Donald Trump: You have to take out terrorists families

[Fishrrman]

sinkspur wrote above:
"Even in WWII, Dresden and Tokyo were about destroying ordinance factories and bombing methods were very inexact."

Claiming that "bombing methods were very inexact" sounds like something right out of the obama lexicon.

Have you ever looked at pictures of Dresden during and after the firebombing?
You've got to be hopelessly "inexact" to end up with results like that.

Such total destruction implies two things to me:
1. Intent, or, in lieu of that,
2. Incompetence.

Dresden had relatively little military significance, which is why it was left intact for so long.

At some point, it became necessary to "make an example".
And the Allies succeeded spectacularly at makin' it!

[sinkspur]

The only reason sink spur 's taking this position is because Donald Trump said it. Period. End of chapter verse and book.

No it's not.  It is immoral to target innocent civilians in a war.  The US hasn't done that since WWII.  If innocents are killed as a result of targeting terrorists and there is no other way to get them, that's a different matter.

What Trump is saying is killing a terrorists family as either an act of revenge or an attempt to intimidate the terrorist. That's Mafia stuff.

[truth_seeker]

Alive!

Precisely. That is what motivated internment during WWII, when we decided to err on the side of safety.

We put up submarine nets for harbors, instituted blackouts, etc. The Japanese shelled Ellwood oil field north of Santa Barbara, shelled a coastal location in Oregon, put incendiaries on balloons that went all over North America. And there WERE operatives in the US.

We did NOT kill, torture those that we interned and they could serve in the military.

But that was back in the olde dayes, when we still had common sense and survival instinct.

[truth_seeker]

What were Hiroshima and Nagasaki about, then?

A supreme act of humanitarianism. Saved thousand of lives on both sides.

To not defend ourselves is immoral. To kill some civilians to weaken the enemy, perhaps make them cease fire, is a sound tactic.

To put the enemy before yourself, is suicidal.

[Free Vulcan]

Trump said he would take out the families of terrorists.  His son said that's what he meant.  Is Trump not clear enough for you?

You're twisting and side-stepping again. Did he mean general things like bombing campaigns, or specific things like SEAL ops? You seem to know what he's saying one minute, but not the next.

[Scottftlc]

Targeting innocent civilians is immoral.  There is no justification for it. 

Even in WWII, Dresden and Tokyo were about destroying ordinance factories and bombing methods were very inexact.

Today, we can target a specific house on a specific block.  So the comparisons to WWII are inapt.

You are operating from the belief that we cannot be defeated and destroyed by this enemy, so we can use a measured and limited strategy in defeating them - even though they are here on our soil killing Americans indiscriminately.  This is America's terrible and self-destructive arrogance rearing up again, and it must stop or it will be our demise. The comparisons to WW2 are very apt, we need to face this enemy as we faced the Japanese and destroy them utterly until they surrender or do not exist any longer - their choice. Yes, we will have to kill "civilians" (if there even IS such a thing with this enemy) in great quantities to achieve this. They are coming here and killing our civilians in growing numbers and we treat it as police work.  They target civilians and they will not stop until we kill their "civilians" in far, far greater numbers - where they can no longer stand to keep it up. Trump is right, and you are dead wrong...and hopefully that word dead won't be emphasized, because you and I are at risk.

[truth_seeker]

A six year old is not a combatant.

His death is on the shoulders of his terrorist waging and supporting elders, countrymen, co-religionists.

They attacked us, and we are defending ourselves. Remember 9/11/2001, Ft. Hood, London, Barcelona, Boston, San Bernardino?

[Scottftlc]

A six year old is not a combatant.

Then his parents shouldn't put him in the line of fire. His death is on their heads. If they want their son or daughter to live, they can stop killing Americans and their children will live. Leave us in peace and your people will be left in peace. Kill our people and yours will die in greater and greater numbers. That is the terrible calculation of war.  Your sensibilities will not change that reality.

[Bigun]

Targeting innocent civilians is immoral.  There is no justification for it. 

Even in WWII, Dresden and Tokyo were about destroying ordinance factories and bombing methods were very inexact.

Today, we can target a specific house on a specific block.  So the comparisons to WWII are inapt.

In the case of Islam there is no such thing as an "innocent civilian"!

[EdinVA]

A six year old is not a combatant.

You mean like these 6 year olds?

