Trump blindsided by implosion of GOP health care bill

[Emjay]

I wouldn't consider myself dirt poor now, since my annual income is higher than the national average and I live in an area with a reasonable cost of living.  However, I have been poor and I never begrudged a person's wealth, so long as it was obtained legally.  What, in your opinion, is the cut off point where it becomes obscene?

I totally agree.  How can conservatives who claim to want the government out of our business still want to figure out a way to deprive rich people of their money?

[bolobaby]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.  Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.   

Bwhahahahaha...

Right.

Those big corporations. They didn't build that. They didn't grow enough to provide healthcare as a part of compensation.

The funny thing is, there is a grain of truth in your statement, but for all the wrong reasons. You assume corporations didn't do the right things to get big enough to provide healthcare as part of their compensation within the current set of rules. Pshaw.

The truth is that if government GOT OUT OF THE WAY more small businesses could provide health *insurance* (keyword here, which we will revisit shortly). If government got out of the way, small businesses could afford policies that were...

1) Formed on association pools, like innkeepers, or plumbers
2) Sold across state lines with a common set of coverage and no regulation to prevent it
3) Designed around the services the insured in that particular pool MIGHT need (another keyword, MIGHT)

Your problem is that you want to give away healthCARE at a fraction of its current cost just because someone suddenly discovers they need it and did NOTHING to plan for it (i.e. bought insurance). Pay only when you get sick, and a lot less than the cost of your sickness. Your posts have shown time and time again that you don't understand the difference between healthcare and health insurance.

BTW, genius, there are plenty of affordable healthcare options out there. My family, for instance, uses Medi-share. We pay a fraction of what we would pay to have insurance. The nice thing? Aside from paying in to the program for an unforeseen medical expense, they aren't involved in our normal medical transactions, like wellness visits. We pay that out of pocket and it STILL costs us buttloads less.

I *know* you understand and get excited about "buttloads," so maybe you should quit your whining about those lucky, eeeeeevil corporations and go check your options.

(Disclaimer: My family uses Medi-share. I have VA options, something that is fair recompense for my service.)

[txradioguy]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.  Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.

[txradioguy]

The truth is that if government GOT OUT OF THE WAY more small businesses could provide health *insurance* (keyword here, which we will revisit shortly). If government got out of the way, small businesses could afford policies that were...

@bolobaby fact of the matter is that those that have truly been the hardest hit by the fraud that is Obamacare is Small Business owners and their employees.

They've been forced to cut employee hours if not cut employees outright...and in most cases pass on the increased costs due to Obamacare to the consumer and the customer.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.  Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.

I sometimes think you're treated unfairly here, but this doesn't sound quite right.  Just for starters, health care benefits are simply one element of total compensation.  I once worked for a large firm that didn't offer benefits, but paid more in base salary to make up for it.  You could then use that extra money to get a catastrophic plan/HSA if you so chose.

So what it sounds like you're really arguing is that your overall compensation -- how much you're paid - is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.  And I think that's the concept to which people are taking some offense.

[Jazzhead]

I sometimes think you're treated unfairly here, but this doesn't sound quite right.  Just for starters, health care benefits are simply one element of total compensation.  I once worked for a large firm that didn't offer benefits, but paid more in base salary to make up for it.  You could then use that extra money to get a catastrophic plan/HSA if you so chose.

So what it sounds like you're really arguing is that your overall compensation -- how much you're paid - is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.  And I think that's the concept to which people are taking some offense.

As I've mentioned numerous times,  a unique aspect of our health care financing system is that it is in large part employer-based - and of course employers can choose whether or not to offer health benefits (most larger employers do, many smaller employers don't).   

My point is simply that two folks who work equally hard and are equally virtuous may be in very different positions when it comes to health insurance, depending on the employer they work for.   That's what I'm calling luck - although if you prefer call it an arbitrary difference.   But it's a very real difference to someone newly diagnosed with cancer -  the one with coverage can beat it, while the other most likely will not, or will be bankrupted in the process.   

