The Chicken Littles Are Hammering Trump on Trade, but Charles Payne's Truth Bombs Blow Their Theorie

[DB]

They were both. Study up on it.

It was an economic weapon of the crown - and it started a war that changed the world.

[Bigun]

You buy it. Lots of it and stockpile if you need to.

If they are selling at a loss take advantage of it. It corrects itself.

And/or fix it so that YOU can produce it even more efficiently than they can!

[jpsb]

You buy it. Lots of it and stockpile if you need to.

If they are selling at a loss take advantage of it. It corrects itself.

So we should just let China take over our steel making industry? You do know that steel in a vital
national product. US military uses lots of steel to make tanks and ships and all sorts of stuff. You
want us to be dependent on a foreign power for steel?

It is going to take 3 months to restart a blast furnace in Ill. The only reason it can be restarted
is because it kept warm for the last two years. Building one takes years. It is stupid to let China
or any other nation take over the steel market in the USA.

[DB]

And/or fix it so that YOU can produce it even more efficiently than they can!

The bottom line is you compete or you fade away. You can't hide from competition. You can try but you'll find yourself in the dust bin of history.

[Bigun]

The bottom line is you compete or you fade away. You can't hide from competition. You can try but you'll find yourself in the dust bin of history.

   Protectionist trade policy is a complete loser and ALWAYS has been!

[jpsb]

And/or fix it so that YOU can produce it even more efficiently than they can!

The Chinese are dumping steel, no way you can compete with that.

Rockefeller would build a gas station across the street from a competitor. He would lower the
price of his gas until he drove that competitor out of business. He made his fortune doing so.
Shell got smart and every place John D built a gas station Shell built one too. So John couldn't
put Shell out of business by dumping gas.

[DB]

So we should just let China take over our steel making industry? You do know that steel in a vital
national product. US military uses lots of steel to make tanks and ships and all sorts of stuff. You
want us to be dependent on a foreign power for steel?

It is going to take 3 months to restart a blast furnace in Ill. The only reason it can be restarted
is because it kept warm for the last two years. Building one takes years. It is stupid to let China
or any other nation take over the steel market in the USA.

If China is providing it at a loss then they will stop providing it. If they're making profit on it while shipping it half way around the world, maybe the the real problem is on our end... The primary reason we can't compete is the cost of energy and the extremism from the EPA. Environuts have done everything in their power to increase the cost of energy - and that has profound consequences on everyone's standard of living while being hidden in the cost of everything.

In short you have to fix the cause and not put band-aids on the symptoms. You either compete in this world or you don't. Once a country goes from fierce competitor to protectionist it has peaked and falls into a downward spiral of irrelevance.

[jpsb]

If China is providing it at a loss then they will stop providing it. If they're making profit on it while shipping it half way around the world, maybe the the real problem is on our end... The primary reason we can't compete is the cost of energy and the extremism from the EPA. Environuts have done everything in their power to increase the cost of energy - and that has profound consequences on everyone's standard of living while being hidden in the cost of everything.

In short you have to fix the cause and not put band-aids on the symptoms. You either compete in this world or you don't. Once a country goes from fierce competitor to protectionist it has peaked and falls into a downward spiral of irrelevance.

@DB

You do not understand predatory trade practices. China is selling steel at a loss so they can take
over our steel market and drive our steel producers out of business. Now what is your solution? 

[DB]

I do understand.

You don't understand that we can't hide from it. We could easily compete without all the government restraints put on us.

The military could simply mandate that all iron used in products delivered to it must come from the US to keep that industry alive until China can't afford to dump anymore. But I suspect that the real issue isn't China dumping. It is China's energy is much cheaper and we can't compete with that without us doing something to lower our energy costs.

[DB]

@DB

You do not understand predatory trade practices. China is selling steel at a loss so they can take
over our steel market and drive our steel producers out of business. Now what is your solution? 

