Author Topic: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election  (Read 106931 times)

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #975 on: December 13, 2017, 10:24:24 pm »
Electric dreams.

Actually,  "Clockwork Orange."   But the sentiment applies very well in politics where huge masses of people really are led by the nose or driven by noise in the direction they are desired to go. 


What we think of as "Democracy"  is really mostly a staged drama.   You only have to manipulate the middle few percent (in most cases)  to create the outcome you prefer.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #976 on: December 13, 2017, 10:31:11 pm »

"For those screaming 'WAPO hit job' you had a candidate:

Who when asked if he dated teenagers as a 30 yr old said 'not usually'

Warned of shariah courts being established in Michigan and Illinois

Had surrogates tell a pregnant host 'Doug Jones wants to abort your baby'

Said America was better during the era of slavery.... TO A BLACK MAN

Wanted to repeal the 13th and 14th amendments

Had his wife counter charges of insensitivity towards Jews with 'my lawyer is a Jew'

Spent the final day of the campaign arguing over whether people had to take the oath of office on a Christian bible, and if homosexuality should be criminalized.

But please, please tell me how he lost due to a media hit job."


True, on top of this, it's one of the reddest states in the US, Strange or Brooks would have walked it in all likelihood.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #977 on: December 13, 2017, 10:46:54 pm »
True, on top of this, it's one of the reddest states in the US, Strange or Brooks would have walked it in all likelihood.


Or any Republican not accused of rape and child molesting and treated as if he were guilty by the members of his own party.   


Yeah,  anyone that didn't have to go through that would have walked it. 


Freakin unbelievable that people keep ignoring the f***ing elephant in the room. 


It's like i'm Mr Douglas in "Green Acres."   

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #978 on: December 13, 2017, 10:56:42 pm »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #979 on: December 13, 2017, 11:04:46 pm »

Or any Republican not accused of rape and child molesting and treated as if he were guilty by the members of his own party.   


Yeah,  anyone that didn't have to go through that would have walked it. 


Freakin unbelievable that people keep ignoring the f***ing elephant in the room. 


It's like i'm Mr Douglas in "Green Acres."
Amazing, isn't it? I'm gobsmacked at the reactions around here.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline TomSea

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #980 on: December 13, 2017, 11:06:25 pm »
I was just reading Al.com and they have an article that said Jones' first day was as a Centrist. If he wants to keep that seat 3 years from now, he may have to become a Centrist. It sounds possible.

Jones went to a Baptist Law School I understand and he's a Methodist, so we will see if he changes his demeanor any.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #981 on: December 13, 2017, 11:11:47 pm »
I was just reading Al.com and they have an article that said Jones' first day was as a Centrist. If he wants to keep that seat 3 years from now, he may have to become a Centrist. It sounds possible.

Jones went to a Baptist Law School I understand and he's a Methodist, so we will see if he changes his demeanor any.

Horse crap.  When Chuckie says "Jump!"  Jones will say, "How High?"

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #982 on: December 13, 2017, 11:25:37 pm »
Amazing, isn't it? I'm gobsmacked at the reactions around here.


It feels as if real, thinking human beings were replaced by mindless Pod people. 





Our guy get's knifed in the Front by the Democrats,  and then Knifed in the Back by the Republicans,  and then people complain he is a "flawed candidate"  because he has holes in him.


Unreal. 

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #983 on: December 13, 2017, 11:27:38 pm »
I was just reading Al.com and they have an article that said Jones' first day was as a Centrist. If he wants to keep that seat 3 years from now, he may have to become a Centrist. It sounds possible.

Jones went to a Baptist Law School I understand and he's a Methodist, so we will see if he changes his demeanor any.


What I am hearing is:


"Other than that,  Mrs Lincoln,  how did you like the play? "   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #984 on: December 14, 2017, 12:55:02 am »

I have cited specific examples where Roy has either said or was fired over being a Constitutional illiterate. Do you claim that none of that happened?

Roy Moore is a phony loudmouth and a stupid moron.....

Alabama voters restored Moore to the chief justiceship in 2012, but once again he would not finish his term. This time the issue was gay marriage. Like many, Moore feels Obergefell v. Hodges was wrongly decided, but he, further, believed that the Constitution does not require Alabama to recognize same-sex unions legalized by the decision. As in his fight over the Decalogue monument, Moore thought his opinions entitled him to disregard federal court orders. This time he went even further, publicly declaring his resistance to Obergefell and instructing state probate court judges to follow suit, even after federal courts issued orders against Alabama officials. Moore again denied the authority of federal courts, and again the Alabama judicial inquiry commission cut his term short.

@Frank Cannon ...   You say Roy Moore is a "Constitutional illiterate" and offer a liberal version of the events on his second removal as proof. 3 arguments in your article you quote... I will address only one.

Lets just say even the liberal NYsLimes takes issue with it. Stupid classless jokes and articles that don't even scrape at truth are a waste of time to read in my opinion.

Try these two articles that at least somewhat honestly get to the constitutionality of Moore's position. There is better in depth articles, but I would have to dig through a lot of junk to find them (if they are even still valid URLs).. 

Quote from: article
The problem was, the plaintiffs sued only Luther Strange, the attorney general, who is an official of the executive branch. The attorney general doesn't issue marriage licenses and doesn't oversee marriages in the state. Elected probate judges in Alabama's counties do that, and they do not work for the attorney general. In other words, Granade ordered the wrong guy to start issuing marriage licenses.

Moore saw that instantly. As head of the judicial branch, he ordered probate judges not to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. Moore's order noted that, "the United States District Court for the Southern District of Alabama has not issued an order directed to the Probate Judges of Alabama to issue marriage licenses that violate Alabama law." And indeed Judge Granade had not.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no-the-1960s-havent-returned-to-alabama/article/2560096

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/magazine/in-sort-of-defense-of-roy-moore.html

Quote from: NYTimes
..........the objections Moore is raising are shared on the United States Supreme Court by Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia — and not only because the two conservatives have opposed same-sex marriage; they are fighting over a change in the definition of marriage, yes, but also over how that change is being made.

Roy Moore is right that on its face, Granade’s order doesn’t require state probate judges all over Alabama — who weren’t named in the case Granade heard — to issue marriage licenses. Granade merely instructed Alabama’s attorney general not to enforce the state’s same-sex-marriage ban. 

Quote from: NYTimes
But it’s not fair to say that Roy Moore is acting like George Wallace. When Alabama’s segregationist governor blocked the entrance of the University of Alabama in 1963, in defiance of court-ordered integration, he was standing in the way of the Supreme Court and its desegregation ruling in Brown v. Board of Education nine years earlier — as well as a federal injunction ordering the university to admit two black students. In that case, the Supreme Court absolutely had the power to tell Alabama what to do, because it is the Supreme Court. But Judge Granade is not. And so far, at least, her order doesn’t even clearly apply to all of Alabama’s (understandably confused) probate judges. If that changes — a hearing has been set to sort this out — then they’ll know for sure it’s time to start signing marriage licenses.

In the meantime, you might even argue that Moore has done the country a favor, by making us think about the various methods for changing the law, and which are better — or at least more orderly — than others.

Your disingenuous article claims "Moore thought his opinions entitled him to disregard federal court orders.".....

The truth is the federal judge left a loophole and Moore being a good Constitutional scholar used it to defend the Alabama constitution as he was elected to do. This of course pissed off a lot of folks, so they put forth the unelected lawyer group to dismiss him because he was too witty to pin down otherwise.

There is a saying in Alabama... Bo knows... (reference to Bo Jackson knows lots of stuff)... Well Roy knows how to fight and do it constitutionally... despite how liberal media tries to spin it later on.

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« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:34:26 am by Sighlass »
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #985 on: December 14, 2017, 01:31:47 am »

There is a saying in Alabama... Bo knows... (reference to Bo Jackson knows lots of stuff)... Well Roy knows how to fight and do it constitutionally... despite how liberal media tries to spin it later on.

We have a saying in PA....Roy Moore is a shitbag.

BTW Roy couldn't fight his way out of a school of minnows. Know how I know? Because he added another humiliating defeat to his resume last night. By blaming the media on that massive loss only means one thing: Your state is full of drooling morons voters who can't figure things out on their own.

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #986 on: December 14, 2017, 01:40:32 am »
We have a saying in PA....Roy Moore is a shitbag.

BTW Roy couldn't fight his way out of a school of minnows. Know how I know? Because he added another humiliating defeat to his resume last night. By blaming the media on that massive loss only means one thing: Your state is full of drooling morons voters who can't figure things out on their own.
What would a bleep yankee know of Alabama, anyway?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #987 on: December 14, 2017, 02:23:52 am »
We have a saying in PA....Roy Moore is a shitbag.

......Know how I know?

Obviously you don't know, you just quoted an article that was out in left field about how Roy was unconstitutional after the gay issue. I am beginning to doubt you know much of anything except how to curse and flirt with the girls on site.

When the leftist NYTimes is more honest than you, something is wrong.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/magazine/in-sort-of-defense-of-roy-moore.html


« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:40:14 am by Sighlass »
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #988 on: December 14, 2017, 05:35:36 am »
Horse crap.  When Chuckie says "Jump!"  Jones will say, "How High?"

Relatively, the Democratic Senator from North Dakota, Heidi Heitkamp is not an ultra-liberal like some of the other Democratic Senators.  If Jones does act in this liberal way, he could be out after 3 years.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Heidi_Heitkamp.htm

Mixed signals, it is said ND has some pro-life Democrats, she may not pass this test depending on what source is used. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 06:12:56 am by TomSea »

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #989 on: December 14, 2017, 08:11:51 am »

Our guy get's knifed in the Front by the Democrats,  and then Knifed in the Back by the Republicans,  and then people complain he is a "flawed candidate"  because he has holes in him.


Unreal.

You're denying reality.   Kevin Davis said it brilliantly: 

Quote
"For those screaming 'WAPO hit job' you had a candidate:

Who when asked if he dated teenagers as a 30 yr old said 'not usually'

Warned of shariah courts being established in Michigan and Illinois

Had surrogates tell a pregnant host 'Doug Jones wants to abort your baby'

Said America was better during the era of slavery.... TO A BLACK MAN

Wanted to repeal the 13th and 14th amendments

Had his wife counter charges of insensitivity towards Jews with 'my lawyer is a Jew'

Spent the final day of the campaign arguing over whether people had to take the oath of office on a Christian bible, and if homosexuality should be criminalized.

But please, please tell me how he lost due to a media hit job."

And Kevin didn't even mention Moore's mendacity with respect to his "Foundation for Moral Law".   Here's how Karl Rove described it this morning:

   
Quote
a classic money grab cloaked in evangelical garb.   Most of the funds it raised through telemarketing appeals for support of traditional values were spent on fundraising costs. What remained largely went to salaries for the principals, Mr. Moore and his wife, and his advisers.  Then (surprise) it turned out he had grossly misled the public about his compensation from the enterprise. 

Gotta keep Sassy in oats, I guess - at the expense of the evangelical saps he persuaded to part with their money and their moral authority.

 
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #990 on: December 14, 2017, 08:20:07 am »
There used to be some Democrats who were classified as conservative -- usually on moral issues like abortion.  Bob Casey was Democrat governor of PA who was staunchly pro-life. 

His son Bob Jr. is senator from PA.  The media calls him "centrist" and even "conservative" like his father.  But trust me -- Junior is nothing like the old man.  Essentially, he just follows the Dem leadership. 

I don't think there are any Democrats who are centrist or conservative anymore.

