take his anger out there. It is speculation, but at least grounded in what appear to be facts: He was (past tense) married, his past includes domestic violence, his ex and her folks attended church there, his ex and her folks lived there.
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Where do you get that "fact," @goatprairie? Did I miss it on the thread?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html
http://drudgereport.com/
I'll just post links, it's up at drudge now (no, it doesn't mean it is true because it's there), still, there are millions of atheists so....
I think this guy might have been some sort of drug user and it messed his mind up, again, what this guy fits is that most (not all like Paddock) most of these mass shooters are 18-24 I'd say, Kelley was 26 years old, so a bit over that age limit but close.
And as said, there might be a domestic situation here, ex-wife, something like that.
@Suppressed
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Where do you get that "fact," @goatprairie? Did I miss it on the thread?
That he was an atheist? There's testimony to that fact all over the media today.
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Authorities believe 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley shot himself inside his vehicle, Tackitt said.
http://www.ibtimes.com/texas-church-shooters-cause-death-how-did-devin-kelley-die-2610938
Thing is, he allegedly was shot at by the bystander. Unless there was only one shot, how would the sheriff know which shot killed this guy without an autopsy? Or is the sheriff saying no one actually shot Kelley before he took off?
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In case people don't want to click...
The problem with this is the claim he was an ANTIFA member and made statements about starting a Civil War came from 4Chan. If you read 'according to 4Chan' stop right there. They are trolls. Everytime something like this happens, they create fake screesnshots, fake profiles, and make a game out of trolling and seeing how far they can pass along fake stories. All the claims he was Antifa seem to trace back to this 4Chan claim, even though the screenshots with the Antifa flag they posted are different than the other screenshots from his real profile other media posted (the ones with the gun). Unfortunately, this has been repeated so many times, it has become 'common knowledge'
I wish people would realize that if it comes from 4Chan, it is less reliable than if it came from Alex Jones channeling David Icke channeling John Titor writing for The Onion.
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Thing is, he allegedly was shot at by the bystander. Unless there was only one shot, how would the sheriff know which shot killed this guy without an autopsy? Or is the sheriff saying no one actually shot Kelley before he took off?
Apparently he was shot by the bystander. Not every wound is fatal, and even a fatal wound may take time to be that way. If there was a second shot which was an immediately lethal wound (like a head shot), he would have had to administer it himself, depending on the angle of the wound. The sheriff might be fully capable of determining this.
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Apparently he was shot by the bystander. Not every wound is fatal, and even a fatal wound may take time to be that way. If there was a second shot which was an immediately lethal wound (like a head shot), he would have had to administer it himself, depending on the angle of the wound. The sheriff might be fully capable of determining this.
They seem to be quite certain that the self-inflicted wound is what killed him, so it was probably obvious.
But as far as I'm concerned the good neighbor shooter gets all the credit for the fact that this monster is dead.
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Where do you get that "fact," @goatprairie? Did I miss it on the thread?
'SHE'S A BAD B***H' Texas church shooting – Facebook rants of ‘creepy’ gunman Devin Kelley, 26, who preached atheism before killing 26 churchgoers
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4851812/texas-church-shooting-boy-family-murdered-devin-kelley-2/
Ex-friends say shooter was ‘creepy’ atheist who berated religious people
http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/ex-friends-say-shooter-was-creepy-atheist-who-berated-religious-people/
EXCLUSIVE: 'Creepy, crazy and weird': Former classmates say Texas gunman was an 'outcast' who 'preached his atheism' online before killing 26 in the state’s worst ever mass shooting
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html#ixzz4xfCL8Y6I
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Ex wife. Would assume the child is with the mom. If he thought they would be in church that day, what monster would murder his baby?
The same kind that would get booted from the military for beating his wife and baby.
The same kind that would shoot 26 innocent people sitting in church. That kind of monster.
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They seem to be quite certain that the self-inflicted wound is what killed him, so it was probably obvious.
But as far as I'm concerned the good neighbor shooter gets all the credit for the fact that this monster is dead.
I'd agree with that. Even if the neighbor's shot wasn't fatal, it slowed the perp down a bit. Kelley was either going to be captured or he was going to take himself out. I don't see any other alternatives at that point.
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Just in case, someone brings up atheists, they don't reproduce, at least not like Christians and Muslims, that is what studies have said for those who want to speak negatively of Christianity. We'd all be bowing to Mecca without it. Think about it. Off-topic but it seems necessary to say per some views.
Heck, talk of tragedies, the early Christians were fed to lions. How ghastly can that be?
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Just in case, someone brings up atheists, they don't reproduce, at least not like Christians and Muslims, that is what studies have said for those who want to speak negatively of Christianity. We'd all be bowing to Mecca without it. Think about it. Off-topic but it seems necessary to say per some views.
Heck, talk of tragedies, the early Christians were fed to lions. How ghastly can that be?
We are told by the Left that Hate Speech leads to violence. He preached Hate Speech against Christians and then acted on that Hate. This is a classic example of what the Lefts says will happen....except it is an inconvenient example for them.
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They seem to be quite certain that the self-inflicted wound is what killed him, so it was probably obvious.
But as far as I'm concerned the good neighbor shooter gets all the credit for the fact that this monster is dead.
Yep. No doubt being shot at (and shot) cut the rampage short. Who knows what would have happened if the guy hadn't been interrupted.
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Just in case, someone brings up atheists, they don't reproduce, at least not like Christians and Muslims, that is what studies have said for those who want to speak negatively of Christianity. We'd all be bowing to Mecca without it. Think about it. Off-topic but it seems necessary to say per some views.
Heck, talk of tragedies, the early Christians were fed to lions. How ghastly can that be?
I would imagine that most Atheists remain in the 'closet'. They don't volunteer their opinion, but rather observe to their 'amusement'.
Now....back to the Program. ^-^
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Presser on now. Shooter autopsy in Travis County will show cause and manner of death, not sure if the shot from the hero neighbor or self-inflicted shot killed him. He sent threatening texts- domestic situation. Ex-mother-in-law received threats.
ATF said he should not have been allowed to purchase guns. 3 recovered -Ruger rifle, Glock 9 mm and another I didn't get.
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There is video from inside church that authorities have.
Perp seen at Valero he wore a black mask with white skull face on it- put on later, not wearing at Valero but he drew attention from the way he was dressed..
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Yep. No doubt being shot at (and shot) cut the rampage short. Who knows what would have happened if the guy hadn't been interrupted.
Most sources say the POS dropped his gun when he was fired at.
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Closing presser with a prayer. God bless this small shattered community.
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Ten injured in critical condition. Six have been treated and released.
I was Texas proud regarding the two heroes that stopped this cretin from harming more people.
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He was a rabid atheist. Hated church folk. Thought they were stupid.
@AllThatJazzZ
I'm not denying that, but I'm confused as to where the source of the claim is. Was that something he wrote on FB or what?
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Most sources say the POS dropped his gun when he was fired at.
POS called his father while fleeing saying he's been shot and might not make it. No, he wasn't going to make it because of the two heroes.
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One child died at hospital. Three more in hospital.
Bought 4 guns in last 4 years- 2 in Colorado and 2 in Texas
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Possible motive coming out of the presser is to kill his former mil who he had threatened numerous times.
They are still trying to figure out how he was able to purchase weapons in Texas and Colorado after serving time for domestic violence and given an Dishonable discharge from the USAF
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@AllThatJazzZ
I'm not denying that, but I'm confused as to where the source of the claim is. Was that something he wrote on FB or what?
There have been reports that he liked atheism on FB and talked about stupid religious people.
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Possible motive coming out of the presser is to kill his former mil who he had threatened numerous times.
They are still trying to figure out how he was able to purchase weapons in Texas and Colorado after serving time for domestic violence and given an Dishonable discharge from the USAF
You can purchase anything if you have the money; which is why gun control laws are so laughable. They don't stop someone with criminal intent.
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Wearing the black mask with white skull face is creepy.
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Most sources say the POS dropped his gun when he was fired at.
Sources I read say he dropped the rifle and switched to pistol at that point.
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Good Morning AmericaVerified account @GMA 2m2 minutes ago
NEW: Deceased victims inside TX church range from 18 months to 77 years old, Texas public safety official says
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Kelley was once a member of the US Air Force, spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said. He served in logistics readiness at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, starting in 2010.
Kelley was court-martialed in 2012 for two counts of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, assault on his spouse and assault on their child, Stefanek said. Kelley received a bad conduct discharge, confinement for 12 months and a reduction in rank, she said. The Air Force did not provide a date of the discharge.
Kelley is accused of killing 26 people, including the 14-year-old daughter of the church's pastor, and injuring more.
A man who lives next door to the church grabbed his own gun and approached Kelley as he was leaving after the shooting. The gunman dropped a rifle in front of the church and fled in his car, officials said.
Kelley was found dead in his car from a gunshot wound about eight miles from the church, according to a law enforcement official. It's not clear if he shot himself or if the neighbor shot him.
Kelley purchased the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio.
When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said.
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Kelley served in the Air Force from 2010 until 2014 and worked in the logistics readiness department at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.
He was court-martialed in 2012 on charges of assault on his spouse and on their child. He received a bad conduct discharge, confinement for 12 months and a reduction of his military status.
more info here
http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-church-shooting-random-act-violence-governor/story?id=50958603
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@AllThatJazzZ
I'm not denying that, but I'm confused as to where the source of the claim is. Was that something he wrote on FB or what?
Someone who went to high school with him said that. It was in one of the Daily Mail articles.
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Kelley was once a member of the US Air Force, spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said. He served in logistics readiness at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, starting in 2010.
Kelley was court-martialed in 2012 for two counts of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, assault on his spouse and assault on their child, Stefanek said. Kelley received a bad conduct discharge, confinement for 12 months and a reduction in rank, she said. The Air Force did not provide a date of the discharge.
Kelley is accused of killing 26 people, including the 14-year-old daughter of the church's pastor, and injuring more.
A man who lives next door to the church grabbed his own gun and approached Kelley as he was leaving after the shooting. The gunman dropped a rifle in front of the church and fled in his car, officials said.
Kelley was found dead in his car from a gunshot wound about eight miles from the church, according to a law enforcement official. It's not clear if he shot himself or if the neighbor shot him.
Kelley purchased the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio.
When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said.
Amazing to me that 24-hours later, we know more about this cretin than we do Stephen Paddock 5-weeks after the fact.
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Most sources say the POS dropped his gun when he was fired at.
Dropped the rifle. I would guess that wasn't the only firearm he had with him.
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Amazing to me that 24-hours later, we know more about this cretin than we do Stephen Paddock 5-weeks after the fact.
Interesting, isn't it? LV has dropped off the radar, almost.
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Possible motive coming out of the presser is to kill his former mil who he had threatened numerous times.
They are still trying to figure out how he was able to purchase weapons in Texas and Colorado after serving time for domestic violence and given an Dishonable discharge from the USAF
NICS should have flagged him and the purchase should have been refused. After all the howling about background checks, apparently they failed to indicate he was ineligible.
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http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358942-texas-gov-abbot-gunman-was-denied-gun-permit
Texas Gov. Abbot: Gunman was denied gun permit
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Trump is right. This is a mental health issue, not a gun issue. Gun control does nothing to prevent terrorist attacks (and yes, this is an act of terrorism). If Kelley had no firearms, he could have just as easily used knives, bombs or who knows what to inflict his carnage.
But it appears that Kelley had exhibited signs of mental illness. His alleged violence toward his wife and child would be evidence of that. So it looks like Kelley was either never diagnosed or misdiagnosed. Had he received proper treatment, he might not have shot up a church.
Still, Democrats will continue to waste time, money and effort to prevent law abiding citizens from owning firearms, but have nothing to say about the larger issue of mental health. This indicates to me that Democrats don't really care about preventing such violent terroristic acts. They just want another way for government to control oue lives.
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In a local incident here, we had a fellow that was discharged from the Navy, for drugs. (also had wife, baby)
Next he had contact with city PD 12 or 14 times, and was sentenced to 2 yrs. in prison. Got out in 6 months, a few days later brutally murdered an elderly man that knew him and tried to help him.
Three days after that, he was shot and killed by a police officer, after the man tried to assault the officer.
It was no known when the police shot him, that he had killed the man 3 days earlier. Initially there was a lot of sympathy from the "lives matter," "anti-cop" crowd for him.
Then the news came out about the murder of the other man, and crickets.
Of course the version has it he was mentally ill. I am struggling over what comes first, mental illness or chronic drugs use?
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Trump is right. This is a mental health issue, not a gun issue. Gun control does nothing to prevent terrorist attacks (and yes, this is an act of terrorism). If Kelley had no firearms, he could have just as easily used knives, bombs or who knows what to inflict his carnage.
But it appears that Kelley had exhibited signs of mental illness. His alleged violence toward his wife and child would be evidence of that. So it looks like Kelley was either never diagnosed or misdiagnosed. Had he received proper treatment, he might not have shot up a church.
Still, Democrats will continue to waste time, money and effort to prevent law abiding citizens from owning firearms, but have nothing to say about the larger issue of mental health. This indicates to me that Democrats don't really care about preventing such violent terroristic acts. They just want another way for government to control oue lives.
Mental illness and lack of character aren't the same thing. I know the psychiatry and psychology fields have worked hard to convince us of that, it's not so.
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Amazing to me that 24-hours later, we know more about this cretin than we do Stephen Paddock 5-weeks after the fact.
I hate to be a contrarian (OK, I really don't hate to be one, it is my nature), but this really is a product of social media and the change in how much we share and expect to know about other people's lives. Just ten or so years ago, we would be hard pressed to find details of many of these people's lives. We especially wouldn't know about their demons and inner most thoughts. We've grown accustomed in a short period of time, to being able to learn vast amounts about someone from a few clicks.
Paddock until recently, would be the norm. We wouldn't know about the thoughts and motivations of a mentally ill recluse. Now, we think it is odd when someone shuns social media and doesn't broadcast to the world their real thinking. But what's more unusual, someone who does or someone who doesn't?
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http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358942-texas-gov-abbot-gunman-was-denied-gun-permit
Texas Gov. Abbot: Gunman was denied gun permit
Here comes the screaming about "Gun-Show Loopholes."
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Wearing the black mask with white skull face is creepy.
That is creepy. Just now TV news said he was dressed all in black.
I didn't know about the white skull face mask.
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Here comes the screaming about "Gun-Show Loopholes."
Except he didn’t buy it at a gun show. Somehow, he was able to purchase one through normal channels, even though he should have been disqualified.
Kelley bought the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April of 2016 from Academy Sports & Outdoors in San Antonio, CNN reports, citing a law enforcement official.
http://time.com/5011322/ruger-ar-556-rifle-texas-church-shooting/
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Except he didn’t buy it at a gun show. Somehow, he was able to purchase one through normal channels, even though he should have been disqualified.
Kelley bought the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April of 2016 from Academy Sports & Outdoors in San Antonio, CNN reports, citing a law enforcement official.
http://time.com/5011322/ruger-ar-556-rifle-texas-church-shooting/
Regardless of his discharge status, having been convicted of domestic assault is a disqualifier. He should have been flagged by NICS, and failed the check.
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Except he didn’t buy it at a gun show. Somehow, he was able to purchase one through normal channels, even though he should have been disqualified.
Kelley bought the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April of 2016 from Academy Sports & Outdoors in San Antonio, CNN reports, citing a law enforcement official.
http://time.com/5011322/ruger-ar-556-rifle-texas-church-shooting/
If that's the case, then it was likely because the 72 hour deadline lapsed. We haven't heard it yet, but we may now: "72 hours is not enough to ensure a proper vetting! We must eliminate the deadline!" so the government can drag their feet and hold up legitimate purchases for weeks (or longer).
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Regardless of his discharge status, having been convicted of domestic assault is a disqualifier. He should have been flagged by NICS, and failed the check.
Instantly. If I recall the law correctly, the attempt to purchase is against the law because he would have had to have lied on the form he filled out during the purchase, but almost nobody has ever been prosecuted for failing a NICS check.
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Reports are that it was a Bad Conduct Discharge, not Dishonorable, which might have been the equivalent of a misdemeanor.
But still, it was evidently for domestic violence, so I'd think it would prevent legal firearms purchase in Texas. Anyone know?
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Interesting, isn't it? LV has dropped off the radar, almost.
Or the left wing media just stopped pursuing any stories out of Vegas
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Regardless of his discharge status, having been convicted of domestic assault is a disqualifier. He should have been flagged by NICS, and failed the check.
Typically, the charges behind the reason for discharge are not disclosed. However, he would have lied on the form if he checked NO to the question of a domestic abuse conviction and the discharge alone is a disqualifier, if it’s dishonorable. The background check either did not work or he lied on the questionnaire. Either way, it didn’t work and it wouldn’t be the first time.
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Mental illness and lack of character aren't the same thing. I know the psychiatry and psychology fields have worked hard to convince us of that, it's not so.
I didn't say it was. Obviously, not every mentally ill person would think to shoot up a church. But for those who do, I think we should explore why and what sets them off.
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I didn't say it was. Obviously, not every mentally ill person would think to shoot up a church. But for those who do, I think we should explore why and what sets them off.
Why are you tossing "mental illness" out there? There is no indication that he was mentally ill.
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Instantly. If I recall the law correctly, the attempt to purchase is against the law because he would have had to have lied on the form he fulled out during the purchase, but almost nobody has ever been prosecuted for failing a NICS check.
The way the checks go, all one would need to do is lie on the 4473 form and just change out a number in your DL# you provide and hope the Academy clerk doesn't look too closely when verifying your ID. A different number won't pull up a red flag and it is passed.
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Someone who went to high school with him said that. It was in one of the Daily Mail articles.
@Sanguine
But recently, he was posting pro-Christian stuff, no?
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Reports are that it was a Bad Conduct Discharge, not Dishonorable, which might have been the equivalent of a misdemeanor.
But still, it was evidently for domestic violence, so I'd think it would prevent legal firearms purchase in Texas. Anyone know?
The Lautenberg Amendment: The act bans shipment, transport, ownership, and use of guns or ammunition by individuals convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, or who are under a restraining (protection) order for domestic abuse that falls within the criteria set by 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8). The 1968 Gun Control Act and subsequent amendments had previously prohibited anyone convicted of a felony and anyone subject to a domestic violence protective order from possessing a firearm. The act also makes it unlawful to knowingly sell or give a firearm or ammunition to such persons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban)
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Typically, the charges behind the reason for discharge are not disclosed. However, he would have lied on the form if he checked NO to the question of a domestic abuse conviction and the discharge alone is a disqualifier, if it’s dishonorable. The background check either did not work or he lied on the questionnaire. Either way, it didn’t work and it wouldn’t be the first time.
The guy did a year "in confinement" before being discharged for the offenses. Two charges of assault, one for the wife, one for the child.
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Why are you tossing "mental illness" out there? There is no indication that he was mentally ill.
None of us knows that tor certain, but if he did assault his wife and child and threatened his mother-in-law as has been alleged, I think those are good signs he might have been mentally ill.
I would like to know if he had sought treatment or could he have been ordered to do so after he assaulted his family. And if so, what was the diagnosis.
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The guy did a year "in confinement" before being discharged for the offenses. Two charges of assault, one for the wife, one for the child.
Yes, but it was under the UCMJ and the specific charges would not be known to the regular criminal court system. Current known information shows he had a bad conduct discharge, which is in a different category from a dishonorable one. He knows he’s guilty of a domestic charge and lied on the form.
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The Lautenberg Amendment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban)
Thanks, @Smokin Joe...that's what I was thinking. So it seems odd that they are relying on the type of discharge to say whether he was prohibited. But I guess the nature of the charge might have been something they are confirming wasn't subtly outside the scope of the federal ban.
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Thanks, @Smokin Joe...that's what I was thinking. So it seems odd that they are relying on the type of discharge to say whether he was prohibited. But I guess the nature of the charge might have been something they are confirming wasn't subtly outside the scope of the federal ban.
If that's the case, then there is the loophole. It isn't because of gun shows.
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@Sanguine
But recently, he was posting pro-Christian stuff, no?
You tell us.
He showed no obvious signs of mental illness so I don't think it wise to jump to that conclusion just yet. He was evil.
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Thanks, @Smokin Joe...that's what I was thinking. So it seems odd that they are relying on the type of discharge to say whether he was prohibited. But I guess the nature of the charge might have been something they are confirming wasn't subtly outside the scope of the federal ban.
Sounds to me like there is no communication between the two Justice systems. That would not surprise me, and should be the focus of any changes.
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Because I don't want to re-ignite a religious debate, I'll just leave this link for anyone who might be interested: Why church shootings don’t intimidate the Church, (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/06/why-church-shootings-dont-intimidate-the-church/?utm_term=.a10dc1552038) from Washington Post.
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If that's the case, then there is the loophole. It isn't because of gun shows.
I think the loophole is in how you identify yourself. Drivers license # is an obvious answer. I have to go through background checks and they want everything. But if you have money, you can get anything.
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The gunman who shot and killed at least 26 people inside a Sutherland Springs church on Sunday had previously worked at Schlitterbahn in New Braunfels, a job that required him to pass a criminal background check.
As local, state and federal officials search for the reason Devin P. Kelley, 26, now deceased, walked into the First Baptist Church, about 35 miles southeast of San Antonio, and began shooting, they are also piecing together who the killer was.
Kelley was employed at the Summit Vacation and RV Resort in New Braunfels at the time of the shooting, said manager Claudia Varjabedian. She said he did "security work" and was hired about a month and a half ago.
A background check was run on Kelley before he started working at the resort and "nothing negative showed up on him," Varjabedian said, adding no one ever complained about him.
She said Kelley left work Saturday "saying he had a headache," and then did not show up for his shift Sunday. Varjabedian declined to comment further.
Kelley also spent five and a half weeks working as a nighttime security guard at Schlitterbahn New Braunfels beginning in June, said Winter Prosapio, spokeswoman for the Central Texas water park.
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Because I don't want to re-ignite a religious debate, I'll just leave this link for anyone who might be interested: Why church shootings don’t intimidate the Church, (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/06/why-church-shootings-dont-intimidate-the-church/?utm_term=.a10dc1552038) from Washington Post.
Thanks for posting it. It's a good article.
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I think the loophole is in how you identify yourself. Drivers license # is an obvious answer. I have to go through background checks and they want everything. But if you have money, you can get anything.
I have a CCW permit, and in this state, that serves as a background check. The dealers I have bought from run NICS anyway, in case something happened since the CCW permit was issued.
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Sounds to me like there is no communication between the two Justice systems. That would not surprise me, and should be the focus of any changes.
That’s government bureaucracy for you…
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Kelley was shot by a good Samaritan which left him in bad or unknown condition but may have administered the lethal shot to himself.
Texas church gunman Devin Patrick Kelley was armed with three guns and had argued with his mother-in-law before the rampage, officials say.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41892838
So, we heard about his ex-in-laws but maybe he had an argument right before this incident.
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Texas shooter may have been motivated to kill by domestic situation-NPR
(This just came in as an Apple alert on my iPhone)
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/06/562299408/texas-church-shooter-may-have-been-motivated-to-kill-by-domestic-situation?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20171106&utm_campaign=breakingnews&utm_term=nprnews
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Kelley was shot by a good Samaritan which left him in bad or unknown condition but may have administered the lethal shot to himself.
So, we heard about his ex-in-laws but maybe he had an argument right before this incident.
Custody, visitation, and child support are common bones of contention. Not sure whether he went looking for them in church, or if somehow he blamed the church or the congregation. Hard to say without more information.
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@Sanguine
But recently, he was posting pro-Christian stuff, no?
I haven't seen anything like that, so I can't say one way or the other.
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@Sanguine
But recently, he was posting pro-Christian stuff, no?
@Suppressed Where have you seen that?
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I made the sad mistake of asking my Dentist this morning if he had possibly been a patient of hers, her voice quivered and her eyes watered up, she last saw him when he was 16yo. Small town.
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None of us knows that tor certain, but if he did assault his wife and child and threatened his mother-in-law as has been alleged, I think those are good signs he might have been mentally ill.
I would like to know if he had sought treatment or could he have been ordered to do so after he assaulted his family. And if so, what was the diagnosis.
I disagree. Meanness isn't a mental illness. Violence isn't correlated with mental illness.
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Some reports I have seen have HIM actually teaching Bible Study in a Baptist Church, as his wife did. His place of residence is way out in the country where there are many actual deer leases and lots of shooting all the time, pretty isolated.
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If he was convicted of domestic abuse in the military the Lautenberg Act would prohibit him from even carrying a weapon in the military much less be able to purchase one legally as a civilian.
Being found guilty of domestic abuse in the military will get you a bad conduct discharge 100%of the time.
Military and civilian courts do communicate and cooperate to a point. But there are different punishments and different levels of "reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of the evidence" that are used in the two different legal systems.
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Kelley bought the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April of 2016 from Academy Sports & Outdoors in San Antonio, CNN reports, citing a law enforcement official.
So basically, the Obama administration dropped the ball.
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If he was convicted of domestic abuse in the military the Lautenberg Act would prohibit him from even carrying a weapon in the military much less be able to purchase one legally as a civilian.
Being found guilty of domestic abuse in the military will get you a bad conduct discharge 100%of the time.
Military and civilian courts do communicate and cooperate to a point. But there are different punishments and different levels of "reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of the evidence" that are used in the two different legal systems.
In a logical world, both court systems should be reporting Lautenberg violations to NICS, right? (For the record, I don't like the Lautenberg Amendment)
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Being found guilty of domestic abuse in the military will get you a bad conduct discharge 100%of the time.
Having served a year in military prison, it is clear he was convicted of something.
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The way the checks go, all one would need to do is lie on the 4473 form and just change out a number in your DL# you provide and hope the Academy clerk doesn't look too closely when verifying your ID. A different number won't pull up a red flag and it is passed.
Easy enough to do. Easy enough to miss. My wife got a call from animal control last week that they had a Yorkie and the tag number came up as it being our dog. They had transposed the last two numbers on the tag. They seemed at a loss as to what to do. Why don't you call the people you have as the owners with the tag numbers of our dog???? And fix your clerical error.
@Smokin Joe
States, even counties, are notorious for their lack of information sharing. To show up on NCIS, you have to be in that system. States don't put everyone into the national database. So he may have been shut down in Texas because he is in their system. But if he wasn't put into the national database by Texas, Colorado, or NCIS, wouldn't have a clue.
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@Suppressed Where have you seen that?
Looks like I misread things.
Sutherland Springs Church Shooting: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know (https://heavy.com/news/2017/11/sutherland-springs-active-shooter-shooting-texas-church/)
Devin Kelley’s LinkedIn page says that he was a VBS “teacher aid (sic)” for “VBS AT KINGSVILLE FBC” and notes, “Dates volunteered Jun 2013 – Jun 2013 Volunteer duration 1 mo. Cause Children. Teaching children ages 4-6 at vocational bible schools helping their minds grow and prosper.”
So I guess that's a bit older...2013. The FB like for "Atheism" might indicate a change from then.
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Easy enough to do. Easy enough to miss. My wife got a call from animal control last week that they had a Yorkie and the tag number came up as it being our dog. They had transposed the last two numbers on the tag. They seemed at a loss as to what to do. Why don't you call the people you have as the owners with the tag numbers of our dog???? And fix your clerical error.
