Author Topic: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?  (Read 30965 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2016, 10:57:18 pm »
Nah.  He'd be far more palatable than Trump, to be sure, but he's not a good presidential candidate.  Put Cruz and Reagan; or Cruz and GW Bush, or even Cruz and Obama into the same room, and see who gets the attention.

Cruz has good qualities, but the "it" factor isn't there for most of us.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. And I STRONGLY disagree!
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Offline r9etb

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2016, 11:00:48 pm »
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. And I STRONGLY disagree!

I guess so.  Cruz has a lot of growing up to do before I'd seriously consider him.

Online roamer_1

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2016, 11:01:46 pm »
The TEA party movement is not, was never untended to be, and never will be a homogeneous national  movement  and rumors of  it's death are vastly exagerated.

As is the notion that TEA Partiers eschew Christian principles...

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2016, 11:02:32 pm »
Nah.  He'd be far more palatable than Trump, to be sure, but he's not a good presidential candidate.  Put Cruz and Reagan; or Cruz and GW Bush, or even Cruz and Obama into the same room, and see who gets the attention.

Cruz has good qualities, but the "it" factor isn't there for most of us.

And by "most of us," you mean "me."  I strongly doubt you speak for a large number of people.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2016, 11:03:19 pm »
Again, here's where it's helpful to compare Reagan and Cruz.  Reagan was continually vilified in a media environment that was far more constrained than what we have today, and yet he still came out on top.  Why?

I think he would have done very well, had he gotten the nomination. He did very well in convincing voters when given the opportunity, such as debates or campaigning.
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Online Bigun

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2016, 11:04:41 pm »
I guess so.  Cruz has a lot of growing up to do before I'd seriously consider him.

Perhaps it's someone other than Cruz who needs to grow up. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline montanajoe

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2016, 11:18:12 pm »
@montanajoe

The real problem is the real conservatives are pushed to the back of the room by the religious communists ....."
......

Do we really need to go through this crap again,but with the Protestants this time?

The Protestants don't have enough influence to make any difference in the national culture. So I can't see another reformation directed at Protestants.

However if Conservatives are ever going to win another Presidentiall election they need to field a canidate that can unite the social conservatives the fiscal condervatives and those favoring a strong national defense as Reagan did. Conservatives picking a canidate who only can appeal to one of thesr grroups will not win nationally and picking a democrate lite won't work either.

Many Conservatives have become so antigovernment that it may be impossibke for them to support any  canidate that could win. Many of us don't play well with others......

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2016, 11:38:17 pm »
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. And I STRONGLY disagree!

So you think he has the "it factor" even though a lot of people says he doesn't?

How does that work?  Lots of people really are bowled over by his charisma/personality, but we just don't realize it?  I just don't get it.  If people are saying that find his mannerisms and style of speaking to be off-putting, how can you argue with them?

Just because you find him personally appealing doesn't mean eveyone else has the same reaction.  And if they did have the same reaction, he'd be a lot more popular in Congress, and would likely have beaten Trump.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2016, 11:42:26 pm »
I guess so.  Cruz has a lot of growing up to do before I'd seriously consider him.

When the options are either Orange Julius (as in Ceasar) or Bubbette!?

Seriously?
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Offline musiclady

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #159 on: August 01, 2016, 11:43:53 pm »
I hope you noted I specified "big-government" and put conservative in quotes.

My problem isn't with social conservatives, per se, but with those who want to impose on others via government.  You're right...it seems many so-called Christians have never read Matthew 10:14.  Their first response is to call for Caesar to impose their will on others.

And yes...

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.


There are too many intoxicated activists.

Agree.  And I did note your specifics about big government conservatism.

Obviously, people can be both small government conservatives AND social conservatives who practice a serious Christian faith.  I see all too often an attempt to slice us in two saying that no one can be both, and that's just factually untrue.

But the problem, as you have said, is when less than fully educated, albeit mostly well meaning Christians force a very unconservative style of big government control on others, and entirely remove the concept of freedom from the equation.

I believe strongly that without morality, Constitutional democracy isn't possible, and that, I believe is where our efforts need to lie....... in returning America to a kind of integrity that was presumed in our culture before the left deliberately destroyed that integrity.

(Charles Colson has a very powerful series on returning ethics to our culture without forcing a specific kind of religion on anyone, simply called "Doing the Right Thing."  I recommend it).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 11:46:11 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #160 on: August 01, 2016, 11:47:08 pm »
The Protestants don't have enough influence to make any difference in the national culture. So I can't see another reformation directed at Protestants.

However if Conservatives are ever going to win another Presidentiall election they need to field a canidate that can unite the social conservatives the fiscal condervatives and those favoring a strong national defense as Reagan did. Conservatives picking a canidate who only can appeal to one of thesr grroups will not win nationally and picking a democrate lite won't work either.

Many Conservatives have become so antigovernment that it may be impossibke for them to support any  candidate that could win. Many of us don't play well with others......
I am not so sure it is so much anti government as anti too much and too broad a government.

One of the things I like about the Constitution Party is that there is room for Social and Fiscal Conservatives at that table, because the Constitution called for both in order for the Republic to succeed. While that did not mean the Constitution legislated morality, it did not legislate the absence of it either.

https://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/platform-and-resolutions/
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #161 on: August 01, 2016, 11:49:23 pm »
The Protestants don't have enough influence to make any difference in the national culture. So I can't see another reformation directed at Protestants.

However if Conservatives are ever going to win another Presidentiall election they need to field a canidate that can unite the social conservatives the fiscal condervatives and those favoring a strong national defense as Reagan did. Conservatives picking a canidate who only can appeal to one of thesr grroups will not win nationally and picking a democrate lite won't work either.

@montanajoe

*I* see the focus of the problem being the Protestant preachers/rev-runds who are seeking personal political power more than any other factor. THEY are where the focus on church political power comes from. They seem to envy and crave the political power the black Protestant fundie preachers have with the left.  I really don't see this being an issue with the politically conservative rank and file church member unless the preacher is pushing it for his own personal power.

Slap them down by threatening to eliminate their tax breaks and audit their personal finances,and they will shut the hell up so fast it will scare you.


>>Many Conservatives have become so antigovernment that it may be impossibke for them to support any  canidate that could win. Many of us don't play well with others......<<

Very true,but after decades of being excited and then stabbed in the back,it's hard to maintain the enthusiasm.

BTW,the Protestant preachers have PLENTY of political power in the south,and maybe in other parts of the country,too. Piss one off that isn't BatBush crazy,and find out.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 11:54:21 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #162 on: August 01, 2016, 11:55:46 pm »
Perry pushed a border wall, also.
Less than one months after his last reelection, he says "ain't gonna happen".
Turns out,  2 of his major donors, Perry Homes (no relation), and H-E-B grocery weren't too keen on stopping illegal immigration. Wonder why?
Hmmmm...
Texas folks here Know who Perry homes and H-E-B are.
FYI. I did vote for Rick Perry as Governor each time he ran.
Lesser of 2 evils, etc.
I won't vote for him as POTUS.

Yes, that's why I asked the question several times (only once of r9etb and he answered), and never got an answer from @truth_seeker.  I couldn't imagine what he saw in him.  Perry was a damned sight better than many of those early candidates, but actually vote for him for Pres?  Meh. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 12:13:10 am by Sanguine »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #163 on: August 02, 2016, 12:01:40 am »
Yep.  I have a good friend who maxed out contributing to Cruz.  He is seriously going to vote Clinton as the lesser-of-evils.  I tried to talk him into a Gary Johnson vote at least, but he's firm.

I can probably get drunk enough to vote for Trump, but I will have to have someone drive me to the polls.

There may be a lot of drunk voting going on come November.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #164 on: August 02, 2016, 12:09:40 am »
Nah.  He'd be far more palatable than Trump, to be sure, but he's not a good presidential candidate.  Put Cruz and Reagan; or Cruz and GW Bush, or even Cruz and Obama into the same room, and see who gets the attention.

Cruz has good qualities, but the "it" factor isn't there for most of us.

That's true. If that's how you pick your candidates, Cruz probably ain't "it".

Online Bigun

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #165 on: August 02, 2016, 12:11:53 am »
So you think he has the "it factor" even though a lot of people says he doesn't?

How does that work?  Lots of people really are bowled over by his charisma/personality, but we just don't realize it?  I just don't get it.  If people are saying that find his mannerisms and style of speaking to be off-putting, how can you argue with them?

Just because you find him personally appealing doesn't mean eveyone else has the same reaction.  And if they did have the same reaction, he'd be a lot more popular in Congress, and would likely have beaten Trump.

The is because YOU don't know him and won't ever be allowed to know him if the establishment can prevent it!

He is unpopular in congress because he is a threat to their rice bowl and they know it!

« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 12:12:47 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Suppressed

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #166 on: August 02, 2016, 12:22:15 am »
@musiclady
I believe strongly that without morality, Constitutional democracy isn't possible, and that, I believe is where our efforts need to lie....... in returning America to a kind of integrity that was presumed in our culture before the left deliberately destroyed that integrity.

On the flip side, our system is designed with the understanding people have flawed morality.

But I agree with your suggested push, along with education of our founding principles.  The Iraq War needed "Why we fight", and Americans need to be reminded/taught why we are who we are.  For example, why a republic.  Why the electoral college? Why the free market?  Etc.

Quote
(Charles Colson has a very powerful series on returning ethics to our culture without forcing a specific kind of religion on anyone, simply called "Doing the Right Thing."  I recommend it).

Chuck Colson was a great man. I was so sad when he died.

I'll check that out..thanks for the tip!

 
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #167 on: August 02, 2016, 12:42:48 am »
Yes, that's why I asked the question several times (only once of r9etb and he answered), and never got an answer from @truth_seeker.  I couldn't imagine what he saw in him.  Perry was a damned sight better than many of those early candidates, but actually vote for him for Pres?  Meh.

Excuse me? I answered at 2:56 pm.
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #168 on: August 02, 2016, 12:55:41 am »
Never Hillary. Never Trump. So I guess that leave a choice of Johnson, Stein or Castle.  Only the later of ALL the candidates brings conservative values and principles. So hence my voting conscience goes to Castle on principle.  Win or loose, my vote will express my values.  If this country doesn't believe in constitutional values, I guess it is just plain lost for good.  It means this country has gone to hell in a hand basket.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #169 on: August 02, 2016, 01:10:08 am »
@musiclady
On the flip side, our system is designed with the understanding people have flawed morality.

Indeed.  The understanding of the sinful nature of man is the only reason the country still stands.

Quote
But I agree with your suggested push, along with education of our founding principles.  The Iraq War needed "Why we fight", and Americans need to be reminded/taught why we are who we are.  For example, why a republic.  Why the electoral college? Why the free market?  Etc.

Wouldn't it be amazing if the basics of our country's founding were still taught in our schools?  The left, however, has a vested interest in keeping that information out of high schools, colleges and universities.  They count on an ignorant public to keep foisting their big government amoral lies on the American people.

Quote
Chuck Colson was a great man. I was so sad when he died.

I'll check that out..thanks for the tip!

Not a problem  There's a lot of food for thought in it.  It's intellectually stimulating and very well done.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #170 on: August 02, 2016, 01:30:04 am »
Excuse me? I answered at 2:56 pm.

My apologies.  I managed to miss it:
Quote
Quote from: Sanguine on Today at 03:48:06 PM
Quote
    I'm curious, @r9etb, @truth_seeker, what is it that you found compelling about Perry?  What was it that you supported?


Easy. Republican governor, with good record. Same for Perry.

(Same for Reagan, Bush II as well)

Offline r9etb

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #171 on: August 02, 2016, 01:36:07 am »
Perhaps it's someone other than Cruz who needs to grow up.

That would be you, I suppose, Mr. "I know you are but what am I?"

Offline sinkspur

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #172 on: August 02, 2016, 01:37:59 am »
Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump  2m2 minutes ago
Vast numbers of manufacturing jobs in Pennsylvania have moved to Mexico and other countries. That will end when I win!


No, Donald. It will not.  You cannot stop offshoring with EOs.
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Online Bigun

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #173 on: August 02, 2016, 01:38:14 am »
That would be you, I suppose, Mr. "I know you are but what am I?"

Or yourself!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #174 on: August 02, 2016, 01:38:30 am »
When the options are either Orange Julius (as in Ceasar) or Bubbette!?

Seriously?

I'd vote for Cruz in a New York Minute over either of those two.  But my general opinion of him remains.