The guy from West Virginia (Mnuchin?), perhaps.   Susan Collins and maybe McCain from our side.    That's just about it as far as the Senate's concerned.    Everywhere else centrists are a dying breed,  rendered irrelevant in a world where politics is all about group identity,  and compromise in the name of public service is mocked. 

Ironic, of course, in view of the reality that there are millions who are conservative on some issues and liberal on others.   Identity politics is incompatible with moderation.       
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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #991 on: December 14, 2017, 08:25:24 am »
Our guy get's knifed in the Front by the Democrats,  and then Knifed in the Back by the Republicans,  and then people complain he is a "flawed candidate"  because he has holes in him.
It had to be both to lose as a Republican in Alabama.

Even with the opposition, Moore didn't put up much of a fight, and it's always the candidate's responsibility to run his or her own campaign. He didn't campaign much, he refused to debate his opponent and (in a nutshell) underestimated what he was up against. There were plenty of things within his power that he could have done to strike back against this.
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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #992 on: December 14, 2017, 08:29:05 am »
Yaaay!  1,000 posts!
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #993 on: December 14, 2017, 08:33:51 am »
There used to be some Democrats who were classified as conservative -- usually on moral issues like abortion.  Bob Casey was Democrat governor of PA who was staunchly pro-life. 

His son Bob Jr. is senator from PA.  The media calls him "centrist" and even "conservative" like his father.  But trust me -- Junior is nothing like the old man.  Essentially, he just follows the Dem leadership. 

I don't think there are any Democrats who are centrist or conservative anymore.

In Lousiana, Democrats helped pass pro-life legislation, there's plenty more to this if one looks for it.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2016/07/27/louisiana-governor-being-pro-life-democrat-bigger-challenge-than-it-should-be

Same kind of deal in North Dakota.

It's usually more at the state level; but it's something.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #994 on: December 14, 2017, 08:39:44 am »
Moore was a flawed candidate AND he was knifed in the back.

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #995 on: December 14, 2017, 08:48:32 am »
Relatively, the Democratic Senator from North Dakota, Heidi Heitkamp is not an ultra-liberal like some of the other Democratic Senators.  If Jones does act in this liberal way, he could be out after 3 years.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Heidi_Heitkamp.htm

Mixed signals, it is said ND has some pro-life Democrats, she may not pass this test depending on what source is used.
When push comes to shove, Heitkamp will vote with the Dems. The east side of the State and the Reservations elected her. She may be a little less liberal than most, but Democrats are Democrats.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #996 on: December 14, 2017, 08:51:57 am »
Moore was a flawed candidate AND he was knifed in the back.
Keep telling yourself Moore was flawed. The electorate cannot take responsibility for its inability to discern a hit job. After all the mob is always right, and if you don't think so, they'll stone you or burn you at the stake to prove it.

Lying media and stupid voters get most of the credit, but mostly lying media.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #997 on: December 14, 2017, 08:53:06 am »
Yaaay!  1,000 posts!
Most of which came long after the election was decided, too.
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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #998 on: December 14, 2017, 08:55:42 am »
When push comes to shove, Heitkamp will vote with the Dems. The east side of the State and the Reservations elected her. She may be a little less liberal than most, but Democrats are Democrats.

And when Chuckie or Nancy tells them to jump they ask "how high" on the way up.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election
« Reply #999 on: December 14, 2017, 08:57:31 am »
When push comes to shove, Heitkamp will vote with the Dems. The east side of the State and the Reservations elected her. She may be a little less liberal than most, but Democrats are Democrats.

I'd like to see her out, I think her seat is up in 2018. Yes, it is.

They do a balancing act, they can toss out a bone to show they aren't for gun control or for a farm bill; that might get them reelected.

But at the state level in ND, they have definitely passed pro-life legislation with support from Democrats.

So, the general question seems to be, are there conservative democrats? Maybe at the state level, not really in DC.