Poll: 76 percent of voters say 'Dreamers' should be allowed to stay

[Smokin Joe]

You know, at least in manufacturing, there is an argument that lower labor costs are necessary to remain competitive.  if labor costs are too high, there may not be a business at all because the product will be produced overseas, etc..

But the vast majority of jobs aren't manufacturing at all anyway.  The vast majority are service jobs that must, by their nature, be performed within our own borders and cannot be "outsourced" at all.  Having immigrants perform those jobs in this country generally means that 1) An American who would like that job doesn't have it, and/or 2) the wages that are being paid to the people (including American citizens) who do hold such jobs are lower than they would otherwise be.

Again, that may be dandy for those of us who don't need such jobs, because it means we will be paying less for those services.  But it really sucks for the people working such jobs.

If that money was going to Americans, it would be mostly spent here. Transfer it to Mexico or elsewhere, and it doesn't do anything for our economy here.

[bilo]

The other consistent error in most "immigration is good" analyses is that they fail to draw a normative distinction between an American holding a job and paying taxes, and a non-American holding a job and paying taxes.  In other words, they implicitly argue that as long as the immigrant is holding a job and paying taxes, why should we care?

Of course, from the perspective of business owners, it is better to have cheap labor - regardless of citizenship - because labor costs will be less.  But that's not the perspective of the American worker who may have gotten that job but for the immigrant competitor, or who is being paid less because the labor supply is higher than it would otherwise be.

I'm a pro-business, management side labor lawyer.  But that doesn't mean I like to see working people suffer from an expanded labor force that inevitably results in wage depression, and the possible loss of jobs by American citizens in favor of non-Americans.

That's stacking management/labor relations unfairly against working people.

I'm a real estate owner/manager/developer and couldn't agree with you more.

I wonder how much of our inner city problems would be alleviated if this under educated group were trained in various vocational skills and took the entry level positions in construction. Just learning the discipline of working and gaining the dignity that comes from work would have to be helpful.

[aligncare]

I'm a real estate owner/manager/developer and couldn't agree with you more.

I wonder how much of our inner city problems would be alleviated if this under educated group were trained in various vocational skills and took the entry level positions in construction. Just learning the discipline of working and gaining the dignity that comes from work would have to be helpful.

The left prefers pushing every student go to college – get em loans, lower admissions standards, affirmative action.

After all we need more Women's Studies grads and Polysci majors.

Me? I need my toilet fixed.

[bilo]

The left prefers pushing every student go to college – get em loans, lower admissions standards, affirmative action.

After all we need more Women's Studies grads and Polysci majors.

Me? I need my toilet fixed.

LOL!

That's why plumbers make $75.00 an hr with a minimum of $125.00 to come to the house.

It's funny, but it's sad. I see so many contractors who make a very good living and almost all of them are immigrants.

[Cyber Liberty]

I'm a real estate owner/manager/developer and couldn't agree with you more.

I wonder how much of our inner city problems would be alleviated if this under educated group were trained in various vocational skills and took the entry level positions in construction. Just learning the discipline of working and gaining the dignity that comes from work would have to be helpful.

I'm not convinced these folks in the inner cities WANT to work at vocational opportunities.  Why should they, when they get comfortable pay collecting welfare for their growing families, and then there's the lure of "easy money" in illegal activities like drugs and prostitution.

[Cyber Liberty]

LOL!

That's why plumbers make $75.00 an hr with a minimum of $125.00 to come to the house.

It's funny, but it's sad. I see so many contractors who make a very good living and almost all of them are immigrants.

When my toilet's broken, I can see the value in ponying up that $125+ fee.  My only question for the plumber is "What time?"

[Wingnut]

Me? I need my toilet fixed.

I need my plumbing fixed 1st.  Then we can talk about that toilet.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

  And the reason they've been offered this opportunity is that they lack moral fault - they didn't come here with illegal intent,  they were brought here by their parents, and in many cases have become cultural Americans.   

Lacking 'moral fault' is no a reason to accept them in the work force to displace Americans.

It is ironic you defend illegals that 'lack moral fault' yet condemn the unborn who 'lack more fault'.

Liberals always, always pick and choose without compunction to suit their own desires.  It is easy to see past their veil of deception.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

And how capable is the govt to actually execute this properly?  Here's the govt at work.

Fmr. USCIS Investigator: There’s a ‘Huge’ Amount of Fraud in DACA
Immigration official turned activist claims up to 50 percent of approved program applications contained inaccuracies
https://www.lifezette.com/polizette/fmr-uscis-investigator-theres-huge-amount-fraud-daca-program/

[Jazzhead]

Lacking 'moral fault' is no a reason to accept them in the work force to displace Americans.

 You assume a zero sum game.  In an environment of economic growth,  the contributions of immigrants will not displace American workers.   Now I don't mean in the underground economy, I mean in the legal one.  Fair and square competition.   There's still a reason,  on a level playing field, why employers prefer the ambition of immigrants.   But there is nothing disqualifying American workers other than their own limitations. 

It is ironic you defend illegals that 'lack moral fault' yet condemn the unborn who 'lack more fault'.

I have never "condemned the unborn"   I have always been on record as opposing abortion.   But I don't think abortions are reduced by waging culture wars and unleashing a police state.   I think abortions are reduced by persuasion in an environment of persuadability.   Reconciliation saves lives. 

Liberals always, always pick and choose without compunction to suit their own desires.  It is easy to see past their veil of deception.

Yeah, right.  You're virtuous, everyone else is evil.  I think that's the poisonous and presumptuous attitude of a zealot.  We all want what's best for the nation.       

[Smokin Joe]

The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

ShakespeareJulius Caesar Act 3, Scene 2

Choose wisely.

[Wingnut]

ShakespeareJulius Caesar Act 3, Scene 2

Choose wisely.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: An old Knight, “He Chose Poorly...You Have Chosen… Wisely”

[Cyber Liberty]

You're virtuous, everyone else is evil. 

 

[Smokin Joe]

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: An old Knight, “He Chose Poorly...You Have Chosen… Wisely”

I almost typed...."Grasshopper." after that.

[Wingnut]

I almost typed...."Grasshopper." after that.

Some would say Kwai Chang Caine was based on a shakespearean writing.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You assume a zero sum game.  In an environment of economic growth,  the contributions of immigrants will not displace American workers.   Now I don't mean in the underground economy, I mean in the legal one.  Fair and square competition.   There's still a reason,  on a level playing field, why employers prefer the ambition of immigrants.   But there is nothing disqualifying American workers other than their own limitations.

Ambitions of immigrants?  That is a crock, as the only 'ambition' clearly exhibited was breaking our laws.  We do not need that type of ambition.

I have never "condemned the unborn"   I have always been on record as opposing abortion.   But I don't think abortions are reduced by waging culture wars and unleashing a police state.   I think abortions are reduced by persuasion in an environment of persuadability.   Reconciliation saves lives. 

Yes, you have condemned the unborn who have no fault when you allow someone to remove their opportunity to live.  That is subordinating the right to live to the whims of a person who decides it is 'inconvenient' to birth a child.

Yeah, right.  You're virtuous, everyone else is evil.  I think that's the poisonous and presumptuous attitude of a zealot.  We all want what's best for the nation.       

Poison is what a liberal spills everytime they subvert the laws of this country.  And supporting someone who has no right to be here is doing so.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You assume a zero sum game.  In an environment of economic growth,  the contributions of immigrants will not displace American workers.   Now I don't mean in the underground economy, I mean in the legal one.  Fair and square competition.   There's still a reason,  on a level playing field, why employers prefer the ambition of immigrants.   But there is nothing disqualifying American workers other than their own limitations. 

Let's just assume for the sake of it that it is what you call a 'zero sum game', although it clearly is not.

Why give those jobs away to people illegally here and instead give those jobs to legal immigrants?

It is a truism that one does not reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people who are standing in line for legal status those chose the correct way to come here instead of unlawfully being here that would be glad to be given those jobs.

Immigrants applying to enter US legally facing longer waits
As illegal immigrants continue to seek legal status under President Obama's executive actions, the waiting list to enter the United States legally grows longer, as does the waiting time for those in the pipeline.

American born Jimmy Gugliotta, who currently lives in Santiago, Chile, with his Argentinian wife and their children, has been waiting more than a year and a half for visas to bring his family to the U.S. He doesn't understand why going through the process legally puts him behind people who sneak into the U.S. illegally.

"It's really sad to see that we've been put in the back seat," Gugliotta told Fox News via email. "What I found outrageous is people like me, a U.S. citizen, are actually being put at the back of the line, and that to me is a total outrage."

The waiting list for those trying to enter the U.S. legally now stands at 4.4 million, 100,000 more than last year. Some have been on the list for more than 15 years. Even though the spouses and children of U.S citizens are supposed to get priority, even their wait times have jumped from as little as two months to up 18 months as the administration deals with a surge of illegal immigrants given lawful status by president Obama.

"I've had people tell me, 'Why don't you just show up at the border and try to get across?'" said Gugliotta. "I say, 'No, we want to do this thing right.'"
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/18/immigrants-applying-to-enter-us-legally-facing-longer-waits.html

Compassion has nothing to do with adherence to the law. We are either a nation of laws or we are not.

[Oceander]

Let's just assume for the sake of it that it is what you call a 'zero sum game', although it clearly is not.

Why give those jobs away to people illegally here and instead give those jobs to legal immigrants?

It is a truism that one does not reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people who are standing in line for legal status those chose the correct way to come here instead of unlawfully being here that would be glad to be given those jobs.

Compassion has nothing to do with adherence to the law. We are either a nation of laws or we are not.

Compassion has everything to do with it, and exercising due compassion does not make a country lawless.  Prosecutorial discretion is a very traditional component of what it means for a nation to be a nation of laws, and it includes an element of compassion. 

The heartless, mechanical enforcement of the law leads to lawless tyranny just as surely as does a corrupt refusal to enforce the law.

[Smokin Joe]

Compassion has everything to do with it, and exercising due compassion does not make a country lawless.  Prosecutorial discretion is a very traditional component of what it means for a nation to be a nation of laws, and it includes an element of compassion. 

The heartless, mechanical enforcement of the law leads to lawless tyranny just as surely as does a corrupt refusal to enforce the law.

So write compassionate laws, and enforce those. That is better than leaving enforcement as an arbitrary and capricious event solely dependent on the whim of those enforcing it.

[RoosGirl]

So write compassionate laws, and enforce those. That is better than leaving enforcement as an arbitrary and capricious event solely dependent on the whim of those enforcing it.

Agreed here.  Compassion has a lot to do with fairness and I sure see a lot of unfairness aimed at people who went through the trouble to immigrate legally when those who are here illegally are "set free".

[Oceander]

So write compassionate laws, and enforce those. That is better than leaving enforcement as an arbitrary and capricious event solely dependent on the whim of those enforcing it.

Both are required, because humanity is imperfect and so there will never be perfect legislation or perfect enforcement, and a touch of compassion is the oil that keeps the system lubricated and working. 

I hope for your sake that you will never find yourself confronted with your own words on the day to come when you need a little compassion. 

[catfish1957]

If that money was going to Americans, it would be mostly spent here. Transfer it to Mexico or elsewhere, and it doesn't do anything for our economy here.

I wonder what percentage of the tax base the other 24% foot.

[Oceander]

Agreed here.  Compassion has a lot to do with fairness and I sure see a lot of unfairness aimed at people who went through the trouble to immigrate legally when those who are here illegally are "set free".

False compassion will get you everywhere, apparently.  I have never, and will never, say that they should all just be "set free" and no harm, no foul; I think that legalization should come with some permanent disabilities, such as no right to naturalization. 

But it does no unfairness to anyone who went through the right process to enter legally if a person who was brought here as a young child is legalized without disability.  That is what compassion is about.

[bigheadfred]

Compassion has everything to do with it, and exercising due compassion does not make a country lawless.  Prosecutorial discretion is a very traditional component of what it means for a nation to be a nation of laws, and it includes an element of compassion. 

The heartless, mechanical enforcement of the law leads to lawless tyranny just as surely as does a corrupt refusal to enforce the law.

Life isn't fair. The compassion lands on the side of the citizens.

[Oceander]

Life isn't fair. The compassion lands on the side of the citizens.

Ahhh.  Just as forgiveness only lands on the side of those who don't need to be forgiven.  Just as tolerance is only for those whom you already tolerate. 

No, compassion lands on the side of the children brought here illegally by their parents.