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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3150 on: June 14, 2024, 10:49:54 am »
Putin demands more Ukrainian land to end war; Kyiv rejects 'ultimatum'

Vladimir Soldatkin  |  June 14, 2024  |  10:35 AM EDT

MOSCOW, June 14 (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Friday Russia would end the war in Ukraine only if Kyiv agreed to drop its NATO ambitions and hand over the entirety of four provinces claimed by Moscow, demands Kyiv swiftly rejected as tantamount to surrender.

On the eve of a conference in Switzerland to which Russia has not been invited, Putin set out maximalist conditions wholly at odds with the terms demanded by Ukraine, apparently reflecting Moscow's growing confidence that its forces have the upper hand in the war.

He restated his demand for Ukraine's demilitarisation, unchanged from the day he sent in his troops on Feb. 24, 2022, and said an end to Western sanctions must also be part of a peace deal.

He also repeated his call for Ukraine's "denazification", based on what Kyiv calls an unfounded slur against its leadership.
Ukraine said the conditions were "absurd".

"He is offering for Ukraine to admit defeat. He is offering for Ukraine to legally give up its territories to Russia. He is offering for Ukraine to sign away its geopolitical sovereignty," Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak told Reuters.  .  .

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-west-needs-find-way-work-with-russia-2024-06-14/
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3151 on: June 14, 2024, 11:01:29 am »
Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 13, 2024, 08:59:25 pm
Nothing in Eastern Europe is easy or black and white @Cyber Liberty

Crimea was part of Russia from 1783 until Khrushchev unilaterally gave it to Ukraine in 1954.  The people of Crimea have voted for independence from Ukraine and the majority consider themselves Russian.   Rather than occupiers, the majority considered Russia a protector and ally in their efforts to break free of Kiev.

Face value judgements rarely hold up in Eastern Europe. :shrug:


@Right_in_Virginia


Alaska was once part of Russia! Do we give Alaska back to them if they demand it?



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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3152 on: June 14, 2024, 11:03:41 am »
Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray
BREAKING: Russia Proposes Ceasefire to Ukraine
“Ukrainian troops should be completely withdrawn from Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, Kherson and Zaporozhye regions."
Should Ukraine promise to give up plans to join NATO, Putin says that the ceasefire order will be declared immediately and begin negotiations.
9:39 AM · Jun 14, 2024

Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray
By doing this, Russia puts the onus on Zelensky to accept the terms of the ceasefire and gives the United States and NATO an off-ramp to stay out of it despite whatever preexisting agreements they may have. Nothing is stopping Ukraine and the US from working together as long as they don't join NATO.
9:48 AM · Jun 14, 2024

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3153 on: June 14, 2024, 11:19:15 am »
Quote from: kevindavis007 on June 14, 2024, 11:01:29 am

@Right_in_Virginia


Alaska was once part of Russia! Do we give Alaska back to them if they demand it?

I guess so if you cannot distinguish between legitimate purchase and outright theft!
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3154 on: June 14, 2024, 11:23:19 am »
Quote from: mountaineer on June 14, 2024, 11:03:41 am
Should Ukraine promise to give up plans to join NATO, Putin says that the ceasefire order will be declared immediately and begin negotiations.

Ukraine already gave up plans to join NATO in 2021 BEFORE Russia tried to capture Kyiv.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3155 on: June 14, 2024, 12:06:37 pm »
Quote from: mountaineer on June 14, 2024, 11:03:41 am
Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray
BREAKING: Russia Proposes Ceasefire to Ukraine
“Ukrainian troops should be completely withdrawn from Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, Kherson and Zaporozhye regions."
Should Ukraine promise to give up plans to join NATO, Putin says that the ceasefire order will be declared immediately and begin negotiations.
9:39 AM · Jun 14, 2024

Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray
By doing this, Russia puts the onus on Zelensky to accept the terms of the ceasefire and gives the United States and NATO an off-ramp to stay out of it despite whatever preexisting agreements they may have. Nothing is stopping Ukraine and the US from working together as long as they don't join NATO.
9:48 AM · Jun 14, 2024


@mountaineer


Full of crap
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3156 on: June 14, 2024, 12:10:47 pm »
Quote from: kevindavis007 on June 14, 2024, 12:06:37 pm
Full of crap
My posting it was not an endorsement - just putting it out there for discussion.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3157 on: June 14, 2024, 12:13:29 pm »
Quote from: kevindavis007 on June 14, 2024, 12:06:37 pm

@mountaineer


Full of crap

I already knew that about Ian Miles Cheong.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3158 on: June 14, 2024, 12:17:51 pm »
Quote from: mountaineer on June 14, 2024, 11:03:41 am
BREAKING: Russia Proposes Ceasefire to Ukraine
“Ukrainian troops should be completely withdrawn from Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, Kherson and Zaporozhye regions."
Should Ukraine promise to give up plans to join NATO, Putin says that the ceasefire order will be declared immediately and begin negotiations.
9:39 AM · Jun 14, 2024


BREAKING: Hamas Proposes Ceasefire to Israel
“Israeli troops should be completely withdrawn from Israel."
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Offline MeganC

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3159 on: June 14, 2024, 12:58:17 pm »
Quote from: kevindavis007 on June 14, 2024, 11:01:29 am

@Right_in_Virginia


Alaska was once part of Russia! Do we give Alaska back to them if they demand it?

They are indeed demanding it.

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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3160 on: June 14, 2024, 01:21:31 pm »
Quote
Nothing in Eastern Europe is easy or black and white @Cyber Liberty

Crimea was part of Russia from 1783 until Khrushchev unilaterally gave it to Ukraine in 1954.  ...

Fixing it for you: ... until Khrushchev unilaterally gave it back to Ukraine in 1954.

Sadly, Khrushchev, who was Ukrainian, could not resurrect the Ukrainian Tatars slaughtered by the Romanovs and Stalin, nor return the Ukrainian Tatars Stalin forced into exile.

Stalin's exiling of non-Russian non-Georgian ethnic groups is touched on by Solzhenitsyn in Gulag Archipelago. As is Stalin's terror famine against Ukraine. Robert Conquest also wrote about the Holodomor. RiV might learn from these books why Ukrainians would NEVER view Russians as "liberators" or "protectors". But probably would decline.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 03:18:24 pm by PeteS in CA »
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I am not and never have been a leftist.

If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3161 on: June 14, 2024, 05:07:56 pm »
Quote from: Bigun on June 14, 2024, 11:19:15 am
I guess so if you cannot distinguish between legitimate purchase and outright theft!
I’m pretty sure they taught American history way back when she was in elementary school, they did way back when I was :shrug:
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Offline GtHawk

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3162 on: June 14, 2024, 05:13:01 pm »
Quote from: MeganC on June 14, 2024, 12:58:17 pm
They are indeed demanding it.
sellers remorse, tough Shiite and the same goes for Mejico who decided on reconquista  to take the land back.
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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3163 on: June 14, 2024, 06:52:07 pm »
Quote from: GtHawk on June 14, 2024, 05:13:01 pm
sellers remorse, ...

Back in the 19th Century, Russia sold its colony at Fort Ross in California to John (Johann) Sutter (before the Gold Rush) because it was economically unsustainable, and in the 1870s(?) sold their Alaska colony for the same reason. The Yukon gold rush was 20 or 25 years later, and the discovery of oil in Alaska about a century later.

Alt-history is always fraught with uncertainty. I'm not sure what would have happened had Mexico not tried to violate the Treaties of Velasco and bite off a chunk of what had become the State of Texas. Mexico claimed the Nueces River was the "Rio Grande" of the treaties, while Texas and the US claimed the "Rio Grande" of the treaties was the Rio Grande; meaning no insult to those living along the Nueces, it's not very grande. The outcome of the Mexican-American War is known (though I wonder how many know the US paid for the Southwest, in gold and/or silver, per a treaty negotiated without any of the negotiators knowing that gold had been discovered in California). What would have happened had there been no war I couldn't guess. I do know that there was a revolt brewing in (Alta) California, due to Mexican misrule at about the same time the Mex-Am War broke out, but I'm not sure that would have succeeded.
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I am not and never have been a leftist.

If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3164 on: June 15, 2024, 12:08:29 am »
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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3165 on: June 15, 2024, 12:08:56 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3166 on: June 15, 2024, 12:10:01 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3167 on: June 15, 2024, 12:10:35 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3168 on: June 15, 2024, 12:15:26 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3169 on: June 15, 2024, 12:17:07 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3170 on: June 15, 2024, 12:18:05 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3171 on: June 15, 2024, 12:20:45 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3172 on: June 15, 2024, 12:21:27 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3173 on: June 15, 2024, 12:25:23 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #3174 on: June 15, 2024, 12:31:17 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-
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