Poll: 76 percent of voters say 'Dreamers' should be allowed to stay

[jpsb]

It has been thus through multiple election cycles.

It is unbelievable how easily and blatantly they (elected GOPer) lie to the voters. If nothing else Trump has exposed most elected GOPer as lying phonies.

[DCPatriot]

What dishonest arguments.   The topic is that subset of illegals eligible for DACA.  Those who've come forward - close to a million - have revealed themselves to the authorities in exchange for the ability to work in the legal economy,  in legal jobs subject to labor protections and tax withholdings.   They aren't taking jobs from Americans in the underground economy.  They compete on the same basis as you do.   And the reason they've been offered this opportunity is that they lack moral fault - they didn't come here with illegal intent,  they were brought here by their parents, and in many cases have become cultural Americans.   

What about the 24/7 train/rail convoys of rail cars overloaded by MINOR CHILDREN, with ZERO adult accompaniment?   That went on for MONTHS/YEARS??

If they're cognizant enough to hang on to that roof on the rail car traveling north into the USA, they sure as shit have "moral fault".

[jpsb]

What about the 24/7 train/rail convoys of rail cars overloaded by MINOR CHILDREN, with ZERO adult accompaniment?   That went on for MONTHS/YEARS??

If they're cognizant enough to hang on to that roof on the rail car traveling north into the USA, they sure as shit have "moral fault".

I would be willing to work something out for children brought here illegally by their parents

IF

They were brought here as young children (pre teen)
They are now adults (18+)

Because

The USA is the only country they know.

All those "children" that migrated in the great child migration of the last few years go back as far as I am concerned.

[jmyrlefuller]

If they're cognizant enough to hang on to that roof on the rail car traveling north into the USA, they sure as shit have "moral fault".

Yes, because we all know the smart thing to do is to jump out of a moving vehicle and either kill or seriously injure themselves.

Are you flipping nuts?!

[Smokin Joe]

Don't be so craven.   You're the one who raised the issue of race, not me:

 The DACA enrollees aren't taking jobs from Americans, any more than you're taking a job from an American.   They're no longer underground, they're competing on a level playing field for legal jobs, and earning them on merit. 

Yes, the law is an issue -  their status derives from a likely unconstitutional executive order, and Congress needs to codify their status.   And that decision should also be on the merits - the skills and potential these folks bring to the table,  their lack of moral fault, and the steps each must take to demonstrate they will be productive members of the community.

But concern for the  law isn't what motivates you.  Don't con the members of this board - you oppose the DACA because for you, it's a matter of "brown vs. white".       

Oh bullshit. I'm so damned prejudiced I'm married to a Chippewa lady. Don't bother to pull the race card on me. What I stated is part of the employment landscape whether you liberals want to admit how toxic you have made the environment or not. If they fail to have the correct diversity mix, employers open themselves to lawsuits claiming discrimination. That's expensive.

As for taking jobs from Americans, are they Americans? If they are not, and there are Americans who would and could be doing those jobs, then they damn sure are.

Concern for law is my only concern here. I have worked with and befriended people from all sorts of backgrounds. The question here is "Are illegal aliens being allowed to supplant American citizens in the workplace?". Your attempt at deflection says they are.

[skeeter]

I would be willing to work something out for children brought here illegally by their parents

IF

They were brought here as young children (pre teen)
They are now adults (18+)

Because

The USA is the only country they know.

All those "children" that migrated in the great child migration of the last few years go back as far as I am concerned.

The question remains: how would anyone know when they got here and how old they were?

Seems to me any illegal immigrant under 31 (or 36 depending upon who you ask) can claim DACA status.

[Wingnut]

The question remains: how would anyone know when they got here and how old they were?

Seems to me any illegal immigrant under 31 (or 36 depending upon who you ask) can claim DACA status.

From what I can tell from media reports is
1. all Dreamers are little children.

2.  and Trump is ripping their fragile little bodies from their mothers boosems and sending them back to Mexico or Guatemala or some other banana picking republic.

3.  GOP bad man

[skeeter]

From what I can tell from media reports is
1. all Dreamers are little children.

2.  and Trump is ripping their fragile little bodies from their mothers boosems and sending them back to Mexico or Guatemala or some other banana picking republic.

3.  GOP bad man

The globalists have been using children as the proverbial camel's nose for years now. Either we toughen up and start dealing with reality or we will be consumed.

