'Mass shooting' reported at Sutherland Springs church in Texas

[Smokin Joe]

In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms.  All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons.  Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.

Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.

None.

[Sanguine]

@Hoodat, what is the answer?

[Cyber Liberty]

I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property.   Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child.   Yes,  this horror just might have been prevented -  had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.     

That law already exists.  What he did to the child is a Felony Aggravated Assault in a civilian court, and if the Air Force had properly reported it to NICS he would have been refused the right to purchase a weapon.  No new laws required.

[Jazzhead]

In 2014, 48,000 convicted felons were caught trying to purchase firearms.  All 48,000 lied on the form about being convicted felons.  Providing false information on the form is in itself a felony.

Take a guess at how many of those 48,000 felons were prosecuted for illegally attempting to purchase a gun.

The point is they were caught - and the gun store didn't sell them the firearm.   

[Jazzhead]

That law already exists.  What he did to the child is a Felony Aggravated Assault in a civilian court, and if the Air Force had properly reported it to NICS he would have been refused the right to purchase a weapon.  No new laws required.

I agree.   The law is efficacious (48,000 caught each year, according to Hoodat),  and targeted to the bad guys, not law-abiding citizens.  It would have worked,  except for garbage in, garbage out. 
 

[Bigun]

The point is they were caught - and the gun store didn't sell them the firearm.

No Sir!  The point is that NONE of them were prosecuted for making false statements on form 4473. Doing that is itself a felony!

[Cyber Liberty]

Thanks, CL.    To me, the essence of the Second Amendment right is the ability to protect one's person, home and property.   The debate to which you refer had to do with the right of a local community to regulate open carry in the public square,  where there are issues of federalism to consider.

If the community where this Church is didn't recognize the right to carry "in the public square" the good guy would never have had the weapon required to have stopped the bad guy.

One's right to self protection does not stop at one's front door.

Small steps, but we're getting there...

[Jazzhead]

No Sir!  The point is that NONE of them were prosecuted for making false statements on form 4473. Doing that is itself a felony!

Then prosecute them.   But even in the absence of prosecution,  they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.   

[TomSea]

There's certainly more info we have to know if one wants to know Willeford's role, it sounds like the shooter was on his way out, near Kelley's own vehicle when Willeford got there per Willeford's own story on the video.  I also heard Kelley was about to execute one more person when Willeford got there.  So, hopefully, there will be a full narrative somewhere.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8

[Bigun]

Then prosecute them.   But even in the absence of prosecution,  they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.

I cannot prosecute them!  That is a matter for our illustrious DOJ!

[Cyber Liberty]

I agree.   The law is efficacious,  and targeted to the bad guys, not law-abiding citizens.  It would have worked,  except for garbage in, garbage out.

Correct.  This is why many on the pro-Second Amendment side say, "If we enforced the laws we have, we would not need new ones."  Meanwhile, every time one of these tragedy happens, the liberals start screaming for new laws that further restrict the rights of lawful owners of firearms.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

@Hoodat

A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone.

Must be a great comfort to antis to know that when they send their daughter off to college if some troglodyte tries to grab her off the street at night he's gonna pee himself and run screaming in terror when she whips out her cell phone and threatens to Call The Police.

[Cyber Liberty]

Then prosecute them.   But even in the absence of prosecution,  they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.

Yes, but the offender is free to attempt to do it again, and maybe next time somebody will make a clerical error in processing the NICS check and he slips through the cracks.  No, there is a reason lying on the form is a prosecutable crime, and that it hasn't happened is a dereliction of the government's duty to enforce the law.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Then prosecute them.   But even in the absence of prosecution,  they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.

You keep repeating these false talking points.

They are not denied anything but the ability to buy legally.

These are people engaged in criminal behavior, why should they be expected to act legally?

[roamer_1]

I support efficacious gun regulation that doesn't take away one's Constitutional right to defend one's self, home and property.   Not blanket bans on classes of firearms, but targeted laws that keep guns out of the hands of bad guys - including a brute who fractured the skull of his infant child.   Yes,  this horror just might have been prevented -  had a bureaucrat not failed to report this man's history of violence to the data base.     

Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.

If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.

There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive.  ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.

THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.

[Cyber Liberty]

There's certainly more info we have to know if one wants to know Willeford's role, it sounds like the shooter was on his way out, near Kelley's own vehicle when Willeford got there per Willeford's own story on the video.  I also heard Kelley was about to execute one more person when Willeford got there.  So, hopefully, there will be a full narrative somewhere.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HEchh0XD8

If Willeford had been prevented from carrying his weapon "in the public square," the murderer would never have been stopped. 

[TomSea]

Kelley was involved in domestic violence,

Articles are being written now on whether domestic violence is a common denominator in these mass shootings.

[austingirl]

I hope that we eventually learn why he was denied a license to carry in Texas. The authorities would not answer that yesterday- calling it protected information.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

@roamer_1

Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.

If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.

There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive.  ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.

THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.

