A lot of conservative pundits have hitched their stars to Donald Trump. What if he loses?

[goatprairie]

Disagree.  Trump won because of the convoluted primary season which should be reformed immediately..  Most people were against Trump even in the early primaries.  But with 17 candidates, his opposition was divided and diluted.  Trump might have been the only candidate a lot of people have ever heard of.  He still lost almost 2/3 of the vote in the early primaries.  Ted Cruz was a virtual unknown to most people outside of Texas at that point.

The Media elected Trump because every word he spoke was broadcast nationally.  He had an early appeal that even I felt because it was refreshing to hear someone so unabashedly politically incorrect.  Thinking people immediately realized the downside of Trump.  The way, way downside.

Without his name recognition and the free ads by the press, Trump would never have won.

Yes....what you said....uh.... I mean wrote.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Wow, do I disagree with you here, @Once-Ler !

You obviously haven't had her fangs buried into you personally.  There's no way she's the same person she was before Trump.  If she is, she was hiding a lot from all of us.

Well we have to disagree on somethings once in awhile or life would get boring.  I remember the back and forth between you two, and as I recall you got in a few zingers too, but your right RIV has never said anything to me that I couldn't forgive as heat of the moment obstinance...but then RIV were never what I would call friends, and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you and RIV were online buddies before Trump.  Barbs and slings sting a lot harder when they come from someone you like.  Sometimes those wounds never heal.

[musiclady]

Well we have to disagree on somethings once in awhile or life would get boring.  I remember the back and forth between you two, and as I recall you got in a few zingers too, but your right RIV has never said anything to me that I couldn't forgive as heat of the moment obstinance...but then RIV were never what I would call friends, and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you and RIV were online buddies before Trump.  Barbs and slings sting a lot harder when they come from someone you like.  Sometimes those wounds never heal.

Oh, I can zing with the best of them, as you well know......... but this is different.  There have been attacks on my looks (actually, I'm quite attractive!  ), and my very person.  Really below the belt.

Most of my comments have been that she's mean...... and I doubt that many people here disagree with that.

I think like with you, we were very friendly acquaintances before, but the claws came out when I started saying things against Trump.  For the most part, she reacted to things I said about Trump with nastiness about me (starting with a very stupid reference to some teacher she didn't like.  Really dumb stuff, and she's still at it.   ).

It's neither here nor there really because nasty words coming from a person who doesn't know you at all don't really hurt, but I think the things she's said and done remove any possibility of reconciliation after this Trump mess is over barring some significant repentance on her part....... and I don't see that coming.

But you're right.  You and I have to disagree about something, and I'd rather have it be that you're nicer than I am, than anything else. 

[Bigun]

Well then I think you are letting them off easy my friend.  You are an absolute terror to argue against!

I'm not letting them off at all! It's just that they have these little hidey holes that I'm not allowed to enter! 

Thanks for the flowers!   

[musiclady]

I'm not letting them off at all! It's just that they have these little hidey holes that I'm not allowed to enter! 

Thanks for the flowers!   

Oh, but if you could, you'd give it to 'em good!   

[Victoria33]

FWIW, I will be cleaning out my ignore after the season is over... But probably not until.

@roamer

My Ignore will stay exactly like it is now.  I don't put one on unless it is necessary forever.

[Smokin Joe]

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I'm just saying the arguments are out there.

No problem, I have seen those. Funny, they are easy enough to articulate, but are not so often cited.

[txradioguy]

In many ways they are as narcissistic as Trump and Bubbette!

@sneakypete

Nailed it.

[Suppressed]

@Smokin Joe, apologies for the late reply...I've been in the field.

So you would say those who were fired upon and did not get out of the Waco (Mt. Carmel) Building complex were suicides, not murdered by an overzealous government?

70% of the planet is covered by water. In much of the rest of it, for most people, only a miserable death remains from the arctic cold, jungle critters, dehydration in the desert, or an alpine death. Some of us would fight to stay alive and quite probably die a miserable death. Others might accept the more rapid outcome. 

Jesus was divine; those in Waco were not. 

The theologians' argument is that Jesus chose death, not that it was imposed upon Him...for what human could impose something upon God?

Actually, the church condemned suicide at the Council of Arles in 452, well before the First Council of Braga in 561. Suicide involves committing an act which leads to one's death.

If I recall correctly, the Council of Arles dealt with the treatment of slaves, that the master wasn't condemned if a slave committed suicide.  Still, that's hundreds of years before the Church reversed Christian tradition.