[goatprairie]

Hey gang, how about those "dreamers" i.e. children of people trying to enter the country LEGALLY!!! Don't they have the right to dream?  Why should their dreams (heh, heh) of being an American citizen LEGALLY!!! be put on hold so children of illegal aliens are allowed a pathway to citizenship by the virtue of their parents committing a crime?
The bottom line is if DACA is allowed to proceed,  certain people/illegal aliens aka DREAMERS are being rewarded because their parents committed a crime. There's no other way around it.

[Smokin Joe]

Hey gang, how about those "dreamers" i.e. children of people trying to enter the country LEGALLY!!! Don't they have the right to dream?  Why should their dreams (heh, heh) of being an American citizen LEGALLY!!! be put on hold so children of illegal aliens are allowed a pathway to citizenship by the virtue of their parents commiting a crime?
The bottom line is if DACA is allowed to proceed,  certain people/illegal aliens aka DREAMERS are being rewarded because their parents commited a crime. There's no other way around it.

Yep. No matter who they are.

[DCPatriot]

I would be willing to work something out for children brought here illegally by their parents

IF

They were brought here as young children (pre teen)
They are now adults (18+)

Because

The USA is the only country they know.

All those "children" that migrated in the great child migration of the last few years go back as far as I am concerned.

Exactly!   

[DCPatriot]

Yes, because we all know the smart thing to do is to jump out of a moving vehicle and either kill or seriously injure themselves.

Are you flipping nuts?!

What are you babbling on about?   

[Jazzhead]

Oh bullshit. I'm so damned prejudiced I'm married to a Chippewa lady. Don't bother to pull the race card on me. What I stated is part of the employment landscape whether you liberals want to admit how toxic you have made the environment or not. If they fail to have the correct diversity mix, employers open themselves to lawsuits claiming discrimination. That's expensive.

As for taking jobs from Americans, are they Americans? If they are not, and there are Americans who would and could be doing those jobs, then they damn sure are.

Concern for law is my only concern here. I have worked with and befriended people from all sorts of backgrounds. The question here is "Are illegal aliens being allowed to supplant American citizens in the workplace?". Your attempt at deflection says they are.

You played the race card, not me.   You're the one "deflecting", not me.   You've revealed your motivation and now you're backpeddling.   

[skeeter]

You are craven in your dishonesty.

Nay, come, Kate, come. You must not look so sour.

[Wingnut]

You played the race card, not me.   You're the one "deflecting", not me.   You've revealed your motivation and now you're backpeddling.   

You don't play well with others do you?   

[bigheadfred]

I don't know if you remember, @Smokin Joe, my mentioning my wife is at least 1/16 NA because of her maternal g-mom being somewhat NA. Turns out her brother did the Ancestry thing and my wife's paternal g-mom, was 1/2 or more "French", too. So my wife is more "French" than she thought.

Why don't these dreamers claim NA status? Is it because they are too racist to admit they have NA blood?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I actually support letting most Dreamers stay, but there are some pretty poor, disingenuous arguments being advanced in support of that.

The Cato Institute article is...not good.  As has been pointed out, and should be obvious to anyone approaching this from a neutral perspective, H-1B visa holders are a terrible proxy for Dreamers.  It's such a shoddy bit of analysis that I wouldn't trust a single other thing in an article that did that.

Just for starters, you only get an H-1B if you already have a guaranteed job in a "specialty occupation" requiring "highly specialized" knowledge.  These are by definition people who already have proven themselves professionally successful, gainfully employed, and have (almost universally) obtained at least a bachelor's degree in a useful field.

Dreamers include current high school students, people who only got a GED, and/or never attended (much less graduated from) college, as well as college students with crappy degrees who can't find good jobs.  While some percentage of Dreamers will find success equivalent to what all H-1B visa holders have already achieved, a great many certainly will not. Cato surely knows that, but used it anyway.  That's really quite despicable.

[Smokin Joe]

You played the race card, not me.   You're the one "deflecting", not me.   You've revealed your motivation and now you're backpeddling.   

I made mention of the fact that all things being equal the person who counts on the diversity checklist wins. Add in 'female' and they are a two-fer on the diversity checklist and a shoo-in, all else equal, and sometimes if it isn't. Are you so afraid of that fact that you want to call me racist for pointing it out?

If none of that counts, why even collect the data?
Think of all the paperwork that would be saved if the playing field was truly level.

You still have not addressed the ILLEGAL ALIEN part of my comment. You still have failed to address how these people are not taking jobs from AMERICANS when they ARE NOT AMERICANS, and AREN'T EVEN HERE LEGALLY.
I consider hanging on one sentence and ignoring the seminal part of my comment to engage in the typically liberal gambit of crying "Racis!!!" to be dissimilation.

[Wingnut]

 The head line reads: 76 percent of voters say 'Dreamers' should be allowed to stay.


