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Offline mystery-ak

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Is Trump a liar?
« on: August 23, 2024, 01:43:10 pm »
August 23, 2024
Is Trump a liar?
By David Carlin

All liberals agree that Donald Trump is a liar, but there is some disagreement among them as to precisely what kind of liar he is.  Many say he is a pathological liar.  Many others disagree; they hold that he is a congenital liar.

Though I voted for Trump in 2020 and plan to vote for him in 2024, I have no wish to spend any time or energy defending Trump’s reputation as a truth-teller.  If liberals wish to call him a liar, well, that’s between him and them.  Leave me out of it.

If, however, you were to point a loaded gun at my head and to order me, while threatening to shoot me if I refuse to obey your order, to construct an argument refuting the accusation that Trump is a liar, let alone a pathological or congenital liar, here’s what I would say.

First, telling a lie is not simply a matter of making a false statement.  No, a lie is a false statement made with the intention of deceiving one’s auditor.  If a “lie” is told without the intention of deceiving, it is no lie.  If I were to tell you, for instance, that I used to own Buckingham Palace until I lost it in game of poker with Queen Elizabeth II, this would not count as a lie.  Many of Trump’s false statements are of this kind: so obviously untrue that they deceive nobody.

Second, many of Trump’s false statements are semi-true in that they are exaggerations of true statements.  Trump has a great love of superlatives.  Instead of “good,” he prefers “best.”  Instead of “bad,” he prefers “worst.”  And so on.  He exaggerates in other ways.  For instance, he claims that he did more for blacks than any president since Lincoln (forgetting FDR and LBJ), and he asserts that Joe Biden is the worst president in U.S. history (forgetting James Buchanan), and he tells us that he draws bigger crowds that Martin Luther King ever drew.  These superlatives and exaggerations are not genuine lies.  They are a poetic way of saying whatever it is that he really means to say.  Instead of saying “X is bad” (a literally true statement), Trump prefers “X is the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the human race.”

3. Trump has an unusual view of the purpose of a declarative sentence.  Most people think the purpose of a declarative sentence is to state a fact — e.g., “The cat is lying on the mat” or “I’d like to have a glass of lemonade” or “Charlemagne was crowned emperor on Christmas Day in the year 800.”  But Trump believes that declarative sentences can legitimately be used for many purposes besides stating facts.  They can be used to entertain, to insult, to excite one’s friend, to irritate one’s enemY, to raise money, to encourage friends, to depress foes, and to do a hundred other things.  And if, in doing all these other things, factual truth sometimes gets trampled in the dust, well, that just goes to show the limits of the English language, which often doesn’t allow us to perform one linguistic function without doing violence to another.

There.  I have obeyed your command, however unwillingly.  Please take the gun away from my head.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2024/08/is_trump_a_liar.html
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2024, 01:57:36 pm »
 :pop41:
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2024, 02:14:16 pm »
Sooner or later, everyone lies. We're human. Maybe it was to blame the cat for the lamp we tipped over, or merely saying "I don't know" with a chocolate covered face to try to not get in trouble for the frosting disappearing while mom was in the bathroom. Or to avoid some other more profound consequence later in life, but basically, none is without sin. Repent!  :laugh:
(Seriously, do.)

Lest we forget, Trump made his money in real estate promotion. Promoting a (premium) brand involves superlatives, sometimes to excess, but generally, those involve at least some aspect of truth. The person on the other end of that expects some hyperbole; such is modern sales, whether I agree with that or not. The onus of doing due diligence, as always, resides with the buyer.

Caveat emptor has been the case at least since the Romans dominated the Mediterranean.

With that in mind, if we are to excuse hypebrole and even some minor subsequent underperformance, can we hold the Democrats to task for their promises, or, for that matter, anyone in politics? Is that really deceptive (or to turn that question around, are we so naive to expect that promises made from the stump are going to be worth the paper they weren't even written on?) Ideally, we would re-elect the ones who fulfill their promises, and primary out the ones who do not, but such would involve an attentive and engaged electorate, without compromising conflicts of interest. We don't have that.

Where it becomes less murky, however, is when one bears False Witness against others.
Enshrined in the list of 'Thou Shalt Nots' as one of the big ten offenses against God, Himself, carved in stone, even, that is not so excusable as a little hype. (At least in the judeo-Christian ethos, Islamists have been excused from such encumbrances when promoting their faith.)

The question should be "Which candidate(s) lie about their own accomplishments (they did or they didn't) and lie about the stated goals of other, opposing candidates?".

I must note that not much Trump says about his Democratic opponents is demonstrably false, whereas their comments and attributions of his alleged policies and behaviours leave much to be desired in terms of veracity.

I'm no fan of situation ethics or relative goodness, because I believe in absolutes of right and wrong. With that consideration, I prefer to make verifiable statements when stating fact (this is opinion), and commonly cite sources for information.

With that in mind, though, consider which of the two leading candidates for POTUS has spent the most time, energy, and money saying things which just aren't so about the other, and the fog clears. The tendency for incontinent prevarication is commonly on one side, and they even buy ad space to mislead their supporters or turn others against their opponent.

But then, projection is one of their defining behaviours.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 02:17:01 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2024, 08:30:53 pm »
Another counter-argument is that to be a lie, the person speaking must know it is false (and intend to deceive).  Trump is not a liar, but (like most politicians) a bulls**tter, in the sense that bulls**t is defined by Harry G. Frankfurt in his charming little volume On Bulls**t.  Bulls**t is saying whatever is expedient without regard to whether it is true or false. Unfortunately for one's view of politicians, Trump included, Frankfurt concludes that bulls**tting is a worse enemy of truth than lying.  The liar at least has enough regard for the truth to know it, but say something contrary to it.  The bulls**tter has no regard for the truth at all.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2024, 08:40:39 pm »
In other words, because everyone already knows Trump is a liar, he can't deceive anyone, and therefore isn't really lying.

Points for creativity, at least.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2024, 08:43:59 pm »
In other words, because everyone already knows Trump is a liar, he can't deceive anyone, and therefore isn't really lying.

Points for creativity, at least.

Kamel uses word salad so she is not necessarily a liar? *hmmmm*

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2024, 11:39:18 pm »
In other words, because everyone already knows Trump is a liar, he can't deceive anyone, and therefore isn't really lying.

Points for creativity, at least.

YES.

Don't try to justify it. it's indefensible.

Just say yes, and get it over with.
And know you're  voting for it.
And with it, saying his lies do not matter to you.

That's the truth of it.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2024, 01:06:25 pm »
Kamel uses word salad so she is not necessarily a liar? *hmmmm*

Great comparison.  Yes, this argument about Trump is pretty much equivalent to the one you just made about Kamala.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2024, 01:16:32 pm »
Great comparison.  Yes, this argument about Trump is pretty much equivalent to the one you just made about Kamala.

An argument that can be made about virtually all politicians who have ever run for office and asks for votes in the USA.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2024, 03:23:31 pm »
An argument that can be made about virtually all politicians who have ever run for office and asks for votes in the USA.

So thereby rendered moot?

No.

Tumpy is a liar.
He lied, maliciously, about Cruz.
And then he lied, maliciously, about DeSantis.

He's a baldfaced liar.
And you're (y'all) voting for that.
And then wonder why there is no integrity.
Go figger.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2024, 03:55:39 pm »
So thereby rendered moot?

No.

Tumpy is a liar.
He lied, maliciously, about Cruz.
And then he lied, maliciously, about DeSantis.

He's a baldfaced liar.
And you're (y'all) voting for that.
And then wonder why there is no integrity.
Go figger.

They are all liars, so that removes the argument that only "Tumpy" lies.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2024, 04:28:07 pm »
The interesting question in regard to Trump's shall we say "flexible" relationship with the truth, whether you regard it as lying or as I hold, bulls**tting in Harry G. Frankfurt's technical sense of the word, but let's go with lying for the sake of argument, is which variety of lie has a more pernicious effect on society, politics, and the governance of the republic:  Trump's outrageous exaggerations and self-serving shading of the truth, or the opposing raft of lies justified "because Trump" by the entirety of what passes for a Left in America these days, the mainstream media, and the intelligence services.  (cf. Russian "collusion", the Hunter Biden laptop has "all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation", Harris "was never border czar", pulling down assessments of Harris as the most liberal -- meaning left-wing -- Senator, scrubbing her bio of time spent living in Berkeley and Canada,...)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 04:33:06 pm by The_Reader_David »
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Offline banddag

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2024, 04:45:59 pm »
If you get away from the maga/conservative forums and read other sources you will find many conservatives are starting to leave Trump in droves. Even Maga conservatives.

People can only stand so much BS, lies and chaos. This movement started earlier this year. There is a growing backlash against Trump from his own party.


Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2024, 04:47:29 pm »
They are all liars, so that removes the argument that only "Tumpy" lies.

I think not.
I do no recall a volume of lies coming out of DeSantis, for instance...
No doubt one can point to one or two, a here and there, which can be counted as missteps, but I saw no vast propensity in him, or I would not have supported him.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2024, 04:53:33 pm »
[...] Trump's outrageous exaggerations and self-serving shading of the truth, or the opposing raft of lies justified "because Trump" by the entirety of what passes for a Left in America these days [...]

But that ain't right.
It's Tumpy's outrageous exaggerations and self-serving shading of the truth, as opposed to the truth.

And the raft of lies justified "because Trump" by the entirety of what passes for a Left in America these days, as opposed to the truth.

One lie does not justify another.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2024, 04:55:03 pm »
All y'all, when did your mammas tell you it was alright to do it because the other kids did?

That ain't how it went in my house.

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2024, 05:09:57 pm »
But that ain't right.
It's Tumpy's outrageous exaggerations and self-serving shading of the truth, as opposed to the truth.

And the raft of lies justified "because Trump" by the entirety of what passes for a Left in America these days, as opposed to the truth.

One lie does not justify another.

My post did not suggest any justification.  It asked the question of which lies are more pernicious. 

I realize that the Western Christian tradition holds that lying is indefeasibly evil.  I am an Orthodox Christian, and St. John Chrysostom has examples of salutary lies:  the physician, who, knowing that the wine a patient is demanding will harm him, but that water will benefit him, smearing the lip of an earthenware cup with wine, filling with water, and telling the patient that it is wine so he will drink the water, or the spiritual father, who, knowing (whether by ordinary means or a prophetic gift) that one of his spiritual children has fallen into a grave sin which he is not confessing, confessing having fallen into the same sin (which he has not) to move his spiritual child to compuction.   Even some Western Christians, the Jesuits, for instance, have spun moral justifications for lying in time of war.

Now the lies of our politicians are not so salutary as Chrysostom's example, but the point is that not all lies are the same, some are (per Chrysostom) not even sins, some do no harm ("white lies"), other lesser harm, others great harm.

We have two liars (or two bulls**tters) competing for the highest office in the land.  Neither's lies (or bulls**t) are justified.  Which one's lies are more pernicious?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 05:18:12 pm by The_Reader_David »
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2024, 05:49:30 pm »
I think not.
I do no recall a volume of lies coming out of DeSantis, for instance...
No doubt one can point to one or two, a here and there, which can be counted as missteps, but I saw no vast propensity in him, or I would not have supported him.

Am I OK with that?  Absolutely not!  I have lost friends when they won elections and started lying to me.  It's why I decided I am not going down that road myself, and I have told some of the ex-friends to their faces why that is.  It would be like selling my soul, and it's not for sale.

Find me a politician who has never lied, and get him/her to write a book.  It would sell. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline DB

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2024, 05:57:11 pm »
Lies that significantly damage other people's good character is a bridge too far for me.

Trump has done that with both Cruz and DeSantis.

It is "winning" at any cost.

Offline MeganC

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2024, 06:01:22 pm »
If you get away from the maga/conservative forums and read other sources you will find many conservatives are starting to leave Trump in droves. Even Maga conservatives.

People can only stand so much BS, lies and chaos. This movement started earlier this year. There is a growing backlash against Trump from his own party.

So you'll be voting for Harris or simply defaulting your vote to her by refusing to vote for DJT?

Well, when she imposes socialism you'll be able to stand on your laurels and tell us how right you were not to support the Orange Man.
Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2024, 06:05:54 pm »
My post did not suggest any justification.  It asked the question of which lies are more pernicious. 

I realize that the Western Christian tradition holds that lying is indefeasibly evil.  I am an Orthodox Christian, and St. John Chrysostom has examples of salutary lies:  the physician, who, knowing that the wine a patient is demanding will harm him, but that water will benefit him, smearing the lip of an earthenware cup with wine, filling with water, and telling the patient that it is wine so he will drink the water, or the spiritual father, who, knowing (whether by ordinary means or a prophetic gift) that one of his spiritual children has fallen into a grave sin which he is not confessing, confessing having fallen into the same sin (which he has not) to move his spiritual child to compuction.   Even some Western Christians, the Jesuits, for instance, have spun moral justifications for lying in time of war.

Now the lies of our politicians are not so salutary as Chrysostom's example, but the point is that not all lies are the same, some are (per Chrysostom) not even sins, some do no harm ("white lies"), other lesser harm, others great harm.

We have two liars (or two bulls**tters) competing for the highest office in the land.  Neither's lies (or bulls**t) are justified.  Which one's lies are more pernicious?


Reposted for emphasis - This is why I like you. Particularly the emboldened summary:

My answer of course, is that both sides are beyond the pale, and both sides are so pernicious and malicious in their content that it is well beyond any meaningful measurement - And that coming from a bullshitter of fair accomplishment myself.

It is one thing to tell a white lie. It is one thing to embellish a story (my own propensity, no doubt one of which the members here are thoroughly aware).

It is not alright in my eyes, when the nature of the lie is malicious.

It does no harm, and may even have some good in it when one embellishes a story to provide a bit of humor, or to accentuate some moral dilemma, or to deliver a moral end - Such is artistic license, if you will. Such is the way of storytelling.

But the minute the work of the embellishment is malicious - That then is beyond the gray. That is in fact, a lie, and a lie without purpose other than to defeat an opponent or to lift ones self up.

And in terms of preserving the art of bullshit, I find that not only unconscionable, but of utter damage to storytelling and free press.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2024, 06:07:00 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2024, 06:06:33 pm »
So you'll be voting for Harris or simply defaulting your vote to her by refusing to vote for DJT?

Well, when she imposes socialism you'll be able to stand on your laurels and tell us how right you were not to support the Orange Man.

Just need a new venue, because it's likely forums like TBR will get the boot.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2024, 06:12:20 pm »
So you'll be voting for Harris or simply defaulting your vote to her by refusing to vote for DJT?


That is nonsense, and has been debunked often here, ad nauseam.

Quote
Well, when she imposes socialism you'll be able to stand on your laurels and tell us how right you were not to support the Orange Man.

Hyperbole much?

The more damaging vote is to vote *FOR* socialism coming from the RIGHT.
That is surrender.

Offline MeganC

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2024, 06:20:02 pm »
Just need a new venue, because it's likely forums like TBR will get the boot.

To be expected.
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Offline MeganC

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Re: Is Trump a liar?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2024, 06:22:31 pm »
That is nonsense, and has been debunked often here, ad nauseam.

Hyperbole much?

The more damaging vote is to vote *FOR* socialism coming from the RIGHT.
That is surrender.

The time for you to oppose DJT was before and during the primaries like I did. Now is the time to stand against Harris even if you don't like Trump.
Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.