Author Topic: The Chicken Littles Are Hammering Trump on Trade, but Charles Payne's Truth Bombs Blow Their Theorie  (Read 9648 times)

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Offline edpc

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Uh oh @edpc.  Looks like you won a screening of Emjay's latest picture:

 :silly:

You're killing me with the graphics @INVAR
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Hoodat

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I have freely admitted I don't fully understand, free trade, fair trade, tariffs, etc.

That part is clear.  Yet your admission doesn't prevent you from drawing a conclusion.


However, much of what @jpsb just sounds true and sensible and that's more than I can say for you.

Enlighten me, Emjay.  Which part "sounds" the best?  Is it the part when he get is completely wrong describing historical events?  Or is it the part where he completely abandons the economic benefit part, adopting instead the all-out war against the Chicoms?  Or is it the part where he fails again and again and again to explain how raising taxes created economic growth?

Come to think of it, you haven't been able to explain that one either.  So it all comes down to the futile exercise of people who know the historical events and the economic principles driving them trying to share that knowledge with lemmings that are rushing towards the cliff edge.  So it is your choice whether to stop and listen, and above all else THINK!  Or you can continue forward undeterred, convincing yourself how the voice beyond the cliff edge "just sounds true and sensible" without actually thinking about what was said.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Concerned

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I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline INVAR

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:silly:

You're killing me with the graphics @INVAR

When they fail to baffle us with bullshit, it's time we shine them with da shizzle. 


Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Emjay

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Look up strawman argument. The above is an example of it.

It is not.

It's a discussion of what government interference with the economy can do to the country in the hands of people like Obama.

It's entirely apropos to a discussion of government policies toward industry and trade.

I wish some of you people would grow up, grow smart, or give up.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline INVAR

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It is not.

It's a discussion of what government interference with the economy can do to the country in the hands of people like Obama.

That's funny because we're discussing what government interference via tariffs does to the economy and free market in the hands of someone like Trump and imbeciles who think taxing the American people in order to limit their choices and start a trade war is a good thing.

I wish some of you people would grow up, grow smart, or give up.

Perhaps put us ALL on ignore lady, and spare yourself the grief you are obviously beset with upon reading this board.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Hoodat

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It is not.

It's a discussion of what government interference with the economy can do to the country in the hands of people like Obama.

It's entirely apropos to a discussion of government policies toward industry and trade.

I wish some of you people would grow up, grow smart, or give up.

So help me out here, Emjay.  Explain to me why we should expect a different result when Trump implements the same policy Obama implemented.

As a follow-up, why should we expect the communism that failed under Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Ho Chi Mihn, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, and Hugo Chavez to suddenly work under Bernie Sanders?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Emjay

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That part is clear.  Yet your admission doesn't prevent you from drawing a conclusion.


Enlighten me, Emjay.  Which part "sounds" the best?  Is it the part when he get is completely wrong describing historical events?  Or is it the part where he completely abandons the economic benefit part, adopting instead the all-out war against the Chicoms?  Or is it the part where he fails again and again and again to explain how raising taxes created economic growth?

Come to think of it, you haven't been able to explain that one either.  So it all comes down to the futile exercise of people who know the historical events and the economic principles driving them trying to share that knowledge with lemmings that are rushing towards the cliff edge.  So it is your choice whether to stop and listen, and above all else THINK!  Or you can continue forward undeterred, convincing yourself how the voice beyond the cliff edge "just sounds true and sensible" without actually thinking about what was said.

When people who actually know something about economic principles differ on this issue as many of them do, it is obvious that there are two valid viewpoints about it.

You and a couple of others started with pre-set emotions and have convinced yourselves that you are all-knowing on the subject.

You are not.

Since you people claim to be So Sure you are right, why do you get so hysterical when people make a valid argument against your point of view?

I'm not sure what will happen with tariffs and I admit it.  You aren't sure either but your are too smug to admit it.

If I can remember any of your names in a few months when we see what happens, (and I kinda hope I can't) I will come back and say I told you so.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Hoodat

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Since you people claim to be So Sure you are right, why do you get so hysterical when people make a valid argument against your point of view?