@Smokin Joe
States, even counties, are notorious for their lack of information sharing. To show up on NCIS, you have to be in that system. States don't put everyone into the national database. So he may have been shut down in Texas because he is in their system. But if he wasn't put into the national database by Texas, Colorado, or NCIS, wouldn't have a clue.
But, Fred, would it have been the jurisdiction of Texas or Colorado if it was prosecuted by the Air Force?
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So basically, the Obama administration dropped the ball.
Again, adding to my last post. Counties here sometimes only care about what you have been convicted of in their county. And the information doesn't go any further.
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In a logical world, both court systems should be reporting Lautenberg violations to NICS, right? (For the record, I don't like the Lautenberg Amendment)
In some cases, the Lautenberg Amendment (and the state precursors) have led to some pretty severe abuse of victims. "If you're gonna get my guns taken away, b**ch, I'll make you pay!", or out of just plain anger about it. Some state studies showed that the average violence in confrontations went up after passage of those laws and laws that required police to charge someone in any domestic incident. Rather than allowing for de-escalation, it pushes things.
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But, Fred, would it have been the jurisdiction of Texas or Colorado if it was prosecuted by the Air Force?
Does the military automatically enter their information into NCIS? That is your question. And about that, I do not know.
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Texas shooter may have been motivated to kill by domestic situation-NPR
Grandmother-In-Law Of Suspect Among Texas Church Shooting Victims
November 6, 2017 11:50 AM
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS (CBSDFW/AP/CNN) – Officials say that the 26 people killed in a shooting at a small South Texas church range in age from 18 months to 77 years old, including the grandmother-in-law of the suspect. . . .
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/18-month-old-among-texas-church-shooting-victims/
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Does the military automatically enter their information into NCIS? That is your question. And about that, I do not know.
No, I don't either.
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No, I don't either.
I don't think there is much information sharing between the military branches, either. And very little between them and the other security agencies, who don't share information with each other, at the national level.
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Grandmother-In-Law Of Suspect Among Texas Church Shooting Victims
November 6, 2017 11:50 AM
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS (CBSDFW/AP/CNN) – Officials say that the 26 people killed in a shooting at a small South Texas church range in age from 18 months to 77 years old, including the grandmother-in-law of the suspect. . . .
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/18-month-old-among-texas-church-shooting-victims/
Texas Department of Public Safety Regional Director Freeman Martin said Monday that the mass shooting stemmed from a domestic situation and was not racially or religiously motivated.
The fact that it was a domestic situation doesn't exclude the possibility that it was also religiously motivated.
I don't like it when officials draw conclusions before the facts are fully presented.
This happens all the time.
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Texas church shooting suspect bought guns after checks -seller
Reuters 14 mins ago
The man accused of killing 26 people at a Texas church bought two firearms from stores operated by a sporting goods chain in 2016 and 2017 after being approved in background checks, the company, Academy Sports & Outdoors, said on Monday.
"Both sales were approved by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). We are cooperating with law enforcement as they investigate further," privately owned Academy Sports said in a statement.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/texas-church-shooting-suspect-bought-guns-after-checks-seller/ar-AAuwhvF?li=AA4ZnC&ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/texas-church-shooting-suspect-bought-guns-after-checks-seller/ar-AAuwhvF?li=AA4ZnC&ocid=ientp)
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/16/4613E3EE00000578-0-image-a-34_1509985412512.jpg)
Heartbreaking: Eight months pregnant Crystal Holcombe (center) died in the church shooting on Sunday alongside her son Greg (far left), daughters Emily and Megan. Her husband, John (far right) survived alongside two of their children. It's unclear if they are among the injured
8888crybaby
more
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5055275/Pictured-Mother-five-killed-family-members.html
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Both sales were approved by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).
'Cuz he lied on the form?
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No, I don't either.
IIRC if you receive a Bad Conduct or Dishonorable discharge it goes into the federal system and pops up if you ever try to purchase a weapon.
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IIRC if you receive a Bad Conduct or Dishonorable discharge it goes into the federal system and pops up if you ever try to purchase a weapon.
I would think so.
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A major finding of the 9/11 Commission study was that LEO agencies had "stove piping" of data. IOW they did NOT share data.
The FBI and CIA and DIA and others, did not inform their counterparts, of vital information about dangerous people and situations.
There was much talk vowing to do better.
Now we see where 26 people may be dead, due to the same shortcoming of LEO data sharing.
I have noticed this type of shortcoming is merely taken in stride, by government employee types, including LEO.
I live near a locations where 3 different jurisdictions come together; namely city, county and state.
Officers use "field interviews," to note contact with dubious individuals. It is sort of a first warning eg. "I've noted our contact."
The bad guys benefit, since the 3 jurisdictions don't communicate with each other.
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A major finding of the 9/11 Commission study was that LEO agencies had "stove piping" of data. IOW they did NOT share data.
The FBI and CIA and DIA and others, did not inform their counterparts, of vital information about dangerous people and situations.
There was much talk vowing to do better.
Now we see where 26 people may be dead, due to the same shortcoming of LEO data sharing.
I have noticed this type of shortcoming is merely taken in stride, by government employee types, including LEO.
I live near a locations where 3 different jurisdictions come together; namely city, county and state.
Officers use "field interviews," to note contact with dubious individuals. It is sort of a first warning eg. "I've noted our contact."
The bad guys benefit, since the 3 jurisdictions don't communicate with each other.
Mrs. Liberty is from your general area (OC), and she confirms it's like that all over the state. Sheriff and City are notorious for never talking. Manson almost got away with the Tate and LaBianca murders because of it.
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Easy enough to do. Easy enough to miss. My wife got a call from animal control last week that they had a Yorkie and the tag number came up as it being our dog. They had transposed the last two numbers on the tag. They seemed at a loss as to what to do. Why don't you call the people you have as the owners with the tag numbers of our dog???? And fix your clerical error.
@Smokin Joe
States, even counties, are notorious for their lack of information sharing. To show up on NCIS, you have to be in that system. States don't put everyone into the national database. So he may have been shut down in Texas because he is in their system. But if he wasn't put into the national database by Texas, Colorado, or NCIS, wouldn't have a clue.
I think you meant National Instant Check System (NICS) rather than the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS). In this case, the information sharing would have to be between the Military and the Feds, because he was tried by a Military Court. He still might not be in a NCIS database (not sure), because he was Air Force, and iirc, they mainly cover the Navy and USMC.
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Again, adding to my last post. Counties here sometimes only care about what you have been convicted of in their county. And the information doesn't go any further.
NICS is Federal. That background check is ordinarily required.
Perhaps Texas or Colo have an 'easy out' without background check for active duty military (such as exists in some states for CCW holders who have already been background checked in order to get the permit), but he had been out of the service since before his first purchase.
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A major finding of the 9/11 Commission study was that LEO agencies had "stove piping" of data. IOW they did NOT share data.
The FBI and CIA and DIA and others, did not inform their counterparts, of vital information about dangerous people and situations.
There was much talk vowing to do better.
Now we see where 26 people may be dead, due to the same shortcoming of LEO data sharing.
I have noticed this type of shortcoming is merely taken in stride, by government employee types, including LEO.
I live near a locations where 3 different jurisdictions come together; namely city, county and state.
Officers use "field interviews," to note contact with dubious individuals. It is sort of a first warning eg. "I've noted our contact."
The bad guys benefit, since the 3 jurisdictions don't communicate with each other.
The Gorelick Memo saw to that stovepiping during the Clinton Administration, but it mainly dealt with intelligence data, iirc, and not ordinary criminal case dispositions. Had that stovepiping NOT been present (a legacy of the Clinton Administration, and quite possibly of significant benefit to them) it is possible military intelligence might have been able to compare notes with the FBI, BATF, and CIA and perhaps 9/11 could have been prevented.
Even more obscene is that Gorelick sat on the 9/11 commission, to investigate what went wrong. That was the first solid sense I had that CYA mechanisms were in place for the Clintons, and that became even more corrupt under Obama. If Trump fails to clean house, those people will be a stumbling block for every investigation, like Comey with the E-mails, and the absolute lack of anything done over Benghazi, Fast and Furious, and Now the Uranium deal.
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I disagree. Meanness isn't a mental illness. Violence isn't correlated with mental illness.
This is not a killing by a gangsta or gangsta wannabe in a big city like Chicago over turf, women or drugs. This is about a guy who maybe decided that whatever was wrong in his life was the fault of the parishioners in a church -- including the tiniest baby and the senior citizens -- and decided to slaughter them all. If that isn't mental illness, I don't know what is.
I'm old enough to remember the 50s, when such mass murders were unheard of. When I grew up, I read Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, about the 1950s slaughter of an entire family in a rural farming community by two cons. The story was shocking simply because such mass murder wasn't common back in those days.
Today we are seeing mass murder on a weekly basis. Yes, some of these are being done by jihadis who hate the west, but too many are being committed by ordinary people with no ties to violent hate groups. Why are these murders becoming so commonplace? Is there something in the water supply that is causing people to snap? Might be a good idea to find out, rather than have the Democrat knee jerk reaction of banning and confiscating all firearms.
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In a logical world, both court systems should be reporting Lautenberg violations to NICS, right? (For the record, I don't like the Lautenberg Amendment)
I didn't like Senator Lautenberg, but I can't speak ill of the dead. I never voted for him and he was mean to my favorite congressperson of all time, Millicent Fenwick.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/16/4613E3EE00000578-0-image-a-34_1509985412512.jpg)
Heartbreaking: Eight months pregnant Crystal Holcombe (center) died in the church shooting on Sunday alongside her son Greg (far left), daughters Emily and Megan. Her husband, John (far right) survived alongside two of their children. It's unclear if they are among the injured
8888crybaby
more
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5055275/Pictured-Mother-five-killed-family-members.html
If she was 8 months pregnant, that is one more life he took, imho, though I apologize to the mods because this shouldn't be on this thread. I'm just upset.
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I didn't like Senator Lautenberg, but I can't speak ill of the dead. I never voted for him and he was mean to my favorite congressperson of all time, Millicent Fenwick.
@Freya
Millicent Fenwick was awesome. I remember the National Organization of (Liberal) Women always backing her male Democrat opponent.
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If she was 8 months pregnant, that is one more life he took, imho, though I apologize to the mods because this shouldn't be on this thread. I'm just upset.
I think it fits just fine, Freya. We're upset, too, when we see stories like this one. I reckon every single person in that town is devastated, because everybody knows somebody who was cut down yesterday. Hugs!
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This evil bastard broke his stepson's skull and served a year in the brig. That was his first wife. Danielle Shields was his second wife, married in 2014. She is from Sutherland Springs, not the first wife.
He was also charged with animal cruelty in Colorado. He liked to hurt defenseless infants and puppies. Wonder if he wet the bed and started fires as a child.
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I think you meant National Instant Check System (NICS) rather than the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS). In this case, the information sharing would have to be between the Military and the Feds, because he was tried by a Military Court. He still might not be in a NCIS database (not sure), because he was Air Force, and iirc, they mainly cover the Navy and USMC.
Yes. I meant NICS.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/06/16/4613E3EE00000578-0-image-a-34_1509985412512.jpg)
Heartbreaking: Eight months pregnant Crystal Holcombe (center) died in the church shooting on Sunday alongside her son Greg (far left), daughters Emily and Megan. Her husband, John (far right) survived alongside two of their children. It's unclear if they are among the injured
8888crybaby
more
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5055275/Pictured-Mother-five-killed-family-members.html
Devastating and heartbreaking. May God help heal this town.
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This evil bastard broke his stepson's skull and served a year in the brig. That was his first wife. Danielle Shields was his second wife, married in 2014. She is from Sutherland Springs, not the first wife.
He was also charged with animal cruelty in Colorado. He liked to hurt defenseless infants and puppies. Wonder if he wet the bed and started fires as a child.
I made a comment in another thread about the puppies. I don't think he was human. Humans don't kill babies and puppies
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IIRC if you receive a Bad Conduct or Dishonorable discharge it goes into the federal system and pops up if you ever try to purchase a weapon.
@corbe
So if he passed the background check does that mean he is in the system as having a clean record, or he isn't in the system at all?
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This evil bastard broke his stepson's skull and served a year in the brig. That was his first wife. Danielle Shields was his second wife, married in 2014. She is from Sutherland Springs, not the first wife.
He was also charged with animal cruelty in Colorado. He liked to hurt defenseless infants and puppies. Wonder if he wet the bed and started fires as a child.
Unfortunately, I suspect we will see more copycat type atrocities committed by sociopaths. I think that's what we are seeing here. The guy in Las Vegas did it, and this POS followed suit.
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Unfortunately, I suspect we will see more copycat type atrocities committed by sociopaths. I think that's what we are seeing here. The guy in Las Vegas did it, and this POS followed suit.
The divide in this country is wide. A void. And people that fell through the cracks earlier are crawling back out.
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And still, 10 in critical condition. Hoping for the best for them.
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The divide in this country is wide.
And irreparable.
A people no longer having any common core principles or shared values outside of self, and in whom a large portion hate the other half - is a nation sitting in a pool of gasoline while it's people are lighting torches.
All of this we are witnessing is just the beginning of the great unraveling.
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@corbe
So if he passed the background check does that mean he is in the system as having a clean record, or he isn't in the system at all?
It's probably a "negative system." One is only in it if the record's not clean. Not there at all? Then Good to Go.
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This is not a killing by a gangsta or gangsta wannabe in a big city like Chicago over turf, women or drugs. This is about a guy who maybe decided that whatever was wrong in his life was the fault of the parishioners in a church -- including the tiniest baby and the senior citizens -- and decided to slaughter them all. If that isn't mental illness, I don't know what is.
I'm old enough to remember the 50s, when such mass murders were unheard of. When I grew up, I read Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, about the 1950s slaughter of an entire family in a rural farming community by two cons. The story was shocking simply because such mass murder wasn't common back in those days.
Today we are seeing mass murder on a weekly basis. Yes, some of these are being done by jihadis who hate the west, but too many are being committed by ordinary people with no ties to violent hate groups. Why are these murders becoming so commonplace? Is there something in the water supply that is causing people to snap? Might be a good idea to find out, rather than have the Democrat knee jerk reaction of banning and confiscating all firearms.
Philosophical polarization, dumbing down the populace, oversimplifying issues have all worked together to eliminate any middle ground. For some reason even the nearly religious three alternatives (three being deeply embedded in American culture) are being honed down to a false dichotomy of solutions, all or nothing, black or white, live or die, yes or no, you're with us or against us...
For a people saturated, even bombarded with 'information', knowledge is a distant second, and wisdom is barely out of the starting blocks.
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And irreparable.
A people no longer having any common core principles or shared values outside of self, and in whom a large portion hate the other half - is a nation sitting in a pool of gasoline while it's people are lighting torches.
All of this we are witnessing is just the beginning of the great unraveling.
Your daily affirmations need a little polishing.
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@corbe
So if he passed the background check does that mean he is in the system as having a clean record, or he isn't in the system at all?
Record Count: 4
Search By: Defendant Use Soundex: on Party Search Mode: Name Last Name: Kelley First Name: devan All All Sort By: Filed Date
Case Number
Citation Number
Defendant Info
Filed/Location
Type/Status
Charge(s)
408.1533
75906
KELLEY, DEVIN PATRICK
02/12/1991
04/29/2008
JP4
Traffic
Disposed
SPEEDING - 52 MPH/35 MPH
32008.3473
11763
KELLEY, DEVIN PATRICK
02/12/1991
10/16/2008
JP3
Traffic
Disposed
FAILURE TO STOP AT STOP SIGN
1171894
006204
KELLEY, DEVIN PATRICK
02/12/1991
09/01/2017
JP1
Citations - Traffic and Non-Traffic - Adult
Dismissed
Expired Registration
1171895
006204
KELLEY, DEVIN PATRICK
02/12/1991
09/01/2017
JP1
Citations - Traffic and Non-Traffic - Adult
Dismissed
No Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance
http://public.co.comal.tx.us/Search.aspx?ID=100 (http://public.co.comal.tx.us/Search.aspx?ID=100)
Only misdemeanor Traffic Offences (4)
*sorry for the Formatting @bigheadfred very tired today.
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He lives about 10 mile NE of New Braunfels half way to Canyon Lake from town. How strange that the County Sheriff's department pulled him over on 9/1/2017 Issued 2 tickets, case's are dismissed because they figured out he's not gonna meet his Court Date.
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NPRVerified account @NPR
NPR's @TBowmanNPR reports Kelley was able to purchase firearms because @usairforce failed to enter assault conviction in federal database.
4:59 PM - 6 Nov 2017
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He lives about 10 mile NE of New Braunfels half way to Canyon Lake from town. How strange that the County Sheriff's department pulled him over on 9/1/2017 Issued 2 tickets, case's are dismissed because they figured out he's not gonna meet his Court Date.
Or, he didn't need a court date because they were paperwork violations, and he just showed up at the court to show the proofs of compliance? I don't know TX law on this....
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NPRVerified account @NPR
NPR's @TBowmanNPR reports Kelley was able to purchase firearms because @usairforce failed to enter assault conviction in federal database.
4:59 PM - 6 Nov 2017
That seems to be the most likely SNAFU.
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NPRVerified account @NPR
NPR's @TBowmanNPR reports Kelley was able to purchase firearms because @usairforce failed to enter assault conviction in federal database.
4:59 PM - 6 Nov 2017
That answers the question we've all been asking. A damn shame. The military needs to make sure all offenders are in fact entered in the system.
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Or, he didn't need a court date because they were paperwork violations, and he just showed up at the court to show the proofs of compliance? I don't know TX law on this....
That very well could be the case @Cyber Liberty
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He's had problems since at least high school, outcast, loner not many friends, stalked x lovers, all the signs were there and tragically no one, particularly his family, got him the help he needed.
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From RetBobbyMI's post 323:
"When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said."
I would assume he still had to pass the computer background check?
Perhaps "bad discharges" from the military (which would disqualify the purchase) don't show up on them?
If not, this requires "fixing"...
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Air Force Failed To Enter Church Shooter's Domestic Violence Record In U.S. Database
Melissa Jeltsen,
HuffPost•November 06, 2017
The Air Force failed to record the Texas church shooter’s domestic violence conviction in a federal database that would have kept him from buying a gun, according a source who spoke to NPR and a leaked draft statement from the Air Force obtained by HuffPost. ...
An Air Force spokesperson reached by HuffPost confirmed that a document was leaked and that an official press release with the statement will be issued shortly. In the draft document, the Air Force said it would conduct a comprehensive review to ensure records in other cases were reported correctly. ... More from HuffPost via yahoo (https://www.yahoo.com/news/air-force-failed-enter-church-225139639.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews)
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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/air-force-mistake-kept-texas-shooters-conviction-off-background-check-database-report/article/2639807
Air Force 'mistake' kept Texas shooter's conviction off background check database: Report
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This small area of Texas has lost 39 Baptist in 7 months in 2 tragic incidents.
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@corbe
So if he passed the background check does that mean he is in the system as having a clean record, or he isn't in the system at all?
It was the Federal Government that shoved all this background check nonsense down our throats. Our protector, Big Brother, mandated that all firearm sales must go through their instant background check process. And in doing so, they took on the responsibility of ensuring that any unauthorized person would be blocked from a firearm purchase.
It is clear at this point that in April of 2016, the federal government was negligent in holding up its end of the deal. And any future federal gun control measure will have equal likelihood of failure.
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Air Force Failed To Enter Church Shooter's Domestic Violence Record In U.S. Database
Melissa Jeltsen,
HuffPost•November 06, 2017
The Air Force failed to record the Texas church shooter’s domestic violence conviction in a federal database that would have kept him from buying a gun, according a source who spoke to NPR and a leaked draft statement from the Air Force obtained by HuffPost. ...
An Air Force spokesperson reached by HuffPost confirmed that a document was leaked and that an official press release with the statement will be issued shortly. In the draft document, the Air Force said it would conduct a comprehensive review to ensure records in other cases were reported correctly. ... More from HuffPost via yahoo (https://www.yahoo.com/news/air-force-failed-enter-church-225139639.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews)
I guess one doesn't need to have a Mommy who's best buds with the Sheriff to get away with that, like that idiot in Tucson that shot the Congresswoman in the face did. He wasn't on the list, was supposed to be, and bought a gun with a bunch of 30-round 9mm magazines.
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And any future federal gun control measure will have equal likelihood of failure.
Which, incidentally, is wholly predictable - It will necessarily fail ALWAYS, regardless, as there is a robust method to obtain firearms without any interaction with papered resources whatsoever, as anyone who is in the gun culture knows as a matter of course, without even resorting to criminal elements (which is yet another vast layer of wholly uncontrollable resource).
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I guess one doesn't need to have a Mommy who's best buds with the Sheriff to get away with that, like that idiot in Tucson that shot the Congresswoman in the face killed a Conservative Federal judge did.
There. Fixed it.
Gabby Giffords is alive and well. John Roll is dead.
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There. Fixed it.
Gabby Giffords is alive and well. John Roll is dead.
She's hardly "well," she's a meat puppet for her gun-grabbing husband. But your point is well taken, a Federal Judge was murdered, a far greater tragedy.
Added: And a young girl.
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There. Fixed it.
Gabby Giffords is alive and well. John Roll is dead.
So are five other people, as a result of that shooting – including a nine-year-old girl.
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Regardless of his discharge status, having been convicted of domestic assault is a disqualifier. He should have been flagged by NICS, and failed the check.
That's true regardless of the fact that he apparently lied on the yellow sheet which is itself a felony IIRC.
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This small area of Texas has lost 39 Baptist in 7 months in 2 tragic incidents.
I remember that horrible head on collision. So awful.
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It's probably a "negative system." One is only in it if the record's not clean. Not there at all? Then Good to Go.
@corbe @Bigun @Cyber Liberty
I went looking for whether the Military has to report domestic abusers or others tried in military courts for crimes to the NICS database. Theoretically, all jurisdictions are supposed to, but efficeiency and quality of those records may vary, and mental health information reported to the NICS database is only required by 30 states, and may be hampered by HIPAA constraints if no adjudication is involved.
I did find this article, which is current: The Military Is Reporting Almost No Domestic Abusers to the Main Gun Background Check Database (https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/military-domestic-abuse-nics/)
So, even though Kelley was discharged over his domestic violence conviction: When Kelley was kicked out of the Air Force in 2014, it was through a bad conduct discharge, which on its own does not initiate a gun ban.
“The federal gun laws specifically mention a dishonorable discharge. Not bad conduct,” Baxley said.
(from link above)
He slipped through the cracks because it was not specifically a DD, and because the Military was not specifically reporting the domestic abuse cases.
My opinion of the Lautenberg Amendment is not very high. It was an ex post facto law, which makes it unconstitutional, in that it retroactively punished people whose offense predated the passage of the law. I'd wager there were a lot of people who would have pled not guilty and fought questionable convictions rather than cop a plea if they had known what was in store for them.
That said, anyone who will beat their spouse or kid isn't someone with the ideal demeanor for a gun owner, and OTOH, there are some things ginned up to provide the restraining order that evicts a guy from his home, his stuff, and his kids as the opening gambit in a nasty divorce (often with the boyfriend shacked up with her in the house he bought, with the kids, too).
Domestic situations can be complicated and emotionally supercharged, even without the complicating effects of drugs or alcohol. Yet we expect people who are raised with snowflake level crisis resolution skills to handle it. Instead, they either curl up and cry or get violent.
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Update at presser. Shooter was hit by good citizen, a barefoot former NRA instructor, twice, once in the leg and once in the torso. Shooter shot himself in the head.
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@corbe
So if he passed the background check does that mean he is in the system as having a clean record, or he isn't in the system at all?
Turns out the USAF screwed up and didn't flag him in the system when they discharged him.
http://kdvr.com/2017/11/06/officials-air-force-didnt-submit-texas-church-shooters-criminal-history-to-fbi/
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Update at presser. Shooter was hit by good citizen, a barefoot former NRA instructor, twice, once in the leg and once in the torso. Shooter shot himself in the head.
Anyone know what weapon the citizen used?
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(https://i.redd.it/jhwa8t19mewz.png)
CNN reporters right next to each other on splot screen, again.
(Actually, it looks like the guy is in front of green screen, pretending to be there.)
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Anyone know what weapon the citizen used?
Nothing I can find so far. They just keep referring to it as "his rifle".
Probably won't know until the authorities release that info at one of their pressers.
And IIRC it will remain in an evidence locker until the investigation into the shooting is officially closed.
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Turns out the USAF screwed up and didn't flag him in the system when they discharged him.
http://kdvr.com/2017/11/06/officials-air-force-didnt-submit-texas-church-shooters-criminal-history-to-fbi/
It was the point I was trying to make. I am not surprised at all.
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Nothing I can find so far. They just keep referring to it as "his rifle".
Probably won't know until the authorities release that info at one of their pressers.
And IIRC it will remain in an evidence locker until the investigation into the shooting is officially closed.
I saw somewhere he had a shotgun, but don't quote me.
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I remember that horrible head on collision. So awful.
Bus driver texting?
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Bus driver texting?
He was texting and had taken prescription medication. He was indicted for intoxication manslaughter.
https://www.ksat.com/news/leakey-man-blamed-for-fatal-church-bus-crash-indicted
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KSAT tv news interviewed survivor couple who were released from hospital. Woman shot in arm, husband hit by shrapnel. They survived by playing dead. Shooter went down the aisles, finding crying babies and shot them point blank. I wish I hadn't heard that.
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Kens5 TV San Antonio interview with a son who drove in from Houston not knowing if his mother survived. She was shot in the legs and watched the gunman kill the woman next to her, telling the woman she would go to heaven. She knew she was next and prayed to go to heaven when the neighbor hero arrived and gunman left her to deal with the plumber's AR15. She survived surgery and is still in Connelly Memorial.
These stories are so painful.
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KSAT tv news interviewed survivor couple who were released from hospital. Woman shot in arm, husband hit by shrapnel. They survived by playing dead. Shooter went down the aisles, finding crying babies and shot them point blank. I wish I hadn't heard that.
What a filthy tool of satan! Now he is spending eternity with his lord. I'm going to make an educated guess that all those in the church that morning knew the Savior. What a contrast in the destination of all those souls that departed this life in connection with this slaughter. I'm believing only one descended. The others are in the presence of their Maker. It hurts for those left behind and the wicked way they were taken from this life, but one day there will be a reunion for them of indescribable joy. No more sorrow. No more pain. No more goodbyes.
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(https://i.redd.it/jhwa8t19mewz.png)
CNN reporters right next to each other on splot screen, again.
(Actually, it looks like the guy is in front of green screen, pretending to be there.)
That shit's hysterical. "Thank you Jim for your riveting report. Hey Jane. What are experiencing on your end of the parking lot?"
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KSAT tv news interviewed survivor couple who were released from hospital. Woman shot in arm, husband hit by shrapnel. They survived by playing dead. Shooter went down the aisles, finding crying babies and shot them point blank. I wish I hadn't heard that.
Well, if that is the case, he's definitely not human. I'd like to say something else but it's not nice. So I'll be nice and say I hope he has sunscreen
now, excuse me. I'm going to be sick and cry 888cryingkitty 888cryingkitty
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Kelley must have been one sick [expletive] to deliberately shoot the babies.
I'm wondering if he was on drugs. I suppose an autopsy/toxicology tests will tell us ultimately.
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Kelley must have been one sick [expletive] to deliberately shoot the babies.
I'm wondering if he was on drugs. I suppose an autopsy/toxicology tests will tell us ultimately.
