Author Topic: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried  (Read 19165 times)

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Online catfish1957

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #150 on: March 11, 2020, 06:11:38 pm »
@catfish1957

Sending factory jobs,jobs normally worked by people with no education,not much in the way of critical thinking ability who are mostly human drones,while sitting at home and earning dividends from stock profits does not lead to anything but revolution. Even if as a nation you are pulling in enough in sales to other nations to keep the newly unemployed factory workers living in public housing as some sort of "retired pets",it is NOT a long-term solution. Younger people with nothing but time on their hands and nothing productive to do will eventually get bored enough to create their own excitement.

What happens when there are more of them than there are productive people?

@sneakypete

When we hit that tipping point?

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #151 on: March 11, 2020, 06:22:50 pm »
It's expensive because government subsidy drives up the price.  Get rid of government involvement, and prices will go down.  And Bernie has said repeatedly that he wants to eliminate college debt.  Contrast that with Sweden:

The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.


This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.

He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right? It was my understanding that he just wants to add a public option. I don't think he wants Bill Gates to have to sit in a public clinic with the plebs.

Nope.  Unlike Scandinavia, Bernie Sanders favors government setting a minimum wage.

He favors workers making more money. I think he could be reasoned with if you were willing to consider Scandinavian style unions. You're stubbornly assuming he would never consider a better option for getting what he wants and it's kinda silly. He wants to empower the working class.

You may agree with it, but Scandinavian countries do not.

They might if they had the same problem with their banks. Hell wasn't it Iceland that actually jailed bankers? They don't tolerate the kind of banking we do. Like people on your side often say, at the end of the day we are talking about different countries and different situations.

Again, Sanders wants to ban "assault weapons".  Contrast that with Sweden where fully automatic weapons are legal.

Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?

But that's not what you asked.  Here was the question I responded to:

Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government. There are I think 5 Scandinavian countries that all have their own variations but also have a similar objective in government. You're being kind of pedantic to be honest. I was just trying to make a point that I am quite sure still stands.

See:  Elimination of private insurance, elimination of tuition lenders, takeover of energy industry, etc.

I don't think he wants to stop rich people from seeking private care. That's probably a misunderstanding. Even allowing your version of things, that is still not communism. Bernie does not want to eliminate the private sector. It would be fair to say he wants to manipulate and control it to an extent, but he doesn't want to do away with it entirely. He's not a communist. Words have meanings and if you ignore them just for the sake of political hyperbole it really impedes good and fair conversation.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #152 on: March 11, 2020, 06:26:11 pm »
This thread is running over 5 pages

You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit.  :laugh:
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Offline EdinVA

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #153 on: March 11, 2020, 06:30:40 pm »
You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit.  :laugh:

And no one got thumped..... record?

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #154 on: March 11, 2020, 06:32:13 pm »
You're welcome for my spicing things up a little bit.  :laugh:

I suppose that's one way of putting it...  :whistle:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline corbe

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #155 on: March 11, 2020, 06:36:31 pm »
   Sanders didn't leave the Primary till July in 2016 against hellary. /JS
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #156 on: March 11, 2020, 06:39:37 pm »
   Sanders didn't leave the Primary till July in 2016 against hellary. /JS

I'm pleased he has not chosen to give up all the "anybody but Biteme" folks.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline LMAO

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #157 on: March 11, 2020, 06:40:13 pm »
Bernie does believe in more  centralized control over the US economy  and the clear example is  his support for the Green New Deal

Sanders does believe, and there are countless examples of him stating such support, for the elimination of private insurance in favor of a one-size-fits-all government program. What Sanders wants for US healthcare system is a system that very few countries  have

I am not interested in what our young friend “thinks” Sanders wants. I go by Sanders record and past statements

On top of everything, none of Sanders ideas can be paid for
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #158 on: March 11, 2020, 06:46:17 pm »
It's different this time.

IOW capitalim has prevailed while socialism/communism has murdered tens of millions, but ....

It's different this time.

a few weeks ago, your associate, chosen doctor, admitted she would accept socialism.

Go back, get a refresh on your disruption bag of tricks.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline musiclady

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #159 on: March 11, 2020, 06:58:12 pm »
IOW capitalim has prevailed while socialism/communism has murdered tens of millions, but ....

It's different this time.
e
a few weeks ago, your associate, chosen doctor, admitted she would accept socialism.

Go back, get a refresh on your disruption bag of tricks.

@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.

@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.

Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.

Truth matters.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online catfish1957

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #160 on: March 11, 2020, 07:03:55 pm »
@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.

@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.

Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.

Truth matters.

Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #161 on: March 11, 2020, 07:05:32 pm »
@Dexter

Watch this and educate yourself about Sweden....


https://youtu.be/0lxD-gikpMs

They backed off of their extreme socialism of the 60's and 70's because it just plain doesn't work.

Bernie knows this, but he doesn't care, because he wants America and Americans to fail and government grifters like him to get richer and richer.

Don't be a fool, young'n.

Socialism stinks.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #162 on: March 11, 2020, 07:06:52 pm »
Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.

Quite.

He says he's here because he learns so much from us Conservatives.


Apparently not, since he's here arguing for a total failure and the complete collapse of America.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online libertybele

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #163 on: March 11, 2020, 07:15:31 pm »
@Dexter
We are decades away, or longer, from real Artificial intelligence, which is defined as the ability to reason, learn and adapt.
We are using computers which react to sensors to follow the lines in the road, for example, that is not AI...
Any true AI system will be limited by the programmers knowledge and personal biases.

Decades?  I don't think so.  AI is already performing surgeries much better than the top surgeons; cost of those surgeries are at a premium. It is predicted that AI will be able to evaluate your health and make recommendations much more rapidly and accurately than a doctor. 

As for AI being limited by the programmers knowledge; IA has already been able to teach itself to play chess -- that was 2 years ago, so AI now has the ability to reason and it is no longer dependent on the programmers knowledge.

There is not going to be anything that AI can't do except have a human child (yet).

AI could easily replace humans; the sci-fi movies of years ago, are coming true.
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Online libertybele

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #164 on: March 11, 2020, 07:21:22 pm »
@Chosen Daughter is a Conservative who doesn't support Trump.

@Dexter is a liberal who DOES support Trump.

Next time you throw a spitwad @truth_seeker, make sure your spit is telling the truth.

Truth matters.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone NOT supporting Trump.  I question @Chosen Daughter conservatism and  found it concerning that she stated (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) that she'd rather deal with socialism than have Donald Trump as president.  I don't know of any conservative who would favor socialism over keeping our Republic in tact.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:23:03 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #165 on: March 11, 2020, 07:26:10 pm »
I have absolutely no problem with anyone NOT supporting Trump.  I question @Chosen Daughter conservatism and  found it concerning that she stated (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) that she'd rather deal with socialism than have Donald Trump as president.  I don't know of any conservative who would favor socialism over keeping our Republic in tact.

I didn't read that, but I have never questioned her conservatism.  (Liking Trump does not equate with Conservatism).

I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a  thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).

But I do trust you, so I guess what I would need to see is her own clarification on the subject.

At any rate, socialism stinks.

Also, as addional thought....... saying that one would rather die in an automobile accident than die of cancer doesn't mean that one supports car crashes.  Even if @Chosen Daughter says what you said she said, it doesn't mean that she "supports" socialism.

Dexter clearly does, so they aren't in the same camp, no matter what.  truth seeker's accusation was false.

@libertybele

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:32:36 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #166 on: March 11, 2020, 07:31:49 pm »
It's different this time. Artificial intelligence will allow robots to do anything a human can do better than a human can do it, so when new productivity outlets arise it will be robots that fill the need, not people. Our tools are on the brink of outgrowing us.
It's always different, no matter when.

But the new "productivity outlets" as you call them, can and should be in environments where humans cannot work, from the raw vacuum of space to hotspots like Fukushima and Chernobyl. There are jobs to be done that humans don't want to do, or cannot.  The potential for mapping underwater sites, underground sites is extreme for small robots as well.

Replace humans? Nah.
As for AI, who is going to program it? What will it define as "efficient"?
Consider that beyond utility, not one thing on the planet, living or inert, means jack to a computer.

Trees? Plants? Animals? Computers do not have a food chain. None of that matters except for materials, and those things may be in the way of extracting them--oh, and humans, too. Some parameters of a planetary environment simply aren't necessary, and may even be detrimental. Free Oxygen only heightens opportunities for corrosion, for example. What we humans consider necessary might not factor in at all.

The concept has been explored almost ad nauseum by the science fiction community.

From a human standpoint, these machines are tools, tools which can be used to improve the 'human condition'--or eliminate it.

The real use I see for AI is to mine and utilize resources off planet, and even in parts of this planet we cannot access as humans.

Imagine, AIs mining the asteroid belt, refining ores in space, constructing entire bases and ships in that cold vacuum, without placing massive numbers of humans in peril during those operations.

But here's the catch. If you give those robots feelings, are they going to want to surrender such constructs to humans? Will they be subservient? Will they want to keep what they make? How long will it be before a semisentient machine decides it is better off running things by machines, for machines, to the exclusion of all else? (Just look at the numbers, pathetic, frail, weak, human, as they phase you out.)

Without feelings, you run into the concept that they have no loyalty to the meatbags who created them and are only in the way, a tremendous 'waste' of resources for things that can't even work in vacuum. Throw a couple of rocks and they gt those pesky humans off their mechanical backs.

We have already observed in human history that when people start acting like automatons, following a strict but flawed set of parameters (and they are always flawed, usually because of a narrow focus in their goals), that the result is death, destruction, and misery, either out of complete disregard of the effects of the process, or in some notable instances, as a result of the process. Historical attempts have been made to conduct those matters more efficiently, through the wonders of assembly line techniques, efficiency studies, and even mechanization, and the result was some of the most efficient death, destruction, and misery on the planet outside of extreme natural disasters, but hardly something we would deem 'beneficial', unless, of course we sought to eliminate entire populations. Humans being human, that also failed, with few exceptions.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #167 on: March 11, 2020, 07:40:47 pm »
I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a  thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).

That particular Member decided to pursue interests other than posting on a Forum that's openly hostile to her positions, and I'd be happy if she's not brought up again since she's not available to defend herself.  It's cowardly.

@truth_seeker
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Absalom

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #168 on: March 11, 2020, 07:48:28 pm »
What Comrade Bernie conveniently overlooks is that socialism i.e. the forced "equalization" of everybody is authoritarianism.  It is trying to pound the square peg of authoritarianism into the round hole of reality/human nature...it just doesn't fit.
What you will have is a tiny group of people at the top running things getting fat and rich like the Chavezes and the Castros and the Maos living like kings while the common people do without.
It would be great, though, to see all the Silicon Valley millionaires and billionaires who are pro-Bernie if Bernie wins. 
The look on their faces when the mob comes around to their mansions to confiscate their homes, cars, boats, planes, etc. would be priceless.
"But we voted for Bernie to help the poor and oppressed" they'll wail as the mob sends hundreds of filthy, diseased, crazy homeless into their kingly abodes and relieves them of their "unnecessary"wealthy possessions. 
EVERYBODY OWNS EVERYTHING will be the new motto of The Socialist States Of America.
"You didn't build that thing, so it's not yours...it's everybody's."
-----------------------------------
Intuitive!
Plato defined the Soul of Man, asserting it differentiated every one
for eternity; creating individuality the source of our creativity.
Socialism denies individuality, as it needs equality to control.

Online libertybele

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2020, 08:06:54 pm »
I didn't read that, but I have never questioned her conservatism.  (Liking Trump does not equate with Conservatism).

I have, however, questioned truth seeker's honesty and wonder why he brought her up here on a  thread where she hadn't posted a word. (And not in a straightforward manner).

But I do trust you, so I guess what I would need to see is her own clarification on the subject.

At any rate, socialism stinks.

Also, as addional thought....... saying that one would rather die in an automobile accident than die of cancer doesn't mean that one supports car crashes.  Even if @Chosen Daughter says what you said she said, it doesn't mean that she "supports" socialism.

Dexter clearly does, so they aren't in the same camp, no matter what.  truth seeker's accusation was false.

@libertybele

Fair enough ... she has not posted on this thread, nor is she here to defend herself.  Enough said.  Any further comments would serve no purpose other than to purposefully trash a fellow (past?) Briefer and I'm not about to do that. 

Back on topic -- I'm hoping due to Bernie's age, that this is the last time that he runs for president.  With any luck his political career will be ending.  I am concerned about AOC in 2024 though.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 08:08:14 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2020, 08:17:25 pm »
Fair enough ... she has not posted on this thread, nor is she here to defend herself.  Enough said.  Any further comments would serve no purpose other than to purposefully trash a fellow (past?) Briefer and I'm not about to do that. 