Whoa, hold the phone.  I have yet to see a "valid" argument against it.  In fact, I have yet to see any argument at all.  But I will ask again.  Can you make the case that raising taxes will result in economic growth?  If you can make the case, then do it.  Let's see your argument out in the open so that we can all discuss it.  But if you can't make the case, then stop BS'ing us about there being two valid arguments.  Because up until now, there has been only one.


I'm not sure what will happen with tariffs and I admit it.  You aren't sure either but your are too smug to admit it.

I will continue to stand by the historical evidence, which is more than you have to stand by.  Yet you call me 'smug'?  You stand by what "sounds" good to you, without actually thinking about what was said.  Yet you call me "smug".
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Concerned

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When people who actually know something about economic principles differ on this issue as many of them do, it is obvious that there are two valid viewpoints about it.

You and a couple of others started with pre-set emotions and have convinced yourselves that you are all-knowing on the subject.

You are not.

Since you people claim to be So Sure you are right, why do you get so hysterical when people make a valid argument against your point of view?

I'm not sure what will happen with tariffs and I admit it.  You aren't sure either but your are too smug to admit it.

If I can remember any of your names in a few months when we see what happens, (and I kinda hope I can't) I will come back and say I told you so.

Sure there are different viewpoints on tariffs, but do you really believe there are the same number (and same amount of prominence) of the economists and knowledgeable folks who for and against tariffs?  370 prominent economists came out against Trump's economic policies (including tariffs) before the election.  Even Trump adviser Stephen Moore, Trump supporter Larry Kudlow, and prominent economist Arthur Laffer have come out against these tariffs.  More than 100 Republican Congressmen have sent a letter expressing "deep concerns" on Trump's tariffs.  Sure, there are some economists (on the fringe IMO) who think tariffs are a good thing, but the vast majority of prominent, respected (at least IMO) economists are against them, and they're against them, I think, primarily because they don't have a history of working (at least in the past 100 years or so).

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/01/370-top-economists-publish-scathing-letter-against-dangerous-destructive-trump.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/03/kudlow-mr-president-tariffs-are-really-tax-hikes.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/republicans-sign-letter-urging-trump-back-off-on-tariffs/

I adore facts and data and abhor lies and liars.

Offline goodwithagun

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 :silly: :silly: :silly: Damn @INVAR , you are good!
I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline EasyAce

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I'm not sure what will happen with tariffs and I admit it.
This may help you . . .

Think of it this way: You run a huge “trade deficit” with the grocery store. Why not grow your own food? Well, you’re not
very good at growing food. And if you do, the grocer will not have money to buy what you make, or to give to the bank to fund your
mortgage.

So, trade is good. And tariffs? Tariffs are not good. Tariffs on steel hurt businesses that use steel, especially those that compete with
imported products made of steel. Tariffs hurt consumers, who pay more for steel-using products. But perhaps the greatest damage is
to the steel industry itself. Tariffs, like all protection, shield the industry from competition. And industries shielded from competition
do not innovate, do not cut costs, do not make better products. Only when the Big Three faced import competition did they start to
make better cars, and cut costs.

. . . Why is this so hard to understand? Tariffs, like all protection from competition, are great for the protected business and its workers,
at least for a while. If you’re a practical businessperson you think the way to get the economy going is to just to replicate for the economy
what is good for your business, and hand out protection to everyone. But protection only helps one business at the expense of all the
others, and at the expense of consumers, and the damage is worse than the gain. What is good for an individual business is not good,
scaled up, for the economy as a whole. Business people and bankers turned policy makers miss that.

Tariffs, like other protections, also help visible, large, and politically powerful constituencies. The larger pain is spread throughout the
economy, in ways most of us may not even notice in day-to-day living. But it adds up.

---John H. Cochrane, from "Trump’s Tariffs Will Hurt Trade, and Trade Is a Good Thing — Really," Cato Institute.