With a past of having abused his stepson (skull fracture), my bet is that he could not handle crying children, that crying set him off and he sought to silence it through more violence. Some of us hear a baby cry, we hear hunger, pain, anger, or even fear, but always the sound of someone helpless in need, not a nuisance to be beaten into submission.
Like I said before, that boy wasn't wired right.
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On a defensive carry forum I visit quite often, there was once a thread topic of carying in church. People on both sides of that question, even among gun owners on that forum. I think the argument has been settled. The shooter may have been stopped earlier if bullets was coming his way. Thank God for the neaghbor who heard the shooting, and grabbed his own gun, shooting this monster twice. He may have been on his way to another church for all we know.
OH, and I do carry in church. So does the wife.
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Kens5 TV San Antonio interview with a son who drove in from Houston not knowing if his mother survived. She was shot in the legs and watched the gunman kill the woman next to her, telling the woman she would go to heaven. She knew she was next and prayed to go to heaven when the neighbor hero arrived and gunman left her to deal with the plumber's AR15. She survived surgery and is still in Connelly Memorial.
These stories are so painful.
That actually makes me feel a tiny bit better. One man, with no shoes and a gun, stopped the POS and this lady is still alive. Tiny sliver of light there.
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OH, and I do carry in church. So does the wife.
I do, too, and Mr. M says he will start. Of course, no one at church knows what's in my purse.
The pastor of the church in Colorado where a gunman attacked a few years ago has written a piece for FOX explaining why he doesn't want congregants to carry, but his church has hired armed protectors. I think it probably is more applicable to the megachurch setting than this little church in Texas or the church we attend in rural Pa.Pastor: Our church had a deadly shooting, too. Here's how we have made it safe
By Brady Boyd
Ten years ago, the church where I pastor, New Life Church, suffered through its darkest day when a gunman came on our property, opened fire with an assault rifle, killing two of our teenage girls, injuring others, before taking his life in the hallway. This Sunday, I was taking a special guest to our memorial site to tell her the miracle story of our healing, when the news broke that another church in South Texas had just experienced the same horror.
A military trained man with an assault rifle with the intent to kill unarmed people is almost impossible to stop. No amount of training could have prepared that tiny church in Texas for this evil. We’re now living in a violent society where even small-town America and small rural churches are not safe. ...
We live in a state that allows most people to carry concealed weapons and to carry openly if they choose. We discourage our members from bringing guns into the church. In fact, if we know someone has a weapon, we escort them out to their car and watch them put it away. We have plenty of trained and qualified people who are appropriately armed, so extra weapons are not necessary and can actually cause more harm should there be a violent episode. ...
Excerpted; click on link (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/06/pastor-our-church-had-deadly-shooting-too-heres-how-have-made-it-safe.html) for full article.
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One man, with no shoes and a gun...
That man had his priorities right.
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Mother killed shielding her four children in Texas church shooting
Reuters Angela Moon 12 hrs ago
Joann Ward pushed her 9-year-old daughter Rihanna to the floor when a gunman sprayed shots inside First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, then embraced her three other children, according to an account of her response shared by a family friend on Facebook.
“I didn’t get shot because I was hiding, and Momma covered Emily, Ryland & Brooke," Rihanna recounted, according to the post by the family friend, Vonda Greek Smith.
Continued at: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/mother-killed-shielding-her-four-children-in-texas-church-shooting/ar-AAuwrOx?li=BBnb7Kz&item=personalization_enabled:false&OCID=ansmsnnews11
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The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front. The gunman had a semi-automatic, a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.
There are, in some cities, dozens and dozens of churches and it appears to be actually, hundreds and hundreds in metropolises. So, it will be up to each individual church to decide on security.
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Of course, I wouldn't object to it but I'd hate nonetheless, to see metal detectors in a house of worship.
I guess, Jews "might" have had to deal with this for some time though, if I may say that. They've probably had to face this as a threat at least. One could see how they handle this. We lived near such a temple but our town was pretty quiet. One wouldn't think about this. Perhaps this is mainly an issue in Israel and some large US cities, perhaps.
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@TomSea
Our main Catholic Priest was an Army sniper - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe. Our other Priest was a marine - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe. I have to believe they are protecting Christ's people.
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Of course, I wouldn't object to it but I'd hate nonetheless, to see metal detectors in a house of worship.
Do you believe this guy would have stopped and turned around because of metal detector at the doorway?
All that would do is assure people could not defend themselves and prevent the congregation from reducing the number of lives taken by a madman.
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The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front. The gunman had a semi-automatic, a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.
There are, in some cities, dozens and dozens of churches and it appears to be actually, hundreds and hundreds in metropolises. So, it will be up to each individual church to decide on security.
Let's dispel some of the myths there.
The gunman entered the front of the church, not the rear. For decent security, you'd need people in the front and back.
Semiautomatics are like internal combustion engines. They come in different sizes. It might be a .22, it might be a .50BMG. The caliber is what determines what damage an individual round will do. In this case he had an AR type 5.56mm (.223) rifle. Standard magazine capacities for that rifle are 30 or 20 rounds. Potent enough, but many concealed carriers carry .45 semiautomatic pistols, another potent and battle proven round. What tips the balance in favor of the shooter is the body armor, forcing any defender to shoot for the legs, a gap in the armor (usually at the sides or shoulder/armpit), or to try for a head shot. The latter two are not easy to hit on a dynamic but nonthreatening target under ordinary circumstances, harder still when the target shoots back.
Even though body armor prevents penetration, without a trauma plate, the impact is still felt, there is still energy transfer. A couple of shooters in the front, engaging at center of mass would have made his day more miserable and impacted his effectiveness, as well as his torso. While those impacts would likely have left only bruises, they would have messed up his control of the situation, and possibly given the defensive shooters time to get that head shot.
When I was a kid, shooting up a house of worship--regardless of which religion--was just considered an especially vile thing to do, real barbarian stuff. But we were a more moral society then, and even the criminal element generally acknowledged that there were some things you just didn't do. Not so any more, apparently.
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3 of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in US history happened in the last 18 months — here's the full list
Hilary Brueck and Skye Gould
(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5a00b43958a0c1184d8b643b-1201/bi-graphicsdeadliest%20mass%20shootings%20us%201.png)
Continued at: http://www.businessinsider.com/deadliest-mass-shootings-in-us-history-2017-11
As horrible as these are, I guess what is alarming is that 3 of the shootings are like the headline says, in the past 18 months.
In the total picture, it's damnable it happens at all. I guess Columbine High School did not even make the list.
It certainly makes one wonder when the next incident could happen. It seems like it died down for awhile.
Gun laws have changed some, I'd mainly look at about the last 25 years or even less of these shootings.
It gets us all talking and it's sad any life is lost but with that said, compared to the whole US population, I don't know if it is that much.
It's like drunk driving deaths, they have come way way down; but it's still unacceptable that such DWI deaths happen but what can one do? Ban cars?
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Even though body armor prevents penetration, without a trauma plate, the impact is still felt, there is still energy transfer.
@Smokin Joe that right there is important.
Because even a "pea shooter" in the confines of a church sanctuary will momentarily stop a shooter because of the imoact of the round.
People have this misconception that "body armor" equates to bullet proof and that's just not the case...it's a misconception.
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The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front. The gunman had a semi-automatic, a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.
This is from a .380, one of the smaller pistols people will carry, with body armor protection. One or two or more hits with this at close range is going to change his ability to react and how he proceeds.
(https://tribfox40.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/promo330225864.jpg)
http://fox40.com/2017/09/20/although-his-body-armor-stopped-a-bullet-officer-was-still-left-with-huge-bruise/
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This is from a .380, one of the smaller pistols people will carry, with body armor protection. One or two or more hits with this at close range is going to change his ability to react and how he proceeds.
Even with combat body armor, it’s still gonna smack you and hurt like hell.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-UNFSZ8VKU
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Even with combat body armor, it’s still gonna smack you and hurt like hell.
Even with the shooter wearing body armor and the defenders armed with small carry pistols, it is tough to continue an attack when having the equivalent of being hit with large hammers.
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My church has chairs instead of pews. So everyone is at least armed with a chair. It makes it much harder to shoot accurately when dozens of people are throwing chairs at you.
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I think the story goes, that the church-goer who fired at Kelley at the Church, fired at Kelley through the window, so, yes, in that situation, one's concealed weapon might work. It all depends on size of church and so on. Some churches are huge, this one doesn't look like it was too big from pictures I've seen.
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I think the story goes, that the church-goer who fired at Kelley at the Church, fired at Kelley through the window, so, yes, in that situation, one's concealed weapon might work. It all depends on size of church and so on. Some churches are huge, this one doesn't look like it was too big from pictures I've seen.
A church goer fired at POS? I hadn't read that anywhere. Got a link?
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A church goer fired at POS? I hadn't read that anywhere. Got a link?
It wasn't a church goer. The person saying that is clueless.
Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.
The SOB that shot up the church was NOT engaged by someone in the church or a church member through a window.
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My church has chairs instead of pews. So everyone is at least armed with a chair. It makes it much harder to shoot accurately when dozens of people are throwing chairs at you.
Especially in The Church of Bobby Knight.
(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/vSqZTGwMuWwyD0NNx7yEQA--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD0zMDA7dz00MDA-/http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Indiana-University-Head-Coach-Bob-Knight-Throws-Chair-On-Court.gif.cf.gif)
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It wasn't a church goer. The person saying that is clueless.
Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.
The SOB that shot up the church was NOT engaged by someone in the church or a church member through a window.
Oh, OK, thanks for clearing that up.
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Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.
Hero Who Stopped Texas Gunman: I Couldn’t Have Stopped Him Without My AR-15
http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/07/hero-stopped-texas-gunman-couldnt-stopped-without-ar-15/
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Especially in The Church of Bobby Knight.
Bobby Knight throws like a girl.
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Bobby Knight throws like a girl.
Well, he is an immature child.
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For all we know, there may have been a number of church-goers who were armed. Still, this is in the top 5 of worse mass shootings in US history.
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Hero Who Stopped Texas Gunman: I Couldn’t Have Stopped Him Without My AR-15
http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/07/hero-stopped-texas-gunman-couldnt-stopped-without-ar-15/
That's right and he did it barefoot. He believes God protected him and gave him the ability to do what he did. God bless him and the young man who helped him chase the monster.
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Also, the guy left the church, he could have stayed there and kept firing away, concealed weapons may not have had that big of an impact, in fact, the Texas gun man might have gotten killed earlier because he was a coward and left and a coward because he killed himself. The good Sams may not have necessarily changed the situation.
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Presser- cell phone of shooter turned over to the FBI for analysis- will not discuss victims or Air Force screw up. Monster's Ruger being examined by ATF all indications it is semi-auto.
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Cell phone locked and can't get in yet -won't identify phone. 136 Texas Rangers working the evidence-well trained in crime scene analysis.
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$6500 available from crime victim's fund for burial. Someone is donating all the caskets.
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Will not say why perp was denied a carry permit- protected information. No accomplices found.
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Also, the guy left the church, he could have stayed there and kept firing away, concealed weapons may not have had that big of an impact, in fact, the Texas gun man might have gotten killed earlier because he was a coward and left and a coward because he killed himself. The good Sams may not have necessarily changed the situation.
Wrong- the killer stopped to engage the hero neighbor and it is known he saved lives.
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Leftist media asking if he used a bump stock- he did not.
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That's right and he did it barefoot. He believes God protected him and gave him the ability to do what he did. God bless him and the young man who helped him chase the monster.
God protected him, but not the people in the church? Not to run back to this again, but these kinds of statements are what really raise a lot of disturbing questions.
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God protected him, but not the people in the church? Not to run back to this again, but these kinds of statements are what really raise a lot of disturbing questions.
@jmyrlefuller
You say 'Not to run back to this" and then you do. Please don't.
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God protected him, but not the people in the church? Not to run back to this again, but these kinds of statements are what really raise a lot of disturbing questions.
The shooter unloaded 15 magazines inside the church. How many people inside survived?
God is not a micro-manager. Perhaps your expectations are a bit out of whack. Maybe you should consider finding out who God really is.
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Thanks for all the added information @austingirl
I know there is a Go Fund Me site for the man who is burying 8 members of his family (including his pregnant wife).
He needs extra prayer from all of us that God would comfort him.
His pain must be unbearable....
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Of course, I wouldn't object to it but I'd hate nonetheless, to see metal detectors in a house of worship.
I guess, Jews "might" have had to deal with this for some time though, if I may say that. They've probably had to face this as a threat at least. One could see how they handle this. We lived near such a temple but our town was pretty quiet. One wouldn't think about this. Perhaps this is mainly an issue in Israel and some large US cities, perhaps.
In my town both the Sanctuary and the Temple have 24/7 armed security plus additional armed personnel inside during services. Discretely armed. The school has large grounds with multiple perimeters where beautiful shrubs and plantings hide the fences (mostly), sensors between fences, security gates both manned and the road winds and twists thru multiple gates before it reaches the buildings.
Pretty sad that this has to be so in the US.
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Survivors of Texas church massacre say gunman shot babies at point-blank range
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/survivors-of-texas-church-massacre-say-gunman-shot-babies-at-point-blank-range/article/2639892
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It's important for us to remember that Jesus said that Satan was the ruler of this world. When evil happens, it's not because God is absent but because Satan is the ruler here. For we Christians, Satan can kill the body but not the spirit.
The instances in the Bible where God made His presence known are few and far between. Sometimes, those instances weren't very pleasant. The murals in the nursery show the animals getting into the ark, not the people drowning.
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@TomSea
Our main Catholic Priest was an Army sniper - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe. Our other Priest was a marine - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe. I have to believe they are protecting Christ's people.
The pastor of my last church was an Army Ranger, and his Ranger stories would often be inserted into a sermon. One story happened shortly after leaving the Army and becoming a Pastor. He was riding a bus in downtown Seattle where he confronted a very belligerent man who was harassing and trying to pick a fight with other passengers. After telling the guy to sit down and leave the passengers alone, the guy turned on him and said, “who the hell are you?” He responded, “ I’m a Pastor or an Army Ranger, which one do you want me to be?” The guy sat down and kept quite the rest of the trip.
In my current church – not a mega-church but still rather large, you bet some people carry. We even have off duty police who attend as well as a Seahawk or two during training camp.
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I said before it's too bad Kelley didn't receive any treatment for his mental health problems. Well, apparently, he was confined to a mental health facility, but he escaped.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/07/as-texas-town-mourns-details-emerge-on-gunmans-methodical-tactics-in-church-massacre/?utm_term=.5dccca804b69
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God protected him, but not the people in the church? Not to run back to this again, but these kinds of statements are what really raise a lot of disturbing questions.
God protected David when he fought Goliath, but how many Israelites died, were maimed or were taken captive by the Philistines before this epic story? As Christians we do not have a blanket of protection over us keeping our mortal selves from harm. That blanket was removed in the Garden. Our "mortal bodies" are subject to all the same pains woes and trials of living in a fallen world as non-believers. That is humility. And Jesus was a prime example of what humility is.
Now is anyone wrong in saying God protected the good guy with a Gun? Well I don't think God is up there in Heaven writing the script on how this event unfolded and ended, but we are told to Give thanks in all things and we should Thank God for this man being where he was and stopping this guy. Who knows, he may had had plans to stop at another church and kill more.
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It's important for us to remember that Jesus said that Satan was the ruler of this world. When evil happens, it's not because God is absent but because Satan is the ruler here.
That wasn't a very nice arrangement for God to set up.
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@jmyrlefuller
You say 'Not to run back to this" and then you do. Please don't.
The basic question of why does God allow evil, is pertinent dozens or hundreds of times, daily.
Drunk driving
Drug overdose
Wife beating
Child beating
Homicide
Assault and battery
....and for me, the answer is that God doesn't generally micromanage his spinning mudball, all that much on a daily basis.
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I said before it's too bad Kelley didn't receive any treatment for his mental health problems. Well, apparently, he was confined to a mental health facility, but he escaped.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/07/as-texas-town-mourns-details-emerge-on-gunmans-methodical-tactics-in-church-massacre/?utm_term=.5dccca804b69
I put up a new thread with the link from KSAT about the new info on his time at Holloman. Very disturbing that he was not known to authorities after death threats to military superiors, escape, sneaking guns onto the base. Horrible.
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@jmyrlefuller
You say 'Not to run back to this" and then you do. Please don't.
@austingirl
That's because trolling has worked for him on this thread. Just one example, reply 492. @mystery-ak gave him the go-ahead to start a religious thread regarding this event, but the hijack continues on this one. It's a PIA to filter through all the religious discussion when you're trying to get info on the actual incident. These folks obviously have a lot more time on their hands than I do.
Maybe a different thread should be started for reporting facts of the shooting and leave this one to the religious discussion. I don't really know. I'm just looking for ways to keep from having to slog through off-topic stuff to follow pertinent info.
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@austingirl
That's because trolling has worked for him on this thread. Just one example, reply 492. @mystery-ak gave him the go-ahead to start a religious thread regarding this event, but the hijack continues on this one. It's a PIA to filter through all the religious discussion when you're trying to get info on the actual incident. These folks obviously have a lot more time on their hands than I do.
Maybe a different thread should be started for reporting facts of the shooting and leave this one to the religious discussion. I don't really know. I'm just looking for ways to keep from having to slog through off-topic stuff to follow pertinent info.
Here some news about the shooter:
Officials in Comal County say the suspect in the Sutherland Springs church shooting was involved in an alleged sexual assault four years ago. Link on the thread about his escape from a mental health facility in 2012.
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That wasn't a very nice arrangement for God to set up.
When you get to be God, you can set up a different one.
Man wanted Free Will which set up the current system. And we love Free Will. We love sin so much, we pretend we aren't doing it. We think our sin of Self-Righteousness is a spiritual gift. But if the idea of Satan having dominion bothers you, there is a way to avoid his dominion over you.
Imagine if your child said to you "I will do anything and everything humanly possible to avoid being with you". That's pretty much how we treat God when it comes to dying and going to Heaven.
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Maybe a different thread should be started for reporting facts of the shooting and leave this one to the religious discussion. I don't really know. I'm just looking for ways to keep from having to slog through off-topic stuff to follow pertinent info.
Is that you, Lucianne? :laugh:
Each new breaking news item should be its own thread.
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Cell phone locked and can't get in yet -won't identify phone. 136 Texas Rangers working the evidence-well trained in crime scene analysis.
If it's Apple, then the Texas Rangers can consult the Chinese government since Apple had no problem providing them the encryption code as part of the deal to sell I-phones in the PRC.
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Here some news about the shooter:
Officials in Comal County say the suspect in the Sutherland Springs church shooting was involved in an alleged sexual assault four years ago. Link on the thread about his escape from a mental health facility in 2012.
That is not being reported Locally at all, thanks for the update @austingirl
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Here some news about the shooter:
Officials in Comal County say the suspect in the Sutherland Springs church shooting was involved in an alleged sexual assault four years ago. Link on the thread about his escape from a mental health facility in 2012.
I remember that headline:
NUT BOLTS AND SCREWS
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Imagine if your child said to you "I will do anything and everything humanly possible to avoid being with you". That's pretty much how we treat God when it comes to dying and going to Heaven.
Exactly why early Christians welcomed death, preferring to be with their Lord than here in a temporal existence. This got so popular, it culminated in the rise of the Donatists. But the Church didn't like that and changed the rules a few centuries later.
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I remember that headline:
NUT BOLTS AND SCREWS
:facepalm2:
(https://i.redditmedia.com/kJ1QxW33OcziU0T-CiA3B6H3l_SxaT94QISZB3nZBOM.jpg?w=781&s=9ded722d6f092d2240b2e3ee7ab3548c)
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Thanks for all the added information @austingirl
I know there is a Go Fund Me site for the man who is burying 8 members of his family (including his pregnant wife).
He needs extra prayer from all of us that God would comfort him.
His pain must be unbearable....
One of my daughter's best friends is from Sutherland Springs and it is her mom's family that lost so many. They are devastated.
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One of my daughter's best friends is from Sutherland Springs and it is her mom's family that lost so many. They are devastated.
So sorry. This will touch so many. 8888crybaby
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Local news says one of the victims was a native of Western PA. He and his wife were both killed.
Yes, this will touch a lot of people.
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None of us knows that tor certain, but if he did assault his wife and child and threatened his mother-in-law as has been alleged, I think those are good signs he might have been mentally ill.
I would like to know if he had sought treatment or could he have been ordered to do so after he assaulted his family. And if so, what was the diagnosis.
@Applewood, I stand corrected. Looks like he was diagnosed with something.
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So sorry. This will touch so many. 8888crybaby
My wife is from a town of such small size. She could not sleep last night as she was trying to imagine what it would be like to lose so many at one time from such a small town.
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One of my daughter's best friends is from Sutherland Springs and it is her mom's family that lost so many. They are devastated.
Oh, I am so sorry to hear that. If you have any contact with her, please let her know that people all over the country are praying for her, and for her family.
I cannot imagine the grief. Even with a deep faith, the human pain has to be unbearable.
They need to be lifted up by our prayers!
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@Applewood, I stand corrected. Looks like he was diagnosed with something.
In a mental health facility, but he escaped.
He's one guy who should not have been walking the streets. However, I don't know the law in other states, but around here, it's not that easy to have someone committed or to keep them confined. Wouldn't want to make it so easy that greedy relatives could have a person put away in order to confiscate his assets. But the way things are now, too many are out there who should not be. There has to be some solution in the middle.
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My church has chairs instead of pews. So everyone is at least armed with a chair. It makes it much harder to shoot accurately when dozens of people are throwing chairs at you.
Very good! Use ANYTHING to disrupt aim, ability to reload, mob the shooter during a reload.
My attitude: You're already dead. Now do something about it.
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First wife Tessa, got a divorce quickly and free after she informed court her husband was in jail (brig.) She got the TV, Xbox, $1700, and a .38 revolver. Wonder where she is.
She was supposed to get $300 a month child support- doubt if she got any of it. Correction-she was allowed to keep her $300 child support from a previous relationship.
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The basic question of why does God allow evil, is pertinent dozens or hundreds of times, daily.
Drunk driving
Drug overdose
Wife beating
Child beating
Homicide
Assault and battery
....and for me, the answer is that God doesn't generally micromanage his spinning mudball, all that much on a daily basis.
The Almighty has given us the freedom to choose our path.
He has even given us the option to change paths, for better or worse.
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@austingirl
That's because trolling has worked for him on this thread. Just one example, reply 492. @mystery-ak gave him the go-ahead to start a religious thread regarding this event, but the hijack continues on this one. It's a PIA to filter through all the religious discussion when you're trying to get info on the actual incident. These folks obviously have a lot more time on their hands than I do.
Maybe a different thread should be started for reporting facts of the shooting and leave this one to the religious discussion. I don't really know. I'm just looking for ways to keep from having to slog through off-topic stuff to follow pertinent info.
I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Sorry I even brought it up.
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I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Do not mistake our calm for being numb. Rather, I believe what you are seeing is simply faith. These people will suffer no more, they were at worship, in the house of The Almighty, and had come there of their own will to worship Him.
You forget Hamlet:Now might I do it pat, now he is praying;
And now I'll do't. And so he goes to heaven;
Hamlet seeking to revenge his father's murder, relented, rather than send his murderous stepfather into the next life with prayers on his lips. Instead, he resolved to kill him later, in the midst of his many sins, when he'd go to Hell, instead.He took my father grossly, full of bread;
With all his crimes broad blown, as flush as May;
And how his audit stands who knows save heaven?
But in our circumstance and course of thought,
'Tis heavy with him:and am I then revenged,
To take him in the purging of his soul,
When he is fit and season'd for his passage?
No!Up, sword; and know thou a more horrid hent:
When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage,
Or in the incestuous pleasure of his bed;
At gaming, swearing, or about some act
That has no relish of salvation in't;
For the next life, what better time to die than in prayer, at worship, rather than some moment when something else is distracting you? The dead are in His arms. I pray the living are, too, turning to Him in their grief.
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I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Sorry I even brought it up.
This guy prayed to God, too.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nYjItMimgfs/maxresdefault.jpg)
You are asking questions based on a very very small experience with time about a God who is not bound by time.
Consider Christ's words when Lazarus was brought back to life. John 11:35 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11:35&version=NKJV)
There is a much bigger picture here.
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And I know you are not a troll, Jimmy Earle. Don't regret asking.
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I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Sorry I even brought it up.
These questions are honest from the heart and need to be asked. I will not give more religious answers on this thread but no question is wrong... you are seeking answers Maybe a thread on this would be a good idea
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I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Sorry I even brought it up.
I wish I had answers for you...I want answers too!...I have been crying for two days now and I just can't comprehend this evil....
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I wish I had answers for you...I want answers too!...I have been crying for two days now and I just can't comprehend this evil....
Myst, I believe there are things we just can't comprehend. Near as I can figure, this guy was twisted up over something with his ex and her family and maybe the church they attended. The guy had mental issues and anger issues as well, well enough documented, in retrospect.
I don't want to fully understand a person who could hurt a child intentionally, if that was the case, or who gets so lost in his anger he does not realize he is hurting others.
That said, there seem to be more people cracking under the incessant media barrage of rancor, where murder is no biggie in almost all fiction and popular 'entertainment'. Perhaps people need to revisit their personal sense of horror, to wake up to the things splattered across their living rooms every night or lauded in song, and back away to a gentler place.
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Wrong- the killer stopped to engage the hero neighbor and it is known he saved lives.
And the killer was a coward, a Jihadist would have fought to the death, Kelley took off and ran.
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I am not a troll, and I would HOPE that the years I've been here and the many posts I've made would make that clear. The subject of the thread is that people praying to God in a church were slaughtered en masse. Maybe the rest of you can numb yourselves to the deeply troubling issues this raises, but I can't, and I won't.
Sorry I even brought it up.
Don't worry about it. I've never seen you defend slavery to be called such names. *****rollingeyes*****
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Crowder talks to hero Willeford.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8
He talks about engaging Willeford in the parking lot about 9 minutes in.
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Everything That Could Possibly Go Wrong With The Gun Control Narrative Went Wrong In Texas
dailycaller
Geoffrey Ingersoll
Editor in Chief
10:03 AM 11/07/2017
[excerpt]
http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/07/everything-that-could-possibly-go-wrong-with-the-gun-control-narrative-went-wrong-in-texas/
In perhaps the most chilling instance of post-shooting hysteria, an online mob viciously attacked thought and prayer.
They attacked religion. They attacked our God-given right of self defense. The machine was in full spin. The NRA was covered in blood, they said. The church’s walls and their God did not protect them, they said.
The mob’s scorched earth would accept nothing less than a complete mea culpa, on behalf of the Christian God, the Second Amendment, and supporters of both.
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@To-Whose-Benefit?
Thank you for posting that article. It burns me up that Democrats couldn't wait until the bodies were cold before they started whining about guns. Yesterday, Dems in the House wouldn't even observe a moment of silence for the victims. They don't really care about the victims. All they care about is taking away our Second Amendment rights. More government control of our lives. But what did government do to prevent or even mitigate this tragedy? We have gun control laws in place. We are supposed to have governmental agencies sharing information so that an informed decision can be made as to whether a person should have a gun. But because government can't or won't share information, a madman with a long history of violent behavior was able to purchase firearms. So how did gun control already in place prevent this tragedy?
