Author Topic: Fla. shooting survivor pleads for gun control: ‘We are children, you guys are the adults’  (Read 11880 times)

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Offline jpsb

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It might be viewed differently if what you proposed would likely fix the problem, but it won't.  People already willing to break the law (murder, gun on school grounds, etc) are not going to be stopped by laws that only impact the law abiding.

Hillary and her gang of criminals are walking around free. We are no longer a nation of laws. Laws are
just for us little people.

Offline jpsb

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Of course I believe in rights.  Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact.   The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right.   There is no specific "right" to own a gun.  That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.   

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Offline thackney

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Of course I believe in rights.  Rights can consist of natural rights of the individual, or civil rights afforded by the constitutional documents of the social compact.   The right to defense of home and property is the natural, individual right.  There is no specific "right" to own a gun.  That's why, for example, many states prohibit minors and felons from owning guns.   

There is a specific, enumerated right to own a gun.  The right to keep arms.

Children before the age of majority have more limited rights and greater protections.  Is that really the legal route you want to use to claim the right doesn't exist?  And extending that to all other rights of the Constitution?

As for felons, their rights are removed under individual cases of due process.  Otherwise, we could never put one in prison.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Offline Jazzhead

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There is a specific, enumerated right to own a gun.  The right to keep arms.

Children before the age of majority have more limited rights and greater protections.  Is that really the legal route you want to use to claim the right doesn't exist?  And extending that to all other rights of the Constitution?

As for felons, their rights are removed under individual cases of due process.  Otherwise, we could never put one in prison.

Here's what I think is the correct answer, @thackney.  I understand, respectfully, that you will disagree.

The natural right is the right to self-defense, including that of home and property.   Justuce Scalia, I think, understood that, and that is why his landmark Heller decision held, for the first time in the history of our Republic,  that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms. 

Now I understand that the Heller decision was, of course, made in the context of the Second Amendment.   If you read the opinion,  you'll be astonished at the trouble Scalia had to go to, to reach that interpretation.  The Second Amendment is worded in a very peculiar way.   It is not worded like that other Amendments describing the rights of Americans.   It has a predicate clause about a well-regulated militia, and it  - uniquely for the Constitution, I believe - uses the word "infringed".

I don't think the Second Amendment addresses the natural right at all.   It talks of ensuring the resources (the men and arms) necessary for the defense of the Republic (the "free state").   I'll go out on a limb here - I think the Constitutional is as textually silent about the natural right of individual self defense as it is about the natural right of individual privacy, which is what undergirds the hated right of abortion.

I hail Scalia for discerning the missing piece of the Constitution -  that we have the natural right to defend ourselves as individuals,  and the government cannot us deny us that right.   I don't think the Second Amendment ever got us there.  I think the Second Amendment, on its face, is concerned with the collective defense, not individual self defense.   And because of that,  I do not for a minute believe it bars the registration, licensure  and insurance of firearms.   To the contrary,  I believe it anticipates it.   
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:40:55 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline truth_seeker

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Maybe it is time to bring back insane asylums and lock crazy people up again.
I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.

Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline INVAR

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The natural right is the right to self-defense, including that of home and property.   

That is an inalienable, insoluble and inherent right granted by God, not men.   The Second Amendment makes it clear that for a free state to be secure - a well regulated body of armed citizens, properly trained in the use of their own arms (which is what a militia is) the right of the PEOPLE, to keep and bear arms therefore MAY NOT be infringed.

Sadly - you continue to state that our Rights can be *reasonably* regulated, which turns inalienable Rights into privileges granted by government.  Which is what you are all about.

for the first time in the history of our Republic,  that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms. 

That is bullshit.  That ruling is not the 'first time in the history of the Republic' that it was understood that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms and to defend themselves, their homes and their nation when called upon to do so.  That truth was roundly understood in total by a people who never imagined their posterity would become so stupid and foolish into making the state their monarch  or that they would become wholly devoid of common sense.

The Second Amendment is worded in a very peculiar way.

No, wrong.   It is very plain.  Only people like you who seek to infringe, regulate and abolish that Amendment make statements that the wording is peculiar.  For 145 years, for the majority of our history - no one ever considered that the Second Amendment was worded 'peculiar'. It was not until the government decided to limit and infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms that clever arguments from lawyers began to supplant and convolute plain wording to fit into their redefinition for the purpose of regulating a right into a mere privilege.


I think the Second Amendment, on its face, is concerned with the collective defense, not individual self defense.   And because of that,  I do not for a minute believe it bars the registration, licensure  and insurance of firearms.   To the contrary,  I believe it anticipates it.   

The Constitution only anticipates the inevitable effort the State will make to abolish Rights and enslave a people to despotism and tyranny.  It is why the Constitution is a document that sets the parameters of what Government is permitted to do - and expressly defines what it may not touch and what limits are placed upon it.  It does not address what the people, the citizenry are limited or permitted to do.  It only addresses the constructs and operation of Government and explicitly details what it may and may not do.

It is only people like you who assert that the Constitution created and administers Rights and therefore the courts may interpret the plain language of the Constitution to mean whatever they say it means at any given moment at the behest of any particular lobbying group and ideology they are beholden to.

The Constitution sets the limits and reach of government, period.  That is why the words 'shall not be infringed' were placed there.  Government has no Constitutional authority to infringe upon, limit or regulate arms, or the possession and use of arms by the people.   In addressing what government may and may not do in order to head a free state, a citizenry disciplined in the use and maintenance of their own arms is necessary and therefore their right to keep and bear arms MAY NOT BE INFRINGED UPON BY THE GOVERNMENT. 

It is tyrant wannabes like you who tell us that our rights are not absolute and subject to whatever limits and restrictions the government deems necessary to put upon them.

Then you dress it up as Constitutional, declare the wording 'peculiar' and tell us that the courts can nullify and redefine what the Constitution itself plainly states outside of an Amendment, passed and ratified.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline LauraTXNM

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I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.

Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.

Do we want to spend the money?  Do we want to change the laws?  Do we have the collective will to fight that fight?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Do we want to spend the money?  Do we want to change the laws?  Do we have the collective will to fight that fight?

Have you an objection?  A preference?

Offline LauraTXNM

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I very much favor that. We have a growing homeless problem, here. Many bleeding heart apologists, claim some of them are "mentally ill," etc.

Well, we used to lock up the mentally ill, for their own good, to name one justification. A second is they get the help they need. A third is they are not running free, committing crimes, bothering law abiding taxpayers.

Hi there!  I don't know about where you live.  But here in Los Angeles a lot of homeless people ARE mentally ill.  Some of them talk to themselves, hear voices, etc.  Some of them drink or do drugs, sometimes to cope with the mental illness.  A lot are vets.  Our weather makes this city very attractive to people who live outside.  Many of the people I've met are kind of like hobos.

When I first moved here from NM, I lived in nutty Venice Beach.  There were homeless people there who were members of the community; they were largely alcoholics, mentally ill, and/or handicapped, and they interacted with other Venice residents. I got to know an older man named Sppon, who rode around in a wheelchair and always reeked of booze.  We sometimes talked about his kids in Oklahoma, whom he missed but didn't want to see.  One night I was walking my dog and was accosted by a tripping druggie; Spoon appeared from nowhere and distracted him while I left.  He probably saved my life.  When I moved from Venice to Hollywood, Spoon warned me that the homeless community there was different, more drug-addicted, violent, unpredictable.

Sorry so long-winded.  A lot of these guys have real problems; some of them are still real hobos who would probably ride the rails if they could.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline mountaineer

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Who knows whether we'll ever be told this young man's story. Was it mental illness, anger, resentment or just a desire for infamy?
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Have you an objection?  A preference?

I merely mean, that it's easy for us to call for action.   But we will need to seriously COMMIT to a solution.

I just read an article in the Miami Palm Beach Post about calls for more school security, adding better fencing, more police.  One of the interviewees said that each shooting incident brings this response; then people move on to other topics, and nothing really changes.  We will have to work hard to fix this.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline Bigun

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I merely mean, that it's easy for us to call for action.   But we will need to seriously COMMIT to a solution.

I just read an article in the Miami Palm Beach Post about calls for more school security, adding better fencing, more police.  One of the interviewees said that each shooting incident brings this response; then people move on to other topics, and nothing really changes.  We will have to work hard to fix this.