All true, every word.

And that only addresses guns bought through Legal sources, not 'on the street'.

More guns in this country than there are people.

Somebody 100% prohibited can always get them Without going to a licensed gun dealer.

Damn fools in this country are willing to sell heroin.

With morals like that, what's to prevent them from illegal arms trafficking too?

[Smokin Joe]

Then prosecute them.   But even in the absence of prosecution,  they were denied the ability to purchase a firearm.

To legally purchase a firearm, from a dealer. Firearms can be obtained outside the NICS, by stealing one or buying it from someone who did.

[musiclady]

Oh for cryin out loud! There is no No NO such thing.

If the sonofabich that sells your kids drugs can get a gun, if the sonofabich that runs illegals over the border can get a gun, if the banger tipping over grocery stores can get a gun, then this sonofabich can too.

There is NO LAW that will keep guns out of the hands of evil men, because they DON'T FOLLOW THE DAMN LAW!
Do you REALLY think that felons can't buy guns? Even brandy new guns still in the wrapper? Right over the counter?
How completely and incredibly naive.  ALL that takes is to find someone to buy it for you. Or if that isn't convenient, just follow someone who DID buy one home, wait till they leave, and bust in and take the damn thing.

THERE IS *NO* effective law against criminal gun ownership. Not a single damn one. All you will ever wind up doing is make it harder for the good guys to get guns in order to protect your chickenshit asses from the bad guys. Because the bad guys always can get guns. ALWAYS.

The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.

Yes, he may have gotten them anyway, as monsters do, but he didn't HAVE to.

THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed here.

Why wasn't he red flagged multiple times for his previous military discharge, court martial, and his assaults?

The gun seller didn't do anything wrong, according to what he knew, and he armed a cold blooded killer.

He should have known.

[Smokin Joe]

Kelley was involved in domestic violence,

Articles are being written now on whether domestic violence is a common denominator in these mass shootings.

According to accounts, he had also escaped a mental institution or such care. Most of these events have someone who is just not wired right at the center of them.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Escaped mental health clinic.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41907943

[roamer_1]

The problem here is that this monster DID buy his weapons legally.

Yes, he may have gotten them anyway, as monsters do, but he didn't HAVE to.

THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed here.

Why wasn't he red flagged multiple times for his previous military discharge, court martial, and his assaults?

The gun seller didn't do anything wrong, according to what he knew, and he armed a cold blooded killer.

He should have known.

The point is that it is not efficacious ANYWAY. The point is that all the bullcrap and jumpin through hoops doesn't work anywhere near well,  and in the end, doesn't work at all.

The tenor on this thread is what leads invariably to more plastic feelgood 'tightening up' of the laws which don't tighten a damn thing beyond my own ability to buy a gun unhindered.

Well, check that... because I do buy my guns unhindered. Because I go to the same places the criminals do - I buy em off the back of trucks, simply because I can, and because it ain't worth going the legal route. And Uncle Damn Sam doesn't need to know what firearms I may or may not possess. For all he knows, I have only bought two guns in my whole life. And I trade in guns all the time.

Any gun you'd care to mention, I can have in my hands anytime. All I need is enough cash.

And btw, many of my friends were dumbasses in their youth. Many of them can't legally buy a gun, and haven't been able to since they were kids and the judge laid them low... And there ain't nary a one that doesn't own a closet full.

So in my mind, it would be far better to understand that your 'legal means' doesn't mean a dang thing in the real world and nip the inevitable call for 'stronger laws' right in the bud. All you'll be doing is lending credence to liberal hand-wringing - all of which does nothing at all to stop criminals from being criminal.

[Jazzhead]

@roamer_1

All true, every word.

And that only addresses guns bought through Legal sources, not 'on the street'.

More guns in this country than there are people.

Somebody 100% prohibited can always get them Without going to a licensed gun dealer.

Be careful.  It's the "more guns than people" argument that is the most effective liberal argument for gun control.

If law-abiding gun owners want to keep their guns, they are going to have to get comfortable with limited, efficacious measures that keep bad guys from legally purchasing guns.  Such as the data bank law that could have prevented the legal sale of the rifle that Kelley used to mow down worshippers.   

The fact the criminals act outside the law doesn't mean you give up on the idea of having laws altogether.  Legal gun owners will need to live with reasonable restrictions to help reduce the incidence of bad guys getting guns.   Like laws prohibiting felons or perpetrators of domestic violence from buying guns.  Like requirements to register and insure firearms,  so when a gun is stolen or missing, that fact is reported to the police.   Not stupid, symbolic stuff, but real, efficacious measures that reduce the percentage of guns out there "on the street".   

I'm not here to necessarily debate the specific laws that may work or not work.  But I refuse to give in to this mindset that since criminals can "always" get guns illegally there's no reason to have laws at all.    Kelley wasn't a criminal so much as a mental case.   If he had been stopped from buying that rifle because of his domestic violence history, he might not have gunned down that congregation.