So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?

[r9etb]

That's true. If that's how you pick your candidates, Cruz probably ain't "it".

"It" is certainly part of the equation, and it's an important quality in a leader.  Again I point you to how Trump's attacks made Cruz look smaller -- I seriously doubt they'd have done the same to a guy like Reagan, who'd have put Trump away for good with one long look and an offhand quip.  Because he had "it."

As I've said before on this thread, though: mainly it's that I distrust Cruz, who seems to me to be unduly ambitious with no basis in experience or accomplishments to justify it.  And his eagerness to take the big prize too early makes him weak.

[DiogenesLamp]

So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?

Nothing.   Trump is acting exactly as I have been expecting.    The only surprise for me is how many conservatives tossed the man who had actually been fighting for us (Ted Cruz) aside and took up with Donald Trump. 


That was a bit of a shock.   And for some reason,   they expect a New York Liberal Democrat to suddenly be a "conservative"  Republican.   


The only bit that has reassured me so far is the list of Judges Trump submitted,   but that could just be a ploy as well.   



Still,  he's better than Hillary. 

[DiogenesLamp]

"It" is certainly part of the equation, and it's an important quality in a leader.  Again I point you to how Trump's attacks made Cruz look smaller -- I seriously doubt they'd have done the same to a guy like Reagan, who'd have put Trump away for good with one long look and an offhand quip.  Because he had "it."

As I've said before on this thread, though: mainly it's that I distrust Cruz, who seems to me to be unduly ambitious with no basis in experience or accomplishments to justify it.  And his eagerness to take the big prize too early makes him weak.

I don't begrudge Cruz his ambition and haste to get in.    If he is like most conservatives,   he sees that the need to quickly grab the ship's wheel is dire.    Trump is just doing it to stroke his big ego.   


We are going in a bad direction  and something needs to be done as soon as is possible.   

[r9etb]

I don't begrudge Cruz his ambition and haste to get in.    If he is like most conservatives,   he sees that the need to quickly grab the ship's wheel is dire.    Trump is just doing it to stroke his big ego. 

 

True on Trump... but if we're to credit stories about his reputation among the other R's in the Senate, Cruz isn't exactly shy about putting his own ambitions first, either.

We are going in a bad direction  and something needs to be done as soon as is possible.

We are going in a very bad direction.  It may be that we're too late to avoid the rocks.  Maybe if we pray for a meteor to strike the first debate... Pence vs. Kain might be a pretty good race.

[Idiot]

Then this is a matter of personal taste.  I worked for Reagan in the 1980 primary, and voted for him in '80 and '84.  Cruz does not have Reagan's "style".  He holds many of the same positions, but has a personal style that tends to alienate a lot of people.  That is the exact opposite of Reagan, who mixed conservative believes and resolve with humor and charisma.  Even many people who disliked Reagan's policies liked the man himself.  In contrast, there are a lot of people who like Cruz' policies and still don't like the guy.

To put it differently, I don't believe that all the other Republican members of Congress who disliked Cruz did so because of his policy beliefs.  His mannerisms suggest that either you agree with him, or you favor the destruction of the country.  You cannot convince fence-sitters with that attitude.

Actually you pretty well hit the nail on the head.  I have a close relative that worked for former Gov. Perry.  In working for Perry he came to know a few people in the Solicitor General's office (Cruz).  They absolutely couldn't stand Cruz even though they worked for him.  I argued and argued with this relative about how great Cruz was and I just could never come to believe that Cruz was so unlikable.  Well it turns out that Cruz is a GREAT SENATOR, but as we've all seen he does have some personality issues.  He is no Reagan.  I just can't see him ever being elected president.

[sinkspur]

We know that Trump doesn't speak so good:

[DiogenesLamp]

 

True on Trump... but if we're to credit stories about his reputation among the other R's in the Senate, Cruz isn't exactly shy about putting his own ambitions first, either.

If you can name one of his co-Senators about which I should give a bucket of warm piss,   then I will concede you have a point,   but my recollection is that the vast bulk of the worthless bastards did nothing to help him filibuster  the budget,   so for making them look bad,   I  am not at all surprised that they would attempt to make him look bad. 

I trust Cruz to do what is right a lot more than I trust those other worthless geldings.    He at least stood up for us. 
   

[r9etb]

If you can name one of his co-Senators about which I should give a bucket of warm piss,   then I will concede you have a point,   but my recollection is that the vast bulk of the worthless bastards did nothing to help him filibuster  the budget,   so for making them look bad,   I  am not at all surprised that they would attempt to make him look bad. 

I trust Cruz to do what is right a lot more than I trust those other worthless geldings.    He at least stood up for us. 
 

The problem is that, piss-buckets or no, in a representative system such as ours, the work of politics gets done by forging relationships with others, and Cruz has failed to do so.  The dynamic is a bit different for a president, but the truly effective presidents have all made it a point to forge relationships with various groups in Congress.  (Happily, Obama never did learn that lesson...)

[Smokin Joe]

As I've said before on this thread, though: mainly it's that I distrust Cruz, who seems to me to be unduly ambitious with no basis in experience or accomplishments to justify it.  And his eagerness to take the big prize too early makes him weak.

I dunno, was Trump even class president in school? Has he read the Constitution? All of it? Does he know how a Bill becomes law? When did he reach for the 'big prize' in his field? Real estate deals with armies of marketing people and lawyers to hammer out the details are one thing, the objective is clear--everyone makes money.

Political objectives are not always so direct. Cruz had put in his time in those trenches and knows how the process works, even if he met resistance (from supposed allies who were elected to do the same things but did not). In political situations not everyone will necessarily comes out ahead. There are sacred cows to be butchered and oxen to be gored. Otherwise, we all pay for it.

What dues do you think Cruz didn't pay? Why do you consider his political experience to be worth less than Donny's?
Sticking to principle in the midst of that isn't easy, and is not conducive to making friends.

[libertybele]

"It" is certainly part of the equation, and it's an important quality in a leader.  Again I point you to how Trump's attacks made Cruz look smaller -- I seriously doubt they'd have done the same to a guy like Reagan, who'd have put Trump away for good with one long look and an offhand quip.  Because he had "it."

As I've said before on this thread, though: mainly it's that I distrust Cruz, who seems to me to be unduly ambitious with no basis in experience or accomplishments to justify it.  And his eagerness to take the big prize too early makes him weak.

Cruz has no experience or accomplishments to justify his ambitions and eagerness?  Perhaps instead of forming 'loose' opinions based on what Trump and the MSM project about Cruz, you might want to do a little research on the guy.  Perhaps you might want to do yourself a favor as well and read his book; "A Time For Truth".  Then come back and and again try to convince me how he lacks the experience and accomplishments to justify his ambitions. 

[sinkspur]

[r9etb]

What dues do you think Cruz didn't pay? Why do you consider his political experience to be worth less than Donny's?

Getting the requisite experience would have been a nice start.  Hell, even running for and winning re-election would be something.... but he's only been in for two years.  (Sort of like a current pResident we know....)

Sticking to principle in the midst of that isn't easy, and is not conducive to making friends.

Having principles is great.  Putting them in practice better, and isn't something a politician can do by himself: he needs to make friends.  The fact that he hasn't bothered to do so speaks volumes to me.

[Chosen Daughter]

There is so much "sky is falling/party is destroyed" whining that it gets very old after awhile.

The truth is pretty simple.  This was a one-off election caused primarily by the party ignoring voters on the issue of immigration.  Trump jumped louder and harder on that issue than anyone else, and because of his vulgarity, convinced a lot of voters that he didn't care if he pissed off the elites who disagreed on immigration.  That made him credible on that issue to them.

It's unfortunate, and I personally wish it hadn't come out this way.  But that's what happened, and the Bushes, and Romneys, and the rest of the elites at war with the people who voted for Trump should look in the mirror.  They made/caused him.

In my opinion, the most mature response is to ride this election out, and vote for Trump or not as your own conscience dictates.  But the knuckleheads in the party elite who think that publicly opposing Trump is the way to fix the party are being petulant jerks.  The net result of that will be to permanently alienate a huge, necessary swathe of voters who will sit out in 2020 no matter who is nominated.  It will be handing permanent majorities to the Democrats for the foreseeable future.

Conservatives and elites both got their butts kicked this election cycle by the populists.  We can either run away, or regroup and come back next time.  Those kind of intra-party fights are based on impermanent, temporary majorities/pluralities heavily dependent upon candidate charisma, and issues peculiar to each election cycle.  Just because you won or lost this one doesn't mean the same will happen next time.

But it looks to me that many of us are choosing to cut and run rather than fight and regroup, which I think does not bode well for conservatism moving forward.

Trump may have jumped on the immigration issue but he scammed Americans.  Who hires H2B?  Trump.  Who hires illegals?  Trump.

[r9etb]

Cruz has no experience or accomplishments to justify his ambitions and eagerness?  Perhaps instead of forming 'loose' opinions based on what Trump and the MSM project about Cruz, you might want to do a little research on the guy.  Perhaps you might want to do yourself a favor as well and read his book; "A Time For Truth".  Then come back and and again try to convince me how he lacks the experience and accomplishments to justify his ambitions.

What actual accomplishments would you care to name?  His vast slate of legislative achievement?  His status as a respected statesman?  His years of executive experience?  His ability to create and work with political alliances? 

By comparison to at what guys like Reagan, or even Walker, Kasich, or Perry accomplished before running for president... Cruz doesn't come close.  His appeal comes from what he says -- nice things, to be sure, and worthy of praise, but there's nothing in what he's done so far that suggests he'd be able to put words into action.

[sinkspur]

Trump's lies have always been there.

[libertybele]

What actual accomplishments would you care to name?  His vast slate of legislative achievement?  His status as a respected statesman?  His years of executive experience?  His ability to create and work with political alliances? 

By comparison to at what guys like Reagan, or even Walker, Kasich, or Perry accomplished before running for president... Cruz doesn't come close.  His appeal comes from what he says -- nice things, to be sure, and worthy of praise, but there's nothing in what he's done so far that suggests he'd be able to put words into action.

Again - do your research. You will be amazed.

[r9etb]

Again - do your research. You will be amazed.

His vast slate of legislative achievement?  His status as a respected statesman?  His years of executive experience?  His ability to create and work with political alliances? 

Pick one and enlighten me.

[DiogenesLamp]

The problem is that, piss-buckets or no, in a representative system such as ours, the work of politics gets done by forging relationships with others, and Cruz has failed to do so.

You must mistake me if you think I desire to see the work of government getting done when it involves giving the "Precedent"  further continuing resolutions to allow this silly bastard to spend even more money of the sort that he has never earned in his life. 


I want a monkey wrench thrown into these works of government,  and I was only too happy to finally see someone with a set of balls willing to stall it.   


This is corrupt government,  and it already isn't working,   and I don't want coalitions formed to keep this sort of corrupt government from continuing in it's corrupt operations.    I want it all grounded to a halt.   

 The dynamic is a bit different for a president, but the truly effective presidents have all made it a point to forge relationships with various groups in Congress.  (Happily, Obama never did learn that lesson...)

And in what manner does the country ever prosper when people cooperate for the furtherance of Democrat agendas?   

[DiogenesLamp]

Having principles is great.  Putting them in practice better, and isn't something a politician can do by himself: he needs to make friends.  The fact that he hasn't bothered to do so speaks volumes to me.

Me too.   It says he hadn't yet become a member of the "good ole boy"  club that has been screwing us over for years.     


That they are pissed at him for filibustering the "continuing resolution"   to give Affirmative Action man more power to spend money of the sort that the lazy @$$ has never earned honestly in his life,   is so much the worse for them.    It demonstrates they aren't serious about reigning in this out of control fool who has been thrust into the office of the Presidency only because he is a color that gives media people orgasms. 

[sneakypete]

 

True on Trump... but if we're to credit stories about his reputation among the other R's in the Senate, Cruz isn't exactly shy about putting his own ambitions first, either.


We are going in a very bad direction.  It may be that we're too late to avoid the rocks.  Maybe if we pray for a meteor to strike the first debate... Pence vs. Kain might be a pretty good race.

@r9etb

The ONLY think that will fix what is wrong with the US Senate is to stand outside when they end  a session,and grab the first 50 of the bastards leaving and hang them and leave them to rot as an example to the remaining 50 and the 50 replacements that the business of America is why they are there,not their own personal business.  Right now they amount to the worlds smallest organized crime organization.

[Chosen Daughter]

We know that Trump doesn't speak so good:

OK this is so good Donald I couldn't resist.   You did so good Donald I have to write about it.  Good job!  Being a child.

Who could make this stuff up.  A grown man running for President looking for pat on the back good job.  A man would have confidence and know when he has done well and build on it.  Donald is stuck trying to get revenge cause the meanies didn't tell him good job.

[Smokin Joe]

Getting the requisite experience would have been a nice start.  Hell, even running for and winning re-election would be something.... but he's only been in for two years.  (Sort of like a current pResident we know....)

Obama has been in for seven years, not two. Not sure who you are comparing Cruz to, there.

Having principles is great.  Putting them in practice better, and isn't something a politician can do by himself: he needs to make friends.  The fact that he hasn't bothered to do so speaks volumes to me.

Making friends and compromising principles are two different things. I can get along with most anyone, and have, but don't ask me to cross a line. There are things I will not do. My friends won't ask. Anyone who won't be my friend because I will not compromise my principles never was a friend.

Consider, now that speaks as much to the nature of the very GOPe and Democrat infested institution which caved on Obama request after Obama request as if Harry Reid was running the place.

Standing in opposition to that, as Cruz had been elected to do, would be a lonely place, and if that acquiescence was a requirement of being a 'friend', I'll take the guy who stands on principle every time. I'm not looking for 'Miss Popularity' in the White House, I'm looking for someone who will stand up for the principles set forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Going along to get along brought us the useless Congress we have now.

[DiogenesLamp]

His vast slate of legislative achievement?  His status as a respected statesman?  His years of executive experience?  His ability to create and work with political alliances? 

Pick one and enlighten me.

Two things come to mind.   One is his support for the second Amendment in DC v Heller.   


And other cases. 

Cruz is no stranger to the nation’s highest court. As the solicitor general of Texas, he found himself arguing some of the most consequential cases of the last decade. On his Senate webpage, he lists six cases that established “landmark national victories”:

    U.S. sovereignty against the United Nations and the World Court in Medellin v. Texas;
    The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms;
    The constitutionality of the Texas Ten Commandments monument;
    The constitutionality of the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance;
    The constitutionality of the Texas Sexually Violent Predator Civil Commitment law; and
    The Texas congressional redistricting plan.

Cruz has filed more than 80 briefs in Supreme Court cases, including one defending Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Specialties. Sens. John Cornyn (R–Texas), Mike Lee (R –Utah) and David Vitter (R–La.), also signed that amicus brief.

The other is the fact that he was the only one with enough guts to attempt to reign in the naked emperor with his "continuing resolution"  and "Obamacare" filibuster. 





Everyone else was gutless. 


As for calling it a victory?  I think Mal Reynolds said it best. 

[Suppressed]

As for calling it a victory?  I think Mal Reynolds said it best. 

Reynolds/Washburne is a ticket I could back!

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The problem is that, piss-buckets or no, in a representative system such as ours, the work of politics gets done by forging relationships with others, and Cruz has failed to do so.  The dynamic is a bit different for a president, but the truly effective presidents have all made it a point to forge relationships with various groups in Congress.  (Happily, Obama never did learn that lesson...)

This is exactly right.  While we would prefer some intellectual idyll where everyone made decisions based on reasoned logic, that isn't reality.  The ability to cajole, persuade, and forge alliances is an absolutely critical skill for any politician.  Otherwise, you will never be able to persuade the fence-sitters whose support may often be key.  In fact, you may end up being aligned with people on some issues, but people may still refuse to join you out of simple spite.

That's always been the story of politics.  Just being right is not enough.  And if people don't want to accept that, then they might as well abandon democratic systems altogether.