Rand Paul: Buying American isn't necessarily the right choice

[kevindavis007]

Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul said Sunday there’s a reason why buying American-made goods is not always the best option: cost.


“You know, I think all of us have this goal to buy American, but we have to think this thing through,” Paul told Jake Tapper on CNN’s "State of the Union."


Tapper was pressing Paul on why President Donald Trump touted "Made in the USA" goods all week but still hires foreign workers at his Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida. Tapper also noted that Trump's company manufacturers a bevy of Trump-branded clothing products abroad.


The libertarian-leaning Paul said global trade, the same kind that candidate Trump slammed for “ripping off” the U.S., allows Americans to buy cheaper goods, stretching their dollars so they can then pay for things like a vacation or a new vehicle.


“It used to be a shirt, just a regular button-up shirt, might be $20, $25, and still might be in places. And at Wal-Mart, it's $7," Paul said. "And so that savings, though, allows working-class people to have savings to get a television set, to go on vacation, to buy gas for their truck. So trade is really a good thing.”


As a candidate, Trump defended his decision to manufacture some of his own products abroad, especially apparel, characterizing himself as someone who was simply making smart business decisions based on the costs.


In response to Paul's answer, Tapper noted that the members of Mar-a-Lago, where "the membership fee is $200,000 a year," were not in the same situation as average American workers.


Paul, who ran against Trump for the GOP presidential nomination, did concede that using foreign workers at Mar-a-Lago was "different," but he did not elaborate.


Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/23/rand-paul-trump-foreign-workers-240858?cmpid=sf

[Cripplecreek]

During the campaign, Trump himself said that prices would likely go up "a little" but a little to Trump is a far cry from what most of us consider to be "a little".

For me, $20 per week is not "a little".

[kevindavis007]

During the campaign, Trump himself said that prices would likely go up "a little" but a little to Trump is a far cry from what most of us consider to be "a little".

For me, $20 per week is not "a little".

Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.

[edpc]

I'll buy some items cheap. For instance, T-shirts in season wear that won't last.   However, I'll spend more on quality items at specialty stores for work and outdoor purposes.

[driftdiver]

Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.

@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long?    Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?

Some times lower cost is good.   Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker.   I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else.  Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper.    Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps.  It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.

[kevindavis007]

@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long?    Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?

Some times lower cost is good.   Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker.   I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else.  Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper.    Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps.  It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.

Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.

[driftdiver]

Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.

The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things.  They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed.  They tell the bed makers what materials they can use.  Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom.  Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.

Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.

[Suppressed]

@kevindavis
How about if that $25 dollar shirt lasts 4 times as long?    Or those work boots, instead of buying a pair every couple of months you pay extra and they last all year?

Some times lower cost is good.   Sometimes its taking advantage of a sucker.   I've found the clothes at Walmart to be of significantly lower quality than clothes just about anywhere else.  Because the only way to sell them cheaper is to make them cheaper.    Cheaper means more than just cheap labor from work camps.  It means cheaper materials, lower thread counts, lower quality and other factors that make that cheap item a really really bad idea.

Then, fine, buy where you want.  The idea is to purchase where you get the best value for your needs, not to just blindly buy US.

Note, though, that what you state about quality isn't always the case.  A former client of mine tried hard to keep his garment manufacturing in the US, but found that they had fewer complaints on the overflow he gave to China.  Eventually, they had to give all the business to China because "they know garments!" and they couldn't compete with the extra cost and higher complaints by staying with US.

[Suppressed]

The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things.  They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed.  They tell the bed makers what materials they can use.  Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom.  Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.

Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.

Sounds like you're going against Trump, agreeing with Tapper's line of questioning.  Interesting.

[kevindavis007]

The "reality' is that our Government controls ALL kinds of things.  They require those little tags on the pillows that are on everyones bed.  They tell the bed makers what materials they can use.  Heck they define what a room has to have in order to qualify as a bedroom.  Most of these things they shouldnt be involved in.

Controlling foreign & interstate trade is one of the few things the Federal Government is supposed to be involved with.

Even it means me paying $25 for a simple t-shirt or $100 for a streaming device. Thank you, but no thank you.

[Cripplecreek]

Here is the reality... It is my money and I'm free to buy any product from anywhere. I shouldn't be force to buy a product that was made in America.

I'm not a fan of globalism in the sense of globally managed trade. I think nations should be free to make and break trade deals at will without interference from a global trade authority.

However the so called anti globalists want something far worse. They want trade restricted and controlled by government and that restricts the choices of the individual. In the most extreme anti globalist cases, clowns like TOS's CringingNegativityNetwork don't even want us to sell products outside the country. He said its better to subsidize ethanol than for farmers to sell their products overseas at a discount. He's a big fan of punishing tariffs and if those don't  work, more extreme measures should be taken including going so far as punishing the consumer with criminal prosecution.

[roamer_1]

Nor anyone else.. It is quit simple.. If I spend $7 on a shirt that would cost me $25.. I would have more money to spend on other things. If I have to pay $25 on a shirt, I won't have more money to spend on other things.

That is not quite right. I pay more for tee shirts through Duluth Trading Company. But they last for years, and on me, that's saying something. And because I sought out those good tee shirts, I don't have to buy new ones every 6 months.

Same with hikers. Same with muks - My current muks are Canadian made, and I have had them for 15 years. a pair of US made Sorels last me but a couple winters... and cost more.

American industry should not have gone cheap. I don't really care what it costs, so long as it is durable. nothing, or at least damn little is made with durability anymore. And it's a crying shame.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I try to buy on quality first, then on price, depending on what's needed. If I need something for a one time use, i'll buy the cheapest option.

Where it's made is generally irrelevant, but all things being equal I will opt for the made in the USA option.

But that isn't always the best option.

[driftdiver]

Then, fine, buy where you want.  The idea is to purchase where you get the best value for your needs, not to just blindly buy US.

Note, though, that what you state about quality isn't always the case.  A former client of mine tried hard to keep his garment manufacturing in the US, but found that they had fewer complaints on the overflow he gave to China.  Eventually, they had to give all the business to China because "they know garments!" and they couldn't compete with the extra cost and higher complaints by staying with US.

@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations.  They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.

[Oceander]

Pricey "made in America" is no guarantee of quality. 

[HonestJohn]

Pricey "made in America" is no guarantee of quality.

The 1970s definitely taught us that.

[Suppressed]

@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations.  They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.

Plus, American education is so bad that most Americans can't understand that their wages should be lower than others, to compete. 

Oversimplified:

Labor cost = Wages + Other Costs,  where Other Costs includes things like OSHA protections.  So OSHA protections mean Americans should be accepting lower wages to be competitive with the market, all things being equal.

Yet Americans seem to think they should, by birthright, be paid more than their competitors, without having to produce a superior product or more of it.

We need to reduce other burdens on US companies, but the bottom line is that we must also be competitive.

[roamer_1]

I try to buy on quality first, then on price, depending on what's needed. If I need something for a one time use, i'll buy the cheapest option.

Where it's made is generally irrelevant, but all things being equal I will opt for the made in the USA option.

But that isn't always the best option.

You know what's dumb? Here I sit at my tech bench, and the tools upon it... I dunno, there's maybe 100 bucks worth of crappy tools... The most expensive, outside of my multi-meter is a crappy Black and Decker cordless screw driver... I think it is the only Black and Decker tool I own. And these are the tools I make my money with every day.

Shoot, in carpentry tools, I couldn't hardly buy a nail belt for that kind of money, not to mention fill it with tools. I've easy got 10k in carpentry tools, maybe 50-80k in mechanics tools (all top flight. mostly Snap-On) Even my go-bag and woods tools has got to be a couple grand...

So I've allotted 50 bucks a month. I will have a nice machinists chest on my bench pretty soon, filled with excellent tools to ply my trade. I don't really know how I got off-track. those cheap tools piss me off daily, but somehow, computer tools are different. And it isn't just me. I don't know anyone who buys expensive jeweler's screwdrivers for instance. That's going to be my first purchase.

[skeeter]

@Suppressed
Of course the reason the quality here has gone down is because of the Chinese cheap labor and no regulations.  They undercut American businesses and pushed all of them out of business.

The oldest business in my town - a family making and shipping gopher traps out of an old Victorian - recently moved its manufacturing to China after 120 years of continual operations.

Even though he only employed two low wage employees, between taxes and California state labor laws & regulations he could no longer compete with (subsidized) labor costs abroad.

