Fla. shooting survivor pleads for gun control: ‘We are children, you guys are the adults’

[LauraTXNM]

Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general  because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.

One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."

So, if they're conceding that their 150 years of trying to do something constitute "doing nothing," I agree with them, as far as outcome.

Which means they're admitting their ignorance-inspired efforts have been worthless.

In which case, isn't it time they stepped aside, and let the doctor work?  Rather than insisting on power crystals and holy water, and burning garlic in sacrifice to the gods, or whatever they're absolutely positive will fix the problem this time?

And since they come from a background of ignorance and superstition, they're almost certainly going to be outraged when the professional tells them, "Your myths are irrelevant, accomplish nothing, and often make things worse."  But whether or not they're outraged, that's the fact. And their own admission that their 150 years of effort constitute "Doing nothing" is proof. They have no idea what they're talking about, but want their claims validated.

Well, that's not going to happen.

Hmmm.  I don’t think of myself as a gun grabber.  And I think we’re going to have to find a uniquely AMERICAN solution to this problem that doesn’t rely on taking away all guns.  So we have to convince liberals like me to give that up. 

But instead we’re going to have to find a solution that involves more resources for mental illness research and treatment, tracking of medications/treatment, and increase policing, social services, and laws around it.  Background checks will have to be even more detailed.  Some people will be denied buying guns.  Some people may have to be involuntarily committed.  A few people who demonstrate serious mental illness may lose their guns.  Conservatives are going to have to accept that side of it. 

No system is perfect.   A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people.  As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR. 

[LauraTXNM]

What does it really matter?  The deed is done.  The perp chose a soft target in a gun-free zone where few to none had any ability to defend themselves.

So here’s a question.  Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?

[roamer_1]

So here’s a question.  Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?

DUH.

[txradioguy]

Hmmm.  I don’t think of myself as a gun grabber.  And I think we’re going to have to find a uniquely AMERICAN solution to this problem that doesn’t rely on taking away all guns.  So we have to convince liberals like me to give that up. 

But instead we’re going to have to find a solution that involves more resources for mental illness research and treatment, tracking of medications/treatment, and increase policing, social services, and laws around it.  Background checks will have to be even more detailed.  Some people will be denied buying guns.  Some people may have to be involuntarily committed.  A few people who demonstrate serious mental illness may lose their guns.  Conservatives are going to have to accept that side of it. 

No system is perfect.   A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people.  As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR.

The solutions isn't more legislation.

The problem isn't the guns.

These isn't any "sensible legislation" that will prevent another mass shooting.

It has to do with culture...being handcuffed by PC and a mindset that blames everything and everyone but the perp in situations like this.

It has to do with law enforcement not being able to effectively do their job and a fatal belief that punishing law abiding citizens with more and more restrictions on an enumerated Constitutional right will somehow make criminals stop committing violent acts.

But one thing is certain...more regulation and yet another law won't fix the problem. 

[LauraTXNM]

1. I am a vet.
2. I have over 24 years sobriety, and attend AA regularly.
3. The homeless/mentally ill are mainly mentally ill from alcohol/drug use.
4. The homeless in my town, don't go to AA.
5.  A survey of over 1,000 homeless was conducted recently at the Santa Ana "encampment." Asked the question about if help were offered to them, OVER 90 PERCENT stated they didn't want help, liked their independent lifestyle as is. (extensive coverage in OC Register)
6. Since authorities now mainstream them, neighborhoods experience more crime. People like me observe for the first time in decades, house and car break-ins. This is NOT Venice. This is Orange County.
7. I have lost sympathy. Reality is different than bleeding heart liberal coddling.
8. A few months ago, one stalked me 3 times, to falsely accuse me of taking pictures of his camper site. I reported him to police, and to park ranger--WHO were not as interested, as I felt they should be.
9. Most of my neighbors are outraged.

Everything you said totally makes sense. What’s happening in Santa Ana is a huge example of a large problem.  I know it’s worse in places with better weather, and I’m not sure what will make it better.  The only place I know to start is with the homeless families and the few people who actively want help.  The rest brings up the whole issue of drugs, drug abuse, legalization, etc.  The one thing I do know, is that some mentally ill people use drugs to “self-medicate”, so the categories overlap. 

Didn’t the judge in Santa Ana tell the police they had to find housing for all those people?  Where on earth are they sending them?  What do the people in Santa Ana want to do about the situation?

[INVAR]

Here’s a hypothetical. I have a 13-year-old son who’s been acting out, becoming increasingly aggressive.  I find out he’s injuring or killing animals.  What do I do?  Do I call the police?....Do we have a system with places to actually help these kids?

