BREAKING...There has been a school shooting at Apalachee High School

[roamer_1]

We can agree to disagree then, but I'll bet a lot of people agree with me, and you'll see more parents of these shooters start to get charged.

And in that, everyone disarmed by the risk of being sued out of everything you have.
Congratulations.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

The argument surrounds the idea that the parent should have automagically known, seen it coming, and therefore it is their fault. EVERY teen age kid keeps things from their parents. All of them..

No sympathy for that argument whatsoever. If your child makes clear threats, you should err on the side of caution, period. If he grabs your guns and uses them in a crime, enjoy your jailtime. I won't mourn.

[roamer_1]

No sympathy for that argument whatsoever. If your child makes clear threats, you should err on the side of caution, period. If he grabs your guns and uses them in a crime, enjoy your jailtime. I won't mourn.

Now you have a decider.
Someone decides you knew the threat, whether you did or not.
Someone decides the level of precaution and whether you met it or not.

In this liberal setting, of course, you should have known. And of course it's your fault.
and the standard is gun safes, trigger locks, and ammunition stored separately (another safe).
And very likely, an extremely high liability insurance.
It's what they've been hawking for years,

Rendering all guns useless and unaffordable... An idiotic standard that is far beyond reasonable use in the country.

I don't have the money for gun safes (not to mention they are a stupid damn thing).
I don't have the money for, or the inclination toward trigger locks (which are another stupid damn thing).
I don't have the money for crazy expensive insurances.

So I guess I shouldn't own any guns.

Funny, I don't remember all that shit in the Constitution.

[roamer_1]

If my kid takes my hammer and beats someone to death with it, it's my fault. 

[the OlLine Rebel]

No sympathy for that argument whatsoever. If your child makes clear threats, you should err on the side of caution, period. If he grabs your guns and uses them in a crime, enjoy your jailtime. I won't mourn.

I think it is unfair.  This is visiting the sins of the son upon the father, etc.

You can use the same logic with just about anything that some family member does.

Lately this is scaring me that this is becoming the thing to do.

Some parents bear scrutiny but they should not automatically be charged.  If there seems to be actual CONSPIRACY, yes, by all means.  Gross recklessness or negligence.  Hell we had a kid killed recently in north Baltimore at a school and HIS PARENTS DROVE HIM TO SCHOOL SPECIFICALLY GOADING HIM TO TAKE CARE OF THIS OTHER BOY!  Now that is blatant!

But simply having guns and not being able to keep him from using them?  That’s beyond the pale.

Sure, take a look at the parents and see if they have intention.  Otherwise, leave it alone.  Absurd.  Then throw parents in jail when their kid drives drunk with their car and kills someone.

[roamer_1]

I think it is unfair.  This is visiting the sins of the son upon the father, etc.

You can use the same logic with just about anything that some family member does.

Lately this is scaring me that this is becoming the thing to do.

Some parents bear scrutiny but they should not automatically be charged.  If there seems to be actual CONSPIRACY, yes, by all means.  Gross recklessness or negligence.  Hell we had a kid killed recently in north Baltimore at a school and HIS PARENTS DROVE HIM TO SCHOOL SPECIFICALLY GOADING HIM TO TAKE CARE OF THIS OTHER BOY!  Now that is blatant!

But simply having guns and not being able to keep him from using them?  That’s beyond the pale.

Sure, take a look at the parents and see if they have intention.  Otherwise, leave it alone.  Absurd.  Then throw parents in jail when their kid drives drunk with their car and kills someone.

That's right. Right on the money.

If the father sent the boy off with his blessing, Then fine. He is then made liable.

But if the son used the father's things in a way that the father did not endorse (and no doubt abhorred in any normal hoomin) - Without his blessing - Then it is nothing more than a form of theft, and it doesn't matter how many locks you put on it.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

But simply having guns and not being able to keep him from using them?  That’s beyond the pale.

Not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a child or acquaintance that is openly making threats of doing shit like this, which has happened. Tell the police, and if you have weapons, make sure they're secured against this individual. If they're openly making threats and you leave them lying around and they are used in a murder, that's manslaughter IMO.

[Smokin Joe]

No, that is not the argument.
The argument surrounds the idea that the parent should have automagically known, seen it coming, and therefore it is their fault. EVERY teen age kid keeps things from their parents. All of them.

And AND, with that, the specious notion that guns must naturally be locked up... But not knives and hatchets, and hammers, and letter openers... Not to mention cars and tractors.

In rural life, guns are tools. Just like any tool. They are not accorded special circumstance. They just ARE. Where they belong. READY.

That cannot change, short of selling off your stock, and removing yourself from the countryside.
If you have stock, and you live in the mountains,
You have guns, that are ready, and you USE them.

This speaks to the disconnect between modern living and real life.

Yes. Who knows haw many opportunities to put meat on the table have been denied young people (because girls hunt, too!) because no guns are with them and ready to go hunting. Now they have to go home, gear up, and make it into the field before dark, which comes early at this latitude in the fall and winter.

Back before 'gun free school zones', kids could just get in the pickup and go, usually having worn their hunting garb to school (before camouflage clothes was somehow seen as radical, far right, and dangerous).

[verga]

Well, since I've have kids and grandkids I'll voice my opinion on this. Nope. I declare b.s.  You are in the wrong @jmyrlefuller. You teach children to RESPECT a weapon, others and other's property.  I raised two kids who were both around guns and multiple grandkids around guns.  No guns were not in their face and when they were toddling, they were indeed locked up as I have found for some reason toddlers are incredibly quick crawling or walking once they have their mind set on what they want and they'll out pace you every time.

Rebellious teens?  Well, I'd say it depends on how they are raised.  As youngsters I warned them before we as a family left the house or before they left the house not to step out of line as their would be consequences.  I think the tried us once or twice, but most of the time we got compliments on their behavior.

Late middle school and high school years, they knew they had to be home by 10:00 on a school night and by 12 on the weekends.  We often warned them; get caught by the police we will NOT bail you out. They were reminded of that often and knew we wouldn't.

College years --- oh good grief -- they were free to venture on their own. I used to pray for my son for hours.  Yeppers I was one of the parents that if I didn't hear from my son, I threatened either his aunt and uncle would deal with him (you just didn't mess with them) or I would call his school.  The school hunted him down a couple of times for me.  My daughter was born with a certain 'spark' and always marched to the beat of her own drum and pushed the envelope at times -- but she realized she ultimately had to deal with the consequences.

They were around guns their whole lives, but most importantly -- both children grew up with a very strong religious background.  They know ultimately who they have to answer to and they know there's no negotiating.

I've known kids that have come from very rough upbringings and taunted at school but had some common sense when it came to weapons and getting into trouble -- staying out of trouble was in their best interest.

[verga]

No, that is not the argument.
The argument surrounds the idea that the parent should have automagically known, seen it coming, and therefore it is their fault. EVERY teen age kid keeps things from their parents. All of them.

And AND, with that, the specious notion that guns must naturally be locked up... But not knives and hatchets, and hammers, and letter openers... Not to mention cars and tractors.

In rural life, guns are tools. Just like any tool. They are not accorded special circumstance. They just ARE. Where they belong. READY.

That cannot change, short of selling off your stock, and removing yourself from the countryside.
If you have stock, and you live in the mountains,
You have guns, that are ready, and you USE them.

This speaks to the disconnect between modern living and real life.

Not a question of "Automatically" The cops visited him after making previous threats. That was enough of a warning.

[verga]

If my kid takes my hammer and beats someone to death with it, it's my fault. 

I he made previous threats to do so and you left the hammer where he could get it, absolutely

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I he made previous threats to do so and you left the hammer where he could get it, absolutely

I don't play the hypothetical game and for this reason, because it can get ridiculous. I wasn't talking hammers. When hammers are commonly used to kill multiples of people, then we'll talk about hammers.

[verga]

I don't play the hypothetical game and for this reason, because it can get ridiculous. I wasn't talking hammers. When hammers are commonly used to kill multiples of people, then we'll talk about hammers.

I replied to Roamer 1. He brought up the hypothetical.

[roamer_1]

Not a question of "Automatically" The cops visited him after making previous threats. That was enough of a warning.

Really. Do you know how many times the cops dragged me home and knocked on my daddy's door? Not threats. Actual violence. I'd been in the can overnight, and probably over a weekend several times before I graduated high school... I knew most of the cops by name, and most of the judges.

