Poll: 76 percent of voters say 'Dreamers' should be allowed to stay

[starstruck]

My ancestry is 100 percent Heinz 57 American Mutt.   That is all I need to know.   You all want to trace your roots back to some cornhole poker in Mesopotamia.   Have at it.

My ancestors came here because life sucked bigly where they were from. Things may have changed in their country since, but I'm not going to wax nostalgic for the country of my forbears.

[Smokin Joe]

You couldn't be more wrong.  Check out the Cato Institute article linked above.   The DACA enrollees are willing and able to work hard, and contribute lawfully to the community just as you do.   And they don't even qualify for the welfare programs that you do.

You did not, nor did Cato, factor in the economic costs of Americans who are displaced from the workforce. If you had compassion for people whose lives are disrupted, marriages fail, lose their life savings, investment in homes, etc. to people who should never have been here, you might view the issue differently.

 

[Smokin Joe]

They are at no moral fault.   There are here because of the "sins" of their parents, and in many cases have become cultural Americans,  responsible, English-speaking and hard-working.

Yes,  I advocate compassion towards these folks.  The DACA requires they continue their education or serve in the military,  and otherwise be a credit to their communities.

Yes,  Obama should not have addressed this by means of an executive order.   Congress needs to act, and President Trump is giving them six months to do so.

AFAIK, there was no executive order, merely a pronouncement. Without so much as a numbered order, this amounts to the King giving an edict. That just won't fly in America, and we've fought wars to keep it that way.

[Smokin Joe]

The Pubs are making it real clear that there is no point in supporting them. All they tell us are lies. They just advance the leftist agenda a little slower.

It has been thus through multiple election cycles.

[bilo]

It has been thus through multiple election cycles.

You're right, but with the Tea Party revolution after obamacare was passed I held out hope that the Pubs would do what they said they would do. They didn't. If I continue supporting them all I'm doing is making a fool of myself.

One thing I found in business that has always worked well for me was to only do business or get advise from people with integrity. I always figure I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but if I'm dealing with someone who is not a liar and a cheat things will work out. The Pubs have proven themselves to be liars and cheats.

[Smokin Joe]

You're right, but with the Tea Party revolution after obamacare was passed I held out hope that the Pubs would do what they said they would do. They didn't. If I continue supporting them all I'm doing is making a fool of myself.

One thing I found in business that has always worked well for me was to only do business or get advise from people with integrity. I always figure I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but if I'm dealing with someone who is not a liar and a cheat things will work out. The Pubs have proven themselves to be liars and cheats.

I hoped, but when people high up in the Party were trying to co-opt the TEA party movement, I was skeptical. In the end, Beltway Fever did its usual trick and most of them forgot their promises before they were sworn in.

I have had the same experience in business. I won't work for someone not known to pay. I won't work with liars or thieves, and if that means I stay home I'll find another way to pay the bills. First, I don't want to be associated with people who use questionable business practices. Second, If I can't hammer out a deal on a piece of scratch paper, drop e-mails back and forth and seal it with a handshake, and expect everyone will hold up their end of the bargain, well, that isn't right. A man's still only as good as his word, and with me, reputation means a lot.

[Jazzhead]

You did not, nor did Cato, factor in the economic costs of Americans who are displaced from the workforce. If you had compassion for people whose lives are disrupted, marriages fail, lose their life savings, investment in homes, etc. to people who should never have been here, you might view the issue differently.

Economic growth puts the lie to your vision of helpless Americans unable to compete in a zero sum game.  This isn't about folks having to compete with an underground economy.   The DACA enrollees weren't handed jobs - they earned them, by displaying qualifications that employers found attractive, and earning the same wages and benefits as anyone else.  Give 'em credit - they exhibit the drive and ambition of immigrants.   

What you exhibit is fear of fair competition.   If that's what conservatism has become, then something's really, really wrong.   

[Smokin Joe]

Economic growth puts the lie to your vision of helpless Americans unable to compete in a zero sum game.  This isn't about folks having to compete with an underground economy.   The DACA enrollees weren't handed jobs - they earned them, by displaying qualifications that employers found attractive, and earning the same wages and benefits as anyone else.  Give 'em credit - they exhibit the drive and ambition of immigrants.   

What you exhibit is fear of fair competition.   If that's what conservatism has become, then something's really, really wrong.

No, all else equal, brown trumps white. One more "diversity" checkbox.

[Jazzhead]

No, all else equal, brown trumps white. One more "diversity" checkbox.

Oh so it's about race?   Immigration was okay when your grandparents did it?

Look, no one's saying there doesn't need to be immigration reform.  It's essential.   But the political compromise needed to achieve it isn't forthcoming, and I fear it may be the result of racial politics.   

[Oceander]

If the title is correct, then it should be a piece of cake for Congress to properly change the immigration laws to let them legally stay. 

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Give'em a fluffy name like that and of course they'll treat them like lost puppies. No, we can't keep them, and if they were here illegally as kids (stealing resources from our schools that could have gone to our kids) that means their parents were here illegally too. Why not send them all back together?!

Instead, the Obama solution was to accept bribes.

What Obama really did was to not uphold the laws of this country, as he swore to do.  For that reason, impeachment and removal were required.  Since Congress chose not to do so, they also did not uphold the laws of this country.

We are dealing with two lawless branches of Government.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

The Globalists sure have gotten alot of mileage out of the "but what about the lil' children" routine.

They certainly do not do that when it comes to abortion do they?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

100% of that 76% don't have a G-damned clue what that is costing them.

are you serious?  45% of them pay nothing anyway, so why would they care? 

45 percent of Americans pay no federal income tax  http://nypost.com/2016/02/24/45-percent-of-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax/

[Smokin Joe]

Oh so it's about race?   Immigration was okay when your grandparents did it?

No It is about the law.

Grandparents? My people had been here for over three hundred years when my grandparents were born, and my wife's people had been here for thousands of years. Neither would cotton to being invaded by people from a foreign power. My ancestors bought their land from both the Nanticoke and Powhatan Tribes and ended a war. My Wife's people kicked the Sioux out onto the Plains. You don't know crap.

Look, no one's saying there doesn't need to be immigration reform.  It's essential.   But the political compromise needed to achieve it isn't forthcoming, and I fear it may be the result of racial politics.

What race is Mexican? Hispanic? Illegal? 

Bullshit.
The "brown trumps white/diversity checkmark" comment is a reality of hiring practices when all else is equal.
I didn't create that "level playing field " listing at 30 degrees to port, I just have to deal with the reality of it.
But you know what your DREAMers don't have? CITIZENSHIP. They aren't here legally.
Why are you all for people who break our laws, and so dead set against the people who live by them?

Are you a Communist, or just an Open Borders RINO?

And there is no effing way all 800,000 are doing equal work for equal pay. 

[IsailedawayfromFR]

These aren't illegals working in the underground economy; they are above-board employees who've earned their jobs and their salaries based on merit.   They haven't "taken jobs" that could have gone to others; they've earned them, fair and square.  And they pay taxes - even though they don't qualify for many benefit programs.   

.

what a complete, unabashed whitewashing attempt.

1. they were illegally here, which means you lied.

2. they were above board employees - really, you mean someone who comes here to steal jobs from Americans, almost always being paid cash are getting there based on merit - another lie that has nt basis on fact

3. they haven't taken jobs from Americans  - how stupid can that statement be?  who do you think would have had that job if not being stolen by someone who should not be here? are you naive enough to think it would just be unfilled?

4. paying taxes - cash transactions are always paying fed income taxes, medicare taxes and into SS when there is not ssn?  You are stupid to even write that.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You did not, nor did Cato, factor in the economic costs of Americans who are displaced from the workforce. If you had compassion for people whose lives are disrupted, marriages fail, lose their life savings, investment in homes, etc. to people who should never have been here, you might view the issue differently.

being a liberal means one never has to be accountable to the consequences of his actions.  It is too convenient just to say they had good intentions, so results do not count.

[bilo]

I hoped, but when people high up in the Party were trying to co-opt the TEA party movement, I was skeptical. In the end, Beltway Fever did its usual trick and most of them forgot their promises before they were sworn in.

I have had the same experience in business. I won't work for someone not known to pay. I won't work with liars or thieves, and if that means I stay home I'll find another way to pay the bills. First, I don't want to be associated with people who use questionable business practices. Second, If I can't hammer out a deal on a piece of scratch paper, drop e-mails back and forth and seal it with a handshake, and expect everyone will hold up their end of the bargain, well, that isn't right. A man's still only as good as his word, and with me, reputation means a lot.

We see things similarly. The Pubs have chosen to be  the guys you can't trust. I still support a few who have held true to what they said they believed, but they are so few it's depressing.

The sell out on DACA is just one more example. Everyone is in a rush to say anyone who won't protect the "dreamers" is a bad guy. No one cares that there is a long term consequence to allowing illegal immigration and then periodically giving all these illegals amnesty.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I'm glad @Jazzhead is here.  He may be liberal on a lot of social issues but he presents a different viewpoint and does it without hate or profanity.

You might just read up on some of his posts,  to see the sweet nature of him.

He is likely the record-holder for threads getting shut down due to his sweet nature. 

even the Mod is aware of his cheery attitude on life. http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276030.msg1422454.html#msg1422454

[Jazzhead]

No It is about the law.

Don't be so craven.   You're the one who raised the issue of race, not me:

No, all else equal, brown trumps white. One more "diversity" checkbox.

 The DACA enrollees aren't taking jobs from Americans, any more than you're taking a job from an American.   They're no longer underground, they're competing on a level playing field for legal jobs, and earning them on merit. 

Yes, the law is an issue -  their status derives from a likely unconstitutional executive order, and Congress needs to codify their status.   And that decision should also be on the merits - the skills and potential these folks bring to the table,  their lack of moral fault, and the steps each must take to demonstrate they will be productive members of the community.

But concern for the  law isn't what motivates you.  Don't con the members of this board - you oppose the DACA because for you, it's a matter of "brown vs. white".         

[Jazzhead]

what a complete, unabashed whitewashing attempt.

1. they were illegally here, which means you lied.

2. they were above board employees - really, you mean someone who comes here to steal jobs from Americans, almost always being paid cash are getting there based on merit - another lie that has nt basis on fact

3. they haven't taken jobs from Americans  - how stupid can that statement be?  who do you think would have had that job if not being stolen by someone who should not be here? are you naive enough to think it would just be unfilled?

4. paying taxes - cash transactions are always paying fed income taxes, medicare taxes and into SS when there is not ssn?  You are stupid to even write that.

What dishonest arguments.   The topic is that subset of illegals eligible for DACA.  Those who've come forward - close to a million - have revealed themselves to the authorities in exchange for the ability to work in the legal economy,  in legal jobs subject to labor protections and tax withholdings.   They aren't taking jobs from Americans in the underground economy.  They compete on the same basis as you do.   And the reason they've been offered this opportunity is that they lack moral fault - they didn't come here with illegal intent,  they were brought here by their parents, and in many cases have become cultural Americans.   

[bigheadfred]

In all fairness 20 years just isn't enough time to naturalize. And it would be stupid to  give up your fallback position.

[Wingnut]

   And the reason they've been offered this opportunity is that they lack moral fault - they didn't come here with illegal intent,  they were brought here by their parents, and in many cases have become    cultural Americans.

Well, la-di-freakin'-da.  Jazzyhead Our resident cultural warrior is making up new terms just like a democrat.   Bless your bleeding liberal heart.

[goatprairie]

The thing is this: these children, smuggled and trafficked into the U.S. as children, if they are so immersed in American culture...

If only there were a progressive paradise with a nearly identical culture to ours except outside our borders!

Oh, wait. That does exist. Let's just dump them into Canada! They've got a lot more room for them up there.

A great idea and one that would put the spotlight directly on that idiot Trudeau. It's a win-win for us....if Canada takes them all, they're not here.  :thumbsup2: If he turns them away, he is revealed to be a great humanitarian fraud as well as a king-sized Marxist doofus. Either way...

[TomSea]

They can word these polls in certain ways as well.  These kinds of polls may be a bit suspect.

[jpsb]

@Jazzhead

So if I believe there should be consequences for poor choices, especially illegal ones, it's a view based on emotion.

But your belief that we should dismiss the consequences in order to show compassion---an emotion---is not.

@Jazzhead @CatherineofAragon

Question of any one that cares to answer

Dad enbezels (sp) tens of millions of dollars from a big bank/investment firm where he works as a top executive. He uses some of that money to buy Jr a very expensive waterfront home in the Hamptons. Dad gets caught, does Jr get to keep the house?