We did at one time.  It was called The Family.

A lot of issues we are now confronted with are consequences of a culture that has discarded biblical and foundational morality for a secular/humanist morality.  As a result we have a majority of kids growing up with no father in the home, and we have been indoctrinated to accept and celebrate that.

Children learn their roles and their responsibilities in life from the father - NOT the mother.  NOT from school.

In your hypothetical of a wayward 13 year-old, in days of old, if there was no Dad at home, the extended family - such as an uncle or cousin would 'learn him some manners'.  If that failed, military academies or other structured learning facilities were optioned.  If the child was truly mentally imbalanced and proved to be a danger to himself and others - that was what institutions were for.

But we do not do any of that anymore.  Discipline and Punishment is something even parents are unwilling or have been shamed into refraining from.  Many parents are totally disconnected from their children, having left the upbringing of them to public schools.  No God, no morality, no father in the home - consequences result. 

We are just beginning to really reap the fruits we have sown for ourselves as a society.

So here’s a question.  Which would be better, a school with metal detectors and two armed security guards, or a school that permits concealed carry?

How about a school that opens with prayer, teaches rules of morality from the bible and has a staff of armed teachers with proficiency skills and a big fat sign out front to announce the fact that their staff is armed and is trained to shoot to kill anyone who poses a threat to their charges?

That way you address where our actual safety and security comes from, you train up a child in the way they should go - and you have the ability to deal with the consequences of a society that has produced mass murdering cretins without a shred of understanding of right or wrong.

[LauraTXNM]

Its really hard to "have a discussion" about gun control with our resident gun grabbers and gun grabbers in general  because they don't need a discussion. They need an education. And at the end of the day they don't want a discussion or education. They want to dictate, from ignorance and fear.

One of the common refrains recently has been, "You gun nuts need to come up with something, because doing nothing is no longer an option."

PS Whoever does come up with a solution is going to be a hero and probably a martyr.

[Bigun]

I think you’re right.   But as AMERICANS, we have to be willing to affect the rights of individuals, even if they happen to be in groups we like and respect.  (Focusing on the mental illness angle.). And do we want to spend more money on a whole category of Social Services?  Because that’s where a lot of this falls.

Now you are talking about something entirely different than what I thought you were.  I'm talking about how to prevent tragedies at schools regardless of what the motivations of those who might want to perpetrate them might be.  Focused on that alone.

[LauraTXNM]

In your hypothetical of a wayward 13 year-old, in days of old, if there was no Dad at home, the extended family - such as an uncle or cousin would 'learn him some manners'.  If that failed, military academies or other structured learning facilities were optioned.  If the child was truly mentally imbalanced and proved to be a danger to himself and others - that was what institutions were for.

Ok, we’re in a morally bankrupt society.  So for dealing with the dangerous mentally ill, we need to create more institutions and also empower police and social services to step in when parents won’t or can’t?

[INVAR]

Ok, we’re in a morally bankrupt society.  So for dealing with the dangerous mentally ill, we need to create more institutions and also empower police and social services to step in when parents won’t or can’t?

"As society becomes more corrupt and vicious - they will have more need of masters" - Benjamin Franklin

Liberty and freedom cannot exist in a morally bankrupt society.  That is the entire point.

You can establish an entirely Orwellian Police State, and it will not keep you or anyone else safe, except for those who rule you.

[LauraTXNM]

DUH.

So then the shooter could still come in and get some shots off before an armed adult found and killed him?  I’m honestly not sure which side is better.   What if you have a school with only five teachers who want to carry?   How many people does a shooter kill before an armed adult gets there?   

[LauraTXNM]

Now you are talking about something entirely different than what I thought you were.  I'm talking about how to prevent tragedies at schools regardless of what the motivations of those who might want to perpetrate them might be.  Focused on that alone.

I think we agree on the school security angle.  But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats.   Does that make sense?

[LauraTXNM]

"As society becomes more corrupt and vicious - they will have more need of masters" - Benjamin Franklin

Liberty and freedom cannot exist in a morally bankrupt society.  That is the entire point.

You can establish an entirely Orwellian Police State, and it will not keep you or anyone else safe, except for those who rule you.

But then we can’t have liberty.   Since we can’t force everyone to be moral.

[roamer_1]

So then the shooter could still come in and get some shots off before an armed adult found and killed him?  I’m honestly not sure which side is better.   What if you have a school with only five teachers who want to carry?   How many people does a shooter kill before an armed adult gets there?