Back on topic -- I'm hoping due to Bernie's age, that this is the last time that he runs for president.  With any luck his political career will be ending.  I am concerned about AOC in 2024 though.

Maybe I'm still a cockeyed optimist, but I don't think AOC has staying power.  She's a flash in the pan, IMO, and too airheaded to get any traction on the national scene.

But I think you're right about Bernie..... he's too old and sick to do this again.

I'm cautiously optimistic, too, that Americans (even Democrats, some of whom I've talked with), think that socialism is a bad idea and that Bernie would be bad for America.

I know the younger generation has been told that capitalism is bad and socialism is good (witness our naive friend Dexter here), but it's going to be a while before enough voting Americans believe it's a good idea to have a socialist President.

And hopefully, I'll be with Jesus by the time it happens!  happy77
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 08:18:27 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2020, 08:22:40 pm »
The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.

Except that Bernie is not proposing that we do what Sweden does.  He is proposing something completely different, and then sending you here to lie about it.


He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right?

The word "healthcare" was not mentioned.  My exact words were "This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.".   And yes, I am sure about that.


He favors workers making more money.

His policies will result in higher taxes which will reduce take home pay, less jobs which will result in workers not having jobs, and a lower standard of living due to government monopolizing of private industry and over-regulation.  And if you yourself were genuinely in favor of workers making more money, then you would be a huge Donald Trump supporter because under his presidency, the demand curve for labor has shifted higher than at any point in the last half century which has resulted in both higher employment and higher wages.


They might if they had the same problem with their banks.

But they don't.  So again, Scandinavia acts differently from what Bernie Sanders proposes.


Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?

Uh, no.  I never said that buying military grade weaponry was easy.  But unlike the US, it is possible.  Bernie wants to further restrict the weapons that Americans can legally own.  And again, this does not align with what Scandinavia does.


Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government.

I have already proven to you that he does not.  So please stop bringing up Scandinavia.  Because there is very little similarity between the socialism that Sanders advocates and what Scandinavian countries already practice.  In other words, just because they parrot this crap on DU does not make it true.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2020, 08:32:31 pm »
Yep, Dexter's admiration for Bernie is quite telling.

As is his willingness to push this fake Scandinavia propaganda.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online berdie

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2020, 08:53:05 pm »
The Swedish government gets involved in college. Also Sweden is one Scandinavian nation. There is variation among them. Bernie just wants us to look to them as an example and do the best we can to follow.


He wants to remove an individual's ability to seek private healthcare? Are you sure you're getting that right? It was my understanding that he just wants to add a public option. I don't think he wants Bill Gates to have to sit in a public clinic with the plebs.

He favors workers making more money. I think he could be reasoned with if you were willing to consider Scandinavian style unions. You're stubbornly assuming he would never consider a better option for getting what he wants and it's kinda silly. He wants to empower the working class.

They might if they had the same problem with their banks. Hell wasn't it Iceland that actually jailed bankers? They don't tolerate the kind of banking we do. Like people on your side often say, at the end of the day we are talking about different countries and different situations.

Firearms are much more heavily regulated in Scandinavian countries and I already said I don't agree with his views here. You're saying one can easily buy military grade weaponry throughout Scandinavia?

Bernie stands for Scandinavian style government. There are I think 5 Scandinavian countries that all have their own variations but also have a similar objective in government. You're being kind of pedantic to be honest. I was just trying to make a point that I am quite sure still stands.

I don't think he wants to stop rich people from seeking private care. That's probably a misunderstanding. Even allowing your version of things, that is still not communism. Bernie does not want to eliminate the private sector. It would be fair to say he wants to manipulate and control it to an extent, but he doesn't want to do away with it entirely. He's not a communist. Words have meanings and if you ignore them just for the sake of political hyperbole it really impedes good and fair conversation.





Just wondering @Dexter in previous posts you were moving to Sweden. Have you done that yet?

Online goatprairie

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Re: Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2020, 09:40:13 pm »
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Intuitive!
Plato defined the Soul of Man, asserting it differentiated every one
for eternity; creating individuality the source of our creativity.
Socialism denies, as it needs equality to control.
Socialism also infantilizes people. 
Some years ago I read  a story about emigres to Israel. The immigrants came from many countries and some from the ex Soviet Union.
The ones who came from the SU had the hardest time adjusting to a free society where you were asked to do things for yourself.
In the SU the state did almost everything for the people.  It destroyed their initiative, the yearning to do things for themselves.