Its just an anicdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

You know what's dumb? Here I sit at my tech bench, and the tools upon it... I dunno, there's maybe 100 bucks worth of crappy tools... The most expensive, outside of my multi-meter is a crappy Black and Decker cordless screw driver... I think it is the only Black and Decker tool I own. And these are the tools I make my money with every day.

Shoot, in carpentry tools, I couldn't hardly buy a nail belt for that kind of money, not to mention fill it with tools. I've easy got 10k in carpentry tools, maybe 50-80k in mechanics tools (all top flight. mostly Snap-On) Even my go-bag and woods tools has got to be a couple grand...

So I've allotted 50 bucks a month. I will have a nice machinists chest on my bench pretty soon, filled with excellent tools to ply my trade. I don't really know how I got off-track. those cheap tools **** me off daily, but somehow, computer tools are different. And it isn't just me. I don't know anyone who buys expensive jeweler's screwdrivers for instance. That's going to be my first purchase.

Don't get me started on Snap-off. I just don't see the value in a $500 floor jack. But that's just me.

[driftdiver]

Complicated issue full of emotions and subjectivity.

Whats gonna happen when America has sent all of our production, manufacturing, and skilled jobs overseas?    Ok that tshirt might be cheaper but if you don't have a job even $7 is a lot of money.

Not to mention the wages overseas have gone up tremendously but regulation has not.   I used to be able to hire a software programmer in India for $1 or $2 an hour, then it was $9, then $12, now its $25.   But they still don't have the regulations.   The companies there are still able to get access to money to fund growth.

The free trade people say the money comes back to the US, but it really doesn't.  Perhaps companies like Nestle might have a better profit but the actual money doesn't come back here.  It doesn't buy stuff here, it doesn't pay people here, and it certainly isn't invested in new businesses here.   No that money stays in China and builds stuff in China.

So we outsource our labor and our intellectual capital goes with it.    We cease having the skill to produce, to invent, heck we don't have the skill to even break even in some areas.

America will be a 3rd world country within a couple generations, traded for a $7 tshirt.

[kevindavis007]

The oldest business in my town - a family making and shipping gopher traps out of an old Victorian - recently moved its manufacturing to China after 120 years of continual operations.

Even though he only employed two low wage employees, between taxes and California state labor laws & regulations he could no longer compete with (subsidized) labor costs abroad.

Its just an anicdote, but representative. We get cheaper traps, but how much does society lose by now having two unemployed laborers with no money to churn back into the local economy?

Then I take it your not a fan of automation then..

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

America will be a 3rd world country within a couple generations, traded for a $7 tshirt.

I've been hearing this crap since I started following politics on the internet in the 90's. It's never happened.

[driftdiver]

Plus, American education is so bad that most Americans can't understand that their wages should be lower than others, to compete. 

Oversimplified:

Labor cost = Wages + Other Costs,  where Other Costs includes things like OSHA protections.  So OSHA protections mean Americans should be accepting lower wages to be competitive with the market, all things being equal.

Yet Americans seem to think they should, by birthright, be paid more than their competitors, without having to produce a superior product or more of it.

We need to reduce other burdens on US companies, but the bottom line is that we must also be competitive.

@Suppressed
Its far more complicated then that.   Have China and India just been sitting around hoping companies send their work offshore?   No, they've been paying lobbyists in Washington to pass laws favorable to offshoring.  They've been pushing more regulation (see environmental laws in Kyoto and Paris deals) that is focused on slowing America down.   They've been succeeding too.

Its not just the government either.   They subsidize their industry.   Tomatoes used to be a huge crop around where I live in Florida.  All those fields are empty now.  Because our govt gives money to the Mexican govt, the Mexican govt gives that money to their tomato farmers.   So that farmer in Mexico can grow and ship that tomato back to Florida cheaper then it can be grown here.  Never mind they use human waste for fertilizer.

Then there are the big global banks, who see more profit from pushing all the above offshore. They see a couple billion potential customers in those countries.  Each needing a car, each needing a credit card.   Meanwhile those same banks lie and steal from American customers and then offshore their own jobs to those countries.  And none of that money will benefit America.

[driftdiver]

I've been hearing this crap since I started following politics on the internet in the 90's. It's never happened.

It hasn't?   You should look around.   There are many areas where its quite visible.