. . . [D]uring the 2016 campaign, Bernie (Sanders) had explicitly called for tariffs on steel. Hillary Clinton had also adopted a remarkably
anti-trade posture. Many people are rightly pointing out that Trump’s rejection of the Trans-Pacific Partnership has left the United States
dangerously isolated and economically disadvantaged in Asia, but they forget that Hillary too had campaigned on pulling out of the trade
pact.

Indeed, while Trump’s call for a trade war has shocked Republicans, it has been praised by Democrats, including extreme leftists such as
Sherrod Brown.

For Democrats, of course, opposition to trade fits in with their worldview. Both Hillary and Bernie believed that government should manage
the economy and pick winners and losers. Republicans, on the other hand, have at least argued in favor of free markets, the ability of
Americans to buy and sell with whomever they choose. President Trump has now firmly embraced the “government knows best” position.
The regulation-cutting president now supports regulation of large segments of the economy, a move that will harm countless American
industries that rely on affordable steel to manufacture products sold at home and abroad

Likewise, Republicans have long been nothing if not the anti-tax party. It is a staple of Republican campaigns — from local sheriff to presidential
— to accuse their Democratic opponent of wanting to raise taxes, especially taxes on the middle class. But tariffs are nothing more than a tax
— a tax that will hit the working poor and middle class the hardest. Some estimates suggest that steel tariffs, for example, could add as much
as $300 to the cost of a car. Worse, when Trump’s advisers dismiss the impact of these tax hikes on Americans, they sound suspiciously like Nancy
Pelosi calling the benefits of Republican tax cuts “crumbs.”

And it certainly seems hard to argue that Democrats are the party of special interests when President Trump tosses out policy proposals while
meeting publicly with industry leaders and lobbyists. The last time steel tariffs were imposed, they cost 200,000 American jobs, according to
some estimates. That’s more than the total number of jobs in the American steel industry. Republicans balked at Obama’s handouts to insurance
companies; conservatives should treat Trump’s latest move on steel as no different.

Until recently, Trump supporters have been able to excuse his most egregious behavior by pointing to the conservative achievements of his
first year in office. “At least he’s not Hillary” has been the almost reflexive response to his latest tweet or controversial comments. But
conservative support for the “lesser of two evils” needn’t devolve into mindlessly adopting the leftist positions of the president. Fox News
host Sean Hannity, who once voiced support for free markets, now praises the president for “making good on his campaign promise to
rebuild American industry in the face of cheap and unregulated foreign goods.” That the president has enacted conservative priorities in
his first year is no reason to praise the anti-free-market policies he is now promoting.

Democrats, of course, will have their own problem if Trump transforms into some sort of big-spending, high-taxing, pro-regulation Hillary-
Sanders clone. Will they continue to “resist” if the Trump agenda becomes their own?

---Michael D. Tanner, from "Trump Returns to His Democratic Roots," Cato Institute.

Trump makes it sound as if our choice is between producing 100 percent of our steel (and having a country) or producing no
steel (and presumably losing our country). He also implies that we are close to having no steel industry in this country and that, as such, we
should panic. Nonsense.

As I wrote for
Reason two days ago:

The domestic steel industry is not vanishing — far from it. 70 percent of the steel bought for use in the United States is produced
here in the USA. Also, American steel production hasn’t changed much over the past decades. In fact, since 2010 it’s actually
increased.

A recent AP story reports the following:

The U.S. steel industry last year earned more than $2.8 billion, up from $714 million in 2016 and a loss in 2015, according to
the Commerce Department. And the industry added more than 8,000 jobs between January 2017 and January 2018.

And the steel industry has been doing well in recent years:

Even before Trump mentioned the tariff last Thursday, the price of the benchmark U.S.-made hot-rolled steel had reached the
highest level since May 2011, according to S&P Global Platts. The price surged even higher on the tariff news.

“We finished 2017 in a good position. We look forward to 2018,” U.S. Steel CEO David Burritt told industry analysts Feb. 1, according to a transcript
at the website Seeking Alpha. He continued: “We’re seeing increased demand from our customers and have rescheduled some projects to ensure
that we can make enough steel to support our customers’ needs.”

