Zelensky's five moves that set off Trump

[catfish1957]

So Putin and the Russians have nothing to do with that at all?

I've said many times that I'd like to see Putin hanging from a tree.  But right now this is a WW 1 like stalemate in the working.  It's time to stop it.  Cease Fire.    And how better to stop it than  partner with the U.S. in a mining agreement/consortiums, that basically will act a deterrent to Putin while our interest are there. Putin will not dare attack Ukrane with a large contingent of mines with an American nameplate on them.

OTOH, I am interested in hearing your plan.....   fire away.

[Widget Jr]

What led up to the Trump-Zelensky blow up counts as to how it came about.

Before, during and after those "Five Moves", Trump was sending mixed messages:
Talking about negotiation with Russia, while excluding Ukraine.
Alternating praise and condemnation for Zelensky.
Trump has said not one word criticizing Putin.
Calling Zelensky a dictator, when under Ukraine law, Zelensky can't hold elections and the Ukrainian parliament backs him anyway.
Last Tuesday, Feb 25, Stephen Feinberg, Trump's nominee for Deputy Secretary of Defense, during his hearing,

would not say directly Russia started the war.

Then there is the deal itself.
The mineral resources Trump wants access are in land occupied by Russia. They do not want to give up what they fought three years to take.
This part is getting ignored by all the pro-Russian and anti-Zelensky types:Putin and the Russian people do not like the deal either.

Ukraine wants a clearcut security guarantee they are not getting.US financial involvement is not the same as a security arrangement to them.

Trump is trying to arrange an economic business deal, when no one in Europe expects Russia to honor any such deal. Neither Russia nor Ukraine get what they want while Trump and the cheerleading conservative press put all the blame on Zelensky.

( Please remind me, who invaded who first here? Since when is wanting to join NATO to get protection from getting politically dominated or invaded by Russia, justification for Russia to invade anyone? )

In all the ways Putin is stupid, political gamesmanship is not among them. This was a bad deal all around, and Trump and his supporters will put the blame on Zelensky for it. Putin does not have to call out the deal, he's not getting any of the blame for it. All he has to do is sit back, say nothing, and laugh.

 Meanwhile, Russia is still getting weapons from Iran, soldiers from North Korea, using donkeys and horses on the front lines because they are running out of trucks, and their economy is on a countdown to either failure or giving up the war.

[Timber Rattler]

What led up to the Trump-Zelensky blow up counts as to how it came about.

Before, during and after those "Five Moves", Trump was sending mixed messages:
Talking about negotiation with Russia, while excluding Ukraine.
Alternating praise and condemnation for Zelensky.
Trump has said not one word criticizing Putin.
Calling Zelensky a dictator, when under Ukraine law, Zelensky can't hold elections and the Ukrainian parliament backs him anyway.
Last Tuesday, Feb 25, Stephen Feinberg, Trump's nominee for Deputy Secretary of Defense, during his hearing,

would not say directly Russia started the war.

Then there is the deal itself.
The mineral resources Trump wants access are in land occupied by Russia. They do not want to give up what they fought three years to take.
This part is getting ignored by all the pro-Russian and anti-Zelensky types:Putin and the Russian people do not like the deal either.

Ukraine wants a clearcut security guarantee they are not getting.US financial involvement is not the same as a security arrangement to them.

Trump is trying to arrange an economic business deal, when no one in Europe expects Russia to honor any such deal. Neither Russia nor Ukraine get what they want while Trump and the cheerleading conservative press put all the blame on Zelensky.

( Please remind me, who invaded who first here? Since when is wanting to join NATO to get protection from getting politically dominated or invaded by Russia, justification for Russia to invade anyone? )

In all the ways Putin is stupid, political gamesmanship is not among them. This was a bad deal all around, and Trump and his supporters will put the blame on Zelensky for it. Putin does not have to call out the deal, he's not getting any of the blame for it. All he has to do is sit back, say nothing, and laugh.

 Meanwhile, Russia is still getting weapons from Iran, soldiers from North Korea, using donkeys and horses on the front lines because they are running out of trucks, and their economy is on a countdown to either failure or giving up the war.

    

[MeganC]

What led up to the Trump-Zelensky blow up counts as to how it came about.

Before, during and after those "Five Moves", Trump was sending mixed messages:
Talking about negotiation with Russia, while excluding Ukraine.
Alternating praise and condemnation for Zelensky.
Trump has said not one word criticizing Putin.
Calling Zelensky a dictator, when under Ukraine law, Zelensky can't hold elections and the Ukrainian parliament backs him anyway.
Last Tuesday, Feb 25, Stephen Feinberg, Trump's nominee for Deputy Secretary of Defense, during his hearing,

would not say directly Russia started the war.

Then there is the deal itself.
The mineral resources Trump wants access are in land occupied by Russia. They do not want to give up what they fought three years to take.
This part is getting ignored by all the pro-Russian and anti-Zelensky types:Putin and the Russian people do not like the deal either.

Ukraine wants a clearcut security guarantee they are not getting.US financial involvement is not the same as a security arrangement to them.

Trump is trying to arrange an economic business deal, when no one in Europe expects Russia to honor any such deal. Neither Russia nor Ukraine get what they want while Trump and the cheerleading conservative press put all the blame on Zelensky.

( Please remind me, who invaded who first here? Since when is wanting to join NATO to get protection from getting politically dominated or invaded by Russia, justification for Russia to invade anyone? )

In all the ways Putin is stupid, political gamesmanship is not among them. This was a bad deal all around, and Trump and his supporters will put the blame on Zelensky for it. Putin does not have to call out the deal, he's not getting any of the blame for it. All he has to do is sit back, say nothing, and laugh.

 Meanwhile, Russia is still getting weapons from Iran, soldiers from North Korea, using donkeys and horses on the front lines because they are running out of trucks, and their economy is on a countdown to either failure or giving up the war.

Well said. Thank you! 

[Widget Jr]

Well said. Thank you! 

I call 'em like I see 'em.

[mountaineer]

Bonchie
@bonchieredstate
The reality in Ukraine (that gets you shouted down for admitting) remains that there is no path to total defeat of Russia.
You can send Ukraine another $500 billion and it won't change that because you can't buy manpower. The Liz Cheneys of the world will never have an honest discussion about that reality because they can't.
That means there will be *some* kind of negotiated peace at some point. This year, next year, or ten years from now. Argue about what that looks like and what should or shouldn't be on the table, but scoffing at any negotiations is ludicrous.
7:16 PM · Feb 28, 2025

Bonchie
@bonchieredstate
I'd love for the negotiated peace to return all of Ukraine's land. How you make that happen isn't apparent to me at this point, but if it can be done, absolutely do it.
But the idea that Ukraine, which is already facing a manpower crisis given its population size, is going to suddenly be able to retake Crimea and all of the Eastern regions just doesn't add up. No one can explain how that happens and they don't even try.
7:19 PM · Feb 28, 2025

I agree with the bolded comment, and saying so does not make me a Russian stooge. It's realism.

[Timber Rattler]

  It's time to stop it.  Cease Fire. 

So how do you plan on making Putin and the Russians enter into and respect a ceasefire?  They have respected nothing else.

OTOH, I am interested in hearing your plan.....   fire away.

My plan is to give the Ukrainians whatever military, special operations, and intelligence assistance they need to defeat the Russians totally, once and for all, instead of Joe Biden's pell-mell "frozen front" non-escalation stupidity.  Drop the Kerch Bridge for starters, and then hit even more Russian oil and ammunition stockpiles deep inside Russia.  Make the Russians feel even more pain!

[Timber Rattler]

I agree with the bolded comment, and saying so does not make me a Russian stooge. It's realism.

I just loooove how Conservatives are now suddenly enthralled by the Machiavellian concept of "realism," as practiced by Talleyrand, Metternich, Bismarck, and Kissinger.  It's a really convenient excuse to look the other way and do nothing about obvious evil and aggression in the world, and even betray friendly countries.  Imagine if Churchill and FDR had taken that position in 1940 and 1941 in light of the Axis steamroller?  Where would we be now?

[DominusVobiscum]

Trump would blame Poland for starting the war and would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

[Timber Rattler]

Trump would blame Poland for starting the war and would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

Yep, he sure would.  And he would have no qualms about being business partners with either Hitler or Stalin.

[DB]

You are just pissed that I have been right all along about Zellgrifter, and he finally is being totally outed as the POS bait and switch artist that he really is.   I also hope you realize his little stunt today likely is going to cause many many more thousands of Uke deaths. Ukes that I have a lot of respect and admiration for their courage.

Their blood is squarely on his hands.

You said Zelenskyy was a grifter, thief and getting rich on the war. Nothing to date has proven any of that true. So you haven't been proven right.

You say Zelenskyy is the cause of all the Ukrainian deaths. Just because they have successfully resisted a Russian blitzkrieg you say Ukraine is at fault for it all for not surrendering. That's just sick. You and others said Ukraine wouldn't last 2 weeks after being invaded and it was a lost cause. You were dead wrong.

So now we're seeing the Tucker Carlson view of foreign policy play out. The world is rapidly fracturing and it will have serious consequences for all of us.

[catfish1957]

So how do you plan on making Putin and the Russians enter into and respect a ceasefire?  They have respected nothing else.

My plan is to give the Ukrainians whatever military, special operations, and intelligence assistance they need to defeat the Russians totally, once and for all, instead of Joe Biden's pell-mell "frozen front" non-escalation stupidity.  Drop the Kerch Bridge for starters, and then hit even more Russian oil and ammunition stockpiles deep inside Russia.  Make the Russians feel even more pain!

Sounds like your plan is aligned with most of the Senate RINO's during the Biden admin.  Nice job.  /s

And escalation towards a possible WW3 outcome?  Why don't you just get with @MeganC and figure out a way to get Ukes a nuke. 

OTOH, how about we do everything in our power to drive down oil prices to say the $40-50/bbl level and starve Putin out?  Sounds like a better plan to me.

[catfish1957]

You said Zelenskyy was a grifter, thief and getting rich on the war. Nothing to date has proven any of that true. So you haven't been proven right.

You say Zelenskyy is the cause of all the Ukrainian deaths. Just because they have successfully resisted a Russian blitzkrieg you say Ukraine is at fault for it all for not surrendering. That's just sick. You and others said Ukraine wouldn't last 2 weeks after being invaded and it was a lost cause. You were dead wrong.

So now we're seeing the Tucker Carlson view of foreign policy play out. The world is rapidly fracturing and it will have serious consequences for all of us.

1. Z campaigned for Kamala
2. Z pulled a bait and switch on the rare earth deal on Rubio yesterday in a concerted effort to embarrass the administration.
3. Z's biggest allies in the past 4 years have been Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer.
4. Z has gone on record that he will not negotiate for a settlement.  Just what is his end game?>  100,000 more Uke deaths?
5. Z proof as a Grifter?  I'd bet he is as good at hiding cash as the Biden Crime family.  Let's see what the DOGE boys can find with a little more forensics analysis and research
6. You are lying that I said Z was the cause of all Uke death.  If you are going to obfuscate, at least be factual.
7. Z botched this deal, which would allow US metals consortiums to come in and mine the country.  That is about as good a security blanket as there is.  Putin wouldn't dare to attack, with so much US personnel and assets. Z is too stupid to realize that.
8. Sick of this Russian boogey man theme, you and your toadies are perpetuating.  Russia is the 11th largest country in GDP and is dropping like a rock.  Their demographics are dictating that this decline will only accelerate that demise.  Check the currency markets lately?  The Rouble is worth about one US cent.  An all time low.  Putin is one oil price crash from collapse.  Why not we just let that happen?
9. And last is what exastly is Z's end game?  Are you going to tell me escalation like your buddy here  just did?  Is that worth risking World War III?    Which btw is what was the exact position several RINO's took during the Biden admin.

