Author Topic: With Latest Angry Tweet, Trumps Sets Off On Violent "Collision Course" With Supreme Court  (Read 13653 times)

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Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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That shows the president having the power and not the courts.


If you really want to get down to brass tacks, the guys with guns have the power. Because the presidents underlings are under no obligation to follow an unlawful order. Quite the opposite.

Online Hoodat

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Well those days are over.

If you heard the so-called hearing last night you would see that the career DOJ lawyer was pathetic in arguing the ruling, this is why we need Sessions over there right now.

The case should have been argued by the solicitor general.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Emjay

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I don't see anger in the tweet or foresee actual violence in any clash with the courts. That tweet probably reflects what a majority of people believe.

The Dems are totally out of touch with most Americans.  All we have to do is look at the disasters that happened to France and other European countries with their wide open policies leading to a great influx of Muslims.  I know we can't say anything negative about Muslims, but they have very different values from most of us and many of their beliefs are negative to other faiths.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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There is no reliable vetting from the countries named.  It's only common sense to do it ourselves.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Smokin Joe

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I think the argument holds up fine - black robes, red coats. Different garb, same tyranny.

I'll go farther and assert that the current tyranny is worse by orders of magnitude. King Georges's resulted in thousands of deaths. Roe v Wade has resulted in multiplies millions.
There are two remedies for Judicial Tyranny at the SCOTUS level:

Impeachment
Constitutional Amendment removing that power from consideration and making that specific power constitutional.

Both of these are Constitutional and proper.
Just because the other guys did it wrong, doesn't make it right if we do it the same way.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Sensationalist nonsense! I'll just call for pizza on my cell. I don't even have a landline to go down anymore. That is soooo 2000s.
My landline has been more reliable than my cell, if I look back to when I first got a cell phone--or for that matter even the last decade.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Both go to the issue of the people's right to be secure in their property. "Existing law" that is built on rotten foundations is the construction material of the long chain of abuses.
The NDAA and The Patriot Act are the workarounds to the Third Amendment, giving the Executive Branch the authority to give the go-ahead for the confiscation of ANY privately owned assets, from vehicles to fuel to food to weapons and ammo to money in times of 'crisis', and I have little doubt that "shelter" would be moot at that point. They just take your home, and turn you out.
The horses are out of that barn already. They don't need for you to 'put them up', they can just take your stuff and fend for themselves.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Oh, please.  You didn't like his decision, so he's "rogue."  I actually read his decision -- did you? -- and his legal rationale is reasonable, even if you don't agree with it.  He ruled that the fines related to the individual mandate are a tax (which they are), whatever else Congress might have called them; and recognized that Congress is authorized to levy taxes. 

The fact that you disagree with a judge does not make him "rogue."  You're just engaging in name-calling.
But he blew it. The penalty originated in the Senate, and as a "tax" (which we had repeatedly been assured by the supporters of the legislation it was NOT) has to originate in the House, where all revenue measures are Constitutionally required to originate.
Even with his little rewrite the law would be unconstitutional.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Doug Loss

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There are two remedies for Judicial Tyranny at the SCOTUS level:

Impeachment
Constitutional Amendment removing that power from consideration and making that specific power constitutional.

Both of these are Constitutional and proper.
Just because the other guys did it wrong, doesn't make it right if we do it the same way.

There's a third.  Congress can pass a law contradicting the USSC ruling and declare it outside the jurisdiction of the USSC.  Article III, Section 2, Clause 2:

" In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Smokin Joe

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There's a third.  Congress can pass a law contradicting the USSC ruling and declare it outside the jurisdiction of the USSC.  Article III, Section 2, Clause 2:

" In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."
Yes, Thanks!  888high58888
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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There are two remedies for Judicial Tyranny at the SCOTUS level:

Impeachment
Constitutional Amendment removing that power from consideration and making that specific power constitutional.

Both of these are Constitutional and proper.
Just because the other guys did it wrong, doesn't make it right if we do it the same way.

There is actually a third!  Read this VERY carefully and see what I'm talking about:

Article III

Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.
In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

 The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed
I emphasized the oft overlooked but never the less still there part!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline r9etb

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But he blew it. The penalty originated in the Senate, and as a "tax" (which we had repeatedly been assured by the supporters of the legislation it was NOT) has to originate in the House, where all revenue measures are Constitutionally required to originate.
Even with his little rewrite the law would be unconstitutional.

IIRC, the method used -- albeit slimy and very crooked -- was nevertheless within the permissible scope of the rules established within each house, in accordance with the Constitution.  The "beard" bill was in fact a House-generated revenue bill.  And then as part of reconciliation the contents of that bill were gutted and replaced, but the "wrapper" was still a revenue bill.  So the action met the letter of the Constitution, if not its spirit. 

The one big problem with a having a written Constitution is that judges must rule based on the letter of the law, not its spirit; and clever crooks can and do take advantage of that.  Nothing in Reid's action violated the letter of the Constitution.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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There are two remedies for Judicial Tyranny at the SCOTUS level:

Impeachment
Constitutional Amendment removing that power from consideration and making that specific power constitutional.

Both of these are Constitutional and proper.
Just because the other guys did it wrong, doesn't make it right if we do it the same way.


 :thumbsup:

Silver Pines

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That's what the observation period is for.  At the same time they do such stuff, they are also agitating in their places of residence.  So we'd easily be able to observe such behavior and kick them out.


@HonestJohn

Why invite them in to begin with?  It's clear that they're nothing but a burden on Europe.  If we can't learn from that, if we decide to ignore the truth that's before us because it's not comfortable to acknowledge, we would deserve what we brought upon ourselves.

I mean, that really makes no sense at all to me.  We're supposed to watch refugee crime exploding over there, but import them regardless to see how it turns out, and kick them out if we have problems?  Why?

Besides, you know how it goes.  Once they're here, the left will raise hell to keep them, regardless of who they rape and murder.


Offline r9etb

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Why invite them in to begin with?  It's clear that they're nothing but a burden on Europe.  If we can't learn from that, if we decide to ignore the truth that's before us because it's not comfortable to acknowledge, we would deserve what we brought upon ourselves.

I mean, that really makes no sense at all to me.  We're supposed to watch refugee crime exploding over there, but import them regardless to see how it turns out, and kick them out if we have problems?  Why?

Besides, you know how it goes.  Once they're here, the left will raise hell to keep them, regardless of who they rape and murder.

The first problem is that anything Trump did was going to generate a virulent reaction, and Trump's ham-fisted handling of the issue made it much more difficult to discuss it rationally.

The second problem is that this discussion conflates at least three essentially separate issues, and the nature of our public discourse doesn't allow for dealing with them separately.  As I see it, the issues are:

1.  Screening for terrorists.  This is a real issue, and a rational screening process is necessary. 

2.  Dealing with refugees.  This is a real and serious human rights issue, involving millions of refugees.  The questions are how, and where.  Europe's solution is to let them into the country and put them on welfare, and that's certainly one way to deal with it.  But it's not the only way.  Unfortunately, neither the emotional left nor the emotional right will permit a rational conversation about options.

3.  Immigration.  There is a real need for a rational and enforceable immigration policy that allows people to come here, contingent on their assimilation and not imposing an undue burden on the rest of us.  On this, too, it's difficult for the emotional left or the emotional right to discuss this rationally.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:13:22 pm by r9etb »

Wingnut

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Because basic human kindness...

...that's why.

When people are fleeing for their lives, one does not slam one's door in their face.

Or were you aghast that America took in Cubans and anyone fleeing the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact countries?

---

And I'm not talking about the majority of 'refugees' that came to Europe last year, as many were from Africa and Afghanistan.  Those are not refugees but those seeking a better life for themselves and their families - ie: normal immigrants.

Those get handled by standard means.

I think it is only fair we do our part to decrease the worlds surplus population.  If that population is Muslim, that is just a bonus.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Because basic human kindness...

...that's why.

When people are fleeing for their lives, one does not slam one's door in their face.

Or were you aghast that America took in Cubans and anyone fleeing the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact countries?

---

And I'm not talking about the majority of 'refugees' that came to Europe last year, as many were from Africa and Afghanistan.  Those are not refugees but those seeking a better life for themselves and their families - ie: normal immigrants.

Those get handled by standard means.

Too bad most arent 'fleeing for their lives'. Repeating the leftist meme does not make it true.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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I think it is only fair we do our part to decrease the worlds surplus population.  If that population is Muslim, that is just a bonus.


I highly recommend this opinion piece by David P. Goldman. 


https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2014/8/12/shermans-300000-and-the-caliphates-3-million/
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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There are two remedies for Judicial Tyranny at the SCOTUS level:

Impeachment
Constitutional Amendment removing that power from consideration and making that specific power constitutional.

Both of these are Constitutional and proper.
Just because the other guys did it wrong, doesn't make it right if we do it the same way.


Aristos À la lanterne!     


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%80_la_lanterne
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Silver Pines

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@HonestJohn

Quote
Because basic human kindness...

...that's why.

Allowing someone into your home when the evidence shows that he might very well want to rape or kill you is not kindness.  It's insanity.

Quote
When people are fleeing for their lives, one does not slam one's door in their face.

When many in their number are criminals, rapists, assaulters, thieves, and worse...and when imams have promised to seed the bunch with terrorists, I certainly can, and will.  Without hesitation.

The majority of the refugees are young men.  Don't you find that odd?


Quote
Or were you aghast that America took in Cubans and anyone fleeing the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact countries?

I was very young then and hardly knew politics existed, so I had no reaction at the time.  But my answer now would be no, and do you know why?

Because neither the Cubans nor the Eastern Europeans brought with them a wave of crime. 




Offline Smokin Joe

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@HonestJohn

Why invite them in to begin with?  It's clear that they're nothing but a burden on Europe.  If we can't learn from that, if we decide to ignore the truth that's before us because it's not comfortable to acknowledge, we would deserve what we brought upon ourselves.

I mean, that really makes no sense at all to me.  We're supposed to watch refugee crime exploding over there, but import them regardless to see how it turns out, and kick them out if we have problems?  Why?

Besides, you know how it goes.  Once they're here, the left will raise hell to keep them, regardless of who they rape and murder.
Precisely.

Is it suddenly going to come up wonderful because We do it?

I think we have seen that mentality before, with every wannabe Communist/Socialist out there. Learning from someone else's mistakes without having to repeat them is a sign of budding intelligence.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Just tweeted again:
Quote



Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump  1h1 hour ago
More
 SEE YOU IN COURT, THE SECURITY OF OUR NATION IS AT STAKE!




Online DCPatriot

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@HonestJohn

Allowing someone into your home when the evidence shows that he might very well want to rape or kill you is not kindness.  It's insanity.

When many in their number are criminals, rapists, assaulters, thieves, and worse...and when imams have promised to seed the bunch with terrorists, I certainly can, and will.  Without hesitation.

The majority of the refugees are young men.  Don't you find that odd?


I was very young then and hardly knew politics existed, so I had no reaction at the time.  But my answer now would be no, and do you know why?

Because neither the Cubans nor the Eastern Europeans brought with them a wave of crime.

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Smokin Joe

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Because basic human kindness...

...that's why.

When people are fleeing for their lives, one does not slam one's door in their face.

Or were you aghast that America took in Cubans and anyone fleeing the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact countries?

---

And I'm not talking about the majority of 'refugees' that came to Europe last year, as many were from Africa and Afghanistan.  Those are not refugees but those seeking a better life for themselves and their families - ie: normal immigrants.

Those get handled by standard means.
Those were not 'normal' immigrants. Only 30% of those could be described as 'families', the rest were service age males.

An old west litmus test was the presence of women and children in the group in what would be considered to be ordinary numbers. If they were absent, the probability of the group being a war party or a raiding force was significantly higher. If the women and children were there, they may have been hunting or just moving camp.

If it was not for taqiya, being Christian could be one check for refugee status.
The grim reality is that mixed in with those who claim to be fleeing repression (and many are) are the few who have malignant intent.
As for the Muslims among them, there will always exist the desire to convert the US to Islam, and achieve the Caliphate. You just can't change that fundamental precept of Islam.

We are already teaching ESL (English as a Second Language) classes, already offering services in languages other than those of our founders, at least written with pretty much the same alphabet. Beyond ordinary tendencies for xenophobia and distrust remains the consideration that relatively few Americans can read the script of arabic nations, any more than they can read chinese or japanese writing. At least, at present, neither the Chinese nor Japanese are looking to subjugate entire populations based on religious considerations, but in any of those languages, posters could be put up announcing the time and date to blow up your neighbor and most people would be oblivious to the announcement they just could not read. A website which appears to be absolutely friendly could post 'jihad day' in the corner or a sidebar ad, and what average American would know? It is a 'code' in plain sight, even without idioms and euphemisms.

Look to the enclaves of Somalis in the Minneapolis/St Paul vicinity, and Islamic enclaves elsewhere, and you will see there is often little desire to assimilate, to become "American", and this adds to the significant burden we already have of people who do not comprehend our Constitution, Founding Documents, the philosophy behind them, nor do they really care except to invoke them to get special considerations. We see this everywhere from Dearborn, MI to Paris, France, and it has tremendous potential for or already causes problems, as those enclaves become ruled by de facto Sharia law as they become no-go zones for LEOs.

With the assimilation problem we already have, I think we should look at the way other countries handle immigration: What skills do the potential immigrants have? Can/have they been vetted, insofar as hostile intent/actions/tendencies toward America and Americans?
What is the potential that they will become 'radicalized' while here? What problems have they had? How do/can we avoid that here?
The obvious answer is to not bring it here, and thus not have to 'cure' it.

Would you want them living next door?  On all sides? Not just in some other town far away, not even just across town?

If we can't find good answers to those questions, why let them in until we can? After all, the entrance of potential terrorist elements (beyond mere drug cartels and that associated violence and the Communist/Socialist agitations of the La Raza set) through our southern border is an issue which has been raised in conjunction with the illegal immigration issue (Although it seems the average Mexican male can grow a better looking beard, the hostiles blend in nicely) and has been a main impetus for securing that border, beyond the obvious problems of drug importation and crime.

Immigration has gone from accepting a few to the death of a thousand cuts, between those who won't assimilate, to the load on LEOs, social and other services, and the general drag on the economy. Allowing time for the current situation here to be sorted out and those present to assimilate and learn English is a good idea. While there are those who genuinely are threatened, they have options other than the US as well, and we can far better afford to be picky about who we let in.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Aristos À la lanterne!     


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%80_la_lanterne
I'm not sure the Judge Roy Bean defense would be seen as applicable, even as a group defense. Those black robes have a tendency to 'hang' together.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 01:11:32 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis