Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election

[Sanguine]

I must note that those days preceded LBJ's "Great Society".
Consider:
First off, not all black (slave) families were torn apart in the days of slavery. (Not the Free blacks at all.) Often the families remained intact or the children as they grew with the children of the owners went with those children of the owners or stayed with the farm.
The families were tied together more than history will ever write, especially the revisionist stuff of today which is sixth generation abolitionist agitprop perpetrated to justify waging total warfare on the South, looting, burning farms and crops that were not 'conscripted', and hanging any male who had stayed behind to work the farm as a spy. That's how Custer made his name in the Carolinas.

But imagine full employment, housing, food, clothing, medical care, all taken care of (and they even ate organic food--no GMO!).

Oh sh*t! Wait! That isn't welfare, it's slavery! They worked!
They weren't cruising the 'hood and dealing/taking drugs, hooking, and getting their asses dead by 30 from a drive by shooting or in a robbery or a gang fight. There were no crack whores, no crack babies, nobody's kid waking up dead in the morning with a spike in their arm because the dealer burned them. Instead, their children went on to do things like found Tuskegee Institute and other universities. They didn't have the social services coming in and taking the kids and sending them off to some foster care.

Open your mind just that much to see the difference and maybe someone had a point. They just weren't free, but then neither are many of the welfare blacks today--they just don't recognize their chains.

There may have been cases where there was abuse, after the 3% of those captured and sold to slave traders in Africa came to America, where those families captured intact were sold in different directions. There may have been cases where the level of abuse found in abolitionist Harriet Beecher Stowe's NOVEL actually happened.

But the degradation of the Black family in times of supposed freedom at the hands of the Liberals in this country in the last 50 years eclipses that in scope and intensity, despite the illusion of freedom the welfare and social services and the housing people give.

As for the rest of us, this didn't exist, either. It is the other set of chains, imposed on us by those who are 'free', or at least living that way.

Seriously?  Let's say for the hell of it, my ancestors came over as Irish slaves (and, there were a lot of them who actually did.)  Let's say, for the hell of it, someone walks up to me and says something along the lines of "well, at least some of them got to form families in slavery, and some of those families got to stay together", and they got to have " full employment, housing, food, clothing, medical care, all taken care of (and they even ate organic food--no GMO!)", I would want to deck you.  I probably wouldn't because I'm a peaceful person, and I should be past all of that history by now, but I would want to.   

Maybe their descendents don't always make the best decisions nowadays, and definitely the federal government has enslaved many of them, but it's a choice now - you can stay on the plantation or you can leave.

[DiogenesLamp]

If true it was done without my knowledge...why lock a thread if it is boring, it dies off on it's own.

That was exactly my thinking at the time.   Of course,  I may have been keeping it limping along or something.   :) 

[DiogenesLamp]

First off, not all black (slave) families were torn apart in the days of slavery. (Not the Free blacks at all.) Often the families remained intact or the children as they grew with the children of the owners went with those children of the owners or stayed with the farm.
The families were tied together more than history will ever write, especially the revisionist stuff of today which is sixth generation abolitionist agitprop perpetrated to justify waging total warfare on the South, looting, burning farms and crops that were not 'conscripted', and hanging any male who had stayed behind to work the farm as a spy. That's how Custer made his name in the Carolinas.

But imagine full employment, housing, food, clothing, medical care, all taken care of (and they even ate organic food--no GMO!).

I can interpret what you are trying to say in the best possible light,   but your argument is very "tone-deaf"  from the perspective of the modern zeitgeist.   


There is really no way to make your point to a modern audience in such a way that it won't be condemned.   It argues against some things that people were brought up to believe are bedrock principles,   so whether in fact your point is actually rational becomes irrelevant.   


You won't be able to get anyone to even entertain the notion. 


I will note that quite a lot of the descendants of slaves do tend to end up in controlled environments where they are not free.   The only difference between that and slavery is that they are there to be punished,  and they aren't required to do any work. 


Theoretically,  slavery is still legal.


But no one would dare. 

[Mod1]

Perhaps my memory is faulty,   but I recall that there was a thread in which I do not recall any large number of insults,  but which was closed,  and the reason cited was "boring."   

I think it was over a month ago,  perhaps even two months ago.   I'm trying to recall what the thread was about,  but i've slept since then.   

I almost messaged you about it at the time,   but then I thought better of it.   You had been so gracious in the past that I decided it wasn't fair to trouble you with it.   

I am the one who did it, and I remember full well why.  Please allow me to refresh your memory:  People were fighting endlessly, despite my multiple pleas to get back on topic.  I locked it for a couple of hours to let things cool down, or I was going to have to start writing T/O tickets to the instigators.  You were exercising good judgement in not complaining to @mystery-ak about it because you were one of the chief trouble makers.

I had my partner, Mod8 come in and unlock it a few hours later.

I said I was "bored" because I was being diplomatic.  It was better than "Diogenes, take a day or two off."  Wouldn't you agree?

[musiclady]

I can interpret what you are trying to say in the best possible light,   but your argument is very "tone-deaf"  from the perspective of the modern zeitgeist.   


There is really no way to make your point to a modern audience in such a way that it won't be condemned.   It argues against some things that people were brought up to believe are bedrock principles,   so whether in fact your point is actually rational becomes irrelevant.   


You won't be able to get anyone to even entertain the notion. 


I will note that quite a lot of the descendants of slaves do tend to end up in controlled environments where they are not free.   The only difference between that and slavery is that they are there to be punished,  and they aren't required to do any work. 


Theoretically,  slavery is still legal.


But no one would dare.

Modern zeitgeist??? 

That's what you call the concept that people should be free??  That's what you call NOT defending the purchase of human beings and their being treated as property??   That's what you call opposing the selling of wives and husbands, and children away from their families to other plantations, or excusing it because it didn't happen that often??  That's what you call being shocked that someone would say slavery was better because at least then blacks worked???

THAT is what you call "modern zeitgeist??"

What is going on on this forum??

Has loyalty to Roy Moore turned people inside out??  Defending trolling for children because there aren't enough older women who are "pure?"  Now saying slavery wasn't all that bad??

Or were some of you this way to begin with, and your love of Moore just tore away the façade??

If there are many of you who actually believe these things, then perhaps some of the rest of us need to find a more decent forum.

[DiogenesLamp]

I am the one who did it, and I remember full well why.  Please allow me to refresh your memory:  People were fighting endlessly, despite my multiple pleas to get back on topic.  I locked it for a couple of hours to let things cool down, or I was going to have to start writing T/O tickets to the instigators.  You were exercising good judgement in not complaining to @mystery-ak about it because you were one of the chief trouble makers.

I had my partner, Mod8 come in and unlock it a few hours later.

I said I was "bored" because I was being diplomatic.  It was better than "Diogenes, take a day or two off."  Wouldn't you agree?

You have the advantage over me on the context,  because I no longer recall what it was about other than it was about something I considered highly important;   Probably the broadcasting propaganda power of the trillion dollar media-weapon,   which I have always considered the prime threat to our lives.   


I don't recall myself doing any insulting beyond ordinary snark if even that,   but arguing forcefully and passionately is something I have always done,  and it is inherent in my nature.   


Yes,  I was the "Chief Troublemaker",   but that was because I kept talking about the issue,   I do not recall being a "troublemaker"  about gratuitous insults.    I actually don't mind getting into such spats,  but since I know it is frowned upon here,  I restrain myself.   


At least I think that I do.  :) 

[DiogenesLamp]

Modern zeitgeist??? 

That's what you call the concept that people should be free??  That's what you call NOT defending the purchase of human beings and their being treated as property??   That's what you call opposing the selling of wives and husbands, and children away from their families to other plantations, or excusing it because it didn't happen that often??  That's what you call being shocked that someone would say slavery was better because at least then blacks worked???

THAT is what you call "modern zeitgeist??"

What is going on on this forum??

Has loyalty to Roy Moore turned people inside out??  Defending trolling for children because there aren't enough older women who are "pure?"  Now saying slavery wasn't all that bad??

Or were some of you this way to begin with, and your love of Moore just tore away the façade??

If there are many of you who actually believe these things, then perhaps some of the rest of us need to find a more decent forum.

And this is why I normally just skip over messages you have written. 

[Smokin Joe]

I can't believe you just outlined the goodness of slavery and aren't ashamed of what you said. (Even though, you at least agreed with him with the cover of anonymity).

I guess I understand your support of Moore in spite of his boneheaded defense of the days of slavery.  You actually agree with him.

That's very disturbing.

VERY disturbing.

(btw, if Moore were a smart racist, he would have just mentioned the damage LBJ did and not made the idiotic public support he gave for the days of slavery.  I guess that just makes him a dumb racist).

What I find disturbing is that you cannot see that my comments were not racist, just a comparison.

