Bundy stands by his 'better off' as slaves comments

[Luis Gonzalez]

Yes, correct but it made up a lot of speculation on prior while the Bundy Affair was going on.
The slavery angle can be broken into at least 3 parts though:

1.  Is the Federal plantation better than the pre Civil War?
2.  Is it better off to be born black in America or aborted before given a chance?
3.  Why do these stories seem to come up so serendipitously?

Answer one question honestly.

Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal slave over a rhetorical one?

(Edited for spelling and punctuation errors... we really NEED a smart phone app)

[EC]

It certainly has, Bigun!

And look who's come out of lurk mode to join in.....'faces' we haven't heard from in a dog's age.

IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites.  We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation.

Love this place!   

Me too. 

It's respect for each other. Sure, things can get a wee bit heated at times, but we all seem to get that there is a real live person on the other end of the message. Kind of unusual on forums.

[aligncare]

Bump

[olde north church]

Answer one question honestly.

Under what circumstances would you prefer being a literal Slavs over a rhetorical one

Under none really.  I don't have a slave mentality.  Is it because I'm an American and know none other.  It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure.  Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like.  None will put in prison.  Taxes, federal, state, local.  Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into.  If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?

[Bigun]

Under none really.  I don't have a slave mentality.  Is it because I'm an American and know none other.  It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure.  Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like.  None will put in prison.  Taxes, federal, state, local.  Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into.  If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free."
 
        Johann Goethe

[olde north church]

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free."
 
        Johann Goethe

Yup.

[evadR]

So, ya think "they" keep a file somewhere that says, IF this happens_______, release this_______?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Under none really.  I don't have a slave mentality.  Is it because I'm an American and know none other.  It's beyond my cope of understanding of what a life of slavery would be and I've given it some thought.
Think of some of the bullshit laws we are forced to endure.  Helmet laws, safety belt laws, township ordinances and the like.  None will put in prison.  Taxes, federal, state, local.  Bureaucracies and the rules.
That is a result of the life I was born into.  If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?

Exactly, and your response is what exposes the abject ignorance of Bundy's notion that the "Negro" may have been better off as slaves. No one in their right mind would ever make that statement about themselves, and the fact that he made it about the "Negro" is what exposes his racism. I don't see Bundy as a virulent racist espousing lynchings and a return to the days of Dixie long gone, but the fact that he can even hold that idea tells me that he sees the "Negro" as a whole, as a member of an inferior race that can't handle the burden of liberty.

Enduring laws that we find annoying or overtly burdensome does not translate into even rhetorical slavery. Those laws that we find necessary and proper are probably seen as annoying and overtly burdensome by others, that's the nature of our system of government... we all agree to live under a set of laws, even if we all do not agree with all the laws that we have to live under, so long as the Constitutional process was followed to get to those laws.

If we believe that the Constitutional process has not been properly followed, we have the right to take those laws to the Courts. That's why there are literally dozens of suits against the ACA running their way through the court system.

Here is the crux of your response:

If I were born in China or Cuba or Iran, what would I accept?

Therein lies the heart of what is so wrong about Bundy's remarks.

If you were born in China, Cuba or Iran, your ability to decide to extricate yourself from the sort of life that Bundy described, or even leave the country altogether and go seek better living conditions elsewhere  range from highly restricted to non-existent.

You're only a slave when you lack the ability to make decisions on your own over what course you wish your life to take.

The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have, and THAT is why it is ridiculous to say that they may be better off as slaves.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Yup.

Who is forcefully stopping anyone from getting up and changing the circumstances of their lives?

You are all making the liberal argument that blacks are so victimized by societal externalities that they cannot help themselves out of the gutters that they live in.

[Bigun]

The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have...

And many more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!

[Luis Gonzalez]

And many more would IF we had a government insisting that they get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!

So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.

[evadR]

And many more would IF we had a government working to help them get off of that porch instead of doing everything possible to make sure they don't ever do that!

I think that was the whole point of Bundy's statement. The federal government has grown too big and too intrusive.  It doesn't help people, it keeps them down.
I don't think he woke up one morning and decided "today I'll make a racist comment about Negroes".

[Bigun]

So, in your mind, the solution is MORE government action, not less.

Absolutely not! MUCH less government action is in order in fact!

The reason they stay on the plantation is that WE allow the government to give them much more than they could possibly earn with a real job!

THAT should not ever happen in a free country!

[Bigun]

I think that was the whole point of Bundy's statement. The federal government has grown too big and too intrusive.  It doesn't help people, it keeps them down.
I don't think he woke up one morning and decided "today I'll make a racist comment about Negroes".

I absolutely agree that is what he was TRYING to convey but he did a very poor job of it!

[musiclady]

It certainly has, Bigun!

And look who's come out of lurk mode to join in.....'faces' we haven't heard from in a dog's age.

IMO, it's a thread like this than sets us apart from TOS and other so-called right-wing forums and sites.  We can directly engage one another with differing views and for the most part maintain an engaging conversation.

Love this place!   

Me too!  It's downright refreshing!

btw, I heard a clip of Bundy on Glenn Beck this morning talking about Rosa Parks and MLK....

Maybe it's best not to have him interviewed anywhere.  He's not exactly able to explain himself clearly.

Just sayin'...........

[olde north church]

Exactly, and your response is what exposes the abject ignorance of Bundy's notion that the "Negro" may have been better off as slaves. No one in their right mind would ever make that statement about themselves, and the fact that he made it about the "Negro" is what exposes his racism. I don't see Bundy as a virulent racist espousing lynchings and a return to the days of Dixie long gone, but the fact that he can even hold that idea tells me that he sees the "Negro" as a whole, as a member of an inferior race that can't handle the burden of liberty.

Enduring laws that we find annoying or overtly burdensome does not translate into even rhetorical slavery. Those laws that we find necessary and proper are probably seen as annoying and overtly burdensome by others, that's the nature of our system of government... we all agree to live under a set of laws, even if we all do not agree with all the laws that we have to live under, so long as the Constitutional process was followed to get to those laws.

If we believe that the Constitutional process has not been properly followed, we have the right to take those laws to the Courts. That's why there are literally dozens of suits against the ACA running their way through the court system.

Here is the crux of your response:

Therein lies the heart of what is so wrong about Bundy's remarks.

If you were born in China, Cuba or Iran, your ability to decide to extricate yourself from the sort of life that Bundy described, or even leave the country altogether and go seek better living conditions elsewhere  range from highly restricted to non-existent.

You're only a slave when you lack the ability to make decisions on your own over what course you wish your life to take.

The people that Bundy saw on those porches have the ability to get up and out of there and go do something else. Many have, and THAT is why it is ridiculous to say that they may be better off as slaves.

My point regarding China and Iran, to a lesser degree Cuba, is people may think the systems there are just fine.  Perhaps there is no desire, among most people is born, live, die.  Why does everybody need to be happy.  I don't know.  I was born and raised here.
Think about why most people come here:
Religious persecution, political persecution, financial freedom, personal freedom.
I'm third generation American.  Still have family in various European countries, Australia and South America.  A variety of professions.  Not all of them felt the need to leave.  Some of them seem to be doing very well.  Maybe just the malcontents felt the need to get out of Dodge.

[Carling]

Me too!  It's downright refreshing!

btw, I heard a clip of Bundy on Glenn Beck this morning talking about Rosa Parks and MLK....

Maybe it's best not to have him interviewed anywhere.  He's not exactly able to explain himself clearly.

Just sayin'...........

He said that because people don't understand what he's saying about blacks, that MLK didn't do his job, to paraphrase. 

Run away, very fast, because this guy isn't somebody we small-federal government people should want being some sort of martyr.  He's off-message now, and it clearly isn't some trap by the NYT.  He's just not somebody who has the skills to be the leader of any sort of movement that will have mass appeal, IMO. 

[NavyCanDo]

Not somebody we should make a poster-child for the conservative cause.   Too many on the Right like Hannity are falling into the trap, and when Bundy goes off the reservation one  too many times, all of his backers  take the fall with him. 

[Howie66]

My point regarding China and Iran, to a lesser degree Cuba, is people may think the systems there are just fine.  Perhaps there is no desire, among most people is born, live, die.  Why does everybody need to be happy.  I don't know.  I was born and raised here.
Think about why most people come here:
Religious persecution, political persecution, financial freedom, personal freedom.
I'm third generation American.  Still have family in various European countries, Australia and South America.  A variety of professions.  Not all of them felt the need to leave.  Some of them seem to be doing very well.  Maybe just the malcontents felt the need to get out of Dodge.

If we could ONLY get our home-grown malcontents to leave our shores.

[olde north church]

Not somebody we should make a poster-child for the conservative cause.   Too many on the Right like Hannity are falling into the trap, and when Bundy goes off the reservation one  too many times, all of his backers  take the fall with him.

Do you remember what "Joe the Plumber's" crime against America was?

[mystery-ak]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653

'Maybe I sinned...maybe I don’t know what I actually said': Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy attempts befuddling apology
'Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,' the Nevada rancher told CNN on Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

BY Leslie Larson

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, April 25, 2014, 10:17 AM

 Cliven Bundy has his cowboy boot in his mouth following a befuddling attempt to apologize for his racist remarks.

“Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,” Bundy said Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

“I took this boot off so I wouldn’t put my foot in my mouth with the boot on,” he told CNN’s Chris Cuomo, suggesting he was ready to back down and strike a more conciliatory tone.

But that hope was short-lived as Bundy soon dived in to criticize people for being too sensitive.

“When you talk about prejudice … we don’t have freedom to say what we want.”



Rancher Cliven Bundy showed off his cowboy boot on Friday but still put his foot in his mouth.

“If those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done yet.”

Bundy’s comments, first reported Wednesday by the New York Times, alienated many conservative supporters — including Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz - who had jumped up to support the stubborn rancher for resisting the federal government's attempts to remove his cattle from public land.

Senate Majority Harry Reid, a Democrat from Bundy’s home state, called his constituent a "hateful racist."

Reid himself himself has been criticized for racial insensitivity for referring to Obama as a "light skinned" African American, "with no Negro dialect" during the 2008 presidential race, according to the campaign tell-all "Game Change."

[Howie66]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/cliven-bundy-attempts-befuddling-apology-article-1.1768653

'Maybe I sinned...maybe I don’t know what I actually said': Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy attempts befuddling apology
'Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,' the Nevada rancher told CNN on Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

BY Leslie Larson

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, April 25, 2014, 10:17 AM

 Cliven Bundy has his cowboy boot in his mouth following a befuddling attempt to apologize for his racist remarks.

“Maybe I sinned and maybe I need to ask forgiveness. Maybe I don’t know what I actually said,” Bundy said Friday, when asked to defend his opinion that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

“I took this boot off so I wouldn’t put my foot in my mouth with the boot on,” he told CNN’s Chris Cuomo, suggesting he was ready to back down and strike a more conciliatory tone.

But that hope was short-lived as Bundy soon dived in to criticize people for being too sensitive.

“When you talk about prejudice … we don’t have freedom to say what we want.”



Rancher Cliven Bundy showed off his cowboy boot on Friday but still put his foot in his mouth.

“If those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive then Martin Luther King hasn’t got his job done yet.”

Bundy’s comments, first reported Wednesday by the New York Times, alienated many conservative supporters — including Sens. Rand Paul and Ted Cruz - who had jumped up to support the stubborn rancher for resisting the federal government's attempts to remove his cattle from public land.

Senate Majority Harry Reid, a Democrat from Bundy’s home state, called his constituent a "hateful racist."

Reid himself himself has been criticized for racial insensitivity for referring to Obama as a "light skinned" African American, "with no Negro dialect" during the 2008 presidential race, according to the campaign tell-all "Game Change."

In the mean time, the Obama Regime is seriously contemplating making a 9,000 acre land grab in the State of Texas, right along the area bordering Oklahoma.

So let's all focus our attention on some old guy rancher who just expressed his opinions to some low down and underhanded member of the Obama Regime's Propaganda Arm, because that is really important, right?

[aligncare]

In the mean time, the Obama Regime is seriously contemplating making a 9,000 acre land grab in the State of Texas, right along the area bordering Oklahoma.

So let's all focus our attention on some old guy rancher who just expressed his opinions to some low down and underhanded member of the Obama Regime's Propaganda Arm, because that is really important, right?

 

The media holds up any shiny object to divert attention from the salient point. They are very good at that and sometimes even we on the right jump at the lure.

[mystery-ak]

NY Times Reported Bundy's Offensive Remarks 4 Days Later

[jmyrlefuller]

The media holds up any shiny object to divert attention from the salient point. They are very good at that and sometimes even we on the right jump at the lure.

Exactly. This is the Harry Reid Playbook to a T.

As I have said countless times, the issue here is not Cliven Bundy as a person. His comments (and by the way, I don't care who you are, you should ALWAYS plead the fifth on those kinds of questions whenever possible) don't change the central issue at hand: whether or not he should have the right to graze his cattle on that land, and whether or not the BLM should have taken the steps it tried to take to stop him.

As the old song goes... keep your eye on the sparrow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNWhVXcjV8