'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas

[Smokin Joe]

@Applewood So  long as I can hold a rifle, I will own one, and I am far from alone.

[Applewood]

@Applewood So  long as I can hold a rifle, I will own one, and I am far from alone.

 

[thackney]

Consider Christ's words when Lazarus was brought back to life.  John 11:35

There is a much bigger picture here.

The versus "Jesus wept." is John 11:35.  It happens before Lazarus is brought back to life, not afterwards. 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A28-44&version=NIV

[Jazzhead]

Ironically,  this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre.   The problem wasn't the law - Kelley should have been in the no-purchase data base, but for human error (the military's failure to provide the information).   We don't need "more laws" to address the age-old problem of garbage-in, garbage-out.   

Even more ironically,  the death count would have been higher had an armed citizen not been nearby to ward off the shooter before police could arrive.   This is hardly a case that puts the argument for more gun control in a better light.   Indeed, the liberal reaction borders on hysteria -  we gotta do Something!  Anything!  Whether it makes sense or is efficacious (or, even worse, would positively erode the community's safety) makes no difference.     

Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment.   I don't own guns,  and don't understand the appeal of gun culture.  But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice.  That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain.    I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not.   That is the essence of citizenship.   

[mountaineer]

Well said, Jazzhead. 

[Cyber Liberty]

Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment.   I don't own guns,  and don't understand the appeal of gun culture.  But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice.  That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain.    I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not.   That is the essence of citizenship.   

Well said, @Jazzhead!  I'm encouraged to read that from you.  Not that long ago, it seemed you were for abrogating that right for some people because of the accident of their residence in your community, but you've come to understand the right applies to others as well. 

[Jazzhead]

Well said, @Jazzhead!  I'm encouraged to read that from you.  Not that long ago, it seemed you were for abrogating that right for some people because of the accident of their residence in your community, but you've come to understand the right applies to others as well.

Thanks, CL.    To me, the essence of the Second Amendment right is the ability to protect one's person, home and property.   The debate to which you refer had to do with the right of a local community to regulate open carry in the public square,  where there are issues of federalism to consider.   

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Ironically,  this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre.

There is nothing that can be done to 'prevent' this.  It is the price of living in a free society.

One can do things to mitigate, but never prevent.

Liberals live in the fantasy land that if one does enough, one can prevent bad things from happening.

That is only possible when freedoms are destroyed.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Oh, I am so sorry to hear that.  If you have any contact with her, please let her know that people all over the country are praying for her, and for her family.

I cannot imagine the grief.  Even with a deep faith, the human pain has to be unbearable.

They need to be lifted up by our prayers!

My wife is on a prayer team and those warriors are at it almost non-stop.

Thanks for the support

[Restored]

The only thing that was going to stop this guy was incarceration. Buying an AK or AR is just a matter of money. If he was going to shoot up a church, he was going to be willing spend a few thousand $ to do it. If he couldn't do it legally, there are other ways. we need to focus on HIM, not the weapon.
Ironically, the Democrats want more restrictive gun laws but they don't want to enforce the ones we have because it just puts more poor voters in jail.
If you want to obtain a fully automatic AK in London, England, you can do it. It's just going to cost you.

[Hoodat]

The versus "Jesus wept." is John 11:35.  It happens before Lazarus is brought back to life, not afterwards.

You are correct, sir.  Point being that Lazarus was in a better place, and Jesus knew it.

[Jazzhead]

There is nothing that can be done to 'prevent' this.  It is the price of living in a free society.

I disagree. 

While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base.    That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.

I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property.   Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child.   Yes,  this horror just might have been prevented -  had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.       

[thackney]

You are correct, sir.  Point being that Lazarus was in a better place, and Jesus knew it.

I don't think I am following your thought process on the verse of his weeping.  But I agree with your sentiment and we can save nuanced discussion for a better thread.

[thackney]

Ironically,  this was an example of an effective and reasonable "gun control" law that should have worked to prevent this massacre.   The problem wasn't the law - Kelley should have been in the no-purchase data base, but for human error (the military's failure to provide the information).   We don't need "more laws" to address the age-old problem of garbage-in, garbage-out.   

Even more ironically,  the death count would have been higher had an armed citizen not been nearby to ward off the shooter before police could arrive.   This is hardly a case that puts the argument for more gun control in a better light.   Indeed, the liberal reaction borders on hysteria -  we gotta do Something!  Anything!  Whether it makes sense or is efficacious (or, even worse, would positively erode the community's safety) makes no difference.     

Now I don't fetishize the Second Amendment.   I don't own guns,  and don't understand the appeal of gun culture.  But I agree with Heller that we all have the natural right to defend ourselves, our homes and property, including by means of firearms if that is our choice.  That right cannot and must not be taken away - especially by those whose only goal is to exploit fear for political gain.    I applaud the two individuals who took it upon themselves to chase this satanic idiot and do what the police could not.   That is the essence of citizenship.   

