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http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/204291-bundy-stands-by-his-comments (http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/204291-bundy-stands-by-his-comments)
April 24, 2014, 01:50 pm
Bundy stands by his 'better off' as slaves comments
By Laura Barron-Lopez
Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy on Thursday stood by the controversial comments he made about African-Americans that drew harsh criticism from Republicans who had previously backed his fight with the government over grazing fees.
Bundy's comments about slavery came under fire after The New York Times published a story on Thursday that quoted Bundy as referring to black people as "the Negro" and wondering if they were better off as slaves.
"The statement was right," Bundy said Thursday in an interview on "The Peter Schiff Show."
"I'm wondering if they are better off under the government subsidy when their young women are having abortions and their young men are in jail. I'm wondering are they happier now under this government subsidy system then they were when they were slaves and able to have their family structure together and chickens and a garden," Bundy said Thursday.
The comments have unleashed a flurry of comments from lawmakers on Capitol Hill. Republican Sens. Rand Paul (Ky.) and Dean Heller (Nev.) called Bundy's statements racist and offensive.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) called Bundy a "hateful racist."
Bundy first received national attention earlier this month after the Bureau of Land Management sent armed officers and contractors to his ranch to confiscate his cattle.
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Slaves had their children sold off. Slave women were raped by their masters and had their children.
One can argue about the clear evil and destruction of the welfare state, but worse than slavery??
Shut up, Cliven.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI)
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Slaves had their children sold off. Slave women were raped by their masters and had their children.
One can argue about the clear evil and destruction of the welfare state, but worse than slavery??
Shut up, Cliven.
I agree......shut up!!!!
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This is called DISTRACTION. It's what the media does to get people's attention off of sticky topics that hurt progressives. The issue of an over-reacting sniper-armed BLM and the attention it brought to the land-grabbing out west got a little too hot for them. So let's "expose" these "domestic terrorists" for the hate-filled bigots they really are... and look over there! It's a squirrel! We fall for it everytime. Just when they're starting to squirm a bit - they pull the old re-direct trick and poof! Suddenly we forgot the real issue. They are trying to make Bundy into the conservative spokesman and he is not. But watch us all run away from the original REAL issue.
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This is called DISTRACTION. It's what the media does to get people's attention off of sticky topics that hurt progressives. The issue of an over-reacting sniper-armed BLM and the attention it brought to the land-grabbing out west got a little too hot for them. So let's "expose" these "domestic terrorists" for the hate-filled bigots they really are... and look over there! It's a squirrel! We fall for it everytime. Just when they're starting to squirm a bit - they pull the old re-direct trick and poof! Suddenly we forgot the real issue. They are trying to make Bundy into the conservative spokesman and he is not. But watch us all run away from the original REAL issue.
OF COURSE it's a distraction. It's what the left does.
But some distractions are destructive, and defending an indefensible position (Bundy's) is what is playing into the hands of the left.
We all need to condemn, in powerful unison, what Bundy said.
(There are actually quite a few conservatives who accepted Bundy as their 'spokesman.' That was a very bad idea).
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This is called DISTRACTION. It's what the media does to get people's attention off of sticky topics that hurt progressives. The issue of an over-reacting sniper-armed BLM and the attention it brought to the land-grabbing out west got a little too hot for them. So let's "expose" these "domestic terrorists" for the hate-filled bigots they really are... and look over there! It's a squirrel! We fall for it everytime. Just when they're starting to squirm a bit - they pull the old re-direct trick and poof! Suddenly we forgot the real issue. They are trying to make Bundy into the conservative spokesman and he is not. But watch us all run away from the original REAL issue.
Here's the thing. I've been trying to find the info or pictures of those "sniper armed BLM" and can't find anything. I have however found that information for the people who showed up in defense of Bundy.
I feel those who are supporting him and his antics are wrong. Over a few threads here Luis G and a couple others have laid out very supportive information against Bundy. This man is a free loader, a cheat and swindler. And he's going to get someone killed.
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This is called DISTRACTION. It's what the media does to get people's attention off of sticky topics that hurt progressives. The issue of an over-reacting sniper-armed BLM and the attention it brought to the land-grabbing out west got a little too hot for them. So let's "expose" these "domestic terrorists" for the hate-filled bigots they really are... and look over there! It's a squirrel! We fall for it everytime. Just when they're starting to squirm a bit - they pull the old re-direct trick and poof! Suddenly we forgot the real issue. They are trying to make Bundy into the conservative spokesman and he is not. But watch us all run away from the original REAL issue.
So what you're saying is that Cliven Bundy made these statements in order to provide leftist and the media (that's somewhat redundant, isn't it?) with a distraction to take attention away from the government abuses that he's protesting against?
Do I have that right?
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Here's the thing. I've been trying to find the info or pictures of those "sniper armed BLM" and can't find anything. I have however found that information for the people who showed up in defense of Bundy.
I feel those who are supporting him and his antics are wrong. Over a few threads here Luis G and a couple others have laid out very supportive information against Bundy. This man is a free loader, a cheat and swindler. And he's going to get someone killed.
(http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/528x480xBLM-snipers-outside-of-Bundy-Ranch.jpg.pagespeed.ic.XLsmgH6J0G.jpg)
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/)
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Just as this man continues to define himself by his actions and his words, those who continue to support him will be defined by Bundy's words and actions. In the end, whatever broad brush it is that will used to paint Bundy will likewise paint his followers with every color and hue assigned to the man.
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(http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/528x480xBLM-snipers-outside-of-Bundy-Ranch.jpg.pagespeed.ic.XLsmgH6J0G.jpg)
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/)
I thought I saw a photo of men with riffles on a overpass????
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This is called DISTRACTION. It's what the media does to get people's attention off of sticky topics that hurt progressives. The issue of an over-reacting sniper-armed BLM and the attention it brought to the land-grabbing out west got a little too hot for them. So let's "expose" these "domestic terrorists" for the hate-filled bigots they really are... and look over there! It's a squirrel! We fall for it everytime. Just when they're starting to squirm a bit - they pull the old re-direct trick and poof! Suddenly we forgot the real issue. They are trying to make Bundy into the conservative spokesman and he is not. But watch us all run away from the original REAL issue.
Ditto Stop playing the liberal game ,because some jackass reporter got some old gentleman to put in his mouth does not mean we should stop supporting him ..and again he was right blacks are no better on massa liberals plantation then they were in slavery ..Its way past time for Conservatives to tell the liberals to take their racism charges and shove them up their you know where
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Ditto Stop playing the liberal game ,because some jackass reporter got some old gentleman to put in his mouth does not mean we should stop supporting him ..and again he was right blacks are no better on massa liberals plantation then they were in slavery ..Its way past time for Conservatives to tell the liberals to take their racism charges and shove them up their you know where
I could not disagree with you more, Charles.
Yes, the Democrat plantation is a horrible, disabling place to be, but slaves were owned, beaten, sold (children away from their mothers), raped and abused. There is NO comparison, no matter how bad the current conditions are (and I am the first to shout out about the grave condition the left has placed blacks in, with support from blacks, themselves).
However, even saying that they are now worse off is, IMO, a dangerous (and ignorant) position to put conservatives in.
The problem here is that conservatives did NOT center on the issue, and (many) DID hold up Bundy as a hero.
He should never, IMO, been 'supported' personally in the first place. The cause of gov't overreach, yes. Cliven Bundy, NO.
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musiclady wrote:
[[ We all need to condemn, in powerful unison, what Bundy said. ]]
I will not condemn what Mr. Bundy said.
On the contrary, I will endorse it.
He spoke what is essentially the truth.
But insofar as "race" is concerned in America, whites can no longer speak the truth, or express what they really believe. For almost fifty years, the conversation has been "one-sided", and that "side" is "the left one".
ANYTHING whites say that does not conform to what blacks and the left dictate that they should say is immediately condemned as "racist". Any white that dares speak out will immediately be hounded and crucified in the media, until he/she recants. We have seen this again and again and again and again....
I will no longer swallow that fish, and it dismays me that the good conservatives of this forum scurry for the mouse holes when the subject is raised.
Cliven Bundy said what he said. And what he said, like it or not, represents the sentiments of many whites who look in disgust at what blacks in America have become -- and who are responsible only to themselves for their plight. Whites didn't create the cesspool that is today's black culture -- "The Negro" did this to himself.
I also applaud Mr. Bundy's refusal to back down. The racial conversation in America will remain a one-sided dialogue UNTIL there are more, many more, white folks with the intestinal fortitude of Mr. Bundy.
Good on 'im !!
Adendum:
Was it not Eric Holder himself who once chided Americans as being a "nation of cowards" insofar as race is concerned ??
One thing we know for certain: whatever Cliven Bundy is, and you may call him "racis'" if you wish -- he is NOT one of Mr. Holder's "cowards"...
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musiclady wrote:
[[ We all need to condemn, in powerful unison, what Bundy said. ]]
I will not condemn what Mr. Bundy said.
On the contrary, I will endorse it.
He spoke what is essentially the truth.
But insofar as "race" is concerned in America, whites can no longer speak the truth, or express what they really believe. For almost fifty years, the conversation has been "one-sided", and that "side" is "the left one".
ANYTHING whites say that does not conform to what blacks and the left dictate that they should say is immediately condemned as "racist". Any white that dares speak out will immediately be hounded and crucified in the media, until he/she recants. We have seen this again and again and again and again....
I will no longer swallow that fish, and it dismays me that the good conservatives of this forum scurry for the mouse holes when the subject is raised.
Cliven Bundy said what he said. And what he said, like it or not, represents the sentiments of many whites who look in disgust at what blacks in America have become -- and who are responsible only to themselves for their plight. Whites didn't create the cesspool that is today's black culture -- "The Negro" did this to himself.
I also applaud Mr. Bundy's refusal to back down. The racial conversation in America will remain a one-sided dialogue UNTIL there are more, many more, white folks with the intestinal fortitude of Mr. Bundy.
Good on 'im !!
Exactly White liberals have destroyed black America with help of race hustlers like Al sharpton and Jessie Jack$$on ..And Music lady blacks are worse off on the democratic plantation
the death rate for slavery can not be high as the rate for liberal funded black abortions or the community any worse off with the liberal dogma..don't take responsibly for you actions ,dont condemn the rotten gangster loving culture ..don't condemn race baiting con-men like Sharpton or thugs like St Martin of Skittles or Hurricane Carter, blame whitey and vote democrat...look at Detroit
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I will condemn him for that statement.
No person has the right to own another person. Full bleep stop.
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To both Fishrrman and Charlespg........
No matter WHAT The left has done to distort the conversation, to defend slavery as 'not so bad,' is absolutely INEXCUSABLE.
The left has destroyed the black family, personal ambition, self-respect, security, education and wealth with their welfare state.
And YES.........you will find me perhaps the most vocal on this board about how abortion is black genocide.
But there is no way in all the world that any decent human being should be defending slavery.......on this board, or any other.
We do not respond to the EVIL of the left with more evil.
Stop it.
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Musiclady wrote above:
[[ And YES.........you will find me perhaps the most vocal on this board about how abortion is black genocide.
But there is no way in all the world that any decent human being should be defending slavery.......on this board, or any other. ]]
I was going to post this before but thought it might be too incendiary.
But -- you raised the subject of blacks, abortion, and slavery, so here goes...
Consider the black fetus during the days of slavery, vis-a-vis the black fetus TODAY.
Which fetus had a better chance at being carried to term, to be born, to see the light of day, to breathe?
Bear in mind that TODAY, roughly 50% of all black pregnancies are terminated by abortion.
So... if you had to be a black fetus, and had the power of choice, which would you choose to be? The one during the awful days of slavery, or today??
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Musiclady wrote above:
[[ And YES.........you will find me perhaps the most vocal on this board about how abortion is black genocide.
But there is no way in all the world that any decent human being should be defending slavery.......on this board, or any other. ]]
I was going to post this before but thought it might be too incendiary.
But -- you raised the subject of blacks, abortion, and slavery, so here goes...
Consider the black fetus during the days of slavery, vis-a-vis the black fetus TODAY.
Which fetus had a better chance at being carried to term, to be born, to see the light of day, to breathe?
Bear in mind that TODAY, roughly 50% of all black pregnancies are terminated by abortion.
So... if you had to be a black fetus, and had the power of choice, which would you choose to be? The one during the awful days of slavery, or today??
That's a completely bogus set up. (And I wasn't the one who brought up abortion. I was responding to it).
You cannot say, in good conscience, that the evil of abortion negates the evil of slavery.
You have set up a false dichotomy in order to make a point that cannot be rationally made.
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Here's how Cliven Bundy responded to news reports of "The Negro" statement:
“That’s exactly what I said. I said I’m wondering if they’re better off under government subsidy, and their young women are having the abortions and their young men are in jail, and their older women and their children are standing, sitting out on the cement porch without nothing to do, you know, I’m wondering: Are they happier now under this government subsidy system than they were when they were slaves, and they was able to have their family structure together, and the chickens and garden, and the people had something to do? And so, in my mind I’m wondering, are they better off being slaves, in that sense, or better off being slaves to the United States government, in the sense of the subsidies. I’m wondering. That’s what. And the statement was right. I am wondering.”
I sense a lot of white folks are also "wondering"...
Here's an excerpt from a post I put up on TOS a while back:
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There are “two Americas” now. The “dividing” has been happening for decades (perhaps since the beginning of “The Great Society”), but the two sides are now coalescing into “opposing spheres”. Imagine, if you will, the filmed image of a single cell dividing into two cells. That’s what’s going on in the country right now.
On one side are the “old-fashioned”, “traditional” Americans. These folks still believe in such things as traditional marriage, work, independence, freedom — a “life ethic” that is pretty much derived from the old “Scots-Irish” tradition. They are inherently distrustful of others who “tell them how to live”, and increasingly, that means “government” - a government that seems intent on taking away much of what they have worked for. Perhaps it’s impolite to say so, but the overwhelming majority of the traditional Americans are of “Euro” heritage. These are the “Don’t Tread On Me” people.
On the OTHER side is a growing cohort of people who harbor beliefs that are diametrically opposed from the above group. These people see government as “the giver”. Consequently, they view conservatives who oppose government largesse and power as a threat to their needs, and brand them as intolerant and “racist”.
Call this “the new slavery”, if you will. Only now, it’s government that has become “the new Massa”, and corrupt politicians and their ever expanding cadre of bureaucrats, administrators, and regulators who take on the role of “the new overseers”.
On the one side are those who cherish freedom and mistrust government. On the other, those who crave entitlements and government and its “gifts”, and who don’t seem to care much about their own “freedom”, so long as they get handouts.
source:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2916861/posts?page=16#16
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I wrote that a couple of years' back, about what I see as "the new slavery" in America -- a slavery that too many blacks seem to be all-too-wiling to accept. (Aside, this is a problem NOT limited to blacks alone, but is fast spreading to the white working class. For a seminal article, see Charles Murray's piece in the Wall Street Journal entitled "The Coming White Underclass", originally published on October 29, 1993.)
Mr. Bundy seems to hail from the old Scots-Irish tradition.
Fortunately, he does not seem to be easily intimidated.
No, we don't want "the old slavery" back.
But isn't "the new slavery" such a great leap forward ???
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(https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10153190_10202266987491918_1056391254033570404_n.jpg)
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Ah, yes...............Free Republic............
Racism..............only one of the myriad of reasons I left that filthy place....
But back to the point, which you, yourself made (according to you years ago). Blacks are CHOOSING to live on the Democrat plantation. They did not choose to live on a plantation as a slave, and implying that the two are the same, or that the current 'slavery' is worse, is again, a false dichotomy.
And I will once again reiterate my opinion that abortion is the greatest evil in the history of the country.
But that IN NO WAY negates how evil slavery was.
God led William Wilberforce to end the slave trade because of it was vile and demonic. John Newton was haunted the rest of his life, even after coming to Christ, for the evil he had done on his slave ships.
There is no way in all the world that a rational person can have the position that it wasn't all that bad.
(And I can't believe that, on this otherwise rational board, these things even have to be said. **nononono* )
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Ah, yes...............Free Republic............
Racism..............only one of the myriad of reasons I left that filthy place....
But back to the point, which you, yourself made (according to you years ago). Blacks are CHOOSING to live on the Democrat plantation. They did not choose to live on a plantation as a slave, and implying that the two are the same, or that the current 'slavery' is worse, is again, a false dichotomy.
And I will once again reiterate my opinion that abortion is the greatest evil in the history of the country.
But that IN NO WAY negates how evil slavery was.
God led William Wilberforce to end the slave trade because of it was vile and demonic. John Newton was haunted the rest of his life, even after coming to Christ, for the evil he had done on his slave ships.
There is no way in all the world that a rational person can have the position that it wasn't all that bad.
(And I can't believe that, on this otherwise rational board, these things even have to be said. **nononono* )
goopo
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Music Lady wrote
to defend slavery as 'not so bad,
don't put words in my mouth.I never said slavery was "not so bad " nor do I defend it ..I said Bundy was right about Democratic slavery ,he is not the only person to wonder if they were no better off ...and I For one am tired of Conservatives letting liberals play the race card .I don't give a tinkers damm if Bundy is raciest or not ,Randy Weaver was a white separatist and I still think the FBI Sniper & the SOBs responsible for that fiasco need to be hanged ...This is still about a out of control government,to hell and damnation with what ever some nasty little bleep NYT reporters writes
.Conservatives need to stop wetting our pants every time some liberal skunk screams racism
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And I will once again reiterate my opinion that abortion is the greatest evil in the history of the country.
But that IN NO WAY negates how evil slavery was.
Not a lot of difference, in my book.
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Music Lady wrote don't put words in my mouth.I never said slavery was "not so bad " nor do I defend it ..I said Bundy was right about Democratic slavery ,he is not the only person to wonder if they no better off ...and I For one am tired of Conservatives letting liberals play the race card .I don't give a tinkers damm if Bundy is raciest or not ,Randy Weaver was a white separatist and I still think the FBI Sniper & the SOBs responsible for that fiasco need to be hanged ...This is still about a out of control government,to hell and damnation with what ever some nasty little bleep NYT reporters writes
.Conservatives need to stop wetting our pants every time some liberal skunk screams racism
Wait a minute now.
BUNDY played the race card.
HE brought race unto the debate, and HE stands by his words.
The left didn't play the race card here.
BUNDY played it, and now he's getting his ass kicked for doing so.
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Music Lady wrote don't put words in my mouth.I never said slavery was "not so bad " nor do I defend it ..I said Bundy was right about Democratic slavery ,he is not the only person to wonder if they no better off ...and I For one am tired of Conservatives letting liberals play the race card .I don't give a tinkers damm if Bundy is raciest or not ,Randy Weaver was a white separatist and I still think the FBI Sniper & the SOBs responsible for that fiasco need to be hanged ...This is still about a out of control government,to hell and damnation with what ever some nasty little bleep NYT reporters writes
.Conservatives need to stop wetting our pants every time some liberal skunk screams racism
So, according to you, we should what??? Condone racism? Leave it alone because it's not about us??
Seems to me there's a poem about that............something about Nazis coming for Jews???
It is a ridiculous argument that because the left preys on us, accusing us of racism at every turn where it doesn't exist, that we should IGNORE the real thing because the government is too big.
As far as I'm concerned it is YOU who are cowering because of the attacks of the left, not me. It is YOU who are afraid to speak up against wrongs because the left has lied about you.
I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade. Racism is wrong, no matter how much the left lies. I'm a life-long conservative, and have opposed racism ever since I knew it existed.
And I will NOT let them, nor you, silence me.
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Since this thread long ago slid off into the outfield, I strongly recommend someone lock this thread, everyone take a deep calming breath and move on.
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Since this thread long ago slid off into the outfield, I strongly recommend someone lock this thread, everyone take a deep calming breath and move on.
The debate is over.
That has such a familiar ring.
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Since this thread long ago slid off into the outfield, I strongly recommend someone lock this thread, everyone take a deep calming breath and move on.
...right on time......coming onto a thread that you did NOT participate in and calling for it to be locked.
:whistle:
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Settle down everyone....take a breather....
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There's nothing wrong with the debate on this thread.
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Bundy is now going to be a poster child for the Tea Party and all conservatives. His comments are bizarre. Has he been holed up on that Nevada ranch of his reading nothing but "Gone With the Wind" all these years? It's unfortunate, especially since most of us are Republicans who are proud of our abolitionist roots. We support a society that is truly COLOR BLIND. Relics like Bundy are as much a threat to that goal as Sotomayer is, because they legitimize her contention that the country is essentially racist. We on the right have to be squeaky clean on this issue even as the left engages in separatism and race-baiting. And so Bundy has to be exorcised forthwith in the strongest possible way.
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There's nothing wrong with the debate on this thread.
I agree...not saying there is....
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Settle down everyone....take a breather....
I have taken a breather for the past few weeks. I'm still not smoking and I have also FIRED Government Motors (sold my Chevy Silverado after the second door handle fell off while opening the door) and bought a nice shiny Ford Taurus Limited!
WOO HOO!
The BLM does NOT want to come to TEXAS with their cheap civilian sh*t, is all that I will say on this matter.
MOLON LABE.
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What in hell did Bundy's comments have to do with his issue with the government?
He's loving his 15 minutes of fame with the cameras in his face and he wants to show everybody what a sage he is. And in the course of spouting off he blows all the goodwill he had.
We've seen this guy's type before. The guy who has an opinion on everything and makes sure everybody within earshot hears it.
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Wait a minute now.
BUNDY played the race card.
HE brought race unto the debate, and HE stands by his words.
The left didn't play the race card here.
BUNDY played it, and now he's getting his ass kicked for doing so.
did he ask the question about race or did the reporter
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did he ask the question about race or did the reporter
What difference does that make?
The fool jumped offside , thinking the world wanted to hear his opinion on Negroes and pickin' cotton. And then, like the neanderthal he is, he doubled down on his stupidity today by reiterating what he said.
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did he ask the question about race or did the reporter
I would say that at this point none of that matters.
Bundy is now being painted as a RACIST and that FACT alone is plenty of justification for Harry Reid's threats against a private citizen to be brought to fruition.
Can you say "DEAD MAN WALKING"?
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What difference does that make?
The fool jumped offside , thinking the world wanted to hear his opinion on Negroes and pickin' cotton. And then, like the neanderthal he is, he doubled down on his stupidity today by reiterating what he said.
and the issue is still about government abuse of power
bundy just said ,very poorly its true something to the effect that blacks are no better off under the welfare state then antebellum slavery , I have thought that my self and I wanted Allen West to be president
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and the issue is still about government abuse of power
bundy just said ,very poorly its true something to the effect that blacks are no better off under the welfare state then antebellum slavery , I have thought that my self and I wanted Allen West to be president
The last time that I checked, Cliven Bundy is STILL a PRIVATE CITIZEN of these United States of America and has a right to express his opinion on any matter that he deems fit. If somebody has a problem with that, then I believe that is their personal problem.
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and the issue is still about government abuse of power
bundy just said ,very poorly its true something to the effect that blacks are no better off under the welfare state then antebellum slavery , I have thought that my self and I wanted Allen West to be president
Allen West has said the same thing as Bundy, but more fluently. Defending himself, Bundy said this:
In response to a question from Jones about whether he would support a black farmer in a similar situation, Bundy explained to Jones that "there's a black man right in my front yard, right now, in the militia, and he has been protecting my family, he's been coming to my home, eating my -- eating with me and eating with my family, mingling back and forth through my house, day and night and I can't see anything different about him than any of the other boys that's coming in and out of here."
He added, "We love him and respect him the same as we do anyone else. I think he feels as comfortable as anybody else, that's really the way we're supposed to feel about each other."
That is not a racist, but someone who isn't used to speaking in public. He could not relate accurately what was in his heart. I don't get all the hub-bub surrounding this comments.
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That is not a racist, but someone who isn't used to speaking in public. He could not relate accurately what was in his heart. I don't get all the hub-bub surrounding this comments.
That's what it boils down to...the man is inarticulate and not used to public speaking or expressing his point of view...
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(http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/528x480xBLM-snipers-outside-of-Bundy-Ranch.jpg.pagespeed.ic.XLsmgH6J0G.jpg)
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/robert-farago/incendiary-image-of-the-day-bureau-of-land-management-sharpshooters-edition/)
I may have limited knowledge of snipers, but I don't think this looks like what snipers should look like. I don't see any weapons in this photo.
And don't snipers do a much better job of concealing their positions?
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It seems Media Matters did some creative editing of the video.
http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/
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and the issue is still about government abuse of power
bundy just said ,very poorly its true something to the effect that blacks are no better off under the welfare state then antebellum slavery , I have thought that my self and I wanted Allen West to be president
If you believe that blacks are no better off today than they were under slavery, WHEN THEY WERE OWNED BY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, you know nothing about slavery.
Alan West couldn't even win re-election to Congress. Fat chance he could be elected President.
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The last time that I checked, Cliven Bundy is STILL a PRIVATE CITIZEN of these United States of America and has a right to express his opinion on any matter that he deems fit. If somebody has a problem with that, then I believe that is their personal problem.
I completely agree with that!
I personally will never defend slavery and am quite sure Cliven Bundy could have said what he was trying to say much better than he did. Having said that, he IS free to say whatever he wishes about anything he wishes and suffer the consequences of doing so.
.
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Bundy is now going to be a poster child for the Tea Party and all conservatives. His comments are bizarre. Has he been holed up on that Nevada ranch of his reading nothing but "Gone With the Wind" all these years? It's unfortunate, especially since most of us are Republicans who are proud of our abolitionist roots. We support a society that is truly COLOR BLIND. Relics like Bundy are as much a threat to that goal as Sotomayer is, because they legitimize her contention that the country is essentially racist. We on the right have to be squeaky clean on this issue even as the left engages in separatism and race-baiting. And so Bundy has to be exorcised forthwith in the strongest possible way.
Spot on.
The damage that Bundy is doing to conservatism is nearly unfathomable.
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It seems Media Matters did some creative editing of the video.
http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/
Nothing new about that! It's one of their trademarks!
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and the issue is still about government abuse of power
bundy just said ,very poorly its true something to the effect that blacks are no better off under the welfare state then antebellum slavery , I have thought that my self and I wanted Allen West to be president
Don't spin for Bundy. We detest Jay Carney for doing it for Obama, so us doing it is hypocritical.
Bundy said what he said. I heard it, as did everyone else, and very few of us require translation services.
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One thing that burns our side over and over and over (yet seems to work for libs) is lionizing characters instead of policy. We stake so much emotion and energy in defending the individual we lose focus on what policy or principle we stand for. We make people saints when they are just humans, with all their faults.
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I completely agree with that!
I personally will never defend slavery and am quite sure Cliven Bundy could have said what he was trying to say much better than he did. Having said that, he IS free to say whatever he wishes about anything he wishes and suffer the consequences of doing so.
.
The fact remains that Mr. Bundy's opinions on Negroes/Slavery/The Welfare Plantation are not at all relevant.
What IS quite relevant is the FACT that our government is completely and totally out of control. The outrages against American Citizens are becoming more brazen on a daily basis.
Sooner or later we will be required to stand up and take this government down a notch or two. I believe that "sooner" is the better option.
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I may have limited knowledge of snipers, but I don't think this looks like what snipers should look like. I don't see any weapons in this photo.
And don't snipers do a much better job of concealing their positions?
It depends. Snipers have two completely separate jobs. Taking someone out from a distance, or discouraging anyone from starting something in the first place. Army snipers tend to do the former, police snipers tend to be used for the latter. The people you are looking at are not the snipers though - they are the spotters.
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Don't spin for Bundy. We detest Jay Carney for doing it for Obama, so us doing it is hypocritical.
Bundy said what he said. I heard it, as did everyone else, and very few of us require translation services.
Jay Carney is not a Private Citizen as Mr. Bundy is. Huge difference.
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So what you're saying is that Cliven Bundy made these statements in order to provide leftist and the media (that's somewhat redundant, isn't it?) with a distraction to take attention away from the government abuses that he's protesting against?
Do I have that right?
What a silly question! Of course that is not what I said! Why would Bundy make those statements knowingly to distract the public away from his cause? Clearly, Bundy has not won his case - but he's standing firm in his fight - and God love him, you've got to admire his resolve if nothing else. He thinks he is in the right and he's not backing down - he's a stubborn old coot!
Luis, I know that you have posted much information that pertains to this Bundy case, and I thank you for it - you have gone over and above in providing legal and historical data that shows - clearly, I think - that Bundy is on the losing side of the legality of this. But, what I have taken from this whole story is an enlightenment of how the Federal Government is seemingly going out of the way to thwart ranchers, farmers and other individuals in trying to maintain family businesses that have been operated for generations. People that are not doing any harm, that are producing products that are beneficial to the American people and to our economy. The problem just seems to be getting worse and worse - as your avatar so vividly portrays with the frog in the pot - things are starting to boil over!
If nothing else, I appreciate that Bundy brought this to our attention. It is eye-opening and especially to those of us living in the east - I was shocked to see the map of just how much land the BLM controls. I think it was this Bundy incident that brought it into the spotlight and the reports of armed snipers, attack dogs - the killing of cattle rather than auctioning them off to recoup some of those delinquent fees.....a lot of us are scratching our heads and thinking "What the hell, can't they just put a lien on his property?"
What the hell indeed. And NOW, of course it has been revealed to us that Bundy is, besides being a domestic terrorist - he is a RACIST! :thud: Personally, I don't think he is an evil man. I think he got caught up in being a media celebrity and got caught thinking out loud. I don't agree with what he said, but I do think that too many people (and especially urban blacks) are virtually enslaved by a progressive government that has dangled freebies at the cost of dignity - and doubling down on it more every day!
There's a lot of people getting damn sick and tired of it too. It nauseates me to see us fight among ourselves because the media is demonizing an old man that is standing up to the gov't the only way he knows how. When the media says, "jump" - we say, "how high"? How high must we jump to prove to you that we are not racist - how high do we jump to make you love US? When the media sets the trap, the Bundy's of the world spring it and get caught in the trap - while the rest of us run out to try to get the cheese before we scurry back into our mouseholes. It's pitiful how we let THEM define us!
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It seems Media Matters did some creative editing of the video.
http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/
SEE THAT CLIVEN BUNDY IS ACTUALLY AN ADVOCATE FOR BLACKS, HISPANICS
Watch Bundy explain how we need to keep things from going backwards for blacks, and how the Federal government has created a neo-slave class via entitlement dependency that is so bad it is arguably worse than plantation slavery was. It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton, but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse. (If you are person of low intelligence, the fact that that is his point might be too hard for you to understand.) And he’s not blaming blacks for the issues of abortions, and crime and broken families, he’s blaming the Feds. This is the exact opposite of a racist, this is an advocate for the welfare and best interests of blacks. And just as importantly, you’ll at the end of the video he gives passionate praise and defense of hispanic illegal aliens, lauding them for “better family structures than most white peoples’” Racist? Why is he praising Mexicans as better than whites, if he’s some sort of white supremacist racist?. Take a hike all you lying, character-assassinating, leftist pieces of dog shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI&feature=player_embedded
Now watch the edited version of Bundy’s remarks as promoted by the left-wing Media Matters and as reported in the NY Times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbnRnhrNFEY&feature=player_embedded
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The fact remains that Mr. Bundy's opinions on Negroes/Slavery/The Welfare Plantation are not at all relevant.
What IS quite relevant is the FACT that our government is completely and totally out of control. The outrages against American Citizens are becoming more brazen on a daily basis.
Sooner or later we will be required to stand up and take this government down a notch or two. I believe that "sooner" is the better option.
Maybe so, but Bundy‘s complaints against the Feds were not cut-and-dried. And in 21st century Amerika being a racist is a bigger crime than murder. That is just the way it is.
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Maybe so, but Bundy‘s complaints against the Feds were not cut-and-dried. And in 21st century Amerika being a racist is a bigger crime than murder. That is just the way it is.
It is my considered opinion that the instant that an individual utters the word "racist", they should immediately receive a solid punch in the mouth.
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With all due respect, an African-American on today's progressive plantation is shackled only by his own mind. He can leave if he so chooses. African-American slaves had no such right. An African-American slave was shackled with bonds of steel and threats of death. If a slave left his master's plantation without permission, he could be hunted down and dragged back. Under the Supreme Court's ruling in the Dred Scott case, an enslaved person was almost a non-entity: they were not considered citizens of a state, even if they were emancipated.
Not only is Mr. Bundy's statement flagrantly wrong, it also gainsays everything Republicans and conservatives have said about racism. If Mr. Bundy's statement were correct, then Blacks are still subjugated by racism and therefore affirmative action and anti-discrimination programs would be justified.
Mr. Bundy is not a hero. Any conservative or Republican who treats him as such does incalculable damage.
What about those of us that stand by Mr. Bundy, American Citizen? As an OathKeeper, it is my sworn obligation to stand in his defense against tyranny. One that I take seriously and without reservation.
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Don't spin for Bundy. We detest Jay Carney for doing it for Obama, so us doing it is hypocritical.
Bundy said what he said. I heard it, as did everyone else, and very few of us require translation services.
look if you want to keep drinking the kool aid go ahead ,this guy is old man ,who is not media savvy, is not public speaker and made the mistake of talking to members of a lying media ..you and music lady can make remarks insinuating that those who support Bundy are raciest all the live long day
We are still supposed have free speech in this country .and if you think that the BLM should allowed to railroad this man because of some stupid comments or some CNN hatchet job ..and spare me the howls about grazing fees .If I was being forced to pay fees being used to buy out my neighbors ,and run me off my land I would not pay the fees either
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What about those of us that stand by Mr. Bundy, American Citizen? As an OathKeeper, it is my sworn obligation to stand in his defense against tyranny. One that I take seriously and without reservation.
Refusing to pay the same grazing fees that his ranching counterparts pay, in accordance to the law, isn't standing up to tyranny. It's basically an alternate version of refusing to pay taxes. This guy needs to shut the hell up and pay his share. There are plenty of things to be outraged about re: the federal government, but this guy's tale of woe isn't one of them.
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Allen West has said the same thing as Bundy, but more fluently. Defending himself, Bundy said this:
That is not a racist, but someone who isn't used to speaking in public. He could not relate accurately what was in his heart. I don't get all the hub-bub surrounding this comments.
It is because there are elements on both the left and right that are desperately seeking *anything* to make this all go away!! The core issues here make too many people too damn uncomfortable and they really don't want to face up to how "hard" this tyranny is getting every day. Much easier to "criminalize" the guy standing up to it, rather than back him (regardless if he is "spotless" or not). So this is just another excuse to pile on the old man, and hope nothing comes of his protest. Some spend day and night researching every little jot and tittle to try to make Bundy out to be the bad guy, and in effect, make excuses for the federal gubmint. Pretty sad if you think about it, but certainly not unexpected.... Don't want anyone to make too many waves to disrupt their bidness, retirement accounts, or vacation plans.....
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The fact remains that Mr. Bundy's opinions on Negroes/Slavery/The Welfare Plantation are not at all relevant.
What IS quite relevant is the FACT that our government is completely and totally out of control. The outrages against American Citizens are becoming more brazen on a daily basis.
Sooner or later we will be required to stand up and take this government down a notch or two. I believe that "sooner" is the better option.
I agree totally, Howie!! But you know, that for many, that is a bridge that they don't really want to cross. They'd prefer the "later" option, preferably after their lifetimes..... they'd rather knock themselves out making up flimsy excuses for the federal gubmint than face reality... damn disgusting...
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Refusing to pay the same grazing fees that his ranching counterparts pay, in accordance to the law, isn't standing up to tyranny. It's basically an alternate version of refusing to pay taxes. This guy needs to shut the hell up and pay his share. There are plenty of things to be outraged about re: the federal government, but this guy's tale of woe isn't one of them.
Really?
Looks to me that the Federals as claiming to own land that isn't theirs to own in the first place.
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SEE THAT CLIVEN BUNDY IS ACTUALLY AN ADVOCATE FOR BLACKS, HISPANICS
Watch Bundy explain how we need to keep things from going backwards for blacks, and how the Federal government has created a neo-slave class via entitlement dependency that is so bad it is arguably worse than plantation slavery was. It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton, but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse. (If you are person of low intelligence, the fact that that is his point might be too hard for you to understand.) And he’s not blaming blacks for the issues of abortions, and crime and broken families, he’s blaming the Feds. This is the exact opposite of a racist, this is an advocate for the welfare and best interests of blacks. And just as importantly, you’ll at the end of the video he gives passionate praise and defense of hispanic illegal aliens, lauding them for “better family structures than most white peoples’” Racist? Why is he praising Mexicans as better than whites, if he’s some sort of white supremacist racist?. Take a hike all you lying, character-assassinating, leftist pieces of dog shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI&feature=player_embedded
Now watch the edited version of Bundy’s remarks as promoted by the left-wing Media Matters and as reported in the NY Times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbnRnhrNFEY&feature=player_embedded
Thank you so much for posting this, Hap. Of course, this just rains on the parade of those that thought they would finally turn everyone against Bundy... lol
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I agree totally, Howie!! But you know, that for many, that is a bridge that they don't really want to cross. They'd prefer the "later" option, preferably after their lifetimes..... they'd rather knock themselves out making up flimsy excuses for the federal gubmint than face reality... damn disgusting...
Amen to that!
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It is because there are elements on both the left and right that are desperately seeking *anything* to make this all go away!! The core issues here make too many people too damn uncomfortable and they really don't want to face up to how "hard" this tyranny is getting every day. Much easier to "criminalize" the guy standing up to it, rather than back him (regardless if he is "spotless" or not). So this is just another excuse to pile on the old man, and hope nothing comes of his protest. Some spend day and night researching every little jot and tittle to try to make Bundy out to be the bad guy, and in effect, make excuses for the federal gubmint. Pretty sad if you think about it, but certainly not unexpected.... Don't want anyone to make too many waves to disrupt their bidness, retirement accounts, or vacation plans.....
Well said and spot on correct!
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Thank you so much for posting this, Hap. Of course, this just rains on the parade of those that thought they would finally turn everyone against Bundy... lol
My dream would be for anybody associated with the "MSM" to be required to wear insignia announcing that status to everybody that they encounter in public.
Just sayin.... :beer:
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Well said and spot on correct!
I'm waiting to see how this Bureau of Land Mismanagement wants to approach things here in Texas.
I am ready for our own showdown with these numbnuts.
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Since this thread long ago slid off into the outfield, I strongly recommend someone lock this thread, everyone take a deep calming breath and move on.
It has remained on track through its entirety.
Thread topic........"Bundy stands by his 'better off' as slaves comments."
My point solid through it all. No matter what the left throws at us about being 'racist' we are cowering to THEM if we don't call real racism what it is.
The unfortunate fact is that there really are racists in this country......MOST on the left, but clearly a few on the right as well.
It is a problem of the human heart.
William Wilberforce felt God's call to end the slave trade in England. John Newton was haunted until his death by the evil of slavery and his part in it.
Anyone who white washes evil and says it isn't so, is in the wrong.
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I believe that Ms. Kira Davis has hit the nail squarely on the head with her take on this.
http://youtu.be/n0zoee4k7yE (http://youtu.be/n0zoee4k7yE)
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More and more, every day, I am beginning to think politics is just a big scripted reality show and we are all being played as suckers by the players who just want eyes on TVs and papers.
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SEE THAT CLIVEN BUNDY IS ACTUALLY AN ADVOCATE FOR BLACKS, HISPANICS
Thanks for posting this, happy. I am new to this story - I took my eyes and ears off the "news" for just a few hours and returned to find this story has more coverage than flight 370!
It's clear that Bundy isn't an articulate spokesman, and he's very politically naive. But what he says, if you listen to these quotes you've posted, is pretty much what a lot of conservatives have been saying for years. Welfare programs have made inner city blacks dependent on the gov't. And Planned Parenthood was started by Margaret Sanger, a known racist. Almost half of black babies are aborted. And the babies that survive are often trapped in poor schools where they don't get an education and wind up unemployed, unemployable, and likely to be involved in criminal activities. The girls too often become single mothers and the boys too often wind up in jail.
So he didn't phrase it well, but what did he say that conservatives object to?
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Thanks for posting this, happy. I am new to this story - I took my eyes and ears off the "news" for just a few hours and returned to find this story has more coverage than flight 370!
It's clear that Bundy isn't an articulate spokesman, and he's very politically naive. But what he says, if you listen to these quotes you've posted, is pretty much what a lot of conservatives have been saying for years. Welfare programs have made inner city blacks dependent on the gov't. And Planned Parenthood was started by Margaret Sanger, a known racist. Almost half of black babies are aborted. And the babies that survive are often trapped in poor schools where they don't get an education and wind up unemployed, unemployable, and likely to be involved in criminal activities. The girls too often become single mothers and the boys too often wind up in jail.
So he didn't phrase it well, but what did he say that conservatives object to?
That being "trapped" in welfare is equivalent to being owned, whipped, forced to work at will, by another human being.
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Mr. Bundy is not being subjected to any tyranny. The BLM was certainly overzealous in its efforts to enforce the lawful court orders it had to remove Mr. Bundy's trespassing cattle from federal land. Overzealousness is not tyranny. Sheriffs and marshals routinely use force to evict people who refuse to comply with court orders. Further, in many states, an evicted tenant's belongings can simply be dumped on the curb and the tenant cannot do anything if the property is damaged or stolen.
Much of the sympathy I had for Bundy has evaporated. The thought of one person owning another is abhorrent to me, and anyone who can suggest it is a good thing is someone I would like to meet one on one.
However, we are not talking a couch and some clothes here - we are talking the end result of a century long breeding program.
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Thanks for posting this, happy. I am new to this story - I took my eyes and ears off the "news" for just a few hours and returned to find this story has more coverage than flight 370!
It's clear that Bundy isn't an articulate spokesman, and he's very politically naive. But what he says, if you listen to these quotes you've posted, is pretty much what a lot of conservatives have been saying for years. Welfare programs have made inner city blacks dependent on the gov't. And Planned Parenthood was started by Margaret Sanger, a known racist. Almost half of black babies are aborted. And the babies that survive are often trapped in poor schools where they don't get an education and wind up unemployed, unemployable, and likely to be involved in criminal activities. The girls too often become single mothers and the boys too often wind up in jail.
So he didn't phrase it well, but what did he say that conservatives object to?
It's not what he said, but how the Libtards doctored his comments and then started painting him as a "racist", per SOP.
That's enough to get the "play-along-to-get-along squishes" to start feeding on someone. Nevermind that some in the GOP would have learned that when the Media reports something terrible that may possibly reflect poorly on "conservatives", it's usually bullsh*t in the first place.
Remember their philosophy: "The Ends Justify The Means".
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Mr. Bundy is not being subjected to any tyranny. The BLM was certainly overzealous in its efforts to enforce the lawful court orders it had to remove Mr. Bundy's trespassing cattle from federal land. Overzealousness is not tyranny. Sheriffs and marshals routinely use force to evict people who refuse to comply with court orders. Further, in many states, an evicted tenant's belongings can simply be dumped on the curb and the tenant cannot do anything if the property is damaged or stolen.
I would strongly suggest that you delve into the motivation for the BLM to arrive on scene with SWAT Teams and snipers, my friend. Take a good look at the actions of Harry Reid and his son along with the Chinese Government at the same time.
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Then, with all due respect, you need better glasses. The land from which BLM wanted to evict Mr. Bundy's cattle was, and is, indisputably the sole property of the federal government and has been such ever since Mexico ceded the property to the US after the Mexican-American war.
Oh. Okay, then! My bad!
BLM should feel free to let loose the dogs of war, then! Hell....the guy's a racist, anyway.
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Then, with all due respect, you need better glasses. The land from which BLM wanted to evict Mr. Bundy's cattle was, and is, indisputably the sole property of the federal government and has been such ever since Mexico ceded the property to the US after the Mexican-American war.
And so was every square inch of every state formed out of land unquestionably purchased by the federal government in the Louisiana purchase! ALL of that land was given to the states when they became states. Why is Nevada and all the other Western states being treated differently?
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With all due respect, an African-American on today's progressive plantation is shackled only by his own mind. He can leave if he so chooses. African-American slaves had no such right. An African-American slave was shackled with bonds of steel and threats of death. If a slave left his master's plantation without permission, he could be hunted down and dragged back. Under the Supreme Court's ruling in the Dred Scott case, an enslaved person was almost a non-entity: they were not considered citizens of a state, even if they were emancipated.
Not only is Mr. Bundy's statement flagrantly wrong, it also gainsays everything Republicans and conservatives have said about racism. If Mr. Bundy's statement were correct, then Blacks are still subjugated by racism and therefore affirmative action and anti-discrimination programs would be justified.
Mr. Bundy is not a hero. Any conservative or Republican who treats him as such does incalculable damage.
The shackles of the mind can be just as powerful as REAL shackles. How many blacks still think they are oppressed - in spite of the fact that we have elected a black president? The Al Sharptons of the world have to keep them thinking that, for their own greedy purposes. How many wives stay with an abusive spouse because they don't think they can make it on their own? They are virtual slaves too. Mr. Bundy did not say that he thought slavery was a GOOD thing - he mused that perhaps todays blacks were victims of a different kind of slavery - a slavery of the mind. They may not be beaten if they try to escape - but they will be pilloried, mocked and ostracized publicly all the same - and that can be a powerful deterrent to someone with low self-esteem who has been told their whole life they are "oppressed".
Lastly, never forget the words of a very wise and absolutely non-bigoted powerful white man:
"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden said. "I mean, that's a storybook, man."
"They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
Nope. No plantation there! No-sir-ee. :whistle:
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It was very nice of the federal government to yield the entire Louisiana Purchase to the states formed from that territory. But nice does not make it mandatory. There is nothing in the Constitution or common sense that obligates the federal government to relinquish title over territory ceded to it by a foreign government. The why of it probably makes for some fascinating history, but it does not provide Mr. Bundy with even the slenderest of reeds on which to build his sand castle legal theories.
Except for the fact that fed gov is supposed to treat all states equally. Some states should not be more equal than others in this country!
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This is what real slavery looks like:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Cicatrices_de_flagellation_sur_un_esclave.jpg/290px-Cicatrices_de_flagellation_sur_un_esclave.jpg)
That you would even countenance equating "virtual slavery" with that is disturbing.
There was some of that no doubt but to say that EVERY slave owner engaged in such is an outright untruth! They did not! Most people won't go out and buy a new BMW only to take it home and beat the hell out of it with a sledgehammer!
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Really? Do tell. But first, please tell me you aren't going to trot out the thoroughly false "Equal Footing" nonsense.
I don't need to "trot out" anything as there has been an ongoing "argument" in the courts over it for about 30 years now! Even has a name! They call it the Sagebrush rebellion but I personally think that is a misnomer as well.
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That you would even countenance equating "virtual slavery" with that is disturbing.
Thank you for posting that photo, Loki.
While I have been silent on BLM/Bundy issue (reading both sides and learning from both sides, but without enough legal knowledge myself to be sure which is right), I am incensed that voluntary shackles are in any way being compared to the vile, ugly reality of slavery.
It doesn't matter how much the left abuses the subject and falsely accuses, slavery.......REAL slavery was and is more horrible that we can imagine (there's still plenty of it going on today all over the world).
Bundy was not merely inarticulate, and IMO, defending his words and saying that it's what we all think, is extremely disturbing, and a denial of one of the greatest evils in the history of this great Republic.
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There was some of that no doubt but to say that EVERY slave owner engaged in such is an outright untruth! They did not! Most people won't go out and buy a new BMW only to take it home and beat the hell out of it with a sledgehammer!
It doesn't matter if every slave owner was brutal, Bigun. They OWNED other human beings, and treated them as property.
And they didn't stop their brutal neighbors from using a sledgehammer on their "BMW's".
SLAVERY WAS and IS EVIL!
(WHY does this need to be said???)
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And not every Jew was sent straight to the gas chambers. After all, most Nazis wouldn't go out and spend the resources to ship millions of people thousands of miles just to gas them instead of getting some useful labor out of them.
Does that excuse the Holocaust?
Of course not! Intentional mischaracterizations of anything thing are wrong in my book!
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It doesn't matter if every slave owner was brutal, Bigun. They OWNED other human beings, and treated them as property.
And they didn't stop their brutal neighbors from using a sledgehammer on their "BMW's".
SLAVERY WAS and IS EVIL!
(WHY does this need to be said???)
Unfortunately it was also LEGAL!
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That being "trapped" in welfare is equivalent to being owned, whipped, forced to work at will, by another human being.
That's an oversimplification using terms that benefit the liberal story. Do you think the inner city blacks have freedom and opportunity? Do they have the dignity that goes with having a job and a family and being responsible for both? You put the wow "trapped" in quotes, so that must mean you think it's their choice to live that way?
So, slavery is bad, so anything else is good?
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Unfortunately it was also LEGAL!
Yes. And a perfect example of the utter depravity of man.
There is no defending it, nor rightful claim that it was no worse than the welfare state.
The fact of the matter is that there are blacks like Ben Carson and Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas. The condition blacks are in in America now cannot, in any rational way, be compared to the wretched, evil condition of slavery.
And frankly, I am still appalled that anyone is doing it here on this forum.
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Then why does the relatively humane way that a few slave owners treated the human beings whose souls they owned - their two-legged BMWs - excuse the reality of slavery?
To claim the right to own another human being is to claim the right to own his soul. That is wrong. In my book it is one of the greatest of sins. And no amount of decent material conditions can lessen the evil inherent in claiming the right to own someone's soul.
Then why does the relatively humane way that a few most slave owners treated the human beings whose souls they owned - their two-legged BMWs - excuse the reality of slavery?
With that correction I agree with you but the FACT is that slavery was legal and engaged in by both whites , blacks, and browns. It is a historical fact that we cannot change no matter how we try!
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It's not what he said, but how the Libtards doctored his comments and then started painting him as a "racist", per SOP.
That's enough to get the "play-along-to-get-along squishes" to start feeding on someone. Nevermind that some in the GOP would have learned that when the Media reports something terrible that may possibly reflect poorly on "conservatives", it's usually bullsh*t in the first place.
Remember their philosophy: "The Ends Justify The Means".
Yes. I think this is one of the first "feeding frenzies" of the 2014 election season, and I'm sorry to see that so many are willing to play along. The dims must be high fiving all around tonight, and planning their next move. There's sure to be another quote from someone that can even top this. Selective editing can do wonders. :shrug:
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That's an oversimplification using terms that benefit the liberal story. Do you think the inner city blacks have freedom and opportunity? Do they have the dignity that goes with having a job and a family and being responsible for both? You put the wow "trapped" in quotes, so that must mean you think it's their choice to live that way?
So, slavery is bad, so anything else is good?
Inner city blacks still have the CHOICE to either stay in their circumstances or be FREE of them.
Slaves had no such choice.
And the idea that arguing about the evil of slavery means that one things 'anything else is good' is not even rational.
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Yes. And a perfect example of the utter depravity of man.
There is no defending it, nor rightful claim that it was no worse than the welfare state.
The fact of the matter is that there are blacks like Ben Carson and Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas. The condition blacks are in in America now cannot, in any rational way, be compared to the wretched, evil condition of slavery.
And frankly, I am still appalled that anyone is doing it here on this forum.
Surely you are not aiming that at me??
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Yes. And a perfect example of the utter depravity of man.
There is no defending it, nor rightful claim that it was no worse than the welfare state.
The fact of the matter is that there are blacks like Ben Carson and Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas. The condition blacks are in in America now cannot, in any rational way, be compared to the wretched, evil condition of slavery.
And frankly, I am still appalled that anyone is doing it here on this forum.
There were black slave owners in the US.
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Yes. I think this is one of the first "feeding frenzies" of the 2014 election season, and I'm sorry to see that so many are willing to play along. The dims must be high fiving all around tonight, and planning their next move. There's sure to be another quote from someone that can even top this. Selective editing can do wonders. :shrug:
So now, stating factually that slavery was evil and disagreeing with Bundy's careless words is "playing along" with the "libtards?"
You've got to be kidding me. **nononono*
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Inner city blacks still have the CHOICE to either stay in their circumstances or be FREE of them.
Slaves had no such choice.
And the idea that arguing about the evil of slavery means that one things 'anything else is good' is not even rational.
Inner city blacks are choosing that? Maybe a few are, but exactly how do you see a choice for them? What future is there for an uneducated person with no job skills? Esp. if that person is a young woman with a child or two or three...
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There were black slave owners in the US.
So??? I know the history of slavery in the US.
And trust me, no one kidnapped, put in shackles, packed in the hold of ships, body next to body, still in chains, and sold on the market, northern Europeans.
Again.............just because the left has distorted the subject and used it falsely, and the white leftists have created a ridiculously false white guilt, doesn't excuse the denial of what really happened here.
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Inner city blacks are choosing that? Maybe a few are, but exactly how do you see a choice for them? What future is there for an uneducated person with no job skills? Esp. if that person is a young woman with a child or two or three...
The historical TRUTH is that they were put there on purpose, with malice and forethought , by Lyndon Baines Johnson for the sole puropse of "having those n*ggers vote democrat for the next two hundred years"
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So now, stating factually that slavery was evil and disagreeing with Bundy's careless words is "playing along" with the "libtards?"
You've got to be kidding me. **nononono*
Making a big deal of Bundy's words is definitely playing along. Of course slavery was evil. And his point that our welfare system is pretty awful and traps people in terrible living conditions is true, too. He made a mistake by comparing the two. We don't need to treat that comparison like the only way to discuss either issue.
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So??? I know the history of slavery in the US.
And trust me, no one kidnapped, put in shackles, packed in the hold of ships, body next to body, still in chains, and sold on the market, northern Europeans.
Again.............just because the left has distorted the subject and used it falsely, and the white leftists have created a ridiculously false white guilt, doesn't excuse the denial of what really happened here.
But please don't neglect the fact that the VAST majority of them were sold to the northern Europeans in the first place by their BLACK African neighbors!
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So??? I know the history of slavery in the US.
And trust me, no one kidnapped, put in shackles, packed in the hold of ships, body next to body, still in chains, and sold on the market, northern Europeans.
Again.............just because the left has distorted the subject and used it falsely, and the white leftists have created a ridiculously false white guilt, doesn't excuse the denial of what really happened here.
If you know history, then you know that the word "slave" comes from slavic; the people who were the first slaves.
And you also know that many Europeans came here as indentured servants - those were slaves with a time limit.
So plenty of Europeans knew something about being slaves.
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Inner city blacks are choosing that? Maybe a few are, but exactly how do you see a choice for them? What future is there for an uneducated person with no job skills? Esp. if that person is a young woman with a child or two or three...
There are plenty of individuals who have been able, by choice, to overcome poverty. I didn't say (don't twist words, please) that people chose to be in poverty. I said that there are choices available to them to get out of their circumstances. There was no such choice for Africans sold into slavery.
We can quibble over the word 'choice' and what it means, but it is not a valid argument to say that being in an inner city in the US with ways available to extricate oneself, is the same as being beaten to a pulp by someone who OWNS you.
(And I do know how horrific life is in the inner city, but worse than slavery? Not even close).
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The historical TRUTH is that they were put there on purpose, with malice and forethought , by Lyndon Baines Johnson for the sole puropse of "having those n*ggers vote democrat for the next two hundred years"
True. And he did know what he was doing, didn't he?
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True. And he did know what he was doing, didn't he?
OH yeah! It has worked to perfection!
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If you know history, then you know that the word "slave" comes from slavic; the people who were the first slaves.
And you also know that many Europeans came here as indentured servants - those were slaves with a time limit.
So plenty of Europeans knew something about being slaves.
Oh, for heaven's sake! We're not talking about indentured servitude (which was voluntary, and temporary). We're talking about forced slavery that lasted for centuries.
Name me one Swede who came to the colonies in 1650 as a slave and whose family were still slaves in 1850.
You KNOW that's a spurious argument.
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This is what real slavery looks like:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Cicatrices_de_flagellation_sur_un_esclave.jpg/290px-Cicatrices_de_flagellation_sur_un_esclave.jpg)
That you would even countenance equating "virtual slavery" with that is disturbing.
Why don't you try explaining that to a small child in Chicago that has to run a gauntlet just to make it home alive after school? Can you honestly say the quality of his little life is so much better?
I don't get mad very often here - but I'm going to say something. How dare YOU and some of these other posters insinuate that the fact that I happen to think that the situation in today's black community is very dire, and that I liken it to a form of slavery all on it's own - how dare you insinuate that I equate - and therefore lessen the evil of one human owning another human being?
YOU and these others - do you really think that I and others condone SLAVERY in any shape, form or fashion? Don't you dare talk down to me like that! For God's sake - No. One. Is. Saying. Slavery. Is. Not. EVIL. This "attitude" that you have to "explain" this to me is extremely offensive to me! NO ONE is defending slavery of ANY kind!
If people here don't know me any better than that.........................I can't even say the words I am thinking right now. I am done with this conversation - if I could, I would slam the door in your face!
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But please don't neglect the fact that the VAST majority of them were sold to the northern Europeans in the first place by their BLACK African neighbors!
Of course I know that. Good grief, people!
That doesn't change the basic facts that Africans were shipped, starved and even dumped overboard on vile, filthy slave ships and sold at auctions in the US, and beaten by their owners.
Why do you think John Newton called himself a "wretch" in the song he penned, "Amazing Grace?"
Because his part in slavery caused him guilt that never left him until he died. God forgave him, but he never forgave himself for the EVIL that he did to innocent blacks.
As for LBJ, I completely agree that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing in creating a new 'plantation' by signing the CRA. But that still does not excuse the white washing of what slavery really was.
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That goes for you too, musiclady!!!
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That goes for you too, musiclady!!!
I haven't said a word to you, alice. I haven't even read what you've said.
If you don't like what I've said to others, there's not much I can do to correct it, is there?
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That goes for you too, musiclady!!!
btw, I just read what you said above and completely agree that life for kids in inner city Chicago is dire, and they should never, EVER be 'running the gauntlet' for their lives.
And it is totally the fault of leftist policies and the racism of the welfare state.
So do we just disagree on the one point that it is not as bad as slavery (and you think it is?)
As I said, I haven't read your perspective, and I respect you, so if you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.
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Nothing new about that! It's one of their trademarks!
Sorry Bigun, he's an ignorant idiot.
Whoever Pat Dollard is, he (or she) is just as big an idiot:
It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton, but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse. (If you are person of low intelligence, the fact that that is his point might be too hard for you to understand.)
What's with that last sentence?
Is English Dollard's second language?
Dollard doubles down on Bundy's stupidity, then calls others stupid for seeing the point that he (or she) is missing:
Here it is:
"... their current situation may actually be worse."
Really?