I have said dozens of times on this forum that Putin is a despicable dictator, and needs to hang from a tree.  I also applaud and root for the brave Ukranian soldiers who are risking alll.  But they have a POS leader, who as of yesterday was playing footsy with a strong and narcissistic POTUS, and gave the ultimate FAFO performance.  And that perfomance will likely and sadly result in countless more additional dead UKE and Russian soldiers.

[DB]

1. Z campaigned for Kamala
2. Z pulled a bait and switch on the rare earth deal on Rubio yesterday in a concerted effort to embarrass the administration.
3. Z's biggest allies in the past 4 years have been Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer.
4. Z has gone on record that he will not negotiate for a settlement.  Just what is his end game?>  100,000 more Uke deaths?
5. Z proof as a Grifter?  I'd bet he is as good at hiding cash as the Biden Crime family.  Let's see what the DOGE boys can find with a little more forensics analysis and research
6. You are lying that I said Z was the cause of all Uke death.  If you are going to obfuscate, at least be factual.
7. Z botched this deal, which would allow US metals consortiums to come in and mine the country.  That is about as good a security blanket as there is.  Putin wouldn't dare to attack, with so much US personnel and assets. Z is too stupid to realize that.
8. Sick of this Russian boogey man theme, you and your toadies are perpetuating.  Russia is the 11th largest country in GDP and is dropping like a rock.  Their demographics are dictating that this decline will only accelerate that demise.  Check the currency markets lately?  The Rouble is worth about one US cent.  An all time low.  Putin is one oil price crash from collapse.  Why not we just let that happen?
9. And last is what exastly is Z's end game?  Are you going to tell me escalation like your buddy here  just did?  Is that worth risking World War III?    Which btw is what was the exact position several RINO's took during the Biden admin.

I have said dozens of times on this forum that Putin is a despicable dictator, and needs to hang from a tree.  I also applaud and root for the brave Ukranian soldiers who are risking alll.  But they have a POS leader, who as of yesterday was playing footsy with a strong and narcissistic POTUS, and gave the ultimate FAFO performance.  And that perfomance will likely and sadly result in countless more additional dead UKE and Russian soldiers.

Trump was campaigning that he'd end the war in a day essentially surrendering Ukraine to Russia - so what the hell do you think the Ukrainian leader would do?

You say bait and switch, so where exactly did Zelenskyy say he was reneging on the agreement?

Trump says it doesn't help diplomacy to call Putin names - yet Trump had no problem calling Zelenskyy names. And then shortly afterwards claiming he didn't remember doing that. No hypocrisy there...

Zelenskyy has gone on record that he won't surrender parts of Ukraine for peace. Well duh... Ukraine already had an agreement with Russia for peace that Russia blatantly violated repeatedly.

This is your quote is it not: "Their blood is squarely on his hands."

[mountaineer]

I just loooove how Conservatives are now suddenly enthralled by the Machiavellian concept of "realism," as practiced by Talleyrand, Metternich, Bismarck, and Kissinger.  It's a really convenient excuse to look the other way and do nothing about obvious evil and aggression in the world, and even betray friendly countries.  Imagine if Churchill and FDR had taken that position in 1940 and 1941 in light of the Axis steamroller?  Where would we be now?

No, I've always been a realist. There are no good guys in this conflict.

[Bigun]

No, I've always been a realist. There are no good guys in this conflict.

 

[catfish1957]

Trump was campaigning that he'd end the war in a day essentially surrendering Ukraine to Russia - so what the hell do you think the Ukrainian leader would do?

Well...  I'll spare the meme, but....  he chose poorly.  And anyway, just where did Trump say, or much less allude that the Ukes were going to surrender.  Unless the rules of diplomacy have changed, brokered treaties don't constitute a "surrender"

You say bait and switch, so where exactly did Zelenskyy say he was reneging on the agreement?

