Why people like Donald.

[Silver Pines]

It has everything to do with PC. You just made the argument of a "safe space" liberal. Most of middle america still believes in traditional gender roles and don't like all this women's empowerment stuff. Conservatism has nothing to do with feminism, which is the case you tried to make from the right which is ridiculous.  Ask evangelicals. Do you believe this? If not, you're center right and not conservative. You can't be a Lena Dunham and be a conservative. You have to choose one. Donald is running for president, not to create a "safe space" for pro PC "conservatives."

@musiclady @runnerrunner

Yeah, I don't believe in "empowerment" either; if you can't find your own strength and need someone to give it to you, you have nothing.  I've encountered sexual harassment in the workplace: I never felt the need to run to human resources or to cry to a feminist organization to rescue me.  I dealt with it, face to face, and told the man exactly where his...something...would end up if he persisted in following me into empty rooms and backing me into corners.  I would have made good on it. He got the message, and we were able to get alone fine after that.

I've always understood that I'm equal to any man, and by equal, I mean in the eyes of God.  No man is better than me; I'm not better than any man.  I AM, however, very different.  My natural role in the world is not the same as a man's, I'm smaller and much weaker physically,  I'm more emotional, etc.  But none of these things make me "lesser than."

Where you seem to be confused is in believing that conservative/traditional women welcome insults, that refusing to take nasty remarks from a sleaze like Trump makes one a feminist or a liberal whining for a safe space.  You're very much mistaken, and I don't understand why you think women should accept such treatment.

[Silver Pines]

There is some truth in that - I was raised redneck, with country mores... Men are supposed to defer to women - Lift for them,  protect them, open doors, help them get along, any way you can, especially when she's got a passel of kids to mind. Not just your own kin, but any woman - Not only because it's the right thing to do, but also because you would expect it of other men, to help your wife or mother or daughter get along - and that's really the backbone of polite society - It is and has always been centered on that.

I'll always stop for a woman in distress. I am never bothered by a woman stopping me to render assistance in any case. And it happens a whole lot - I think that women see the hallmarks of Country life on me (read Wranglers, Bailey hat and sh*tkickers), and know they have a good chance of a favorable response.

But every time I volunteer - If I open a door for a lady, or take off my hat in her presence, or knock a dude down for her for copping a feel or being overly vulgar - I almost cringe at it anymore, not knowing if she will appreciate it, or if I will then get a 1/2 hour b*tch session on what a misogynist troglodyte I am... It can be a caution, and it is very confusing.

@roamer_1

A man held the door for me today, and the poor guy actually looked surprised when I thanked him.  I guess he was half expecting to be cussed out.

[Silver Pines]

Tough call here. I could say respect is earned but you would say all people deserve respect, and I don't disagree with that. But still Men like trump for a reason.This.

Actually, someone recently offered a different reason, and I think the person nailed it.

First, understand that I'm not speaking of you or of the men on this board, but I read a theory that some weak men see Trump's arrogance and bluster, and mistake it for the strength they never had & wish they could obtain.

It rings very true to me.

[DCPatriot]

snip....

  I dealt with it, face to face, and told the man exactly where his...something...would end up if he persisted in following me into empty rooms and backing me into corners. I would have made good on it. He got the message, and we were able to get alone fine after that.

Hmmmmmmm......thanks for sharing.       

[jmyrlefuller]

I don't like Donald Trump. That much is obvious. I think his temperament is that of an easily offended tyrant, his approach to government is not what we need right now and his supporters have been even more rude than he is.

I've come up with five reasons I could think of that people like Trump.

1. The true believers: the ones that really think Donald Trump's nationalist vision is what the country needs. They're not particularly conservative but very strong on national defense—neocons, really. They're the most admirable of the five, as much as I may disagree with them, as their support is at least for a logical reason.

2. The nihilists: to this caucus, the fact that everyone knows he is a horrible candidate is reason to vote for him, because for some odd reason, everyone else (especially those who speak ill of Trump) is part of some establishment conspiracy that is the real reason for the GOP's decline in the past decade. There's a major "tear it down" element to this group. What makes them dangerous is that they don't care what happens AFTER the lone viable opposition to the Democratic machine gets torn down.

3. The professional trolls: mostly in the media, they say outrageous things about Trump and his opponents. It's hard to say whether or not they genuinely like Trump or if the whole thing is an act, as often their past record about Trump's positions runs totally counter to what they're saying in the campaign. What makes them dangerous is that they have the largest influence and that people actually believe what they say, even though there's a good chance that there's absolutely nothing genuine about it.

4. The low-information voters: The LIVs support Trump on name recognition alone, caring nothing about policy and supporting him because he's famous and really, really rich. You see a lot of these at the Trump rallies.

5. The bandwagoners: the ones that support him because of the R next to his name (in the primaries it was because he was leading the polls). Closely related in this category is the "Not Hillary Clinton" vote. Both the bandwagoners and the LIVs are among the most troublesome, because they don't care what Trump is or does.

[roamer_1]

You seem to think "conservative woman" is another term for "doormat."

It isn't.

Some of us know better...

[Silver Pines]

Hmmmmmmm......thanks for sharing.     

Sorry...I know it wasn't quite delicate.  But if you're female and a guy is backing you into a corner and blocking you from getting out with his body, you want to disable his weapon of choice.   :green teeth:

[Silver Pines]

Some of us know better...

LOL, I'm dying...that's great.  And very true!

[mirraflake]

My wife is a horse gal.  Recently there was about 25 women at our riding arena/stable for lessons and just getting together as they do every so often.

My wife said not a single women was for Trump when the topic came up. Not one (Though she did concede a few may have just kept their mouth shut to get along-though the tone was their.most were very vocal and called him various names dealing with male appendage) .   Please note: these are pickup driving, clod hopper wearing, gun owning conservative country gals, not city liberal feminist women.

Women have memories like an elephant..and tend to get pissed off when you make remarks about their appearance, lack of abilities and general mysogny jokes.

[LMAO]

Someday we will find out what he and Bill Clinton discussed before he decided to run

[mirraflake]

@roamer_1

A man held the door for me today, and the poor guy actually looked surprised when I thanked him.  I guess he was half expecting to be cussed out.

I hear about this but I tack it up to urban legend. Never in my 54 years have I ever been cussed out or yelled out for holding a door open for a woman.

@CatherineofAragon

[roamer_1]

A man held the door for me today, and the poor guy actually looked surprised when I thanked him.  I guess he was half expecting to be cussed out.

I'm telling ya, even out here, where the cowboy way is still mighty strong, you get cussed out more often than you'd think.

But (and here's the solution you were looking for @runnerrunner ),

I have become determined to treat women as I have always been taught to treat them, giving them the respect that they have historically been given. Not because the harridans of feminism, who choose to reject that respect deserve any of it... Rather, because the women that I love have demonstrated women to be more than worthy of every bit of it.

And it is, as I stated upthread, the very basis of polite society. Demonstrating that tenet freely in public serves as an example that is the very balm that heals what feminism has wrought.

@CatherineofAragon

*edit:sp

[uglybiker]

Just because she ain't no lady doesn't mean you can't be a gentleman.

[roamer_1]

Just because she ain't no lady doesn't mean you can't be a gentleman.

That statement runs much deeper than it seems.

[Wingnut]

Just because she ain't no lady doesn't mean you can't be a gentleman.

You can't teach a Troglodyte to be a gentleman.  Otherwise it would be so easy.... a caveman could do it.

[Sanguine]

That statement runs much deeper than it seems.

That's frequently true of @uglybiker 's statements.

[musiclady]

Since this conversation has concentrated quite a bit on 'feminism' and how women and men behave, I'm going to add a few thoughts that might get some negative response, but here goes.....

Feminism has a very bad name, and deservedly so because the left has controlled it and perverted it, and what they have made it is ugly, but at the same time there has been a women's movement for centuries (in the early days conjoined with the abolition movement and led by Christians) quite apart from the leftist distortion of it, and I'd like to mention a few things about it.

I presume most men and women here don't still believe that a man's wife is his property.  If it weren't for the women's movement, we would be.

I presume that most people here don't agree with Martin Luther that women weren't intelligent enough to read or understand Scripture.

I presume that most of us believe a woman should have (at least) equal say in how her children are raised.  It didn't used to be so.

Other than a few troglodytes on TOS, I think we all agree women should have the right to vote (well maybe the boy who started this thread doesn't.  who knows?)  After all, it was the wild and wooly state of Wyoming that led that fight back in 1869.

I believe that most of us don't find women being allowed to go to med school, dental school, law school, or to become engineers "sinful" (as our young  -teenage? - boy suggested upthread when he made the statement that "feminism is sinful.")

I think most of us believe that women who are athletic should have opportunities to develop their athletic skills on sports teams.

I think most of us agree that college campuses should not have curfews for women and let the men run free.

I even think that most of us believe that in a Christian school a single male teacher should not earn more than a single female teacher because he is "the family breadwinner."  Or agree that it was right that nurses and teachers were historically underpaid because they were 'only women.'

In the world of music, I don't believe that most men think that women shouldn't be allowed to play violin in a symphony orchestra, should not be permitted to be a conductor, should not be allowed to get music published regardless of its quality, simply because they are female.  Fanny Mendelssohn had to get her marvelous works published under her brother, Felix's name because women's works were not permitted to be published.

And more currently, I don't believe that most decent people think the victim of a rape should be blamed for it, or that a 12 year old prostitute who was kidnapped and became a sex slave of a pimp should be jailed for her crime while the john and the pimp go free.  Many states are working on legislation to correct that horrible wrong.


There are a lot of things that we all accept as right that have been quietly, or sometimes not so quietly fought for by men and women who didn't like the situation women were in.  Historically, the women's movement had nothing to do with being a lesbian (sinful) or having an abortion (sinful..... and violently anti-woman).   It was about raising women from  being property to being treated as fully human beings as God intended us to be.

Let the attacks begin!  I have said my piece.   

[geronl]

Since this conversation has concentrated quite a bit on 'feminism' and how women and men behave, I'm going to add a few thoughts that might get some negative response, but here goes.....

Feminism has a very bad name, and deservedly so because the left has controlled it and perverted it, and what they have made it is ugly, but at the same time there has been a women's movement for centuries (in the early days conjoined with the abolition movement and led by Christians) quite apart from the leftist distortion of it, and I'd like to mention a few things about it.

I presume most men and women here don't still believe that a man's wife is his property.  If it weren't for the women's movement, we would be.
I doubt that was ever really true in this country.



I presume that most of us believe a woman should have (at least) equal say in how her children are raised.  It didn't used to be so.

I think most of us believe that women who are athletic should have opportunities to develop their athletic skills on sports teams.
As long as government isn't involved.



I even think that most of us believe that in a Christian school a single male teacher should not earn more than a single female teacher because he is "the family breadwinner."  Or agree that it was right that nurses and teachers were historically underpaid because they were 'only women.'

In the world of music, I don't believe that most men think that women shouldn't be allowed to play violin in a symphony orchestra, should not be permitted to be a conductor, should not be allowed to get music published regardless of its quality, simply because they are female.  Fanny Mendelssohn had to get her marvelous works published under her brother, Felix's name because women's works were not permitted to be published.
If it is a private institution, it should make its own rules

Half the stuff we hear about women "being property" was never actually true.

[musiclady]

Half the stuff we hear about women "being property" was never actually true.

I have no problem with your comments in red.  None at all.  I don't believe the government should be involved in these decisions.  Only people of conscience.

Also  -I'm clearly speaking of the worldwide situation women have been in (note - Martin Luther), and making the point that while "feminism" is almost universally derided, the effects of the women's movements are generally agreed upon as good things.

The vast majority of conservatives really don't want things to be 'the way they used to be.'  I have found conservatives to be the most effective purveyors of improvements in the condition of women because they do so within the framework of morality and a moral culture.

[mirraflake]

Since this conversation has concentrated quite a bit on 'feminism' and how women and men behave, I'm going to add a few thoughts that might get some negative response, but here goes.....

Feminism has a very bad name, and deservedly so because the left has controlled it and perverted it, and what they have made it is ugly, but at the same time there has been a women's movement for centuries (in the early days conjoined with the abolition movement and led by Christians) quite apart from the leftist distortion of it, and I'd like to mention a few things about it.

I presume most men and women here don't still believe that a man's wife is his property.  If it weren't for the women's movement, we would be.

I presume that most people here don't agree with Martin Luther that women weren't intelligent enough to read or understand Scripture.

I presume that most of us believe a woman should have (at least) equal say in how her children are raised.  It didn't used to be so.

Other than a few troglodytes on TOS, I think we all agree women should have the right to vote (well maybe the boy who started this thread doesn't.  who knows?)  After all, it was the wild and wooly state of Wyoming that led that fight back in 1869.

I believe that most of us don't find women being allowed to go to med school, dental school, law school, or to become engineers "sinful" (as our young  -teenage? - boy suggested upthread when he made the statement that "feminism is sinful.")

I think most of us believe that women who are athletic should have opportunities to develop their athletic skills on sports teams.

I think most of us agree that college campuses should not have curfews for women and let the men run free.

I even think that most of us believe that in a Christian school a single male teacher should not earn more than a single female teacher because he is "the family breadwinner."  Or agree that it was right that nurses and teachers were historically underpaid because they were 'only women.'

In the world of music, I don't believe that most men think that women shouldn't be allowed to play violin in a symphony orchestra, should not be permitted to be a conductor, should not be allowed to get music published regardless of its quality, simply because they are female.  Fanny Mendelssohn had to get her marvelous works published under her brother, Felix's name because women's works were not permitted to be published.

And more currently, I don't believe that most decent people think the victim of a rape should be blamed for it, or that a 12 year old prostitute who was kidnapped and became a sex slave of a pimp should be jailed for her crime while the john and the pimp go free.  Many states are working on legislation to correct that horrible wrong.


There are a lot of things that we all accept as right that have been quietly, or sometimes not so quietly fought for by men and women who didn't like the situation women were in.  Historically, the women's movement had nothing to do with being a lesbian (sinful) or having an abortion (sinful..... and violently anti-woman).   It was about raising women from  being property to being treated as fully human beings as God intended us to be.

Let the attacks begin!  I have said my piece.   

1st and 2nd wave feminism was 100% ok.  My mom was a typical 2nd wave feminist.  Now, the 3rd wave man hating types are entirely different story.

My mom told me she remember back in the 50's a woman could not start their own bank account unless their husband approved and signed off.

@musiclady

[musiclady]

1st and 2nd wave feminism was 100% ok.  My mom was a typical 2nd wave feminist.  Now, the 3rd wave man hating types are entirely different story.

My mom told me she remember back in the 50's a woman could not start their own bank account unless their husband approved and signed off.

@musiclady

Totally agree.  Things needed to be done, and my point is that we need to remember that, rather than stating across the board that "feminism is sin."

The man-hating, pro-lesbian, pro-abortion movement is vile, and needs to be addressed as such, but the need for freedom and equality (note: equality does not mean sameness)  for women  was real, and not related to the filth that the left has saddled it with.

Maybe some women forget about the restrictions that were placed on us that had nothing to do with morality or Biblical commands (Read Proverbs 31), but that were societal only........ like your Mom's needing her husband's signature to get a checking account.  I think......... or at least hope......... that we all are glad those days are over.

@mirraflake

[runnerrunner]

First, let me say that I've never liked Donald Trump.  He's always been a gasbag braggart, and most people don't find those qualities very likeable.  As I've watched him in action this past year, I've come to detest him.  Ben Shapiro nailed it when he called Trump a "garbage human being."

Have you seen the video of Trump openly mocking the disabled journalist?  It's disgraceful...what kind of person does that?

Trump has proven himself to be a habitual liar.  I don't believe a thing he says.  Almost everything that comes out of his mouth has an expiration date; it's true until he walks it back or until someone in his campaign says it wasn't meant to be taken literally.  I honestly don't understand why anyone takes the man seriously.  Well, yes, I do....anger and desperation.  Still no excuse.

As for female conservatives taking issue with Trump's remarks, let me clue you in on something.  I'm not a feminist.  I'm a pretty traditional woman.  But Donald Trump is on record as having said, "You have to treat women like s--t."  If you think I'm fool enough to vote for a person who holds me in such utter contempt, well...you're mistaken. 

Trump isn't a strong man.  He's just arrogant and not that smart. 

@runnerrunner

You seem to think "conservative woman" is another term for "doormat."

It isn't.

@runnerrunner

First, let me say that I've never liked Donald Trump.  He's always been a gasbag braggart, and most people don't find those qualities very likeable.  As I've watched him in action this past year, I've come to detest him.  Ben Shapiro nailed it when he called Trump a "garbage human being."

Have you seen the video of Trump openly mocking the disabled journalist?  It's disgraceful...what kind of person does that?

Trump has proven himself to be a habitual liar.  I don't believe a thing he says.  Almost everything that comes out of his mouth has an expiration date; it's true until he walks it back or until someone in his campaign says it wasn't meant to be taken literally.  I honestly don't understand why anyone takes the man seriously.  Well, yes, I do....anger and desperation.  Still no excuse.

As for female conservatives taking issue with Trump's remarks, let me clue you in on something.  I'm not a feminist.  I'm a pretty traditional woman.  But Donald Trump is on record as having said, "You have to treat women like s--t."  If you think I'm fool enough to vote for a person who holds me in such utter contempt, well...you're mistaken. 

Trump isn't a strong man.  He's just arrogant and not that smart. 

@runnerrunner

Actually, someone recently offered a different reason, and I think the person nailed it.

First, understand that I'm not speaking of you or of the men on this board, but I read a theory that some weak men see Trump's arrogance and bluster, and mistake it for the strength they never had & wish they could obtain.

It rings very true to me.

@CatherineofAragon  Hi!


Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I don't believe in domestic abuse at all, I just want to make that clear. But I think some men, like you say, just love the fact Trump can do what ever he wants. That's really all I am saying here.

[runnerrunner]

Someday we will find out what he and Bill Clinton discussed before he decided to run

Of course he told Donald to run. The dots connect too much. She would be losing against Rubio or Kasich right now.

I don't like Donald Trump. That much is obvious. I think his temperament is that of an easily offended tyrant, his approach to government is not what we need right now and his supporters have been even more rude than he is.

I've come up with five reasons I could think of that people like Trump.

1. The true believers: the ones that really think Donald Trump's nationalist vision is what the country needs. They're not particularly conservative but very strong on national defense—neocons, really. They're the most admirable of the five, as much as I may disagree with them, as their support is at least for a logical reason.

2. The nihilists: to this caucus, the fact that everyone knows he is a horrible candidate is reason to vote for him, because for some odd reason, everyone else (especially those who speak ill of Trump) is part of some establishment conspiracy that is the real reason for the GOP's decline in the past decade. There's a major "tear it down" element to this group. What makes them dangerous is that they don't care what happens AFTER the lone viable opposition to the Democratic machine gets torn down.

3. The professional trolls: mostly in the media, they say outrageous things about Trump and his opponents. It's hard to say whether or not they genuinely like Trump or if the whole thing is an act, as often their past record about Trump's positions runs totally counter to what they're saying in the campaign. What makes them dangerous is that they have the largest influence and that people actually believe what they say, even though there's a good chance that there's absolutely nothing genuine about it.

4. The low-information voters: The LIVs support Trump on name recognition alone, caring nothing about policy and supporting him because he's famous and really, really rich. You see a lot of these at the Trump rallies.

5. The bandwagoners: the ones that support him because of the R next to his name (in the primaries it was because he was leading the polls). Closely related in this category is the "Not Hillary Clinton" vote. Both the bandwagoners and the LIVs are among the most troublesome, because they don't care what Trump is or does.

I am number 5. I think the number 1's felt or feel the Tea Party failed in its objectives, and now it's time to take the gloves off with the Alt Right.

[runnerrunner]

I'm telling ya, even out here, where the cowboy way is still mighty strong, you get cussed out more often than you'd think.

But (and here's the solution you were looking for @runnerrunner ),

I have become determined to treat women as I have always been taught to treat them, giving them the respect that they have historically been given. Not because the harridans of feminism, who choose to reject that respect deserve any of it... Rather, because the women that I love have demonstrated women to be more than worthy of every bit of it.

And it is, as I stated upthread, the very basis of polite society. Demonstrating that tenet freely in public serves as an example that is the very balm that heals what feminism has wrought.

@CatherineofAragon

*edit:sp

I can agree with this. I guess we can all do better.

Since this conversation has concentrated quite a bit on 'feminism' and how women and men behave, I'm going to add a few thoughts that might get some negative response, but here goes.....

Feminism has a very bad name, and deservedly so because the left has controlled it and perverted it, and what they have made it is ugly, but at the same time there has been a women's movement for centuries (in the early days conjoined with the abolition movement and led by Christians) quite apart from the leftist distortion of it, and I'd like to mention a few things about it.

I presume most men and women here don't still believe that a man's wife is his property.  If it weren't for the women's movement, we would be.

I presume that most people here don't agree with Martin Luther that women weren't intelligent enough to read or understand Scripture.

I presume that most of us believe a woman should have (at least) equal say in how her children are raised.  It didn't used to be so.

Other than a few troglodytes on TOS, I think we all agree women should have the right to vote (well maybe the boy who started this thread doesn't.  who knows?)  After all, it was the wild and wooly state of Wyoming that led that fight back in 1869.

I believe that most of us don't find women being allowed to go to med school, dental school, law school, or to become engineers "sinful" (as our young  -teenage? - boy suggested upthread when he made the statement that "feminism is sinful.")

I think most of us believe that women who are athletic should have opportunities to develop their athletic skills on sports teams.

I think most of us agree that college campuses should not have curfews for women and let the men run free.

I even think that most of us believe that in a Christian school a single male teacher should not earn more than a single female teacher because he is "the family breadwinner."  Or agree that it was right that nurses and teachers were historically underpaid because they were 'only women.'

In the world of music, I don't believe that most men think that women shouldn't be allowed to play violin in a symphony orchestra, should not be permitted to be a conductor, should not be allowed to get music published regardless of its quality, simply because they are female.  Fanny Mendelssohn had to get her marvelous works published under her brother, Felix's name because women's works were not permitted to be published.

And more currently, I don't believe that most decent people think the victim of a rape should be blamed for it, or that a 12 year old prostitute who was kidnapped and became a sex slave of a pimp should be jailed for her crime while the john and the pimp go free.  Many states are working on legislation to correct that horrible wrong.


There are a lot of things that we all accept as right that have been quietly, or sometimes not so quietly fought for by men and women who didn't like the situation women were in.  Historically, the women's movement had nothing to do with being a lesbian (sinful) or having an abortion (sinful..... and violently anti-woman).   It was about raising women from  being property to being treated as fully human beings as God intended us to be.

Let the attacks begin!  I have said my piece.   

Ouch... I never said women should not have the vote, but otherwise I agree with this post.

[musiclady]

Ouch... I never said women should not have the vote, but otherwise I agree with this post.

Then you should agree that Donald Trump's attitudes about women are inappropriate even for a decent man, let alone the President.

The women of the United States (AND the men) deserve better than to have a degenerate in the WH.