This is a guy who shouldn't have even been out on the street. With each violent act, he had been given a slap on the wrist. Maybe a citation, maybe minimal jail time. Why? Because each jurisdiction where Kelley's violent acts occurred never knew about his past violent history or if they did, they never considered that history. They would just look at the present case before them and give the guy the minimum punishment.
And what about that argument that we should wait for law enforcement to handle a crime? Well, Kelley had some high-powered firearms and plenty of time to mow down people with them before law enforcement could even be made aware of the carnage. A neighbor with his own firearm rushed over and engaged Kelley, but by then so many people had been killed or wounded. Perhaps had someone in that church been armed, the toll of dead or wounded would have been lessened.
But none of these knucklehead liberals see the big picture because they don't want to. They have been eager to trash the Second Amendment because, if they are ever able to rid us of our right to bear arms, it will be so much easier to take away all of our other rights as well. Everything they do is geared toward government control and dumbing down the populace to make it easier to control.
While I believe that there is little difference between Democrats and Republicans these days, the Republicans have, at least so far, defended us against the onslaught by Dems against our Second Amendment rights. But if Republicans don't get their act together and keep the promises they made to the voters, I can see them losing both houses of congress and maybe even the presidency in 2020. If that happens, you can be sure the Dems will put abolishment of the Second Amendment high n on their list of priorities and it will go through. Then you can say goodbye to your firearms and the freedoms we have long enjoyed.
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@Applewood So long as I can hold a rifle, I will own one, and I am far from alone.
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@Applewood So long as I can hold a rifle, I will own one, and I am far from alone.
:thumbsup:
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Consider Christ's words when Lazarus was brought back to life. John 11:35 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11:35&version=NKJV)
There is a much bigger picture here.
The versus "Jesus wept." is John 11:35. It happens before Lazarus is brought back to life, not afterwards.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A28-44&version=NIV
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Ironically, this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre. The problem wasn't the law - Kelley should have been in the no-purchase data base, but for human error (the military's failure to provide the information). We don't need "more laws" to address the age-old problem of garbage-in, garbage-out.
Even more ironically, the death count would have been higher had an armed citizen not been nearby to ward off the shooter before police could arrive. This is hardly a case that puts the argument for more gun control in a better light. Indeed, the liberal reaction borders on hysteria - we gotta do Something! Anything! Whether it makes sense or is efficacious (or, even worse, would positively erode the community's safety) makes no difference.
Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment. I don't own guns, and don't understand the appeal of gun culture. But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice. That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain. I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not. That is the essence of citizenship.
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Well said, Jazzhead. :beer:
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Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment. I don't own guns, and don't understand the appeal of gun culture. But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice. That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain. I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not. That is the essence of citizenship.
Well said, @Jazzhead! I'm encouraged to read that from you. Not that long ago, it seemed you were for abrogating that right for some people because of the accident of their residence in your community, but you've come to understand the right applies to others as well.
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Well said, @Jazzhead! I'm encouraged to read that from you. Not that long ago, it seemed you were for abrogating that right for some people because of the accident of their residence in your community, but you've come to understand the right applies to others as well.
Thanks, CL. To me, the essence of the Second Amendment right is the ability to protect one's person, home and property. The debate to which you refer had to do with the right of a local community to regulate open carry in the public square, where there are issues of federalism to consider.
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Ironically, this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre.
There is nothing that can be done to 'prevent' this. It is the price of living in a free society.
One can do things to mitigate, but never prevent.
Liberals live in the fantasy land that if one does enough, one can prevent bad things from happening.
That is only possible when freedoms are destroyed.
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Oh, I am so sorry to hear that. If you have any contact with her, please let her know that people all over the country are praying for her, and for her family.
I cannot imagine the grief. Even with a deep faith, the human pain has to be unbearable.
They need to be lifted up by our prayers!
My wife is on a prayer team and those warriors are at it almost non-stop.
Thanks for the support
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The only thing that was going to stop this guy was incarceration. Buying an AK or AR is just a matter of money. If he was going to shoot up a church, he was going to be willing spend a few thousand $ to do it. If he couldn't do it legally, there are other ways. we need to focus on HIM, not the weapon.
Ironically, the Democrats want more restrictive gun laws but they don't want to enforce the ones we have because it just puts more poor voters in jail.
If you want to obtain a fully automatic AK in London, England, you can do it. It's just going to cost you.
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The versus "Jesus wept." is John 11:35. It happens before Lazarus is brought back to life, not afterwards.
You are correct, sir. Point being that Lazarus was in a better place, and Jesus knew it.
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There is nothing that can be done to 'prevent' this. It is the price of living in a free society.
I disagree.
While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base. That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.
I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property. Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child. Yes, this horror just might have been prevented - had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.
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You are correct, sir. Point being that Lazarus was in a better place, and Jesus knew it.
I don't think I am following your thought process on the verse of his weeping. But I agree with your sentiment and we can save nuanced discussion for a better thread.
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Ironically, this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre. The problem wasn't the law - Kelley should have been in the no-purchase data base, but for human error (the military's failure to provide the information). We don't need "more laws" to address the age-old problem of garbage-in, garbage-out.
Even more ironically, the death count would have been higher had an armed citizen not been nearby to ward off the shooter before police could arrive. This is hardly a case that puts the argument for more gun control in a better light. Indeed, the liberal reaction borders on hysteria - we gotta do Something! Anything! Whether it makes sense or is efficacious (or, even worse, would positively erode the community's safety) makes no difference.
Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment. I don't own guns, and don't understand the appeal of gun culture. But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice. That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain. I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not. That is the essence of citizenship.
Well said @Jazzhead
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I disagree.
While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base. That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.
I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property. Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child. Yes, this horror just might have been prevented - had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.
Passing laws cannot prevent anything. It mitigates.
The guy can steal a gun and kill. He doesn't need to get it legally.
Until you understand the difference in English between 'prevent' and 'mitigate', there can be no conversation.
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@Jazzhead
You nailed it.
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One of my daughter's best friends is from Sutherland Springs and it is her mom's family that lost so many. They are devastated.
I’m so sorry. I will continue to pray for them.
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Passing laws cannot prevent anything. It mitigates.
The guy can steal a gun and kill. He doesn't need to get it legally.
Until you understand the difference in English between 'prevent' and 'mitigate', there can be no conversation.
If existing laws been properly enforced, he should never been allowed to get a firearm.
This isn't even a Lautenberg Amendment case: He served a year in the brig for beating his first wife and child sufficiently to cause the child a skull fracture. In the civilian courts, this would have been charged as a Felony Aggravated Assault, not a simple Misdemeanor, so laws prohibiting his gun ownership existed long before Lautenberg.
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I disagree.
While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base. That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.
What will be different next time? Same federal government running the show - the same federal government that puts more effort into making sure Texas can't write its own marriage law than it puts into keeping a simple database updated.
Seriously, what will be different next time? You seriously think the same federal government that put automatic weapons in the hands of Mexican drug lords - weapons that were used against Texas citizens - that somehow this same federal government will give a damn about keeping a simple database updated to prevent a criminal from purchasing a gun?
Government is the problem - not the solution. The only thing this Big Brother database is good for is to protect the gun store from being sued.
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If existing laws been properly enforced, he should never been allowed to get a firearm.
In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms. All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons. Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.
Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.
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In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms. All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons. Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.
Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.
My guess is ZERO!
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@Applewood
Exposes them - as if we Needed any more proof - for what they are: Dictatorial, Lying, Totalitarians with only one Agenda, to seize and hold as much power as the rest of us can be Bulls#$tted into acquiescing to.
It's always packaged and sold as being "For the Greater Good".
Every society that's put the "Greater Good" above the Individual Good has wrought nothing but misery, poverty and millions of filled graves.
The police didn't have time to respond.
It's a meme, and one the antis hate, but true no matter how many tee shirts its been on.
Call a cop, an ambulance, and a pizza. See who gets there first.
This shooter had a history, and the Air Force failed to plug him into the system.
So we have a "System". What possible good would even More System/Laws which FAILED here accomplish if the people responsible for working that system just blew off their responsibility to plug him into it?
GIGO: It fits every information storage and retrieval system imaginable, Garbage In = Garbage Out
The shooter escaped from a mental health facility in 2011.
Those clowns certainly didn't 'cure' him of his maladies. In fact, they probably made him more sociopathic.
The kid who shot up Virginia Tech was considered Withdrawn, Rude, Antisocial, and just not someone people gravitated to.
So they sent him for Mental Health counseling, which only dumped more S##T on his outlook by further alienating him with a Label, as forever damaged, sub human, due to an incurable Mind Disease. It was only AFTER they spit in his face with that crap that he snapped and all those people at VT died.
If the counselors had left him alone, he'd probably still be a pariah - or he might have figured out how life works on his own - but he and his victims would probably still be alive.
Counseling leads to more counseling which leads to drugging.
Here's a visual aid:
(https://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/124071812_0934f2171a_b.jpg)
Read the labeling: Contains No Active Drug
This drug is sold to make people Mentally Healthy, and the quacks who peddle it all day every day need to be told, on the bling the makers sales rep hands them, that it's free of their money maker.
That's because the Docs who push it know full well better than to ingest the stuff themselves, AND, they know how crooked the drug makers are from day to day contact through reps and headline news. So they're Paranoid/Mentally Ill themselves. Birds of a feather.
If this stuff actually made people Mentally Healthy, why wouldn't we all want the Psychiatrists themselves to be on it?
Catch 22.
Look far enough into school shootings and you'll find psychiatric drugs involved in well over 2/3rds of them over the last 30 years.
And we Still can't poison our whole society with them fast enough:
http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2016/05/govt-mind-control-tops-us-healthcare.html
End of the day there's only 2 sure fire ways of stopping mass murder from anyone.
Put them in jail and keep them there, or an armed citizen.
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Well said, Jazzhead. :beer:
I second (or third, or fourth) that, @Jazzhead !
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Call a cop, an ambulance, and a pizza. See who gets there first.
A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone.
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In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms. All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons. Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.
Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.
I don't believe any have.
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In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms. All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons. Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.
Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.
None.
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@Hoodat, what is the answer?
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I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property. Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child. Yes, this horror just might have been prevented - had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.
That law already exists. What he did to the child is a Felony Aggravated Assault in a civilian court, and if the Air Force had properly reported it to NICS he would have been refused the right to purchase a weapon. No new laws required.
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In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms. All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons. Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.
Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.
The point is they were caught - and the gun store didn't sell them the firearm.
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That law already exists. What he did to the child is a Felony Aggravated Assault in a civilian court, and if the Air Force had properly reported it to NICS he would have been refused the right to purchase a weapon. No new laws required.
I agree. The law is efficacious (48,000 caught each year, according to Hoodat), and targeted to the bad guys, not law-abiding citizens. It would have worked, except for garbage in, garbage out.
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The point is they were caught - and the gun store didn't sell them the firearm.
No Sir! The point is that NONE of them were prosecuted for making false statements on form 4473. Doing that is itself a felony!
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Thanks, CL. To me, the essence of the Second Amendment right is the ability to protect one's person, home and property. The debate to which you refer had to do with the right of a local community to regulate open carry in the public square, where there are issues of federalism to consider.
If the community where this Church is didn't recognize the right to carry "in the public square" the good guy would never have had the weapon required to have stopped the bad guy.
One's right to self protection does not stop at one's front door.
Small steps, but we're getting there...
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No Sir! The point is that NONE of them were prosecuted for making false statements on form 4473. Doing that is itself a felony!
Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
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There's certainly more info we have to know if one wants to know Willeford's role, it sounds like the shooter was on his way out, near Kelley's own vehicle when Willeford got there per Willeford's own story on the video. I also heard Kelley was about to execute one more person when Willeford got there. So, hopefully, there will be a full narrative somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8
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Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
I cannot prosecute them! That is a matter for our illustrious DOJ!
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I agree. The law is efficacious, and targeted to the bad guys, not law-abiding citizens. It would have worked, except for garbage in, garbage out.
Correct. This is why many on the pro-Second Amendment side say, "If we enforced the laws we have, we would not need new ones." Meanwhile, every time one of these tragedy happens, the liberals start screaming for new laws that further restrict the rights of lawful owners of firearms.
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@Hoodat
A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone.
Must be a great comfort to antis to know that when they send their daughter off to college if some troglodyte tries to grab her off the street at night he's gonna pee himself and run screaming in terror when she whips out her cell phone and threatens to Call The Police.
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Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
Yes, but the offender is free to attempt to do it again, and maybe next time somebody will make a clerical error in processing the NICS check and he slips through the cracks. No, there is a reason lying on the form is a prosecutable crime, and that it hasn't happened is a dereliction of the government's duty to enforce the law.
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Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
You keep repeating these false talking points.
They are not denied anything but the ability to buy legally.
These are people engaged in criminal behavior, why should they be expected to act legally?
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I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property. Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child. Yes, this horror just might have been prevented - had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.
Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.
If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.
There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive. ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.
THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.
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There's certainly more info we have to know if one wants to know Willeford's role, it sounds like the shooter was on his way out, near Kelley's own vehicle when Willeford got there per Willeford's own story on the video. I also heard Kelley was about to execute one more person when Willeford got there. So, hopefully, there will be a full narrative somewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8
If Willeford had been prevented from carrying his weapon "in the public square," the murderer would never have been stopped.
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Kelley was involved in domestic violence,
Articles are being written now on whether domestic violence is a common denominator in these mass shootings.
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I hope that we eventually learn why he was denied a license to carry in Texas. The authorities would not answer that yesterday- calling it protected information.
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@roamer_1
Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.
If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.
There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive. ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.
THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.
All true, every word.
And that only addresses guns bought through Legal sources, not 'on the street'.
More guns in this country than there are people.
Somebody 100% prohibited can always get them Without going to a licensed gun dealer.
Damn fools in this country are willing to sell heroin.
With morals like that, what's to prevent them from illegal arms trafficking too?
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Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
To legally purchase a firearm, from a dealer. Firearms can be obtained outside the NICS, by stealing one or buying it from someone who did.
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Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.
If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.
There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive. ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.
THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.
The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.
Yes, he may have gotten them anyway, as monsters do, but he didn't HAVE to.
THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed here.
Why wasn't he red flagged multiple times for his previous military discharge, court martial, and his assaults?
The gun seller didn't do anything wrong, according to what he knew, and he armed a cold blooded killer.
He should have known.
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Kelley was involved in domestic violence,
Articles are being written now on whether domestic violence is a common denominator in these mass shootings.
According to accounts, he had also escaped a mental institution or such care. Most of these events have someone who is just not wired right at the center of them.
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Escaped mental health clinic.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41907943
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The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.
Yes, he may have gotten them anyway, as monsters do, but he didn't HAVE to.
THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed here.
Why wasn't he red flagged multiple times for his previous military discharge, court martial, and his assaults?
The gun seller didn't do anything wrong, according to what he knew, and he armed a cold blooded killer.
He should have known.
The point is that it is not efficacious ANYWAY. The point is that all the bullcrap and jumpin through hoops doesn't work anywhere near well, and in the end, doesn't work at all.
The tenor on this thread is what leads invariably to more plastic feelgood 'tightening up' of the laws which don't tighten a damn thing beyond my own ability to buy a gun unhindered.
Well, check that... because I do buy my guns unhindered. Because I go to the same places the criminals do - I buy em off the back of trucks, simply because I can, and because it ain't worth going the legal route. And Uncle Damn Sam doesn't need to know what firearms I may or may not possess. For all he knows, I have only bought two guns in my whole life. And I trade in guns all the time.
Any gun you'd care to mention, I can have in my hands anytime. All I need is enough cash.
And btw, many of my friends were dumbasses in their youth. Many of them can't legally buy a gun, and haven't been able to since they were kids and the judge laid them low... And there ain't nary a one that doesn't own a closet full.
So in my mind, it would be far better to understand that your 'legal means' doesn't mean a dang thing in the real world and nip the inevitable call for 'stronger laws' right in the bud. All you'll be doing is lending credence to liberal hand-wringing - all of which does nothing at all to stop criminals from being criminal.
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@roamer_1
All true, every word.
And that only addresses guns bought through Legal sources, not 'on the street'.
More guns in this country than there are people.
Somebody 100% prohibited can always get them Without going to a licensed gun dealer.
Be careful. It's the "more guns than people" argument that is the most effective liberal argument for gun control.
If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns. Such as the data bank law that could have prevented the legal sale of the rifle that Kelley used to mow down worshippers.
The fact the criminals act outside the law doesn't mean you give up on the idea of having laws altogether. Legal gun owners will need to live with reasonable restrictions to help reduce the incidence of bad guys getting guns. Like laws prohibiting felons or perpetrators of domestic violence from buying guns. Like requirements to register and insure firearms, so when a gun is stolen or missing, that fact is reported to the police. Not stupid, symbolic stuff, but real, efficacious measures that reduce the percentage of guns out there "on the street".
I'm not here to necessarily debate the specific laws that may work or not work. But I refuse to give in to this mindset that since criminals can "always" get guns illegally there's no reason to have laws at all. Kelley wasn't a criminal so much as a mental case. If he had been stopped from buying that rifle because of his domestic violence history, he might not have gunned down that congregation.
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The point is that it is not efficacious ANYWAY. The point is that all the bullcrap and jumpin through hoops doesn't work anywhere near well, and in the end, doesn't work at all.
The tenor on this thread is what leads invariably to more plastic feelgood 'tightening up' of the laws which don't tighten a damn thing beyond my own ability to buy a gun unhindered.
Well, check that... because I do buy my guns unhindered. Because I go to the same places the criminals do - I buy em off the back of trucks, simply because I can, and because it ain't worth going the legal route. And Uncle Damn Sam doesn't need to know what firearms I may or may not possess. For all he knows, I have only bought two guns in my whole life. And I trade in guns all the time.
Any gun you'd care to mention, I can have in my hands anytime. All I need is enough cash.
And btw, many of my friends were dumbasses in their youth. Many of them can't legally buy a gun, and haven't been able to since they were kids and the judge laid them low... And there ain't nary a one that doesn't own a closet full.
So in my mind, it would be far better to understand that your 'legal means' doesn't mean a dang thing in the real world and nip the inevitable call for 'stronger laws' right in the bud. All you'll be doing is lending credence to liberal hand-wringing - all of which does nothing at all to stop criminals from being criminal.
Well, goody for you and your friends, but I didn't call for "stronger laws." I would NEVER call for "stronger laws" (and I doubt anyone on this board would).
And my position that a serial, violent criminal shouldn't be able to buy a LEGAL firearms remains the same.
This monster should NOT have been sold weapons legally.
And he WAS.
That's a problem in the real world, where laws are supposed to mean something, and be followed by law-abiding citizens.
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Be careful. It's the "more guns than people" argument that is the most effective liberal argument for gun control.
If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns. Such as the data bank law that could have prevented the legal sale of the rifle that Kelley used to mow down worshippers.
The fact the criminals act outside the law doesn't mean you give up on the idea of having laws altogether. Legal gun owners will need to live with reasonable restrictions to help reduce the incidence of bad guys getting guns. Like laws prohibiting felons or perpetrators of domestic violence from buying guns. Like requirements to register and insure firearms, so when a gun is stolen or missing, that fact is reported to the police. Not stupid, symbolic stuff, but real, efficacious measures that reduce the percentage of guns out there "on the street".
I'm not here to necessarily debate the specific laws that may work or not work. But I refuse to give in to this mindset that since criminals can "always" get guns illegally there's no reason to have laws at all. Kelley wasn't a criminal so much as a mental case. If he had been stopped from buying that rifle because of his domestic violence history, he might not have gunned down that congregation.
You will NEVER prevent such a man. NEVER.
What you will do is prevent people who might otherwise have protected you.
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The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.
Yes, he may have gotten them anyway, as monsters do, but he didn't HAVE to.
THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed here.
Why wasn't he red flagged multiple times for his previous military discharge, court martial, and his assaults?
The gun seller didn't do anything wrong, according to what he knew, and he armed a cold blooded killer.
He should have known.
Why? Because the Feds screwed up.
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Well, goody for you and your friends, but I didn't call for "stronger laws." I would NEVER call for "stronger laws" (and I doubt anyone on this board would).
@Jazzhead just did.
And my position that a serial, violent criminal shouldn't be able to buy a LEGAL firearms remains the same.
This monster should NOT have been sold weapons legally.
And he WAS.
That's a problem in the real world, where laws are supposed to mean something, and be followed by law-abiding citizens.
Laws are only followed when they are just. Criminalizing good men in order to catch a few criminal idiots is the wrong thing to do.
I can go to the most gun-control infested cities you might mention and buy anything I want. I dare say I can do the very same in Britain or Germany. It isn't THIS country. It is anywhere.
You could shut off gun manufacturing entirely and cause all guns to be illegal, and all you will do is cause Mexico and points south to begin a booming business in illegal trade. running guns in just like they do drugs and whores.
You may as well ban steak knives and screwdrivers.
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@Jazzhead just did.
Laws are only followed when they are just. Criminalizing good men in order to catch a few criminal idiots is the wrong thing to do.
I can go to the most gun-control infested cities you might mention and buy anything I want. I dare say I can do the very same in Britain or Germany. It isn't THIS country. It is anywhere.
You could shut off gun manufacturing entirely and cause all guns to be illegal, and all you will do is cause Mexico and points south to begin a booming business in illegal trade. running guns in just like they do drugs and whores.
You may as well ban steak knives and screwdrivers.
And pressure cookers and trucks, while you're at it. Those who want to cause terror will find a way. Legality isn't an issue for them.
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And pressure cookers and trucks, while you're at it. Those who want to cause terror will find a way. Legality isn't an issue for them.
That's right.
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Why? Because the Feds screwed up.
That's exactly what happened, which points out the fallacy of trying to fix the problem of crazy people killing other people with guns. There are too many ways for the bureaucracy to screw it up.
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If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns. Such as the data bank law that could have prevented the legal sale of the rifle that Kelley used to mow down worshippers.
I am not familiar with a "data bank law," and Google found nothing. What is that? It sounds like a new law you are proposing. It is incorrect to keep saying Kelley bought the guns "legally." He did not, he lied on the paperwork, which is illegal. This is like calling illegal immigrants legal immigrants.
I refuse to get comfortable with more regulations on me.
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So the answer is to have no laws at all? That's ridiculous. Roamer may thumb his nose and buy guns illegally, and get away with it because he practices Dylan's credo*, but if he were ever to be caught, he should have the book thrown at him.
We need laws that are both limited and efficacious, and to enforce them. We don't need laws that hinder gun rights for no good purpose, or are merely feel-good symbolism.
Those who support the Second Amendment hurt their cause by taking extremist positions at odds with common sense.
* "to live outside the law you must be honest"
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So the answer is to have no laws at all? That's ridiculous. Roamer may thumb his nose and buy guns illegally, and get away with it because he practices Dylan's credo*, but if he were ever to be caught, he should have the book thrown at him.
Who said I am buying guns illegally? With the possible exception of having handled stolen goods unaware, I am doing nothing illegal.
We need laws that are both limited and efficacious, and to enforce them. We don't need laws that hinder gun rights for no good purpose, or are merely feel-good symbolism.
There is no such thing.
Those who support the Second Amendment hurt their cause by taking extremist positions at odds with common sense.
* "to live outside the law you must be honest"
There is no common sense in what you propose. All you do is keep guns out of the hands of people who would follow the law. Criminals, by nature, do not follow law.
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So the answer is to have no laws at all? That's ridiculous. Roamer may thumb his nose and buy guns illegally, and get away with it because he practices Dylan's credo*, but if he were ever to be caught, he should have the book thrown at him.
We need laws that are both limited and efficacious, and to enforce them. We don't need laws that hinder gun rights for no good purpose, or are merely feel-good symbolism.
Those who support the Second Amendment hurt their cause by taking extremist positions at odds with common sense.
* "to live outside the law you must be honest"
To purchase firearms from an individual without government involvement is not, and should not be, illegal.
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If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns.
Except they're never limited nor efficacious.
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Except they're never limited nor efficacious.
A frog in the process of being boiled is quite comfortable with the water as it's heating up.
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Be careful. It's the "more guns than people" argument that is the most effective liberal argument for gun control.
If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns. Such as the data bank law that could have prevented the legal sale of the rifle that Kelley used to mow down worshippers.
The fact the criminals act outside the law doesn't mean you give up on the idea of having laws altogether. Legal gun owners will need to live with reasonable restrictions to help reduce the incidence of bad guys getting guns. Like laws prohibiting felons or perpetrators of domestic violence from buying guns. Like requirements to register and insure firearms, so when a gun is stolen or missing, that fact is reported to the police. Not stupid, symbolic stuff, but real, efficacious measures that reduce the percentage of guns out there "on the street".
I'm not here to necessarily debate the specific laws that may work or not work. But I refuse to give in to this mindset that since criminals can "always" get guns illegally there's no reason to have laws at all. Kelley wasn't a criminal so much as a mental case. If he had been stopped from buying that rifle because of his domestic violence history, he might not have gunned down that congregation.
i don't give a Rat's hind foot about what Liberals want to argue.
The law is the law.
And it doesn't come Any Higher or with Any more Controlling/Over Riding Authority than "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
And Since the 2nd means squat to Libs meaning to INFRINGE, then we Should be telling them we don't want Them to have any 1st Amendment Right to run their yaps for more gun control which only gets More People Killed, UNLESS, We can have Their mouths entered into Govt background check systems and They will have to be Govt Approved before They can offer Their Opinion on this, or any other subject.
There is no such damn thing as limited, efficacious gun control which cannot be circumvented by anyone with the desire to get around it.
I for one am sick to my guts of the very Idea of 'Bipartisan' Agreement with Libs on just about Any issue.
On gun control in, They can go to hell.
Bipartisan: synonym for Date Rape
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I am not familiar with a "data bank law," and Google found nothing. What is that? It sounds like a new law you are proposing. It is incorrect to keep saying Kelley bought the guns "legally." He did not, he lied on the paperwork, which is illegal. This is like calling illegal immigrants legal immigrants.
I refuse to get comfortable with more regulations on me.
I was referring to the law you referenced in your post #552. The one where the Air Force was supposed to transmit data regarding Kelley's history of domestic violence, and if he were in the database, the gun store wouldn't have sold him the gun he used to murder 26 people.
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Except they're never limited nor efficacious.
So you're against keeping a data base of folks with felony convictions that gun stores must check before selling a firearm? According to Hoodat, that law prevents 48,000 legal sales per year.
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I was referring to the law you referenced in your post #552. The one where the Air Force was supposed to transmit data regarding Kelley's history of domestic violence, and if he were in the database, the gun store wouldn't have sold him the gun he used to murder 26 people.
No... They'd have sold it to his girlfriend or his buddy instead.
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To purchase firearms from an individual without government involvement is not, and should not be, illegal.
:thumbsup3:
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This is really a thread specifically about the shooting in Sutherland Springs. Discussion of "gun control" is at best tangential to that.
@Jazzhead, you might want to start a gun control discussion thread elsewhere and leave this for updates on the shooting and the victims. Thank you in advance.
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So you're against keeping a data base of folks with felony convictions that gun stores must check before selling a firearm? According to Hoodat, that law prevents 48,000 legal sales per year.
Generating 48000 legal sales to friends or family, or second-hand trade.
It means nothing.
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Talk-talk-talk abut guns, gun control, is in part looking at the inanimate object.
We need better people control. There needs to be a major rethink about "civil liberty" for people that are mentally ill and have shown a propensity to be violent.
Battering his child so severely as to fracture the baby's skull might ought to mean life in prison.