Look at your own graph. US energy is 50% higher than China. Iron and aluminum require a large amount of energy to manufacture. That 50% is a BIG deal. I'll also add 2011 was a long time ago. "Renewable" energy mandates have increase substantially since then.

[jpsb]

I do understand.

You don't understand that we can't hide from it. We could easily compete without all the government restraints put on us.

The military could simply mandate that all iron used in products delivered to it must come from the US to keep that industry alive until China can't afford to dump anymore. But I suspect that the real issue isn't China dumping. It is China's energy is much cheaper and we can't compete with that without us doing something to lower our energy costs.

China is a communist nation and can afford to do just about anything it wants thanks to our
horrible trade policy with them. We made them an economic super power by sending most
of our manufacturing to them. Now they want our steel making industry. Thank goodness
Trump is fighting back.

Our energy costs are not much higher than China.

And China places numerous barriers to goods made in the USA. We have hardly any barriers to
Chinese imports. China is playing us for fools and we have been fools.

[txradioguy]

If anyone is curious as to where a lot of this trade imbalance started...I direct you to May-September 2000 when President Clinton signed into law...a piece of legislation granting China permanent normal trade relations (PNTR).

Before 2000 it was renewed (and sometimes not renewed) for two and three year increments IIRC depending on how China was behaving.

Billy Jeff went and gave with China PNTR it granted them all trade advantages, such as low tariffs, that any other nation also receives. Thus, a nation with MFN status will not be discriminated against and will not be treated worse than any other nation with MFN status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations


That's when China really started dumping cheap good and materials into the U.S. and undermining our industry.


ETA: If you want to start to force China to play nice on the world stage...then what Trump should do is forget this stupid tariff BS and revoke the PNTR agreement with China and start going year by year with them again.

[Suppressed]

China is a communist nation and can afford to do just about anything it wants thanks to our
horrible trade policy with them.

Oh yes...magic beans again.

Just because you're communist, you can afford anything...reality and laws of economics don't matter...


 

[DB]

China is a communist nation and can afford to do just about anything it wants thanks to our
horrible trade policy with them. We made them an economic super power by sending most
of our manufacturing to them. Now they want our steel making industry. Thank goodness
Trump is fighting back.

Our energy costs are not much higher than China.

And China places numerous barriers to goods made in the USA. We have hardly any barriers to
Chinese imports. China is playing us for fools and we have been fools.

I see, 50% higher energy costs is no big deal... In an industry where the cost of producing its product is primarily the cost of energy...

[jpsb]

If anyone is curious as to where a lot of this trade imbalance started...I direct you to May-September 2000 when President Clinton signed into law...a piece of legislation granting China permanent normal trade relations (PNTR).

Before 2000 it was renewed (and sometimes not renewed) for two and three year increments IIRC depending on how China was behaving.

Billy Jeff went and made PNTR with China permanent and granting them all trade advantages, such as low tariffs, that any other nation also receives. Thus, a nation with MFN status will not be discriminated against and will not be treated worse than any other nation with MFN status.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations


That's when China really started dumping cheap good and materials into the U.S. and undermining our industry.

True but I believe Daddy Bush had a lot to do with that too. Also wasn't it passed in a lame duck
session like most of the dirty deeds done by Congress.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Oh yes...magic beans again.

Just because you're communist, you can afford anything...reality and laws of economics don't matter...


 

Same way they don't matter here, in Govt. $20 Trillion in run up credit cards drawn on the labor of future generations.

In China you're either a Govt/Military insider, or you're not in the game.

Chinese banks are owned by the Chinese Govt. They have been offering business loans at negative interest. That means Govt. is Paying itself to borrow Govt. money to expand Govt. businesses.

When you own everything, you pull economic theorums right out of your A##, just because it's politically expedient at the moment, and the consequences don't matter because they're not your fault. Wrong headed thinking and acting was needful for The Revolution.

