Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried

[thackney]

Some nations actually pay their young people to go to college. I think Bernie's position on college is that he wants it to be more affordable for more people. It is kinda expensive right now, no?

College is also made expensive by creating too much demand for it.  Many would be better served with trade skills than some of the degrees they get in college.

He wants a public option for poor people that struggle to afford private treatment. Private healthcare isn't going anywhere any time soon. Well off people will continue to get the best care money can buy regardless of a public option for those that can't afford it.

That already exists.  Every hospital ends up treating people that do not pay.

They have very powerful worker unions in Scandinavian nations that bargain for wages, making the need for a minimum nonexistent. I think Sanders would probably say he'd prefer to do it that way if you asked him.

Do all workers in those nations belong to unions?  Is it mandatory?

[Cyber Liberty]

Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

--C.S. Lewis

[roamer_1]

Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!

THAT's the quote I was thinking of! Thanks @Cyber Liberty !!

[sneakypete]

It is inevitable. The government big enough to give you all that free stuff is big enough to rule you - And ultimately, rule you they will. It is the nature of the beast.

@roamer_1

They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.

ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law  unless you are living in a police state.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!

One of my favorite quotes.

[sneakypete]

I've already discussed why I think the government will have to help everybody sooner or later. Automation is swallowing up jobs and it's not going to stop or slow down.

@Dexter

This is why sociologists have been pushing for things like abortion and every other means of population control for the last 100 years or so.

Some people may think there has been periods in the history of mankind where violence and lawlessness were prevalent,but they ain't seen NOTHING yet!

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.

ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law  unless you are living in a police state.

It's even more visceral than that @sneakypete ... preacher's gonna preach... Artist's gonna paint... Bean counters count beans... And governors are going to govern. By its nature government seeks to control. To constrict. That it also happens to be an attractive vehicle to be abused by criminals is beside the point. It is the nature of the thing that causes it to be necessary but constrained. If it gets loose...

[sneakypete]

I've been hearing about technology destroying human employment for 50 years now.  Your understanding of our species' ability to adapt is pretty thin.  As long as there is money to be made, and the human characteristic of innovation.....   Your argument is laughable.

@catfish1957

Sending factory jobs,jobs normally worked by people with no education,not much in the way of critical thinking ability who are mostly human drones,while sitting at home and earning dividends from stock profits does not lead to anything but revolution. Even if as a nation you are pulling in enough in sales to other nations to keep the newly unemployed factory workers living in public housing as some sort of "retired pets",it is NOT a long-term solution. Younger people with nothing but time on their hands and nothing productive to do will eventually get bored enough to create their own excitement.

What happens when there are more of them than there are productive people?

[Smokin Joe]

Amazing...125 posts, and this hasn't been posted once!

I had the concept, but not the quote. Thanks! 

[sneakypete]

It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.

@Dexter

The ONLY answer to that problem is fewer people. Which eventually leads to "triage" laws that deny health care to people with certain physical or mental problems,as well as mandatory birth control.

Guess what steps lie behind "door number 2",when it becomes obvious to the few productive citizens that the non-productive citizens are a drag on the economy that is keeping THEM from living even more comfortable lives because of all the taxes they pay to support the "Perpetually poor and unemployed"?

[Cyber Liberty]

Another quote:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

― Alexander Fraser Tytler

[sneakypete]

We're incredible at adapting. That's why when the time comes we will make the obvious choice, which is to help people so society doesn't collapse.

@Dexter

ROFLMAO! You should change your screen name to "Pollyanna". Selfish Self-Interest RULES! Always has,always will. People can be generous with the needy for a while and feel good about themselves because of it,but when the relatively few people who remain productive are taxed to the point where the people their tax money support are living better than they are,things tend to get ugly.

ANY system that is contrary to human nature is doomed to fail in the long run. Human Nature 101 rules,socialists drool.

[sneakypete]

Why we are incredible at adapting is because we are free. When we are no longer free, we will no longer adapt. Even now it is noticeable.

And what will make society collapse is the government y'all deserve.

@roamer_1

How can that NOT be obvious to anyone intelligent enough to populate political boards?

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

How can that NOT be obvious to anyone intelligent enough to populate political boards?

@sneakypete

It boggles the mind. More than that, that it is the same old siren song....The thing the yoots don't know is that us duffers have heard it all before.

[Smokin Joe]

@roamer_1

They MUST rule over the citizens to be able to get away with taking away from the industrious to keep the slackers living in comfort. This eventually results in creating a nation of slackers because of human nature. They devolve to the point where the government plays "whack a mole" with anyone creative and hard-working that pops up because they are a threat to the system.

ANYONE can come up with theories that sound wonderful on paper,but no matter how wonderful they sound,they can NOT be contrary to human nature and become law  unless you are living in a police state.

Pete, it is the same reason that the Social Justice 'warriors', Rainbow "warriors", Feminist "warriors", etc. become incontinent in the presence of a real Warrior, or even the symbols of a true Warrior culture. It is why those groups and others of their ilk seek to destroy even the symbols of a Warrior culture, right down to sports teams' mascots.
They are singularly intolerant of those who  expose their whining merely by their presence, and typically, use their powers of guile to undermine the true Warriors, and for that matter any risk takers who actually go out and do things, real, uncomfortable, and and dangerous things that the rest might sleep comfortably at night. Those who did not 'ever hold their manhoods cheap' because they didn't.