Being killed by someone else may on occasion be considered self-sacrifice, but suicide? If a soldier is killed trying to retrieve a wounded comrade under fire, is that suicide? How about being killed in action in a volunteer army? How about a First Responder who is crushed by debris? Would you say the firemen on 9/11 were suicides? The priest who gave last rites to the dead and dying who had jumped? Those in the Pentagon who could not run from the office to safety and maybe looked at the oncoming plane? Your examples are flawed.

Again, the soldier isn't making a choice between survival and suicide, like Jesus did.  He can't just wave his hand and deflect the bullets.

Oh, I'm plenty angry. I never hired anyone who supported Obama, and now the pool of prospects has thinned considerably. That is just one thing going forward.

But I will not be compelled. You can't make me. You can kill me, but you can't make me. There are limits to the power of any tyrant wannabe if people only refuse to comply.

Good!  My point is merely that the word "suicide" is being demonized.

If I am killed for not complying, that is a definitive act by someone else who would perform an act leading to my death because I refused to be compelled to violate my principles, abandon my God, to sin. Had they not performed that act, I would live. My death is the direct result of their willingness to murder me or get me to submit. Failure to submit is not suicide, my death would be murder.  Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

They can't compel me, either. I am fully aware that I will be one of the first dragged out in the middle of the night if tyrants get their way.  Even if I could walk free with a single word, I won't break my conscience to do so.  The guilt is on them, not on me.

This does bring us back to the topic of the thread.  If we look at parallels to Germany in the 20s and 30s, we see a similar split between the alt-right and the leftists in our country.  In Germany, the Nazis beat the left.  I wonder whether the alt-right thinks they'll prevail in 21st Century USA if it turns even more nasty.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe, apologies for the late reply...I've been in the field.

 If we look at parallels to Germany in the 20s and 30s, we see a similar split between the alt-right and the leftists in our country.  In Germany, the Nazis beat the left.  I wonder whether the alt-right thinks they'll prevail in 21st Century USA if it turns even more nasty.

No problem. Perhaps. Between a few technologies which can be anything from game changers to force multipliers, it is tough to say who, or what philosophies will prevail, and where they will.  The other monkey in the birdcage is the question of removing tech from an enemy's toolbox, potentially crippling their capabilities (by forcing them or their population to go low tech).  The latter has advantages for factions already adroit in a low tech environment, but could severely impact those forces or even whole populations who are tech reliant.

More complex systems contain key and critical components, without which the system no longer works or is severely compromised. With the right knowledge and relatively little effort compared to conventional military conquest, control over portions of the populace or complete chaos could be accomplished. Those results could be either temporary or, for all practical purposes, permanent. By 'permanent', I mean of sufficient duration the recapture or rehabilitation of the system is moot: the damage is done, the goals met or objective attained.

Whoever is willing and able to break the most eggs will likely have the biggest omelette, whether they use official or clandestine means to accomplish their goals.

[Right_in_Virginia]

For those who are new and don't know Right in Virginia, a little more than a year ago (before Trump) you all would have counted her as an ally.  She is a proud conservative who cares about the future of our country.  She has had posted many insightful comments, and usually lets the personal stuff slide off her back because IMO she has a truck load of confidence and self integrity and she is smart as a whip.

We all have our bad days, and we are all on edge because we realize the implications of this election.  It takes a lot of guts to express an unpopular opinion to peers you respect and admire.  And when those peer are unable or unwilling to see your POV, it is natural to lash out and get angry.  That is not the RIV I've come to know, respect and admire.

We have to stop beating up our own guys, and pick up the pieces of this election someday.

There are some posters that deserve to be on ignore.  You do yourself a disservice ignoring RiV.

Thank you for the kind words @Once-Ler

[Right_in_Virginia]

Wow, do I disagree with you here, @Once-Ler !

You obviously haven't had her fangs buried into you personally.  There's no way she's the same person she was before Trump.  If she is, she was hiding a lot from all of us.

My only permanent IGNORE. 

I just wish she'd do me the same favor and not say vile things about me behind my back.

And all because I don't support Trump.

FWIW, not supporting Trump has nothing to do with my opinion   

[roamer_1]

@roamer

My Ignore will stay exactly like it is now.  I don't put one on unless it is necessary forever.

 

Of course, you are welcome to do as you see as fitting.

In my own case, forming an opinion of someone during such an upheaval is certainly valid - Just not always true. It is inherent for me that I forgive, lest the hate that used to govern me gain sway once again. Folks do stupid sh*t under pressure. Hopefully they learn from their error, and there has to be room for that to occur.

On the other hand, another aspect: Those who do not fail under fire... Those whose principles cause them to stand upon solid ground, regardless of fear, regardless of the pied-piper of following the crowd, regardless of the sh*t-storm swirling around them... These have earned my undying respect, as they were able to remain. These are the rock-ribbed (and y'all know who you are) whose word can be taken without mixture or guarantee. They are who they are, in the most adamantine way.  These are true Conservatives.