[Bigun]

The Chinese are dumping steel, no way you can compete with that.

Rockefeller would build a gas station across the street from a competitor. He would lower the
price of his gas until he drove that competitor out of business. He made his fortune doing so.
Shell got smart and every place John D built a gas station Shell built one too. So John couldn't
put Shell out of business by dumping gas.

Sure there is!  We need to take the gloves off and do it!

[jpsb]

I see, 50% higher energy costs is no big deal... In an industry where the cost of producing its product is primarily the cost of energy...

50% of small number is also a small number. Other countries have a much higher energy cost and
still make steel. France and Germany for example. The issue is do we want to keep the ability make
steel here or do we want to out source that to China too.

Maybe we could contract them to defend us too, since we'd out sourced just about every thing
to them.

[Bigun]

How the U.S. Squandered Its Steel Superiority
Spoiler alert: Unfair trade practices of foreign nations had nothing to do with it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-03-05/steel-history-shows-how-america-lost-ground-to-europe

[Hoodat]

You buy it. Lots of it and stockpile if you need to.

If they are selling at a loss take advantage of it. It corrects itself.

↑↑↑↑↑↑
 THIS

[Hoodat]

So we should just let China take over our steel making industry?

China isn't taking over our steel-making industry.  They have their own steel-making industry to deal with, and it is currently in bigtime trouble.

You do know that steel in a vital national product. US military uses lots of steel to make tanks and ships and all sorts of stuff. You
want us to be dependent on a foreign power for steel?

I want to get the best deal possible when it comes to steel.  And if US manufacturers are unable to comply with my steel order at the price I am willing to pay, then I have no problem whatsoever going to a foreign producer.

It is stupid to let China or any other nation take over the steel market in the USA.

China makes up less than 2% of US Steel imports.  It doesn't even rank in the top ten.

What's stupid is paying more for steel than you have to.  If US Steel companies hadn't relied on protectionism for all those years as an excuse to sit on their asses, raise their prices, and piss on consumers, then maybe they wouldn't be out of business now.

[jpsb]

You are not a patriotic American you are a globalist consumer. The Marxists are going eat your
lunch.

[Hoodat]

You do not understand predatory trade practices. China is selling steel at a loss so they can take
over our steel market and drive our steel producers out of business.

China is selling crude steel at a loss because their government did a lousy job at central planning.  Instead of producing steel to meet demand, they produce steel to hit some artificial production target, and now they are screwed because they can't stop producing steel that no one wants to buy.  So they use this steel to build bridges and buildings that collapse.

But let's talk about a real player here - South Korea.  They produce roughly 7/8^ths the crude steel that the US produces.  But unlike China, they take that crude product and refine it into high quality finished goods like ships, tankers, and oil platforms.

Or how about Japan - a country that is dependent upon ore as well as energy imports.  Yet they produce more crude steel than the US.  And on top of that, they emphasize specialty steel made to order in quantities that are not available in the US due to the inflexibility of the protectionist mindset of US steel producers.

But back to this imagined takeover of the US market.  Let's say that the US stopped producing steel today.  There are plenty of players on the world stage that would be more than happy to compete for our steel business with Japan, India, and Russia at the top of the list.

[Hoodat]

You are not a patriotic American

Gee, that sounds like something John Kerry's wife would say.  And all because I believe in freedom of choice.  Go figure.

[Hoodat]

How the U.S. Squandered Its Steel Superiority
Spoiler alert: Unfair trade practices of foreign nations had nothing to do with it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-03-05/steel-history-shows-how-america-lost-ground-to-europe

Thank you @Bigun .  Great article.



“As soon as prices began to rise so that the steel companies began to be profitable, they stopped modernizing,” he said. “It's only under intense competitive pressure -- both internally from the mini-mills, and externally from the Japanese and the Koreans -- that the big steel companies have been forced to modernize.”

Those who ignore human nature will be left in the economic dustbin.