Let's start with one safe assumption.
There are very few, if any, people in the United States that can have a proper conversation about how it felt like to be a slave.
Not Bundy, not Pat Dollard, not Al Sharpton, not Barack Obama.
What it is that we do know about slavery, is so foul, so vile and so evil that while we may all be able to imagine what being a slave may have felt like, none of us can come close to understanding what being a slave actually felt like.
If anyone reading doesn't have a full understanding of the depths of the evil that is slavery, I suggest that you may want to do some reading.
For Bundy to suggest that "their" current situation may actually be worse today than it was when "they" were being sold, bred, beaten, raped, branded, and dumped overboard as excess chained baggage, exposes an astounding level of ignorance, and (or) his abject callousness and lack of humanity.
... they were better off then.
That's what this moron is saying.
Iago in a Stetson lacking the eloquence.
Bundy needs to stop his vacuous soliloquy and crawl back under whatever sun-bleached rock it is that he's been living his antebellum fantasies under. He is damaging the cause that he claims to espouse.
When this is all said and done, the one thing that Cliven Bundy will get credit for, is saving the left the time and energy that it would have taken them to invent a Cliven Bundy.
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Interesting side note......
The tune of the hymn "Amazing Grace," written by a former slave-trader, saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, while often credited as "American" is actually written on a pentatonic scale......one used in Africa......and more likely was a tune that Newton heard from the slaves, chained in the ship's cargo hold, while he was bringing them to be sold at auction, and owned by masters. ("American" tunes were written in the modes of their European roots, not on the five note scale of Africa and Asia).
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There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.
You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.
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There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.
You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.
Actually, there are more slaves currently in the world than there were at the time of the Civil War.
And you can tell some of them by the brick kilns and quarries (among others) where they live and work in for their masters. Only, unlike American slaves, they are "disposable people." Plenty more where they came from, so if they die in their slavery, the owners just find more......
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There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.
You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.
There are not many of them left any more. It's been nearly 70 years since the end of the war.
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btw, I just read what you said above and completely agree that life for kids in inner city Chicago is dire, and they should never, EVER be 'running the gauntlet' for their lives.
And it is totally the fault of leftist policies and the racism of the welfare state.
So do we just disagree on the one point that it is not as bad as slavery (and you think it is?)
As I said, I haven't read your perspective, and I respect you, so if you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.
I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
:amen:
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
Bundy is ignorant, not necessarily evil.
He's out of touch with the world outside the confines of his ranch.
One does not need to be sophisticated or enlightened to understand that suggesting that "Negroes" may have been better off as slaves because it taught them a trade and gave them a more stable family life, is a sign of massive ignorance and racial condescension.
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
First, there has not been one bit of either 'hysteria,' nor 'hyperbole' in any of my words.
Second, I understand, and have said before, that what is happening in black communities now is horrid, and it is the result of depravity and leftist politics and racism.
Third, I wasn't 'explaining' slavery to you. I was explaining what it was to anyone who didn't think it was such a big deal (look back, alice. You'll see it).
Fourth, I don't suffer from any delusions about what the left will do with this mess. I don't suffer from any form of white guilt (my ancestors were Vikings. They enslaved and killed everyone. :smokin:), but Bundy is the one whose words are bizarre and inexcusable, and I don't see accusing those of us who think that as being patsies of the left is helpful either.
Lastly, I repeat what I have said before. Racism exists, on both sides. I believe it is mostly on the left, but I believe that blaming the left for Bundy's lousy words is evading the issue. I believe that we need to stand up against racism (the real thing) anywhere it exists.
I don't believe in defending the indefensible.
I never will.
(And I KNOW who the enemy is. But having spirited discussions where we disagree is not acceding anything to them).
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There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.
You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.
BTW, there is a subtle yet very massive distinction between being a slave and being a Jew in a Nazi death camp, and to a degree, equating one to the other is demeaning to those Jews who spent time or died in Nazi death camps.
Slaves were property, valuable property to their owners.
Nazis didn't see a Jew's life as having even the most minimal value.
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Black people still are slaves, just a different kind of chains. Just like in the old days when their own tribal leaders sold them out, today their own people sell them out for personal gain. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Wright, et al are nothing more than modern day slave traders.
Oh sure, there's the 5% that break their bonds, the Carsons, Thomas's, Wests, but they are few in numbers. For the most part, black people are happy to remain on the plantation.
Bundy is right, he just said it poorly.
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There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.
I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.
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So he didn't phrase it well, but what did he say that conservatives object to?
Gee, hmm, ummm ... how about when he inferred that blacks had it better as slaves?
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The shackles of the mind can be just as powerful as REAL shackles. How many blacks still think they are oppressed
How many blacks today are owned as property, and treated as sub-human?
I must be going crazy, because I can't see anyway in which Bundy's beliefs on this can be defended. If he wanted to make a nuanced comment, and didn't mean what he said quite literally, he's had plenty of time to "clarify" on how he "misspoke."
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There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.
I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.
But we can believe that the mainstream media would misrepresent what he said, can't we?
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There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.
I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.
Exactly.
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There was some of that no doubt but to say that EVERY slave owner engaged in such is an outright untruth!
Wow.
I'm sure some pedophiles don't all physically abuse their prey/property, too!
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Unfortunately it was also LEGAL!
Men having sex with other men is also legal. Doesn't mean I'm going to partake in it.
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Do you think the inner city blacks have freedom and opportunity?
Yes. I went to college with, and have since worked with some very intelligent people who made their way out of the inner city.
Stop trying to justify the Bundy clown's racist views. It does the right no good to be defending this guy. I don't get it.
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off!
Wait, so you're equating life as another person's property to there people some poor blacks in cities?
Are you for real on this? It's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on the internet.
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BTW, there is a subtle yet very massive distinction between being a slave and being a Jew in a Nazi death camp, and to a degree, equating one to the other is demeaning to those Jews who spent time or died in Nazi death camps.
Slaves were property, valuable property to their owners.
Nazis didn't see a Jew's life as having even the most minimal value.
Very well stated. One of the few sane things I've read in this thread.
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Black people still are slaves, just a different kind of chains. Just like in the old days when their own tribal leaders sold them out, today their own people sell them out for personal gain. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Wright, et al are nothing more than modern day slave traders.
Oh sure, there's the 5% that break their bonds, the Carsons, Thomas's, Wests, but they are few in numbers. For the most part, black people are happy to remain on the plantation.
Bundy is right, he just said it poorly.
In 17 years of post-collegiate professional jobs, I've had black managers, black VPs, worked on deals with black entrepreneurs, and not once did I note any chains on their bodies.
The liberal position is that conservatives want to put blacks back into slavery.
We now have conservatives defending some outlaw's view that blacks may have been better off without slavery.
My God, our side is so dumb on this stuff.
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The right needs to run away from this buffoon ASAP. I understand the frustration with the BLM, but there must be another rancher out there who isn't a dumber and more racist version of Jed Clampett that people could rally around.
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The chains aren't literal so perhaps that's why you didn't see them.
I wish blacks would break away from the dem plantation (another figure of speech, not a literal plantation) but they seem to be happy there. We witness their bondage (not real bondage) every 2 years.
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Yes. I went to college with, and have since worked with some very intelligent people who made their way out of the inner city.
Stop trying to justify the Bundy clown's racist views. It does the right no good to be defending this guy. I don't get it.
Anecdotes aren't very informative. There certainly are some inner city blacks who have succeeded - mostly the ones who were given the opportunity to get an education outside of the public schools. And there were black slave owners in colonial days, too. In fact, there still are a lot of those in Africa. There are also many slaves today in Asian countries like India.
It's time to get over the white American guilt from colonial days and work on today's problems. Getting all exercised over comments from a not too eloquent rancher is not a help. Particularly when those comments have been edited by the liberal press with the major intention of stirring up a firestorm. (I do so hate it when they win a battle like this so easily.)
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The chains aren't literal so perhaps that's why you didn't see them.
I wish blacks would break away from the dem plantation (another figure of speech, not a literal plantation) but they seem to be happy there. We witness their bondage (not real bondage) every 2 years.
Being in that allegorical plantation is a matter of their free choice, as opposed to real slaves being in real plantations.
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Anecdotes aren't very informative. There certainly are some inner city blacks who have succeeded - mostly the ones who were given the opportunity to get an education outside of the public schools. And there were black slave owners in colonial days, too. In fact, there still are a lot of those in Africa. There are also many slaves today in Asian countries like India.
It's time to get over the white American guilt from colonial days and work on today's problems. Getting all exercised over comments from a not too eloquent rancher is not a help. Particularly when those comments have been edited by the liberal press with the major intention of stirring up a firestorm. (I do so hate it when they win a battle like this so easily.)
I've seen both versions of the video.
The offensive comments remain offensive even in the full context of Bundy's remarks.
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BTW, there is a subtle yet very massive distinction between being a slave and being a Jew in a Nazi death camp, and to a degree, equating one to the other is demeaning to those Jews who spent time or died in Nazi death camps.
Slaves were property, valuable property to their owners.
Nazis didn't see a Jew's life as having even the most minimal value.
A very astute and absolutely true observation.
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Anecdotes aren't very informative. There certainly are some inner city blacks who have succeeded - mostly the ones who were given the opportunity to get an education outside of the public schools. And there were black slave owners in colonial days, too. In fact, there still are a lot of those in Africa. There are also many slaves today in Asian countries like India.
It's time to get over the white American guilt from colonial days and work on today's problems. Getting all exercised over comments from a not too eloquent rancher is not a help. Particularly when those comments have been edited by the liberal press with the major intention of stirring up a firestorm. (I do so hate it when they win a battle like this so easily.)
First of all, I'll need some data to back up your claim. My "anecdote" over 17 years is that pretty much every black person I've worked for, has worked for me, or was my peer, came from public schools and universities. I'd like you to prove that most blacks who succeed went to private school, be it K-12 or post-HS.
Secondly, if they were still slaves, they wouldn't be an anecdote, because they'd be somebody's property, and not a VP of Marketing for a Fortune 500 company.
I don't have white guilt, either. I do find equating slavery to the modern black's current situation, or even saying it is worse for them now because some are on welfare, to be so out of step with what I consider a rational comparison that I can't wrap my head around how those making that argument can't see how ridiculous it is.
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Regardless of Bundy's idiotic (my thought) comments, I don't understand why people would need to rally around him for this. Let the guy have his un-PC views, and just leave him be. Trying to justify his comments is a losing endeavor, politically.
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Wow!
This was a great thread to come back and follow....glad it wasn't locked! (was shooting 9-ball)
Good job people! :beer:
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Wow!
This was a great thread to come back and follow....glad it wasn't locked! (was shooting 9-ball)
Good job people! :beer:
I couldn't agree more! :beer:
Maybe one day I'll come up there and teach you how to play that game. :bolt:
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Even though I believe in Mr. Bundy, he needs to get a media representative that will speak for Mr. Bundy. He really stepped in it this time.
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Even though I believe in Mr. Bundy, he needs to get a media representative that will speak for Mr. Bundy. He really stepped in it this time.
There is no coming back from this, no matter what sort of brilliant point some seem to think he was making. You're not going to convince a majority of the public that blacks are worse off now than when they were enslaved. Best for the far right to just drop this guy and distance themselves from him. Move on and find a rancher who is anti-BLM, but actually plays by the rules and doesn't talk like Archie Bunker's cowboy brother.
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Even though I believe in Mr. Bundy, he needs to get a media representative that will speak for Mr. Bundy. He really stepped in it this time.
Conservatives should never never speak to the media **nononono*
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
:hands:
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I couldn't agree more! :beer:
Maybe one day I'll come up there and teach you how to play that game. :bolt:
:beer: LOL!
Been playing most of my adult life and you could probably STILL kick my a$$. :shrug:
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Being in that allegorical plantation is a matter of their free choice, as opposed to real slaves being in real plantations.
Absolutely! No question about that.
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Wow!
This was a great thread to come back and follow....glad it wasn't locked! (was shooting 9-ball)
Good job people! :beer:
I find it fascinating that this is an issue in which I disagree with the good people I usually agree with, and agree with the people I have more disagreements with (though I agree with, and disagree with every single person on some issues). Also, I find it fascinating that I agree with Glenn Beck (with whom I frequently disagree) on this, and think we should run as far away from this guy, Bundy, as we can.
(And I don't think those who agree with me here are particular fans of Beck, eh? :dx1:)
I ADORE the free and spirited exchange of ideas, and I HATE "groupthink."
There has been NO "hysteria" nor "hyperbole" on this thread. It has been emotionally charged, but never out of control (not even close, actually).
We all need to do serious thinking about racism. The left has destroyed the very meaning of the word. They have controlled the message, maligned every single one of us on this forum, lied, distorted, and filled the conversation with hate-filled lies about us.
That does not, however, mean that we should not address the real problems with race relations in this country, and work for reconciliation. That does not mean that we shouldn't address the mess that the left has created among the black community with the 'slavery' of the welfare state. Many blacks have chosen to stay dependent, many black women have chosen to have multiple children out of wedlock to get more money. Many black men have chosen to abandon their families.
These are not unsolvable issues, but they are issues that require moral, conservative, small-government leadership, and that require the Church to be the Church, and Christians to behave as we are commanded to behave (I indict myself in that accusation).
There are solutions. But that doesn't mean that we should not have the discussion. The left tries to silence dissent. We should not.
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There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.
You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.
The fact of the matter is that America takes the brunt of the ills of slavery even though we abolished it 150 years ago, while several countries maintain that despicable practice, today. It's interesting to note that the majority of slave holding countries are also Muzzie governed countries.
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Yes, racism has lost its meaning and impact. It has become a joke when the word is used even though there are still cases of real racism. Unfortunately, the source of most racism nowadays comes from blacks and it's not only opportunity based, it's violent.
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There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.
I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.
The people that defend Mr. Bundy are likely the very same people that may wind up defending you. You may want to think about that.
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But we can believe that the mainstream media would misrepresent what he said, can't we?
You very salient point seems to be lost on certain people, doesn't it?
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Surely you are not aiming that at me??
Just saw this post.
The answer: NO, my friend! :patriot:
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I find it fascinating that this is an issue in which I disagree with the good people I usually agree with, and agree with the people I have more disagreements with (though I agree with, and disagree with every single person on some issues). Also, I find it fascinating that I agree with Glenn Beck (with whom I frequently disagree) on this, and think we should run as far away from this guy, Bundy, as we can.
(And I don't think those who agree with me here are particular fans of Beck, eh? :dx1:)
I ADORE the free and spirited exchange of ideas, and I HATE "groupthink."
There has been NO "hysteria" nor "hyperbole" on this thread. It has been emotionally charged, but never out of control (not even close, actually).
We all need to do serious thinking about racism. The left has destroyed the very meaning of the word. They have controlled the message, maligned every single one of us on this forum, lied, distorted, and filled the conversation with hate-filled lies about us.
That does not, however, mean that we should not address the real problems with race relations in this country, and work for reconciliation. That does not mean that we shouldn't address the mess that the left has created among the black community with the 'slavery' of the welfare state. Many blacks have chosen to stay dependent, many black women have chosen to have multiple children out of wedlock to get more money. Many black men have chosen to abandon their families.
These are not unsolvable issues, but they are issues that require moral, conservative, small-government leadership, and that require the Church to be the Church, and Christians to behave as we are commanded to behave (I indict myself in that accusation).
There are solutions. But that doesn't mean that we should not have the discussion. The left tries to silence dissent. We should not.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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The fact of the matter is that America takes the brunt of the ills of slavery even though we abolished it 150 years ago, while several countries maintain that despicable practice, today. It's interesting to note that the majority of slave holding countries are also Muzzie governed countries.
First let me say that I enjoy reading your contributions to the forum, Howie66.
But....I would like to point out that typing "Muzzie" erases virtually all of the salient point your were making.
It's why Conservatives are in the 'predicament' we're in.
Not singling you out, Howie.....just making an overall observation. :patriot:
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The fact of the matter is that America takes the brunt of the ills of slavery even though we abolished it 150 years ago, while several countries maintain that despicable practice, today. It's interesting to note that the majority of slave holding countries are also Muzzie governed countries.
This is a salient point about current slavery. Most of the African slavery now is black Africans owned by Muslim, lighter skinned Africans.
However, the greatest number of slaves (IIRC) are in southern India where neither group is Muslim. There is also slavery on the coffee plantations in Brazil, not involving Muslims.
btw, I would urge you to be careful as to what you assume is being 'lost' on 'certain people.' I doubt there is a single person involved in this discussion who is not fully aware the MSM does to conservatives. The people on this forum are well educated, especially in regard to the diabolical nature of the left.
Accusing us of being patsies of the left and falling for their ploys is a spurious argument, Howie.
We just think Bundy said an incredibly stupid and wrong thing.
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I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off! Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing.
Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country? You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation".
I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means. That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang.
The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016. The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission. Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!
Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic. The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL! This is the enemy!
VERY Well said!!
:thumbsup:
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First let me say that I enjoy reading your contributions to the forum, Howie66.
But....I would like to point out that typing "Muzzie" erases virtually all of the salient point your were making.
It's why Conservatives are in the 'predicament' we're in.
Not singling you out, Howie.....just making an overall observation. :patriot:
As long as I am referred to as an Infidel, I will use the term of endearment, Muzzie. :beer:
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The people that defend Mr. Bundy are likely the very same people that may wind up defending you. You may want to think about that.
Excellent point, Howie!! :patriot:
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This is a salient point about current slavery. Most of the African slavery now is black Africans owned by Muslim, lighter skinned Africans.
However, the greatest number of slaves (IIRC) are in southern India where neither group is Muslim. There is also slavery on the coffee plantations in Brazil, not involving Muslims.
btw, I would urge you to be careful as to what you assume is being 'lost' on 'certain people.' I doubt there is a single person involved in this discussion who is not fully aware the MSM does to conservatives. The people on this forum are well educated, especially in regard to the diabolical nature of the left.
Accusing us of being patsies of the left and falling for their ploys is a spurious argument, Howie.
We just think Bundy said an incredibly stupid and wrong thing.
In the overall scheme of matters, what Mr. Bundy said is totally irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with anything. His opinion is just that. His opinion.
This whole affair is about the FACT that we have a government that has, in effect, declared war on the Citizens of the United States, our Constitutional freedoms and liberties.
That is what counts here. Everything else is just distractions.
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As long as I am referred to as an Infidel, I will use the term of endearment, Muzzie. :beer:
:amen:
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:beer: LOL!
Been playing most of my adult life and you could probably STILL kick my a$$. :shrug:
Actually I haven't played in years but once had a shelf full of trophies I won at it. Might be interesting to see if it would come back to me!
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In the overall scheme of matters, what Mr. Bundy said is totally irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with anything. His opinion is just that. His opinion.
This whole affair is about the FACT that we have a government that has, in effect, declared war on the Citizens of the United States, our Constitutional freedoms and liberties.
That is what counts here. Everything else is just distractions.
A distraction that Mr. Bundy brought on himself.
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In the overall scheme of matters, what Mr. Bundy said is totally irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with anything. His opinion is just that. His opinion.
This whole affair is about the FACT that we have a government that has, in effect, declared war on the Citizens of the United States, our Constitutional freedoms and liberties.
That is what counts here. Everything else is just distractions.
:amen: :amen: and :amen: :beer:
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Actually I haven't played in years but once had a shelf full of trophies I won at it. Might be interesting to see if it would come back to me!
Next time you visit the Washington, DC region, let me know via PM.....would love to whack a few with you!
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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-mlk-rosa-parks-offended (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cliven-bundy-mlk-rosa-parks-offended)
Bundy: If People Are Offended By Me, Then MLK 'Didn't Do His Job'
CATHERINE THOMPSON – APRIL 25, 2014, 9:18 AM EDT
Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy said Friday that he doesn't believe his remarks on blacks and slavery were "offensive," and if other people take them that way, it means civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr. "didn't do his job."
Bundy was pressed by CNN's Chris Cuomo to acknowledge that he offended people when he mused about whether blacks were "better off as slaves, picking cotton" than "under government subsidy," which was first highlighted by the New York Times.
In response, Bundy again slammed the media for portraying him as a racist while stressing that he supports civil rights. He invoked the example of Rosa Parks, saying "I want her to be able to sit anywhere in the bus and I want to be able to sit by her anywhere in that bus."
"Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness … but you know when you talk about prejudice, we're talking about not being able to exercise what we think and are feeling," Bundy eventually conceded.
"If I say 'negro' or 'black boy' or 'slave,' I'm not -- if those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive then Martin Luther King didn't do his job," he added.
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A distraction that Mr. Bundy brought on himself.
That's true! No doubt about it but Mr. Bundy is also just a hard working American not trained in media relations who was trying to say something very profound and screwed it up badly.
He should just shut the heck up at this point.
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Next time you visit the Washington, DC region, let me know via PM.....would love to whack a few with you!
Thanks!
Will do! Count on it!
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That's true! No doubt about it but Mr. Bundy is also just a hard working American not trained in media relations who was trying to say something very profound and screwed it up badly.
He should just shut the heck up at this point.
Actually....no he shouldn't. Let him explain himself.
That is, unless we want to once again as Conservatives....tuck our tails and run like hell.
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Actually....no he shouldn't. Let him explain himself.
That is, unless we want to once again as Conservatives....tuck our tails and run like hell.
Upon reflection, I concur.
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One more point, which was alluded to on another thread.....
Many of us have had a great deal of pride in the fact that the abolition movement began among Christians and was continued here in this country by the newly formed Republican party; that it was Republicans who fought Jim Crow, who integrated Washington (only to have it re-segregated by Woodrow Wilson), who, with only a few exceptions, fought the early Progressive movement that was racist to the point of ethnic cleansing (an idea plucked up by the Nazis), who have fought against Planned Parenthood and abortion, who supported Civil Rights while the Democrats fought it, who have opposed the racism of Affirmative Action, and the hideous welfare state and what it has done to the black family.
Why should we now..........with our history.......... not stand up against the careless, insensitive words of Cliven Bundy?
Why should we be accused of falling into a leftist trap, or being naïve or "lost" just because we are standing for the principles we have stood for for centuries?
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A distraction that Mr. Bundy brought on himself.
Negative, that.
This is a distraction that was manufactured by the propaganda arm of the Obama Regime.
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Upon reflection, I concur.
What I think maybe should happen, upon reflection, is that it should be CONSERVATIVE leaders who question his words, and have him explain what he meant, if he indeed did not mean what he actually said he meant.
We should be leading the charge in having him clarify (I realize that this may seem like a change from my "shut up" way up thread, which I still think he should do when charged by the MSM), what seem to be bizarre and ignorant words.
If WE ask the questions (without being attacked by our peers), then perhaps a more satisfactory response and clarification will occur.
Then, if upon examination, he reveals real racism, we should not defend him.
I truly believe he was put on a pedestal very quickly by some in the conservative community, before there was ample 'vetting' as it were, of his motives and character. He was chosen by some to represent the fight (we all agree with) against the government, and elevated to a point beyond which he deserved to be placed.
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Negative, that.
This is a distraction that was manufactured by the propaganda arm of the Obama Regime.
The unfortunate words were Bundy's.
In many cases, perhaps most, I agree. But not this one.
He stepped in it. No one made him do it. The propaganda arm of the Regime just ran with it.
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What I think maybe should happen, upon reflection, is that it should be CONSERVATIVE leaders who question his words, and have him explain what he meant, if he indeed did not mean what he actually said he meant.
We should be leading the charge in having him clarify (I realize that this may seem like a change from my "shut up" way up thread, which I still think he should do when charged by the MSM), what seem to be bizarre and ignorant words.
If WE ask the questions (without being attacked by our peers), then perhaps a more satisfactory response and clarification will occur.
Then, if upon examination, he reveals real racism, we should not defend him.
I truly believe he was put on a pedestal very quickly by some in the conservative community, before there was ample 'vetting' as it were, of his motives and character. He was chosen by some to represent the fight (we all agree with) against the government, and elevated to a point beyond which he deserved to be placed.
Excellent! :beer:
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How did this subject even come up that gave Bundy the opportunity to say all this...my guess is and I am sure others agree as well that this was a major set up by Reid/NYT's...people that knew Bundy probably knew his views on this subject and when a nosy NYT's reporter comes to town and starts snooping around and starts asking all the locals about Bundy which he in turn asks Bundy...BINGO...he has a story.....and Bundy a poor local yokel who has no idea what hit him...
Also remember Reid's quote from just ten days ago when the Feds moved off...*Harry Reid: ‘It’s NOT Over’*
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http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/24/reid-once-under-fire-for-saying-negro-condemns-rancher-for-comments/ (http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/24/reid-once-under-fire-for-saying-negro-condemns-rancher-for-comments/)
Reid — once under fire for saying ‘negro’ — condemns rancher for comments
Posted By Alex Pappas On 4:44 PM 04/24/2014 In | No Comments
Democratic Senate majority leader Harry Reid on Thursday strongly condemned Cliven Bundy, a constituent and rancher in Nevada, for his widely-reported offensive comments about African-Americans.
“Today, Bundy revealed himself to be a hateful racist,” Reid said in a statement provided by his office.
The New York Times reported on a recent rant by Bundy, who mused about what he referred to as “the Negro.” He has been in the news recently over his clash with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees.
Discussing a public-housing project in Nevada, Bundy said of black people: “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
A number of politicians, including Reid, criticized Bundy for his comments.
“To advance his extreme, hateful views, Bundy has endangered the lives of innocent women and children,” the Nevada senator said.
Reid has found himself in a media firestorm over racial comments before. In 2010, the book “Game Change” reported that Reid had praised President Obama, before he was elected, as someone who is “light skinned” and has “no Negro dialect.”
Following an uproar over those comments, Reid apologized.
“I deeply regret using such a poor choice of words,” Reid said then. “I sincerely apologize for offending any and all Americans, especially African-Americans for my improper comments.”
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How did this subject even come up that gave Bundy the opportunity to say all this...my guess is and I am sure others agree as well that this was a major set up by Reid/NYT's...people that knew Bundy probably knew his views on this subject and when a nosy NYT's reporter comes to town and starts snooping around and starts asking all the locals about Bundy which he in turn asks Bundy...BINGO...he has a story.....and Bundy a poor local yokel who has no idea what hit him...
Also remember Reid's quote from just ten days ago when the Feds moved off...*Harry Reid: ‘It’s NOT Over’*
Spot on my dear!
I have NO doubt that you are EXACTLY right!
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
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Actually....no he shouldn't. Let him explain himself.
That is, unless we want to once again as Conservatives....tuck our tails and run like hell.
I think that Bundy explained his ideas well. He wonders whether the "Negro" was better off as slaves than in their current condition. He bases his opinion on the Negroes he witnessed sitting on porches somewhere in Nevada at one time or another when he traveled outside the immediate vicinity of his cattle. He observed that slavehood provided the Negro with skill sets (picking cotton, if I recall his remarks correctly) and more stable family unit.
That of course fails to account for all the other Negroes in the United States who have, since the end of the War of Northern Aggression and the Fall of the House of O'Hara, managed to make some headway in our society, like Oprah, the POTUS and Nick Fury (I'm a little conflicted on Fury... I have CLEAR memories of him as a white guy). I am certain that Oprah would object to the idea that she would be better off as a slave than she is as a billionaire.
Bundy also seems to have some distinctly liberal (or libertarian) ideas on illegal immigration.
All kidding aside, his ideas on the subject are offensive. He is entitled to them, but likewise I am entitled to distance myself in any way possible from him, and from his ideas, lest I want to be colored by the same brush he's being painted with.
One last thing...
Bundy basing his opinion on the Negro on what he saw where he went, would have me (if I lacked intelligence to the same degree that Bundy lacks it) base my opinion on whether or not Americans would be better off as serfs to the British Crown on what I saw in my travels through the deepest recesses of West Virginia.
That would be deeply, deeply injurious to the rest of us whose family trees do not resemble the cue stick you were using last night.
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What I think maybe should happen, upon reflection, is that it should be CONSERVATIVE leaders who question his words, and have him explain what he meant, if he indeed did not mean what he actually said he meant.
We should be leading the charge in having him clarify (I realize that this may seem like a change from my "shut up" way up thread, which I still think he should do when charged by the MSM), what seem to be bizarre and ignorant words.
If WE ask the questions (without being attacked by our peers), then perhaps a more satisfactory response and clarification will occur.
Then, if upon examination, he reveals real racism, we should not defend him.
I truly believe he was put on a pedestal very quickly by some in the conservative community, before there was ample 'vetting' as it were, of his motives and character. He was chosen by some to represent the fight (we all agree with) against the government, and elevated to a point beyond which he deserved to be placed.
An excellent suggestion! I hope it is heard and acted upon!
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Joe Walsh Defends Cliven Bundy's "Racism"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ukphPw_cDiE
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I have taken a breather for the past few weeks. I'm still not smoking and I have also FIRED Government Motors (sold my Chevy Silverado after the second door handle fell off while opening the door) and bought a nice shiny Ford Taurus Limited!
WOO HOO!
The BLM does NOT want to come to TEXAS with their cheap civilian sh*t, is all that I will say on this matter.
MOLON LABE.
Congratulations on the non-smoking! We used to be Chevy people too - still drive our old Tahoe - but we'll never buy another GM product.
I like your Texas attitude, I think the BLM issue has - unfortunately - been hijacked by "racism", exactly according to plan! It's good to see you back, we all have to take a breather sometimes. Best of luck to you!
:patriot:
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
I know this story seems to have monopolized the whole forum but I have spent the whole morning posting news and articles in all the categories....
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
Would you please be kind enough to point out an instance of anyone beating anyone about the face and neck? I've been on this thread for a while now and all I have encountered is a very respectful discourse among friends who have differing opinions about something!
And BTW, it has produced some very useful results IMHO!
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The unfortunate words were Bundy's.
In many cases, perhaps most, I agree. But not this one.
He stepped in it. No one made him do it. The propaganda arm of the Regime just ran with it.
So the selective editing was done by Mr. Bundy? Really?
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Negative, that.
This is a distraction that was manufactured by the propaganda arm of the Obama Regime.
A certain Senate Majority was having his ass kicked in the press because of his son, the Chinese and whoever else was in on the thing. Next thing ya know this tape seems to come out of nowhere like a BRIGHT SHINY OBJECT!
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
I'm with you, brother. The distraction from the real issue is getting very stale.
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A certain Senate Majority was having his ass kicked in the press because of his son, the Chinese and whoever else was in on the thing. Next thing ya know this tape seems to come out of nowhere like a BRIGHT SHINY OBJECT!
Funny how this crap seems to always happen, eh?
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Congratulations on the non-smoking! We used to be Chevy people too - still drive our old Tahoe - but we'll never buy another GM product.
I like your Texas attitude, I think the BLM issue has - unfortunately - been hijacked by "racism", exactly according to plan! It's good to see you back, we all have to take a breather sometimes. Best of luck to you!
:patriot:
Thanks! Monday will be 6 weeks since I quit!
Harry Reid needed a distraction and he got it. Anybody that can't see that is just plain blind.
My family almost had a collective coronary when I made the decision to sell the Silverado and buy a Ford! It was funny as hell!
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A certain Senate Majority was having his ass kicked in the press because of his son, the Chinese and whoever else was in on the thing. Next thing ya know this tape seems to come out of nowhere like a BRIGHT SHINY OBJECT!
The Reid/Chinese story was fully debunked by none other than the Breitbart news site.
There is NO Chinese/Reid connection.
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
Hmmmmm...............no 'froth' here.
Just finishing up a very healthy, necessary, intelligent, well thought out discussion (from both sides, for the most part, IMO).
Sorry you have problems with such things.......
On with my day and other important things. :seeya:
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The Reid/Chinese story was fully debunked by none other than the Breitbart news site.
There is NO Chinese/Reid connection.
Yes, correct but it made up a lot of speculation on prior while the Bundy Affair was going on.
The slavery angle can be broken into at least 3 parts though:
1. Is the Federal plantation better than the pre Civil War?
2. Is it better off to be born black in America or aborted before given a chance?
3. Why do these stories seem to come up so serendipitously?
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Yes, correct but it made up a lot of speculation on prior while the Bundy Affair was going on.
The slavery angle can be broken into at least 3 parts though:
1. Is the Federal plantation better than the pre Civil War?
2. Is it better off to be born black in America or aborted before given a chance?
3. Why do these stories seem to come up so serendipitously?
I rate set-up myself, which is the only reason I still pay attention to what would otherwise be a none story. Convenient how the racism bit came up and completely distracted the media (and even us) from the huge Federal over-reaction.
Someone ain't paid their bills, you send a Sheriffs Deputy out to serve papers. You don't send a damned army.
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If this is what is going to occupy everyone's conversation again today, then I am checking out until the froth diminishes. If it were not for websites like this one who insist on beating a dead horse, this moron would get no attention at all.
See you all later when you have something to do besides beat one another around the face and neck.
After attempting to crash the thread and call for its demise, today, you're crashing it again to tell us you're not going to participate.
I see............ :seeya:
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I think that Bundy explained his ideas well. He wonders whether the "Negro" was better off as slaves than in their current condition. He bases his opinion on the Negroes he witnessed sitting on porches somewhere in Nevada at one time or another when he traveled outside the immediate vicinity of his cattle. He observed that slavehood provided the Negro with skill sets (picking cotton, if I recall his remarks correctly) and more stable family unit.
That of course fails to account for all the other Negroes in the United States who have, since the end of the War of Northern Aggression and the Fall of the House of O'Hara, managed to make some headway in our society, like Oprah, the POTUS and Nick Fury (I'm a little conflicted on Fury... I have CLEAR memories of him as a white guy). I am certain that Oprah would object to the idea that she would be better off as a slave than she is as a billionaire.
Bundy also seems to have some distinctly liberal (or libertarian) ideas on illegal immigration.
All kidding aside, his ideas on the subject are offensive. He is entitled to them, but likewise I am entitled to distance myself in any way possible from him, and from his ideas, lest I want to be colored by the same brush he's being painted with.
One last thing...
Bundy basing his opinion on the Negro on what he saw where he went, would have me (if I lacked intelligence to the same degree that Bundy lacks it) base my opinion on whether or not Americans would be better off as serfs to the British Crown on what I saw in my travels through the deepest recesses of West Virginia.
That would be deeply, deeply injurious to the rest of us whose family trees do not resemble the cue stick you were using last night.
All fair point, Luis. Thanks.
I just thought that in an one-on-one interview....say, with Greta VanSustern, that he'd be able to further explain his POV.
At least, she'd not cut him or selectively edit the piece.
Like I said, this may be the conduit we've all been seeking in which to bring the African-American's current plight into the 24/7 news cycle. Let's get people talking about the Democrats' failure in dealing with the topic of race.
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Would you please be kind enough to point out an instance of anyone beating anyone about the face and neck? I've been on this thread for a while now and all I have encountered is a very respectful discourse among friends who have differing opinions about something!
And BTW, it has produced some very useful results IMHO!
It certainly has, Bigun!
And look who's come out of lurk mode to join in.....'faces' we haven't heard from in a dog's age.
IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites. We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation.
Love this place! :beer:
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Isn't it also a convenient this came out so near as the USSC ruling on Michigan affirmative action? It seemed like such a simple thing, like Stephanapoulos's comment about birth control out of the blue during the Republican debate.
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Isn't it also a convenient this came out so near as the USSC ruling on Michigan affirmative action? It seemed like such a simple thing, like Stephanapoulos's comment about birth control out of the blue during the Republican debate.
If we didn't know any better, we'd think they were trying to create a racial war. [/s]
...tis going to be a Long Hot Summer.
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Yes, correct but it made up a lot of speculation on prior while the Bundy Affair was going on.
The slavery angle can be broken into at least 3 parts though:
1. Is the Federal plantation better than the pre Civil War?
2. Is it better off to be born black in America or aborted before given a chance?
3. Why do these stories seem to come up so serendipitously?
Answer one question honestly.
Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal slave over a rhetorical one?
(Edited for spelling and punctuation errors... we really NEED a smart phone app)
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It certainly has, Bigun!
And look who's come out of lurk mode to join in.....'faces' we haven't heard from in a dog's age.
IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites. We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation.
Love this place! :beer:
Me too. :beer:
It's respect for each other. Sure, things can get a wee bit heated at times, but we all seem to get that there is a real live person on the other end of the message. Kind of unusual on forums.
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Bump
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Answer one question honestly.
Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal Slavs over a rhetorical one
Under none really. I don't have a slave mentality. Is it because I'm an American and know none other. It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure. Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like. None will put in prison. Taxes, federal, state, local. Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into. If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?
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Under none really. I don't have a slave mentality. Is it because I'm an American and know none other. It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure. Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like. None will put in prison. Taxes, federal, state, local. Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into. If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free."
Johann Goethe
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"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free."
Johann Goethe
Yup.
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So, ya think "they" keep a file somewhere that says, IF this happens_______, release this_______?
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Under none really. I don't have a slave mentality. Is it because I'm an American and know none other. It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure. Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like. None will put in prison. Taxes, federal, state, local. Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into. If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?
Exactly, and your response is what exposes the abject ignorance of Bundy's notion that the "Negro" may have been better off as slaves. No one in their right mind would ever make that statement about themselves, and the fact that he made it about the "Negro" is what exposes his racism. I don't see Bundy as a virulent racist espousing lynchings and a return to the days of Dixie long gone, but the fact that he can even hold that idea tells me that he sees the "Negro" as a whole, as a member of an inferior race that can't handle the burden of liberty.
Enduring laws that we find annoying or overtly burdensome does not translate into even rhetorical slavery. Those laws that we find necessary and proper are probably seen as annoying and overtly burdensome by others, that's the nature of our system of government... we all agree to live under a set of laws, even if we all do not agree with all the laws that we have to live under, so long as the Constitutional process was followed to get to those laws.
If we believe that the Constitutional process has not been properly followed, we have the right to take those laws to the Courts. That's why there are literally dozens of suits against the ACA running their way through the court system.
Here is the crux of your response:
If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?
Therein lies the heart of what is so wrong about Bundy's remarks.
If you were born in China, Cuba or Iran, your ability to decide to extricate yourself from the sort of life that Bundy described, or even leave the country altogether and go seek better living conditions elsewhere range from highly restricted to non-existent.
You're only a slave when you lack the ability to make decisions on your own over what course you wish your life to take.
The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have, and THAT is why it is ridiculous to say that they may be better off as slaves.
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Yup.
Who is forcefully stopping anyone from getting up and changing the circumstances of their lives?
You are all making the liberal argument that blacks are so victimized by societal externalities that they cannot help themselves out of the gutters that they live in.
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The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have...
And many more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!
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And many more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!
So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
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And many more would IF we had a government working to help them get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!
I think that was the whole point of Bundy's statement. The federal government has grown too big and too intrusive. It doesn't help people, it keeps them down.
I don't think he woke up one morning and decided "today I'll make a racist comment about Negroes".
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So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
Absolutely not! MUCH less government action is in order in fact!
The reason they stay on the plantation is that WE allow the government to give them much more than they could possibly earn with a real job!
THAT should not ever happen in a free country!
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I think that was the whole point of Bundy's statement. The federal government has grown too big and too intrusive. It doesn't help people, it keeps them down.
I don't think he woke up one morning and decided "today I'll make a racist comment about Negroes".
I absolutely agree that is what he was TRYING to convey but he did a very poor job of it!
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It certainly has, Bigun!
And look who's come out of lurk mode to join in.....'faces' we haven't heard from in a dog's age.
IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites. We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation.
Love this place! :beer:
Me too! It's downright refreshing!
btw, I heard a clip of Bundy on Glenn Beck this morning talking about Rosa Parks and MLK....
Maybe it's best not to have him interviewed anywhere. He's not exactly able to explain himself clearly.
Just sayin'...........
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Exactly, and your response is what exposes the abject ignorance of Bundy's notion that the "Negro" may have been better off as slaves. No one in their right mind would ever make that statement about themselves, and the fact that he made it about the "Negro" is what exposes his racism. I don't see Bundy as a virulent racist espousing lynchings and a return to the days of Dixie long gone, but the fact that he can even hold that idea tells me that he sees the "Negro" as a whole, as a member of an inferior race that can't handle the burden of liberty.
Enduring laws that we find annoying or overtly burdensome does not translate into even rhetorical slavery. Those laws that we find necessary and proper are probably seen as annoying and overtly burdensome by others, that's the nature of our system of government... we all agree to live under a set of laws, even if we all do not agree with all the laws that we have to live under, so long as the Constitutional process was followed to get to those laws.
If we believe that the Constitutional process has not been properly followed, we have the right to take those laws to the Courts. That's why there are literally dozens of suits against the ACA running their way through the court system.
Here is the crux of your response:
Therein lies the heart of what is so wrong about Bundy's remarks.
If you were born in China, Cuba or Iran, your ability to decide to extricate yourself from the sort of life that Bundy described, or even leave the country altogether and go seek better living conditions elsewhere range from highly restricted to non-existent.
You're only a slave when you lack the ability to make decisions on your own over what course you wish your life to take.
The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have, and THAT is why it is ridiculous to say that they may be better off as slaves.
My point regarding China and Iran, to a lesser degree Cuba, is people may think the systems there are just fine. Perhaps there is no desire, among most people is born, live, die. Why does everybody need to be happy. I don't know. I was born and raised here.
Think about why most people come here:
Religious persecution, political persecution, financial freedom, personal freedom.
I'm third generation American. Still have family in various European countries, Australia and South America. A variety of professions. Not all of them felt the need to leave. Some of them seem to be doing very well. Maybe just the malcontents felt the need to get out of Dodge.
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Me too! It's downright refreshing!
btw, I heard a clip of Bundy on Glenn Beck this morning talking about Rosa Parks and MLK....
Maybe it's best not to have him interviewed anywhere. He's not exactly able to explain himself clearly.
Just sayin'...........
He said that because people don't understand what he's saying about blacks, that MLK didn't do his job, to paraphrase.
Run away, very fast, because this guy isn't somebody we small-federal government people should want being some sort of martyr. He's off-message now, and it clearly isn't some trap by the NYT. He's just not somebody who has the skills to be the leader of any sort of movement that will have mass appeal, IMO.
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Not somebody we should make a poster-child for the conservative cause. Too many on the Right like Hannity are falling into the trap, and when Bundy goes off the reservation one too many times, all of his backers take the fall with him.
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My point regarding China and Iran, to a lesser degree Cuba, is people may think the systems there are just fine. Perhaps there is no desire, among most people is born, live, die. Why does everybody need to be happy. I don't know. I was born and raised here.
Think about why most people come here:
Religious persecution, political persecution, financial freedom, personal freedom.
I'm third generation American. Still have family in various European countries, Australia and South America. A variety of professions. Not all of them felt the need to leave. Some of them seem to be doing very well. Maybe just the malcontents felt the need to get out of Dodge.
If we could ONLY get our home-grown malcontents to leave our shores.
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Not somebody we should make a poster-child for the conservative cause. Too many on the Right like Hannity are falling into the trap, and when Bundy goes off the reservation one too many times, all of his backers take the fall with him.
Do you remember what "Joe the Plumber's" crime against America was?
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653)
'Maybe I sinned...maybe I don’t know what I actually said': Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy attempts befuddling apology
'Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,' the Nevada rancher told CNN on Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.
BY Leslie Larson
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, April 25, 2014, 10:17 AM
Cliven Bundy has his cowboy boot in his mouth following a befuddling attempt to apologize for his racist remarks.
“Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,” Bundy said Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.
“I took this boot off so I wouldn’t put my foot in my mouth with the boot on,” he told CNN’s Chris Cuomo, suggesting he was ready to back down and strike a more conciliatory tone.
But that hope was short-lived as Bundy soon dived in to criticize people for being too sensitive.
“When you talk about prejudice … we don’t have freedom to say what we want.”
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1768652.1398434595!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_1200/bundy26n-1-web.jpg?enlarged)
Rancher Cliven Bundy showed off his cowboy boot on Friday but still put his foot in his mouth.
“If those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done yet.”
Bundy’s comments, first reported Wednesday by the New York Times, alienated many conservative supporters — including Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz - who had jumped up to support the stubborn rancher for resisting the federal government's attempts to remove his cattle from public land.
Senate Majority Harry Reid, a Democrat from Bundy’s home state, called his constituent a "hateful racist."
Reid himself himself has been criticized for racial insensitivity for referring to Obama as a "light skinned" African American, "with no Negro dialect" during the 2008 presidential race, according to the campaign tell-all "Game Change."
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653)
'Maybe I sinned...maybe I don’t know what I actually said': Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy attempts befuddling apology
'Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,' the Nevada rancher told CNN on Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.
BY Leslie Larson
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, April 25, 2014, 10:17 AM
Cliven Bundy has his cowboy boot in his mouth following a befuddling attempt to apologize for his racist remarks.
“Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,” Bundy said Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.
“I took this boot off so I wouldn’t put my foot in my mouth with the boot on,” he told CNN’s Chris Cuomo, suggesting he was ready to back down and strike a more conciliatory tone.
But that hope was short-lived as Bundy soon dived in to criticize people for being too sensitive.
“When you talk about prejudice … we don’t have freedom to say what we want.”
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1768652.1398434595!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_1200/bundy26n-1-web.jpg?enlarged)
Rancher Cliven Bundy showed off his cowboy boot on Friday but still put his foot in his mouth.
“If those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done yet.”
Bundy’s comments, first reported Wednesday by the New York Times, alienated many conservative supporters — including Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz - who had jumped up to support the stubborn rancher for resisting the federal government's attempts to remove his cattle from public land.
Senate Majority Harry Reid, a Democrat from Bundy’s home state, called his constituent a "hateful racist."
Reid himself himself has been criticized for racial insensitivity for referring to Obama as a "light skinned" African American, "with no Negro dialect" during the 2008 presidential race, according to the campaign tell-all "Game Change."
In the mean time, the Obama Regime is seriously contemplating making a 9,000 acre land grab in the State of Texas, right along the area bordering Oklahoma.
So let's all focus our attention on some old guy rancher who just expressed his opinions to some low down and underhanded member of the Obama Regime's Propaganda Arm, because that is really important, right?
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In the mean time, the Obama Regime is seriously contemplating making a 9,000 acre land grab in the State of Texas, right along the area bordering Oklahoma.
So let's all focus our attention on some old guy rancher who just expressed his opinions to some low down and underhanded member of the Obama Regime's Propaganda Arm, because that is really important, right?
:thumbsup:
The media holds up any shiny object to divert attention from the salient point. They are very good at that and sometimes even we on the right jump at the lure.
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NY Times Reported Bundy's Offensive Remarks 4 Days Later (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/ny-times-reported-bundys-offensive-remarks-4-days-later)
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:thumbsup:
The media holds up any shiny object to divert attention from the salient point. They are very good at that and sometimes even we on the right jump at the lure.
Exactly. This is the Harry Reid Playbook to a T.
As I have said countless times, the issue here is not Cliven Bundy as a person. His comments (and by the way, I don't care who you are, you should ALWAYS plead the fifth on those kinds of questions whenever possible) don't change the central issue at hand: whether or not he should have the right to graze his cattle on that land, and whether or not the BLM should have taken the steps it tried to take to stop him.
As the old song goes... keep your eye on the sparrow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNWhVXcjV8
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My point regarding China and Iran, to a lesser degree Cuba, is people may think the systems there are just fine. Perhaps there is no desire, among most people is born, live, die. Why does everybody need to be happy. I don't know. I was born and raised here.
Think about why most people come here:
Religious persecution, political persecution, financial freedom, personal freedom.
I'm third generation American. Still have family in various European countries, Australia and South America. A variety of professions. Not all of them felt the need to leave. Some of them seem to be doing very well. Maybe just the malcontents felt the need to get out of Dodge.
Yet, in all those instances, with Cuba and pre-reform China being the most extreme, leaving to go make a new life for yourself elsewhere could cost you your life.
The same as slaves, NOT the same as current day welfare moochers.
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So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
It's very difficult to see how you are able to reach this conclusion.
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It's very difficult to see how you are able to reach this conclusion.
Here's his reply:
"... more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!"
"Having a government insisting" that people do one thing instead of another is replacing one government action with another.
That's replacing government action with inaction, and would probably be more successful since the "insisting" way would indubitably lead to government programs targeting people that need "insisting".
How about if the government gets out of the habit of subsidizing failure and financing sloth all together?
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Here's his reply:
"Having a government insisting" that people do one thing instead of another is replacing one government action with another.
That's replacing government action with inaction, and would probably be more successful since the "insisting" way would indubitably lead to government programs targeting people that need "insisting".
How about if the government gets out of the habit of subsidizing failure and financing sloth all together?
Now, this is what needs to happen. I'm more than confident that this is exactly what Bigun was saying in the first place.
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Now, this is what needs to happen. I'm more than confident that this is exactly what Bigun was saying in the first place.
So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?
How can I debate anyone when no one says what they actually meant to say?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImQZ8euKok (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImQZ8euKok)
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So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?
How can I debate anyone when no one says what they actually meant to say?
I can't speak for anybody else, but I am fluent in "Old Guy".
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImQZ8euKok (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImQZ8euKok)
Wow! It's been a coon's age since I last heard this!
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So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?
How can I debate anyone when no one says what they actually meant to say?
Here's what I said in reply to your question earlier:
Quote from: Luis Gonzalez on Today at 02:35:40 PM
So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
Absolutely not! MUCH less government action is in order in fact!
The reason they stay on the plantation is that WE allow the government to give them much more than they could possibly earn with a real job!
THAT should not ever happen in a free country!
Don't see how you could possibly misinterpret that but I guess you did!
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Here's what I said in reply to your question earlier:
Quote from: Luis Gonzalez on Today at 02:35:40 PM
So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
Absolutely not! MUCH less government action is in order in fact!
The reason they stay on the plantation is that WE allow the government to give them much more than they could possibly earn with a real job!
THAT should not ever happen in a free country!
Don't see how you could possibly misinterpret that but I guess you did!
I don't think that Luis is fluent in "Old Guy".
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So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?
How can I debate anyone when no one says what they actually meant to say?
Luis, you were Babe Ruth on this thread! :beer:
Having a 'slugger' who not only takes time by using detailed paragraphs, but continues to stay engaged with multiple opponents in a gentlemanly fashion is an asset to any forum.
Personally, am convinced it's a big reason why we've gotten some of our FRiends actively posting once again. :patriot:
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I don't think that Luis is fluent in "Old Guy".
Obviously not!
I thought I was fairly capable in the use of the English language but perhaps not.
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Obviously not!
I thought I was fairly capable in the use of the English language but perhaps not.
Perhaps the both of you need to become more fluent in the flow of conversational posts in a forum like this.
I didn't misinterpret what Bigun said, you just believe that I should have understood the explanation before he actually gave one.
First, Bgun said this:
"... more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!"
Then I responded by saying this:
So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.
To which Bigun replied with:
Absolutely not! MUCH less government action is in order in fact!
The reason they stay on the plantation is that WE allow the government to give them much more than they could possibly earn with a real job!
THAT should not ever happen in a free country!
THEN, many posts after that, Howie66 cames in and asks me how I reached the conclusion that I did (re: more government rather than less), and I explained how I got there.
That didn't mean that I didn't understand what Bigun said, I was just helping you understand why I had said what I had said to Bigun: "Having a government insisting" that people do one thing instead of another is replacing one government action with another"....etc, etc.
Please keep up with the flow of the conversation.
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Luis, you were Babe Ruth on this thread! :beer:
Having a 'slugger' who not only takes time by using detailed paragraphs, but continues to stay engaged with multiple opponents in a gentlemanly fashion is an asset to any forum.
Personally, am convinced it's a big reason why we've gotten some of our FRiends actively posting once again. :patriot:
I need a drink.
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/04/25/black_bundy_bodyguard_hes_not_a_racist_id_take_a_bullet_for_that_man.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/04/25/black_bundy_bodyguard_hes_not_a_racist_id_take_a_bullet_for_that_man.html)
Black Bundy Bodyguard: He's Not A Racist; "I'd Take A Bullet For That Man"
CNN REPORTER: You're protecting this man and he's wondering whether African-Americans would be better off as slaves. How does that strike you?
JASON BULLOCK, BODYGUARD FOR CLIVEN BUNDY: It doesn't strike me any kind of way. This is still the same old Mr. Bundy I met from the first day of all this happening.
CNN REPORTER: But aren't those offensive comments to you
BULLOCK: Not at all.
CNN REPORTER: Not offensive?
BULLOCK: Because Mr. Bundy is not a racist. Ever since I've been here he's treated me with nothing but hospitality. He's pretty much treated me like his own family.
###
BULLOCK: I would take a bullet for that man, if need be. I look up to him just like I do my own grandfather.
CNN REPORTER: Why?
BULLOCK: Because I believe in his cause and after having met Mr. Bundy a few times, I have a really good feel about him and I'm a pretty good judge of character.
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I need a drink.
We could all use one since you are buying..bloody mary please!
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We could all use one since you are buying..bloody mary please!
Virgin Mary for me - heavy on the celery salt.
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I'll take two fingers of Glenmorangie straight up please.
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I'll stay with water, thank you very much.
Thread derailed.
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I'll stay with water, thank you very much.
Thread derailed.
Sorry..my fault...just a little break....
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Sorry..my fault...just a little break....
Nope...my fault.
Just got a little excited to see posters back again, etc., and acknowledged a catalyst of sorts. LOL!
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Sorry..my fault...just a little break....
Can't stay serious all the time. That way lies insanity.
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I prefer a Xanax after reading all the posts. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDfNTybtvAjbDRut-PjvyDJHuX5SiR8dyQap3iLj0pBHoRG4U_)
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I'll stay with water, thank you very much.
Thread derailed.
Jimmy, you're the kind of guy who wakes me up in the middle of a dream that involved wine, a hot tub and Andrea Tantaros behaving in a very unladylike like manner.
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Hmmm...
I think I need to go to the Lilly pad for a bit.
Back soon.
(http://www.idgconnect.com/IMG/240/3240/boiling-frog-2.jpg)
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DC Patriot wrote above:
[[ IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites. We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation. ]]
Don't want to throw to much in that is off-topic, but...
What sets TBR (and other sites) apart from TOS is the fact that TOS seems to be run as a "for profit" operation, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to "the refrain" over there is subject to getting tossed off, either by the moderators or by the owner himself...
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Luis wrote above:
[[ Answer one question honestly.
Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal slave over a rhetorical one? ]]
Wait another 20-25 years Luis -- and if things keep going the way they're going NOW, you may have the answer to that question yourself.
Along with a lot of others...
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/10150696_631869453556533_1858387231921248844_n.jpg?dl=1)
Bundy Ranch
Our little fighter "Brave" couldn't be brave anymore. He left us early this morning. We tried all night to help him and save him but he was to abused. The BLM and those contract cowboys should be ashamed. Those were not real cowboys, real cowboys know how to take care of cattle. Not kill them!
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/10150696_631869453556533_1858387231921248844_n.jpg?dl=1)
Bundy Ranch
Our little fighter "Brave" couldn't be brave anymore. He left us early this morning. We tried all night to help him and save him but he was to abused. The BLM and those contract cowboys should be ashamed. Those were not real cowboys, real cowboys know how to take care of cattle. Not kill them!
Our Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.
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Our Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ndsXVaPwc
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Luis wrote above:
[[ Answer one question honestly.
Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal slave over a rhetorical one? ]]
Wait another 20-25 years Luis -- and if things keep going the way they're going NOW, you may have the answer to that question yourself.
Along with a lot of others...
I really don't think so, and yours is a non-answer.
I've tried to engage in an open and honest debate where I've explained and detailed my posts, and I've answered as many questions and challenges as I've seen come across the board, now both you and Howie66 respond with dodges.
I don't people being sold into slavery in another 20-25 years, to say so is just hyperbole.
I don't see us being chained and branded with irons in order to identify us as another person's property.
I don't see our women raped with impunity and our children ripped from our arms and sold .
That, and much more, is REAL slavery, the type of slavery that Bundy suggested the Negro may be better off being in.
Now, I ask you again...
Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal slave over an allegorical one?
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Instead of having bodyguards speak for Mr Bundy, I think that he should hire a professional media team to "spin" his case. It looks he can afford one.
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Our Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.
You're absolutely right.
George Washington personally led 13,000 militia into Western Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion. He remains today the only sitting American President ever to personally lead an Army into the field.
To keep things in perspective, those 13,000 militia that Washington led into Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion amounted to about 0.18% of the total population of the US.
Sending an equal percentage of the population of today's America to deal with Bundy and his supporters would have the Federal government sending over 565,000 troops into Nevada.
The Founders were willing to shoot anyone engaging in sedition on sight, and they weren't afraid to exercise the full power of the United States to do put down rebellions.
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You're absolutely right.
George Washington personally led 13,000 militia into Western Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion. He remains today the only sitting American President ever to personally lead an Army into the field.
To keep things in perspective, those 13,000 militia that Washington led into Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion amounted to about 0.18% of the total population of the US.
Sending an equal percentage of the population of today's America to deal with Bundy and his supporters would have the Federal government sending over 565,000 troops into Nevada.
The Founders were willing to shoot anyone engaging in sedition on sight, and they weren't afraid to exercise the full power of the United States to do put down rebellions.
:beer:
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Instead of having bodyguards speak for Mr Bundy, I think that he should hire a professional media team to "spin" his case. It looks he can afford one.
Well...a black guy applies for the job...gets hired...and to his surprise, is invited into the Bundy household where he is treated as one of their family.
Knowing him only a week. Finally, he prides himself on being a good judge of character.
That "speaks" for itself, imo.
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Well...a black guy applies for the job...gets hired...and to his surprise, is invited into the Bundy household where he is treated as one of their family.
Knowing him only a week. Finally, he prides himself on being a good judge of character.
That "speaks" for itself, imo.
I would of had a prepared statement for the crowd. The networks these days are scanning every word you say, especially anything that can be perceived as politically incorrect. I still support Mr. Bundy
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Why then every Republican, including Rand Paul are running for the hills?
Not every republican is running for the hills. Only the ones who are politicians or those speaking at their audience for ratings. Besides, as a conservative, I came to my own opinions, regardless of what the majority tell me. I'm not blind, or deaf, or stupid, and can come to my own opinions. What Bundy said was taken out of context. He's not a public speaker and got duped by the reporter, something that could happen to millions of Americans who are used to being in the public eye. I would probably trip over my tongue if ever required to do public speaking. It's normal.
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Not every republican is running for the hills. Only the ones who are politicians or those speaking at their audience for ratings. Besides, as a conservative, I came to my own opinions, regardless of what the majority tell me. I'm not blind, or deaf, or stupid, and can come to my own opinions. What Bundy said was taken out of context. He's not a public speaker and got duped by the reporter, something that could happen to millions of Americans who are used to being in the public eye. I would probably trip over my tongue if ever required to do public speaking. It's normal.