We probably need more prisons. We probably need stiffer sentences for violent crimes.
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I was referring to the law you referenced in your post #552. The one where the Air Force was supposed to transmit data regarding Kelley's history of domestic violence, and if he were in the database, the gun store wouldn't have sold him the gun he used to murder 26 people.
At least you got the part right about him being the culprit, not the gun.
The part you do not get is that a guy so maniac that he kills little kids in a church is just inhibited from using that specific gun not sold to him, as he certainly would have had no compunction from getting some other gun to commit the deed.
The gun is tangential to the real issue which is that this guy wanted people to die, whether from a gun he gets legally, illegally or a car he runs people over with or a match he uses in the church to torch people. He is the problem, not a gun or a method.
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Generating 48000 legal sales to friends or family, or second-hand trade.
It means nothing.
Sales, but not all 48,000 are going to be legal sales. If a felon is buying, that purchase isn't legal.
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Sales, but not all 48,000 are going to be legal sales. If a felon is buying, that purchase isn't legal.
That's right. I stand corrected, but the point remains.
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I posted a thread with the names of victims just released.
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I was referring to the law you referenced in your post #552. The one where the Air Force was supposed to transmit data regarding Kelley's history of domestic violence, and if he were in the database, the gun store wouldn't have sold him the gun he used to murder 26 people.
Ah. I misunderstood. When you wrote "get comfortable with" I thought you meant a new law. I'm perfectly comfortable with the existing law that makes it illegal for a felon to buy a gun, but I do think an ex-con should be able to purge that conviction after a certain number of years (like 10-15).
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Ah. I misunderstood. When you wrote "get comfortable with" I thought you meant a new law. I'm perfectly comfortable with the existing law that makes it illegal for a felon to buy a gun, but I do think an ex-con should be able to purge that conviction after a certain number of years (like 10-15).
In Texas, 5 years after their sentence is complete, the felon may possess a firearm at their residence.
Sec. 46.04
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm
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@Jazzhead
"they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns."
That is now, and forever has been, Orwellian Newspeak.
Reasonable gun control is nothing more than a 20 lb sledgehammer driving the camel's nose further under the tent.
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In Texas, 5 years after their sentence is complete, the felon may possess a firearm at their residence.
Sec. 46.04
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm
Not going to sift through that document...in the home is one thing, but outside of the home? One's natural right to self-defense is not terminated by stepping through a door.
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Not going to sift through that document...in the home is one thing, but outside of the home? One's natural right to self-defense is not terminated by stepping through a door.
It is when it is the result of due process of a felony conviction. The rights of the people remains, the rights of the criminal, after conviction, can be limited.
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Not going to sift through that document...in the home is one thing, but outside of the home? One's natural right to self-defense is not terminated by stepping through a door.
You also have to consider the founders weren’t considering the RKBA of felons, as many of those crimes got you a trip to the gallows in those days.
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Not going to sift through that document...
Relevant section is short:
Sec. 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.
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It is when it is the result of due process of a felony conviction. The rights of the people remains, the rights of the criminal, after conviction, can be limited.
I understand that, it's pretty much the rule everywhere in the country. I did not know firearm ownership in TX is legal for felons. Voting rights are pretty much the same. I have a friend in NV who had a felony conviction from 25 years ago, and he got his voting rights restored after petitioning the court, I was wondering about the right to carry a firearm....
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Relevant section is short:
Sec. 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.
Thanks! Interesting it addresses the possession, but not the acquisition of a firearm.
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Thanks! Interesting it addresses the possession, but not the acquisition of a firearm.
Yep, you are going to need a buddy willing to come to your house to sell it to you. Or a gift. No strawman sales to stay legal...
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Why? Because the Feds screwed up.
Rhetorical question, I guess.
Of COURSE it's because the Feds screwed up. They pretty much always do when it matters. :shrug:
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Then prosecute them. But even in the absence of prosecution, they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.
@Jazzhead @Bigun @Sanguine
Jazzhead,
Two things to point out here. First of all, in regard to the 80,000 new felonies committed (that they know of), have you ever considered why the number is so high? Think about that. On any given day, 200 convicted felons got caught committing felonies by lying on their forms. So why do so many felons risk getting caught with the potential of getting sent away for another five years? Because even when caught, there is no risk of going to jail.
In 2014, the federal government prosecuted less than 0.2% of these cases. If they were vigilant in upholding the law, then there sure wouldn't be 80,000 people trying.
The second point is the number you don't give. Sure, you pat yourself on the back for the 80,000 number - a number inflated solely by your failure to act. But you ignore the number not given - the number of convicted felons who committed a second felony by lying on the form, yet were still allowed to purchase a gun.
Because if I can't trust Big Brother to take felons off the street, then how can I trust them to keep them from buying guns?
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@Jazzhead just did.
That doesn't negate my point. Posters on this board do not support "more laws" against gun ownership.
They just don't....... so you are preaching to the choir.
Laws are only followed when they are just. Criminalizing good men in order to catch a few criminal idiots is the wrong thing to do.
I can go to the most gun-control infested cities you might mention and buy anything I want. I dare say I can do the very same in Britain or Germany. It isn't THIS country. It is anywhere.
You could shut off gun manufacturing entirely and cause all guns to be illegal, and all you will do is cause Mexico and points south to begin a booming business in illegal trade. running guns in just like they do drugs and whores.
You may as well ban steak knives and screwdrivers.
Who, in heaven's name has suggested "criminalizing good men??" Why don't you respond to what I'm saying and not go off on a tangent?
This guy was NOT a "good man."
And I repeat........ I am NOT in favor of gun control.
Your argument that I am is ridiculous. As is the "steak and screw driver" silliness.
Argue the point I'm making. I AGREE with you on the basics. Just not on your not caring that this guy should never have been permitted to buy weapons with his military, criminal and psychological history.
Now, unless you are going to stick to what I've said, I've got to end this because you're starting to make me angry with your implications that I'm arguing what I'm not, and this is not the thread for it.
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Those who support the Second Amendment hurt their cause by taking extremist positions at odds with common sense.
And those who don't support the Constitution risk the very tyranny they embrace being one day turned against them.
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@Jazzhead @Bigun @Sanguine
Jazzhead,
Two things to point out here. First of all, in regard to the 80,000 new felonies committed (that they know of), have you ever considered why the number is so high? Think about that. On any given day, 200 convicted felons got caught committing felonies by lying on their forms. So why do so many felons risk getting caught with the potential of getting sent away for another five years? Because even when caught, there is no risk of going to jail.
In 2014, the federal government prosecuted less than 0.2% of these cases. If they were vigilant in upholding the law, then there sure wouldn't be 80,000 people trying.
The second point is the number you don't give. Sure, you pat yourself on the back for the 80,000 number - a number inflated solely by your failure to act. But you ignore the number not given - the number of convicted felons who committed a second felony by lying on the form, yet were still allowed to purchase a gun.
Because if I can't trust Big Brother to take felons off the street, then how can I trust them to keep them from buying guns?
Good points, Hoodat.
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The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.
Au contraire.
Form 4473 (https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download)
The perpetrator lied on 11 c, f, and g.
11c - convicted of a crime where he should have served 5 years.
11f - committed to a mental institution
11g - discharged from military under dishonorable condition (discharged by court-martial)
Each infraction constitutes a felony. However, he probably knew that the federal government routinely fails to prosecute.
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And those who don't support the Constitution risk the very tyranny they embrace being one day turned against them.
Suggesting that those who favor laws that reasonably restrict the right of felons and domestic abusers to legally purchase firearms "don't support the Constitution" is exactly the sort of extremism that hurts the pro-RKBA cause.
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Suggesting that those who favor laws that reasonably restrict the right of felons and domestic abusers to legally purchase firearms "don't support the Constitution" is exactly the sort of extremism that hurts the pro-RKBA cause.
I was thinking more along the lines of those who favor allowing black-robed tyrants to create their own 'laws' [sic] outside the confines of the Constitution. I have no problem prohibiting felons, domestic abusers, or anyone convicted of any violent crime from purchasing, much less owning, a firearm.
Of course none of that has any bearing on my support for Amendment II, I, X, or any other part of the Constitution. Live by the rules, enjoy the benefits. Break the rules, lose the benefits.
So for the record, I am not hurting my cause by supporting the Second Amendment, although I find it quite telling that you would call someone out for supporting the Constitution of the United States of America. What once were vices are now habits.
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You will NEVER prevent such a man. NEVER.
What you will do is prevent people who might otherwise have protected you.
Actually, it does prevent many crimes. Several studies have shown that criminals are hampered by restrictions, with many deciding against possession or not having the means to obtain a weapon.
The funny thing is, these studies are often brought up by gun-control opponents, who use them to show that we don't need more controls as the existing ones work well. Now you're shooting the idea down.
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Actually, it does prevent many crimes. Several studies have shown that criminals are hampered by restrictions, with many deciding against possession or not having the means to obtain a weapon.
The funny thing is, these studies are often brought up by gun-control opponents, who use them to show that we don't need more controls as the existing ones work well. Now you're shooting the idea down.
Sorry, but I don't believe a moment of it - Likely opportunist criminals telling them what they want to hear fr an expected reward. It is SO simple to buy second hand, and even more simple to commit a burglary, that the reference you make can only be baloney.
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Maybe if murder were against the law, these senseless killings would stop.
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Limited, Efficacious Gun Control?
Military's Known About Crime Reporting Lapses To FBI For 2 Decades
dailycaller
[excerpt]
http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/08/militarys-known-about-crime-reporting-lapses-to-fbi-for-two-decades/
The Pentagon has known for nearly 20 years about major reporting lapses to the FBI of criminals within the U.S. military, The Associated Press reports.
The AP discovered a 1997 report that detailed massive fingerprint reporting lapses of military criminals with the U.S. Navy and the Navy failed to report 94 percent of cases. “The lack of reporting to the FBI criminal history files prevents civilian law enforcement agencies from having significant information on military offenders,” the report warned 20 years ago.
Military criminal reporting to the FBI has come under renewed scrutiny after former U.S. Air Force enlisted criminal Devin Kelley killed 26 people in a Sutherland Springs, Texas, church Sunday. Kelley, 26, was convicted of misdemeanor domestic assault under court martial in 2012, under U.S. law this should have barred him from ever purchasing a firearm.
Want a system? For Background checks?
GIGO: Garbage In = Garbage Out
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Maybe if murder were against the law, these senseless killings would stop.
Yes. Don't blame an inanimate object, blame the "human" holding it.
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Yes. Don't blame an inanimate object, blame the "human" holding it.
@austingirl, I just watched this video of Johnny Langendorf. I had seen him interviewed before and thought, well, he's a little funny looking, but he speaks OK. This is a better interview, and may just restore a bit of faith in humanity. Well worth watching all the way through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xyY0wbcKo
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Some thoughts on the " Good guy with a gun" Stephen Willeford who put two bullets into the shooter. Thank God for him. Who knows how many more may have died. Maybe he was planning on hiting another church, or maybe police hurt in a shootout, who knows. But a lesson to be had here. Once his gun safe was open he had to grab a box of bullets and load the empty magazine to his AR-15. How many people were killed with the pop pop pop sound he said he was hearing as he loaded the magazine? I' sure that thought was rolling in his head as well, for what must have seemed like an eternity.
A gun in a safe is perfectly fine, essecially if you have kids, but have it ready to rock as soon as the safe is open. Empty magazines make no sense.
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Some thoughts on the " Good guy with a gun" Stephen Willeford who put two bullets into the shooter. Thank God for him. Who knows how many more may have died. Maybe he was planning on hiting another church, or maybe police hurt in a shootout, who knows. But a lesson to be had here. Once his gun safe was open he had to grab a box of bullets and load the empty magazine to his AR-15. How many people were killed with the pop pop pop sound he said he was hearing as he loaded the magazine? I' sure that thought was rolling in his head as well, for what must have seemed like an eternity.
A gun in a safe is perfectly fine, essecially if you have kids, but have it ready to rock as soon as the safe is open. Empty magazines make no sense.
QFT!
Well said.
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Maybe if murder were against the law, these senseless killings would stop.
Too many senseless people.
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So you're against keeping a data base of folks with felony convictions that gun stores must check before selling a firearm? According to Hoodat, that law prevents 48,000 legal sales per year.
GIGO. It didn't work because it wasn't followed by the agencies which should have reported the problem in the first place, so the firearm could not have been legally purchased. A relatively minor impediment, but one that may have heralded a problem that was developing. That would not have stopped the determined criminal form getting one, but it would have stopped him from purchasing the rifle legally.
However, that law didn't work. Because his priors had not been reported by the Air Force, and likely another law (HIPAA) prevented the release of the mental Health information that also could have been enough to prevent that sale or flag the attempt.
We don't need any more stinking laws. We need for the people who are charged with enforcing those laws to do so, with the laws we have.
In the mean time, If I want to buy, sell, or trade my legally owned firearms with another person, someone who is not a criminal or mentally deficient, I am free to do so. If something seems sketchy about that, i am always free to nix the deal, and would feel morally obligated to not conduct a private deal.
Concentrating on the tool ignores the hand that wields it, and imho, that is the problem here, not the same type of rifle that ended the rampage, but the type of person behind it.
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So you're against keeping a data base of folks with felony convictions that gun stores must check before selling a firearm? According to Hoodat, that law prevents 48,000 legal sales per year.
How many illegal sales did it prevent, @Jazzhead? I can think of a few right now, can you?
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Suggesting that those who favor laws that reasonably restrict the right of felons and domestic abusers to legally purchase firearms "don't support the Constitution" is exactly the sort of extremism that hurts the pro-RKBA cause.
You ignore that the Lautenberg Amendment was an ex post facto law, when it came to those convicted of even misdemeanor domestic violence prior to the passage of the law. That's specifically forbidden by the Constitution. So there was a problem from the git-go with that. Had it been from the date the law took effect, it would have been copacetic, despite not encompassing those abusers who had been convicted prior to the passage of the Amendment.
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Sorry, but I don't believe a moment of it - Likely opportunist criminals telling them what they want to hear fr an expected reward. It is SO simple to buy second hand, and even more simple to commit a burglary, that the reference you make can only be baloney.
I think it depends on the crime. Some urges to commit a criminal act are flashes in the pan, so to speak, and hampered, even for a little while, just might not happen. Crimes of passion might be curtailed, or just forced to use a different weapon.
The ones which will not be deterred were smoldering for a bit before the flames came along. Those are hatreds developed and nursed over a period of time, and allowed to become obsessions. Someone with a longstanding grudge is more patient and will do what it takes to settle the score. Others will just supply themselves with the tools they think they will need for a robbery, etc.; just something else to check off on the supply list.
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@austingirl, I just watched this video of Johnny Langendorf. I had seen him interviewed before and thought, well, he's a little funny looking, but he speaks OK. This is a better interview, and may just restore a bit of faith in humanity. Well worth watching all the way through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xyY0wbcKo
Some folks instinctively run toward the sound of trouble.
The CNN guy cracks me up, saying it is uncertain whether the shooter died of wounds inflicted near the church or by his own hand. (If he had already died of previously inflicted wounds, how would he have shot himself?)
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I think it depends on the crime. Some urges to commit a criminal act are flashes in the pan, so to speak, and hampered, even for a little while, just might not happen. Crimes of passion might be curtailed, or just forced to use a different weapon.
Perhaps, but the point is whether gun registries and criminal registries literally stop criminals from getting guns. That my friend, is utter fallacy... a position which your sojourns dressed in gypsy leather, if no other reasons, should have left you readily disabused of any modicum of truth it may pretend...
It disheartens me that our fellows express astonishment rather than ire that the system works at all - a tribute to a naivete built of gossamer threads, oblivious to the heaving masses just below, that await nothing more than the day that they can rise up against an undefended people...
And I know you know it.
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Some folks instinctively run toward the sound of trouble.
The CNN guy cracks me up, saying it is uncertain whether the shooter died of wounds inflicted near the church or by his own hand. (If he had already died of previously inflicted wounds, how would he have shot himself?)
Can't watch video, but...couldn't the guy have bled out from earlier wounds?
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When I heard about this shooting, it made my physically ill. I can't imagine the hate this man must have had.
May God wrap His loving arms around these precious people.
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Can't watch video, but...couldn't the guy have bled out from earlier wounds?
My point being that if he'd bled out, how would he shoot himself? Sure, something killed him, but it's tough to shoot yourself after you're dead (unless you have been hanging out with the Clintons).
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Perhaps, but the point is whether gun registries and criminal registries literally stop criminals from getting guns. That my friend, is utter fallacy... a position which your sojourns dressed in gypsy leather, if no other reasons, should have left you readily disabused of any modicum of truth it may pretend...
It disheartens me that our fellows express astonishment rather than ire that the system works at all - a tribute to a naivete built of gossamer threads, oblivious to the heaving masses just below, that await nothing more than the day that they can rise up against an undefended people...
And I know you know it.
Sure I know it. I was just looking for crimes that the NICS might, once in a while, prevent.
We both know that if a serious criminal wants a gun, they'll have one within 24 hours or be back in custody over trying to, and the smart money is on the former. Crazy people aren't stupid, they're crazy. They can plan and scheme and do some pretty elaborate stuff--as elaborate as the delusions that drive them.
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GIGO. It didn't work because it wasn't followed by the agencies which should have reported the problem in the first place, so the firearm could not have been legally purchased. A relatively minor impediment, but one that may have heralded a problem that was developing. That would not have stopped the determined criminal form getting one, but it would have stopped him from purchasing the rifle legally.
However, that law didn't work. Because his priors had not been reported by the Air Force, and likely another law (HIPAA) prevented the release of the mental Health information that also could have been enough to prevent that sale or flag the attempt.
We don't need any more stinking laws. We need for the people who are charged with enforcing those laws to do so, with the laws we have.
In the mean time, If I want to buy, sell, or trade my legally owned firearms with another person, someone who is not a criminal or mentally deficient, I am free to do so. If something seems sketchy about that, i am always free to nix the deal, and would feel morally obligated to not conduct a private deal.
Concentrating on the tool ignores the hand that wields it, and imho, that is the problem here, not the same type of rifle that ended the rampage, but the type of person behind it.
In the context of this particular crime, I agree that there was already a law in place and the lack of enforcement of that law (i.e., the Air Force's failure to provide the information to fill the data base) is the issue.
But the larger issue, as you and roamer have cited, is ease at which bad guys can illegally obtain guns. I've heard the response that no new laws are needed because criminals can "always" get the guns they need. In a nation where the number of guns far outstrips the number of people, illegal transfers of firearms are simply a fact of life, and the carnage caused by illegal guns is the price we pay for living in this country.
I can't agree with that. That is why I continue to advocate a similar regime as we require for motor vehicle ownership - registration and insurance. Own as many guns as you want, so long as they are registered and insured.
The insurance I'd propose is similar to PIP insurance that most states require of car owners. Simple no-fault insurance that will pay the medical bills and restore lost income to the victims of injury caused by an insured gun. The way I'd work it is to require insurance up until the time when a gun is legally sold, transferred or reported lost to the police. That will provide a monetary incentive to report sales, transfers and losses, and to keep guns safely stored so as to prevent losses. It would help address the abuse where sellers don't have your sense of moral obligation not to conduct a private sale when the buyer is "sketchy". Conduct a private sale or swap, but only upon such conditions that permit your obligation to continue to insure that gun to be lifted.
We live with such requirements routinely with our cars - useful but potentially deadly implements just as guns are. The burden of insurance causes us to make sure unauthorized use is monitored, and that transactions take place with proper transfer of title and registration.
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In the context of this particular crime, I agree that there was already a law in place and the lack of enforcement of that law (i.e., the Air Force's failure to provide the information to fill the data base) is the issue.
But the larger issue, as you and roamer have cited, is ease at which bad guys can illegally obtain guns. I've heard the response that no new laws are needed because criminals can "always" get the guns they need. In a nation where the number of guns far outstrips the number of people, illegal transfers of firearms are simply a fact of life, and the carnage caused by illegal guns is the price we pay for living in this country.
I can't agree with that. That is why I continue to advocate a similar regime as we require for motor vehicle ownership - registration and insurance. Own as many guns as you want, so long as they are registered and insured.
The insurance I'd propose is similar to PIP insurance that most states require of car owners. Simple no-fault insurance that will pay the medical bills and restore lost income to the victims of injury caused by an insured gun. The way I'd work it is to require insurance up until the time when a gun is legally sold, transferred or reported lost to the police. That will provide a monetary incentive to report sales, transfers and losses, and to keep guns safely stored so as to prevent losses. It would help address the abuse where sellers don't have your sense of moral obligation not to conduct a private sale when the buyer is "sketchy". Conduct a private sale or swap, but only upon such conditions that permit your obligation to continue to insure that gun to be lifted.
We live with such requirements routinely with our cars - useful but potentially deadly implements just as guns are. The burden of insurance causes us to make sure unauthorized use is monitored, and that transactions take place with proper transfer of title and registration.
It seems to be contradictory line of thought. The ease of buying stolen or illegal property negates the effectiveness of registering and insuring guns. Especially the insuring part. Your existing insurance is not going to cover you for illegals actions on your part. It will be the same guns. Do you think the owner of a stolen car is responsible to provide the medical insurance for the people the thief runs over?
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I can't agree with that. That is why I continue to advocate a similar regime as we require for motor vehicle ownership - registration and insurance. Own as many guns as you want, so long as they are registered and insured.
Registration of all guns? Nope. And your concept of "insurance" is just a back-door way of inflating the cost.
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It seems to be contradictory line of thought. The ease of buying stolen or illegal property negates the effectiveness of registering and insuring guns. Especially the insuring part. Your existing insurance is not going to cover you for illegals actions on your part. It will be the same guns. Do you think the owner of a stolen car is responsible to provide the medical insurance for the people the thief runs over?
I'm suggesting a simple no-fault rule - insurance to pay for the medical bills of persons caused by a gun under your ostensible custody and control.
I believe the rule is that you can be held liable for the damage your car causes to others, including by reason of unauthorized use, unless and until the car is reported stolen or missing. That's what I'm trying to get at here - a regime of liability for damage done by a gun under your custody and control provides an incentive to report thefts (and to keep a gun stored safely to deter thefts), since the filing of a police report absolves you of liability.
From an insurance company website:
Informing your insurance carrier of the vehicle theft could help protect you if the thief causes damage to others with your car. Your liability coverages normally don't cover damages that your stolen car does to others since you cannot usually be held liable when the car is under the control of a thief.
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It seems to be contradictory line of thought. The ease of buying stolen or illegal property negates the effectiveness of registering and insuring guns. Especially the insuring part. Your existing insurance is not going to cover you for illegals actions on your part. It will be the same guns. Do you think the owner of a stolen car is responsible to provide the medical insurance for the people the thief runs over?
Seems eminently logical, which is why a liberal will never agree.
Some people continue pounding the idea that guns are the problem and it is that bad people are the problem instead.
This guy would have killed more people if he had simply locked the doors of the church and torched it.
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Registration of all guns? Nope. And your concept of "insurance" is just a back-door way of inflating the cost.
Yes, insurance carries a cost. I know that twice a year when I cut a check. But my car is both useful to me and potentially dangerous to others. So I must both register and insure it.
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Some people continue pounding the idea that guns are the problem and it is that bad people are the problem instead.
Both are the problem. You cannot deny that a gun - like an automobile - is an inherently dangerous implement. Registration and insurance can be an effective means of helping to deter guns from falling into the hands of bad people.
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Some thoughts on the " Good guy with a gun" Stephen Willeford who put two bullets into the shooter. Thank God for him. Who knows how many more may have died. Maybe he was planning on hiting another church, or maybe police hurt in a shootout, who knows. But a lesson to be had here. Once his gun safe was open he had to grab a box of bullets and load the empty magazine to his AR-15. How many people were killed with the pop pop pop sound he said he was hearing as he loaded the magazine? I' sure that thought was rolling in his head as well, for what must have seemed like an eternity.
A gun in a safe is perfectly fine, essecially if you have kids, but have it ready to rock as soon as the safe is open. Empty magazines make no sense.
888high58888 Excellent point Navy!
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So you're against keeping a data base of folks with felony convictions that gun stores must check before selling a firearm? According to Hoodat, that law prevents 48,000 legal sales per year.
How many illegal sales did it prevent, @Jazzhead? I can think of a few right now, can you?
@Cyber Liberty
Just to be clear, I never said that the law prevents 48,000 'legal' sales per year. I am saying that failure to prosecute these felonious attempts is the reason there were 48,000 attempts.
@Jazzhead , look at it this way. For the sake of argument, let's say the background checks have a 98% success rate. So for the 48,000 who got caught, there were another 980 who did not. That's 980 convicted felons who made it through the background check process and 'legally' purchased firearms.
So considering your 2% failure rate, would you rather have 49,000 felons attempting to purchase firearms each year, or would you rather have only 500. I don't know about your math, but 2% of 500 is a hell of a lot less than 2% of 48,980. And what is the best way to reduce that 49,890 number? Start prosecuting felons who get caught lying on Form 4473.
Because catching 490 out of 500 felons trying to purchase guns should be the target here instead of catching 48,000 out of 48,980.
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Yes, insurance carries a cost. I know that twice a year when I cut a check. But my car is both useful to me and potentially dangerous to others. So I must both register and insure it.
There isn't a constitutionally affirmed right to a car. Your car analogy is invalid. it's just another attempt to boost the cost of asserting a constitutional right.
You have been pulling our legs about being "pro-Second Amendment." It's a shame, too.
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Registration and insurance can be an effective means of helping to deter guns from falling into the hands of bad people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
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There isn't a constitutionally affirmed right to a car. Your car analogy is invalid. it's just another attempt to boost the cost of asserting a constitutional right.
You have been pulling our legs about being "pro-Second Amendment." It's a shame, too.
And how come we continue to insure inanimate objects (cars) which can do absolutely nothing without human intervention? Shouldn't we be insuring drivers instead of cars? Except for the insurance lobby we would be!
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You cannot deny that a gun - like an automobile - is an inherently dangerous implement.
So is drain cleaner, steak knives and boiling water.
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And how come we continue to insure inanimate objects (cars) which can do absolutely nothing without human intervention? Shouldn't we be insuring drivers instead of cars? Except for the insurance lobby we would be!
The idiocy premise here is that because of insurance laws, there are zero uninsured cars today.
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Both are the problem. You cannot deny that a gun - like an automobile - is an inherently dangerous implement. Registration and insurance can be an effective means of helping to deter guns from falling into the hands of bad people.
@Jazzhead
Registration would surely get rid of weapons - yours included since the govn. would know every weapon you have and come and take it/them. Weapons were registered in Australia and when they passed a law to get rid of weapons, they knew where each one was - now, no one there has a weapon. I suggest you go live there where there are no weapons.
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Both are the problem. You cannot deny that a gun - like an automobile - is an inherently dangerous implement. Registration and insurance can be an effective means of helping to deter guns from falling into the hands of bad people.
That is such a stupid argument to take. A knife is dangerous - so register it. Fire is dangerous - so register matches. The list goes on, the same as your blather.
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Weapons were registered in Australia and when they passed a law to get rid of weapons, they knew where each one was - now, no one there has a weapon.
Criminals do.
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That is such a stupid argument to take. A knife is dangerous - so register it. Fire is dangerous - so register matches. The list goes on, the same as your blather.
Knives, forks, and spoons are undoubtable the biggest health risks most people face!
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I am sorry, @Hoodat, I completely misrepresented what you really said. Forgive me, I knew better....
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Knives, forks, and spoons are undoubtable the biggest health risks most people face!
Damned straight! Look what they've done to Rosie O'Donnell and Michael Moore.
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The idiocy premise here is that because of insurance laws, there are zero uninsured cars today.
LOL! Yeah! Except those driven by every illegal you might encounter!
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LOL! Yeah! Except those driven by every illegal you might encounter!
They don't pay, but everybody else does with the fee for "Uninsured Motorists."
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I am sorry, @Hoodat, I completely misrepresented what you really said. Forgive me, I knew better....
It wasn't you. It was Jazzhead.
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They don't pay, but everybody else does with the fee for "Uninsured Motorists."
QFT! The insurance lobby is VERY powerful indeed!
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Yes, insurance carries a cost. I know that twice a year when I cut a check. But my car is both useful to me and potentially dangerous to others. So I must both register and insure it.
Only if you drive it on public roads. You are not required to do so if you keep it only your property. That may sound silly to you, but where I live, plenty have farm trucks that never touch pavement. Just owning the vehicle does not require you to register and insure. Same with collectibles not driven.
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In Alabama, auto insurance is not mandatory. In Virginia, one can pay a fee to the Commonwealth to be exempt from the insurance requirement.
Each State has different laws. But the one certainty here is that laws do not control criminals.
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That is such a stupid argument to take. A knife is dangerous - so register it. Fire is dangerous - so register matches. The list goes on, the same as your blather.
Cars and guns are uniquely useful, and uniquely dangerous. Interestingly, according to the CDC, in 2014 the age-adjusted death rate for both firearms (including homicides, suicides and accidental deaths) and motor vehicle events (car crashes, collisions between cars and pedestrians, etc.) was almost exactly the same - 10.3 deaths per 100,000 people.
In years past, cars killed far more than guns did, but in recent years that trend has reversed, as car deaths per capita have fallen considerably. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years as well, but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. (Suicides account for approximately 2 out of 3 gun deaths, according to the CDC.)
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Cars and guns are uniquely useful, and uniquely dangerous. Interestingly, according to the CDC, in 2014 the age-adjusted death rate for both firearms (including homicides, suicides and accidental deaths) and motor vehicle events (car crashes, collisions between cars and pedestrians, etc.) was almost exactly the same - 10.3 deaths per 100,000 people.
In years past, cars killed far more than guns did, but in recent years that trend has reversed, as car deaths per capita have fallen considerably. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years as well, but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. (Suicides account for approximately 2 out of 3 gun deaths, according to the CDC.)
And very strict gun control does not impact suicide rates.
Ezra Klein Is Wrong: Gun Control Doesn’t Reduce Suicide Rates
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/423192/ezra-klein-wrong-gun-control-doesnt-reduce-suicide-rates-mark-antonio-wright
...most guns are illegal in Japan and gun-ownership rates are extremely low, the country has the lowest gun-homicide rate in the world at one in 10 million. According to Vox’s theory, Japan should have a similarly low suicide rate — but that’s not what you see at all. Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, nearly twice the U.S. rate....
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In years past, cars killed far more than guns did, but in recent years that trend has reversed, as car deaths per capita have fallen considerably. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years as well, but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. (Suicides account for approximately 2 out of 3 gun deaths, according to the CDC.)
DAMN! Cars kill people all by themselves! Who knew! /s
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In years past, cars killed far more than guns did, but in recent years that trend has reversed, as car deaths per capita have fallen considerably. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years as well, but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. (Suicides account for approximately 2 out of 3 gun deaths, according to the CDC.)
So, you still haven't gotten off the "Inanimate objects can kill" kick. I've been waiting for years for my car and weapons to go on a killing spree, and they still haven't.
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So, you still haven't gotten off the "Inanimate objects can kill" kick. I've been waiting for years for my car and weapons to go on a killing spree, and they still haven't.
I would suggest that your wait will exceed your lifespan!
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In the context of this particular crime, I agree that there was already a law in place and the lack of enforcement of that law (i.e., the Air Force's failure to provide the information to fill the data base) is the issue.
But the larger issue, as you and roamer have cited, is ease at which bad guys can illegally obtain guns. I've heard the response that no new laws are needed because criminals can "always" get the guns they need. In a nation where the number of guns far outstrips the number of people, illegal transfers of firearms are simply a fact of life, and the carnage caused by illegal guns is the price we pay for living in this country.
Nope, you still missed the point. No new laws will do one damned thing to stop those criminals from obtaining guns.
If they can't steal or buy them, they will build them. If they can import cocaine, run sex slaves internationally, penetrate international borders, obtain or manufacture explosives and weapons of war, what makes you think the dribbling of ink on a piece of paper is going to stop them?
As if a paper that said says "You can't invade" stopped Attila the Hun or the sack of Rome.
The law will not stop people who are determined to to not follow the law.
Another law, by weight of the law books, by preponderance of regulation, will not make one whit of difference. Especially when all the existing laws against a felon (or military equivalent), domestic abuser, and mental patient with a history of violence having a firearm didn't work: he was not stopped by the law.
I can't agree with that. That is why I continue to advocate a similar regime as we require for motor vehicle ownership - registration and insurance. Own as many guns as you want, so long as they are registered and insured.
The insurance I'd propose is similar to PIP insurance that most states require of car owners. Simple no-fault insurance that will pay the medical bills and restore lost income to the victims of injury caused by an insured gun. The way I'd work it is to require insurance up until the time when a gun is legally sold, transferred or reported lost to the police. That will provide a monetary incentive to report sales, transfers and losses, and to keep guns safely stored so as to prevent losses. It would help address the abuse where sellers don't have your sense of moral obligation not to conduct a private sale when the buyer is "sketchy". Conduct a private sale or swap, but only upon such conditions that permit your obligation to continue to insure that gun to be lifted.
We live with such requirements routinely with our cars - useful but potentially deadly implements just as guns are. The burden of insurance causes us to make sure unauthorized use is monitored, and that transactions take place with proper transfer of title and registration.
Oh no. No effing way. I currently carry insurance on six vehicles, and whether I am driving them all at the same time or not, I am still required to carry that insurance. My state is NOT a no-fault state, and for that reason I can afford that, because my premiums are based on my conduct as a driver, and my record of doing so safely, not on the behaviour of every idiot who just moved here from out of state who thinks they know how to drive on snow and ice.
Because my premiums don't include paying for the actions of others (a socialist concept) and instead hinge on MY actions, I can afford those vehicles as an operational expense. That insurance costs me less for the fleet than one bad driver pays for one vehicle, and I should not have to pick up the tab for that bad driver.
But carrying insurance on a firearm which might sit in the cabinet and not see the light of day for months, sometimes a year or more, is ridiculous and could only be an onerous regulation designed to make it entirely too expensive to keep a large number of firearms.
Equally ridiculous is the concept that having a large number (whatever you consider a "large" number to be) of firearms is more dangerous than only having one or two. In fact, that one man with 100 firearms is just going to have to make quite a few trips to carry them all. As a practical matter (and despite all that two-fisted special effects trick shooting on tee vee) you only shoot one at a time--it is that one which makes a difference, not the dozen(s) in the gun safe.
Those I have known with only that one rifle are VERY good with it, they know every quirk about it, the ballistics, the holdover at distance, (bullet drop) whether it shoots a little to the right or left of the factory sights, and can generally pick a gnat off a fly's ass at 100 yards without ruffling the wings of the fly using that one rifle. The guy who owns a hundred rifles can't just pull one out at random generally, and be nearly so accurate (he might hit the fly, too).
So, without affecting the ability of a person to be accurate, put rounds down range, to hit a target, the law you propose would just assail a collector with another layer of ongoing expense. Just NO.
And then there is the very real risk of those lists of firearms being hacked to provide targets for criminals to come and steal the firearms.
De-milling (rendering them a pretty piece of non-functional junk) is not an option, either, because that is just the destruction of guns, not allowing some collector to collect guns without the burden of registration and your insurance scheme. Within a couple years of the 1968 GCA, a fellow named Kenyon Ballew was gunned down during a BATF raid based on a hot tip that he had grenades sitting on his mantel. They were not live grenades, but inert practice grenades. That didn't stop the depredations he and his wife were subjected to, nor keep him from being shot in the head by the agents there to seize explosive devices that did not exist. For that reason I will never have anything in my home which only 'looks like' something. It will be legal and functional or it won't be there.
In fact, that insurance/gun registration law would only guarantee another crop of criminals produced not on the 'mean streets', but in the legislature as some bunch of nitwits pass yet another law that makes the thing you were doing (or not doing) legally yesterday illegal tomorrow.
You see, to use your example, we have laws requiring people to carry liability insurance on motor vehicles.
They get ignored, in spite of there being a law, and so often do they get ignored, that part of my auto insurance coverage is for "uninsured motorists" who might run into me.
With millions of firearms out there, a significant number of which have never been recorded on a Form 4473 (that started in 1968), what makes you think that people would run in to register their guns by insuring them individually?
All that law would do is make those firearms without paperwork on them that much more valuable in the real market of cash or trade.
And, back to the original problem, it would do nothing to keep violent people with mental health problems from hurting others. It will, at most force a slight change in tactics. Maybe he would have used a couple of machetes instead?
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Cars and guns are uniquely useful, and uniquely dangerous. Interestingly, according to the CDC, in 2014 the age-adjusted death rate for both firearms (including homicides, suicides and accidental deaths) and motor vehicle events (car crashes, collisions between cars and pedestrians, etc.) was almost exactly the same - 10.3 deaths per 100,000 people.
In years past, cars killed far more than guns did, but in recent years that trend has reversed, as car deaths per capita have fallen considerably. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years as well, but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. (Suicides account for approximately 2 out of 3 gun deaths, according to the CDC.)
Well, DUH! It is a lot harder to drive over yourself with a car. (not saying it hasn't been done, just that it is a lot harder.)
So, take away guns and then what? Knives, pain killers, jumping off tall buildings/bridges? Beat themselves to death with a stick? I'm not making light of the emotional distress and despair that might lead someone to commit suicide--in fact, there is a level of determination there that has already overcome the very real will to survive, one of the most basic instincts.
What makes you think that level of determination will be thwarted by requiring a different method?
Again, it is the person involved who needs help, there, who was either not endowed with coping skills by their environment, upbringing, or suffering from illness or the events of life, or who found some other compelling reason, (however arcane their logic may have been) to decide dead was better. Changing the method does not address the question or problems of why they are in the state they are in, why they believe strongly enough to overcome that very basic instinct to survive. You want to stop suicides? Address those issues, not the tool used to complete the act. You might as well have rope control, dull knives in the kitchen, and ban large nails and other pointy things.
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Both are the problem. You cannot deny that a gun - like an automobile - is an inherently dangerous implement. Registration and insurance can be an effective means of helping to deter guns from falling into the hands of bad people.
I can't recall a Single Instance of a gun leaping up off a table by itself and shooting someone.
Registration and Insurance?
Two incredibly stupid ideas.
What they'd do is create a paper trail right back to the owner making it a million times easier for the likes of Schumer, Feinstein, and Holder to come pick them AND YOU up anytime they take a fancy to.
The NRA isn't the rock solid be all end all at protecting gun rights, but they've gone to Court many times already to get DOJ to destroy illegal databases they've compiled of gun owners culled from the 4473 background check form buyers have to fill out. They're supposed to be destroyed after the sale, not used to track who owns guns, and for damn good reason.
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I can't recall a Single Instance of a gun leaping up off a table by itself and shooting someone.
Registration and Insurance?
Two incredibly stupid ideas.
What they'd do is create a paper trail right back to the owner making it a million times easier for the likes of Schumer, Feinstein, and Holder to come pick them AND YOU up anytime they take a fancy to.
The NRA isn't the rock solid be all end all at protecting gun rights, but they've gone to Court many times already to get DOJ to destroy illegal databases they've compiled of gun owners culled from the 4473 background check form buyers have to fill out. They're supposed to be destroyed after the sale, not used to track who owns guns, and for damn good reason.
Actually, the Form 4473s are supposed to be kept on file by the dealer who sold the firearm. They get turned in if the dealer goes out of business or does not renew their FFL, for whatever reason. It is the NICS data which is supposed to be destroyed according to law, and yes, the BATF (and DOJ) has been taken to task over that data being compiled and stored.
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And, back to the original problem, it would do nothing to keep violent people with mental health EVIL, (since the majority of folks wearing mental health labels are 5 times less likely to become violent than the ones without those labels) problems from hurting others. It will, at most force a slight change in tactics. Maybe he would have used a couple of machetes instead?
We've BTDT. Can't own a gun in China.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html
"China was hit by a spate of knife and cleaver attacks that targeted school children in 2010.
A number of measures were introduced at the time, including increased security at schools across the country and a regulation requiring people to register with their national ID cards when buying large knives."
Do we want to have to present a photo ID card and Govt license at Home Depot or Target to be ALLOWED to buy a knife?
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Nope, you still missed the point. No new laws will do one damned thing to stop those criminals from obtaining guns.
If they can't steal or buy them, they will build them. If they can import cocaine, run sex slaves internationally, penetrate international borders, obtain or manufacture explosives and weapons of war, what makes you think the dribbling of ink on a piece of paper is going to stop them?
As if a paper that said says "You can't invade" stopped Attila the Hun or the sack of Rome.
The law will not stop people who are determined to to not follow the law.
Another law, by weight of the law books, by preponderance of regulation, will not make one whit of difference. Especially when all the existing laws against a felon (or military equivalent), domestic abuser, and mental patient with a history of violence having a firearm didn't work: he was not stopped by the law. Oh no. No effing way. I currently carry insurance on six vehicles, and whether I am driving them all at the same time or not, I am still required to carry that insurance. My state is NOT a no-fault state, and for that reason I can afford that, because my premiums are based on my conduct as a driver, and my record of doing so safely, not on the behaviour of every idiot who just moved here from out of state who thinks they know how to drive on snow and ice.
Because my premiums don't include paying for the actions of others (a socialist concept) and instead hinge on MY actions, I can afford those vehicles as an operational expense. That insurance costs me less for the fleet than one bad driver pays for one vehicle, and I should not have to pick up the tab for that bad driver.
But carrying insurance on a firearm which might sit in the cabinet and not see the light of day for months, sometimes a year or more, is ridiculous and could only be an onerous regulation designed to make it entirely too expensive to keep a large number of firearms.
Equally ridiculous is the concept that having a large number (whatever you consider a "large" number to be) of firearms is more dangerous than only having one or two. In fact, that one man with 100 firearms is just going to have to make quite a few trips to carry them all. As a practical matter (and despite all that two-fisted special effects trick shooting on tee vee) you only shoot one at a time--it is that one which makes a difference, not the dozen(s) in the gun safe.
Those I have known with only that one rifle are VERY good with it, they know every quirk about it, the ballistics, the holdover at distance, (bullet drop) whether it shoots a little to the right or left of the factory sights, and can generally pick a gnat off a fly's ass at 100 yards without ruffling the wings of the fly using that one rifle. The guy who owns a hundred rifles can't just pull one out at random generally, and be nearly so accurate (he might hit the fly, too).
So, without affecting the ability of a person to be accurate, put rounds down range, to hit a target, the law you propose would just assail a collector with another layer of ongoing expense. Just NO.
And then there is the very real risk of those lists of firearms being hacked to provide targets for criminals to come and steal the firearms.
De-milling (rendering them a pretty piece of non-functional junk) is not an option, either, because that is just the destruction of guns, not allowing some collector to collect guns without the burden of registration and your insurance scheme. Within a couple years of the 1968 GCA, a fellow named Kenyon Ballew was gunned down during a BATF raid based on a hot tip that he had grenades sitting on his mantel. They were not live grenades, but inert practice grenades. That didn't stop the depredations he and his wife were subjected to, nor keep him from being shot in the head by the agents there to seize explosive devices that did not exist. For that reason I will never have anything in my home which only 'looks like' something. It will be legal and functional or it won't be there.
In fact, that insurance/gun registration law would only guarantee another crop of criminals produced not on the 'mean streets', but in the legislature as some bunch of nitwits pass yet another law that makes the thing you were doing (or not doing) legally yesterday illegal tomorrow.
You see, to use your example, we have laws requiring people to carry liability insurance on motor vehicles.
They get ignored, in spite of there being a law, and so often do they get ignored, that part of my auto insurance coverage is for "uninsured motorists" who might run into me.
With millions of firearms out there, a significant number of which have never been recorded on a Form 4473 (that started in 1968), what makes you think that people would run in to register their guns by insuring them individually?
All that law would do is make those firearms without paperwork on them that much more valuable in the real market of cash or trade.
And, back to the original problem, it would do nothing to keep violent people with mental health problems from hurting others. It will, at most force a slight change in tactics. Maybe he would have used a couple of machetes instead?
@Smokin Joe
Your well-reasoned arguments fall on the deaf years of the illogical who are incapable of critical thinking. But I enjoy your posts.
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@Smokin Joe
Your well-reasoned arguments fall on the deaf years of the illogical who are incapable of critical thinking. But I enjoy your posts.
Why, thank you! And yes, I know I won't convince the poster, but feel duty bound to shred their arguments anyway.
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The absurdity of registration and insurance requirements display again the idiocy of making it harder to keep and maintain guns for legal, law abiding applicants, while not doing a damn single thing to the kind of guy who is likely to use a gun in a criminal fashion.
While more and more pressure is brought to bear upon the simpleton who complied with such a law through ever increasing insurance rates and ever more compliance hoops (inspections to make certain you have your guns stored in an approved and required safe, and are all equipped with approved and required trigger locks) either by the government or by its partner, the insurance company, NOTHING AT ALL is done to those willing to skirt the law and use guns to commit crimes. NOTHING AT ALL is done to the gangbangers and drug lords who continue on their merry way, wholly unmolested.
And me, of course... Because there's no way n hell I would comply and register a damn thing. Although my state, which has already successfully bucked Uncle Fed several times, would stand up again for itself and tell the fed to stick it where the sun don't shine might just make the whole damn idea a moot point.
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The law will not stop people who are determined to to not follow the law.
That's not a justification for dispensing with the law.
Another law, by weight of the law books, by preponderance of regulation, will not make one whit of difference. Especially when all the existing laws against a felon (or military equivalent), domestic abuser, and mental patient with a history of violence having a firearm didn't work: he was not stopped by the law.
You're right - he wasn't. But the problem wasn't the law - it was that data needed to allow the law to work wasn't provided. Garbage in, garbage out. Oh no. No effing way. I currently carry insurance on six vehicles, and whether I am driving them all at the same time or not, I am still required to carry that insurance. My state is NOT a no-fault state, and for that reason I can afford that, because my premiums are based on my conduct as a driver, and my record of doing so safely, not on the behaviour of every idiot who just moved here from out of state who thinks they know how to drive on snow and ice.
You may have a point there - there may be reasons to structure insurance for guns on other than a no-fault basis. I was advocating no-fault for reasons of simplicity - no fault laws sure help reduce the need for lawyers, and that's usually a good thing.
But carrying insurance on a firearm which might sit in the cabinet and not see the light of day for months, sometimes a year or more, is ridiculous and could only be an onerous regulation designed to make it entirely too expensive to keep a large number of firearms.
Insurance companies price on the basis of risk. If as you say owning 100 guns is no less risky than owning one, then objective underwriting will reflect that.
Again, to me the value of registration/insurance is to provide an incentive to report stolen guns, and effect sales and transfers in a way that will lift liability from the seller and transfer it to the buyer - just as is the case today with cars.
Yes, these are obligations imposed on law-abiding gun owners. But they go to the issue of too many guns ending up in the hands of folks who aren't law abiding. Registering and insuring your guns, it seems to me, is far more efficacious in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than blanket bans on certain types of guns. The Dems' proposals are for show; what I propose goes to the heart of the problem - keeping track of guns so the law-abiding can enjoy them, and others can be denied them.
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just as is the case today with cars.
You keep using the car analogy and keep ignoring me when I point out it is not required for owning, only for using on public roads.
If that is the basis for the requirement, then require insurance to publicly carry, not to own.
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What they'd do is create a paper trail right back to the owner making it a million times easier for the likes of Schumer, Feinstein, and Holder to come pick them AND YOU up anytime they take a fancy to.
That's paranoia. I reject that mindset. The ease at which criminals can obtain guns in a nation awash with them is a problem that cries out for a solution. What I propose is reasonable, efficacious and consistent with the Second Amendment as interpreted by Heller.
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You keep using the car analogy and keep ignoring me when I point out it is not required for owning, only for using on public roads.
If that is the basis for the requirement, then require insurance to publicly carry, not to own.
It's an analogy, not an exact parallel. A car that's undriven and kept in a garage isn't dangerous. Whether a car or a gun, insurance should be required when the implement is to be used for its intended purpose.
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It's an analogy, not an exact parallel. A car that's undriven and kept in a garage isn't dangerous. Whether a car or a gun, insurance should be required when the implement is to be used for its intended purpose.
Again, I can use my farm truck every day, all day long. Still doesn't require insurance and registration.
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That's paranoia. I reject that mindset. The ease at which criminals can obtain guns in a nation awash with them is a problem that cries out for a solution. What I propose is reasonable, efficacious and consistent with the Second Amendment as interpreted by Heller.
It is neither reasonable nor efficacious. It is laughable and ridiculous. And it does absolutely *nothing* to impede the ease with which criminals acquire guns.
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What a surprise! @Jazzhead coming down on the wrong side of liberty...again!
You can take YOUR “reasonable and efficacious” and shove it. I find your “solutions” neither. Keep your grubby little mitts off of MY freedom.
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What a surprise! @Jazzhead coming down on the wrong side of liberty...again!
You can take YOUR “reasonable and efficacious” and shove it. I find your “solutions” neither. Keep your grubby little mitts off of MY freedom.
You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
The more I think about it, I agree with SJ that no-fault insurance probably unfairly penalizes responsible gun owners. Just as insurance underwriters can skillfully predict liability with respect to good drivers vs. bad drivers, so can they predict and price risk with respect to responsible vs. irresponsible gun owners.
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That's not a justification for dispensing with the law.
You're right - he wasn't. But the problem wasn't the law - it was that data needed to allow the law to work wasn't provided. Garbage in, garbage out.
You may have a point there - there may be reasons to structure insurance for guns on other than a no-fault basis. I was advocating no-fault for reasons of simplicity - no fault laws sure help reduce the need for lawyers, and that's usually a good thing.
Insurance companies price on the basis of risk. If as you say owning 100 guns is no less risky than owning one, then objective underwriting will reflect that.
Again, to me the value of registration/insurance is to provide an incentive to report stolen guns, and effect sales and transfers in a way that will lift liability from the seller and transfer it to the buyer - just as is the case today with cars.
Yes, these are obligations imposed on law-abiding gun owners. But they go to the issue of too many guns ending up in the hands of folks who aren't law abiding. Registering and insuring your guns, it seems to me, is far more efficacious in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than blanket bans on certain types of guns. The Dems' proposals are for show; what I propose goes to the heart of the problem - keeping track of guns so the law-abiding can enjoy them, and others can be denied them.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. No one said to dispense with the law, just that no additional law would be effective. And it won't. If the law the Government passed was ineffective because part of the Government that passed that law was not following the law, what makes you think any one else is going to feel bound by an additional law?
As for insurance, let's suppose the shooter had policies on all his guns. Then what? The miracuolous insurance fairy would have just flitted over the scene and restored everyone to life and good health?
No, that wouldn't have fixed anything either, would it?
Perhaps the shooter would have just left the guns uninsured? What's one more broken law when he was bent on murder and mayhem, anyway? If he planned to suicide, what are you going to do to him?
Or maybe he would have gone to Denver and bought one of the firearms stolen by the junkie swarm to get money for their next fix. No paperwork no background check, no muss, no fuss, and @roamer_1 's point--those who want 'em will find a way to get 'em.
Or maybe they'd just have made one, like these guys (or gone to someone who can): http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/30/gunsmithing-in-pakistan/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/30/gunsmithing-in-pakistan/)https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4de_1371777808 (https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4de_1371777808)
If you think there aren't enough out of work machinists to produce firearms/parts in America, think again.
Insuring guns amounts to registering guns which amounts to an actionable database of gun owners who can be persecuted for whatever reason. History proves such to be the beginning of the end of a free nation. I will not participate.
I have six vehicles on the pavement. Insurance for any one of them costs what it does because, in part, of the paperwork and records which must be maintained for that one insurance policy on that one vehicle. Require a hundred policies for a hundred vehicles, those administrative costs do not go away, they are multiplied an hundredfold. That expense does not go away, whether your record is long and clear of any violations or accidents or not, all that gets less in the amount you pay for the liability aspect because you have been deemed low risk.
I carry personal liability in the unlikely event there is some thing I do which causes injury to another. That insures the actions (or culpable inaction) of ME, not any device which I may be using, or which may be in a closet, on a shelf, parked in a garage, or locked away in a safe instead of in my hand.
You would act as if the device is at fault for the actions of another demented human, and not just his device but the devices that spent their weekend tucked away in gun cases, closets, gun safes, or in a pickup somewhere, and you would shift the onus of the actions of a few who the law was supposed to prevent from doing their particular thing onto the backs of those who are doing no wrong and causing no one injury, who abided by all the laws.
What part of "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. are you having difficulty with?
It even goes back to Clause 39 of The Magna Carta
No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land
Yet another law is not the answer to the problem.
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You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
The more I think about it, I agree with SJ that no-fault insurance probably unfairly penalizes responsible gun owners. Just as insurance underwriters can skillfully predict liability with respect to good drivers vs. bad drivers, so can they predict and price risk with respect to responsible vs. irresponsible gun owners.
Let's get something straight. No I do not agree with requiring any insurance be carried by gun owners to own or carry a gun.
As for registration lists being used to confiscate guns, yes, it has been done on a widespread basis. Let's not take that first step.
Now what deadly risk do I expose others to by owning a gun, even carrying one, and how would I compensate others for exposing them to to this theoretical risk?
Give them dry panties or clean skivvies? Do I have to change them for them, too?
By your logic, the airlines expose me to risk every time there is a plane overhead.
Some jackwagon might decide to seize control of the plane and crash it into my house! 888ohnoes
You are putting the responsibility for the problem on the wrong people, proposing a solution that solves nothing, and making that at the expense and hardship of those who have done nothing to threaten nor harm anyone. That's the quintessential Government Liberal, in action.
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That's paranoia. I reject that mindset.
Go ahead and reject it, that's your right. What is not your right is for you to reject it on my behalf, against my will.
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Perhaps the shooter would have just left the guns uninsured? What's one more broken law when he was bent on murder and mayhem, anyway? If he planned to suicide, what are you going to do to him?
Hence the registration, where you will have to prove to the government your insurance is current or....
All this would do is disarm more law abiding poor and make it more expensive for the rest of us. No deterrent to those that are already decided to break the law.
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Why, thank you! And yes, I know I won't convince the poster, but feel duty bound to shred their arguments anyway.
Anyone with a sense of freedom will do the same, although you articulate more effectively.
Some are here that believe surrendering our freedoms is the only way to prevent crime.
There are two errors here: First, crime is not preventable. It can only be reduced. A criminal by his very nature cares less of laws.
Secondly, no patriotic American will voluntarily surrender his freedoms. Some who do not understand freedom will, but thankfully there are in the minority.
I visited areas of the world like Qaddafi Libya where there were few freedoms. Yes, I felt safe as few ventured to defy the totalitarian government as the penalty was severe. It was a sad country as everything was controlled by a power on high.