If you believe that steel jobs would come back to the U.S. if — and only if — China started behaving as a perfect free-market economy and was a
free-trade role model, there is this:

In the 1980s, American steelmakers needed 10.1 man-hours to produce a ton of steel; now they need 1.5 man-hours, says
Joe Innace of S&P Global Platts.

Have you seen steel factories these days?

Most American steel is now made at super-efficient mini mills, which use electric arc furnaces to turn scrap metal into steel. (Traditional integrated steel
mills make steel from scratch, feeding iron ore and coking coal into blast furnaces.) Some mini-mills need just 0.5 man-hours to produce a ton of steel,
Innace says.

This explains why steel employment peeked in 1953 at 650,000 and stands at 143,000 today . . .

---Veronique de Rugy, from "The U.S. Steel Industry: A Reality Check," National Review.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline XenaLee

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But if you go back and look at what he said before he became so enamored with Trump...which actually started around 2011 he's totally changed from the belief system that got him to where he is today.

Rush has a very basic belief system when it comes to politics.... much like mine.  He hates, loathes and despises anything to do with the radical idiot left.... almost as much as I do.  And as long as Trump opposes (vs. appeases) the idiot left, Rush will be a fan and supporter.  I can definitely relate to that belief system.   :laugh:
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline EasyAce

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Rush has a very basic belief system when it comes to politics.... much like mine.  He hates, loathes and despises anything to do with the radical idiot left.... almost as much as I do.  And as long as Trump opposes (vs. appeases) the idiot left, Rush will be a fan and supporter.  I can definitely relate to that belief system.   :laugh:
I think most of us here can relate to belief in opposing the radical, idiot left.

But we should beware concurrently of the radical, idiot right. They can do almost as much damage to the cause of preserving what remains of our freedom as anything
the idiot left can do.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline XenaLee

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When they fail to baffle us with bullshit, it's time we shine them with da shizzle.

Lol...."da shizzle"....reminds me of Little Nicky.

No denying your talent, dude!
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline XenaLee

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I think most of us here can relate to belief in opposing the radical, idiot left.

But we should beware concurrently of the radical, idiot right. They can do almost as much damage to the cause of preserving what remains of our freedom as anything
the idiot left can do.

I don't consider the establishment elitists or the RINOs in the GOP to be part of the right, idiot or no.  No matter what they choose to call themselves, it still equates to them carrying the water for the left and/or enacting leftist policies.  Got anyone in mind, specifically, here?  (just curious)
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline INVAR

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Rush has a very basic belief system when it comes to politics.... much like mine.  He hates, loathes and despises anything to do with the radical idiot left.... almost as much as I do.  And as long as Trump opposes (vs. appeases) the idiot left, Rush will be a fan and supporter.  I can definitely relate to that belief system.   :laugh:

Except that is not a belief system based on principles any longer, it becomes an ideology that simply despises whatever position a Leftist might have... even if it is a correct or neutral one ala; opposing Trump on 'Grab the guns now, due process later'.  Some Leftists did not like that, and yet Rush Trumpsplained it away.

Trump is not opposing the idiot Left with imposing tariffs on steel.  He is joining their agenda with this appeasement of Union Bosses and Rust Belt Democrats by hiking taxes on Americans so that their choices are limited or so expensive that they can be corralled to purchase what the government wants them to purchase.  That is what we expect Democrats to do to protect their constituencies and rake in more revenue for them to spend.

That is how crony fascism becomes institutionalized.

What Rush and the other radio blowhards are doing is Trumpsplaining how such a move is good, and "Conservative", which illustrates that Limbaugh is no longer governed by the principles he spent 3 decades preaching, but has abandoned them for the game and sport of Trumpolitics, because get evenism is now a 'Conservative' trait in this brave new Populism.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Lol...."da shizzle"....reminds me of Little Nicky.

No denying your talent, dude!

Thanks but we have to credit Hoodat for the term 'da shizzle'.  It's not one I use in my lexicon, but it has a funny ring to it.

I also have to credit Pookie for the weekly inspirations.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline EasyAce

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I don't consider the establishment elitists or the RINOs in the GOP to be part of the right, idiot or no.  No matter what they choose to call themselves, it still equates to them carrying the water for the left and/or enacting leftist policies.  Got anyone in mind, specifically, here?  (just curious)
I think of the RINO contingency, and also the alt-right, mostly. The talk radio wingnuts left and right I don't even bother with,
I tired of those nattering knuckleheads a long time ago (well, maybe not Charlie Sykes, but I don't live where I can listen to
him so I have to watch for his essays; I'm now reading his book, How the Right Lost Its Mind), and you'd have to have
me at gunpoint to truck with what became of Breitbart after Andy Breitbart died.

It's awful tempting to pin as an idiot anyone who doesn't believe in freedom; in individual rights and responsibility; and, in
properly-construed government---government whose sole legitimate business, other than defending us from enemies
actual and provably imminent from abroad and predators (real predators, if you please, not mere vicemongers)
at home, is staying the hell out of your business, my business, everyone's business, until or unless one would
obstruct or abrogate another's equivalent rights . . . as opposed to the improperly-consecrated State we have now and have
had for several generations, a State that pokes its nose into every last piece of our business whether it is competent or
constitutionally sanctioned to do so. But some of them aren't idiots, merely misinformed or misled.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline jpsb

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I don't even know how you feel about Gitmo, but that's just an example of certain ideas or concepts scaring the pants off some people.

Anyway, I appreciate your continuing to post on this subject ... in fact, your knowledgable posts are what keep me reading this thread.

Why thank you  :beer:

I spent most of 1970/71 at Gitmo pretending the Cubans were attacking.  It was fun, I enjoyed being stationed there.

Offline jpsb

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@Hoodat

Excellent and thoroughly factual post from beginning to end!

IF we would just put our on tax policy in order the rest would take care of itself!

The problem the elites see is that putting our on tax policy in order takes away most of the power Washington has over us!

@Hoodat @Bigun

I am pretty sure that Trump either eliminated or greatly reduced the tax on income earned
abroad.

As I have repeatedly said the argument for keeping the ability to make steel and aluminum
here is national security. I do not want to have to rely on foreign power for anything vital to our
national security. 

We will see how the economics plays out, but I am tired of being played for a sucker by the
world community on trade. China places a 25% tariff on cars made in the USA. We have a
2.5% tariff on cars made in China. That is crazy, they get almost free access to our market
and we get zilch in return. No more.  EU places a 10% tariff, again we charge EU 2.5%.

Offline jpsb

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Limbaugh has gone True Believer and has discarded any credibility to anything he has ever paid lip service to.  I continue to find my dumping his services and turning him off during the closing days of the primary in 2016 was good discernment of where he was going to end up.

@INVAR @Bigun @Hoodat @Emjay

Facts (as opposed to opinions) seem to indicate that Trump knows what he is doing.

Nonfarm payrolls increase by 313,000 in February vs. 200,000 est.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/09/nonfarm-payrolls-february.html

Online Bigun

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@Hoodat @Bigun

I am pretty sure that Trump either eliminated or greatly reduced the tax on income earned
abroad.

As I have repeatedly said the argument for keeping the ability to make steel and aluminum
here is national security. I do not want to have to rely on foreign power for anything vital to our
national security. 

We will see how the economics plays out, but I am tired of being played for a sucker by the
world community on trade. China places a 25% tariff on cars made in the USA. We have a
2.5% tariff on cars made in China. That is crazy, they get almost free access to our market
and we get zilch in return. No more.  EU places a 10% tariff, again we charge EU 2.5%.

@jpsb @Hoodat

And what we keep telling you is that NOBODY would be capable of playing us for suckers IF we had our own house in order!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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@INVAR @Bigun @Hoodat @Emjay

Facts (as opposed to opinions) seem to indicate that Trump knows what he is doing.

Nonfarm payrolls increase by 313,000 in February vs. 200,000 est.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/09/nonfarm-payrolls-february.html

I certainly have not argued that Trump is not doing good things.  But tariffs aren't one o9f them IMHO.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien