'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas

[mountaineer]

OH, and I do carry in church. So does the wife.

I do, too, and Mr. M says he will start. Of course, no one at church knows what's in my purse.

The pastor of the church in Colorado where a gunman attacked a few years ago has written a piece for FOX explaining why he doesn't want congregants to carry, but his church has hired armed protectors. I think it probably is more applicable to the megachurch setting than this little church in Texas or the church we attend in rural Pa.

Pastor: Our church had a deadly shooting, too. Here's how we have made it safe
By Brady Boyd

Ten years ago, the church where I pastor, New Life Church, suffered through its darkest day when a gunman came on our property, opened fire with an assault rifle, killing two of our teenage girls, injuring others, before taking his life in the hallway. This Sunday, I was taking a special guest to our memorial site to tell her the miracle story of our healing, when the news broke that another church in South Texas had just experienced the same horror.

A military trained man with an assault rifle with the intent to kill unarmed people is almost impossible to stop. No amount of training could have prepared that tiny church in Texas for this evil. We’re now living in a violent society where even small-town America and small rural churches are not safe.  ...

We live in a state that allows most people to carry concealed weapons and to carry openly if they choose. We discourage our members from bringing guns into the church. In fact, if we know someone has a weapon, we escort them out to their car and watch them put it away. We have plenty of trained and qualified people who are appropriately armed, so extra weapons are not necessary and can actually cause more harm should there be a violent episode.  ...

Excerpted; click on link for full article.

[Polly Ticks]

One man, with no shoes and a gun...

That man had his priorities right.

[TomSea]

Mother killed shielding her four children in Texas church shooting
Reuters Angela Moon 12 hrs ago

Joann Ward pushed her 9-year-old daughter Rihanna to the floor when a gunman sprayed shots inside First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, then embraced her three other children, according to an account of her response shared by a family friend on Facebook.

“I didn’t get shot because I was hiding, and Momma covered Emily, Ryland & Brooke," Rihanna recounted, according to the post by the family friend, Vonda Greek Smith.

Continued at: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/mother-killed-shielding-her-four-children-in-texas-church-shooting/ar-AAuwrOx?li=BBnb7Kz&item=personalization_enabled:false&OCID=ansmsnnews11

[TomSea]

The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front.  The gunman had a semi-automatic,  a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.

There are, in some cities, dozens and dozens of churches and it appears to be actually, hundreds and hundreds in metropolises. So, it will be up to each individual church to decide on security.

[TomSea]

Of course, I wouldn't object to it but I'd hate nonetheless, to see metal detectors in a house of worship.

I guess, Jews "might" have had to deal with this for some time though, if I may say that. They've probably had to face this as a threat at least. One could see how they handle this. We lived near such a temple but our town was pretty quiet. One wouldn't think about this. Perhaps this is mainly an issue in Israel and some large US cities, perhaps.

[Victoria33]

@TomSea

Our main Catholic Priest was an Army sniper - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe.  Our other Priest was a marine - I have to believe he has a weapon under his robe.  I have to believe they are protecting Christ's people.

[thackney]

Of course, I wouldn't object to it but I'd hate nonetheless, to see metal detectors in a house of worship.

Do you believe this guy would have stopped and turned around because of metal detector at the doorway? 

All that would do is assure people could not defend themselves and prevent the congregation from reducing the number of lives taken by a madman.

[Smokin Joe]

The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front.  The gunman had a semi-automatic,  a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.

There are, in some cities, dozens and dozens of churches and it appears to be actually, hundreds and hundreds in metropolises. So, it will be up to each individual church to decide on security.

Let's dispel some of the myths there.

The gunman entered the front of the church, not the rear. For decent security, you'd need people in the front and back.

Semiautomatics are like internal combustion engines. They come in different sizes.  It might be a .22, it might be a .50BMG. The caliber is what determines what damage an individual round will do. In this case he had an AR type 5.56mm (.223) rifle. Standard magazine capacities for that rifle are 30 or 20 rounds. Potent enough, but many concealed carriers carry .45 semiautomatic pistols, another potent and battle proven round. What tips the balance in favor of the shooter is the body armor, forcing any defender to shoot for the legs, a gap in the armor (usually at the sides or shoulder/armpit), or to try for a head shot. The latter two are not easy to hit on a dynamic but nonthreatening target under ordinary circumstances, harder still when the target shoots back.

Even though body armor prevents penetration, without a trauma plate, the impact is still felt, there is still energy transfer. A couple of shooters in the front, engaging at center of mass would have made his day more miserable and impacted his effectiveness, as well as his torso. While those impacts would likely have left only bruises, they would have messed up his control of the situation, and possibly given the defensive shooters time to get that head shot.

When I was a kid, shooting up a house of worship--regardless of which religion--was just considered an especially vile thing to do, real barbarian stuff. But we were a more moral society then, and even the criminal element generally acknowledged that there were some things you just didn't do. Not so any more, apparently.

[TomSea]

3 of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in US history happened in the last 18 months — here's the full list
Hilary Brueck and Skye Gould



Continued at: http://www.businessinsider.com/deadliest-mass-shootings-in-us-history-2017-11

As horrible as these are, I guess what is alarming is that 3 of the shootings are like the headline says, in the past 18 months.

In the total picture, it's damnable it happens at all.  I guess Columbine High School did not even make the list.

It certainly makes one wonder when the next incident could happen. It seems like it died down for awhile.

Gun laws have changed some, I'd mainly look at about the last 25 years or even less of these shootings.

It gets us all talking and it's sad any life is lost but with that said, compared to the whole US population, I don't know if it is that much.

It's like drunk driving deaths, they have come way way down; but it's still unacceptable that such DWI deaths happen but what can one do? Ban cars?

[txradioguy]

Even though body armor prevents penetration, without a trauma plate, the impact is still felt, there is still energy transfer.

@Smokin Joe that right there is important.

Because even a "pea shooter" in the confines of a church sanctuary will momentarily stop a shooter because of the imoact of the round.

People have this misconception that "body armor" equates to bullet proof and that's just not the case...it's a misconception.

[thackney]

The gunman had some serious, serious weaponry, people in church are often vulnerable because to make it really safe, you'd need the ushers to be armed as they are in the back. Most everyone else is you know, in front.  The gunman had a semi-automatic, a lot of concealed weapons might be pea shooters compared to that.

This is from a .380, one of the smaller pistols people will carry, with body armor protection.  One or two or more hits with this at close range is going to change his ability to react and how he proceeds.



http://fox40.com/2017/09/20/although-his-body-armor-stopped-a-bullet-officer-was-still-left-with-huge-bruise/

[edpc]

This is from a .380, one of the smaller pistols people will carry, with body armor protection.  One or two or more hits with this at close range is going to change his ability to react and how he proceeds.

Even with combat body armor, it’s still gonna smack you and hurt like hell.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-UNFSZ8VKU

[thackney]

Even with combat body armor, it’s still gonna smack you and hurt like hell.

Even with the shooter wearing body armor and the defenders armed with small carry pistols, it is tough to continue an attack when having the equivalent of being hit with large hammers.

[Hoodat]

My church has chairs instead of pews.  So everyone is at least armed with a chair.  It makes it much harder to shoot accurately when dozens of people are throwing chairs at you.

[TomSea]

I think the story goes, that the church-goer who fired at Kelley at the Church, fired at Kelley through the window, so, yes, in that situation, one's concealed weapon might work. It all depends on size of church and so on. Some churches are huge, this one doesn't look like it was too big from pictures I've seen.

[Sanguine]

I think the story goes, that the church-goer who fired at Kelley at the Church, fired at Kelley through the window, so, yes, in that situation, one's concealed weapon might work. It all depends on size of church and so on. Some churches are huge, this one doesn't look like it was too big from pictures I've seen.

A church goer fired at POS?  I hadn't read that anywhere.  Got a link?

[txradioguy]

A church goer fired at POS?  I hadn't read that anywhere.  Got a link?

It wasn't a church goer. The person saying that is clueless.

Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.

The SOB that shot up the church was NOT engaged by someone in the church or a church member through a window.

[edpc]

My church has chairs instead of pews.  So everyone is at least armed with a chair.  It makes it much harder to shoot accurately when dozens of people are throwing chairs at you.

Especially in The Church of Bobby Knight.

[Sanguine]

It wasn't a church goer. The person saying that is clueless.

Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.

The SOB that shot up the church was NOT engaged by someone in the church or a church member through a window.

Oh, OK, thanks for clearing that up. 

[thackney]

Stephen Willeford was in his house...heard the gunshots...ran outside saw the shooter...engaged him as he was getting into his escape vehicle then enlisted another gentleman with a truck to give chase.

Hero Who Stopped Texas Gunman: I Couldn’t Have Stopped Him Without My AR-15
http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/07/hero-stopped-texas-gunman-couldnt-stopped-without-ar-15/

[Hoodat]

Especially in The Church of Bobby Knight.

Bobby Knight throws like a girl.

[Suppressed]

Bobby Knight throws like a girl.

Well, he is an immature child.

[TomSea]

For all we know, there may have been a number of church-goers who were armed. Still, this is in the top 5 of worse mass shootings in US history.

[austingirl]

Hero Who Stopped Texas Gunman: I Couldn’t Have Stopped Him Without My AR-15
http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/07/hero-stopped-texas-gunman-couldnt-stopped-without-ar-15/

That's right and he did it barefoot. He believes God protected him and gave him the ability to do what he did. God bless him and the young man who helped him chase the monster.

[TomSea]

Also, the guy left the church, he could have stayed there and kept firing away, concealed weapons may not have had that big of an impact, in fact, the Texas gun man might have gotten killed earlier because he was a coward and left and a coward because he killed himself. The good Sams may not have necessarily changed the situation.