They were not about Moore, but the socioeconomic situation both then and now. Your implication that he is a "dumb racist" is noted, but I think it is crap and just reads in what you may desperately want to find as another excuse to vilify the man.
That lack of comprehension is surprising to me considering your past posts, and indicates you may be emotionally entangled with the racism issue and Moore himself, and not in a constructive way.

I am not advocating slavery, either. Far from it--I find the institution abhorrent. As I said, I am just comparing.

If you see my comparison as a 'defense', then perhaps you should take another look without the emotional baggage and at least see what the man was saying.

If you find that I have painted a slightly better picture of healthy families inhabiting humble quarters in an agrarian setting compared to the dysfunctional dystopia of America's drug and crime ridden inner city slums, well, maybe that's because when you look at it that way, Moore had a point, and Moore having a point would be incompatible with your feelings about him.
Now, aside from the CPS coming in, those families aren't broken up and 'sold down the river', they are broken up at funerals, sent 'up the river' (to prison), or never even bothered to become a family except for the deposit of some bodily fluids. (Check out the babies born out of wedlock for the demographic). Is that so much better?

No employer, regardless of what they pay, will intentionally make employees unhappy. Happy employees mean higher productivity, better results, less broken equipment, better maintenance, even a feeling of pride in their work and where they do it. Breaking up families in that situation would be conterproductive.

You see racism and 'Moore support' into what I said because that is what you wanted to see so you could ignore what I said, dismissing it as 'one of those' supporting Moore or as racist, or both, because facts are just too inconvenient.

Keep in mind that Moore is no fan of most of the Amendments to the Constitution after the Bill of Rights, and you find yourself back in the era before the war of Northern Aggression.

History isn't the smooth-complected made-up face you want to see, it's covered with scars and warts and moles and errant hairs, because such is human existence. If you think, really, honestly, think that overall things are better today (not counting technological gizmos and advances in medicine and the often unused freedom to leave a bad situation where such exist), feel free to state your case.

There were a host of social ills not present in that agrarian society which had not yet dismantled the Constitution to impose the Union with torch and shot, which was (despite slavery) still largely practicing, not just nominally Christian*, and which had not reduced the Federal Government to a National one, which, for good or ill, has produced the mess we have today.
(*Yes, if you look in your copy of The Holy Bible, you will find slavery in there, too.)
Those, for all their faults, were simpler times. We Americans freed the blacks and other slaves and by 100 years later had all become slaves. If you don't think so, try not filing your taxes, paying your property taxes, conforming with your HOA or just the zoning laws. You aren't any more free than your masters in DC and the Statehouse give you the illusion of being.

As Mr.T said when asked why he wore so many gold chains, "We are all slaves, I just come at a higher price."

I love my country, warts and all, and still think it the best on the planet, but it won't stay that way if people won't see its flaws as well as its good points. The festering rot in our social structure is going to destroy it along with the corruption in high places. But if we spend our time being distracted by awkward historical comparisons, we won't fix the problems we have, if we even acknowledge them.

[musiclady]

And this is why I normally just skip over messages you have written.

Why?  Because they are conservative, and they make sense? 

[Bigun]

Imagine how two constitutional protagonists like Moore and Cruz could tag team the whole GOPe.

Yeah!  I know!  And believe me THEY know as well!

[Bigun]

Some of us think that overt racism is actually a flaw.

Interesting to find out who doesn't mind that about him.........

You and I agree about many things but what constitutes "racism" clearly isn't one of them.

[DiogenesLamp]

Why?  Because they are conservative, and they make sense? 

I would go more along the lines of "histrionic,  "straw man-y", virtue signaling and accusatory. " 


It's like you are trying to be offended or something.    We can disagree without being disagreeable. 

[musiclady]

@Smokin Joe

No matter how you excuse it, the things you said are inexcusable.  As are the things Moore said.  (I have no need to "vilify him.  He takes care of that admirably himself).


Racism is not conservative, (nor is trolling for underage girls for that matter) and excusing any part of slavery abhorrent.


Sorry, but as a conservative, I can't stomach excuses for evil, no matter how much it made "socio-economic" sense to you.

And saying that the evil of slavery wasn't as bad as welfare because blacks were "working" is beneath you.

(And if it's not, then I completely misread who you were.  Right now, I'm afraid I did).

[musiclady]

I would go more along the lines of "histrionic,  "straw man-y", virtue signaling and accusatory. " 


It's like you are trying to be offended or something.    We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Oh, yeah............. I'm just "trying" to be offended because someone on a board I love talks about how slavery wasn't all that bad because not that many families had their kids sold away from them.

I mean, some of their owners even let them learn to read.  Never mind that owning another human being is despicable....

There's not even a touch of the histrionic in the accurate description of one of the greatest evils in American history.

And there's nothing even remotely conservative in excusing it or explaining it away.

I don't pay attention to "zeitgeist" for moral truth.  If you've read anything I've written, you know that.

[Smokin Joe]

Seriously?  Let's say for the hell of it, my ancestors came over as Irish slaves (and, there were a lot of them who actually did.)  Let's say, for the hell of it, someone walks up to me and says something along the lines of "well, at least some of them got to form families in slavery, and some of those families got to stay together", and they got to have " full employment, housing, food, clothing, medical care, all taken care of (and they even ate organic food--no GMO!)", I would want to deck you.  I probably wouldn't because I'm a peaceful person, and I should be past all of that history by now, but I would want to.   

Maybe their descendents don't always make the best decisions nowadays, and definitely the federal government has enslaved many of them, but it's a choice now - you can stay on the plantation or you can leave.

When the poster brought up the issue of "racism", I assumed they were referring to black slaves.
The Irish have been valuable members of American society, with the exception of the damned Kennedys and a few others. YMMV
I was not advocating slavery, merely comparing the two situations for the black slaves of the day and inner city blacks. Since I am part Irish, the thought of me being considered 'racist' toward the Irish never crossed my mind.

Advocate today as 'better'  for those inner city blacks if you want. At least they are free to have broken families, out of wedlock birth, drug abuse, alcoholism, and violent crime, and they don't even have to work for it. Now, tell me where that is wrong.
As for the Antebellum era,
In addition:
No income tax
No industrialized abortion.
No Obamacare
No welfare, except from local charity
No GMOs,
No "foreign entanglements"
Prior to 1860, our Armies were not scattered around the Globe, and our young men were not dying on other continents 'nation building'--we were busy building our own.
A person could go west, make their peace with the native people and find and exploit mineral wealth with a minimum of government interference.
Being armed was generally expected, especially in outlying areas, and hunting for food was normal.
There were far fewer regulations and encumbrances.

You can make the case either way as to which time was better, and for whom, and Again, I am not advocating slavery for anyone, I was just comparing the situation of black farm slaves with inner city blacks.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

No matter how you excuse it, the things you said are inexcusable.  As are the things Moore said.  (I have no need to "vilify him.  He takes care of that admirably himself).


Racism is not conservative, (nor is trolling for underage girls for that matter) and excusing any part of slavery abhorrent.


Sorry, but as a conservative, I can't stomach excuses for evil, no matter how much it made "socio-economic" sense to you.

And saying that the evil of slavery wasn't as bad as welfare because blacks were "working" is beneath you.

(And if it's not, then I completely misread who you were.  Right now, I'm afraid I did).

I guess this is inexcusable:

I am not advocating slavery, either. Far from it--I find the institution abhorrent.

You have not read, or simply not comprehended what I wrote. Have a nice day.

[Sanguine]

When the poster brought up the issue of "racism", I assumed they were referring to black slaves.
The Irish have been valuable members of American society, with the exception of the damned Kennedys and a few others. YMMV
I was not advocating slavery, merely comparing the two situations for the black slaves of the day and inner city blacks. Since I am part Irish, the thought of me being considered 'racist' toward the Irish never crossed my mind.

Advocate today as 'better'  for those inner city blacks if you want. At least they are free to have broken families, out of wedlock birth, drug abuse, alcoholism, and violent crime, and they don't even have to work for it. Now, tell me where that is wrong.
As for the Antebellum era,
In addition:
No income tax
No industrialized abortion.
No Obamacare
No welfare, except from local charity
No GMOs,
No "foreign entanglements"
Prior to 1860, our Armies were not scattered around the Globe, and our young men were not dying on other continents 'nation building'--we were busy building our own.
A person could go west, make their peace with the native people and find and exploit mineral wealth with a minimum of government interference.
Being armed was generally expected, especially in outlying areas, and hunting for food was normal.
There were far fewer regulations and encumbrances.

You can make the case either way as to which time was better, and for whom, and Again, I am not advocating slavery for anyone, I was just comparing the situation of black farm slaves with inner city blacks.

If it works for black people, it should work for anyone else.  That's how you determine a bias.  If it works regardless of the characteristic being tested, there's no bias.

However, I wasn't talking about racism, I was specifically talking about an attitude towards slavery that I find unsupportable. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Oh, yeah............. I'm just "trying" to be offended because someone on a board I love talks about how slavery wasn't all that bad because not that many families had their kids sold away from them.