[aligncare]

You are operating from the belief that we cannot be defeated and destroyed by this enemy, so we can use a measured and limited strategy in defeating them - even though they are here on our soil killing Americans indiscriminately.  This is America's terrible and self-destructive arrogance rearing up again, and it must stop or it will be our demise. The comparisons to WW2 are very apt, we need to face this enemy as we faced the Japanese and destroy them utterly until they surrender or do not exist any longer - their choice. Yes, we will have to kill "civilians" (if there even IS such a thing with this enemy) in great quantities to achieve this. They are coming here and killing our civilians in growing numbers and we treat it as police work.  They target civilians and they will not stop until we kill their "civilians" in far, far greater numbers - where they can no longer stand to keep it up. Trump is right, and you are dead wrong...and hopefully that word dead won't be emphasized, because you and I are at risk.

This struggle has the potential to be like the IRA bombings in England–on steroids. Islam carries grudges through the millennia, passed down through generations of terrorism.

Unless a leader steps forward and makes the tough decisions, we will be leaving an ugly and dangerous world to our children.

[sinkspur]

His death is on the shoulders of his terrorist waging and supporting elders, countrymen, co-religionists.

They attacked us, and we are defending ourselves. Remember 9/11/2001, Ft. Hood, London, Barcelona, Boston, San Bernardino?

Absolutely not. If you target a six year old as a "defense measure" you're committing an immoral act.  And thankfully we don't do that.

[sinkspur]

Then his parents shouldn't put him in the line of fire. His death is on their heads. If they want their son or daughter to live, they can stop killing Americans and their children will live. Leave us in peace and your people will be left in peace. Kill our people and yours will die in greater and greater numbers. That is the terrible calculation of war.  Your sensibilities will not change that reality.

It's a good thing that the sensibilities of the vast majority of the American public don't coincide with yours.

[sinkspur]

This struggle has the potential to be like the IRA bombings in England–on steroids. Islam carries grudges through the millennia, passed down through generations of terrorism.

Unless a leader steps forward and makes the tough decisions, we will be leaving an ugly and dangerous world to our children.

If it's passed down through generations, killing their children indiscriminately will not stop their terrorism.  It will make it worse.

[aligncare]

Yeah, that will really make them mad...like Guantánamo Bay is a terrorist recruiting tool.

The war is on. Sorry your invitation got lost in the mail.

Face the hate head on. They want to kill your children.

[Free Vulcan]

If it's passed down through generations, killing their children indiscriminately will not stop their terrorism.  It will make it worse.

You are applying your values and current American values to define other cultures with the implication that we are bigoted or at least warmongers  if we don't do so. It's far more bigoted to think that these cultures think like we do, and will respond to our application of our values upon them.

[sinkspur]

You are applying your values and current American values to define other cultures with the implication that we are bigoted or at least warmongers  if we don't do so. It's far more bigoted to think that these cultures think like we do, and will respond to our application of our values upon them.

No. Our values are OUR values. If we adopt their values, then we're just like them.

No thanks.

[Scottftlc]

It's a good thing that the sensibilities of the vast majority of the American public don't coincide with yours.

If you are correct that the vast majority of Americans share your sensibilities (I think that may be changing by the hour), then America is indeed the walking dead. Those were the sensibilities of the British in 1939. Those sensibilities result in calves being led to the slaughter, and ISIS is then right: America is burning.

[Scottftlc]

No. Our values are OUR values. If we adopt their values, then we're just like them.

No thanks.

We don't adopt their values, we defend ourselves with a vigor surpassing that which they prosecute their war against us. We did not adopt Japanese values when we dropped atomic bombs on two of their major cities. We forced our values upon them. Likewise with this enemy, they must pay a far, far greater price in death and destruction than they can visit upon us, until their very will to continue ends. And if it doesn't end, we keep killing them until there are none left...just like we would have kept hitting Japanese cities until they surrendered. That is the very nature of war, and your liberal sensibilities will not change that.

[Free Vulcan]

No. Our values are OUR values. If we adopt their values, then we're just like them.

No thanks.

That's a great sermon to preach in the church of your choice. It isn't reality, history or policy relevant.

[truth_seeker]

Absolutely not. If you target a six year old as a "defense measure" you're committing an immoral act.  And thankfully we don't do that.

As a tactic their soldiers hide among their six year olds. It is not immoral to attack their soldiers, wherever they are.

[aligncare]

I don't think sinkspur has liberal sensibilities. I think he's got I hate Trump so much I can't see straight sensibility.

[truth_seeker]

No. Our values are OUR values. If we adopt their values, then we're just like them.

No thanks.

So when Truman evaluated the alternatives, deciding to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in order to minimize loss of life on BOTH sides, you oppose that decision?

[libertybele]

I don't think sinkspur has liberal sensibilities. I think he's got I hate Trump so much I can't see straight sensibility.

 

[Scottftlc]

I don't think sinkspur has liberal sensibilities. I think he's got I hate Trump so much I can't see straight sensibility.

I said that just to drive the burr in his saddle...I know sink is not a liberal and I respect him. But he does sound like Hillary here.