You make a good point, but you need to watch what you say because it may be take out of context. That is why I proposed either have a prepared speech or a professional media company handle this. I am sure Mr. Bundy can afford one or provided one by a big Washington conservative "think tanks" the Reason Foundation that are trained to take on these types of situations..
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You make a good point, but you need to watch what you say because it may be take out of context. That is why I proposed either have a prepared speech or a professional media company handle this. I am sure Mr. Bundy can afford one or provided one by a big Washington conservative "think tanks" the Reason Foundation.
Does that mean everyone should be prepared to hire a professional in case a microphone is slapped in front of us? That is all this amounts to. Bundy is just an ordinary man. He was made famous, not by his statements alone, but by the over-zealous media destroying a man for ratings or poll numbers. Around here, I might be taken out of context. So be it.
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Does that mean everyone should be prepared to hire a professional in case a microphone is slapped in front of us? That is all this amounts to. Bundy is just an ordinary man. He was made famous, not by his statements alone, but by the over-zealous media destroying a man for ratings or poll numbers. Around here, I might be taken out of context. So be it.
No. Just be careful and watch what you have to say, that is all. There are eyes and ears(especially in a liberal media) waiting for you to mess up waiting for you to pounce.
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Does that mean everyone should be prepared to hire a professional in case a microphone is slapped in front of us? That is all this amounts to. Bundy is just an ordinary man. He was made famous, not by his statements alone, but by the over-zealous media destroying a man for ratings or poll numbers. Around here, I might be taken out of context. So be it.
An option when you are not confident in your remarks is to say "I have no comment at this time."
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An option when you are not confident in your remarks is to say "I have no comment at this time."
:beer:
A simple "No comment in time at this time" would have suffice instead of pouring gasoline into the fire. Excellent Point!!!!
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No. Just be careful and watch what you have to say, that is all. There are eyes and ears(especially in a liberal media) waiting for you to mess up waiting for you to pounce.
Even a fish wouldn't get caught if it kept it's mouth shut.
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Obviously not!
I thought I was fairly capable in the use of the English language but perhaps not.
I understood you perfectly Bigun. It's young guy that I have trouble understanding.
This definitely requires interpretation for context
"So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?"
WTF??
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I need a drink.
Heh..more like pitchin' em high and catchin' em low.
But, a drink is also in order.
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I understood you perfectly Bigun. It's young guy that I have trouble understanding.
This definitely requires interpretation for context
"So now we're. It only needing to explain what Bundy said, but we have nuance translation services for Bigun too?"
WTF??
I've learned that it's hard to type when you're drunk!
Not directed at anyone in particular but a simple statement of fact!
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I've learned that it's hard to type when you're drunk!
Not directed at anyone in particular but a simple statement of fact!
LOL...priceless!!
And it makes sense too.
And I didn't have any trouble understanding it.
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Even a fish wouldn't get caught if it kept it's mouth shut.
Can I use that one?
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http://www.newsmax.com/PrintTemplate.aspx/?nodeid=567836 (http://www.newsmax.com/PrintTemplate.aspx/?nodeid=567836)
Newsmax
Niger Innis: Cliven Bundy 'Clumsily' Stated an Important Point
Friday, April 25, 2014 06:16 PM
By: Joe Battaglia
After a lengthy conversation, embattled Nevada cattle rancher Cliven Bundy finally understood the racist tone of his remarks and apologized privately, according to Niger Innis, the national spokesman for the Congress of Racial Equality.
Bundy brought nationwide attention and support for his battle with the federal government over grazing rights when he faced down armed agents from the Bureau of Land Management as they seized several hundred of his cattle.
Many of those who came to the support of the 67-year-old fled for cover when The New York Times quoted him as saying he was "wondering" if blacks are better off now than they were under slavery.
Innis, who is running for Congress in Nevada, told J.D. Hayworth on "America's Forum" on Newsmax TV that he spoke with Bundy for about an hour on Thursday and finally got him to realize the repugnant nature of his comments.
"We talked for about an hour, and it was a good give and take," Innis said. "At first, Cliven kind of stood his ground and said, 'I said what I said, and I stand by it.' I communicated to him, and this is when he really got it.
"I said, 'Cliven, the freedom of choice, the freedom to use our lands, the people of Nevada to use our land for economic development and so on and so forth against the federal government is, that freedom that you're fighting for, is the freedom that was denied to millions of African Americans. That was the greatest sin of slavery is that it denied millions of African Americans of their ability to pursue happiness.' When I said that it was almost like a light bulb went on, he apologized to me."
Innis said he does not believe Bundy to be inherently racist but said that he "clumsily" used a bad metaphor to try and make an important point.
"What would've been better is if Cliven had said, 'Look, there are a number of blacks and Latinos and poor whites now that are involved in a real slavery, which is the slavery of government dependence,'" Innis said. "I'm up here in Tonopah, which is part of my district, and I was just talking with a local businesswoman who pointed across the street and talked to me about low-income housing or free government-subsidized housing and how the people there do not work because they don't have to.
"They may not even know that they are slaves, but there is in fact a neoslavery that exists. When you take out individual initiative, individual responsibility, and the hope that every individual is born with, to better their lives, to climb the economic ladder, to pursue happiness, that is in fact a neoslavery."
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"Cliven Bundy said he would continue holding a daily news conference."
I have been trying to be reserved in my comments about the Bundy story knowing that many of you see this as a clear case of justifiable defiance and would be down there on horseback gun in hand if you could. While others after first supporting his stance now see him as turning into a media whore and wish this story would go away before we get hot and heavy into the election season, knowing how the Left will use misspoken words out of Bundy's mouth against us.
I fall on the side that this needs to deescalate and fast. Not give up mind you, he can take his case to court and be tried by a jury of his peers, like it should have been handled. A land-use dispute story that never should have made the news outside of his county - like hundreds of others happening across the country at any given time. And this de-escalation should begin by him ending these daily news conferences, and telling the media to just go away I have nothing more to say.
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Can I use that one?
Yeah but send me a nickel! :beer:
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"Cliven Bundy said he would continue holding a daily news conference."
I have been trying to be reserved in my comments about the Bundy story knowing that many of you see this as a clear case of justifiable defiance and would be down there on horseback gun in hand if you could. While others after first supporting his stance now see him as turning into a media whore and wish this story would go away before we get hot and heavy into the election season, knowing how the Left will use misspoken words out of Bundy's mouth against us.
I fall on the side that this needs to deescalate and fast. Not give up mind you, he can take his case to court and be tried by a jury of his peers, like it should have been handled. A land-use dispute story that never should have made the news outside of his county - like hundreds of others happening across the country at any given time. And this de-escalation should begin by him ending these daily news conferences, and telling the media to just go away I have nothing more to say.
Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/mystery-ak/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/mystery-ak/media/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif.html)
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:amen: :amen: :amen: Wow, alice! You spoke for me, too. Great post!
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Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
It won't be long before they get'em for "anti-gay remarks."
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It won't be long before they get'em for "anti-gay remarks."
Oh, Lord. You're right, I forgot about that.
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The Triad Sacrament of The Left: Racism. Homophobia. Misogyny.
Go and sin no more.
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Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/mystery-ak/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/mystery-ak/media/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif.html)
and thats why conservatives should never talk to the MSM.
I have not watched network news or bought a newspaper in 35 some years
I can get better and more accurate information by the Internet and books
conservatives and sensible folks need to cut off the media completely
I said at the beginning of this,that the racism claims were BS. If people are stupid to believe anything the media says about any subject after rathergate and all the years of lying and being the propaganda arm of the democratic party. They are just frankly idiots anyway
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The Triad Sacrament of The Left: Racism. Homophobia. Misogyny.
Go and sin no more.
I think you could throw Christianity in there too.
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Does that mean everyone should be prepared to hire a professional in case a microphone is slapped in front of us? That is all this amounts to. Bundy is just an ordinary man. He was made famous, not by his statements alone, but by the over-zealous media destroying a man for ratings or poll numbers. Around here, I might be taken out of context. So be it.
According to everything that I've read, Bundy wasn't being interviewed by anyone. He's gotten into the habit of addressing whatever number of people are present at the Bundy ranch on a daily basis. There (obviously) are some members of the media there.
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and thats why conservatives should never talk to the MSM.
I have not watched network news or bought a newspaper in 35 some years
I can get better and more accurate information by the Internet and books
conservatives and sensible folks need to cut off the media completely
I said at the beginning of this,that the racism claims were BS. If people are stupid to believe anything the media says about any subject after rathergate and all the years of lying and being the propaganda arm of the democratic party. They are just frankly idiots anyway
Agree! :amen:
We gave up television over a year ago for that reason - tired of paying for the garbage to come into my house. (You're supposed to take trash out, aren't you?)
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Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/mystery-ak/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/mystery-ak/media/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif.html)
Simple question. I don't need you to explain what Bundy meant, or the larger context of his remarks.
Do you think that blacks would be better off as slaves than living under their current conditions?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do.
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According to everything that I've read, Bundy wasn't being interviewed by anyone. He's gotten into the habit of addressing whatever number of people are present at the Bundy ranch on a daily basis. There (obviously) are some members of the media there.
You are obsessed with Bundy. It is just my opinion - but I think you've got an mental dysfunction lasting more than four hours - you should seek professional help.
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I've learned that it's hard to type when you're drunk!
Not directed at anyone in particular but a simple statement of fact!
This site is not iPhone friendly.
You've read way too many of my posts to believe that I ever would post either drunk, or not cohesively.
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According to everything that I've read, Bundy wasn't being interviewed by anyone. He's gotten into the habit of addressing whatever number of people are present at the Bundy ranch on a daily basis. There (obviously) are some members of the media there.
It was stated in dozens of reports that only ONE reporter and one photographer was there at that time. Obviously, you are wrong.
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You are obsessed with Bundy. It is just my opinion - but I think you've got an mental dysfunction lasting more than four hours - you should seek professional help.
I'm obsessed with Bundy?
What about everyone else commenting on every Bundy thread on this and every other site on the Internet, you included?
Doesn't make all of you as obsessed with Bundy?
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It was stated in dozens of reports that only ONE reporter and one photographer was there at that time. Obviously, you are wrong.
So he wasn't having a microphone showed in his face, he was stumping for the crowd.
In other words, it isn't some sort of evil, leftist media plot.
Bundy made moronic statements all on his own and the media happened to be there to record them.
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Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/mystery-ak/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/mystery-ak/media/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif.html)
:hands:
Thank You so much, Alice!! Excellent Post, should be post of the Month!! So refreshing to read something "real" from someone that gets it, after having to wade through all of the overwrought legalistic tripe that's been clogging these threads lately!! Brava!!
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Gonna move this to the Members only Category....
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Gonna move this to the Members only Category....
Do you think what alicewonders is doing is right and beneficial to the forum?
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alice and Luis...if you are looking for your posts I removed them....please get the thread back on track...
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alicewonders wrote above:
[[ The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it? ]]
It will remain a tool only so long as whites allow others to USE IT "as a tool".
The key word here is "allow". Yes, the cry of "racis'!" is used against whites because whites LET it be used against them, and even encourage the same.
The moment a "person of color" hurls the "racist" word at a white, the following usually happens:
- The white responds to the tune of (and yes, it's like he/she were a dancing marionette), "no, I'm NOT a racist"....
- And from that moment, the other side has won.
They have won because from that point on, they have succeeded in changing the conversation. Whatever was being discussed or argued before no longer matters. All that matters NOW is that the white is a "racist", and he must respond to that.
Like George Bush dodging the shoe flying at him, the immediate reflex of someone with an harmful object tossed at him is to duck. Hence, when a verbal javelin is thrown, the white (without thinking things through) tries to dodge from it with the response, "I'm not a racist".
But the only deflection that occurs is the original course of the conversation. The white can no longer present his argument, but -- now having [had his "racism"] become the center of the argument itself, must defend himself, and not the issue.
Usually, the quickest, easiest (but not the best) defense is to respond to wit: "that's not what I meant" -- and then either try to withdraw from the argument or simply shut up altogether.
And by doing this, the other side has won, hands down.
So long as this goes on, the "racial conversation" in America will remain one-sided and it can never change.
As Eric Holder himself said, we have become "a nation of cowards" insofar as race is concerned.
Is it not yet time to stop being cowards, to speak freely?
Is it not time for the "dialogue" (which implies input from both sides) to actually BEGIN?
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Thank you, Sir, for a well argued point. :beer:
There are racists out there (of all colors). They should be called on it, though they'll almost never change. Personally, I can't abide any form of discrimination and won't tolerate it.
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I think, with a few exceptions, the topic of this thread has been an excellent one. Not the racism part, that topic has been reduced to a joke. And not because of the legal aspects, I'll leave that to others to sort out.
It is because it brings to light an extremely important topic that no one will address and that topic is this abusive, oversized, intrusive, out of control, often illegal federal government that threatens our very existence.
I wish more Americans would step up and make the challenge.
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alicewonders wrote above:
[[ The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it? ]]
It will remain a tool only so long as whites allow others to USE IT "as a tool".
The key word here is "allow". Yes, the cry of "racis'!" is used against whites because whites LET it be used against them, and even encourage the same.
The moment a "person of color" hurls the "racist" word at a white, the following usually happens:
- The white responds to the tune of (and yes, it's like he/she were a dancing marionette), "no, I'm NOT a racist"....
- And from that moment, the other side has won.
They have won because from that point on, they have succeeded in changing the conversation. Whatever was being discussed or argued before no longer matters. All that matters NOW is that the white is a "racist", and he must respond to that.
Like George Bush dodging the shoe flying at him, the immediate reflex of someone with an harmful object tossed at him is to duck. Hence, when a verbal javelin is thrown, the white (without thinking things through) tries to dodge from it with the response, "I'm not a racist".
But the only deflection that occurs is the original course of the conversation. The white can no longer present his argument, but -- now having [had his "racism"] become the center of the argument itself, must defend himself, and not the issue.
Usually, the quickest, easiest (but not the best) defense is to respond to wit: "that's not what I meant" -- and then either try to withdraw from the argument or simply shut up altogether.
And by doing this, the other side has won, hands down.
So long as this goes on, the "racial conversation" in America will remain one-sided and it can never change.
As Eric Holder himself said, we have become "a nation of cowards" insofar as race is concerned.
Is it not yet time to stop being cowards, to speak freely?
Is it not time for the "dialogue" (which implies input from both sides) to actually BEGIN?
Good posting.
Having said (and agreed) with everything you posted, we have to consider the rest of the argument.
Cliven Bundy made a simple, misguided statement. He did it without coercion and entirely on his own.
He detailed his perception of current black American life, based on his personal experience, and wondered if blacks would be better off as slaves than in their current situation.
That is a massively ignorant statement, even to someone like me, who has been writing about liberal neoracism for quite some time.
Chris Mathews, David Gregory, and Progressive Neoracism (http://boilingfrogs.wordpress.com/2011/05/21/chris-matthews-david-gregory-and-the-birth-of-progressive-neoracism/)
Having said all that, Bundy deserves to be criticized. His right to exercise his constitutionally-guaranteed freedom to speak his mind does not preempt my own rights to criticize him.
I find Bundy's statement as offensive as I do Harry Reid's "domestic terrorist" statement. They should BOTH be called out for making such offensive remarks.
We should never use the "racist" accusation as a political tool, the left certainly does, but that doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist. It does, from both blacks and whites.
Want to call Bundy's remarks ignorant and not racist?
That's fine, but what no one can do is assign some deeper, more esoteric meaning in an attempt to excuse the man's ignorance.
That doesn't make him right, it just makes us as wrong as those on the left who do the very same thing to obfuscate the massive racist behavior from their side.
There is a rather simple test to help you bring yourself to the core of this question:
Under what circumstances would you have to find yourself that would make you think that you would be better of as a literal (not allegorical or theoretical) slave?
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Excellent piece by Mark Steyn on the Cliven Bundy "racist" imbroglio here:
http://www.steynonline.com/6293/how-now-white-cowman
Not long, worth your time.
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Excellent piece by Mark Steyn on the Cliven Bundy "racist" imbroglio here:
http://www.steynonline.com/6293/how-now-white-cowman
Not long, worth your time.
Thanks.
From Steyn's piece:
In other words, the purpose of the federal bureaucracy's "grazing fee" was never to provide a fair-market value for the cost to taxpayers of permitting grazing on public land but simply to drive those cattle off the land.
I never knew Ronald Reagan was such an a-hole.
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alice and Luis...if you are looking for your posts I removed them....please get the thread back on track...
I removed the ones you missed.
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Steyn usually gets it right. He did not disappoint.
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aren't we tired of this thread yet?
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I only read the last couple of pages. And, yes, you're right. It is a little tiring, now.
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I only read the last couple of pages. And, yes, you're right. It is a little tiring, now.
(http://www.hearthandmadeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tribute_to_analog_TV_pin.jpg)
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****cute kitty
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Simple question. I don't need you to explain what Bundy meant, or the larger context of his remarks.
Do you think that blacks would be better off as slaves than living under their current conditions?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do.
It's nothing more than James Carville dragging a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park. Have you seen the comedian who uses the phrase "I had the right to remain silent but did not have the ability?".
You're quite the wordsmith. Could you go back through everything you have ever said, throughout your entire life, not with the rules of law but the court of public opinion and not have it somehow, edited or twisted? They did it to Sarah Palin, "Joe the Plumber", Dick Cheney and 12 dozen hundred on the Right. But there's always a life ring to someone on the Left.
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It's nothing more than James Carville dragging a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park. Have you seen the comedian who uses the phrase "I had the right to remain silent but did not have the ability?".
You're quite the wordsmith. Could you go back through everything you have ever said, throughout your entire life, not with the rules of law but the court of public opinion and not have it somehow, edited or twisted? They did it to Sarah Palin, "Joe the Plumber", Dick Cheney and 12 dozen hundred on the Right. But there's always a life ring to someone on the Left.
Do you think that blacks would be better off as slaves than living under their current conditions?
Yes, or no.
Which is it?
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****cute kitty
^-^
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Do you think that blacks would be better off as slaves than living under their current conditions?
Yes, or no.
Which is it?
Current condtions for many blacks is worse than slavery. Just look back to Hurricane Katrina. There were people who were totally lost without the government to tell them what to do. What was the difference between that and a barrelful of salt pork and hominy and an EBT card and Section 8?
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Current condtions for many blacks is worse than slavery. Just look back to Hurricane Katrina. There were people who were totally lost without the government to tell them what to do. What was the difference between that and a barrelful of salt pork and hominy and an EBT card and Section 8?
Wow
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Wow
Lets scroll back a bit. Only 30 years, so not looking at historical stuff.
What would you call someone who has to go where he's sent, do exactly what he is told, has zero say in how he's treated, has exactly zero human rights, and can't vote?
A slave?
Sorry, that's a soldier. Voluntary slavery - at it's finest.
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Wow
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-upWGy5k4OLA/TdM45-SubtI/AAAAAAAABfk/Dchto7-rXks/s1600/beating+a+dead+horse.jpg#beating%20a%20dead%20horse%20637x494)
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Lets scroll back a bit. Only 30 years, so not looking at historical stuff.
What would you call someone who has to go where he's sent, do exactly what he is told, has zero say in how he's treated, has exactly zero human rights, and can't vote?
A slave?
Sorry, that's a soldier. Voluntary slavery - at it's finest.
You're all so far down the rabbit hole in defending the indefensible that you will define marriage as self-imposed slavery just to make a point.
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You're all so far down the rabbit hole in defending the indefensible that you will define marriage as self-imposed slavery just to make a point.
Nobody here disputes that SLAVERY is abhorrent. Treating a human being as property, as a pet, as a farm working animal...is anathema to all of us.
To think....it was an immigration 'problem' that made slavery possible in the first place.
It was a labor shortage....not a case of white Colonists wanting to master over another's life.
Have been playing detective in my mind...as I'm wont to do when being empathetic about a person.
#1. Bundy's not a racist. At least not in a sense that he would look down on a black man in front of him. Rather it seems, he's using MLK's criteria. Character vs color.
#2. Bundy's use of the word "negro" doesn't make him a cultural idiot. A while back, we talked about "pop" vs. "soda". Depends on where you're from and where you lived.
#3 Bundy is not a LIV. He's sufficiently aware of the plight of the American black and their economic cost to the government. He is aware of blacks' effect on crime statistics....nationally, state and local. Just like we are aware.
You could probably pick twelve random families living in a crime, gang infested project in NY or Chicago right now with no future, no safety, no hope of getting out.
I'd bet money that more than half of them would work for no wages for free room and board and a guarantee of safety and an education.
One is voluntary...the other isn't. Both are slaves.
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Nobody here disputes that SLAVERY is abhorrent. Treating a human being as property, as a pet, as a farm working animal...is anathema to all of us.
To think....it was an immigration 'problem' that made slavery possible in the first place.
It was a labor shortage....not a case of white Colonists wanting to master over another's life.
Have been playing detective in my mind...as I'm wont to do when being empathetic about a person.
#1. Bundy's not a racist. At least not in a sense that he would look down on a black man in front of him. Rather it seems, he's using MLK's criteria. Character vs color.
#2. Bundy's use of the word "negro" doesn't make him a cultural idiot. A while back, we talked about "pop" vs. "soda". Depends on where you're from and where you lived.
#3 Bundy is not a LIV. He's sufficiently aware of the plight of the American black and their economic cost to the government. He is aware of blacks' effect on crime statistics....nationally, state and local. Just like we are aware.
You could probably pick twelve random families living in a crime, gang infested project in NY or Chicago right now with no future, no safety, no hope of getting out.
I'd bet money that more than half of them would work for no wages for free room and board and a guarantee of safety and an education.
One is voluntary...the other isn't. Both are slaves.
:hands:
Excellent points all the way around, Thank You!!
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Of course, Mr. Bundy should give up the daily news conferences - but the media will keep encouraging it - because now they have him in a cage...on public display....someone they can prod with a stick and make a spectacle of when he reacts. They caught themselves a genuine white cracka racist! And they're going to keep him on display as long as he serves their purpose - to show the world that anyone that dares to try to fight the gubmint (long guffaws and loud belly laughter) is an ignorant redneck bigoted racist - see! We got one right here - this is what they sound like! We caught us an honest-to-God REAL in the flesh BigFoot ....er, .....no .....um .....PATRIOT! Yeah - that's what they call themselves, but as anyone can plainly see - they're really just RACISTS. Oooooooooh, horrified whispers .........disgusted looks ...........must distance yourselves from this monster is you don't want his feces flung on your own faces.
No, the media is going to keep him in the spotlight as long as they can - he is so useful to them. He is an example of what will happen to any ordinary citizen that dares to defy the almighty Federal Government. It will be awhile before any brave/stupid soul will make that mistake again. Look at the monster! Look at him before we kill him with a thousand paper cuts - LOOK at him while you still can and think very carefully before you attempt to stick YOUR neck out.
And don't even make the mistake of feeling pity for him - don't even think for one slight minute that maybe he isn't REALLY a racist - but just an old stubborn man that got caught up into a media trap of thinking all of his thoughts were profound and ..... that he was "important". Don't even think for one small minute of trying to say that you don't think that this MONSTER is anything but an evil, satanic racist - don't even go there!
If you even dare to even try to say that Mr. Bundy really isn't racist, but he really might even be a man that sees the modern welfare system as a system to enslave people institutionally --- IF you dare to try to say that he didn't mean that blacks should go BACK to slavery, that they would be better off. (Who thinks that? No one in their right mind!) IF. YOU. DARE. to even think about trying to come to this poor creature's defense -
YOU will be thrown into the cage right there with him - AND your words will be pinned to your chest like a scarlet A.... YES! That is what will happen to you too! And your INQUISITORS will be your own people - those that are "smart" enough to fear being painted with the same brush! "Smart" enough to distance themselves as far away as possible because the left is WATCHING and they are LISTENING to all of us....Big Brother is watching and will report any further possible instances of RACISM - and will make as big a deal as possible about it to distract from any real issues that might be occuring.
The taint of racism........it's quite an effective tool - STILL. Isn't it?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c12/mystery-ak/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif) (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/mystery-ak/media/computer%20gifs/ce55a98b-eb16-4bb0-b1cf-eeaf6fd51ae8_zpsddac1ae8.gif.html)
And if that doesn't work we will have the IRS make an allegation against him!
Even if he eventually proves it to be false he will still be broke when it's over!
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and thats why conservatives should never talk to the MSM.
I have not watched network news or bought a newspaper in 35 some years
I can get better and more accurate information by the Internet and books
conservatives and sensible folks need to cut off the media completely
I said at the beginning of this,that the racism claims were BS. If people are stupid to believe anything the media says about any subject after rathergate and all the years of lying and being the propaganda arm of the democratic party. They are just frankly idiots anyway
:amen: :amen: and :amen:!
They understand no circulation and no viewership! Anything else they ignore!
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:amen: :amen: and :amen:!
They understand no circulation and no viewership! Anything else they ignore!
I simple "No Comment" or Refer to my attorney for a statement" would suffice
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aren't we tired of this thread yet?
I've been to the hospital, had a hip replaced, come back home, and it's still going on! :laugh:
OK, a couple of my comments were from the hospital.
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I've been to the hospital, had a hip replaced, come back home, and it's still going on! :laugh:
OK, a couple of my comments were from the hospital.
It the "beating a dead horse" thing available?
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I've been to the hospital, had a hip replaced, come back home, and it's still going on! :laugh:
OK, a couple of my comments were from the hospital.
And here I thought we were beating a dead horse. It turns out the horse was alive the whole time. It was just getting its hip replaced. :thud:
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And here I thought we were beating a dead horse. It turns out the horse was alive the whole time. It was just getting its hip replaced. :thud:
Considering the subject, maybe we need a "beating a dead zebra" smiley.
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Beating the dead horse? They shoot horses don't they?
OK, that's more of the BLM so I won't go there. :smokin:
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April 2014
Sagebrush Rebellion Redivivus
William Perry Pendley
President, Mountain States Legal Foundation
WILLIAM PERRY PENDLEY is president and chief operating officer of Mountain States Legal Foundation. He received his B.A. and M.A. degrees in economics and political science from George Washington University and his J.D. from the University of Wyoming College of Law. During the Reagan administration, he served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Energy and Minerals at the Department of the Interior. He is the author of several books, including War on the West: Government Tyranny on America’s Great Frontier and Sagebrush Rebel: Reagan’s Battle with Environmental Extremists and Why It Matters Today.
The following is adapted from a speech delivered on April 23, 2014, at a Hillsdale College event in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
For many or maybe even most Americans, reports that a rancher in Clark County, Nevada, was at odds with federal land bureaucrats, that scores of federal lawyers were litigating against him, and that SWAT-garbed and heavily armed federal law-enforcement officers had surrounded his place might have come as a surprise. They might have been even more surprised, in the wake of this standoff—which ended short of deadly escalation thanks in part to negotiations by a local sheriff—to hear that over 50 elected officials from nine Western states had gathered in Utah to discuss a state takeover of a significant portion of federally owned land in the American West. But Westerners—especially rural Westerners who make a living on the federal lands that predominate beyond the hundredth meridian, by logging, mining, ranching, or developing energy resources—were not surprised at all.
What has been most lacking in the reporting on these stories is the background of the disputes. And it should be stated up front, in all fairness, that the Obama administration is not unique in pursuing policies anathema to Westerners. On that score, it has simply followed the examples of the Carter and Clinton administrations.
In the late 1970s, President Carter’s “War on the West” spawned what came to be known as the Sagebrush Rebellion, which Ronald Reagan embraced during his campaign for president in 1980: “I happen to be one who cheers and supports the Sagebrush Rebellion,” candidate Reagan proclaimed in a speech in Salt Lake City. “Count me in as a rebel.” The uprising was spurred by the fact that, more than any other region, the American West had been victimized by the environmental policies implemented—utterly regardless of their destructive economic and human consequences—during the previous two decades. Reagan had seen firsthand the transformation of the environmental movement from one of conservation and stewardship, in which the part played by human beings and technology was vital, to a movement in which humans and technology were understood to be enemies of nature. As articulated by Reagan, opposition to extreme environmentalism represented a return to true environmentalism. America’s “environment[al] heritage” will not be jeopardized, he promised, while at the same time insisting that “we are going to reaffirm that the economic prosperity of our people is a fundamental part of our environment.”
In terms of the public land issue, Reagan blamed “a tiny minority opposed to economic growth” for locking up federal lands that hold “probably 70 percent of the potential oil in the United States,” and he vowed to support the use of federal lands to meet America’s energy, economic, and foreign policy needs. As former governor of California, he knew all too well that the federal government owns a third of the land that makes up the United States, the vast majority of this being in the West. Federal holdings include nearly a third of Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, and Washington; roughly half of Arizona, California, Oregon, and Wyoming; and two-thirds or more of Alaska, Idaho, Nevada, and Utah. By comparison, the three non-Western states with the most federal land are New Hampshire at 14 percent, Florida at 13 percent, and Michigan at ten percent.
Some portion of this federally owned land, of course, consists of parks, which are preserved for public recreation. Other parts are wilderness areas, where motorized activity is barred. But most of the land controlled by the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service is open, by law, to “multiple use” activities, including cattle grazing, recreation, and energy and mineral development. This is the land where disputes arise over use—and it is in these disputes where the Obama administration has picked up where the Carter and Clinton administrations left off, adopting the no-use policies promoted by environmental groups who view all federal lands as off limits to productive human activity.
A typical way these policies get implemented is for environmental interest groups to sue a government agency under either the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) or the Endangered Species Act (ESA), and for the agency then to settle the lawsuit in the interest group’s favor. Sometimes—as in a 2008 lawsuit filed against the U.S. Forest Service by three environmental groups to prevent oil, gas, and mineral extraction in Pennsylvania—the government not only settles the lawsuit but also pays the interest groups for their complaints (in that case paying out nearly $20,000). Just last month, Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt filed a lawsuit against the Interior Department and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service over such “sue and settle” tactics following an ESA lawsuit by a group called Wild Earth Guardians that sought to restrict land use for agriculture, oil and gas drilling, wind farms, and other activities in a five-state area—Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas—inhabited by the lesser prairie chicken. “These settlements,” Pruitt said in a statement, “impose tougher regulations and shorter timelines than those imposed by Congress,” and thus violate the rule of law. “Oklahoma has indicated its willingness to protect the lesser prairie chicken,” he added, “but it seems increasingly clear this issue isn’t about sound science or saving endangered species.”
Following a recent report by the Government Accountability Office on how NEPA is being used to delay projects on federal lands, Dan Kish of the Institute for Energy Research characterized NEPA’s effect as “paralysis by analysis,” pointing out that “environmental impact statements, which were expected to take no more than 12 months 30 years ago, now take an estimated 4.6 years to complete.” NEPA’s consequences are wide-ranging: Since its passage in 1969, not a single new oil refinery has been built. Following forest fires in the West, as reported by the National Forest Association, “[NEPA] regulations . . . [delay] harvests of diseased or burned timber indefinitely. As such, usable salvage timber wastefully rots away, resulting in lost government income . . . and economic privation for local communities.” And after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans, it was too little noted that twice—in 1977 and in 1996—plans to build a hurricane barrier and to raise and strengthen the levees were halted by environmentalist NEPA lawsuits.
Today the Keystone XL Pipeline—a decision about which has again been delayed, until late this year at the earliest—is only the most publicized of the promising projects, in terms of both economic prosperity and national defense, which are being delayed and/or prevented by NEPA requirements. For example, rare earth elements are critical to today’s high-tech and transportation industries, telecommunications, military uses, and clean energy technology, and China currently has 95 percent of the world’s supply of these elements—“The Middle East has oil, China has rare earths,” said former Chinese Premier Deng Xiaoping. Despite this, rare earth mines in both Wyoming and California seem to have been put on permanent hold. One company that submitted its operations plan in 2012 has been told that the NEPA process will not be completed, at best, until late 2015.
Executive agencies can also simply implement the extremist environmental agenda on their own. This is how the Obama administration’s “war on coal” is being waged following the failure to pass the president’s “cap and trade” legislation even in the Democrat-controlled Senate. This January, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) set limits on how much carbon dioxide new coal-fired power plants are allowed to produce—limits that will require expensive and unproven technology, severely limiting the likelihood of new plants being built. This follows past regulation that will force the retirement of more than 30,000 megawatts of power capacity by the end of 2016. Later this year, the EPA plans to establish limits for already existing power plants, with devastating implications for coal-rich Western states such as Wyoming, which generates more coal annually than the next six coal-producing states combined. Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska points out that “89 percent of the coal electricity capacity that is due to go offline [due to regulation] was utilized as backup” to meet demand for energy during the harsh winter that just ended. Not only she and Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia, but also liberal Democratic Senator Al Franken of Minnesota, have worried that these EPA regulations will threaten the ability of America’s power grid to meet future demand.
According to the Congressional Research Service, from 2009 through 2013, oil and natural gas production on private land was up 61 percent and 33 percent, respectively; on federal lands, by contrast, oil production was down eleven percent and gas production was down 28 percent. This is no mere coincidence. The Monterey/Santos oil field in California is estimated to hold more than twice the oil of the Bakken oil field in North Dakota and the Eagle Ford oil field in west Texas combined, but its development is on hold because federal lands are involved.
Apparently wishing to slow production even further, former Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar—ignoring that hydraulic fracturing has been regulated successfully by states for 60 years—proposed new fracking regulations that will add $345 million in annual costs to Western energy development. Regulatory costs as a whole, it should be noted, are at a record high: Wayne Crews of the Competitive Enterprise Institute places the total costs of federal regulations in the U.S. in 2013 as greater than the GDPs of either Canada or Mexico.
Salazar’s successor, Sally Jewell, is not only pressing forward with redundant hydraulic fracturing rules, but is threatening the West with the use of President Obama’s power, under the Antiquities Act of 1906, to prevent economic activity with massive national-monument designations. This was a tactic of the War on the West that President Clinton raised to an art form—most famously announcing, in a speech set against the backdrop of the Grand Canyon in Arizona, the closure of 1.8 million acres to economic activity, including what might have become the world’s largest high-quality, low-sulfur coal mine in economically hard-pressed southern Utah.
In her most egregious move yet, Jewell signed off on a decision by the EPA to put a million acres of Wyoming land—including the entire town of Riverton, Wyoming, with a population of over 10,000—into the Wind River Indian Reservation, despite the indisputable historical fact that this land was ceded to the U.S. in a 1904 agreement between the United States and the Tribes, and in opposition to a unanimous 1998 U.S. Supreme Court ruling regarding a comparable situation in South Dakota.
It is difficult to exaggerate the quasi-religious zeal with which the War on the West is waged. Two years ago, a video surfaced of a training lecture on regulatory enforcement by the head of the EPA’s Region Six office, which oversees Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Texas. This senior administrator, who was appointed by President Obama in 2009, cited the Roman Empire as the inspiration for his mode of operation: “The Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean. They’d go into a little Turkish town somewhere, they’d find the first five guys they saw, and they’d crucify them. And then you know that town was really easy to manage for the next few years.” The same year he gave this talk, his office charged in an emergency order that a Fort Worth-based drilling company had contaminated groundwater in Texas’s Parker County through hydraulic fracturing. A year-and-a-half later the emergency order was withdrawn and the case was dismissed in a federal court, but only after a judge criticized the agency for seeking penalties without first investigating the truth of the charges. A commissioner on the Texas Railroad Commission, which regulates oil and gas drilling in the state, accused EPA’s Region Six office of “fear mongering [and] gross negligence.”
Recently the EPA issued new regulations to redefine “wetlands,” the term of art by which the agency determines the reach of the Clean Water Act. Under these regulations, a Wyoming man named Andy Johnson—a welder who owns an eight-acre farm—has been targeted because he and his wife built a stock pond on their property and brought in brook and brown trout, ducks, and geese. The EPA is threatening civil and criminal penalties—including a $75,000-a-day fine—because Johnson failed to receive permission for his pond from the Army Corps of Engineers. (His permit from the Wyoming State Engineer’s office is irrelevant, according to the EPA.) So far Johnson has defied an EPA order to hire a consultant to assess the environmental impact of his stock pond and to propose a restoration project to be completed within 60 days of EPA approval. “This goes a lot further than a pond,” he is quoted as saying. “It’s about a person’s rights. I have three little kids. I am not going to roll over and let [the EPA] tell me what I can do on my land.”
It is little wonder that there is talk of another Sagebrush Rebellion like that embraced by Ronald Reagan in the late 1970s. Westerners know they deserve better, and that they and their states can be better stewards of their land than federal bureaucrats.
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Rule by unelected unaccountable bureaucrats, instead of by local elected representatives.
That might be a plank for 2016, for the GOP. Local control.
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Good lord.
The idiots that are elevating this issue to some level of religious crusade are abysmally uninformed and driven by raw emotions and misinformation:
For many or maybe even most Americans, reports that a rancher in Clark County, Nevada, was at odds with federal land bureaucrats, that scores of federal lawyers were litigating against him, and that SWAT-garbed and heavily armed federal law-enforcement officers had surrounded his place might have come as a surprise. They might have been even more surprised, in the wake of this standoff—which ended short of deadly escalation thanks in part to negotiations by a local sheriff—to hear that over 50 elected officials from nine Western states had gathered in Utah to discuss a state takeover of a significant portion of federally owned land in the American West. But Westerners—especially rural Westerners who make a living on the federal lands that predominate beyond the hundredth meridian, by logging, mining, ranching, or developing energy resources—were not surprised at all.
Poor little Cliven Bundy.
As if all of that happened in a vacuum, with no background.
No amount of elected officials can stage a "takeover" of any portion of "federally-owned land" outside the existing laws and statutes.
That would be called a rebellion, and just as George Washington did in the case of the Whiskey Rebellion, Federal forces will respond with strength and constitutional authority.
In terms of the public land issue, Reagan blamed “a tiny minority opposed to economic growth” for locking up federal lands that hold “probably 70 percent of the potential oil in the United States,” and he vowed to support the use of federal lands to meet America’s energy, economic, and foreign policy needs. As former governor of California, he knew all too well that the federal government owns a third of the land that makes up the United States, the vast majority of this being in the West. Federal holdings include nearly a third of Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, and Washington; roughly half of Arizona, California, Oregon, and Wyoming; and two-thirds or more of Alaska, Idaho, Nevada, and Utah. By comparison, the three non-Western states with the most federal land are New Hampshire at 14 percent, Florida at 13 percent, and Michigan at ten percent.
As POTUS, it was Reagan who signed the Executive Order that put the BLM in charge of locking the grazing fees at 1985 level and charging the BLM with the task of managing those lands according to all existing laws and statutes.
So irrespective of the mental meme that this guy wishes to portray, this idea that Reagan would have somehow been simpatico with Bundy, HE IS WRONG.
No sitting American President, not even Reagan, will stand in support of a man who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of the government of the United States, the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of the State of Nevada, all existing laws and statutes regulating the use of public lands, and two Federal Court orders.
Conservatives would do well by maintaining their distance from Cliven Bundy.