I think what the dems are worried about is that 76 percent of the dreamers will not be able to vote as they will still be ILLEGAL

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The other consistent error in most "immigration is good" analyses is that they fail to draw a normative distinction between an American holding a job and paying taxes, and a non-American holding a job and paying taxes.  In other words, they implicitly argue that as long as the immigrant is holding a job and paying taxes, why should we care?

Of course, from the perspective of business owners, it is better to have cheap labor - regardless of citizenship - because labor costs will be less.  But that's not the perspective of the American worker who may have gotten that job but for the immigrant competitor, or who is being paid less because the labor supply is higher than it would otherwise be.

I'm a pro-business, management side labor lawyer.  But that doesn't mean I like to see working people suffer from an expanded labor force that inevitably results in wage depression, and the possible loss of jobs by American citizens in favor of non-Americans.

That's stacking management/labor relations unfairly against working people.

[Smokin Joe]

The other consistent error in most "immigration is good" analyses is that they fail to draw a normative distinction between an American holding a job and paying taxes, and a non-American holding a job and paying taxes.  In other words, as.long as the immigrant is holding a job and paying taxes, why should we care?
Of course, from the perspective of business owners, it is better to have cheap labor because your labor costs will be less.  But that's not the perspective of the American worker who may have gotten that job but for the immigrant competitor.

I'm a pro-business, management side labor lawyer.  But that doesn't mean I like to see working people suffer from an expanded labor force that inevitably results in wage depression, and the possible loss of jobs by American citizens in favor of non-Americans.

That's stacking management/labor relations unfairly against working people.

Unless your products are being exported, it might behoove management to ensure there is a domestic market for their products. Or we can send our money elsewhere for cheaper stuff, and the cheaper labor can send the paycheck home to whatever craphole they snuck out of. Fifty Billion a year in money transfers to Mexico can't all be drug money, and what isn't sure would look nice on domestic industry's bottom line.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I made mention of the fact that all things being equal the person who counts on the diversity checklist wins.

Sadly, that is too true in too many places.

[Cyber Liberty]

I consider hanging on one sentence and ignoring the seminal part of my comment to engage in the typically liberal gambit of crying "Racis!!!" to be dissimilation.

This is why I no longer argue with the Member in question about anything.  This the normal way he argues with people, twisting their meanings by ripping their words out of context and spewing the distorted arguments back.  Strawmen everywhere I look.

[Smokin Joe]

I don't know if you remember, @Smokin Joe, my mentioning my wife is at least 1/16 NA because of her maternal g-mom being somewhat NA. Turns out her brother did the Ancestry thing and my wife's paternal g-mom, was 1/2 or more "French", too. So my wife is more "French" than she thought.

Why don't these dreamers claim NA status? Is it because they are too racist to admit they have NA blood?

Because they are too busy claiming they are "Hispanic" or "Latino" because their part of the continent was overrun by European people who spoke Spanish instead of European people who spoke English or French, event though their part of it was run by Napoleon III for a while.

The most notable adventure was attributed to Napoleon III of France, who used the pretext of collecting overdue loans to Mexico to justify the invasion of that country. In truth, the French were really trying to recapture some of the grandeur of earlier Napoleonic times. They had support from conservative elements within Mexico, who had tired of the regular cycle of unrest and revolution.

The French forces suffered some embarrassing early defeats, but were able to occupy Mexico City in June 1863. They established a puppet government under Austro-Hungarian Archduke Fernando Maximilian, who was named emperor of Mexico in 1864.

>snip<
Early in 1867, the remaining French soldiers withdrew; the empire collapsed almost immediately. Maximilian was captured, tried and executed in June on that year.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h101.html

Inconvenient truths, like the fact that only three percent of the Africans loaded onto slave ships were bound for the US. THe vast majority went to the Caribbean and Brazil.
Facts don't matter, only the fable.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Unless your products are being exported, it might behoove management to ensure there is a domestic market for their products.

You know, at least in manufacturing, there is an argument that lower labor costs are necessary to remain competitive.  if labor costs are too high, there may not be a business at all because the product will be produced overseas, etc..

But the vast majority of jobs aren't manufacturing at all anyway.  The vast majority are service jobs that must, by their nature, be performed within our own borders and cannot be "outsourced" at all.  Having immigrants perform those jobs in this country generally means that 1) An American who would like that job doesn't have it, and/or 2) the wages that are being paid to the people (including American citizens) who do hold such jobs are lower than they would otherwise be.

Again, that may be dandy for those of us who don't need such jobs, because it means we will be paying less for those services.  But it really sucks for the people working such jobs.