[goatprairie]

At this time we're not even capable of imagining what might exist in a handful of centuries. Technology is advancing at a multiplicative rate. That means it's getting more and more advanced at a faster and faster rate. The difference between technology now and technology 500 years from now will be enormously bigger than the difference between technology now and technology 500 years ago. Can you imagine trying to explain to Columbus what satellite internet is? Somebody 500 years from now would find it even more challenging to explain their everyday technology to us.

Maybe....maybe not. One thing is for certain....you can't reinvent the wheel. Most of the great technology/machines has been invented in the last one hundred and fifty years. That means for hundreds of thousands of years up to the mid 1800s humans lived mostly as their remote ancestors had lived.
Life was a struggle filled with hard work and calamities for 99% of the world's population.
Then the Industrial Revolution occurred in the mid 1800s. The people of 1900, had access to much more machines and technological advances than the people of fifty years previous.
Again, the people of 1950 had much more than the people of 1900.
Again, the people of 2000 had much more than the people of 1950.
Yet, a person (at least this person) could live a very satisfying life with just the stuff available in 1950.
Cars, planes, radios, movie theaters, tvs, refrigerators, air conditioning, washing machines, dishwashers, and a host of other devices, machines, and medical advances were readily available.  Most of the things I enjoy doing in life were around in 1950. They're better today, but they're basically the same type of labor-saving machine.
We live closer to the lives of the people of 1950 than the people of 1950 did to the people of 1900.
In short, the invention of devices to make out life greatly easier has been diminishing rather than increasing.
I was quite happy before laptop computers and cell phones. I don't much use a cell phone now. I could find my way around quite well without GPS. 
I enjoy the new toys available today, but I could get along without them. All I crave is good health.
So what new things might be available 50 to 100 years from now? We won't know until they're here.
Short of being able to get thousands of miles from my home more rapidly and more comfortably than now would be nice. But it's not too terrible at the moment.
Cures for horrible diseases would be nice as well.
But that wouldn't necessarily make a healthy person's life more interesting. He or she would still have to do things to make life interesting. Machines can't perform that function very well if at all.
But again, what new great machines are in the future?
There might not be as many as you think.

P.S. Forget about flying cars. Until they find a way to reverse gravity (ha,ha), flying cars will not happen.

[Cyber Liberty]

This thread is running over 5 pages as a result of somebody having a dorm room bull session, and revealing all of the smart stuff on TBR.

[Bigun]

@Dexter may I suggest a little light reading for you.  It seems we have already been where you, and Bernie, would take us.



Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it!

George Santayana

[goatprairie]

I'm not even a huge Bernie supporter. I recognize that not all of his ideas would be practical in the states. I just think he's a decent human that deserves a little bit more respect than Joe Biden.

I don't even think he's a decent human being. If he thinks that socialist societies of the past and now were/are superior to capitalist societies, he's an idiot fellow traveler at the least.
He is causing many thousands if not millions of impressionable young people to seriously believe a seriously flawed ideology like socialism can lead to them living better lives.
In short, he thinks we can reverse human nature.
Just by leading those many thousands of skulls full of mush astray makes him a vile scoundrel.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Dexter may I suggest a little light reading for you.  It seems we have already been where you, and Bernie, would take us.

The "wrong" people were in charge back then.  This time it will be different because we have the giant intellects of people like Sanders.

Or something.

[corbe]

Fast Times At Socialist High


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[goatprairie]

I remember talking to a very liberal co-worker some years ago (fifteen or twenty) who was a world traveler.
He was nearing retirement, and he was talking about where he'd go after retiring.
I asked him what foreign country he'd retire to if he could. He said Norway.
I asked him why Norway.
He said it's because the gov. does so much for its citizens.
I then asked him if that's where's he going when he retires.
He said no.
I, puzzled, asked him why not if Norway is so great.
He said because the cost of living is  too expensive.
I, puzzled, responded by asking him why it was so great then.
He said, with a little exasperation, because they do so much for their citizens.
I said, but if it's too expensive, why is it so great.
He angrily stormed off leaving me without an answer.

[sneakypete]

But that wouldn't necessarily make a healthy person's life more interesting. He or she would still have to do things to make life interesting. Machines can't perform that function very well if at all.

@goatprairie

The ONLY thing that can make your life more interesting is your mind,and by extension,your imagination. Everything else is just a "tool".

With one possible exception. The "right" woman.

 Or maybe it's the "wrong" woman? This is a subject that is SOOOO confusing.

[sneakypete]

The "wrong" people were in charge back then.  This time it will be different because we have the giant intellects of people like Sanders.

Or something.

@Cyber Liberty

Not to mention people like Slow Joe,Fauxahantus,anybody named Bush or Kennedy,anyone who is a Tan Klan official,any elected Dim official and all their voters,most "public servants" who exist to only serve themselves,the entire ANTIFA crowd,etc,etc,etc.

Not much chance of Sanders being lonely.

[Hoodat]

Fast Times At Socialist High

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.