The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD

[Sanguine]

@Jazzhead

So let's say a radical Muslim - a citizen born in this country -- owns legally purchased firearms, starts talking on social media about how he is getting ready to kill infidels, and is amassing weapons and ammo to do so.  Again, all weapons and ammo are legally owned.  Oh yeah, and lets add to it that his sister has called the police, says that her brother is mentally ill and off his meds, and that she's afraid he's going to do something violent.

Do we have to station cops around his house and tail him 24/7 indefinitely in the event that this is the day he decides to follow through on his threats?  Or do we just wait until he starts shooting people to do something about him having guns and ammo?

Because those are the kind of questions a Republican candidate is going to be asked if he states a blanket opposition to any red flag law.

As it currently stands, he would get a 72 hour stay in the local psych ward and be evaluated and medicated. 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

There is existing law to remove people from society with due process for substantiated threats to others.  If it is planned mass murder, that fits terrorism statues.

Which law is that?

Most of those laws have conspiracy as an element, which means multiple people must be involved.  They also require that a predicate act, which cannot simply be statement of intent, be committed.  That doesn't help in a lot of scenarios.

I'll toss out another.  Woman breaks up with boyfriend, who calls her and tells her that he's going to come over there and shoot her.  She has an actual recording of his voice saying that so it's not just his word against hers.  To me personally, that should trigger the ability to red flag the dude, have a hearing, and deprive him of firearms for a 14 or 30 day cooling-off period.  If you don't want to lose your guns, don't directly threaten to kill someone with them.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

As it currently stands, he would get a 72 hour stay in the local psych ward and be evaluated and medicated.

Remove the psych element -- he's just a pissed-off, radicalized, homegrown Islamist.

[Sanguine]

Remove the psych element -- he's just a pissed-off, radicalized, homegrown Islamist.

I was coming back to add, he should be prosecuted for making terroristic threats.  The two possibilities, 72 hour hold and prosecution, should take care of most situations.  Given that there are some people, very rare luckily, who are going to do what they are going to do regardless of anything we can do to prevent them. 

@Maj. Bill Martin

[thackney]

Which law is that?

Most of those laws have conspiracy as an element, which means multiple people must be involved.  They also require that a predicate act, which cannot simply be statement of intent, be committed.  That doesn't help in a lot of scenarios.

The Patriot Act can be applied to a single person.

I'll toss out another.  Woman breaks up with boyfriend, who calls her and tells her that he's going to come over there and shoot her.  She has an actual recording of his voice saying that so it's not just his word against hers.  To me personally, that should trigger the ability to red flag the dude, have a hearing, and deprive him of firearms for a 14 or 30 day cooling-off period.  If you don't want to lose your guns, don't directly threaten to kill someone with them.

If she doesn't have the recording, as most won't?

Now make the situation where he is falsifying her threats and gets her firearm removed that was her only real protection against him.

[roamer_1]

Well, you hit on the problem. People who live in the people hives like NYC and other major urban areas just can't wrap their heads around life in a rural environment. But they think they should be able to dictate how we live in what to them is as alien as another planet.

It is small wonder that their "solutions" for the problems had by people living in their environment just don't make one damned bit of sense where we are.

That's right Joe. Here we are swimming in guns - More dang guns per square inch, than anywhere on the planet. And we've got police response times that can be an hour or more... There ain't no appreciable law out here, once you get out of town.

According to their insanity, here more than anywhere there should be gun problems... But there's not. No the problems are all in their gun-free sh*thole cities. Why? Because only the criminals have guns.

But an analog was found in the 60s by John B Calhoun, who worked at NIMH.

That is one heck of an analog - I have long declared cities mess folks up... I thought maybe it was the water... 

[roamer_1]

Just because a law won't stop everything doesn't mean that a reasonable law shouldn't be available to stop the ones that could be stopped. 

He who governs least, governs best. What have your 'gun-free zone' laws stopped? most of these mass shootings are committed in metro areas where gun laws are absolutely draconian... What have those laws stopped? Heck, I have heard there are laws preventing you from even transporting a gun... What has that stopped?

Y'all have laws falling out of your *sses that don't stop a damn thing. And you wish to impose them on us too.

It boggles my mind that you cannot see that.

[Bigun]

Raising a Black Flag Against Red Flag Laws

https://townhall.com/columnists/sheriffdavidclarkeret/2019/08/12/raising-a-black-flag-against-red-flag-laws-n2551547

[Jazzhead]

Raising a Black Flag Against Red Flag Laws

https://townhall.com/columnists/sheriffdavidclarkeret/2019/08/12/raising-a-black-flag-against-red-flag-laws-n2551547

The usual paranoid bullshit

[Bigun]

The usual paranoid bullshit

Him or you?

[aligncare]

Doesn't make any sense to me either.  Especially since there were some upthread who said that taking someone's guns away in part because of statements they made was a violation of the First Amendment.  Obviously, the exact same would be true for throwing him in jail for the making of those statements as well.

Maybe that’s why some people call gun owners and enthusiasts, gun nuts. To non gun owners, they seem almost to worship unfettered access to guns, above every consideration of a gun’s potential—in the wrong hands—to visit unspeakable carnage on innocent people at school, at work or at a busy market.

The gun is a tool. I have lots of tools. I use my tools. I like my tools. But, they’re just tools. A gun however, is a tool that comes with a great responsibility and an even greater potential for harm—again, if in the wrong hands.

A home grown Islamic terrorist, someone on the edge of sanity, a disgruntled, agitated or threatening employee, an 18-year-old acting out violently, an anarchist or subversive advocating violent overthrow of the government; If these types of people own guns, there should be a codified, due-process way to legally challenge that ownership.

[roamer_1]

A home grown Islamic terrorist, someone on the edge of sanity, a disgruntled, agitated or threatening employee, an 18-year-old acting out violently, an anarchist or subversive advocating violent overthrow of the government; If these types of people own guns, there should be a codified, due-process way to legally challenge that ownership.

There is - Mental disorder or felony - either one already means no legal gun ownership... Not that it stops anyone.

[Sanguine]

Maybe that’s why some people call gun owners and enthusiasts, gun nuts. To non gun owners, they seem almost to worship unfettered access to guns, above every consideration of a gun’s potential—in the wrong hands—to visit unspeakable carnage on innocent people at school, at work or at a busy market.

The gun is a tool. I have lots of tools. I use my tools. I like my tools. But, they’re just tools. A gun however, is a tool that comes with a great responsibility and an even greater potential for harm—again, if in the wrong hands.

A home grown Islamic terrorist, someone on the edge of sanity, a disgruntled, agitated or threatening employee, an 18-year-old acting out violently, an anarchist or subversive advocating violent overthrow of the government; If these types of people own guns, there should be a codified, due-process way to legally challenge that ownership.

Then start making the case for an amendment because that's what it's going to take.

[txradioguy]

Maybe that’s why some people call gun owners and enthusiasts, gun nuts. To non gun owners, they seem almost to worship unfettered access to guns, above every consideration of a gun’s potential—in the wrong hands—to visit unspeakable carnage on innocent people at school, at work or at a busy market.

The gun is a tool. I have lots of tools. I use my tools. I like my tools. But, they’re just tools. A gun however, is a tool that comes with a great responsibility and an even greater potential for harm—again, if in the wrong hands.

A gun is also the only tool you have that's protected by an Amendment in the Constitution.

A home grown Islamic terrorist, someone on the edge of sanity, a disgruntled, agitated or threatening employee, an 18-year-old acting out violently, an anarchist or subversive advocating violent overthrow of the government; If these types of people own guns, there should be a codified, due-process way to legally challenge that ownership.

There's already laws on the books to handle this.  What good will a new one do?

[verga]

Fair question.

The Baker Act - which permits the voluntary and involuntary temporary commitment of someone who is mentally incompetent --  is only the law in Florida, so you'd have to make a national version.  Assuming you did that, there are two problems:

Every state has a version of this law. They fall under the heading of voluntary/ involuntary commitment laws.
https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/national-studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The Patriot Act can be applied to a single person.

There is no provision of the Patriot Act that would permit arrest under those circumstances, and I've read the whole thing.  There are some state laws that would permit prosecution if you made a threat for the purpose of scaring/intimidating people.  But they don't do any good if the threat or evidence of dangerousness wasn't made public, and wasn't for the purpose of intimidation.  For example, if it was posted to an arabic-only website and didn't intimidate other citizens, no prosecution is possible.

If she doesn't have the recording, as most won't?

Then you can't take his weapon.  Pretty simple.

Now make the situation where he is falsifying her threats and gets her firearm removed that was her only real protection against him.

That's the point of ensuring that the law is drafted correctly regarding the burden of proof and required evidentiary standards.

[thackney]

The usual paranoid bullshit

This law would allow the government to violate our Fourteenth Amendment due process rights along with Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights to the Constitution and confiscate our property (guns) on an unsubstantiated citizen complaint about something a person might do. That is a lower standard than the reasonable suspicion standard we allow police to use. That is an “anything is possible” standard. Red Flag Laws will not stop the next mass shooting just like banning the Confederate Flag after Charleston did not nor did banning bump stocks after the Las Vegas massacre.

[verga]

Yeah... He seemed shocked when I told him I bought most of my guns off the back of a truck... Like there is something wrong with that. 

You mean there are other places to purchase firearms? Ya learn something new every day.

[rustynail]

[verga]

You would think so, but remember most teachers are a product of the progressive education system.  I'm guessing it would be very difficult to find a conservative teacher under 50-60 years old.

Here in my district, in VA. we have quite a few. Our county is very rural with 2 cities. I can only think of about 5 teachers in my school that would qualify as liberal.

[roamer_1]

You mean there are other places to purchase firearms? Ya learn something new every day.

It ain't quite all that bad... I think two of my rifles were bought over the counter... Maybe three... I really don't remember. But as a general rule, I try pretty hard to buy things broken and fix em... That's how redneck boys get nice things. So it should be no surprise that I dwell in private sales. If it weren't flatly for the liberty angle, I would be doing it anyway, naturally... Like with everything else... You won't find me buying much of anything new, when you can find used in near new condition for a tenth of the cost. 

[Sanguine]

Here in my district, in VA. we have quite a few. Our county is very rural with 2 cities. I can only think of about 5 teachers in my school that would qualify as liberal.

I can't tell you how rare that is.  I live in a very rural Texas area and I taught in a rural Texas area.  Again, very, very few non-leftist indoctrinated teachers in both areas.

[Bigun]

I can't tell you how rare that is.  I live in a very rural Texas area and I taught in a rural Texas area.  Again, very, very few non-leftist indoctrinated teachers in both areas.

All products of Colleges of Education no doubt!

[verga]

It's extraordinarily difficult.  We now have so many homeless precisely because involuntary commitment is so legally difficult.  And again, remove the mental illness component of it if you like -- he's just a very militant convert to Islam who is posting on social media about his desire to kill a bunch of infidels.

I have direct personal experience with it. It takes the signature of a physician and a concerned person (generally a relative). Takes about 2 hours start to finish.

[austingirl]

IMHO the most accurate versions of history being taught these days are to kids that are home schooled.  Something the Liberals absolutely hate.

@txradioguy
I agree and I think those kids will be our future conservative leaders.

[Bigun]

@txradioguy
I agree and I think those kids will be our future conservative leaders.

If there are to be any conservative leaders in our future they will almost certainly come with that kind of background @austingirl.

[Sanguine]

I have direct personal experience with it. It takes the signature of a physician and a concerned person (generally a relative). Takes about 2 hours start to finish.

Isn't the criteria "a threat to self or others"? 

[roamer_1]

I can't tell you how rare that is.  I live in a very rural Texas area and I taught in a rural Texas area.  Again, very, very few non-leftist indoctrinated teachers in both areas.

That's right - even here.

Brings to mind the day they had my daughter on a prayer rug bowing toward Mecca... Where Christian prayer is banned, mind you.

That was a red letter day... Me leaning over that principal's desk, pokin my finger in his chest... Why I said things right there that would make @Jazzhead  and @Maj. Bill Martin wanna take all my guns, I'll tell you what!

[txradioguy]

@txradioguy
I agree and I think those kids will be our future conservative leaders.

@austingirl

I sure hope they are.  We're not likely to find them coming from big city government run education centers.

[Bigun]

@austingirl

I sure hope they are.  We're not likely to find them coming from big city government run education indoctrination centers.

Fixed it for you @txradioguy.

[txradioguy]

Fixed it for you @txradioguy.

 

[thackney]

@austingirl

I sure hope they are.  We're not likely to find them coming from big city government run education centers.

I think there are many, including myself, who have raised their children to think for themselves.  I believe my children are well prepared to deal with others with different opinions, having been exposed to that environment in public schools.

A big mistake in my opinion, is to send children anywhere and not be involved in their lives.  Don't take any school or team or group for granted that they will match your personal beliefs.  Know what others tell your children and teach them to evaluate what they are told, not to only soak it in without thought.

They are well prepared as they move forward exposed to all ideas and still retain who they are.

And I don't pretend they think exactly as I do.  But they do think for themselves.

[txradioguy]

I think there are many, including myself, who have raised their children to think for themselves.  I believe my children are well prepared to deal with others with different opinions, having been exposed to that environment in public schools.

A big mistake in my opinion, is to send children anywhere and not be involved in their lives.  Don't take any school or team or group for granted that they will match your personal beliefs.  Know what others tell your children and teach them to evaluate what they are told, not to only soak it in without thought.

They are well prepared as they move forward exposed to all ideas and still retain who they are.

And I don't pretend they think exactly as I do.  But they do think for themselves.

@thackney I think a lot of us raised our kids in just that manner.  I just hope enough of us did to blunt what's being done to kids in public schools who don't have parents that took the same interest that you and I did.

[Bigun]

@thackney I think a lot of us raised our kids in just that manner.  I just hope enough of us did to blunt what's being done to kids in public schools who don't have parents that took the same interest that you and I did.

It is my opinion that for every @thackney and @txradioguy there are a hundred who have children who only know what they have been indoctrinated to believe. I sincerely hope to be proven wrong about that.

[verga]

That's the point of ensuring that the law is drafted correctly regarding the burden of proof and required evidentiary standards.

That is a very good theory, but what is to prevent a different administration from modifying it or some judge from interpreting it differently.
Sorry NO SALE.

[txradioguy]

It is my opinion that for every @thackney and @txradioguy there are a hundred who have children who only know what they have been indoctrinated to believe. I sincerely hope to be proven wrong about that.

I hope you are too.

[thackney]

@thackney I think a lot of us raised our kids in just that manner.  I just hope enough of us did to blunt what's being done to kids in public schools who don't have parents that took the same interest that you and I did.

By the time they were a Sophomore in High School, it was obvious to them they were different than most.  They were already into leadership positions in whatever they joined.  And they realized most of their classmates were too lazy and unengaged to be more than cattle.  Cattle have their purpose and we would be less without them.  But they learned not to depend on them any more than they would cattle.

Honestly, I believe they were better for being in public school.  They are going to have to deal with those folks for the rest of their lives.  Learning how to lead them and when to avoid them are worthwhile skills in their lives.

Honestly, I worry homeschool only children may end up expecting far too much from the general public.

[verga]

Isn't the criteria "a threat to self or others"?

All I had to do was describe their actions over the past 24 hours to the physician, he talked to that person for all of 5-10 minutes. Transfer to the psych ward and they were confined in about 2 hours time total. One of the hardest things I ever had to do, but they finally got the proper diagnosis and the meds they needed. That person has not had an episode in over 2 years and is living a full and happy life now (knock on wood).

[Sanguine]

All I had to do was describe their actions over the past 24 hours to the physician, he talked to that person for all of 5-10 minutes. Transfer to the psych ward and they were confined in about 2 hours time total. One of the hardest things I ever had to do, but they finally got the proper diagnosis and the meds they needed. That person has not had an episode in over 2 years and is living a full and happy life now (knock on wood).

There you go. 

And, bless you for being a good relative.

[roamer_1]

Maybe that’s why some people call gun owners and enthusiasts, gun nuts. To non gun owners, they seem almost to worship unfettered access to guns [...]

And by the way, @aligncare , it ain't about the guns. It's about the Liberty. I think you will find most 'gun owners and enthusiasts' to be just as vociferous in their defense of speech, or any other BOR or Constitutional principle.

[Bigun]

And by the way, @aligncare , it ain't about the guns. It's about the Liberty. I think you will find most 'gun owners and enthusiasts' to be just as vociferous in their defense of speech, or any other BOR or Constitutional principle.

Damned right!  Even when it makes them very unpopular in some circles.

[EdJames]

Good, hopefully his stupid Tweet will sink this statist ship that he is trying to launch while it is still docked!!

[EdJames]

And by the way, @aligncare , it ain't about the guns. It's about the Liberty. I think you will find most 'gun owners and enthusiasts' to be just as vociferous in their defense of speech, or any other BOR or Constitutional principle.

Another one that obviously didn't bother to watch the video....

We've now seen the political expediency trolling run another thread into the ground...

We had a dumpster file going for that purpose and it got shitcanned over here: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,371119.0.html

 

[txradioguy]

By the time they were a Sophomore in High School, it was obvious to them they were different than most.  They were already into leadership positions in whatever they joined.  And they realized most of their classmates were too lazy and unengaged to be more than cattle.  Cattle have their purpose and we would be less without them.  But they learned not to depend on them any more than they would cattle.

Honestly, I believe they were better for being in public school.  They are going to have to deal with those folks for the rest of their lives.  Learning how to lead them and when to avoid them are worthwhile skills in their lives.

Honestly, I worry homeschool only children may end up expecting far too much from the general public.

If folks here think I'm stubborn about arguing a point and not letting go of my belief in what I'm saying they need to meet my daughter...she's me on steroids LOL!

Both of my kids are very independent thinkers and know bullsh*t when they see it.  Wouldn't want them any other way.

[txradioguy]

Good, hopefully his stupid Tweet will sink this statist ship that he is trying to launch while it is still docked!!

@EdJames

Don't bet on it...Ivanka is out there doing arm twisting as we speak.

[EdJames]

@EdJames

Don't bet on it...Ivanka is out there doing arm twisting as we speak.

Sadly I've seen that....

[Bigun]

Another one that obviously didn't bother to watch the video....

We've now seen the political expediency trolling run another thread into the ground...

We had a dumpster file going for that purpose and it got shitcanned over here: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,371119.0.html

 

Yep!  Seems to be the norm here after a few pages.

[Sighlass]

No, I simply don't share your paranoia, @sneakypete .   Of course,  freedom requires citizen vigilance,  but in the context of a constitutional republic,  that vigilance is exercised by means of the vote and political action, not by acquiring arsenals so as to be prepared to kill peace officers.   

You demand we be ready to kill the king.  In America,  WE are the king.  We govern OURSELVES, with the ballot not the bullet.   You advocate the destruction of our beautiful nation.   That is not the mindset of a patriot, and that is the reason I reject your warped ideology, totally.   

I had to laugh, guess you never heard of the Battle of Athens? Where that ballot was stolen at the point of a gun (after shooting a black fellow) and only took back at the sounding of many guns (and some dynamite).

I now know why someone in their tagline makes sure not to be mistaken for you... We all say, I am not Jazzhead, I am not Jazzhead, I am not @Jazzhead 

[roamer_1]

Damned right!  Even when it makes them very unpopular in some circles.

And why I will not be moved. Not a single inch.

 

[verga]

By the time they were a Sophomore in High School, it was obvious to them they were different than most.  They were already into leadership positions in whatever they joined.  And they realized most of their classmates were too lazy and unengaged to be more than cattle.  Cattle have their purpose and we would be less without them.  But they learned not to depend on them any more than they would cattle.

Honestly, I believe they were better for being in public school.  They are going to have to deal with those folks for the rest of their lives.  Learning how to lead them and when to avoid them are worthwhile skills in their lives.

Honestly, I worry homeschool only children may end up expecting far too much from the general public.

I have taught in Urban, suburban and rural districts. I will agree with you about the urban and some of the suburban students. The vast majority of the urban ones are just occupying space. going through the motions to get by and the same is true for the about 30 percent of the Burbs kids. But in the rural districts the opposite is true. Most of them work on the family farm or a neighbors farm and know the meaning of hard work. When i worked up north it took me about a day to figure out who were the "Townies" and who were the farmers. In five years I saw maybe 2 townies on the football and wrestling teams.

Over the years I have seen quite a few students that transferred in from Home schooling situations. Some did very well on standardized tests, some did "okay" quite a few did mediocre or well in one area, but other areas were severely lacking. We had one student when I taught up north that was off the charts on reading and writing, but he could not pass a math or science test to save his life. after speaking to the parents it turned out that they only let him "read" about biology, chemistry, and physics. He did no hands on lab work at all.

Some programs are great but so much depends on the externals.

For the record I am an "All of the above" guy Whatever suits your child's ability is what you should do. If your child needs the structure and discipline and structure of a Military or parochial school go for it. If they have the drive to get through a Montessori program God bless 'em go for it. If they want to specialize in a charter school program, more power to them. I also believe that if you use something other than a public school program that you should get either a tax credit for the amount that the public school is not using or you should get some sort of tuition assistance equal to that amount.