Did the loss of freedoms 'prevent' crime? No, but it sure minimized it.
It is not worth the cost.
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You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?
To my mind, it is people who DON'T own a weapon that are irresponsible, offering a soft target to an opportunistic criminal.
That's it. Pu$$y insurance. Make those foolish enough to offer no defense responsible.
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As for registration lists being used to confiscate guns, yes, it has been done on a widespread basis. Let's not take that first step.
Has registration ever NOT eventually led to confiscation? I can't think of a case where universal registration has not used for mass confiscation. I'm sure there must be one somewhere.
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WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?
To my mind, it is people who DON'T own a weapon that are irresponsible, offering a soft target to an opportunistic criminal.
That's it. Pu$$y insurance. Make those foolish enough to offer no defense responsible.
Pantywaist and milquetoast registration! Hoplophobes extra!
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Again, I can use my farm truck every day, all day long. Still doesn't require insurance and registration.
Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel. The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.
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Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel. The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.
NO! That was the exact point. The insurance and registration required for automobiles is due to WHERE it is used, not how it is used.
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Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel. The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.
You fail to discern that that implement is equally dangerous to those who do evil, if not more so.
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Again, it's an analogy, not an exact parallel. The need for insurance arises from the use of an inherently dangerous implement in the way it was intended.
If you use a vehicle in the way it is intended, you don't hit anything with it. No need to carry insurance for that, only when it is used in a way in which it was not intended, and you run into things.
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WHO is being irresponsible? Who the hell gets to define that?
The need to be responsible is inherent in the ownership of a deadly implement that has the capacity to harm others. Insurance can be priced to be less expensive for responsible gun owners than for irresponsible ones.
In technical jargon, the dilemma with gun (or automobile) ownership is that each involves "externalities" - the risk that the gun, or car, will be used to harm others. In the absence of insurance, folks fail to consider the broader social costs of choices like buying a gun or car. An insurance requirement is a practical and fair means for making potential owners of guns, or cars, take into account these potential social costs, and (by skillful underwriting) encourage responsible behavior by reducing premiums for such behavior.
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Arguing with Jazz is like playing chess with a Pidgeon! Have PHUNN!
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If you use a vehicle in the way it is intended, you don't hit anything with it. No need to carry insurance for that, only when it is used in a way in which it was not intended, and you run into things.
Accidents happen -with cars and with guns. Additionally, guns carry a significant risk of being stolen. Insurance encourages safe storage practices and prompt reporting of thefts.
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Accidents happen -with cars and with guns. Additionally, guns carry a significant risk of being stolen. Insurance encourages safe storage practices and prompt reporting of thefts.
Again, with the cars, how does having insurance or not having insurance change the way the car is stored? How does it affect the rate of being stolen?
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I found this Huffpo article while looking to find any cases where confiscation did not follow registration. Check out what this author (Tom Harvey), who desperately wants registration and confiscation if he deems it necessary, says about insurance (emphasis mine):
If firearm registration remains politically infeasible, there is another way to accomplish most of these goals. That is to have insurance, starting at manufacture and requiring continuance of insurer responsibility through all transfers unless replaced by new insurance. Readers who know my writing know I spend most of my time advocating such insurance in the face of massive resistance from both the gun and the insurance industry.
This is why I refuse to believe people who assure me their desire to register and insure guns are benign. They know exactly what they are proposing.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-harvey/gun-registration_b_5186200.html
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The need to be responsible is inherent in the ownership of a deadly implement that has the capacity to harm others. Insurance can be priced to be less expensive for responsible gun owners than for irresponsible ones.
In technical jargon, the dilemma with gun (or automobile) ownership is that each involves "externalities" - the risk that the gun, or car, will be used to harm others. In the absence of insurance, folks fail to consider the broader social costs of choices like buying a gun or car. An insurance requirement is a practical and fair means for making potential owners of guns, or cars, take into account these potential social costs, and (by skillful underwriting) encourage responsible behavior by reducing premiums for such behavior.
I not only have vehicles and firearms, I have tools. Used properly, these can fell trees, cut timbers or firewood, build a house, plumb it, wire it, etc.
Used improperly, those same tools I use to prepare dinner could be used to kill and dismember a person. Now, I have no desire nor intent to ever use my good chef's knife for something like that, nor any of the other tools I own, but that danger sure exists in the wrong hands. Carrying this ridiculous nonsense to its inevitable conclusion, any point object over 3 inches (the usual cutoff for a knife to be considered a "deadly weapon"), any edged device, any power tool (whether electric or gasoline power), any long handled garden implement (and some short handled ones) scissors, pencils, pens, sticks, bricks and rocks, wood chippers, compressed gasses, flammable liquids are all potentially deadly devices, and we haven't even gotten into elongated fibers and woven products like yarn, scarves, and neckties which could be utilized as ligatures, power cords, ropes, twine, and strapping tape, and then there are those evil buckets and plastic bags and zip ties (industrial sized). Well, shit, the list is endless.
Do we have to have separate insurance policies for all that stuff? Every one of those things could be and likely has been used as a murder weapon by someone. And then, to get back to basics, there are always sticks...especially the pointy ones, or ones stout enough to use as a club. Not to mention "blunt instruments, including hands and feet" which have been used in large numbers to kill people every year.
Cain smote Abel with a rock, the first documented murder weapon. Being a geologist, I have an assortment of nice rocks I brought in from the wild, tamed, and taught not to jump on people's heads and such, but will I get a discount because I am a professional or will I have to pay full rate for having rocks around?
Life is dangerous. No one gets out alive. :shrug: Handle it.
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I not only have vehicles and firearms, I have tools. Used properly, these can fell trees, cut timbers or firewood, build a house, plumb it, wire it, etc.
Used improperly, those same tools I use to prepare dinner could be used to kill and dismember a person. Now, I have no desire nor intent to ever use my good chef's knife for something like that, nor any of the other tools I own, but that danger sure exists in the wrong hands. Carrying this ridiculous nonsense to its inevitable conclusion, any point object over 3 inches (the usual cutoff for a knife to be considered a "deadly weapon"), any edged device, any power tool (whether electric or gasoline power), any long handled garden implement (and some short handled ones) scissors, pencils, pens, sticks, bricks and rocks, wood chippers, compressed gasses, flammable liquids are all potentially deadly devices, and we haven't even gotten into elongated fibers and woven products like yarn, scarves, and neckties which could be utilized as ligatures, power cords, ropes, twine, and strapping tape, and then there are those evil buckets and plastic bags and zip ties (industrial sized). Well, shit, the list is endless.
Do we have to have separate insurance policies for all that stuff? Every one of those things could be and likely has been used as a murder weapon by someone. And then, to get back to basics, there are always sticks...especially the pointy ones, or ones stout enough to use as a club. Not to mention "blunt instruments, including hands and feet" which have been used in large numbers to kill people every year.
Cain smote Abel with a rock, the first documented murder weapon. Being a geologist, I have an assortment of nice rocks I brought in from the wild, tamed, and taught not to jump on people's heads and such, but will I get a discount because I am a professional or will I have to pay full rate for having rocks around?
Life is dangerous. No one gets out alive. :shrug: Handle it.
You miss the point. Cars and guns are inherently, and chronically, dangerous, and the their use causes thousands of deaths and untold injuries each year. A person shot in the spine, for example, may be disabled and need care for the rest of his life. You have every right to own a gun, just as you have every right to own a car. But you do not have the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
Register and insure your cars. Register and insure your guns.
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I found this Huffpo article while looking to find any cases where confiscation did not follow registration. Check out what this author (Tom Harvey), who desperately wants registration and confiscation if he deems it necessary, says about insurance (emphasis mine):
This is why I refuse to believe people who assure me their desire to register and insure guns are benign. They know exactly what they are proposing.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-harvey/gun-registration_b_5186200.html
Harvey is a dumbass.
I grew up in Maryland, in the days when a guy could put a check in the envelope with an order form and the postman would deliver his gun. Still a lover of firearms, I am confronted by the fact that half of my gun cabinet is verboten in the state I grew up in. That's right, it'd be a crime to lock them in a steel chest in the back of my van and drive across the bridge from Virginia with those rifles, handguns, and a stack of tin boxes which can hold ammo, even if I didn't have a sing le cartridge in the vehicle. In fact, there would be so many Felony counts in that chest that they would let out every murderer in the state long before my sentence would expire.
For that reason, I seldom set foot there. I can't send my Dad a rifle I know he'd love to try out, even through a dealer, because it is illegal to own there and because some bedwetter has a fit if they try to think of a number bigger than '10'. That in a State where the mayor of a major City let looters have room to work it out, loot and burn.
As for Tom Harvey, Feel safe, fool. I'll stick to my guns.
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Again, with the cars, how does having insurance or not having insurance change the way the car is stored? How does it affect the rate of being stolen?
Underwriting. Those who practice safe storage practices get lower rates. Those who report thefts are relieved of liability. Simple put, mitigating the cost of insurance encourages responsible behavior.
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You miss the point. Cars and guns are inherently, and chronically, dangerous, and the their use causes thousands of deaths and untold injuries each year. A person shot in the spine, for example, may be disabled and need care for the rest of his life. You have every right to own a gun, just as you have every right to own a car. But you do not have the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
Register and insure your cars. Register and insure your guns.
You continue to miss the point. Cars are not required to be registered and insured because of the damage they are capable of doing. They are required to be registered and insured because of WHERE they are used, public roadways. Off-road vehicles capable of even more damage are not registered or required to insure because of WHERE they are used.
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Underwriting. Those who practice safe storage practices get lower rates. Those who report thefts are relieved of liability. Simple put, mitigating the cost of insurance encourages responsible behavior.
My vehicle insurance has no basis on where I store my truck. This is a false claim.
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What a surprise! @Jazzhead coming down on the wrong side of liberty...again!
You can take YOUR “reasonable and efficacious” and shove it. I find your “solutions” neither. Keep your grubby little mitts off of MY freedom.
What more proof do we need to state the fact that Jazzhead is an enemy to absolutely every single thing we are beholden and are governed by in terms of principles?
The guy is a DU troll, I'm convinced.
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The need to be responsible is inherent in the ownership of a deadly implement that has the capacity to harm others. Insurance can be priced to be less expensive for responsible gun owners than for irresponsible ones.
What absolute horseshit. A pencil is a deadly implement. So is a skilsaw. So is a brass floor lamp. So is a 1/64th scale model of the Empire State building.
And before you try to beg out of it, you are more likely to be bludgeoned to death than killed with a rifle, by the very same statistics you would cite. And nearly three times as many people are stabbed to death than rifles and shotguns combined.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/01/03/fbi-more-people-killed-with-hammers-and-clubs-each-year-than-with-rifles/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/09/26/fbi-nearly-three-times-people-stabbed-death-killed-rifles-shotguns-combined/
What? no call for registering and insuring hammers and knives?
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You continue to miss the point.
He's not missing his point at all, he just doesn't want to admit he wants the gummint to have a master list of where all the guns are. He also doesn't want to admit why that is.
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Insurance encourages safe storage practices and prompt reporting of thefts.
'Safe Storage' negates the very purpose of the gun, and it's use.
How many people could have been saved if the Texan that stopped the bastard in the OP had is rifle out and ready for use?
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You miss the point. Cars and guns are inherently, and chronically, dangerous, and the their use causes thousands of deaths and untold injuries each year. A person shot in the spine, for example, may be disabled and need care for the rest of his life. You have every right to own a gun, just as you have every right to own a car. But you do not have the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
Register and insure your cars. Register and insure your guns.
Wrong again. If I buy a car and a gun and set both on the ground out in the middle of the prairie and walk away, no one will be harmed by either.
They, therefore aren't dangerous--at all. They are inert pieces of metal and plastic and wood.
But cars and guns have a common factor when they are involved in someone getting hurt: the human.
People are dangerous. Not cars or guns, not even the much decried Corvair is dangerous without a human to make it so. Nor is a Ma Deuce. The problem isn't guns or cars, it's people.
Banning guns or cars will only force the malicious and idiots to find other devices with which they can threaten the sense of security people think they should feel in their social construct hamster runs that are only a few years removed from the (in some places still very real) threat of being shredded by wild beasts.
Actually, the problem is the wild beasts among them masquerading as humans. What some see as the solution to that is to go through life with neither tooth nor claw to defend home and family, nor the legs to run away.
Focus on those who are doing wrong, not the devices they use, nor those who own those devices and do no wrong. All your proposed 'solutions' do is create more problems, not address the ones which exist.
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He's not missing his point at all, he just doesn't want to admit he wants the gummint to have a master list of where all the guns are. He also doesn't want to admit why that is.
He also won't admit the government NEVER WILL have that 'master list'. Earle Stanley Gardner, who wrote the Perry Mason stories had a collection of homemade firearms, over 50, ranging from the crude 'zip gun' to basic hand cannons to well made semi automatics. There are a lot of machinists in the country, many of whom are out of work or retired, who would share their skill with the right people who could be cranking out guns tomorrow if they wanted to for fun and profit, and that doesn't include those who are just 'handy' when it comes to making things.
Anything people have a notion to do, they will. And that doesn't include the millions of perfectly serviceable firearms made before there were any restrictions whatsoever which have never been documented.
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...There are a lot of machinists in the country, many of whom are out of work or retired, who would share their skill with the right people who could be cranking out guns tomorrow if they wanted to for fun and profit, and that doesn't include those who are just 'handy' when it comes to making things.
Add to that list 3D printing for most of the parts. Only a good computer file is needed and anyone can turn out most of the pieces.
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Focus on those who are doing wrong, not the devices they use, nor those who own those devices and do no wrong. All your proposed 'solutions' do is create more problems, not address the ones which exist.
The correct response is to both, within the confines, of course, of the Second Amendment. Even car owners with the safest driving records still have to maintain insurance.
As to whether what I propose "creates more problems", that's the purpose of having discussions like this. You've already gotten me to think about the virtues of fault-based vs. no-fault insurance. Contrary to what the usual suspects say, I do not have any hidden agenda to confiscate guns or to make it harder for the law-abiding to defend themselves or enjoy their hobbies. But gun violence is an epidemic. Stating flatly that registration and insurance can't address the problems that exist is unhelpful and myopic. Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
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The correct response is to both, within the confines, of course, of the Second Amendment. Even car owners with the safest driving records still have to maintain insurance.
Owning the car has no requirements for registration or insurance. It is only the use on public roads that makes the requirement. You keep trying to make this an analogy while ignoring the reason for the requirement.
As to whether what I propose "creates more problems", that's the purpose of having discussions like this. You've already gotten me to think about the virtues of fault-based vs. no-fault insurance. Contrary to what the usual suspects say, I do not have any hidden agenda to confiscate guns or to make it harder for the law-abiding to defend themselves or enjoy their hobbies. But gun violence is an epidemic. Stating flatly that registration and insurance can't address the problems that exist is unhelpful and myopic. Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
What? Pointing out that your "solution" doesn't correct the problem is unhelpful? Myopic? Don't we won't to solve the problem?
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[quote}There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.[/quote]
And here I thought the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was designed to put restrictions on government and protect the rights of the people.
Guess I'll have to look at it again./s
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Just saw this. No, I don't blame the survivors for not wanting to go back there.
Texas Church, Site Of Deadly Massacre, To Be Demolished
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/11/09/texas-church-site-deadly-massacre-demolished/848486001/
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Actually, the Form 4473s are supposed to be kept on file by the dealer who sold the firearm. They get turned in if the dealer goes out of business or does not renew their FFL, for whatever reason. It is the NICS data which is supposed to be destroyed according to law, and yes, the BATF (and DOJ) has been taken to task over that data being compiled and stored.
Thanks for the clarification Joe. I'm an NRA Endowment sucker. And living in California I got burned out on being inundated in "Send $17.76 to us Now or Freedom Will Die", letters as the NRA did Jack S^^t nothing with my money to stop what was going on in Ca. When I left there 10 years ago I never bothered writing them to change where the magazines were delivered. So it's been a bit since reviewed that stuff.
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Owning the car has no requirements for registration or insurance. It is only the use on public roads that makes the requirement. You keep trying to make this an analogy while ignoring the reason for the requirement.
I know you keep repeating that fact again and again, and I'm frustrated because I just don't get what your point is. I'm not citing car registration and insurance as an exact parallel to gun registration and insurance, but rather as an analogy for purposes of discussion. As I said, what requires insurance is the use of the implement for its intended purpose. For a car, that's driving it on a public road. Fine, I understand - if it's kept in the garage and never driven, it doesn't need to be registered and insured. But, again, what's your point?
A gun's intended purpose can take place at home, on the road, in the public square. It can be dangerous if used for its intended purpose in any of those locations, so the mere fact of ownership and possession would, I propose, constitutes use for its intended purpose and trigger the insurance requirement. Once it is out of your ownership and possession (that is, reported as stolen or transferred), then the insurance requirement ends.
The only parallel I can think of regarding the point I think you're trying to make is dismantlement of the gun so it cannot fire. A collector, for example, could alter a key part to render it inoperable and thereby avoid the obligation to register and insure. If that's your point, I understand and agree.
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Just saw this. No, I don't blame the survivors for not wanting to go back there.
Texas Church, Site Of Deadly Massacre, To Be Demolished
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/11/09/texas-church-site-deadly-massacre-demolished/848486001/
That seems like a really good decision. There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded. It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.
I am still so deeply troubled by this. I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.
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What more proof do we need to state the fact that Jazzhead is an enemy to absolutely every single thing we are beholden and are governed by in terms of principles?
The guy is a DU troll, I'm convinced.
@INVAR
Invar I'm down with most of your cynicism, but in Jazzhead's case you don't go far Enough.
Remember what Eric Holder got for his Fast and Furious crime spree?
This is just a tiny part of it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/11/us/eric-holder-to-lead-democrats-attack-on-republican-gerrymandering.html
His peeps put him in charge of their boiler room to gerrymander every electoral district in America.
They're down but they ain't out, not by a long shot.
So why stop at DU?
Holder and O's crew don't like us at all, not by a long shot.
And I wouldn't put Them trolling us to gather info on Anyone they can run through a Kangaroo Court as an example to the rest of us, Past those low lifes for a heartbeat.
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Give it up, @Jazzhead, nobody on this forum is going to go along with your thinly disguised "insurance" scheme. You can pretend it's already an established practice if you want, but I'm not going to play along.
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It's an analogy, not an exact parallel. A car that's undriven and kept in a garage isn't dangerous. Whether a car or a gun, insurance should be required when the implement is to be used for its intended purpose.
Another problem with the car analogy is this: The purpose of car insurance is to cover accidents. The event that occurred in Sutherland Springs was no accident.
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Another problem with the car analogy is this: The purpose of car insurance is to cover accidents. The event that occurred in Sutherland Springs was no accident.
The whole insurance business is wind in sails, a trick from the gun grabbers to make us think they're not really trying to grab them. They are. Anybody who says registration and insurance is a good idea is a poorly disguised gun grabber, protests to the contrary.
I spent a couple hours this afternoon trying to find a case of registration not leading to eventual confiscation, and I could not find any, but I did find several suggestions of using an insurance scheme as a backdoor to registration and eventual confiscation.
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That seems like a really good decision. There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded. It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.
I am still so deeply troubled by this. I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.
I don't know. It wasn't the first church shooting in recent years....maybe it was the senselessness of it.
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Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
Mitigating risk is not an issue. Nor would the shooter in this case give a damn about risk.
As for the law-abiding side, the additional cost of insurance may have dissuaded the neighbor from owning a gun, which would have resulted in every person in that church dying that day.
Besides, don't you think any insurance mandate should be left up to each State to decide?
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That seems like a really good decision. There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded. It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.
I am still so deeply troubled by this. I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.
I have mixed feeling about demolishing the church. What will be done with the site?
I agree - this massacre has affected me very deeply as well.
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The whole insurance business is wind in sails, a trick from the gun grabbers to make us think they're not really trying to grab them. They are. Anybody who says registration and insurance is a good idea is a poorly disguised gun grabber, protests to the contrary.
This whole 'insurance' angle was brought up to address a problem that doesn't even exist.
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You don't have the freedom to be irresponsible, bub. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
Ok bub! The Second Amendment exactly gives me that right, you freaking statist tool:
The right of the people to keep AND BEAR arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED
Just. Stop. Now! Ain’t nobody here buying your BS.
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Mitigating risk is not an issue. Nor would the shooter in this case give a damn about risk.
As for the law-abiding side, the additional cost of insurance may have dissuaded the neighbor from owning a gun, which would have resulted in every person in that church dying that day.
Besides, don't you think any insurance mandate should be left up to each State to decide?
This insurance idea was cooked up by gun-grabbers who figured out the people weren't going to go along quietly with registration. I have a true-blue grabber I know from Bookface and he switched to this tactic as smoothly as a train switching tracks. One day he was insisting on confiscation, another day it was registration, and now his hobby horse is insurance. "Why not make it like a car? Seems common-sense!" he says, presumably with a blank look on his face.
Look how deep in the weeds this has gotten this conversation. The insurance suggestion should have been laughed down the same page it came up.
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That seems like a really good decision. There are so few people left in that congregation that were not killed or wounded. It would be awful for the survivors to see the pews empty, and remember the carnage.
I am still so deeply troubled by this. I'm not sure any mass murder has effected me so deeply as this one.
I agree, ML. This massacre was truly motivated by sadism and hate. Spraying bullets from a tall building at a faceless crowd is bad, but walking the through the aisles at a house of worship and methodically shooting the wounded at point blank range is disturbing because it so satanic.
It is hard to consider this massacre without contemplating that mankind is truly unique in being capable of such utter depravity and cruelty. Did God make a mistake giving us this world? It may have been this man's explicit purpose to tempt us to lose faith. It's not easy, but I'm not going to give him the motherflippin' satisfaction.
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This whole 'insurance' angle was brought up to address a problem that doesn't even exist.
And now we know why. Cooked up by a couple leftist newspaper morons.
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FBI pulling out of investigation and leaving the job to Texas. Buh-bye
http://www.kens5.com/news/local/fbi-leaving-sutherland-springs-handing-case-to-local-authorities/490589590
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What more proof do we need to state the fact that Jazzhead is an enemy to absolutely every single thing we are beholden and are governed by in terms of principles?
The guy is a DU troll, I'm convinced.
@INVAR
Part 2;
Eric Holder: Inability To Pass Gun Control My 'Single Failure'
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/02/08/eric-holder-inability-to-pass-gun-control-my-single-failure/
Then the Californiacrats put him on the payroll to Launder Tax Money to him.
California Hires Eric holder To Lead Legal Fight Against Trump
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/01/04/california-hires-eric-holder-lead-legal-fight-trump/
Hiring Eric Holder To Fight Donald Trump Violates State Constitution, California Republican Says
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/12/holder-hire-violates-calif-constitution-lawmaker/
Add in a Koskinen and Lerner imbroglio for seasoning:
Suit Alleges IRS Improperly Seized 60 Million Personal Medical records
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgottlieb/2013/05/15/the-irs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/#41d9fe8b1b72
"According to a story by Courthousenews.com, an unnamed healthcare provider in California is suing the IRS and 15 unnamed agents, alleging that they improperly seized some 60 million medical records of 10 million Americans, including medical records of all California state judges on March 11, 2011."
The suit was dismissed, but the point is it Was brought.
They're down, but they're not out, not by a long shot.
Jazzhead has had his trolling handed back to him by just about everyone here over what, 29/30 pages so far?
Lot of stick to-it-iveness for your garden variety DU type.
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FBI pulling out of investigation and leaving the job to Texas. Buh-bye
http://www.kens5.com/news/local/fbi-leaving-sutherland-springs-handing-case-to-local-authorities/490589590
Why was the FBI involved in the first place?
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Ok bub! The Second Amendment exactly gives me that right, you freaking statist tool:
The right of the people to keep AND BEAR arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED
Just. Stop. Now! Ain’t nobody here buying your BS.
I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man. I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either.
The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk. I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith. The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position. It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation. The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable, but I do. I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.
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Why was the FBI involved in the first place?
Ought to be obvious.
It's still the Obama machine.
Looking for a Right Wing MAGA connection.
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Why was the FBI involved in the first place?
@Cyber Liberty
Wilson County sheriff asked for help from other, unspecified, law enforcement. Of course, he would get the help of DPS and the Texas Rangers. Not sure he requested the FBI or they just inserted themselves- article didn't say.
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I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man. I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either.
The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk. I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith. The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position. It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation. The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable, but I do. I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.
Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is?
"Common sense" ain't so common anymore, thus, 2nd Amendment supporters should rightfully eschew any discussion with those words included.
I am equally suspicious/dismissive of the use of the word "reasonable" in this context.
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I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man. I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either.
The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk. I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith. The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position. It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation. The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable, but I do. I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.
You did not enter this conversation in "good faith." First, you pretended like you really thought we were correct about the right to keep and bear arms. Then, you bring up this cooked up insurance scheme, proving your attitude and desire to register then grab guns has not diminished in the least, you're just test driving a new tactic. This is, what, the fourth or fifth stab you've taken at it?
You failed. Again.
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I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man. I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either.
EPIDEMIC!!!!
888ohnoes
I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.
The hell you say. What about those who can't afford insurance.. especially for the 4 or 5 guns it takes to live out here... You make them criminal, or deny them self defense and even subsistence.
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epidemic of gun violence.
Darn it, why are those guns going around shooting?
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Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is?
"Common sense" ain't so common anymore, thus, 2nd Amendment supporters should rightfully eschew any discussion with those words included.
I am equally suspicious/dismissive of the use of the word "reasonable" in this context.
I might accept the term "reasonable," but not from somebody I've seen twist logic into every pretzel imaginable to come out with the same desired end result.
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Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
And as anyone who has insurance knows, it's also a time-honored and traditional way for insurance companies to control policy holders' behavior. That would be infringement, and thus unconstitutional.
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Darn it, why are those guns going around shooting?
Sounds like the guns have the Tingle for a Pringle....
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You did not enter this conversation in "good faith." First, you pretended like you really thought we were right about the right to keep and bear arms. Then, you bring up this cooked up insurance scheme, proving your attitude and desire to register then grab guns has not diminished in the least, you're just test driving a new tactic. This is, what, the fourth or fifth stab you've taken at it?
You failed. Again.
Oh, bullshit. Indeed, your dishonesty is why I cannot respect you - ascribing to me motivations you've conjured up out of thin air is textbook bad faith.
You're simply lying when you accuse me of wanting to "grab guns". I want no such thing. I propose a regime of registration and insurance for exactly the purpose I stated - to allocate and mitigate risk. The Constitution does not give anyone the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation.
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I might accept the term "reasonable," but not from somebody I've seen twist logic into every pretzel imaginable to come out with the same desired end result.
There are already over 20k firearm laws on the books across this country. Most, if not all, are intended to prevent the events of the past couple of months and not one has succeeded in preventing them. I think there's more than enough "reasonable regulations" on the books already.
And it stands to reason that the same people ('RATS) using the words "common sense regulation" would be the ones defining "reasonable regulation".
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The correct response is to both, within the confines, of course, of the Second Amendment. Even car owners with the safest driving records still have to maintain insurance.
As to whether what I propose "creates more problems", that's the purpose of having discussions like this. You've already gotten me to think about the virtues of fault-based vs. no-fault insurance. Contrary to what the usual suspects say, I do not have any hidden agenda to confiscate guns or to make it harder for the law-abiding to defend themselves or enjoy their hobbies. But gun violence is an epidemic. Stating flatly that registration and insurance can't address the problems that exist is unhelpful and myopic. Insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk.
