Bernie: Real Socialism Has Never Been Tried

[Dexter]

What Sanders wants for US healthcare system is a system that very few countries  have

Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.

He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.

[Dexter]

Decades?  I don't think so.  AI is already performing surgeries much better than the top surgeons; cost of those surgeries are at a premium. It is predicted that AI will be able to evaluate your health and make recommendations much more rapidly and accurately than a doctor. 

As for AI being limited by the programmers knowledge; IA has already been able to teach itself to play chess -- that was 2 years ago, so AI now has the ability to reason and it is no longer dependent on the programmers knowledge.

There is not going to be anything that AI can't do except have a human child (yet).

AI could easily replace humans; the sci-fi movies of years ago, are coming true.

These days AI is teaching itself to outplay professional gamers at live action games they have dedicated their lives to.

Good post.

[roamer_1]

In all fairness, those spending measures originated in the House. The place to gut those was the Senate, and then let the Democrats whine about Republicans shutting down the Government. Unfortunately, in one of those omnibus deals, things get woven in that will hurt real people who don't deserve to be hurt (troops, dependents, veterans, to name a few). It's a vile form of blackmail the Democrats have used, and unfortunately, the MSM will beat the drum and point the fickle finger of fate at the wrong people.

Some things Trump has done have cut red tape, unfortunately, those edicts only last as long as no one reverses them with an E.O.
The greatest failures remain in the Congress, and that especially lies with the GOP when they had both houses..

I agree with you for the most part @Smokin Joe ... But no, the buck stops right at the top. He signed every dang one of those omnibus bills without a whimper. That's his fault, and no one elses.

[Dexter]

Dexter clearly does

It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.

[LMAO]

Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.

He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.

 I know I’m wasting my time posting this but this is just one example

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/

What you’re doing is taking his unpalatable positions and trying to mold them into something that you think is more tolerable  and trying to sell that to the rest of us

The rest of us are simply going by his own words and stated positions. Which should be done with everybody run for office. We give you examples of Sanders positions that are uncomfortable to you and you turn into “what I think he really meant....”

[Dexter]

It's always different, no matter when.

But the new "productivity outlets" as you call them, can and should be in environments where humans cannot work, from the raw vacuum of space to hotspots like Fukushima and Chernobyl. There are jobs to be done that humans don't want to do, or cannot.  The potential for mapping underwater sites, underground sites is extreme for small robots as well.

Replace humans? Nah.
As for AI, who is going to program it? What will it define as "efficient"?
Consider that beyond utility, not one thing on the planet, living or inert, means jack to a computer.

Trees? Plants? Animals? Computers do not have a food chain. None of that matters except for materials, and those things may be in the way of extracting them--oh, and humans, too. Some parameters of a planetary environment simply aren't necessary, and may even be detrimental. Free Oxygen only heightens opportunities for corrosion, for example. What we humans consider necessary might not factor in at all.

The concept has been explored almost ad nauseum by the science fiction community.

From a human standpoint, these machines are tools, tools which can be used to improve the 'human condition'--or eliminate it.

The real use I see for AI is to mine and utilize resources off planet, and even in parts of this planet we cannot access as humans.

Imagine, AIs mining the asteroid belt, refining ores in space, constructing entire bases and ships in that cold vacuum, without placing massive numbers of humans in peril during those operations.

But here's the catch. If you give those robots feelings, are they going to want to surrender such constructs to humans? Will they be subservient? Will they want to keep what they make? How long will it be before a semisentient machine decides it is better off running things by machines, for machines, to the exclusion of all else? (Just look at the numbers, pathetic, frail, weak, human, as they phase you out.)

Without feelings, you run into the concept that they have no loyalty to the meatbags who created them and are only in the way, a tremendous 'waste' of resources for things that can't even work in vacuum. Throw a couple of rocks and they gt those pesky humans off their mechanical backs.

We have already observed in human history that when people start acting like automatons, following a strict but flawed set of parameters (and they are always flawed, usually because of a narrow focus in their goals), that the result is death, destruction, and misery, either out of complete disregard of the effects of the process, or in some notable instances, as a result of the process. Historical attempts have been made to conduct those matters more efficiently, through the wonders of assembly line techniques, efficiency studies, and even mechanization, and the result was some of the most efficient death, destruction, and misery on the planet outside of extreme natural disasters, but hardly something we would deem 'beneficial', unless, of course we sought to eliminate entire populations. Humans being human, that also failed, with few exceptions.

Even if AI and automation only eats up 95% of production we still have a very serious problem. If we manage to create AI that's capable of original thought it's going to change the world overnight. Imagine an AI that's capable of doing 10,000 years of human intellectual work over the weekend. What kind of ramifications will that have on our way of life? I wouldn't be surprised if AI is programming, repairing and upgrading itself without our help.

[musiclady]

It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.

No. "We" aren't.

What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.

And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.

[Cyber Liberty]

It's kind of complicated because we're having difficulty coming to an agreement on what socialism actually is/isn't.

It's not rocket science, and people on TBR are in agreement on what Socialism is.  It's what you are advocating, coming in here singing the praises of Bernie Sanders.  So cut the cute crap.

How's the weather down there by the equator, BTW?  I could have sworn you said you were moving to Sweden?

[libertybele]

But he's using big government, and executive orders to roll back those policies.  Exchanging one big government ideology with another.....

Is he not?

Yes, he has used e.o. to rollback big government policies. If I recall a lot of them had to do with climate change and EPA regulations.  I'm looking at it from a standpoint of decreasing Big Brother holding its thumb over us and Trump releasing some of that hold. That to me is him decreasing big government.

[Cyber Liberty]

No. "We" aren't.

What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.

And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.

You stole the words from my mouth.  That's unsanitary!   

[LMAO]

No. "We" aren't.

What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.

And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.

What I find interesting regarding Sanders was at the time he was heaping praise on totalitarian socialist dictators, was about the time Sweden was into it’s now ill fated experiment into socialism yet it appears his most vigorous praise was for the dictators

[LMAO]

It's not rocket science, and people on TBR are in agreement on what Socialism is.  It's what you are advocating, coming in here singing the praises of Bernie Sanders.  So cut the cute crap.

How's the weather down there by the equator, BTW?  I could have sworn you said you were moving to Sweden?

Bernie Sanders once praised the food lines in socialist countries as a sign of progress and not as a result of rationing due to shortages caused by the very economic policies he embraces

[roamer_1]

Yes, he has used e.o. to rollback big government policies. If I recall a lot of them had to do with climate change and EPA regulations.  I'm looking at it from a standpoint of decreasing Big Brother holding its thumb over us and Trump releasing some of that hold. That to me is him decreasing big government.

That much is true if you care to count it. I see it as nibbling enough around the edges to make the claim.

[Dexter]

I know I’m wasting my time posting this but this is just one example

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/private-insurance/

What you’re doing is taking his unpalatable positions and trying to mold them into something that you think is more tolerable  and trying to sell that to the rest of us

The rest of us are simply going by his own words and stated positions. Which should be done with everybody run for office. We give you examples of Sanders positions that are uncomfortable to you and you turn into “what I think he really meant....”

From the very top of your link.

"Some current Medicare-for-all proposals, including those from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) virtually eliminate private insurance by providing basic coverage for prescriptions, medical, vision, dental and mental health care. Private insurance would exist only for supplemental care outside of these basic provisions."

The public options would virtually eliminate the need for private insurance.

His plan would not eliminate private healthcare. It wouldn't entirely eliminate private insurance either.

[Hoodat]

Can you show me some examples of Bernie saying he wants to outlaw private care rather than just introduce a public option that will largely eliminate the need for private insurance? He had been advocating for universal healthcare for decades before he started talking medicare for all because the electorate finds that more palatable for some reason.

He does not want to ban/outlaw private clinics and doctors. That's ridiculous.

Yet again, Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.  Here he is in his own words:


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Sanders:  "What people should understand is that what “Medicare for All” does is it eliminates your private health insurance premiums. You’re not going to be paying that. You’re not going to be paying co-payments, you’re not going to paying deductibles. You’re going to be seeing your prescription drugs’ cost, in my view, come down by 50 percent. Will you be paying more in taxes? Yes, you will."

So in place of private insurance, you will simply be paying those premiums to the government in the form of higher taxes.

[Hoodat]

Again:

Sanders: 'You're damn right' health insurance companies should be eliminated

By Michael Burke - 03/27/19 11:49 AM EDT

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who is seeking the Democratic nomination for president in 2020, late Tuesday reiterated his call for the elimination of private health insurance companies and moving to a single-payer, "Medicare for all" system of health care.

"You're damn right," Sanders wrote in a tweet in response to a Republican National Committee (RNC) Research tweet pointing out that he called for eliminating private health insurance during an interview earlier in the day.

In that MSNBC interview, Sanders said the "current system is incredibly dysfunctional and wasteful" and said universal health care can't be achieved "unless you get rid of the insurance companies."

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/436033-sanders-youre-damn-right-health-insurance-companies-should-be-eliminated

[musiclady]

You stole the words from my mouth.  That's unsanitary!   

Just spray some Lysol down your throat and you’ll be fine.

Probably will save you from COVID -19 too! 

[LMAO]

Yet again, Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.  Here he is in his own words:


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Sanders:  "What people should understand is that what “Medicare for All” does is it eliminates your private health insurance premiums. You’re not going to be paying that. You’re not going to be paying co-payments, you’re not going to paying deductibles. You’re going to be seeing your prescription drugs’ cost, in my view, come down by 50 percent. Will you be paying more in taxes? Yes, you will."

So in place of private insurance, you will simply be paying those premiums to the government in the form of higher taxes.

I think we’re wasting our time with this one. You show him an example, I show him an example, other people show him example and he still chooses to deny. You’re just not gonna change his mind. Even linking him to Bernie Sanders own words doesn’t do it.

 Our young friend doesn’t seem to realize that we’re using Bernie Sanders own words and political positions against him.  None of us are making up anything


Universal healthcare is popular until people realize that it’s not going to be “free”

This is what happened to HillaryCare in the 90’s and why 80% of Colorado citizens voted no in 2016

[Dexter]

Except that Bernie is not proposing that we do what Sweden does.  He is proposing something completely different, and then sending you here to lie about it.

I'm pretty sure Germany is doing it in a very similar way. They might even be taking it further, because they recognize that investing in the education of young people is good for the economy. Are they socialist/communist?

The word "healthcare" was not mentioned.  My exact words were "This does not change the fact that Bernie Sanders wants to eliminate private insurance.".   And yes, I am sure about that.

He wants to largely eliminate the need for private insurance by introducing public options. Private insurance and healthcare would still exist for those that want it.

His policies will result in higher taxes which will reduce take home pay, less jobs which will result in workers not having jobs, and a lower standard of living due to government monopolizing of private industry and over-regulation.  And if you yourself were genuinely in favor of workers making more money, then you would be a huge Donald Trump supporter because under his presidency, the demand curve for labor has shifted higher than at any point in the last half century which has resulted in both higher employment and higher wages.

I am a huge Donald Trump supporter. I recognize that none of this is close to possible if we open the door to anybody that manages to make it to our border. I probably have the most extreme immigration views of anybody on this forum.

But they don't.  So again, Scandinavia acts differently from what Bernie Sanders proposes.

Only because they don't have the same problem due to already having their bankers on a much shorter leash, but whatever.

Uh, no.  I never said that buying military grade weaponry was easy.  But unlike the US, it is possible.  Bernie wants to further restrict the weapons that Americans can legally own.  And again, this does not align with what Scandinavia does.

"It is illegal for a civilian in Sweden to carry a firearm, unless for a specific, legal purpose;such as hunting or attending shooting ranges. To transport firearms, there are rules to adhere to;the general regulations are that the gun must be unloaded, hidden and transported in a safe and secure way under supervision."

https://www.sweden.org.za/gun-laws-in-sweden.html

I am having a hard time finding resources about assault rifles specifically and what contexts they are tolerated in. Could you help me out?

I have already proven to you that he does not. 

It seems an impasse has been reached.

[libertybele]

From the very top of your link.

"Some current Medicare-for-all proposals, including those from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) virtually eliminate private insurance by providing basic coverage for prescriptions, medical, vision, dental and mental health care. Private insurance would exist only for supplemental care outside of these basic provisions."

The public options would virtually eliminate the need for private insurance.

His plan would not eliminate private healthcare. It wouldn't entirely eliminate private insurance either.

Pure socialism.  Why, oh why would I want to give up my private insurance?  We pay dearly for our health insurance every month in order to receive the quality of care that we are receiving without paying higher out of pocket expenses.  I can get into see my doctor either the same day or next day when I need him. With the health issues I have, I don't want to have to wait months to see him as is the case of  EVERY person that I have ever talked to that has been on a socialized medicine plan in another country.  One couple I know specifically came from Canada to live in the U.S. because of our health care. 

Name one socialist country today that is thriving.  Socialism doesn't work period. It hasn't worked in the past and sure as heck isn't going to work in the future.

Besides, as long as Trump is President there will be NO socialism!  Amen Mr. President, Amen!

[musiclady]

What I find interesting regarding Sanders was at the time he was heaping praise on totalitarian socialist dictators, was about the time Sweden was into it’s now ill fated experiment into socialism yet it appears his most vigorous praise was for the dictators

Oh! That is an EXCELLENT point, @LMAO !!   

Bernie is a long time proponent of Soviet socialism, not the Scandinavian hybrid he now claims to support.

Kudos for pointing that out for deluded @Dexter .

[Dexter]

I don't think we have to worry anymore about Bernie. He's still hanging on and has foolishly vowed to stay in the race, but there is no way he's going to be the nominee. I think age will prevent him from running in 2024; he'll be 82.  I think Uncle Joe's nomination was planned from the beginning anyways.

You're absolutely right. It's more than likely that Bernie will never be the president.

[libertybele]

You're absolutely right. It's more than likely that Bernie will never be the president.

Thank God! 

[LMAO]

This reminds me of a conversation I had fairly recently with another Bernie backer who said I was lying that Bernie ever said that food lines in socialist countries was a good thing.  Even showing Bernie himself saying it didn’t convince him.

It’s incredible the human minds ability to deny the undeniable

[Dexter]

No. "We" aren't.

What you are supporting here is full blown socialism.

And socialism unchecked (which it almost always is) leads to the destruction of societies and to death.

I don't think full blown socialism is possible yet. I think the writing is on the wall, though.