Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried

[Dexter]

How do you expect an entity that creates zero wealth to be capable of helping everybody?

I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency. Maybe Roamer is right, and I'm just watching too much Star Trek. It's interesting how often science fiction becomes science reality though.

[roamer_1]

I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency. Maybe Roamer is right, and I'm just watching too much Star Trek. It's interesting how often science fiction becomes science reality though.

...Written of course in the fevered dreams of hollywood socialists...

[Dexter]

at this time

At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is? Somebody 500 years from now would find it even more challenging to explain their everyday technology to us.

[roamer_1]

At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is?

It will all come crashing down long before then.

[LMAO]

What you've suggested is illogical. Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?

SPOILER: You can't, because there isn't a single thing. If they're not communist then neither is Bernie.

You need to really look at Bernie Sander’s history. He has a history of advocating nationalization  and while he was praising communist dictators back in the 80s, he also praised the fact that they had food lines. What Bernie Sanders desires is more in line with what nations like Greece had  before their system collapsed. His Medicare for All is more generous than even the Scandinavian countries he loves to mention have. That’s a fast track to bankrupting the healthcare system alone to say nothing of the economy at large

 I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “free”

Your “spoiler” is basically an indication to others that you will not hear anything that’s negative regarding Mr. Sanders  regardless if it is true

[Dexter]

You need to really look at Bernie Sander’s history. He has a history of advocating nationalization  and while he was praising communist dictators back in the 80s, he also praised the fact that they had food lines. What Bernie Sanders desires is more in line with what nations like Greece had  before their system collapsed. His Medicare for All is more generous than even the Scandinavian countries he loves to mention have. That’s a fast track to bankrupting the healthcare system alone to say nothing of the economy at large

 I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “free”

Your “spoiler” is basically an indication to others that you will not hear anything that’s negative regarding Mr. Sanders  regardless if it is true

I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.

[roamer_1]

I think you’re being duped a bit. All you just hear from him it is how everything is going to be “free”

Yes. Until he's asked how he is going to pay for it. Then the answers are few and far between.

[Dexter]

It will all come crashing down long before then.

Ye of little faith...

I think humanity has only begun scratching at the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.

[LMAO]

LOL, after 30 more years of life experience, you will be laughing as well.

Youthful idealism.  It’s also an open window into how separate the left is from  real economics

He states government will have to help everybody because they’ll be no jobs for people because of automation. Although not true, if nobody is working where will the government get the money to “help” people?

[Hoodat]

What you've suggested is illogical.

Nonsense.  Sanders has espoused communist ideals his entire political career, and to this day heaps praise on communist leaders.

Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?

No college debt, elimination of private health insurance, federally mandated minimum wage, capping bank assets, banning assault weapons, guaranteed basic income, etc.

SPOILER: You can't, because there isn't a single thing.

Spoiler - you should do some actual investigating yourself instead of parroting bullshit you read on DU.

If they're not communist then neither is Bernie.

You also need to take a logic course.

[Hoodat]

I think when humanity outgrows the need for human labor it will also outgrow the need for currency.

That doesn't address the question.  Currency was never mentioned.  Again, how do you expect an entity that creates zero wealth to be capable of helping everybody?

[LMAO]

Ye of little faith...

I think humanity has only begun scratching at the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.

 You are all over the map

 You post that animation will take away all jobs and turn mankind into nothing more than government dependent subjects

 And then you tell us how much of the human drive will bring about advancement

[roamer_1]

Ye of little faith...

I think humanity has only begun scratching the surface of its destiny. You and I will be thought of as very primitive people someday.

yup. too much star trek.

Look... Rule number one: Simple systems are durable. Complexity introduces/increases failure.
As we near the horizon line you dream of, we are also nearing the point of non-recovery. When the system crashes (as history attests it will), with all  knowledge converted to electronic media, without a means of reading that knowedge it will be lost... And when it crashes, the people by and large are too far away from the land to survive... Similar to the fall of Rome producing the dark ages...

The chances are greater in a couple hundred years,  that a thumb drive will be hung around the neck of a native by a chunk of rawhide as a magic totem than the realization of your grand vision.