No, the correct Constitutional response is to prosecute those criminal actors which survive and leave everyone else out of it. The Constitution does not allow for regulating the right to own a firearm, nor does it allow for anyone to lose "life, liberty or property" without due process of law, which includes being accused, tried and convicted of a crime. Writing new laws to make people guilty of something unnecessary which will not stop anyone from murdering someone in order to infringe their rights is liable to get someone unnecessarily killed, sooner or later, over something which should not have ever been an issue. In the meantime, though, the Constitution does allow for the arrest, trial, and prosecution of those who are out there performing acts of murder and violence, and those people can and do lose some of their Liberty as a result of either their actions or those of the court.
Passing another law when the Government cannot and will not enforce the very laws which it should be going by in order to stop lawbreakers which will only be created by the new law, not stopped by it, is a non-starter. I will crawl over broken glass naked in a blizzard to get to the polls to vote against anyone who votes for such nonsense, and will devote my resources to their electoral defeat.
My rifle IS my insurance from statist jerkoffs who think they can regulate it out of my hands.
"From my cold dead fingers" means something.
I'll be damned if I am going to have my rights, especially one which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED nibbled away at. Stuff the insurance. I will own a rifle as long as I breathe. Take your insurance scheme and shove it. You would have honest people pay for the crimes of others. No effing way. End of discussion.
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Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is?
Ultimately, the courts. To me, reasonable regulation must satisfy three requirements - it must be efficacious, it must achieve its purpose in the least obtrusive means possible, and it must be Constitutional (meaning in this context that it does not render the RKBA for personal defense a practical fiction, like the ban on handguns that was overturned in Heller).
I support the reasoning and result in Heller. I am no gun-grabber.
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Oh, bullshit. You're simply lying when you accuse me of wanting to "grab guns". I want no such thing. I propose a regime of registration and insurance for exactly the purpose I stated - to allocate and mitigate risk.
Then you are invincibly ignorant of history, and the notable progression from registration to confiscation, with certainty. Actually, I don't think you're ignorant of it - I think you're fine with it.
When is the last time you needed a gun? When is the last time you shot one off? I think the shit you propose doesn't effect you in the least, And because of that, you think it should be the same for everyone else -- Which it ain't.
The Constitution does not give anyone the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation.
Actually, as @austingirl already enumerated, yes, in fact, it does.
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Oh, bullshit. Indeed, your dishonesty is why I cannot respect you - ascribing to me motivations you've conjured up out of thin air is textbook bad faith.
You're simply lying when you accuse me of wanting to "grab guns". I want no such thing. I propose a regime of registration and insurance for exactly the purpose I stated - to allocate and mitigate risk. The Constitution does not give anyone the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation.
You lied when you pretended we are reasonable people. You lie when you deny being a grabber. That is only a couple of a host of reasons I have the same level of respect for you that you claim to have for me. The right to keep and bear arms is too important to leave up to a pack of leftist liars.
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Then you are invincibly ignorant of history, and the notable progression from registration to confiscation, with certainty. Actually, I don't think you're ignorant of it - I think you're fine with it.
When is the last time you needed a gun? When is the last time you shot one off? I think the shit you propose doesn't effect you in the least, And because of that, you think it should be the same for everyone else -- Which it ain't.
Watch him claim to own a firearm.
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The Constitution does not allow for regulating the right to own a firearm
Yes, it does. Every Constitutional right is subject to reasonable regulation. See Heller. End of discussion.
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No, the correct Constitutional response is to prosecute those criminal actors which survive and leave everyone else out of it. The Constitution does not allow for regulating the right to own a firearm, nor does it allow for anyone to lose "life, liberty or property" without due process of law, which includes being accused, tried and convicted of a crime. Writing new laws to make people guilty of something unnecessary which will not stop anyone from murdering someone in order to infringe their rights is liable to get someone unnecessarily killed, sooner or later, over something which should not have ever been an issue. In the meantime, though, the Constitution does allow for the arrest, trial, and prosecution of those who are out there performing acts of murder and violence, and those people can and do lose some of their Liberty as a result of either their actions or those of the court.
Passing another law when the Government cannot and will not enforce the very laws which it should be going by in order to stop lawbreakers which will only be created by the new law, not stopped by it, is a non-starter. I will crawl over broken glass naked in a blizzard to get to the polls to vote against anyone who votes for such nonsense, and will devote my resources to their electoral defeat.
My rifle IS my insurance from statist jerkoffs who think they can regulate it out of my hands.
"From my cold dead fingers" means something.
I'll be damned if I am going to have my rights, especially one which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED nibbled away at. Stuff the insurance. I will own a rifle as long as I breathe. Take your insurance scheme and shove it. You would have honest people pay for the crimes of others. No effing way. End of discussion.
:hands:
Dittos, well said. I'm not talking any more on this thread to somebody who opened a conversation with us in bad faith.
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(https://www.flayme.com/images/wrong-on-internet.png)
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Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is?
"Common sense" ain't so common anymore, thus, 2nd Amendment supporters should rightfully eschew any discussion with those words included.
I am equally suspicious/dismissive of the use of the word "reasonable" in this context.
The Supreme Court, as it has done innumerable times in the past. The Second Amendment is no more absolute than is the First Amendment.
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Oh, bullshit. Indeed, your dishonesty is why I cannot respect you - ascribing to me motivations you've conjured up out of thin air is textbook bad faith.
You're simply lying when you accuse me of wanting to "grab guns". I want no such thing. I propose a regime of registration and insurance for exactly the purpose I stated - to allocate and mitigate risk. The Constitution does not give anyone the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation.
I would suggest that those who want to avoid deadly risk not f*ck with the right to keep and bear arms.
See how simple that is?
You never answered how I would compensate someone for "risk", a possibility of loss or injury : peril; someone or something that creates or suggests a hazard.
You cannot compensate for risk, only damage.
In the absence of damage, the real risk was zero.
How would your insurance company pay for almost hitting another car?
OMG! You were only ten feet away! If your engine is running the whole planet is at risk!
Mighta, coulda, almost, purt'near, phooey!
Let's look at some real risks. According to this data https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8 (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8), for instance, in 2011 323 people were killed with rifles in the US. Note, too, that 728 people were killed with hands and feet in the same year in the US.
This means that people walking around with hands and feet are more than twice as dangerous as people who have rifles.
Which means that hand and foot insurance should be at least twice as much as rifle insurance.
Because everyone with hands and feet places the population at twice the risk of a rifle owner.
See how bloody silly that is?
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Watch him claim to own a firearm.
I don't give a crap if he does. He most certainly doesn't USE it, or he'd know just how ridiculous his position is.
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The Supreme Court, as it has done innumerable times in the past. The Second Amendment is no more absolute than is the First Amendment.
Sure it is, by its very nature.
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I'll be damned if I am going to have my rights, especially one which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED nibbled away at. Stuff the insurance. I will own a rifle as long as I breathe. Take your insurance scheme and shove it. You would have honest people pay for the crimes of others. No effing way. End of discussion.
And that is how it's done.
Next lesson, class?
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Ultimately, the courts.
Not the people?
consider you self exposed, liberal.
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Who gets to define what "reasonable regulation" is?
Jazzhead.
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There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to expose others to deadly risks without compensation.
There is nothing in the Constitution that gives you the right to vote either. Yet people still vote. Go figure.
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CNN is reporting he shot animals he bought from Craig's list
He's truly a monster
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/us/texas-church-shooting-former-colleague/index.html
I can't print it.
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CNN is reporting he shot animals he bought from Craig's list
He's truly a monster
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/us/texas-church-shooting-former-colleague/index.html
I can't print it.
No words.......... **nononono*
But their conversations made Edwards increasingly uncomfortable. At one point, Edwards said, Kelley praised Dylann Roof, the man who entered a South Carolina church and killed nine people during a bible study.
"He would say 'isn't it cool? Did you watch the news?'" Edwards said. "He would say he wished he had the nerve to do it, but all he would be able to do is kill animals."
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All insurance is a tax.
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CNN is reporting he shot animals he bought from Craig's list
He's truly a monster
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/09/us/texas-church-shooting-former-colleague/index.html
I can't print it.
@Freya
I was going to post it, but it made me cry. I will have nightmares. What an evil b@st@ard. Bad seed personified.
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@Freya
I was going to post it, but it made me cry. I will have nightmares. What an evil b@st@ard. Bad seed personified.
@austingirl I confess, I didn't read it I just saw the headline, saw it wasn't posted here and posted it.
I'll have nightmares too. Big hugs to you.
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So, which of Dante's rings is he in?
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So, which of Dante's rings is he in?
The only comfort I have right now, is that he is being punished with eternal fire.
And hopefully screaming in pain.
(Not feeling particular "Christian charity" toward this filthy beast...... )
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So, which of Dante's rings is he in?
It's been a very long time since I've read it, b b but I'd guess not with Paulo and Francesca
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So, which of Dante's rings is he in?
Hopefully, it is round robin on shuffle. Every "day" a new hell with no way of knowing what comes next.
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@austingirl I confess, I didn't read it I just saw the headline, saw it wasn't posted here and posted it.
I'll have nightmares too. Big hugs to you.
@Freya
Thanks and hugs back to you. I'm petting Hank and Harriet for comfort.
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Yes, it does. Every Constitutional right is subject to reasonable regulation. See Heller. End of discussion.
Advocates and pushers for government tyranny like you, are the very reason we have a Second Amendment to begin with.
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Advocates and pushers for government tyranny like you, are the very reason we have a Second Amendment to begin with.
It seems he scurried off to see what Rachel tells him to do. I feel successful tonight.
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It seems he scurried off to see what Rachel tells him to do. I feel successful tonight.
May he RIP
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I'll state my opinion the same as you do, little man. I'm no gun-grabber, but I'm not going to stick my head in the sand at our epidemic of gun violence, either.
The use of insurance is a time-honored and traditional way to allocate and mitigate risk. I offered my proposal for purposes of discussion, and have entered into this conversation in good faith. The Second Amendment - by its plain language - does not support your extreme and selfish position. It has been held by Justice Scalia himself to be subject to reasonable regulation. The gun-grabbers don't want what's reasonable, but I do. I only support regulation that is efficacious and does not unduly burden the right to self-defense cited by Justice Scalia.
Epidemic of Gun Violence is Politicized CDC Speak.
From the same CDC which has included in its Children Killed by Firearms numbers, ALL youth up to age 25.
Translation?
When was Gun Violence discovered to be transmitted by a contagious virus or bacteria?
You're Medicalizing something which is None of any Doctor's business.
That's called Scientism to push a Political Agenda. It is NOT science but the Opposite of Science.
CDC sticks inner-city gang members who kill each other over street drug profits into the numbers to lie to the American people.
Let the uneducated/undecided schlubs think the numbers of 'Children' killed by 'Preventable, Needless' Gun Violence were all innocent toddlers and grade school kids.
Justice Scalia was a Supreme Court Judge who enjoyed the dinner company of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. He was not God.
Let's not get into SCOTUS being infallible, shall we?
Or we'll veer off into another 60 pages of Dred Scott.
You only support regulation that is 'Reasonable'.
Who the hell appointed You the arbiter of Reasonable?
As for Efficacious you've blithely glossed over, flat out ignored, and sailed right past every take down of efficacious for numerous pages already.
So why would it be Reasonable or Efficacious to burden people who've already proven they're not going to commit murder with yet More gun laws that Anyone can circumvent if they want to?
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Epidemic of Gun Violence is Politicized CDC Speak.
From the same CDC which has included in its Children Killed by Firearms numbers, ALL youth up to age 25.
Translation?
When was Gun Violence discovered to be transmitted by a contagious virus or bacteria?
You're Medicalizing something which is None of any Doctor's business.
That's called Scientism to push a Political Agenda. It is NOT science but the Opposite of Science.
CDC sticks inner-city gang members who kill each other over street drug profits into the numbers to lie to the American people.
Let the uneducated/undecided schlubs think the numbers of 'Children' killed by 'Preventable, Needless' Gun Violence were all innocent toddlers and grade school kids.
Justice Scalia was a Supreme Court Judge who enjoyed the dinner company of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. He was not God.
Let's not get into SCOTUS being infallible, shall we?
Or we'll veer off into another 60 pages of Dred Scott.
You only support regulation that is 'Reasonable'.
Who the hell appointed You the arbiter of Reasonable?
As for Efficacious you've blithely glossed over, flat out ignored, and sailed right past every take down of efficacious for numerous pages already.
So why would it be Reasonable or Efficacious to burden people who've already proven they're not going to commit murder with yet More gun laws that Anyone can circumvent if they want to?
He's a gun-grabber. He lies every time he claims he is not. Everything becomes clear when one sees that fact. This entire argument has been an exercise in hiding it, but in the end he exposed himself, and failed. He's back to ask his leftist Masters what to do.
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What I propose is reasonable, efficacious and consistent with the Second Amendment as interpreted by Heller.
Not even close to the truth. Heller ruled that trigger-lock mandates were unconstitutional. Yet you propose insurance mandates. Both require a gun owner to purchase a secondary product as a condition for owning a gun. Both are unconstitutional. (See: District of Columbia v. Heller)
I seriously doubt you have even read Heller. You are as ignorant of that decision as you are of Everson.
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He's a gun-grabber. He lies every time he claims he is not. Everything becomes clear when one sees that fact. This entire argument has been an exercise in hiding it, but in the end he exposed himself, and failed. He's back to ask his leftist Masters what to do.
Pretty much nailed it.
He's a warmed-over DU troll that thinks he can deceive enough people here into listening to him due to his insistence he is not what his own words reveal him to be.
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Sometimes when you wear yourself thin you become invisible.
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There are already over 20k firearm laws on the books across this country. Most, if not all, are intended to prevent the events of the past couple of months and not one has succeeded in preventing them. I think there's more than enough "reasonable regulations" on the books already.
Well, if that's the case, why isn't that a call to action? Are you OK with mass shootings? Are we just to throw our hands in the air and bury the dead?
If the problem is the laws don't work, then maybe we need to scrap 'em and come up with new ones. Ones that that are both less onerous for the law abiding, and more effective in assisting the victims of gun violence and keeping guns out of the hands of the bad guys.
That's what I'm trying to get at with a proposal of registration and insurance. It works with motor vehicles - there are no restrictions on the number and type of cars and trucks one can own, and every driver who has insurance is able to provide compensation to the victims of injuries sustained on the road. And transfers of motor vehicles take place out of the shadows, so cars can be easily traced to their rightful owners and liability assigned in a way that is just and fair.
With a regime of regulation and insurance, there'd be no need to ban assault rifles as the Dems keep wanting to do. You want one gun or a hundred? That's your right and your choice. Just register and insure the lot. As I've said before, the Second Amendment gives you the right to own the guns you want, but it does not give you the right to expose others to deadly risk without compensation. You need to be responsible. But gun ownership, even in the hands of responsible people, still runs the risk of causing harm to others. Since most gun owners can't afford to compensate the victims and their families for their losses, the solution is insurance to allocate and mitigate the risk. Insurance that will pay medical bills and compensate for lost earnings.
Moreover, the obligation to insure your guns provides a positive incentive to sell or transfer your gun legally, with a visible transfer of ownership just as is routinely done with cars. That's not inconsistent with the Second Amendment, and it will reduce the number of "dark" guns out there, in the hands of the wrong sort of people. And the obligation to insure will also encourage both safe storage practices and the speedy reporting of stolen or missing guns in order to lift the liability from the gunowner.
What I propose is the essence of simplicity and reasonableness - own whatever guns your heart desires, but take responsibility for them. That's how it's done with cars, and that's how it ought to be done with guns.
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Just abut every poster here has told you to shove that insurance crap up your fanny, and most have explained in great detail why (I even showed where you got the idea), yet you persist in pretending you never heard a word of it. Typical Jazzy. Go troll another thread.
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He's a gun-grabber. He lies every time he claims he is not. Everything becomes clear when one sees that fact. This entire argument has been an exercise in hiding it, but in the end he exposed himself, and failed. He's back to ask his leftist Masters what to do.
You'd rather assign a label than address an argument on the merits.
The purpose of insurance is to allocate and mitigate risk. Tens of thousands of deaths each year are caused by motor vehicles, and our community's insurance regime offers victims the knowledge that they'll be compensated for random injuries no matter who hits them. Tens of thousands of deaths each year are caused by people wielding firearms, and their victims are just as random and deserving of compensation.
Resistance to the idea of taking responsibility is the height of selfishness, and certainly not my idea of conservatism. Own as many guns as you want, just register and insure them. It's so basic and so simple.
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Just abut every poster here has told you to shove that insurance crap up your fanny, and most have explained in great detail why (I even showed where you got the idea), yet you persist in pretending you never heard a word of it. Typical Jazzy. Go troll another thread.
I work with insurance for a living, that's where I got the idea. Insurance is used in a variety of contexts because it allows random transactions between strangers to occur with acceptable, measurable risk. Why not apply insurance principles to the social costs of gun violence?
You say the current laws aren't working? I agree - but that means we need new thinking about just what WILL work, consistent of course with the law and the Constitution. You want to address my insurance proposal on the merits? I'd welcome your input. But if all you've got is labels and insults, then you add nothing to the discussion. And no, I won't shut up on the demand of the likes of schoolmarms like you.
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So why would it be Reasonable or Efficacious to burden people who've already proven they're not going to commit murder with yet More gun laws that Anyone can circumvent if they want to?
Insurance works in the motor vehicle context - even the safest drivers need to take responsibility for the social costs of the dangerous implements they choose to own. And the safest drivers are rewarded with better rates.
No reason it can't work to address the social costs of gun ownership. Take responsibility, sir, and you can own all the guns you want. Why are you so resistant to the concept of responsibility?
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Insurance works in the motor vehicle context - even the safest drivers need to take responsibility for the social costs of the dangerous implements theyTh choose to own. And the safest drivers are rewarded with better rates.
No reason it can't work to address the social costs of gun ownership. Take responsibility, sir, and you can own all the guns you want. Why are you so resistant to the concept of responsibility?
Those who choose to defend themselves are the responsible party, not people like you who just wish to strip away our defenses.
Forcing people to shell out more money is once again taking away liberties.
And what is this 'social costs of gun ownership' nonsense? That is a laughable term to call the 2nd Amendment, one of the principles of freedom in this country.
Keep talking please. We conservatives need to know how the lib's methods to undermine this country in more details.
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You say the current laws aren't working?
I said no such thing, I said the current laws are not being enforced. You are sticking words in my mouth, then speaking untruthfully about it.
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I said no such thing, I said the current laws are not being enforced. You are sticking words in my mouth, then speaking untruthfully about it.
Pot, meet kettle. *****rollingeyes*****
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Those who choose to defend themselves are the responsible party, not people like you who just wish to strip away our defenses.
You can own all the guns you want. Big ones, little ones, you name it. Just take responsibility.
Forcing people to shell out more money is once again taking away liberties.
Stop being selfish. Gun ownership imposes social costs, and requires responsibility. Your right to own guns is not your right to impose deadly risks on others without compensation.
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You can own all the guns you want. Big ones, little ones, you name it. Just take responsibility.
Stop being selfish. Gun ownership imposes social costs, and requires responsibility. Your right to own guns is not your right to impose deadly risks on others without compensation.
@Jazzhead
My owning a firearm does not impose deadly risks on other law abiding people. False premise which is demonstrably false.
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Stop being selfish. Gun ownership imposes social costs, and requires responsibility. Your right to own guns is not your right to impose deadly risks on others without compensation.
I don't think you understand risk. Owning a car increases the risk that you will kill someone while driving drunk. But that doesn't mean that a car owner imposes deadly risks on others by owning a car.
If you are poor and possess a gun, you are more likely to shoot someone. Does that mean that poverty imposes deadly risks on others?
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You can own all the guns you want. Big ones, little ones, you name it. Just take responsibility.
Stop being selfish. Gun ownership imposes social costs, and requires responsibility. Your right to own guns is not your right to impose deadly risks on others without compensation.
@Jazzhead
Here, I’ll cut to the chase for you (And please know that in the interest of decorum I’m not telling you what I really think of you):
If you want mine or any other patriot’s gun (or want us to pay insurance on them), just make sure you have the balls to volunteer to be on the team that starts knocking on doors, don’t let someone else do your dirty work. Screw you, you anti-liberty statist.
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In the context of this particular crime, I agree that there was already a law in place and the lack of enforcement of that law (i.e., the Air Force's failure to provide the information to fill the data base) is the issue.
But the larger issue, as you and roamer have cited, is ease at which bad guys can illegally obtain guns. I've heard the response that no new laws are needed because criminals can "always" get the guns they need. In a nation where the number of guns far outstrips the number of people, illegal transfers of firearms are simply a fact of life, and the carnage caused by illegal guns is the price we pay for living in this country.
I can't agree with that. That is why I continue to advocate a similar regime as we require for motor vehicle ownership - registration and insurance. Own as many guns as you want, so long as they are registered and insured.
The insurance I'd propose is similar to PIP insurance that most states require of car owners. Simple no-fault insurance that will pay the medical bills and restore lost income to the victims of injury caused by an insured gun. The way I'd work it is to require insurance up until the time when a gun is legally sold, transferred or reported lost to the police. That will provide a monetary incentive to report sales, transfers and losses, and to keep guns safely stored so as to prevent losses. It would help address the abuse where sellers don't have your sense of moral obligation not to conduct a private sale when the buyer is "sketchy". Conduct a private sale or swap, but only upon such conditions that permit your obligation to continue to insure that gun to be lifted.
We live with such requirements routinely with our cars - useful but potentially deadly implements just as guns are. The burden of insurance causes us to make sure unauthorized use is monitored, and that transactions take place with proper transfer of title and registration.
Gun registration doesn’t solve any problems, only creates more. Do you trust the feral government? Besides, how many criminals have legally purchased or registered guns in the commission of their crimes. Very few. In this and Vegas crimes, yes. Although they lied to get them. In ordinary city street crimes, most guns are illegal in the first place.
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Pot, meet kettle. *****rollingeyes*****
:silly:
I point out you are using a Straw Man to make the argument you want to have, rather than the one I'm making, and that somehow equates my pointing out your constant repetitive demand for gun registration outs you as a gun-grabber?
You have been told by virtually everybody on this thread WHY registration equal confiscation, and given multiple examples to prove the point, and do you argue that point? No! You ignore them and call people names. Very leftist of you. Very troll-like.
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Insurance works in the motor vehicle context - even the safest drivers need to take responsibility for the social costs of the dangerous implements they choose to own. And the safest drivers are rewarded with better rates.
No reason it can't work to address the social costs of gun ownership. Take responsibility, sir, and you can own all the guns you want. Why are you so resistant to the concept of responsibility?
You quoted me. You said you worked with Insurance.
The safest drivers are rewarded. BULLS%%T!
The last Car Insurance Bill I got jacked my rates up 24%
My record has NO tickets and No Accidents on it.
I called my Agent.
Jackwagon handed me a spiel about 'Shared Risk' and how Everybody has to Chip In to pay for the Unsafe Drivers out there.
No more 'Safe Driver' discounts, at least not from his co.
What I told HIM, i will not print because I've grown to like TBR and I'm not getting myself Banned and my IP blocked by the site Owner for it.
Why am I, why am 'I' as in me myself and 'I' so resistant to the concept of Responsibility?
You first.
Why are YOU so Resistant to MY being responsible enough to know that surrendering MY responsibility to Schumer, Feinstein and Holder, and YOU, through Govt TO GOVT is surrender, period.
What stake have You got in forcing Everyone to just hand over their own Individual Responsibility to a Govt that proves itself day in and day out is
1: Incapable of Handling that responsibility.
2: Doesn't care to begin with because all it wants to do is Destroy what it inherits/steals/regulates from us all.
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What stake have You got in forcing Everyone to just hand over their own Individual Responsibility to a Govt that proves itself day in and day out is
When you realize he wants gun confiscation and is using every dodge in the book to avoid telling us that, everything falls neatly into place. I think @INVAR is being a little too kind to him in his characterizations of him.
This the very definition of "arguing in bad faith."
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When you realize he wants gun confiscation and is using every dodge in the book to avoid telling us that, everything falls neatly into place. I think @INVAR is being a little too kind to him in his characterizations of him.
This the very definition of "arguing in bad faith."
Agreed.
But despite the wisdom of "Don't Feed the Trolls."
I sometimes find it amusing to ask them to make sense of their own words.
And then watch them back up, pull the trigger on their bullhorn again, and try to shout you down, again, with the same untenable SLOGANS that comprise their entire argument.
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Just abut every poster here has told you to shove that insurance crap up your fanny, and most have explained in great detail why (I even showed where you got the idea), yet you persist in pretending you never heard a word of it. Typical Jazzy. Go troll another thread.
@Cyber Liberty
Yes, he persisted...(and persists)..just like another liberal. Sigh.
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@Cyber Liberty
Yes, he persisted...(and persists)..just like another liberal. Sigh.
Only because some here insist on feeding the damned trolls!
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When you realize he wants gun confiscation and is using every dodge in the book to avoid telling us that, everything falls neatly into place. I think @INVAR is being a little too kind to him in his characterizations of him.
This the very definition of "arguing in bad faith."
Those who defend motor vehicle registration and insurance aren't seeking to confiscate cars. You are paranoid and a liar to ascribe to me motivations that I tell you repeatedly I don't share. I have no hidden agenda to confiscate guns. Indeed, I seek a solution to the social costs of guns that will NOT confiscate them as the Democrats want. I do NOT support such nonsense as assault weapon bans or taxes on ammunition. An insurance regime is a viable way to address social costs while preserving your freedom have as many guns as your heart desires. Insurance works in a variety of contexts to address costly externalities, mitigate and allocate risk, and allow human beings to interact with each other. It can work with guns as well, and PRESERVE your Second Amendment rights.
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@Jazzhead
Here, I’ll cut to the chase for you (And please know that in the interest of decorum I’m not telling you what I really think of you):
If you want mine or any other patriot’s gun (or want us to pay insurance on them), just make sure you have the balls to volunteer to be on the team that starts knocking on doors, don’t let someone else do your dirty work. Screw you, you anti-liberty statist.
So you'll shoot me dead rather than insure your guns? Bend over and enjoy prison life, bubby.
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Only because some here insist on feeding the damned trolls!
Exactly!
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Those who defend motor vehicle registration and insurance aren't seeking to confiscate cars. You are paranoid and a liar to ascribe to me motivations that I tell you repeatedly I don't share. I have no hidden agenda to confiscate guns. Indeed, I seek a solution to the social costs of guns that will NOT confiscate them as the Democrats want. I do NOT support such nonsense as assault weapon bans or taxes on ammunition. An insurance regime is a viable way to address social costs while preserving your freedom have as many guns as your heart desires. Insurance works in a variety of contexts to address costly externalities, mitigate and allocate risk, and allow human beings to interact with each other. It can work with guns as well, and PRESERVE your Second Amendment rights.
You have been told by virtually everybody on this thread that registration of firearms has lead to confiscation WITHOUT FAIL. You have yet to address that, in spite of the many times it's been said.
Ignoring points made to you while continuing to advance yours is classic "arguing in bad faith," and you are still doing it. Now you are approving of prison rape to boot.
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Locking thread for the time being.
@mystery-ak