You are absolutely right @LauraTXNM and, if I haven't said so already,  Welcome to TBR!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline LauraTXNM

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Have you an objection?  A preference?

Sorry, preferences -- 

1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer.  That's the easy one.  Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.

2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately.  And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers?  More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill?  More hospitals and psychiatrists?  More interventions?  More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline mountaineer

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Certainly when a school child presents behaviors like cutting, harming animals and/or expressing a desire to hurt others, there needs to be some sort of intervention. I fear, however, that the minute a school official tries to do something, the offended helicoptering parents will swoop into his office with lawyer in tow. After the threats to sue for defamation and myriad other torts, the chastened principal will be limited to telling the kid's teachers to be careful around Junior -  and good luck.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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You are absolutely right @LauraTXNM and, if I haven't said so already,  Welcome to TBR!

Thank you!  I'm really hopeful that maybe this tragedy will help us start to seriously look at these issues. But it needs to come from us citizens, not Congress.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline Bigun

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Thank you!  I'm really hopeful that maybe this tragedy will help us start to seriously look at these issues. But it needs to come from us citizens, not Congress.

We already know what the answer is we just need to find the will to do it.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Sorry, preferences -- 

1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer.  That's the easy one.  Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.

2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately.  And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers?  More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill?  More hospitals and psychiatrists?  More interventions?  More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?

 :thumbsup:

Offline INVAR

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Who knows whether we'll ever be told this young man's story. Was it mental illness, anger, resentment or just a desire for infamy?

What does it really matter?  The deed is done.  The perp chose a soft target in a gun-free zone where few to none had any ability to defend themselves.

We live in a society that has tossed out God and foundational biblical faith and adherence for a newfound secular morality that satisfies the flesh and fosters irresponsibility.  We no longer teach our kids a biblical morality that maintained a common foundation to undergird a civil society.    Today, we no longer recognize real sin or evil - while declaring what once sustained us as a society to be sin and evil.   So now, when something like this happens - everyone screams 'why???!!!'  Was it mental illness?  Did the guns possess him to do it?  Is the availability of guns making it easy to kill innocents?  Should the Second Amendment and selfishness be blamed for the fact this nut job goes and kills a bunch of unarmed kids in a school he once went to?

I see the reasons 'why' clearly.  God's hedge of protection is no longer there, because we as a people have spit in His face in order to follow our own golden calves that we say are God.  He is forbidden to be mentioned or prayed to in school.  Society has rejected Him for a god that soothes modern morality.  So why would the True God be around to protect a people who have discarded Him?  We are suffering the natural consequences of a society going it's own way. 

So now we all struggle to discover the cause and the reasons this evil was done in some kind of silly therapeutic effort of feelgoodism to prevent future evil from happening in a society that embraces other evils as righteousness.  Reminds me of what Isaiah warned of a similar people who liked to parade their wickedness as righteousness:

And I will make petulant children their princes,
and infants shall rule over them.
And the people will oppress one another,
every one his fellow
and every one his neighbor;
the youth will be insolent to the elder,
and despise the honorable.
- Isaiah 3:4-5


I just have to laugh at all the striving for wind here.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline LauraTXNM

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Certainly when a school child presents behaviors like cutting, harming animals and/or expressing a desire to hurt others, there needs to be some sort of intervention. I fear, however, that the minute a school official tries to do something, the offended helicoptering parents will swoop into his office with lawyer in tow. After the threats to sue for defamation and myriad other torts, the chastened principal will be limited to telling the kid's teachers to be careful around Junior -  and good luck.

Here’s a hypothetical. I have a 13-year-old son who’s been acting out, becoming increasingly aggressive.  I find out he’s injuring or killing animals.  What do I do?  Do I call the police?

If I’m lucky, we have money to get him help.  And if he has to be committed, we can do it in a “nice” place until he’s 18.  Hopefully by then he’ll be “better”.

If I don’t have money to get him help, I still love him and want to get him help.  But do I want him thrown into a hellhole until he’s 18?  Do we have a system with places to actually help these kids?
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline txradioguy

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Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general  because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.

One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."

So, if they're conceding that their 150 years of trying to do something constitute "doing nothing," I agree with them, as far as outcome.

Which means they're admitting their ignorance-inspired efforts have been worthless.

