Ukraine 4

[Kamaji]

Like the German Leopard 2s that Ukraine is using, the training for the M1 Abrams involved a lot more than learning where levers and gauges were located. Leopards and Abrams were designed for a very different strategy than the Soviets/Russians planned to employ, and the sensors on both are much more capable that what the Soviet era tanks Ukraine had inherited and updated have.

Which means we should expect a few early battlefield losses, just as with the Leopards.

[kevindavis007]

Good....

https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1705241271738974395

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Do drones make MBT's irrelevant though? Seems like it...

And I love tanks.

[Kamaji]

Do drones make MBT's irrelevant though? Seems like it...

And I love tanks.

Only if one can blanket the field with enough drones to stop each and every tank.

So far, that hasn't been the case.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Only if one can blanket the field with enough drones to stop each and every tank.

So far, that hasn't been the case.

One mass production hits though... seems 5-10 drones may be cheaper than 1 tank.

[PeteS in CA]

Do drones make MBT's irrelevant though? Seems like it...

And I love tanks.

Every major weapon has its day. During that "day", for example, battleships evolved from pre-Dreadnoughts to Dreadnoughts to super-Dreadnoughts (main guns larger that 12") to fast battleships (fast enough to steam in formation with carriers). Then those carriers showed they were much more capable - more destructive, from longer ranges, and harder to find.

Drones complicate the threat environment in which tanks operate. Drones can damage tanks or direct artillery onto a tank (column). OTOH, drones can help tanks find threats and targets.

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1705212795883557116

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Do drones make MBT's irrelevant though? Seems like it...

And I love tanks.

I don't think so.  Ukraine has been fighting in a drone-heavy environment for a year and a half, and they are still desperate for tanks.  That wouldn't be the case if they still weren't useful.

There are counters to drones, both electronic and otherwise.  They're also limited by weather, visibility, range, etc..  Isolated tanks are always going to be vulnerable to various countermeasures, including drones, but there aren't unlimited drones everywhere.  Tanks and other armored vehicles used en masse and moving fast are still a very potent battlefield weapon, and really the only way to take ground quickly.

[sneakypete]

One mass production hits though... seems 5-10 drones may be cheaper than 1 tank.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

I'm with ya on this one.

In FACT,put me down  as someone that thinks Drones are going to make tanks obsolete.

[Kamaji]

One mass production hits though... seems 5-10 drones may be cheaper than 1 tank.

Only if those 5-10 drones can absolutely shut down the tanks.  So far, that has not proven to be the case.  Each drone also still has to carry tank-killer munitions, and those are not as easy to produce as the drone itself.

[Smokin Joe]

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

I'm with ya on this one.

In FACT,put me down  as someone that thinks Drones are going to make tanks obsolete.

Unless and until tanks become even more than they are today. Keith Laumer's Bolo stories (Sci-fi) come to mind.

[DB]

Only if those 5-10 drones can absolutely shut down the tanks.  So far, that has not proven to be the case.  Each drone also still has to carry tank-killer munitions, and those are not as easy to produce as the drone itself.

I wonder how affective thermite strategically placed on tank armor is. I think thermite is pretty light.

[Kamaji]

I wonder how affective thermite strategically placed on tank armor is. I think thermite is pretty light.

Probably not very effective, particularly against the ceramic components.

[240B]

Only if those 5-10 drones can absolutely shut down the tanks. 

It is not needed to 'absolutely shut down' the tanks. All that is needed is to harass and wound it. The tanks are far from any form of repair and Russia has no parts to repair it anyway. Even a small thing such as taking out communication or warping a hatch or some component of the tank, is enough to make it vulnerable. The crew will abandon it and run away.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

It is not needed to 'absolutely shut down' the tanks. All that is needed is to harass and wound it. The tanks are far from any form of repair and Russia has no parts to repair it anyway. Even a small thing such as taking out communication or warping a hatch or some component of the tank, is enough to make it vulnerable. The crew will abandon it and run away.

Russian tank turrets fly off in like every tank explosion ever due to them designing their tanks with the ammunition stored in a ring under the turret. Means even a little breach can be totally catastrophic. Basically they have consistently designed their equipment for very little regard for crew safety, much like their wider military strategy. Not sure how anyone who calls themselves a patriot could design equipment for no regard for human safety.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Unless and until tanks become even more than they are today. Keith Laumer's Bolo stories (Sci-fi) come to mind.

Absolutely tanks could evolve some sort of anti-drone strategy.

[Kamaji]

It is not needed to 'absolutely shut down' the tanks. All that is needed is to harass and wound it. The tanks are far from any form of repair and Russia has no parts to repair it anyway. Even a small thing such as taking out communication or warping a hatch or some component of the tank, is enough to make it vulnerable. The crew will abandon it and run away.

Well, then so far drones are a bust, because they haven't been able to chase tanks off the battlefield.

[240B]

Well, then so far drones are a bust, because they haven't been able to chase tanks off the battlefield.

Maybe. But Ukraine has so many defunct and abandoned Russian tanks in salvage now that they cannot fit anymore. Something is working.

[Kamaji]

Maybe. But Ukraine has so many defunct and abandoned Russian tanks in salvage now that they cannot fit anymore. Something is working.

Then why haven't the Russians demolished all of Ukraine's tanks with drones?

Ukraine has made a couple of interesting tank kills with drones, but most of their kills have come from anti-tank missiles.

[240B]

Then why haven't the Russians demolished all of Ukraine's tanks with drones?

Russia does not use their drones on military targets like tanks. Russia sends drones to hospitals, schools, and apartment blocks. Russia is salvaging technology/chips from smart appliances such as dishwashers to make pseudo-drones. They are out of parts.

[Timber Rattler]

Storm Shadow cruise missiles.

https://rumble.com/v3jwroo-footage-of-ukrainian-missiles-hitting-the-headquarters-of-russian-black-sea.html

[PeteS in CA]

Storm Shadow cruise missiles.

https://rumble.com/v3jwroo-footage-of-ukrainian-missiles-hitting-the-headquarters-of-russian-black-sea.html

A day or two ago the Ukrainians took out a significant Black Sea Fleet communications facility, possibly with the communications people as well. Crimea, Sevastopol particularly, has become a much less useful and usable naval base.

[sneakypete]

Well, then so far drones are a bust, because they haven't been able to chase tanks off the battlefield.

@Kamaji

How long have tanks been around?

How long have  tank-killer drones been around?

Tank-killing drones are still a new technology,but this technology is developing rapidly when it comes to Soviet tanks.

Don't forget that it is not really necessary to "kill" the tank. All you need to do is kill or disable the tank crew,and being inside one of those SOB's when a couple of drones loaded with  HE come a-knock,knock,knocking is NOT something that *I* ever want to experience.

Now,to further "seal the deal",how long does it take to train a tank crew to the point where they are effective,compared to hold long it takes to train a drone operator that might not even be in the  same country as the drone he is guiding?

[Hoodat]

'Many Officers' Reported Killed After Strike on Russian HQ Near Kherson

BRENDAN COLE  |  9/20/23 AT 5:54 AM EDT

Russian army officers key to Moscow's war effort in Ukraine were killed following a strike on their military headquarters, a Russian Telegram channel has reported.

The VChK-OGPU outlet, which purports to have inside information from Russian security forces, said that the command post of Russia's 7th Airborne Division located in the occupied part of the southern Ukrainian oblast of Kherson had been hit.

"Many officers died from a targeted strike," said the post, "the exact number of victims has been carefully concealed. At the time of the shelling, the paratroopers had been undergoing daily planning."

The channel said the information was confirmed by Yevgeny Khanin, the chairman of the veterans organization of the 7th Guards Air Assault Division stationed in Novorossiysk, in Russia's Krasnodar region, which lies close to Kherson.  .  .

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-officers-kherson-vchk-ogpu-1828371

[Hoodat]

Russian Commander of Elite Air Assault Brigade Killed in Ukraine

ISABEL VAN BRUGEN  |  9/18/23 AT 5:23 AM EDT

Colonel Andrey Kondrashkin, the commander of a Russian elite air assault brigade, has reportedly been killed in Ukraine.

The news was announced by Alexander Khodakovsky, the commander of the Russian-aligned "Vostok" battalion fighting on the Donetsk front, whose troops were pushed out of the village of Urozhaine in August.

Kondrashkin, the commander of the elite 31st Airborne Storm Brigade, is reported to have played a crucial role in Russia's siege of Mariupol in 2022. Khodakovsky suggested he was killed in a Ukrainian strike.  .  .

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-commander-elite-air-assualt-brigade-andrey-kondrashkin-killed-ukraine-1827697