It was my understanding that the deal constituted a infrastructure commitment to help rebuild Ukraine.  Z either by sly or by misunderstanding misconstrued this to be a "security commitment", which even set off the normally calm and reserved Marco Rubio into rage.  This bait and switch became evident during the heated exchange, and then we saw what we saw.  Trump admittedly is a narcissist, and one rule of dealing with narcissist, is you don't publicly embarass them under any circumstance.  Z FAFO'ed

Trump says it doesn't help diplomacy to call Putin names - yet Trump had no problem calling Zelenskyy names. And then shortly afterwards claiming he didn't remember doing that. No hypocrisy there...

Well as I said above, Trump is going to be Trump.  With all the warts, he does want to put America First, and yesterday was an excellent example of that.  The days of Zellinski smoozing and steamrolling US politicans is over.

Zelenskyy has gone on record that he won't surrender parts of Ukraine for peace. Well duh... Ukraine already had an agreement with Russia for peace that Russia blatantly violated repeatedly.

Fair comment, except this time you have a POTUS who has some leverage.  Pedo Joe was an eunuch on the world stage.  Trump has the ability domestically and internationally to influence oil production in a manner that could potentially drive oil prices down to $40-$50 bbl.  If this happens do you realize that there is a decent chance that the Russian soldiers will not have the ability to get back home?  Putin and Russia will collapse.  Angry Ukes will massacre the remaining Russian troops in the streets that can't flee.    That's the big difference this time.  We have a POTUS who has a backbone, and is not afraid to pull the right levers to further World interest for the better.

This is your quote is it not: "Their blood is squarely on his hands."

Yes, and I stand by that.  Within reach is cessation of hostilities on both sides.  Z playing cute, just prolonged the war further.  And again.....  just what is Z's end game?  Victory?  Or a World War 1 fight for inches on the battle field.   The only thing I heard on your side is escalation, including US boots on the ground.    Will you go on record to say that is a good idea?

pssssst....  P.S.   We are $37T in debt.

[libertybele]

Z blew his chance for peace and help from the U.S. and in doing so has now put the Ukraine and it's people in a no-win situation. Period.

Z needs to be ousted for what he did.  He broke his word. He has no integrity and no respect for U.S. diplomacy. 

[libertybele]

Trump was campaigning that he'd end the war in a day essentially surrendering Ukraine to Russia - so what the hell do you think the Ukrainian leader would do?

You say bait and switch, so where exactly did Zelenskyy say he was reneging on the agreement?

Trump says it doesn't help diplomacy to call Putin names - yet Trump had no problem calling Zelenskyy names. And then shortly afterwards claiming he didn't remember doing that. No hypocrisy there...

Zelenskyy has gone on record that he won't surrender parts of Ukraine for peace. Well duh... Ukraine already had an agreement with Russia for peace that Russia blatantly violated repeatedly.

This is your quote is it not: "Their blood is squarely on his hands."

One thing you missed @DB this isn't our war.  The U.S. has given him billions and in return he comes back and spits in our face.  I agree, "Ukraine blood is now squarely on his hands".

[Right_in_Virginia]

Trump .. would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

Like FDR and Stalin?

[DCPatriot]

Trump would blame Poland for starting the war and would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

Et cum spíritu tuo...you fool!

How much did the United States get back from "Lend Lease" while the Nazis and Fascists march across the Continents of Europe and North Africa?

Warfare technology is completely different today.  Aliens with their Foo Fighters saw that there was too wide a gap between a Mig and the Atomic Bomb...and here we are!!

[catfish1957]

Trump would blame Poland for starting the war and would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

Okay, what is your plan to stop hostilities..  Enlighten us..

[MeganC]

Trump would blame Poland for starting the war and would want to make a deal with Hitler to "stop the killing"

Peace at any price always comes at too high of a price. Always.

[catfish1957]

Peace at any price always comes at too high of a price. Always.

See my last comment?  Enlighten us on what you would do, except this time leave the idea of giving the Ukes a nuke off the table.   

[MeganC]

See my last comment?  Enlighten us on what you would do, except this time leave the idea of giving the Ukes a nuke off the table.   

Ukraine can build their own nukes and obviously they need them.