This could not occur at our local high school. Sure somebody might go off... but there's a gun in every pickup truck out in the parking lot, and I would dare say that there's quite a few good ol boys packing a boot gun, and every redneck boy there is is packing at least a big folding knife as a matter of course.

Who is talking about only armed adults?

[roamer_1]

I think we agree on the school security angle.  But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats.   Does that make sense?

No. Denying the right of my kid to protect himself is your primary failure.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to the bully is what allows bullies to exist.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to a shooter is what allows the shooter to exist.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for tyranny to legislate till good men can do nothing.

[LauraTXNM]

This could not occur at our local high school. Sure somebody might go off... but there's a gun in every pickup truck out in the parking lot, and I would dare say that there's quite a few good ol boys packing a boot gun, and every redneck boy there is is packing at least a big folding knife as a matter of course.

Who is talking about only armed adults?

Ok, I understand kids having guns in lockers for drill practice after school or in their cars for hunting, etc., but I can’t agree with students carrying around guns at school.  I’m assuming you only mean in high school, not middle school, right?

[LauraTXNM]

No. Denying the right of my kid to protect himself is your primary failure.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to the bully is what allows bullies to exist.
Preventing the good kid from standing up to a shooter is what allows the shooter to exist.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for tyranny to legislate till good men can do nothing.

When a kid is dangerously mentally ill, that goes beyond being a bully.  I don’t think middle schoolers can deal with a mentally ill shooter.

[roamer_1]

Ok, I understand kids having guns in lockers for drill practice after school or in their cars for hunting, etc., but I can’t agree with students carrying around guns at school.  I’m assuming you only mean in high school, not middle school, right?

Depends on the kid, I guess.
I was packin the whole dang time. Who did that hurt?

[roamer_1]

When a kid is dangerously mentally ill, that goes beyond being a bully.  I don’t think middle schoolers can deal with a mentally ill shooter.

An absurd position, as the other kids are the target, and there are no where near enough teachers or adults to effect the matter.

It is the same ol thing - this shit is over in seconds... minutes. Authority NEVER arrives in time to do anything but bring the body bags.

What you are doing, in effect, is denying my kid his right to self defense. And if there is no one else to defend him, I would assert that his own defense is the only defense he has.

For that reason I told my sons to ignore weapons laws.
For that reason I bought both my daughters a switchblade knife to carry at all times.

[LauraTXNM]

Depends on the kid, I guess.
I was packin the whole dang time. Who did that hurt?

Nobody, because you weren’t nuts ;).  I assume ;).

[LauraTXNM]

An absurd position, as the other kids are the target, and there are no where near enough teachers or adults to effect the matter.

It is the same ol thing - this shit is over in seconds... minutes. Authority NEVER arrives in time to do anything but bring the body bags.

What you are doing, in effect, is denying my kid his right to self defense. And if there is no one else to defend him, I would assert that his own defense is the only defense he has.

For that reason I told my sons to ignore weapons laws.
For that reason I bought both my daughters a switchblade knife to carry at all times.

Roamer, would you want a twelve-year-old packing at school?  What is your lower age limit on carrying at school?

[roamer_1]

Nobody, because you weren’t nuts ;).  I assume ;).

And if someone DID go nuts?
I could bark a squirrel long before middle school. I could dot a gopher right in his eye.
 Knowing me then, my britches would be full of mud, but I would stand a fair chance of walking away.
And a helluva lot better chance than without.

[INVAR]

But then we can’t have liberty.   Since we can’t force everyone to be moral.

No.  We cannot have liberty. 

Liberty requires that the people who live by it, are self-governed according to biblical morality - and therefore have little to no need for the power of the state to impose law and order.

A lawless people must be ruled by the power of the state to keep a semblance of law and order - and when a lawless people choose lawless leaders, liberty is expunged and dies - and tyranny replaces it.

[Bigun]

I think we agree on the school security angle.  But re school security WITHIN the school, we’re going to have to make sure schools have the backing of law enforcement, social/medical services, and the legal system to deal with kids who are threats.   Does that make sense?

Of course it does.

[thackney]

...No system is perfect.   A few mentally ill people will still get guns and kill people.  As AMERICANS we will have to accept a very small error rate in order to deal with this problem and still retain our BoR.

I think it is a huge mistake to focus on the guns and think that can keep people safe from those who have chosen to kill and injure large numbers of innocent.

Restricting the guns will make more people unable to defend themselves.

And we have several demonstrations of recent mass murder without using a gun.  We need to learn how to stop those that will kill others.  We need to learn to not tolerate insane behavior because it might hurt their feelings.