I didn't say any such thing,  but you are behaving as if I did. 

I don't pay attention to "zeitgeist" for moral truth.  If you've read anything I've written, you know that.

Many people do.   Have you noticed that "gays and transgenders"  are now considered moral and acceptable?    "Zeitgeist"  is a real "thing",  whether people like it or not. 


To judge the mores of an era,  you have to understand what they are,  and how and why they were different from the modern era. 

[Cyber Liberty]

You can make the case either way as to which time was better, and for whom, and Again, I am not advocating slavery for anyone, I was just comparing the situation of black farm slaves with inner city blacks.

Unfortunately, nuance goes out the window whenever one utters the word "slavery" in any but the darkest of tones.

Not saying there was anything good about it, I'm from the North (and Irish), and the war between the states was ancient history to us, but I'm just saying it's difficult to be nuanced about it.

And there are many details.  Thomas Sowell did an article a few years back where he wrote about slaves who were actually paid for their work, because they had skills.  You can't beat a man into doing a good job shoeing your horses, you need better incentives.  These slaves eventually saved enough money to be able to purchase their own freedom (it's not like they had anywhere to spend it).

Sure it was an ugly part of our history (even those of us from the North), but not everybody who talks about it without cringing is evil, either.

[musiclady]

I didn't say any such thing,  but you are behaving as if I did.

I am behaving??  Yes, Daddy.     

If you don't feel guilty about what I said to someone else, then don't react so emotionally to it.

Many people do.   Have you noticed that "gays and transgenders"  are now considered moral and acceptable?    "Zeitgeist"  is a real "thing",  whether people like it or not. 


To judge the mores of an era,  you have to understand what they are,  and how and why they were different from the modern era.

Do you have any clue as to where I stand on moral issues?  You don't need to preach to me about changing standards.  I'm on the frontlines of those arguments as a conservative.  Maybe if you didn't skip over my "histrionic" replies on threads about morality, you'd know that, and would have avoided your error.

Your implication in trying to excuse the post to which you were replying was that it is the same thing...... zeitgeist........ that judges slavery as abhorrent.   By using that term to describe the excuses being made for evil, you were minimizing its evil.

Thus, I reacted.

Not in any form of "histrionics," but as one who understands the difference between sexual mores and our disintegrating culture, and owning and abusing other human beings..... but saying it's good that at least they were "working."

[musiclady]

Unfortunately, nuance goes out the window whenever one utters the word "slavery" in any but the darkest of tones.

Not saying there was anything good about it, I'm from the North (and Irish), and the war between the states was ancient history to us, but I'm just saying it's difficult to be nuanced about it.

And there are many details.  Thomas Sowell did an article a few years back where he wrote about slaves who were actually paid for their work, because they had skills.  You can't beat a man into doing a good job shoeing your horses, you need better incentives.  These slaves eventually saved enough money to be able to purchase their own freedom (it's not like they had anywhere to spend it).

Sure it was an ugly part of our history (even those of us from the North), but not everybody who talks about it without cringing is evil, either.

Hundreds of years of owning and abusing other human beings is not diminished by the fact that a few of them got paid and weren't beaten.

I love Thomas Sowell, but if the essence of his article was that it wasn't all that bad, he's wrong.

Other than abortion, and possibly the mass slaughter of Indians, it is the darkest blot in our history.

And the fact that it never really got resolved after the War is a great cause in the social ills we still have today.

[Cyber Liberty]

Hundreds of years of owning and abusing other human beings is not diminished by the fact that a few of them got paid and weren't beaten.

I love Thomas Sowell, but if the essence of his article was that it wasn't all that bad, he's wrong.

Other than abortion, and possibly the mass slaughter of Indians, it is the darkest blot in our history.

And the fact that it never really got resolved after the War is a great cause in the social ills we still have today.

Not gonna disagree with you, that was not my point.

This was.

[corbe]

   Can I intervene here for a moment to point out that @Chosen Daughter and @musiclady are among the top 5 righteous women we have here in TBR, IMHO.
   In spite of continuing my immoral, sinful ways, their post I always read and find interesting and insightful. 
   Sure I may be using their reflectivity to lessen my guilt about staying away from organized religion as a whole but kudos Ladies.

 Now we continue with our regularly scheduled program.

[Smokin Joe]

If it works for black people, it should work for anyone else.  That's how you determine a bias.  If it works regardless of the characteristic being tested, there's no bias.

However, I wasn't talking about racism, I was specifically talking about an attitude towards slavery that I find unsupportable.

Re read my comments. Read where I said what I think of the institution. If you find my finding slavery abhorrent unsupportable that means you don't find slavery abhorrent.

I can't support that attitude, either.
I am not for anyone being held as a slave.
But dammit, if you can't see the chains on all of us, you are just happily trotting around inside the radius of your lead rope with the impression you can run off to the far hills. The question of when the social problems were greater is one which can be answered with simple facts, and there have been quite a few social problems since the "Great Society" which are funded by the rest of us, ultimately at gunpoint. How 'free' is that. (In 1850 there was no income tax.)

[skeeter]

   Can I intervene here for a moment to point out that @Chosen Daughter and @musiclady are among the top 5 righteous women we have here in TBR, IMHO.
   In spite of continuing my immoral, sinful ways, their post I always read and find interesting and insightful. 
   Sure I may be using their reflectivity to lessen my guilt about staying away from organized religion as a whole but kudos Ladies.

 Now we continue with our regularly scheduled program.

Dang!

[TomSea]

   Can I intervene here for a moment to point out that @Chosen Daughter and @musiclady are among the top 5 righteous women we have here in TBR, IMHO.
   In spite of continuing my immoral, sinful ways, their post I always read and find interesting and insightful. 
   Sure I may be using their reflectivity to lessen my guilt about staying away from organized religion as a whole but kudos Ladies.

 Now we continue with our regularly scheduled program.

@Sanguine, @Right_in_Virginia
  (RIV)  and @Mesaclone and @XenaLee and indeed @libertybele   are much more righteous in my opinion. The two you mention are just unbalanced Trump haters and probably why you sprinkle them with compliments. If we are suppose to reference them for proper net etiquette, then I will , @Chosen Daughter  @musiclady 

Let alone, with the little tussle earlier, I have defended Dubya numerous times, I have supported the candidate and this candidate has done well on a number of things. We are lucky to even have the GOP in there.

@corbe

[TomSea]

What Moore said, I'd be danged if that was something racist, I don't see why this train of debate is merited. I don't think he in any way, deprecated African American people, all he said was "families were more unified"... That was what made America great, inspite of their still being slavery.

[EasyAce]

I don't think he in any way, deprecated African American people, all he said was "families were more unified"...

That, folks, is what slavery did to black families.

[skeeter]

@Sanguine, @Right_in_Virginia
  (RIV)  and @Mesaclone and @XenaLee and indeed @libertybele   are much more righteous in my opinion. The two you mention are just unbalanced Trump haters and probably why you sprinkle them with compliments. If we are suppose to reference them for proper net etiquette, then I will , @Chosen Daughter  @musiclady 

Let alone, with the little tussle earlier, I have defended Dubya numerous times, I have supported the candidate and this candidate has done well on a number of things. We are lucky to even have the GOP in there.

@corbe

 

[corbe]

@Sanguine, @Right_in_Virginia
  (RIV)  and @Mesaclone and @XenaLee and indeed @libertybele   are much more righteous in my opinion. The two you mention are just unbalanced Trump haters and probably why you sprinkle them with compliments. If we are suppose to reference them for proper net etiquette, then I will , @Chosen Daughter  @musiclady 

Let alone, with the little tussle earlier, I have defended Dubya numerous times, I have supported the candidate and this candidate has done well on a number of things. We are lucky to even have the GOP in there.

@corbe

    @TomSea  BUSTED! me, again.

[musiclady]

That, folks, is what slavery did to black families.

Thank you, sir!! 

[Cyber Liberty]

Thank you, sir!! 

@EasyAce always finds a way to bring my bead to center.   

[musiclady]

@Sanguine, @Right_in_Virginia
  (RIV)  and @Mesaclone and @XenaLee and indeed @libertybele   are much more righteous in my opinion. The two you mention are just unbalanced Trump haters and probably why you sprinkle them with compliments. If we are suppose to reference them for proper net etiquette, then I will , @Chosen Daughter  @musiclady 

Let alone, with the little tussle earlier, I have defended Dubya numerous times, I have supported the candidate and this candidate has done well on a number of things. We are lucky to even have the GOP in there.

@corbe

LOL!  Unbalanced because I am not in love??  You amuse me, Tom.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Trump, nor my recognition that he is not an honorable man.

The world outside of Trump actually exists.

You should try to join us in the real world some time.

@TomSea

This thread is about the election in Alabama.   Join in.

[TomSea]

That, folks, is what slavery did to black families.

Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis and Detroit are all so much better aren't they?

[musiclady]

   Can I intervene here for a moment to point out that @Chosen Daughter and @musiclady are among the top 5 righteous women we have here in TBR, IMHO.
   In spite of continuing my immoral, sinful ways, their post I always read and find interesting and insightful. 
   Sure I may be using their reflectivity to lessen my guilt about staying away from organized religion as a whole but kudos Ladies.

 Now we continue with our regularly scheduled program.

I am honored by your kind, kind words, @corbe , but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that none of us is righteous, least of all myself.   Only in Jesus Christ is there any good in me at all.

Thank you so much for being so kind.  I have the utmost respect for you.

[musiclady]

@EasyAce always finds a way to bring my bead to center.   

Seriously.  He has that effect on many of us!

[EasyAce]

@Cyber Liberty
@musiclady

You think far too highly of me. I'm only a man. But thank you for the kind words!

[TomSea]

And the above doesn't even go into some things that some black pro-lifers have said.


Black Pastor Slams Abortion: 1,800 Black Babies Killed in Abortion Each Day
National   Micaiah Bilger   Jul 26, 2017   |   5:36PM    Washington, DC
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/07/26/black-pastor-slams-abortion-1800-black-babies-killed-in-abortion-each-day/

http://blackgenocide.org/home.html

I'm sure one can find cases always for pros and cons on both sides, Moore merely said families were more united even though there was slavery.  Well, he may have been wrong but the above doesn't look too great either.

[TomSea]

@EasyAce always finds a way to bring my bead to center.   

@Cyber Liberty

Sorry, I think 1800 black babies being killed daily is a horror.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Cyber Liberty

Sorry, I think 1800 black babies being killed daily is a horror.

I wasn't aware horrors come in either/or flavors.  Could be both, you know.

[TomSea]

High incarceration rates, high crime rates in a number of cities, good luck in just picking up some news clip and thinking that dispels modern day horrors.

Maybe Moore wasn't precise but an argument could be made he wasn't far off, again, his exact words don't seem to be speaking positively for slavery or racist, that's media spin... he seemed to say families were more united during this period. Do we know if that is absolutely false?

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

If we restrict our discussion of human history to the times when slavery didn't exist, it's going to be a very short discussion.

[Smokin Joe]

If we restrict our discussion of human history to the times when slavery didn't exist, it's going to be a very short discussion.

It won't include today. Muslims still have slaves.

[Sighlass]

Like it or not, friend, it is overtly racist to look a black man in the eye and say that the days of slavery, when black families were torn to pieces by being sold and separated, were when America was "great" because families were stronger.

If one cares one whit about black families, then one doesn't make comments like this.

Either that, or he is dumber than a box of rocks, and twice as ignorant.

You don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal to know the ravages that slavery inflicted on black families.

You just have to be a decent, caring, educated person.

The fact that the accusation of racism has been abused doesn't mean the reality of it doesn't exist.

(It was stated earlier, that if Moore were a true conservative, he would have taken the opportunity to rant against LBJ's "Great Society," and how it destroyed black families.  But no.  Moore made a fool of himself with his ignorance).

@musiclady @Smokin Joe @Bigun @TomSea

Or you could of actually got the true story of what Roy Moore said instead of believing the 400 fake media reports that ran with a falsified report of what Roy Moore said.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/cnn-twists-roy-moores-comments-about-slavery-and-american-greatness/

I am not going to bother quoting it for you. If you claim to actually care about spreading truth over lies then you know what to do. Read the PJ article and compare it to what 400 other media stations put out. I would as a fellow Christian ask if you think my article from PJ was telling the truth on this subject or not. Because it directly to me proves the other media as spreading "fake news" on Roy being a racist here.

[musiclady]

@musiclady @Smokin Joe @Bigun @TomSea

Or you could of actually got the true story of what Roy Moore said instead of believing the 400 fake media reports that ran with a falsified report of what Roy Moore said.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/cnn-twists-roy-moores-comments-about-slavery-and-american-greatness/

I am not going to bother quoting it for you. If you claim to actually care about spreading truth over lies then you know what to do. Read the PJ article and compare it to what 400 other media stations put out. I would as a fellow Christian ask if you think my article from PJ was telling the truth on this subject or not. Because it directly to me proves the other media as spreading "fake news" on Roy being a racist here.

I read his exact quote and based my opinion on what his actual words were.

There is no 'fake news' involved, nor am I swayed by any form of media.

I'm not that stupid.

Please give me a little credit.

Edited to add:  I didn't even hear or read a 'media report' on this.  I went directly to his comments, with no media influence.  One has to work very hard to excuse what he said, though I have no doubt that many feel like that's what they need to do.

I stand by my words because they reflect accurately the racism in Moore's comment.

[Bigun]

I read his exact quote and based my opinion on what his actual words were.

There is no 'fake news' involved, nor am I swayed by any form of media.

I'm not that stupid.

Please give me a little credit.

So you disagree with him saying that America was better when families were united?  THAT is breathtaking!

[musiclady]

So you disagree with him saying that America was better when families were united?  THAT is breathtaking!

What's breathtaking is that you deliberately missed the whole point and said something this mindless.

He could have gone to the 1950's to make his point.  Going to the time of slavery when black families were torn apart to find a time when families were "united" was tone deaf, stupid, and ignorant.

That you agree with Moore on that, is more than breathtaking...... it's unbelievable.   You're a smart guy.  Don't act dumb just to try to be cute.

Any further comments to me on this thread will be "Mark as Read."

If anyone wants to know the TRUTH about what I've said here, look it up and read the words that are there.

I'm done with being deliberately misquoted and misinterpreted.

I've made my points clearly and repeatedly.

Enough.   

[Sighlass]

I read his exact quote and based my opinion on what his actual words were.

There is no 'fake news' involved, nor am I swayed by any form of media.

I'm not that stupid.

Please give me a little credit.

Lets look at his exact words you say is racist.

I think we've been striving for that greatness all the way through. I think you're right about that. And I think it was great in the minds of those who formed the Declaration, though they were not perfect people. They had problems. Those problems have been corrected by — unfortunately war — by constitutional amendment.

We've had to — we've corrected a lot of our problems. I think it was great at a time when families were united, even though we had slavery, they cared for one another. People were strong in the families. Our families were strong, our country had a direction, and we corrected many of the problems.

Today, I see our families divided, I see people in prison, young men, and women, that have a life ahead of them that have not been led and nurtured in the families like they used to be. And I know, I’m talking to you because you, like me, you’re an age when you remember when families used to care, when fathers used to care, when mothers used to care, and children used to care and weren’t disrespectful.

The greatness I see was in our culture, not in all our policies, there were problems — we had slavery, we’ve overcome slavery, we had prejudice, we still have prejudice. But we’ve turned the tide on civil rights, we’ve done a lot of things to bring this country around, and I think we can still make it better

Moore does not want to turn back the clock. He mentioned slavery as an evil no less than four times, noting that even at the time of the Declaration of Independence, America had "problems" that had to be solved in "unfortunately war" and by "constitutional amendment," a clear reference to slavery, the Civil War, and the Thirteenth Amendment.

Moore did not point to a time when America was "great," and call for returning to that time. Instead, Lisa Mascaro misreported the black man's question, and she truncated Moore's answer. These were understandable mistakes, but they were mistakes nonetheless -- and they have had a tremendous impact on the news cycle mere days before the December 12 election.

Moore's opponents in the media do their side no favors when they misrepresent the truth, thus undercutting their own credibility to attack him. Doug Jones did himself no favors by joining this call.

Nevertheless, they continue to do so. In September, they attacked him as racist for referencing "Jesus loves the little children." This month, they're after him for allegedly praising the bygone era of slavery.

I didn't see the racism. I don't see how you did either. What I saw was people later taking things completely out of text and it saddens me.

I found the direct audio... will try to load it in mp3 format.

[RoosGirl]

He could have said "I think it was great at the time when families were united."  That spans a lot of American history, including the first hundred years or so when slavery was allowed.  It seems to me that he, rather clumsily, tried to explain why he thought America was great even during those times of slavery and on through until the decades that all families really started being split apart.

[Frank Cannon]

So you disagree with him saying that America was better when families were united?  THAT is breathtaking!

LOL. Hey slick. That's not what he said. He said in response to Reagan saying that Russia was the focus of evil in the modern world: "You could say that about America, couldn't you?". When the shocked reporter asked him to expand on that he explained: "Same sex marriage". That isn't talking about families uniting. That's talking specifically about homosexuals. If he where talking about families uniting he would have retorted about divorce rates and out of wedlock kiddos.

Here is the full interview. It is uncut and is only 8 minutes. It's outrageous the Soviet love going on in it....

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/10/alabama-senate-race-roy-moore-vladimir-putin-russia

BTW if I were sitting in a bar and Roy said that quote openly about the US being the focus of evil, I would knock him on his fat ass and piss on his face for my own entertainment. You wanna high five an America hating shitbag, feel free, but you are not getting away with spinning this mental retards words. We got them live on Candid effing Camera.