Well said @Jazzhead

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I disagree. 

While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base.    That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.

I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property.   Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child.   Yes,  this horror just might have been prevented -  had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.     

Passing laws cannot prevent anything.  It mitigates.

The guy can steal a gun and kill.  He doesn't need to get it legally.

Until you understand the difference in English between 'prevent' and 'mitigate', there can be no conversation.

[Suppressed]

@Jazzhead
You nailed it.

[debrawiest]

  One of my daughter's best friends is from Sutherland Springs and it is her mom's family that lost so many.  They are devastated.

I’m so sorry. I will continue to pray for them.

[Cyber Liberty]

Passing laws cannot prevent anything.  It mitigates.

The guy can steal a gun and kill.  He doesn't need to get it legally.

Until you understand the difference in English between 'prevent' and 'mitigate', there can be no conversation.

If existing laws been properly enforced, he should never been allowed to get a firearm. 

This isn't even a Lautenberg Amendment case:  He served a year in the brig for beating his first wife and child sufficiently to cause the child a skull fracture.  In the civilian courts, this would have been charged as a Felony Aggravated Assault, not a simple Misdemeanor, so laws prohibiting his gun ownership existed long before Lautenberg.

[Hoodat]

I disagree. 

While one cannot know for sure, Kelley may have been prevented from legally acquiring the gun he used to shoot up the church had his record of domestic violence been part of the no-purchase data base.    That the system failed this time doesn't mean it will fail next time.

What will be different next time?  Same federal government running the show - the same federal government that puts more effort into making sure Texas can't write its own marriage law than it puts into keeping a simple database updated.

Seriously, what will be different next time?  You seriously think the same federal government that put automatic weapons in the hands of Mexican drug lords - weapons that were used against Texas citizens - that somehow this same federal government will give a damn about keeping a simple database updated to prevent a criminal from purchasing a gun?

Government is the problem - not the solution.  The only thing this Big Brother database is good for is to protect the gun store from being sued.

[Hoodat]

If existing laws been properly enforced, he should never been allowed to get a firearm. 

In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms.  All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons.  Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.

Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.

[Bigun]

In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms.  All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons.  Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.

Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.

My guess is ZERO!

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

@Applewood

Exposes them - as if we Needed any more proof - for what they are: Dictatorial, Lying, Totalitarians with only one Agenda, to seize and hold as much power as the rest of us can be Bulls#$tted into acquiescing to.

It's always packaged and sold as being "For the Greater Good".

Every society that's put the "Greater Good" above the Individual Good has wrought nothing but misery, poverty and millions of filled graves.


The police didn't have time to respond.

It's a meme, and one the antis hate, but true no matter how many tee shirts its been on.

Call a cop, an ambulance, and a pizza. See who gets there first.

This shooter had a history, and the Air Force failed to plug him into the system.

So we have a "System". What possible good would even More System/Laws which FAILED here accomplish if the people responsible for working that system just blew off their responsibility to plug him into it?


GIGO: It fits every information storage and retrieval system imaginable, Garbage In = Garbage Out

The shooter escaped from a mental health facility in 2011.

Those clowns certainly didn't 'cure' him of his maladies. In fact, they probably made him more sociopathic.

The kid who shot up Virginia Tech was considered Withdrawn, Rude, Antisocial, and just not someone people gravitated to.

So they sent him for Mental Health counseling, which only dumped more S##T on his outlook by further alienating him with a Label, as forever damaged, sub human, due to an incurable Mind Disease. It was only AFTER they spit in his face with that crap that he snapped and all those people at VT died.

If the counselors had left him alone, he'd probably still be a pariah - or he might have figured out how life works on his own - but he and his victims would probably still be alive.

Counseling leads to more counseling which leads to drugging.

Here's a visual aid:



Read the labeling: Contains No Active Drug

This drug is sold to make people Mentally Healthy, and the quacks who peddle it all day every day need to be told, on the bling the makers sales rep hands them, that it's free of their money maker.

That's because the Docs who push it know full well better than to ingest the stuff themselves, AND, they know how crooked the drug makers are from day to day contact through reps and headline news. So they're Paranoid/Mentally Ill themselves. Birds of a feather.

If this stuff actually made people Mentally Healthy, why wouldn't we all want the Psychiatrists themselves to be on it?

Catch 22.

Look far enough into school shootings and you'll find psychiatric drugs involved in well over 2/3rds of them over the last 30 years.

And we Still can't poison our whole society with them fast enough:

http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2016/05/govt-mind-control-tops-us-healthcare.html

End of the day there's only 2 sure fire ways of stopping mass murder from anyone.

Put them in jail and keep them there, or an armed citizen.

[musiclady]

Well said, Jazzhead. 

I second (or third, or fourth) that, @Jazzhead !

[Hoodat]

Call a cop, an ambulance, and a pizza. See who gets there first.

A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone.

[Cyber Liberty]

In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms.  All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons.  Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.

Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.

I don't believe any have.