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Author Topic: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs  (Read 3506 times)

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Offline edpc

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2018, 01:58:59 am »
Quote from: Fantom on March 04, 2018, 01:22:28 am
Which is a very small % this adds to operating expenses.

I have been trying to find how much aluminum is used in ..say a 737.  Best data I've seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737  is 31 short tonne or 62,000 pounds.

If 70% is aluminum, more modern jets are far less. Than we come up with about 20 short ton rounding down. Metrisc tones of aluminum are trading on the market at under a dollar a pound, rounding up... say  https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=aluminum $2200.00 a metric ton. Not sure if that reflects the new market AD Trump.  :pondering:

Anyways, I come up with about $50,000 dollars of aluminum in a 737.  Trump added..at most another $5000.00 to that 51,000,000 - 81,000,000 dollar plane.


There’s aluminum and there’s aircraft aluminum.  Grades used in vehicles like boats, cars, and aircraft isn’t the same as a beverage can.  I’m betting the cost is much higher.
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2018, 02:31:28 am »
Quote from: edpc on March 04, 2018, 01:58:59 am

There’s aluminum and there’s aircraft aluminum.  Grades used in vehicles like boats, cars, and aircraft isn’t the same as a beverage can.  I’m betting the cost is much higher.

Ah, I was hoping you would bring that up.  888high58888

Certainly a cost difference 'Twixt base refined ingots and specialty stock. This is like the difference between pork bellies and bacon.

You are correct, the value added would be significant. Probably why modern craft use less than 40% of the stuff. I am not likely to look up such pricing. As I doubt it is commodity based.In effect.. the more you buy the cheaper that kind of thing will be.

However you bring up a good point. Sheet aluminum is Canada's major  aluminum export to the USA. Think airplane skins , with this tariff might get their attention? Perhaps Canada is given an exclusion from the aluminum tariff if they drop their trade barriers to our beef/food.

Lots of wheels within wheels. And personally, I am glad Trump is on our side instead of Hillary..selling our uranium for a $500,000 bribe..er speaking fee to Slick Whilie.

Getting back to aluminum. It all starts with the base commodity. Is aircraft aluminum a strategic resource? Should the USA keep such in house as much as possible?

Lots of questions one must ask oneself. However a 10% tariff in overall costs of a portion of material is not one that stresses me.
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Offline edpc

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2018, 02:38:46 am »
Quote from: Fantom on March 04, 2018, 02:31:28 am
Getting back to aluminum. It all starts with the base commodity. Is aircraft aluminum a strategic resource? Should the USA keep such in house as much as possible?


Yes, we should.  There are, however, finite sources of bauxite in the world.  We still have untapped deposits in AR, AL, and GA that can be used in a strategic emergency.  Same goes with energy.  In the meantime, if we use other cheap sources for consumables, I don’t see a problem with it.

I’d rather have it domestically if we really need it than rely on long supply lines in a national emergency.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 02:43:09 am by edpc »
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2018, 03:01:08 am »
Quote from: edpc on March 04, 2018, 02:38:46 am

Yes, we should.  There are, however, finite sources of bauxite in the world.  We still have untapped deposits in AR, AL, and GA that can be used in a strategic emergency.  Same goes with energy.  In the meantime, if we use other cheap sources for consumables, I don’t see a problem with it.

I’d rather have it domestically if we really need it than rely on long supply lines in a national emergency.

That was a position I held on oil.... twenty plus years ago.

But I thought we were now talking value added strategic resources? The capability to supply our industry , and military with the actual alloys(aluminum too) needed to actually build an aircraft or warship.

Not simply pork bellies.
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2018, 03:14:14 am »


Hey @edpc ... here is an interesting link..... Alibaba, China no less. https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/6061-t6-aircraft-grade-aluminum.html

Seems aircraft grade only adds 50% at most.  So that 50-90 million dollar 737... less than $10,000 dollar add by Trumps tariff.

If that is all it takes to keep American production.  :amen:


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Offline edpc

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2018, 03:16:41 am »
Quote from: Fantom on March 04, 2018, 03:01:08 am
That was a position I held on oil.... twenty plus years ago.

But I thought we were now talking value added strategic resources? The capability to supply our industry , and military with the actual alloys(aluminum too) needed to actually build an aircraft or warship.

Not simply pork bellies.


We’re probably talking around each other on that.  The raw aluminum material is the most important aspect of it, but you also need scandium and other elements, as well. Unfortunately, there are only a few places in the world where that is available in large quantities. Two of them happen to be strategic foes – China and Russia.
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2018, 03:23:15 am »
Quote from: edpc on March 04, 2018, 03:16:41 am

We’re probably talking around each other on that.  The raw aluminum material is the most important aspect of it, but you also need scandium and other elements, as well. Unfortunately, there are only a few places in the world where that is available in large quantities. Two of them happen to be strategic foes – China and Russia.

Interesting, yet scandium is not really used in much.

http://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium-scandium-alloys-future/

Nor is it a rare element, fairly common in fact.
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2018, 03:27:43 am »


Not meanin' to dog on you edpc. I appreciate broadening my knowledge base.... thank you!  :beer:

I have work tomorrow, so I bid you a good night my friend.
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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2018, 03:45:12 am »
Quote from: Fantom on March 04, 2018, 03:27:43 am

Not meanin' to dog on you edpc. I appreciate broadening my knowledge base.... thank you!  :beer:

I have work tomorrow, so I bid you a good night my friend.


No worries.  It’s a discussion.  It’s all good.  Scadnium is very common, but it’s not economically mined and processed unless it’s found in the right concentrations, which is rare.

Despite this fairly common occurrence, scandium rarely concentrates in nature.  It does not selectively combine with the common ore-forming anions, so time and geologic forces only rarely form scandium concentrations over 100 ppm. There is currently no dedicated single mine source and it estimated that only 15 tonnes of scandium are produced globally each year. 

***********************

Aircraft manufacturers are particularly interested in scandium alloyed aluminum materials. Aircraft designers believe use of Al-Sc alloys can reduce aircraft weights by 15%-20%.  In addition, the ability to employ weldable structures promises similar cost reduction potential.

http://www.scandiummining.com/s/scandium.asp

Work on Sunday?  Blasphemer.   :laugh:
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2018, 02:24:29 pm »
Those who say this will cost a million American jobs are exaggerating. 

Bush's steel tariff cost only about 200,000 American jobs over a year and a half. [Congressional committee hearing on  " "The Unintended Consequences of Increased Steel Tariffs on American Manufacturers"; July 23, 2002: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg81372/html/CHRG-107hhrg81372.htm ]

(Well, if the orange idiot keeps it in place longer, perhaps...but I don't know that will happen...)
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2018, 01:28:47 am »
Quote from: edpc on March 04, 2018, 03:45:12 am





Work on Sunday?  Blasphemer.   :laugh:

@edpc

Sunday really?  Feels like a Thursday to me!  :laugh:

Masons, like farmers ... harvest when the weather says harvest. Besides, my son is in college on Tuesday-Thrursday schedule this semester. So I adjust the workdays..... nice owning ones own small.. I mean real small business.

Just me and The Boy(he is 27 married), occasionally a laborer/hod carrier/mason tender or two as needed.
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Offline edpc

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2018, 01:37:28 am »
Quote from: Fantom on March 05, 2018, 01:28:47 am
@edpc

Sunday really?  Feels like a Thursday to me!  :laugh:

Masons, like farmers ... harvest when the weather says harvest. Besides, my son is in college on Tuesday-Thrursday schedule this semester. So I adjust the workdays..... nice owning ones own small.. I mean real small business.

Just me and The Boy(he is 27 married), occasionally a laborer/hod carrier/mason tender or two as needed.


I know what you mean.  I spent 6 years doing 24/7 on call work in hospitals.  One day or week would blend into the next.
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Offline Fantom

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Re: LET THEM EAT SOUP: Commerce Secretary Ross Holds Up Campbell's Soup Can To Defend Steel Tariffs
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2018, 01:46:27 am »
Quote from: edpc on March 05, 2018, 01:37:28 am

I know what you mean.  I spent 6 years doing 24/7 on call work in hospitals.  One day or week would blend into the next.

Funny, my son is working towards some degree and job in medical.  He does not like the cold and hot, the dust and wind and rain and mud. The life of a Mason... I do not know what is wrong with The Boy.  :pondering:

Oh well, I have done my duty, I have trained him. He has a trade. He is the sixth generation taught masonry ... father to son.

As for me, even my days off involve work... joys of running ones own business. I would not have it any other way.
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Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

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