In which case, isn't it time they stepped aside, and let the doctor work?  Rather than insisting on power crystals and holy water, and burning garlic in sacrifice to the gods, or whatever they're absolutely positive will fix the problem this time?

And since they come from a background of ignorance and superstition, they're almost certainly going to be outraged when the professional tells them, "Your myths are irrelevant, accomplish nothing, and often make things worse."  But whether or not they're outraged, that's the fact. And their own admission that their 150 years of effort constitute "Doing nothing" is proof. They have no idea what they're talking about, but want their claims validated.

Well, that's not going to happen.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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We already know what the answer is we just need to find the will to do it.

I think you’re right.   But as AMERICANS, we have to be willing to affect the rights of individuals, even if they happen to be in groups we like and respect.  (Focusing on the mental illness angle.). And do we want to spend more money on a whole category of Social Services?  Because that’s where a lot of this falls. 
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy

Without trying to further hijack the thread, this is an example of why I am against nation reciprocity on conceal carry laws.

A federal government that is forcing New York to accept Texas permits is the same feds that will require Texas to license and insure all guns because California decided to do so.

@thackney that's an excellent point that those of us who believe in and exercise the RTKBA on a daily basis need to seriously consider.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Hi there!  I don't know about where you live.  But here in Los Angeles a lot of homeless people ARE mentally ill.  Some of them talk to themselves, hear voices, etc.  Some of them drink or do drugs, sometimes to cope with the mental illness.  A lot are vets.  Our weather makes this city very attractive to people who live outside.  Many of the people I've met are kind of like hobos.

When I first moved here from NM, I lived in nutty Venice Beach.  There were homeless people there who were members of the community; they were largely alcoholics, mentally ill, and/or handicapped, and they interacted with other Venice residents. I got to know an older man named Sppon, who rode around in a wheelchair and always reeked of booze.  We sometimes talked about his kids in Oklahoma, whom he missed but didn't want to see.  One night I was walking my dog and was accosted by a tripping druggie; Spoon appeared from nowhere and distracted him while I left.  He probably saved my life.  When I moved from Venice to Hollywood, Spoon warned me that the homeless community there was different, more drug-addicted, violent, unpredictable.

Sorry so long-winded.  A lot of these guys have real problems; some of them are still real hobos who would probably ride the rails if they could.

1. I am a vet.
2. I have over 24 years sobriety, and attend AA regularly.
3. The homeless/mentally ill are mainly mentally ill from alcohol/drug use.
4. The homeless in my town, don't go to AA.
5.  A survey of over 1,000 homeless was conducted recently at the Santa Ana "encampment." Asked the question about if help were offered to them, OVER 90 PERCENT stated they didn't want help, liked their independent lifestyle as is. (extensive coverage in OC Register)
6. Since authorities now mainstream them, neighborhoods experience more crime. People like me observe for the first time in decades, house and car break-ins. This is NOT Venice. This is Orange County.
7. I have lost sympathy. Reality is different than bleeding heart liberal coddling.
8. A few months ago, one stalked me 3 times, to falsely accuse me of taking pictures of his camper site. I reported him to police, and to park ranger--WHO were not as interested, as I felt they should be.
9. Most of my neighbors are outraged.
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Offline roamer_1

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1) All school campuses should have only one entry point always staffed by an armed officer.  That's the easy one.  Maybe only a staff parking lot, secured and locked -- no student parking.


Wrong direction. MORE useless security...
When I was in high school, maybe just 35 years ago,  There was no security at the school, no fences, open campus, pickups with guns in the racks in the parking lot. Somehow we managed to mae it through without anyone shooting anyone.

You can impose more and more restrictions. You can make our schools into prisons. You can loose a federal superstate to burrow into every aspect of our lives, and rule with a tyrannical hand...

It ain't gonna change a damned thing.
 At some point, you will have to admit that our way has been lost, and we need to go back to what actually works.


Quote
2) Mental illness -- I'm afraid we need more of everything, unfortunately.  And we're negotiating a very fine line -- do we want more/better Child Protective Service caseworkers?  More cops better trained to deal with the mentally ill?  More hospitals and psychiatrists?  More interventions?  More tracking of taking medications, mental treatments, purchasing weapons?

Very same problem. Very same solution.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:00:27 pm by roamer_1 »