I can't even begin to imagine how many times I made threats, and in fact, carried them out.

I suppose in some peoples' worlds, that's enough to restrict me from guns and send me to a shrink. Something like that conversation occurred in my house. Yes, a social worker and a cop sat down with my parents. Twice. School counselors numerous times over the phone. One episode, the court let me off providing that I went to a shrink...

The whole thing is bullshit.

I could name you dozens of people I know first hand that came up exactly the same way. Dozens. Every boy worth his salt that got rowdy on the weekends did the same thing. I know, because they were the ones fighting with me.

I would imagine all of them would tell a similar story.

A visit from the cops is hardly a canary in the coalmine. I was rowdy. Maybe really rowdy... But that's all I ever was. And through it all I was shooting guns and killing critters, all the way along.

[roamer_1]

I he made previous threats to do so and you left the hammer where he could get it, absolutely

That's ridiculous. Absolutely.

[roamer_1]

I don't play the hypothetical game and for this reason, because it can get ridiculous. I wasn't talking hammers. When hammers are commonly used to kill multiples of people, then we'll talk about hammers.

Bludgeoning is by no means uncommon. As with stabbings. I would imagine guns pale by comparison.

And no one is talking about the other side of the scale - The millions of times that guns (and thumping, and sticking) are used in defense - The only outcome to this game that will find its end would leave all those people defenseless.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Bludgeoning is by no means uncommon. As with stabbings. I would imagine guns pale by comparison.

And no one is talking about the other side of the scale - The millions of times that guns (and thumping, and sticking) are used in defense - The only outcome to this game that will find its end would leave all those people defenseless.

These school shootings are tiresome. Never heard of a "school hammering" have you? As for leaving people defenseless, a lot of these kids will end up using these guns on their parents, maybe it's for their own good that they are obliged to store them safely?

Anyway I thought you lived in Montana where nothing ever happens anyway? What are you so scared of?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Really. Do you know how many times the cops dragged me home and knocked on my daddy's door? Not threats. Actual violence. I'd been in the can overnight, and probably over a weekend several times before I graduated high school... I knew most of the cops by name, and most of the judges.

I can't even begin to imagine how many times I made threats, and in fact, carried them out.

I suppose in some peoples' worlds, that's enough to restrict me from guns and send me to a shrink. Something like that conversation occurred in my house. Yes, a social worker and a cop sat down with my parents. Twice. School counselors numerous times over the phone. One episode, the court let me off providing that I went to a shrink...

The whole thing is bullshit.

I could name you dozens of people I know first hand that came up exactly the same way. Dozens. Every boy worth his salt that got rowdy on the weekends did the same thing. I know, because they were the ones fighting with me.

I would imagine all of them would tell a similar story.

A visit from the cops is hardly a canary in the coalmine. I was rowdy. Maybe really rowdy... But that's all I ever was. And through it all I was shooting guns and killing critters, all the way along.

How is this a rebuttal to what he said? Did you make specific threats of school shootings? Glad it turned out well in this case, but oftentimes it doesn't.

[roamer_1]

These school shootings are tiresome. Never heard of a "school hammering" have you? As for leaving people defenseless, a lot of these kids will end up using these guns on their parents, maybe it's for their own good that they are obliged to store them safely?

Anyway I thought you lived in Montana where nothing ever happens anyway? What are you so scared of?

I'm scared of folks like you, willing to let the Democrat camel's nose into the tent. This only ends one way.

Franklin... Safety, security... You know the thing.

[roamer_1]

How is this a rebuttal to what he said? Did you make specific threats of school shootings? Glad it turned out well in this case, but oftentimes it doesn't.

No, often times it DOES turn out well. That is my point. Of all the rowdy folks I know (and I know many, many who have had dealings with the law), four committed murder.

As to specific threats, no doubt I threatened to blow my high school off the map. Probably more than once. And while the threat was idle - well maybe not idle, though I would never do such a thing with any threat to any life) - While the threat was idle, I knew how.

I was popping rocks with kinepack, working with dynamite under a powder monkey,  and blowing stumps with fertilizer and diesel long before I left school. That is not uncommon skill.

Is that threat enough?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

No, often times it DOES turn out well. That is my point. Of all the rowdy folks I know (and I know many, many who have had dealings with the law), four committed murder.

As to specific threats, no doubt I threatened to blow my high school off the map. Probably more than once. And while the threat was idle - well maybe not idle, though I would never do such a thing with any threat to any life) - While the threat was idle, I knew how.

I was popping rocks with kinepack, working with dynamite under a powder monkey,  and blowing stumps with fertilizer and diesel long before I left school. That is not uncommon skill.

Is that threat enough?

Welp, it's a risk. If you get away with it, fine. I don't care. But if you don't, if a kids uses his parent's gun which was left unsecured despite making specific threats, the parents should pay the consequences IMO. Like some people don't wear a helmet, etc. Same idea.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I'm scared of folks like you, willing to let the Democrat camel's nose into the tent. This only ends one way.

Franklin... Safety, security... You know the thing.

For one thing, you don't vote so not sure why you care about Democrats nose getting into the tent? But Democrats don't want you to have guns period. I just want people to take responsibility for them.

[roamer_1]

Welp, it's a risk. If you get away with it, fine. I don't care. But if you don't, if a kids uses his parent's gun which was left unsecured despite making specific threats, the parents should pay the consequences IMO. Like some people don't wear a helmet, etc. Same idea.

Maybe you should wear a helmet. You're the one who feels unsafe.

As for me, I am absolutely unwilling to let the bastards remove liberty from many for the sake of stopping a few. And I know with great experience how ridiculous your demand is - You might as well force the collection of butter knives across the nation.

It must be hard for you to imagine, but guns are part of the fabric of life in rural America. Here maybe more than elsewhere, I will admit that, but I can't imagine any rural home anywhere that can function without firearms. Period.

Not to mention the weight you put upon a father, who in all likelihood would not believe such a thing could come out of his son... And who would better fly to his son's defense... As I would, or my old man would. As I DID. And as my old man did.

Barring collusion or persuasion causing the act, you can't blame the family for believing their kid will work it out - That faith, in all but the rarest exceptions, being true.

[libertybele]

Maybe you should wear a helmet. You're the one who feels unsafe.

As for me, I am absolutely unwilling to let the bastards remove liberty from many for the sake of stopping a few. And I know with great experience how ridiculous your demand is - You might as well force the collection of butter knives across the nation.

It must be hard for you to imagine, but guns are part of the fabric of life in rural America. Here maybe more than elsewhere, I will admit that, but I can't imagine any rural home anywhere that can function without firearms. Period.

Not to mention the weight you put upon a father, who in all likelihood would not believe such a thing could come out of his son... And who would better fly to his son's defense... As I would, or my old man would. As I DID. And as my old man did.

Barring collusion or persuasion causing the act, you can't blame the family for believing their kid will work it out - That faith, in all but the rarest exceptions, being true.

We have rights under the 2A.  As a gun owner, you also have a responsibility of owning and handling a gun.  A gun owner should know where his gun(s) is at all times and if need be safely stowed.

IF you have a teen that has a propensity to violence, I'd say it would be irresponsible not to have any weapons stowed.

[roamer_1]

For one thing, you don't vote so not sure why you care about Democrats nose getting into the tent? But Democrats don't want you to have guns period. I just want people to take responsibility for them.

Foremost, I will happily vote for any Conservative. I will man the phone,. I will throw money. I HAVE. That is different than 'I don't vote'. What I will NOT vote for is big government from the right.

But let's examine that in the light of our present conversation. Within my lifetime, back not very far, you would find *no* Republican that would move an inch toward ANY gun control. PERIOD. For a reason.

Also you would find *no* Republican that would move an inch toward thought crimes. *NONE*.
But here you are, hawking both precognition and gun control.

Look, as a whole I respect you. I think you have a fantastic mind. And that is no faint praise.
For that reason, your position is all the more offensive:

You must know perfectly, or at least have the ability to project, what Democrats will do the minute they get precog crime - The precedent it will set.

You also must know perfectly, or at least predict, what will happen when gun rights are determined by shrinks - Every liberty loving patriot will have a goon squad with a judge's order at their door within months.

Not to mention that your will is misdirected. The problem is not in the home, or it would be a continual thing in history. The problem is in the society. In the schools and media that are filling these kids mushy brains with evil. And in the vanguard, the shrinks.

You want to let the fox run the henhouse.

And then you wonder why I will not stand with you.