And in that I find priceless value coming out from these troubling times.

[Sanguine]

Of course, you are welcome to do as you see as fitting.

In my own case, forming an opinion of someone during such an upheaval is certainly valid - Just not always true. It is inherent for me that I forgive, lest the hate that used to govern me gain sway once again. Folks do stupid sh*t under pressure. Hopefully they learn from their error, and there has to be room for that to occur.

On the other hand, another aspect: Those who do not fail under fire... Those whose principles cause them to stand upon solid ground, regardless of fear, regardless of the pied-piper of following the crowd, regardless of the sh*t-storm swirling around them... These have earned my undying respect, as they were able to remain. These are the rock-ribbed (and y'all know who you are) whose word can be taken without mixture or guarantee. They are who they are, in the most adamantine way.  These are true Conservatives.

And in that I find priceless value coming out from these troubling times.

You're a wise man.

I just wanted to add one more type: those who are so intransigent that once they have formed an opinion they are unable to take new facts into account and maintain their original opinion in spite of changing information.   I'm not talking about changing one's belief system, but one's decision based upon known facts.

[roamer_1]

You're a wise man.

I just wanted to add one more type: those who are so intransigent that once they have formed an opinion they are unable to take new facts into account and maintain their original opinion in spite of changing information.   I'm not talking about changing one's belief system, but one's decision based upon known facts.

True enough, I would suppose - But then, facts are precious few in this current season. A lot of what purports to be 'known' is nothing more that twitterpated gossip.

[Sanguine]

True enough, I would suppose - But then, facts are precious few in this current season. A lot of what purports to be 'known' is nothing more that twitterpated gossip.

Yes, of course you have to separate the wheat from the chaff as well as possible.

[Bigun]

You're a wise man.

I just wanted to add one more type: those who are so intransigent that once they have formed an opinion they are unable to take new facts into account and maintain their original opinion in spite of changing information.   I'm not talking about changing one's belief system, but one's decision based upon known facts.

If you talk to people who deal with such things regularly they will tell you that one of the hardest things on earth is to convince the victims of a con that they have been conned!

[roamer_1]

If you talk to people who deal with such things regularly they will tell you that one of the hardest things on earth is to convince the victims of a con that they have been conned!

Blues Traveler's 'Hook' is instructive:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdz5kCaCRFM

It doesn't matter what I say
So long as I sing with inflection
That makes you feel I'll convey
Some inner truth or vast reflection
But I've said nothing so far
And I can keep it up for as long as it takes
And it don't matter who you are
If I'm doing my job then it's your resolve that breaks

Because the hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook brings you back
On that you can rely

There is something amiss
I am being insincere
In fact I don't mean any of this
Still my confession draws you near
To confuse the issue I refer
To familiar heroes from long ago
No matter how much Peter loved her
What made the Pan refuse to grow

Was that the hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook brings you back
On that you can rely

Suck it in, suck it in, suck it in
If you're Rin Tin Tin or Anne Boleyn
Make a desperate move or else you'll win
And then begin to see
What you're doing to me
This MTV is not for free
It's so PC it's killing me

So desperately I sing to thee of love
Sure but also rage and hate and pain and fear of self
And I can't keep these feeling on the shelf
I've tried, well no, in fact I lied
Could be financial suicide but I've got too much pride inside
To hide or slide
I'll do as I'll decide and let it ride till until I've died
And only then shall I abide by this tide
Of catchy little tunes
Of hip three minute diddies
I wanna bust all your balloons

I wanna burn of all your cities to the ground
But I've found, I will not mess around
Unless I play then hey
I will go on all day
Hear what I say
I have a prayer to pray
That's really all this was
And when I'm feeling stuck and need a buck
I don't rely on luck

Because the hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook
On that you can rely

[Sanguine]

If you talk to people who deal with such things regularly they will tell you that one of the hardest things on earth is to convince the victims of a con that they have been conned!

Maybe that's because they weren't looking at those new facts as they came in!   

[Bigun]

Maybe that's because they weren't looking at those new facts as they came in!   

No one sees what they refuse to look at! 

[Smokin Joe]

No one sees what they refuse to look at! 

Even the way the Scientific Method is taught has people starting with and defending preconceived notions, sometimes to the point of completely irrational behaviour (Anthropogenic Global Warming, for instance). 
When you don't know the answer, you have to let the data do the talking, let the evidence lead you to the answer.

For those who entered this political season with that mindset, the records, be they private dealings or recorded votes, vetoes or approvals, were there. Assertions one way or another had to be critically analyzed to separate the wheat from the chaff, the story below the misleading headline had to be read, tested against those records or otherwise for veracity, and that information either discarded as bogus or added to the evidence, for good or ill for every candidate.

A lot of people, apparently, just did not do that.

Sound bytes are fun, fast, easy, and unfortunately the weapon of choice for those preying on the lazy and misinformed who just want to believe. But that desire to believe can often belie a prejudice which will mask or discard evidence, leading to the wrong conclusion. Some things are just more complicated than what can be stuffed into a tweet or will likely be read in a Facebook or forum post, and will be hidden behind the "read more" in the comments section.

Some people just won't click on that to see it. All that thinking is just so hard, and they want their instant microwave saviour served up on a sliver platter, sans serious thought.

Add in the conditioning of centuries of cheering on our group/family/tribe/team/sect/faction/army without consideration, and the emotional appeal is strong, concise, and visceral, stimulating the limbic brain and tapping some primordial force within to urge action without thought. The cycle is complete, cut to commercial...a series of 15 to 30 second spots urging you to be one of the first 100 callers to get a 'special deal', or to 'call now before this deal runs out', or telling you you get a second one free (just pay shipping and handling).

But wait! There's more!

Just how much more is something we are going to find out.

[JustPassinThru]

If you talk to people who deal with such things regularly they will tell you that one of the hardest things on earth is to convince the victims of a con that they have been conned!

Once they're committed they're EMOTIONALLY INVESTED.

How many people have you talked to, who got a bad deal on a car?  Very few; and the few who did, either got ripped off so royally a lawyer promised he could make it good; or else the chump is claiming there was fraud or hidden facts.

They have vested need to be right, once they've picked a side.  They'll stick with the scam that's ripping them off, long after it's past being funny to onlookers.

[JustPassinThru]

Even the way the Scientific Method is taught has people starting with and defending preconceived notions, sometimes to the point of completely irrational behaviour (Anthropogenic Global Warming, for instance). 
When you don't know the answer, you have to let the data do the talking, let the evidence lead you to the answer.

The proper Scientific Method has NOTHING to do with this Glow Bull Warming hysteria.  They don't enter into it with an hypothesis and then test it under controlled conditions.

They burst out of their conferences in a panic, real or feigned, with COMPUTER MODELS, based on JIGGERED ALGORITHMS...as they run around in circles screaming WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!

Science and research has nothing to do with hysteria and spreading panic.  It has nothing to do with pointless action to "do something."  It has to do with presenting the facts as established through controlled testing of assertions, hypotheses...and then moving on to examine possible corrections.

What is coming from these climate "scientists" is artificial panic and hysteria...purchased by the government so as to panic the populace into allowing the government to grow to take control of the whole of the economy.

[Smokin Joe]

Once they're committed they're EMOTIONALLY INVESTED.

How many people have you talked to, who got a bad deal on a car?  Very few; and the few who did, either got ripped off so royally a lawyer promised he could make it good; or else the chump is claiming there was fraud or hidden facts.

They have vested need to be right, once they've picked a side.  They'll stick with the scam that's ripping them off, long after it's past being funny to onlookers.

It is much the same as dealing with a friend whose new infatuation is a slut or a he-ho. Trying to talk them down off of being 'in love' is hazardous duty, and often only cements their resolve to ride the road to perdition and misery. 
I used to wonder why so many movies centered on the high school years with almost fetishistic certainty. For a while I figured the appeal was just to a money spending demographic, but them I realized so much of America has never outgrown those years at a much deeper level.

It is that JV fervor that sways far too many people in all sorts of decisions, and makes them easy marks for con men, the whole while they insist they got a good deal.

[Smokin Joe]

The proper Scientific Method has NOTHING to do with this Glow Bull Warming hysteria.  They don't enter into it with an hypothesis and then test it under controlled conditions.

They burst out of their conferences in a panic, real or feigned, with COMPUTER MODELS, based on JIGGERED ALGORITHMS...as they run around in circles screaming WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!

Science and research has nothing to do with hysteria and spreading panic.  It has nothing to do with pointless action to "do something."  It has to do with presenting the facts as established through controlled testing of assertions, hypotheses...and then moving on to examine possible corrections.

What is coming from these climate "scientists" is artificial panic and hysteria...purchased by the government so as to panic the populace into allowing the government to grow to take control of the whole of the economy.

I fully agree. Start with a (testable) hypothesis and conduct experiments to see if it holds up.

Not: Start with a foregone conclusion and massage/edit the data or presentation methods to support it.--which is what appears a lot any more, not solid research.