Author Topic: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership  (Read 23594 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2019, 09:22:45 am »
Looks like some are fighting to include a literacy test for the purchase of a gun.  They have a pretty good shot at winning this one. 

 

:thumbsup:

@Right_in_Virginia

Why? What does literacy have to do with it?  Do you equate being illiterate with retardation?

Are there any other rights you don't want illiterate people to have?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 10:07:41 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2019, 09:27:23 am »
I thought the following, from the Legal Information Institute at the Cornell Law School (one of the best sites around for finding good information on the law), was interesting enough to share:
 

This reinforces,  I think,  the point I have been trying to make that the "individual rights" theory of the 2A is one of two competing theories that have each found favor with the SCOTUS at different times.   The other view, the collective rights theory,  is supported by  ........

@Jazzhead

Quote
The other view, the collective rights theory,  is supported by  ........

"Collectivists". Sometimes it IS necessary to state the obvious
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 09:31:11 am by sneakypete »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2019, 09:31:43 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

Why? What does literacy have to do with it?  Do you equate being literacy with retardation?

Are there any other rights you don't want illiterate people to have?

@sneakypete think about what Literacy tests are associated with.

She wasn’t saying anything complimentary or useful towards any of us.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2019, 10:31:31 am »
@sneakypete think about what Literacy tests are associated with.

She wasn’t saying anything complimentary or useful towards any of us.

@txradioguy

I sometimes like for posters to refine their thoughts so there is no confusion about what they implied. Especially on a subject as controversial these days as illiteracy. I suspect that illiteracy is rare these days outside the Dim strongholds that used to be referred to as "ghettos" ,but not so rare for the generation that are now on SS.

The man that adopted me was illiterate,and his wife only had a 5th grade education. Neither of which was uncommon for people of their generation. He had to quit school in the 3rd grade to go to work at a boatyard as a laborer after his father died to help support  his mother and 5 brothers and sisters. Later on,after he was married,he and my mother took in her nephew to raise after his parents were killed in a car wreck,and then adopted me maybe 10 years later. After I joined the army and left,they tried to adopt again,but were turned down due to age and illnesses.

The woman who raised me had a similar backstory. Her mother and father both died in the flue epidemic of 1918,and both she and her little sister were saved by the only social organization at the time that had the ability to help orphans,the KKK. The Klan put them both with a one-legged Civil War veteran who was having a tough time taking care of himself. She told me the way it was explained to her and him was "You need someone to cook,clean and help you around the house,and these little girls need a place to live. In return,you feed and clothe them and send them to school."

The Klan had to come back a year or so later and remind him of the deal he had agreed to,though. She never told me what led up to it other than he started drinking a lot,but she told me that one Friday night they showed up on horseback and carrying torches,and called him out in the yard and "laid down the law to him". According to my mother,the head Kluxxer told him "Old man,we have received word that you are not sending these little girls to school,and that you are not buying groceries and other items appropriate for little girls,but are spending most of your money on whiskey. If we ever hear of this happening again we will come back,and I will tie to to that tree in the corner of your yard,and beat you with a horsewhip until my arm gets tired." My mother told me they never again had a single problem with that old man right up to the day he died.

Anyhow,at the time my mother and father were children,it was not uncommon to see children AND adults that were illiterate because many children had to work to help support their families. That does NOT mean or even imply any  of them were retarded.

I will grant you that these days illiteracy amongst the native-born is rare,but I suppose it must exist at some level.

Still,illiteracy isn't an issue in regard to voting rights these days. Even illiterate people have access to news via radio and tv,plus talking with their neighbors.

Retardation isn't really a problem in LEGAL voting because it's obvious these people can't cast an informed vote. Yes,I AM positive retards vote on a regular basis in Dim districts,but so do dead people,imaginary people,and even cartoon characters. This won't be stopped because the DNC doesn't want it stopped. IMHO,it could be fairly stated that "Retards are the base voters for the DNC."
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2019, 07:10:13 pm »
@sneakypete think about what Literacy tests are associated with.

She wasn’t saying anything complimentary or useful towards any of us.

@txradioguy

I understand it is a BoZo NoNo to mention the word "illiteracy" today because the Tan Klan and their allies in the media claim it is always a code word slamming them,but it just ain't true.

There are more illiterate and poor white people in this country than there are black people,and always has been. Not to mention poor brown people.

I have heard the term "white trash" in reference to illiterate whites my entire life,and honestly don't remember much mention of blacks,one way or the other until after I was an adult and away from home. We just never had any problems with the local blacks,and they never had any problems with us.

And white people from the north have no trouble at all assuming that all working class whites in the south are "white trash" because we are not "sophisticated enough to live in a rat condo in NYC".

The white man that raised me was illiterate. Not because he was stupid,but because he had to quit school in the 3rd grade and go to work to help support his family. Couldn't read a word by the time he was an adult,and it was painful to watch him try to sign his name.  He wasn't stupid,though,and he damn sure wasn't lazy.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2019, 08:49:03 am »
@Jazzhead

"Collectivists". Sometimes it IS necessary to state the obvious

Also obvious is that the Supreme Court held the collective rights view of the 2A for almost 70 years, and only changed its view by reason of a 5 - 4 vote.   Should it revert to its earlier view,  the states will not be restricted by the 2A from banning entire classes of firearms and worse.   Nor will Congress in passing such bans at a federal level.   

This reality ought to focus the mind,  and get some of you all off your mountaintops.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2019, 09:03:05 am »
Also obvious is that the Supreme Court held the collective rights view of the 2A for almost 70 years, and only changed its view by reason of a 5 - 4 vote.   Should it revert to its earlier view,  the states will not be restricted by the 2A from banning entire classes of firearms and worse.   Nor will Congress in passing such bans at a federal level.   

This reality ought to focus the mind,  and get some of you all off your mountaintops.   
If you are referring to Miller, that decision was rife with errors. The court even failed to recognize that Shotguns are and have been (and still are) a military weapon, not just for duck hunting.
There is nothing more collective than "The People", to whom the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is reserved.
Nothing you say changes that fact, it's there in black and white.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 09:04:28 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2019, 09:09:44 am »
If you are referring to Miller, that decision was rife with errors. The court even failed to recognize that Shotguns are and have been (and still are) a military weapon, not just for duck hunting.
There is nothing more collective than "The People", to whom the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is reserved.
Nothing you say changes that fact, it's there in black and white.

You're in denial, sir. 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2019, 09:23:38 am »
You're in denial, sir.
Nope. Wrong again. I'm in North Dakota.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2019, 09:49:40 am »
Also obvious is that the Supreme Court held the collective rights view of the 2A for almost 70 years, and only changed its view by reason of a 5 - 4 vote.   Should it revert to its earlier view,  the states will not be restricted by the 2A from banning entire classes of firearms and worse.   Nor will Congress in passing such bans at a federal level.

States can try to ban entire classes and they'll get taken to court over it and lose.  Just like the city of New York is about to lose the case that was filed against it by the NYSRPA.

This "state level" bans think will happen...Heller and McDonald are the caselaw which will shoot any more attempts by a state to ban weapons or classes of weapons.   

Quote
This reality ought to focus the mind,  and get some of you all off your mountaintops.   

Physician heal thyself.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2019, 09:50:32 am »
You're in denial, sir.

Considering you completely deny what is plainly written in the 2nd Amendment...that's a bit of pot and kettle from you.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2019, 09:56:55 am »
Quote
“Red flag” laws are now all the rage in the Beltway as the magic pill to prevent homicidal maniacs from wreaking havoc on the nation. Even President Trump has endorsed the idea of preemptively confiscating people’s firearms if they are deemed a “threat.”

But if you want to know how this American version of China’s social credit system would work in practice, let me remind you of how Veterans Affairs recklessly red-flags “disruptive” citizens without due process, transparency or accountability in the name of “safety.” Government bureaucrats routinely deprive our nation’s heroes of medical treatment based on arbitrary definitions of who and what constitutes a mental health menace.

Under the VA policy on “patient record flags,” federal bureaucrats can classify vets as “threats” based on assessments of their “difficult,” “annoying” and “noncompliant” behavior. The VA manual says the flags “are used to alert Veterans Health Administration medical staff and employees of patients whose behavior and characteristics may pose a threat either to their safety, the safety of other patients, or compromise the delivery of quality health care.”

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/08/12/how-the-va-red-flags-patriots-should-raise-alarms/
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #112 on: August 16, 2019, 10:04:31 am »
States can try to ban entire classes and they'll get taken to court over it and lose.  Just like the city of New York is about to lose the case that was filed against it by the NYSRPA.

This "state level" bans think will happen...Heller and McDonald are the caselaw which will shoot any more attempts by a state to ban weapons or classes of weapons.   

Correct!   State law bans should be able to be overturned on the basis of Heller and McDonald.   But my point is that the 2A applies to secure your rights ONLY because of Heller and McDonald.    Those decisions are as vulnerable to potential reversal - and I'd argue they are significantly more vulnerable - than Roe v. Wade. 

Quit fighting with your allies and focus your approbation on your enemies.  I am not your enemy - just your friend trying to knock some common sense into you. 
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #113 on: August 16, 2019, 10:05:55 am »
Considering you completely deny what is plainly written in the 2nd Amendment...that's a bit of pot and kettle from you.

What is plainly written in the 2A is the predicate clause.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #114 on: August 16, 2019, 10:15:49 am »
What is plainly written in the 2A is the predicate clause.

No what is plainly written...to anyone who isn't hell bent on violating our guaranteed rights (you) is this:

Quote
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Most of us here are arguing over protecting a guaranteed Constitutional right....you're arguing over a comma.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #115 on: August 16, 2019, 10:21:25 am »
But my point is that the 2A applies to secure your rights ONLY because of Heller and McDonald.    Those decisions are as vulnerable to potential reversal

And there's where you continually and consistently go off the rails and show a complete lack of understanding of the Second Amendment in General and what Heller and McDonald did in relation to the Second Amendment specifically.

Heller and McDonald reaffirmed what has been written in stone for over 200 years.  They were necessary because of people like you that insist on arguing over a comma.



Quote
Quit fighting with your allies and focus your approbation on your enemies.  I am not your enemy - just your friend trying to knock some common sense into you.

When it comes to the Second Amendment what it means and how it relates to the schemes and regulation plans you want to implement against it...you're not a friend and you're damn sure not an ally.

And you and common sense aren't even on speaking terms on this issue.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2019, 10:28:56 am »
 *****rollingeyes*****
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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2019, 10:30:58 am »
Imagine if a government official treated other rights the way Jazzy wants the 2nd Amendment handled? Could a police officer search your home without a warrant if you didn’t have some state documentation showing you particularly needed your Fourth Amendment rights? Could a district attorney require you to testify against yourself unless you somehow proved to their satisfaction that you really, really needed your Fifth Amendment rights?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2019, 10:43:55 am »

Quit fighting with your allies and focus your approbation on your enemies.  I am not your enemy - just your friend trying to knock some common sense into you.

BUUULLSHIT. You most certainly ARE the enemy.

ANYONE who tries to mess with my natural rights is not my ally.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2019, 10:46:51 am »
What is plainly written in the 2A is the predicate clause.

 *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes*****
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2019, 11:23:13 am »
And this kinda thing, right here, is exactly why I am no longer a Republican, and probably never will be again.

*SPIT*

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2019, 12:29:22 pm »
*****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes***** *****rollingeyes*****

The Founders put that predicate clause there.   Direct your roll-eyes at them, not me.   
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2019, 12:37:49 pm »
BUUULLSHIT.    ANYONE who tries to mess with my natural rights is not my ally.

Your very words explain how the survivors of gun rampages and the family, friends and associates of the dead feel about you messing with the natural right to life  --- so maybe, just maybe you'll give some thought to turning down the sanctimony and rhetoric.  Both are over the top.

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2019, 12:53:37 pm »
The Founders put that predicate clause there.   Direct your roll-eyes at them, not me.

The rolls are directed at your words, not the language of the 2nd.  This is the fifth or so turn around your circular argument.
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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2019, 01:01:11 pm »
The rolls are directed at your words, not the language of the 2nd.  This is the fifth or so turn around your circular argument.

I don't know how you guys can see out of the rut that has been worn around this particular bush. 
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2019, 01:05:00 pm »
Your very words explain how the survivors of gun rampages and the family, friends and associates of the dead feel about you messing with the natural right to life  --- so maybe, just maybe you'll give some thought to turning down the sanctimony and rhetoric.  Both are over the top.

Precisely ass-backwards. Far, far more peoples lives are saved by guns than taken by them. And my right to self defense is equal to my right to life, as is everyone else's... They are one and the same thing by natural law. Natural rights are monolithic and inviolable.

How DARE you prefer theirs over mine? Taking my right to defend is also taking theirs, and as history attests, over and over and over again, that is exactly where you are going. So save me your piety - COME AND GET EM.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2019, 01:17:01 pm »
The rolls are directed at your words, not the language of the 2nd.  This is the fifth or so turn around your circular argument.

You describe my argument as circular.  Please explain. 
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Offline EdJames

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2019, 01:55:20 pm »
You describe my argument as circular.  Please explain.

Obviously not @Cyber Liberty, and I am unsure of what he means by "circular."  But I will tell you that seeing the same crap posted over and over is beyond boring.

A simple site specific google search with the terms "jazzhead" and "Heller" yields pages and pages of results...  if we could search the database for those terms and count the results, it would yield the several hundreds of posts that you spam these threads with.

Any reasonable person of good intentions would realize that you are not getting any traction with your ideas (and haven't for the years that you keep spamming them) that summarize to:
- Our natural law-based RKBA is 'granted' to us by the US government via the Second Amendment (rejected and untrue)
- within the Second Amendment you believe a predicate clause intended to limit the Rights to some version of a militia (rejected and untrue)
- only with the Heller opinion did the RKBA get graciously extended by the SC, to individuals...  (rejected and untrue)

Posting the same rejected arguments another several hundred times is not going to convince anyone of your beliefs.

You were invited kindly by several people to join the relevant discussion of our RKBA and the so-called Red Flag Laws being proposed, within the terms that most members of this forum adhere to, and the Principles that undergird them.  You balked at not being able to watch a video, now the entire presentation has been transcribed.

Rather than persist in being a spamming troll, why don't you engage in the discussion on the terms of the vast majority of the interested and engaged forum members, rather than constantly trying to shift the debate and language to the terms and beliefs that have been clearly rejected here?

Offline thackney

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2019, 02:06:51 pm »
The Founders put that predicate clause there.   Direct your roll-eyes at them, not me.

The predicate clause is why the people should not be deprived of the right to own military weapons.  The people had just overthrow a totalitarian government.  They were not about to prevent the people from doing that again.
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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2019, 02:09:20 pm »
Thanks, @EdJames for that.  That is exactly what I am talking about, and I greatly appreciate the research you did for your post.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2019, 02:11:55 pm »
The predicate clause is why the people should not be deprived of the right to own military weapons.  The people had just overthrow a totalitarian government.  They were not about to prevent the people from doing that again.

The hazard of applying a 21st Century block written interpretation to 18th Century cursive words.  A lawyer's delight.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #131 on: August 16, 2019, 02:14:09 pm »
Precisely ass-backwards. Far, far more peoples lives are saved by guns than taken by them. And my right to self defense is equal to my right to life, as is everyone else's... They are one and the same thing by natural law. Natural rights are monolithic and inviolable.

How DARE you prefer theirs over mine? Taking my right to defend is also taking theirs, and as history attests, over and over and over again, that is exactly where you are going. So save me your piety - COME AND GET EM.

And don't send mercenaries in uniforms to get em.  Do it yourself if you want them so badly.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #132 on: August 16, 2019, 02:14:50 pm »
Quote
I am unsure of what he means by "circular."

So am I @EdJames @Cyber Liberty but for me, the definition is having something slapped down repeatedly today and then returning again tomorrow with the exact same thing.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:17:00 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2019, 02:17:26 pm »
And don't send mercenaries in uniforms to get em.  Do it yourself if you want them so badly.

Yeah... Fat chance of that.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2019, 02:21:53 pm »
Rather than persist in being a spamming troll, why don't you engage in the discussion on the terms of the vast majority of the interested and engaged forum members, rather than constantly trying to shift the debate and language to the terms and beliefs that have been clearly rejected here?

This is a public forum, sir.  Right now, there are more guests viewing this thread than members.   On this subject, I will post what I want, within the board's rules, in order to persuade those readers of a realistic, reasonable and Constitutional view of the RKBA in opposition to the prevailing gun extremism.   

And I ask again of CL:   Please explain why my argument is circular.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2019, 02:22:40 pm »
Yeah... Fat chance of that.

And fat chance that you'd choose to die rather than register a firearm.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2019, 02:29:42 pm »
And fat chance that you'd choose to die rather than register a firearm.

On that, you are entirely wrong. And I am many.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #137 on: August 16, 2019, 02:32:28 pm »
This is a public forum, sir.  Right now, there are more guests viewing this thread than members.   On this subject, I will post what I want, within the board's rules, in order to persuade those readers of a realistic, reasonable and Constitutional view of the RKBA in opposition to the prevailing gun extremism.   

And I ask again of CL:   Please explain why my argument is circular.

I see what you are getting at:  It's the series of arguments that is circular, not a specific argument.  You will make an assertion and defend it until it's thoroughly shot down, so you introduce another argument, with the same results.  Repeat several times and you return to your first disproven assertion, as if it hadn't been debunked.  Then go on to the next, as if it wasn't disproven, either.

Repeat forever.  As @EdJames would say, it's worse than wrong, it's boring.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline verga

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #138 on: August 16, 2019, 03:14:49 pm »
I get this @txradioguy  … citizen army.  But you keep missing "well-regulated" and "state". 

See, this is the problem.  [Full disclosure: I think there are cogent reasons for allowing citizens to arm themselves] ….But, the 2nd amendment does not speak about individuals outside a well regulated state militia (to fight the federal government should it become necessary).  Again, these are the 27 words in the Constitution:

One man or one woman wearing a black robe sitting on the highest court in the land is all that stands between the interpretation of 2A as a state's right to form a militia and Heller's interpretation that the 2A extends to individuals, absent a state militia.

Don't tell me the Democrat-Socialist wouldn't have a chance using the reversal of Heller to come and get your guns.  Don't you dare -- you know they will.


Think very carefully about throwing the baby out with the bathwater come Nov 3, 2020.  Very carefully.
@Right_in_Virginia 10 U.S. Code § 246. Militia: composition and classes
U.S. Code
Notes
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(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:15:39 pm by verga »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2019, 03:18:44 pm »
And fat chance that you'd choose to die rather than register a firearm.

Better chance of that then the nation rolling over and accepting it.

What happened with the Canadian Registration?

The vast majority refused to accept to the point the government withdrew it, rather than try to enforce it.

Why do you believe it would be more widely accepted here?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2019, 03:21:00 pm »
On that, you are entirely wrong. And I am many.

Oh, I think I'm right.  Otherwise, how would be able to enjoy that moonless starry sky from your mountaintop?   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2019, 03:27:31 pm »
Oh, I think I'm right.  Otherwise, how would be able to enjoy that moonless starry sky from your mountaintop?   

You might be surprised what I can do from a mountaintop.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2019, 04:06:51 pm »
You might be surprised what I can do from a mountaintop.

Steep embankments and a Citadel are nice, too.  Sorry, no room for a moat.  It would play hob with the septic leech field, anyway.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2019, 04:12:50 pm »
Steep embankments and a Citadel are nice, too.  Sorry, no room for a moat.  It would play hob with the septic leech field, anyway.

Doesn't matter.. @Jazzhead thinks I would forgo necessity to enjoy that starry sky... I'd rather that I deal with the necessity so that my grandchildren can do so.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2019, 04:26:18 pm »
Obviously not @Cyber Liberty, and I am unsure of what he means by "circular."  But I will tell you that seeing the same crap posted over and over is beyond boring.

Unnecessary and unwise @EdJames --- when the very same could be said of your posts. 

Perhaps as the Mod you could lock the Second Amendment forum for a Friday night cooling down period?  Encourage folks to step outside the fight and enjoy a Friday night in the waning summer.

Just a thought.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #145 on: August 16, 2019, 04:30:08 pm »
What is plainly written in the 2A is the predicate clause.
The predicate clause establishes the reason for the Right of the People, but not like commonly interpreted.

Not to be part of that well (controlled) regulated Militia (standing army), but to keep it well regulated by the force, if necessary, of the overwhelming force of arms of the entire populace. This was discussed in The Federalist Papers which were, in essence, the case made in the public forum for the Constitution and the Republic.
Federalist 46 James Madison:
Quote
Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.

The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms.
This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.

Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.[2]
.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #146 on: August 16, 2019, 04:35:33 pm »
Yeah... Fat chance of that.
Yeah, half the people who want them couldn't huff and puff their way up the hill before dark.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2019, 04:43:03 pm »
And fat chance that you'd choose to die rather than register a firearm.
Why choose either? False dichotomy.
I'll die some day, that's inevitable, and I'm in no hurry.
My firearms will live on in the hands of relatives and friends, perhaps because some of them have no paperwork on them--but certainly not because they are registered.
That piece of paper (computer file, whatever, now) would only provide the means to confiscate them, could they be found, or imprison me for 'obstruction' or some such could they not be and had been outlawed.
 Why would any sane person take such risks?
I'm old enough to have seen the winds of change outlaw that which in my youth was commonplace, lawful, and moral.
Why subject possessions which have outlived governments to such whim?

I'm a firm believer in government governing best which governs least, and what the government doesn't know won't hurt me.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #148 on: August 16, 2019, 04:44:21 pm »
Unnecessary and unwise @EdJames --- when the very same could be said of your posts. 

Ummm...I don't see it.

Quote
Perhaps as the Mod you could lock the Second Amendment forum for a Friday night cooling down period?  Encourage folks to step outside the fight and enjoy a Friday night in the waning summer.

Just a thought.

No.  We've been lucky so far, in that we haven't had to lock either of the "Red Flag" threads that have been running fevered the past week, and we don't want to start now, especially if the criteria (vague as they may be) have not been breached.  We're more likely to remove/edit posts that are meant to cause a thread to be locked.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #149 on: August 16, 2019, 04:49:56 pm »
Yeah, half the people who want them couldn't huff and puff their way up the hill before dark.

They want to send physically fit officers to do the confiscation dirty work.  They're too chicken to face @roamer_1 themselves, so they'll send mercenaries.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: