Author Topic: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?  (Read 31071 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #200 on: August 02, 2016, 05:16:43 am »
This is exactly right.  While we would prefer some intellectual idyll where everyone made decisions based on reasoned logic, that isn't reality.  The ability to cajole, persuade, and forge alliances is an absolutely critical skill for any politician.  Otherwise, you will never be able to persuade the fence-sitters whose support may often be key.  In fact, you may end up being aligned with people on some issues, but people may still refuse to join you out of simple spite.

That's always been the story of politics.  Just being right is not enough.  And if people don't want to accept that, then they might as well abandon democratic systems altogether.
The reality is that you want to forge something you start with some appropriate raw material. You want to make a sword, you need the right material. Most of the Congress is just wet crap. Go ahead and blame Cruz if you want to, it's like blaming the one-eyed man in the land of the blind because none of the rest believe the elephant he sees exists.

Our whole civilization has bases on the acts of single men, be that Moses, Jesus, Galileo, Columbus, Billy Mitchell, or a host of others who didn't 'go along to get along', they were simply right.

The one with the guts to stand up and say, "The emperor is naked!" seldom gets either accolades nor credit. When you are right you stick to your guns and let those who are wrong show their mettle.

Cruz has done that. Whether or not you have any admiration for that, whether that incites you to send people to Washington who will work with him instead of sit on the sidelines going 'tut-tut" and blaming Cruz speaks volumes about you.

Immigration is hardly the only issue the GOP has ignored the voters on, consider the TEA party movement (still lurking out there) sent people to Congress or supported their election on a promise of fiscal responsibility. Cruz stood up for that. Where were the rest?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #201 on: August 02, 2016, 05:33:01 am »
Quote
But it looks to me that many of us are choosing to cut and run rather than fight and regroup, which I think does not bode well for conservatism moving forward.
I do not think hanging around a party which just took a whirl on the dance floor with the populists will advance Conservative causes one bit. Reagan was the one-off.
The GOP has not been Conservative for a long, long time, even if it pays the same meaningless lip service to conservative causes every election year (or doesn't even bother, thinking  "Where else are you going to go?).
Conservative causes have not advanced, but Democrat/Liberal ones have made inexorable progress, even with Republicans holding key positions in the Congress and/or the White House. Every compromise, Conservatives come out holding the nasty end of the stick.

Sorry, but how many times are Conservatives going to keep hitting that button and expect a different result? Time to face the facts:

The GOP has failed to advance Conservative causes, has failed to stand fast for fiscal responsibility, has failed to play hardball with Obama, has failed to repeal Obamacare, has failed to secure the borders, has failed to stop the abortion juggernaut, has failed to make government smaller, has failed to reduce the national debt, has failed in EVERY Conservative cause.

So what does voting for that get us?

ZILCH!

I really don't give a flying monkey's gas content about the GOP. I am for building another Party, one already basically aligned with the Constitutional principles which would guarantee that Conservative issues are addressed, mainly because the biggest problems with our current Federal Government stem from a combination of Governmental overreach (activities NOT authorized by the Constitution) and the abdication of the DUTIES given it by that same Constitution.

That is why, when the GOP left me (I haven't changed my positions on issues), I decided the Constitution Party is a better option. It will take time to build it up, but if those who have principles will at least consider it, I think it could become a major force in American Politics.


How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline catfish1957

  • If you are a democrat.... You are my enemy. We will never forget May 30, 2024. FJB
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,991
  • Gender: Male
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #202 on: August 02, 2016, 10:56:43 am »
Frankly I'm feeling vindicated.

Same here, with a little help, within the last week I have rescued 6 people  alone from the Trump Train.

I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,226
  • Gender: Female
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #203 on: August 02, 2016, 01:07:14 pm »
I do not think hanging around a party which just took a whirl on the dance floor with the populists will advance Conservative causes one bit. Reagan was the one-off.
The GOP has not been Conservative for a long, long time, even if it pays the same meaningless lip service to conservative causes every election year (or doesn't even bother, thinking  "Where else are you going to go?).
Conservative causes have not advanced, but Democrat/Liberal ones have made inexorable progress, even with Republicans holding key positions in the Congress and/or the White House. Every compromise, Conservatives come out holding the nasty end of the stick.

Sorry, but how many times are Conservatives going to keep hitting that button and expect a different result? Time to face the facts:

The GOP has failed to advance Conservative causes, has failed to stand fast for fiscal responsibility, has failed to play hardball with Obama, has failed to repeal Obamacare, has failed to secure the borders, has failed to stop the abortion juggernaut, has failed to make government smaller, has failed to reduce the national debt, has failed in EVERY Conservative cause.


As Cruz pointed out ... it is in part FAILED leadership that has in essence destroyed the party.  You cannot have a Senate Majority leader who lies to his own members and continually sides with the other party and expect the results to favor the party.  Likewise, we have also witnessed the Speaker of the House continually siding with the left.

RINO's are part of the Washington cartel.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 01:07:34 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,960
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #204 on: August 02, 2016, 01:12:41 pm »
I do not think hanging around a party which just took a whirl on the dance floor with the populists will advance Conservative causes one bit. Reagan was the one-off.
The GOP has not been Conservative for a long, long time, even if it pays the same meaningless lip service to conservative causes every election year (or doesn't even bother, thinking  "Where else are you going to go?).
Conservative causes have not advanced, but Democrat/Liberal ones have made inexorable progress, even with Republicans holding key positions in the Congress and/or the White House. Every compromise, Conservatives come out holding the nasty end of the stick.

Sorry, but how many times are Conservatives going to keep hitting that button and expect a different result? Time to face the facts:

The GOP has failed to advance Conservative causes, has failed to stand fast for fiscal responsibility, has failed to play hardball with Obama, has failed to repeal Obamacare, has failed to secure the borders, has failed to stop the abortion juggernaut, has failed to make government smaller, has failed to reduce the national debt, has failed in EVERY Conservative cause.

So what does voting for that get us?

ZILCH!

I really don't give a flying monkey's gas content about the GOP. I am for building another Party, one already basically aligned with the Constitutional principles which would guarantee that Conservative issues are addressed, mainly because the biggest problems with our current Federal Government stem from a combination of Governmental overreach (activities NOT authorized by the Constitution) and the abdication of the DUTIES given it by that same Constitution.

That is why, when the GOP left me (I haven't changed my positions on issues), I decided the Constitution Party is a better option. It will take time to build it up, but if those who have principles will at least consider it, I think it could become a major force in American Politics.

B R A V O ! ! !

 :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Wingnut

  • Guest
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #205 on: August 02, 2016, 01:20:05 pm »
Same here, with a little help, within the last week I have rescued 6 people  alone from the Trump Train.



Did you have to employ the Bill Cosby method on them, or did the go willingly?

Offline catfish1957

  • If you are a democrat.... You are my enemy. We will never forget May 30, 2024. FJB
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,991
  • Gender: Male
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #206 on: August 02, 2016, 02:45:06 pm »
Did you have to employ the Bill Cosby method on them, or did the go willingly?

5 of the 6 were leaners, and used a hand written 8 point dossier to basically show that Trump can't trusted even on his so called core issues.  Add about 5 of his worst face palm moments..........

6th one who a a die hard Trump supporter...   emailed her a copy of Constitution party's platform.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,037
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #207 on: August 02, 2016, 03:05:02 pm »
The reality is that you want to forge something you start with some appropriate raw material. You want to make a sword, you need the right material. Most of the Congress is just wet crap.

You are not going to get wholesale turnover in Congress. I wish we had 51 Ted Cruzes in the Senate, but that is not going to happen.   So either you figure out a way to lead/inspire other members, or you sit smug and self-satisfied as a coalition of one in a chamber of a hundred.

Quote
Go ahead and blame Cruz if you want to, it's like blaming the one-eyed man in the land of the blind because none of the rest believe the elephant he sees exists.

The one-eyed man can either attempt to lead the blind, or mock them.  I think Cruz has chosen the latter route.

Quote
Our whole civilization has bases on the acts of single men, be that Moses, Jesus, Galileo, Columbus, Billy Mitchell, or a host of others who didn't 'go along to get along', they were simply right.  And none of them were politicians in a democratic system, where you need majority support to accomplish anything.  Cruz martyring himself won't get him or anyone else elected to higher office.  The one with the guts to stand up and say, "The emperor is naked!" seldom gets either accolades nor credit. When you are right you stick to your guns and let those who are wrong show their mettle.

None of the people you mentioned were politicians working within a democratic system.  That is the profession Cruz has chosen, and that requires votes to be successful.  Your "man standing alone" image sounds wonderful, but it is not how democracy works.  Being right, but lacking the ability to persuade others to your point of view, is of little value to a political leader.  It would be different if we were living in an overwhelmingly conservative country that elected conservatives, because persuading people to conservatism wouldn't be necessary.  But we aren't, and it is.

Quote
Whether or not you have any admiration for that, whether that incites you to send people to Washington who will work with him instead of sit on the sidelines going 'tut-tut" and blaming Cruz speaks volumes about you.

I admire the principles for which he stands, and I've voted for like-minded people.  But that is not enough, because the people who think as we do are not the majority.

Cruz is right on most of the issues, but his political skills are insufficient. Given that he has chosen a career as a politician, his lack of ability to appeal to those who don't already share his views is a major drawback.  But if you don't care if the guy you support is able to persuade others, and him simply being "right" is enough even if it means losing elections, then that speaks volumes about you.  You'd prefer a martyr rather than actually fixing the country.

Quote
Immigration is hardly the only issue the GOP has ignored the voters on....

I think it was the primary one that enabled the Trump movement.  Trump doesn't say squat about fiscal discipline, and got 40% of the votes anyway.  It was immigration, coupled with his defiance of political correctness, that was the vehicle he road to the nomination.  If you disagree, fine.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 03:16:19 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,037
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #208 on: August 02, 2016, 03:11:18 pm »
I do not think hanging around a party which just took a whirl on the dance floor with the populists will advance Conservative causes one bit. Reagan was the one-off.
The GOP has not been Conservative for a long, long time, even if it pays the same meaningless lip service to conservative causes every election year (or doesn't even bother, thinking  "Where else are you going to go?).
Conservative causes have not advanced, but Democrat/Liberal ones have made inexorable progress, even with Republicans holding key positions in the Congress and/or the White House. Every compromise, Conservatives come out holding the nasty end of the stick.

Sorry, but how many times are Conservatives going to keep hitting that button and expect a different result? Time to face the facts:

The GOP has failed to advance Conservative causes, has failed to stand fast for fiscal responsibility, has failed to play hardball with Obama, has failed to repeal Obamacare, has failed to secure the borders, has failed to stop the abortion juggernaut, has failed to make government smaller, has failed to reduce the national debt, has failed in EVERY Conservative cause.

So what does voting for that get us?

ZILCH!

I really don't give a flying monkey's gas content about the GOP. I am for building another Party, one already basically aligned with the Constitutional principles which would guarantee that Conservative issues are addressed, mainly because the biggest problems with our current Federal Government stem from a combination of Governmental overreach (activities NOT authorized by the Constitution) and the abdication of the DUTIES given it by that same Constitution.

That is why, when the GOP left me (I haven't changed my positions on issues), I decided the Constitution Party is a better option. It will take time to build it up, but if those who have principles will at least consider it, I think it could become a major force in American Politics.

The problem is that there just aren't enough people who fit your definition of "conservative" to win anything on their own, even if every single one of them joined the Constitution Party.  People love to cite polls to show how many "conservatives" are in the country, but then in other contexts, attack other self-described conservatives for not being 'true" conservatives.  The latter argument eats the former.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,924
  • Gender: Male
  • Ride for the Brand - Joshua 24:15
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #209 on: August 02, 2016, 04:13:08 pm »
That's true. If that's how you pick your candidates, Cruz probably ain't "it".
I can imagine a lot of presidents that didn't have "it". Lincoln, Coolidge, and a host quiet unassuming types who rose to greatness. Afterall we should judge people based on "it" and not on character.

Is it anywonder we ended up with a Reality TV actor as a candidate? The only way to get more "it" would be to have William Shatner run (He can't he's Canadian).
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,924
  • Gender: Male
  • Ride for the Brand - Joshua 24:15
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #210 on: August 02, 2016, 04:15:33 pm »
Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump  2m2 minutes ago
Vast numbers of manufacturing jobs in Pennsylvania have moved to Mexico and other countries. That will end when I win!


No, Donald. It will not.  You cannot stop offshoring with EOs.
What a buch of malarky. He needs to get the visa paperwork out of his own eye.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline JonRock

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #211 on: August 02, 2016, 04:22:15 pm »
That we need to build a wall to keep out all the Liberal idiots!!!!!!! The Liberals will ruin everything we conservatives have worked for. If Hillary become president, America will fall to Putin and the Commies to the West 

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,924
  • Gender: Male
  • Ride for the Brand - Joshua 24:15
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #212 on: August 02, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »
That we need to build a wall to keep out all the Liberal idiots!!!!!!! The Liberals will ruin everything we conservatives have worked for. If Hillary become president, America will fall to Putin and the Commies to the West
Welcome. Are you a FR castaway? Either way welcome!  :seeya:
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #213 on: August 02, 2016, 07:56:10 pm »
That we need to build a wall to keep out all the Liberal idiots!!!!!!! The Liberals will ruin everything we conservatives have worked for. If Hillary become president, America will fall to Putin and the Commies to the West
By the time the wall gets built, the machine guns will be facing inward, not toward some other country.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Taxcontrol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 651
  • Gender: Male
  • "Stupid should hurt" - Dad's wisdom
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #214 on: September 02, 2016, 03:09:38 pm »
I do not think hanging around a party which just took a whirl on the dance floor with the populists will advance Conservative causes one bit. Reagan was the one-off.
The GOP has not been Conservative for a long, long time, even if it pays the same meaningless lip service to conservative causes every election year (or doesn't even bother, thinking  "Where else are you going to go?).
Conservative causes have not advanced, but Democrat/Liberal ones have made inexorable progress, even with Republicans holding key positions in the Congress and/or the White House. Every compromise, Conservatives come out holding the nasty end of the stick.

Sorry, but how many times are Conservatives going to keep hitting that button and expect a different result? Time to face the facts:

The GOP has failed to advance Conservative causes, has failed to stand fast for fiscal responsibility, has failed to play hardball with Obama, has failed to repeal Obamacare, has failed to secure the borders, has failed to stop the abortion juggernaut, has failed to make government smaller, has failed to reduce the national debt, has failed in EVERY Conservative cause.

So what does voting for that get us?

ZILCH!

I really don't give a flying monkey's gas content about the GOP. I am for building another Party, one already basically aligned with the Constitutional principles which would guarantee that Conservative issues are addressed, mainly because the biggest problems with our current Federal Government stem from a combination of Governmental overreach (activities NOT authorized by the Constitution) and the abdication of the DUTIES given it by that same Constitution.

That is why, when the GOP left me (I haven't changed my positions on issues), I decided the Constitution Party is a better option. It will take time to build it up, but if those who have principles will at least consider it, I think it could become a major force in American Politics.




 :amen:  :amen:  :amen:

I too switched my affiliation to the Constitution Party.  I am now actively trying to get others to join me.  I worked with and for the GOP for the better part of 25 years.  Even served as a precinct captain.  No longer.  Perhaps it took me a long time, but I finally realized that the problem was not the candidates but rather the PARTY.

Offline unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,124
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #215 on: September 02, 2016, 04:51:03 pm »

I hope Cruz can eventually make it back in the future, in some way, and in a big way. He is still young. Hopefully he can learn something from this, whatever that may be. But he is brilliant and we really need him in some sort of large, powerful way.



I won't be here after the election and vote.

If Hillary wins - I will be busy, BLOAT! (It won't be long before she won't let you buy.)

If Trump wins, I won't be here to GLOAT. (I don't want to hang around while everyone looks at every speck in his eye.)

Offline libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,226
  • Gender: Female
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #216 on: September 02, 2016, 04:58:52 pm »
I hope Cruz can eventually make it back in the future, in some way, and in a big way. He is still young. Hopefully he can learn something from this, whatever that may be. But he is brilliant and we really need him in some sort of large, powerful way.

IMHO, the establishment, Trump, liberal media and others are out to make sure that Cruz doesn't get re-elected in 2018.  By then, I expect full amnesty and voting privileges to be granted to millions thus dramatically increasing the DEM voters and see his chances as slim under the Republican umbrella.

My hope is that Cruz sees the writing on the wall and joins the Constitution Party and runs in 2020.  He has a great ground game and his support base is significant in number.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 04:59:45 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline montanajoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,324
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #217 on: September 02, 2016, 06:06:57 pm »
IMHO, the establishment, Trump, liberal media and others are out to make sure that Cruz doesn't get re-elected in 2018.  By then, I expect full amnesty and voting privileges to be granted to millions thus dramatically increasing the DEM voters and see his chances as slim under the Republican umbrella.

My hope is that Cruz sees the writing on the wall and joins the Constitution Party and runs in 2020.  He has a great ground game and his support base is significant in number.

This election has clearly shown that a Conservative, as the term was traditionally used, cannot win the nomination in 2016 and beyond in the Republican party. Win or lose Trump might just be push that the Conservatives of this country need to finally get serious about a 3rd party..
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 06:07:51 pm by montanajoe »

Offline unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,124
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #218 on: September 02, 2016, 06:11:04 pm »
This election has clearly shown that a Conservative, as the term was traditionally used, cannot win the nomination in 2016 and beyond in the Republican party. Win or lose Trump might just be push that the Conservatives of this country need to finally get serious about a 3rd party..

We won't survive.


I won't be here after the election and vote.

If Hillary wins - I will be busy, BLOAT! (It won't be long before she won't let you buy.)

If Trump wins, I won't be here to GLOAT. (I don't want to hang around while everyone looks at every speck in his eye.)

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #219 on: September 02, 2016, 06:27:17 pm »
We won't survive.
We definitely will not if we don't try.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,467
  • Gender: Male
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #220 on: September 02, 2016, 06:38:12 pm »
This election has clearly shown that a Conservative, as the term was traditionally used, cannot win the nomination in 2016 and beyond in the Republican party.

That's primarily because John Q. Public has not seen a clearly-articulated case for conservatism; at least, not for a long time.  It's not enough to rely on a guy like Ted Cruz to shout about it during the primaries (where few listen in any case) -- it's a case that has to be made continually, not just during election years.

Offline montanajoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,324
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #221 on: September 02, 2016, 06:39:45 pm »
We definitely will not if we don't try.

The Country has survived far worse than Trump or Hilliary and it will survive regardless of who is elected.

I honestly can't figure where the people who say the country won't survive either candidate, live. How is it possible that any president makes such a daily impact on anyone's life that they think electing the other will make things hunky dory is beyond me.

What is needed is tens of millions of people committed to traditional Conservative values and carrying out that commitment 24/7/365 to those values, to make any change in the direction of the country, electing one individual ain't gonna cut it

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,081
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #222 on: September 02, 2016, 06:46:51 pm »
The Country has survived far worse than Trump or Hilliary and it will survive regardless of who is elected.

I honestly can't figure where the people who say the country won't survive either candidate, live. How is it possible that any president makes such a daily impact on anyone's life that they think electing the other will make things hunky dory is beyond me.

What is needed is tens of millions of people committed to traditional Conservative values and carrying out that commitment 24/7/365 to those values, to make any change in the direction of the country, electing one individual ain't gonna cut it
You are right. The problem is that a Trump victory will pretty much wipe out the Conservatives in the GOP.
 They have been crying that the candidate was 'too conservative to win' for a while now, and if Trump wins, it will be a contest of liberals for the foreseeable future.

That's why it is going to take time. If we are going to overhaul the Constitutional Republic we should have, we are going to have to start with the people and work our way up. A top down solution won't accomplish much for long. The POTUS is limited in power, especially if the Congress has the sand to remind them of the fact. We have had bad ones before. Better to vote our conscience and try to build a viable conservative party. The Constitution Party platform sits well with me, and I see it as a good place to start.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #223 on: September 02, 2016, 06:56:42 pm »
The Country has survived far worse than Trump or Hilliary and it will survive regardless of who is elected.

I honestly can't figure where the people who say the country won't survive either candidate, live. How is it possible that any president makes such a daily impact on anyone's life that they think electing the other will make things hunky dory is beyond me.

What is needed is tens of millions of people committed to traditional Conservative values and carrying out that commitment 24/7/365 to those values, to make any change in the direction of the country, electing one individual ain't gonna cut it

I wonder if they're saying that in Argentina?   They were once very similar to us in many ways.

Offline unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,124
Re: So Conservatives, What Have We Learned From This Trump Thing?
« Reply #224 on: September 02, 2016, 06:59:51 pm »
We definitely will not if we don't try.


http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=106938


Listed below in chronological order are (1) numerous records of his attacks on Biblical persons or organizations; (2) examples of the hostility toward Biblical faith that have become evident in the past three years in the Obama-led military; (3) a listing of his open attacks on Biblical values..

1. Acts of hostility toward people of Biblical faith:

•December 2009-Present - The annual White House Christmas cards, rather than focusing on Christmas or faith, instead highlight things such as the family dogs. And the White House Christmas tree ornaments include figures such as Mao Tse-Tung and a drag queen. [1]
• May 2016 - President Obama appoints a transgender to the Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships -- an act of overt disdain and hostility toward traditional faith religions. [2]
• September 2015 – For White House and State Department dinners, the president deliberately invites guests that he knows will be offensive to the Pope and who openly opposed his message, but he and the State Department very carefully avoid inviting guests that oppose or would offended the dictators of countries such as ​Cuba and China. [3]
•June 2013 – The Obama Department of Justice defunds a Young Marines chapter in Louisiana because their oath mentioned God, and another youth program because it permits a voluntary student-led prayer. [4]
•February 2013 – The Obama Administration announces that the rights of religious conscience for individuals will not be protected under the Affordable Care Act. [5]
•January 2013 – Pastor Louie Giglio is pressured to remove himself from praying at the inauguration after it is discovered he once preached a sermon supporting the Biblical definition of marriage.[6]
•February 2012 – The Obama administration forgives student loans in exchange for public service, but announces it will no longer forgive student loans if the public service is related to religion. [7]
•January 2012 – The Obama administration argues that the First Amendment provides no protection for churches and synagogues in hiring their pastors and rabbis. [8]
•December 2011 – The Obama administration denigrates other countries' religious beliefs as an obstacle to radical homosexual rights. [9]
•November 2011 – President Obama opposes inclusion of President Franklin Roosevelt’s famous D-Day Prayer in the WWII Memorial. [10]
•November 2011 – Unlike previous presidents, Obama studiously avoids any religious references in his Thanksgiving speech. [11]
•August 2011 – The Obama administration releases its new health care rules that override religious conscience protections for medical workers in the areas of abortion and contraception. [12]
•April 2011 – For the first time in American history, Obama urges passage of a non-discrimination law that does not contain hiring protections for religious groups, forcing religious organizations to hire according to federal mandates without regard to the dictates of their own faith, thus eliminating conscience protection in hiring. [13]
•February 2011 – Although he filled posts in the State Department, for more than two years Obama did not fill the post of religious freedom ambassador, an official that works against religious persecution across the world; he filled it only after heavy pressure from the public and from Congress. [14]
•January 2011 – After a federal law was passed to transfer a WWI Memorial in the Mojave Desert to private ownership, the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that the cross in the memorial could continue to stand, but the Obama administration refused to allow the land to be transferred as required by law, and refused to allow the cross to be re-erected as ordered by the Court. [15]
•November 2010 – Obama misquotes the National Motto, saying it is “E pluribus unum” rather than “In God We Trust” as established by federal law. [16]
•October 19, 2010 – Obama begins deliberately omitting the phrase about “the Creator” when quoting the Declaration of Independence – an omission he has made on no less than seven occasions. [17]
•May 2009 – Obama declines to host services for the National Prayer Day (a day established by federal law) at the White House. [18]
•April 2009 – When speaking at Georgetown University, Obama orders that a monogram symbolizing Jesus' name be covered when he is making his speech. [19]
•April 2009 – In a deliberate act of disrespect, Obama nominated three pro-abortion ambassadors to the Vatican; of course, the pro-life Vatican rejected all three. [20]
•February 2009 – Obama announces plans to revoke conscience protection for health workers who refuse to participate in medical activities that go against their beliefs, and fully implements the plan in February 2011. [21]
•April 2008 – Obama speaks disrespectfully of Christians, saying they “cling to guns or religion” and have an “antipathy to people who aren't like them.” [22]


2. Acts of hostility from the Obama-led military toward people of Biblical faith:
•June 2016 - A military prayer breakfast whose speaker was highly decorated Delta Force Lt. General Jerry Boykin (ret) was cancelled because Boykin was a traditional value Christian who has voiced his support for natural marriage and his opposition to Islamic extremism. (The atheist critic behind the cancellation had complained that Boykin as a “homophobic, Islamophobic, fundamentalist Christian extremist.”)[23]
•April 2016 - At the orders of a commander, a 33-year Air Force veteran was forcibly and physically removed by four other airmen because he attempted to use the word "God" in a retirement speech.[24]
•February 2016 - After a complaint was received, a Bible was removed from a display inside a Veterans Clinic.[25]
•March 2015 - A decorated Navy chaplain was prohibited from fulfilling his duty of comforting the family (or any member of the unit) after the loss of a sailor because it was feared that he would say something about faith and God. He was even banned from the base on the day of the sailor's memorial service. [26]
•March 2015 - A highly decorated Navy SEAL chaplain was relieved of duty for providing counseling that contained religious views on things such as faith, marriage, and sexuality.​ [27]
•June 2014 - Official U. S. government personnel, both civilian and military, in Bahrain (a small Arabic nation near Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran) must wear clothing that facilitates the religious observance of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.​ [28]
•March 2014 - ​Maxell Air Force Base suddenly bans Gideons from handing out Bibles to willing recruits, a practice that had been occurring for years previously. [29]
•December 2013 - A naval facility required that two nativity scenes -- scenes depicting the event that caused Christmas to be declared a national federal holiday -- be removed from the base dining hall and be confined to the base chapel, thus disallowing the open public acknowledgment of this national federal holiday. [30]
•December 2013 - An Air Force base that allowed various public displays ordered the removal of one simply because it contained religious content. [31]
•October 2013 – A counter-intelligence briefing at Fort Hood tells soldiers that evangelical Christians are a threat to Americans and that for a soldier to donate to such a group “was punishable under military regulations.” [32]
•October 2013 – Catholic priests hired to serve as military chaplains are prohibited from performing Mass services at base chapels during the government financial shutdown. When they offered to freely do Mass for soldiers, without regard to whether or not the chaplains were receiving pay, they are still denied permission to do so. [33]
•October 2013 - The Air Force Academy, in response to a complaint from Mikey Weinstein's Military Religious Freedom Foundation, makes "so help me God" optional in cadets' honor oath. [34]
•August 2013 - A Department of Defense military training manual teaches soldiers that people who talk about "individual liberties, states' rights, and how to make the world a better place" are "extremists." It also lists the Founding Fathers -- those "colonists who sought to free themselves from British rule" -- as examples of those involved in "extremist ideologies and movements." [35]
•August 2013 - A Senior Master Sergeant was removed from his position and reassigned because he told his openly lesbian squadron commander that she should not punish a staff sergeant who expressed his views in favor of traditional marriage. [36]
•August 2013 - The military does not provide heterosexual couples specific paid leave to travel to a state just for the purpose of being married, but it did extend these benefits to homosexual couples who want to marry, thus giving them preferential treatment not available to heterosexuals. [37]
•August 2013 - The Air Force, in the midst of having launched a series of attacks against those expressing traditional religious or moral views, invited a drag queen group to perform at a base. [38]
•July 2013 - When an Air Force sergeant with years of military service questioned a same-sex marriage ceremony performed at the Air Force Academy's chapel, he received a letter of reprimand telling him that if he disagreed, he needed to get out of the military. His current six-year reenlistment was then reduced to only one-year, with the notification that he "be prepared to retire at the end of this year." [39]
•July 2013 - An Air Force chaplain who posted a website article on the importance of faith and the origin of the phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes" was officially ordered to remove his post because some were offended by the use of that famous World War II phrase.[40]
•June 2013 - The U. S. Air Force, in consultation with the Pentagon, removed an inspirational painting that for years has been hanging at Mountain Home Air Force Base because its title was "Blessed Are The Peacemakers" -- a phrase from Matthew 5:9 in the Bible. [41]
•June 2013 – The Obama administration “strongly objects” to a Defense Authorization amendment to protect the constitutionally-guaranteed religious rights of soldiers and chaplains, claiming that it would have an “adverse effect on good order, discipline, morale, and mission accomplishment.” [42]
•June 2013 – At a joint base in New Jersey, a video was made, based on a Super Bowl commercial, to honor First Sergeants. It stated: “On the eighth day, God looked down on His creation and said, ‘I need someone who will take care of the Airmen.’ So God created a First Sergeant.” Because the video mentioned the word “God,” the Air Force required that it be taken down. [43]
•June 2013 – An Army Master Sergeant is reprimanded, threatened with judicial action, and given a bad efficiency report, being told he was “no longer a team player,” because he voiced his support of traditional marriage at his own promotion party. [44]
•May 2013 - The Pentagon announces that "Air Force members are free to express their personal religious beliefs as long as it does not make others uncomfortable. "Proselytizing (inducing someone to convert to one's faith) goes over that line," [45] affirming if a sharing of faith makes someone feel uncomfortable that it could be a court-marital offense [46] -- the military equivalent of a civil felony.
•May 2013 - An Air Force officer was actually made to remove a personal Bible from his own desk because it "might" appear that he was condoning the particular religion to which he belonged. [47]
•April 2013 – Officials briefing U.S. Army soldiers placed "Evangelical Christianity" and "Catholicism" in a list that also included Al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas as examples of "religious extremism." [48]
•April 2013 – The U.S. Army directs troops to scratch off and paint over tiny Scripture verse references that for decades had been forged into weapon scopes. [49]
•April 2013 - The Air Force creates a "religious tolerance" policy but consults only a militant atheist group to do so -- a group whose leader has described military personnel who are religious as 'spiritual rapists' and 'human monsters' [50] and who also says that soldiers who proselytize are guilty of treason and sedition and should be punished to hold back a "tidal wave of fundamentalists." [51]
•January 2013 – President Obama announced his opposition to a provision in the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act protecting the rights of conscience for military chaplains. [52]
•June 2012 – Bibles for the American military have been printed in every conflict since the American Revolution, but the Obama Administration revokes the long-standing U. S. policy of allowing military service emblems to be placed on those military Bibles. [53]
•May 2012 – The Obama administration opposed legislation to protect the rights of conscience for military chaplains who do not wish to perform same-sex marriages in violation of their strongly-held religious beliefs. [54]
•April 2012 – A checklist for Air Force Inns will no longer include ensuring that a Bible is available in rooms for those who want to use them. [55]
•February 2012 – The U. S. Military Academy at West Point disinvites three star Army general and decorated war hero Lieutenant General William G. (“Jerry”) Boykin (retired) from speaking at an event because he is an outspoken Christian. [56]
•February 2012 – The Air Force removes “God” from the patch of Rapid Capabilities Office (the word on the patch was in Latin: Dei). [57]
•February 2012 – The Army ordered Catholic chaplains not to read a letter to parishioners that their archbishop asked them to read. [58]
•November 2011 – The Air Force Academy rescinds support for Operation Christmas Child, a program to send holiday gifts to impoverished children across the world, because the program is run by a Christian charity. [59]
•November 2011 – President Obama opposes inclusion of President Franklin Roosevelt’s famous D-Day Prayer in the WWII Memorial. [60]
•November 2011 – Even while restricting and disapprobating Christian religious expressions, the Air Force Academy pays $80,000 to add a Stonehenge-like worship center for pagans, druids, witches and Wiccans at the Air Force Academy. [61]
•September 2011 – Air Force Chief of Staff prohibits commanders from notifying airmen of programs and services available to them from chaplains. [62]
•September 2011 – The Army issues guidelines for Walter Reed Medical Center stipulating that “No religious items (i.e. Bibles, reading materials and/or facts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visit.” [63]
•August 2011 – The Air Force stops teaching the Just War theory to officers in California because the course is taught by chaplains and is based on a philosophy introduced by St. Augustine in the third century AD – a theory long taught by civilized nations across the world (except now, America). [64]
•June 2011 – The Department of Veterans Affairs forbids references to God and Jesus during burial ceremonies at Houston National Cemetery. [65]
•January 2010 – Because of "concerns" raised by the Department of Defense, tiny Bible verse references that had appeared for decades on scopes and gunsights were removed. [66]


3. Acts of hostility toward Biblical values:
•October 2015 - The administration attempts to pick opponents for court cases dealing with Obamacare contraception mandate. [67]
•March 2014 - The Obama administration seeks funding for every type of sex-education -- except that which reflects traditional moral values. [68]
•August 2013 - Non-profit charitable hospitals, especially faith-based ones, will face large fines or lose their tax-exempt status if they don't comply with new strangling paperwork requirements related to giving free treatment to poor clients who do not have Obamacare insurance coverage. [69] Ironically, the first hospital in America was founded as a charitable institution in 1751 by Benjamin Franklin, and its logo was the Good Samaritan, with Luke 10:35 inscribed below him: "Take care of him, and I will repay thee," being designed specifically to offer free medical care to the poor. [70] Benjamin Franklin's hospital would likely be fined unless he placed more resources and funds into paperwork rather than helping the poor under the new faith-hostile policy of the Obama administration.
•August 2013 - USAID, a federal government agency, shut down a conference in South Korea the night before it was scheduled to take place because some of the presentations were not pro-abortion but instead presented information on abortion complications, including the problems of "preterm births, mental health issues, and maternal mortality" among women giving birth who had previous abortions. [71]
•June 2013 – The Obama Administration finalizes requirements that under the Obamacare insurance program, employers must make available abortion-causing drugs, regardless of the religious conscience objections of many employers and even despite the directive of several federal courts to protect the religious conscience of employers. [72]
•April 2013 – The United States Agency for Internal Development (USAID), an official foreign policy agency of the U.S. government, begins a program to train homosexual activists in various countries around the world to overturn traditional marriage and anti-sodomy laws, targeting first those countries with strong Catholic influences, including Ecuador, Honduras, and Guatemala. [73]
•December 2012 – Despite having campaigned to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, President Obama once again suspends the provisions of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 which requires the United States to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and to move the American Embassy there. [74]
•July 2012 - The Pentagon, for the first time, allows service members to wear their uniforms while marching in a parade - specifically, a gay pride parade in San Diego. [75]
•October 2011 – The Obama administration eliminates federal grants to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for their extensive programs that aid victims of human trafficking because the Catholic Church is anti-abortion. [76]
•September 2011 – The Pentagon directs that military chaplains may perform same-sex marriages at military facilities in violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [77]
•July 2011 – Obama allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military, reversing a policy originally instituted by George Washington in March 1778. [78]
•March 2011 – The Obama administration refuses to investigate videos showing Planned Parenthood helping alleged sex traffickers get abortions for victimized underage girls. [79]
•February 2011 – Obama directs the Justice Department to stop defending the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [80]
•September 2010 – The Obama administration tells researchers to ignore a judge’s decision striking down federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. [81]
•August 2010 – The Obama administration Cuts funding for 176 abstinence education programs. [82]
•July 2010 – The Obama administration uses federal funds in violation of federal law to get Kenya to change its constitution to include abortion. [83]
•September 16, 2009 – The Obama administration appoints as EEOC Commissioner Chai Feldblum, who asserts that society should “not tolerate” any “private beliefs,” including religious beliefs, if they may negatively affect homosexual “equality.” [84]
•July 2009 – The Obama administration illegally extends federal benefits to same-sex partners of Foreign Service and Executive Branch employees, in direction violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [85]
•May 2009 – The White House budget eliminates all funding for abstinence-only education and replaces it with “comprehensive” sexual education, repeatedly proven to increase teen pregnancies and abortions. [86] He continues the deletion in subsequent budgets. [87]
•May 2009 – Obama officials assemble a terrorism dictionary calling pro-life advocates violent and charging that they use racism in their “criminal” activities. [88]
•March 2009 – The Obama administration shut out pro-life groups from attending a White House-sponsored health care summit. [89]
•March 2009 – Obama orders taxpayer funding of embryonic stem cell research. [90]
•March 2009 – Obama gave $50 million for the UNFPA, the UN population agency that promotes abortion and works closely with Chinese population control officials who use forced abortions and involuntary sterilizations. [91]
•January 2009 – Obama lifts restrictions on U.S. government funding for groups that provide abortion services or counseling abroad, forcing taxpayers to fund pro-abortion groups that either promote or perform abortions in other nations. [92]
•January 2009 – President Obama’s nominee for deputy secretary of state asserts that American taxpayers are required to pay for abortions and that limits on abortion funding are unconstitutional. [93]



I won't be here after the election and vote.

If Hillary wins - I will be busy, BLOAT! (It won't be long before she won't let you buy.)

If Trump wins, I won't be here to GLOAT. (I don't want to hang around while everyone looks at every speck in his eye.)