[LMAO]

Nonsense.  Sanders has espoused communist ideals his entire political career, and to this day heaps praise on communist leaders.


No college debt, elimination of private health insurance, federally mandated minimum wage, capping bank assets, banning assault weapons, guaranteed basic income, etc.


Spoiler - you should do some actual investigating yourself instead of parroting bullshit you read on DU.


You also need to take a logic course.

It’s been my experience that when someone asked for information and then tells you “spoiler. you can’t” it means that they will probably not listen to anything that’s factual

[Hoodat]

It’s been my experience that when someone asked for information and then tells you “spoiler. you can’t” it means that they will probably not listen to anything that’s factual

I'm just sick and tired of the lie that Sanders advocates what they have in Scandinavia.  He doesn't.  Instead, he advocates what the Bolsheviks and the NSDAP advocated in their early years.

[Dexter]

No college debt

Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?

elimination of private health insurance

He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.

federally mandated minimum wage

They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.

capping bank assets

His position on the banks is one of the things I agree with the most. Our banking system is a mess, and the Fed needs to be audited and constantly scrutinized.

banning assault weapons

Guns is where I disagree with Bernie the most. That being said the Scandinavian nations have a lot of gun regulation and Bernie is actually not as much of a gun grabber as most on the left.

guaranteed basic income, etc.

I thought that was more Yang's thing.


Anyway, nothing you've described makes Bernie a communist. For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.

[Dexter]

He doesn't.

Somebody should tell him that. For more than 30 years he has been saying we should follow their example to the best of our ability.

[Hoodat]

Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?

It's expensive because government subsidy drives up the price.  Get rid of government involvement, and prices will go down.  And Bernie has said repeatedly that he wants to eliminate college debt.  Contrast that with Sweden:

Sweden vs. the U.S.

Of course, the average U.S. student carries about 30% more in debt, at $24,800. But new Swedish graduates have the highest debt-to-income ratios of any group of students in the developed world, at about 80%. In the U.S., the average is closer to 60%. Why is this the case?

He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.

This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.

They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.

Nope.  Unlike Scandinavia, Bernie Sanders favors government setting a minimum wage.

His position on the banks is one of the things I agree with the most. Our banking system is a mess, and the Fed needs to be audited and constantly scrutinized.

You may agree with it, but Scandinavian countries do not.

Guns is where I disagree with Bernie the most. That being said the Scandinavian nations have a lot of gun regulation and Bernie is actually not as much of a gun grabber as most on the left.

Again, Sanders wants to ban "assault weapons".  Contrast that with Sweden where fully automatic weapons are legal.

For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.

But that's not what you asked.  Here was the question I responded to:

Can you name a single thing Bernie advocates for that isn't already being done in one or all of those countries?

Bernie a communist. For Bernie to be a communist he would need to be advocating for the elimination of the private sector in favor of the public (government) owning and controlling all production. That's simply not the case; it's not what he stands for.

See:  Elimination of private insurance, elimination of tuition lenders, takeover of energy industry, etc.

So the question now is:  Are you really this ignorant of what Bernie Sanders stands for?  Or do you really know but are lying about it.

[Hoodat]

Somebody should tell him that. For more than 30 years he has been saying we should follow their example to the best of our ability.

Are you really surprised that a communist lied about what he wants to do?  Again, I strongly recommend you do some research (as I have done over the last 30 minutes or so) to compare his actual positions with what Scandinavia does, instead of parroting tired discredited bullshit you read at DU.  Think, man.  Use your brain.  The record could not be more clear.  I have given you numerous examples already.  Yet here you are insisting that Bernie Sanders has to be right while the facts are wrong, simply because you feel it.

[sneakypete]

I'm glad that you can at least agree that he's well-meaning.

@Dexter

Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot,Castro,and every other monster was also "well-meaning". In their own minds they were just forcing people to do what was best for them and best for their nations.

Biden is not, and to me that matters. I think if we had to choose one Bernie would be better.

I will take a selfish,self-serving crook over a "Crusader" every time. The crook just wants to make money,the "self-described Saint" wants to enslave everyone so he or she can use the power of government to make them "live properly".

 

He'd more likely go in there and start running his mouth about the special interests that run politics and prevent anything real from happening.

Maybe,until the bags of cash start showing up. Remember Bernie has 3 homes now? A "true believer" would not have spent a million + bucks on a lakeside home he only occasionally visits. He would have spent it on something like a Food Bank.

Are the Scandinavian countries socialist? I'm not saying we could successfully emulate everything they do, but really it is their way of doing things that Bernie has been advocating for for more than 30 years now.

More proof he is a fool. The Scandinavian system worked for as long as it did because they were for all practical purposes one people with one culture,one religion,and one history,backed up with all that "free money" coming in from their offshore oil wells to support a VERY small population of people united by both DNA and customs.

This allowed them the comfort of being fools,but it was and is only a short-term comfort. They are now burning their nation down and don't know what to do about it because to admit that importing Muslims was a horrible mistake would cause them to question the other things that make them smug and preachy.

 

I think if you break it down the Scandinavian countries are not actually socialist. They are capitalist nations with large social safety nets.

You say that just like there is a difference. How cute! Denial ain't just a river in Egypt,bubba.

[Smokin Joe]

I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.

I would caution you on that. Consider, once again, that those who are motivated by doing things to people "for their own good" are NEVER satiated, no matter the result of their actions, that those actions often result in more harm than good, justifying (in their minds) further ministrations "for their own good". These people can always find some more "good" to bestow upon others, regardless of the actual result and are NEVER satisfied.

The crook, the one who seeks wealth can be satiated, can reach that point where they have enough.

Those who would be our saviour, can never be, and thus will never rest.

As I said before, I'll take the one who is predictable, who has their definite god for which they yearn, over the one who has an ever moving target of "goodness for the masses" which can be used to justify any and every despicable act perpetrated upon the few for the benefit of the many.

Biden is a greedy crook. Sanders has dreams of being "from the government, here to help you". Those last seven words should strike terror into the hearts of any freedom loving American.

[sneakypete]

Are the Scandinavian countries communist?

@Dexter

Is Bernie Scandinavian? Put lipstick on a pig,and it is still a pig.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

It is easier for an ideologue to deny reality than to question their own beliefs.  It's a problem all along the political spectrum.

[sneakypete]

I wish folks would quit hiding behind the Nordic countries as some sort of socialist nirvana.

First of all, they are tiny by comparison, with an homogeneous population.
Second of all, they have no defense budget to worry about, being under the jurisdiction of NATO countries... Namely US.

And even without a direct cost for defense, they are not doing very well, as their high cost socialist programs have inflated their economy tremendously.

@roamer_1

ALMOST everything above.

They are no longer an " homogeneous people". They have not only brought the fox into the hen house so they could to their little "superiority dance" to show the rest of us how "evolved" they are,but they also not only invited their destruction in,they paid it to come.

Scandinavia is now a region of physical females,and females with penises.  They bleed themselves out over the centuries,and the Scandinavian men with stones that didn't die,took up with the local women in warmer climes and didn't come back.

[roamer_1]

I would caution you on that. Consider, once again, that those who are motivated by doing things to people "for their own good" are NEVER satiated, no matter the result of their actions, that those actions often result in more harm than good, justifying (in their minds) further ministrations "for their own good". These people can always find some more "good" to bestow upon others, regardless of the actual result and are NEVER satisfied.

The crook, the one who seeks wealth can be satiated, can reach that point where they have enough.

Those who would be our saviour, can never be, and thus will never rest.

As I said before, I'll take the one who is predictable, who has their definite god for which they yearn, over the one who has an ever moving target of "goodness for the masses" which can be used to justify any and every despicable act perpetrated upon the few for the benefit of the many.

There is a quote to that effect - I have been wracking my brain cell to come up with it... Nope. Maybe @Bigun  will have it...

Biden is a greedy crook. Sanders has dreams of being "from the government, here to help you". Those last seven words should strike terror into the hearts of any freedom loving American.

EXACTLY right.