[driftdiver]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.  Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.

@Jazzhead
Group health plans are available to all companies.   They aren't the same plans necessarily but they are available.    I have a very small company and we have pretty dang good insurance.   Its not luck, its research, education and setting priorities.  Of course all my folks are educated and skilled.  So they aren't minimum wager earners.

Costs for each employee range from about $450 to about $1,000/month depending on age and gender.  I pay 100% of the employees cost.

[bolobaby]

@bolobaby fact of the matter is that those that have truly been the hardest hit by the fraud that is Obamacare is Small Business owners and their employees.

They've been forced to cut employee hours if not cut employees outright...and in most cases pass on the increased costs due to Obamacare to the consumer and the customer.

You don't have to tell me: my parents own an b&b and my best friend has a horsemanship business.

[Hoodat]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.

Bigger corporations can no longer afford it either due to skyrocketing premiums brought on by ACA.  So your chance of landing one of those jobs has decreased significantly since these big corporations are laying off workers by the tens of thousands.  But then that's what envy is all about, right?  If you can't have it, they shouldn't be able to have it either.

Your statement also reveals a complete ignorance of compensation.  Your employer isn't paying for those health benefits.  You are.  It is all tied into the cost of employing you.  Instead of giving you that money in salary, they subsidize your insurance on your behalf.

I work like a dog for one of the smaller companies just like you.  They once had great coverage.  Co-pays for ER.  Major medical.  Low deductible.  Everyone was happy.  But the ACA changed all that.  We lost the insurance we once had.  Now there is no ER co-pay.  Deductibles doubled.  Major medical gone.  And the network is now one-third the size.  All because of the ACA.

There is not a single person at my company that has benefited from the ACA.  Every single one has been hurt by it.  Every single one.

Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.

Spoken like a true envy-loving victim-card-holding leftist.  No one is forcing you to work for your employer.  You can quit any time you damn well please and find another job.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

My point is simply that two folks who work equally hard and are equally virtuous may be in very different positions when it comes to health insurance, depending on the employer they work for.   That's what I'm calling luck - although if you prefer call it an arbitrary difference.   

You really don't give a damn for any people who plan their careers and work hard, do you?

I am 'Lucky' in your book to be one of eleven kids who worked since ten to go to college, plan out my education and career and act accordingly to succeed when others chose different paths?

I call 'Lucky' a Ted Kennedy who never worked a day in his life and drew from daddy's ill-gotten wealth a life of babes, drinking and frivolty while polluting the American well and not having to suffer the consequences of his ill-advised actions like killing a woman.

Readers' Digest had an article many years ago which was something like "How Lucky People Got That Way". In it was hard work and positioning for success, not just what you call "Luck".

[driftdiver]

You really don't give a damn for any people who plan their careers and work hard, do you?

I am 'Lucky' in your book to be one of eleven kids who worked since ten to go to college, plan out my education and career and act accordingly to succeed when others chose different paths?

I call 'Lucky' a Ted Kennedy who never worked a day in his life and drew from daddy's ill-gotten wealth a life of babes, drinking and frivolty while polluting the American well and not having to suffer the consequences of his ill-advised actions like killing a woman.

Readers' Digest had an article many years ago which was something like "How Lucky People Got That Way". In it was hard work and positioning for success, not just what you call "Luck".

In many cases is accepting delayed gratification over immediate but lessor gratification.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

In many cases is accepting delayed gratification over immediate but lessor gratification.

That is the definition of being a Christian.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

As I've mentioned numerous times,  a unique aspect of our health care financing system is that it is in large part employer-based - and of course employers can choose whether or not to offer health benefits (most larger employers do, many smaller employers don't).   

But we're not randomly assigned to employers.  We all compete for better jobs, and for jobs that have the best overall compensation packages.  How is your argument any different, in substance, from saying that a person earning $80k isn't any more deserving of that salary than someone earning $30k?  Is that difference in wages unfair/arbitrary as well?

[bilo]

You really don't give a damn for any people who plan their careers and work hard, do you?

I am 'Lucky' in your book to be one of eleven kids who worked since ten to go to college, plan out my education and career and act accordingly to succeed when others chose different paths?

I call 'Lucky' a Ted Kennedy who never worked a day in his life and drew from daddy's ill-gotten wealth a life of babes, drinking and frivolty while polluting the American well and not having to suffer the consequences of his ill-advised actions like killing a woman.

Readers' Digest had an article many years ago which was something like "How Lucky People Got That Way". In it was hard work and positioning for success, not just what you call "Luck".

 

Not much to add other than wealth tends not to last as it's passed on. Usually within a couple generations it's gone because the people that followed the creator of the wealth just don't have the same drive, vision, and willingness to sacrifice.

[jmyrlefuller]

That Communist claptrap doesn't fly here on this board, despite your daily attempts to peddle it here.

INVAR said "Communist." Drink!

This is what you wanted, INVAR. You screamed bloody murder about every bill proposed, saying it wasn't good enough, and now Obamacare stands.

What's your address? I want you to pay the mandates I incurred.

[INVAR]

INVAR said "Communist." Drink!

This is what you wanted, INVAR. You screamed bloody murder about every bill proposed, saying it wasn't good enough, and now Obamacare stands.
What's your address? I want you to pay the mandates I incurred.

Yes, because I somehow in your perverted estimation I magically cast a  deciding vote by demanding the GOP keep their promises on a message board.

You are welcome to come and try to make me pay the mandates the Democrat Party imposed on all of us by passing a multi-thousand page bill not a single person read before it was made into a 'law' in the middle of the night without a single Republican vote.

I will always scream bloody murder about making Communism our form of government.  I find it instructive so many of you think compromising with Communism is a good thing. 

You've been played for a fool by your party - who could have defunded this monstrosity long ago.  But they have no spine and actually want the same Statism the Democrats want because they think they can manage it better.

[Jazzhead]

You really don't give a damn for any people who plan their careers and work hard, do you?

I am 'Lucky' in your book to be one of eleven kids who worked since ten to go to college, plan out my education and career and act accordingly to succeed when others chose different paths?

I call 'Lucky' a Ted Kennedy who never worked a day in his life and drew from daddy's ill-gotten wealth a life of babes, drinking and frivolty while polluting the American well and not having to suffer the consequences of his ill-advised actions like killing a woman.

Readers' Digest had an article many years ago which was something like "How Lucky People Got That Way". In it was hard work and positioning for success, not just what you call "Luck".

What the hell are you talking about?  I've never denigrated hard work and positioning for success.  It's the system that I'm objecting to - why should the fact and quality of your health care be so dependent on the employer you happen to work for?    It's an arbitrary distinction between two folks with equal drive and ambition and equal virtue - one gets cancer and beats it, and the other gets cancer and either succumbs for lack of health coverage, or is bankrupted in the process.   

The difference is arbitrary, and life-altering.   What's fair about that?   Shouldn't there be a better than tying good health insurance to the vicissitudes of employment?     

[Jazzhead]

INVAR said "Communist." Drink!

This is what you wanted, INVAR. You screamed bloody murder about every bill proposed, saying it wasn't good enough, and now Obamacare stands.

What's your address? I want you to pay the mandates I incurred.

There's no happier person on this board right now than INVAR.  He gets to keep his ObamaCare.   

[INVAR]

Shouldn't there be a better than tying good health insurance to the vicissitudes of employment?   

Here's a novel idea that sails right over the heads of your average Socialist....

...WHY NOT HAVE EVERYONE PAY FOR THEIR OWN INSURANCE AND HEALTHCARE?

You know - the same way you have to pay for your own vehicle, mortgage and clothes?

Oh wait - maybe you don't and you get a nice big fat subsidy I pay for on the first of every month.

There's no happier person on this board right now than INVAR.  He gets to keep his ObamaCare.   

As if my voice had any impact on the morons in the Senate.

The feckless GOP had absolutely no desire to repeal it, despite all their promises and despite the years of kabuki theater with all those repeal bills they knew were going to be crushed.

It's not a matter of being happy.  Unlike you, I don't accept or support the poison of Socialism and Communism, regardless of the cretins and parties that promote it and regardless of how small the dosage is.  But then I'm not the one who who preaches the benefits of cancer in the body and warns that we cannot remove it or get rid of it but instead we have to learn to die with dignity by coexisting with it.

I do not compromise my principles.  Ever.

I do not care if I am the only one on the planet that has them.

[INVAR]

There's no happier person on this board right now than INVAR.

On second thought you may have some prescience.

I'm happy that maybe now, enough Conservatives will wake up to the fact that the party they assumed was going to do what they always promise, is good for jack and shit.

Time to move on to a party made of, by and for Conservatives.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[Free Vulcan]

Liar.  I called "lucky" those fortunate to work for big corporations that offer health benefits.  Plenty of us work like dogs for smaller companies that cannot afford such benefits.  Yeah, I'd call that luck - since the difference is attributable to neither hard work nor virtue.

You DO understand that the reason for that is that companies cannot pool outside their own employee base, something that is not resolved in this bill?

[txradioguy]

There's no happier person on this board right now than INVAR.  He gets to keep his ObamaCare.

Your attempts at protection suck.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

What the hell are you talking about?  I've never denigrated hard work and positioning for success.  It's the system that I'm objecting to - why should the fact and quality of your health care be so dependent on the employer you happen to work for?    It's an arbitrary distinction between two folks with equal drive and ambition and equal virtue - one gets cancer and beats it, and the other gets cancer and either succumbs for lack of health coverage, or is bankrupted in the process.   

The difference is arbitrary, and life-altering.   What's fair about that?   Shouldn't there be a better than tying good health insurance to the vicissitudes of employment?   

You attribute hard work to being lucky.  You obviously do not know the meaning of hard work if you denigrate someone who decides to work for a company or industry that he chooses BECAUSE it will offer a reward for his services.  Luck?  Go get ahold of Ted Kennedy's ghost.  He has a lot to say on the subject.

We choose our own path in this country.  America is the land of opportunity.

[libertybele]

From what I've seen this bill sucked.

That said, I don't have any faith the Republicans can put anything better forward.   So much for having the House, Senate and the White House.   Fat lotta nuthin

To expect different results from the same lousy liberal RINO leadership in the Senate and House is being delusional at best; as absolutely nothing changed.  The same old country club is still in place and so far they are indicating that they are going to do whatever they can to ensure that their country club remains in tact.

In 2018, all House seats are up for re-election. Currently, the GOP holds the majority in the House by 47 seats; so the DEMS would have to gain 48 seats to capture the majority.  In the Senate, there are 34 seats up of which 25 are held by Democrats. The DEMS will only need to gain 3 seats to take control.

[INVAR]

In 2018, all House seats are up for re-election. Currently, the GOP holds the majority in the House by 47 seats; so the DEMS would have to gain 48 seats to capture the majority.  In the Senate, there are 34 seats up of which 25 are held by Democrats. The DEMS will only need to gain 3 seats to take control.

I can care less what seats the GOP has versus what the DEMS have.  It doesn't matter which of them hold the most - the results are the same with some slight variances of imbecility.  The fruits of this Congress are no different than that of 2015.

In 2010 the Democrats rammed multiple thousand page bills through in the middle of the night without a single representative having read the bill. 

Now that is precedent and the GOP does the same thing - except they have as yet to ramrod anything through that was not Democrat-approved first.

Oh, we got Gorsuch on SCOTUS after Scalia was.... taken out.  Big wippdey do.  We have yet to see how he will actually rule.