First openly gay leader of a U.S. military service branch

[NavyCanDo]

Borrowing  a line from Blazing Saddles, There is no avoiding this conclusion, this thread is turning into Sh&t. 


We can debate like adults if openly gay people should be apponited to top leadership positions in the military, esspecially when the don't ask don't tell policy ended a not that many years ago.   But do we really need to go down the path widely accepted at TOS and alow gay bashing here?

Like others here have pointed out in their own lives, I work with gay people, and have a niece who is gay, and none of these people I know fit the pervert profile somebody is trying to broadbrush them with.

[DiogenesLamp]

Borrowing  a line from Blazing Saddles, There is no avoiding this conclusion, this thread is turning into Sh&t. 


We can debate like adults if openly gay people should be apponited to top leadership positions in the military, esspecially when the don't ask don't tell policy ended a not that many years ago.   But do we really need to go down the path widely accepted at TOS and alow gay bashing here?

By that, you mean the positions held by the vast majority of Americans throughout the vast majority of our history?   

I study this issue.   I've been studying it since the 1990s,   and people have no idea how the wool has been pulled over their eyes relating to this issue.   They are shocked to hear an opinion different from what the Liberal media has conditioned them to believe. 

Like others here have pointed out in their own lives, I work with gay people, and have a niece who is gay, and none of these people I know fit the pervert profile somebody is trying to broadbrush them with.

And how would you know?  Do you go to gay bars or hookups with them?   First of all,   I will point out that lesbians are very different creatures from male homosexuals.   I'm not going to get into  it,  (at this time)  but their behavior and motivation is at the opposite end of the spectrum from queer males.   

If you are basing your opinions on the behaviors of Lesbians,   you aren't going to be able to apply them to the crazy promiscuity demonstrated by the "gay"  males.   Queer males exhibit the male sex drive,   while queer females still exhibit the female sex drive.   


To get an idea of how this works in practice,   imagine you are a normal horny young male,   and then imagine that you have no moral inhibitions and that there are thousands of beautiful young girls who are eager to have sex with you the first time you meet them.    In other words,  Females with strong male sex drive,  instead of the more normal  less aggressive female sex drive.   


Well most young males would go crazy.   They would be hopping into two or three beds per day for days at a time.   They would do this for weeks,  until they were exhausted.   After a break,  they would resume for as long as they could keep it up.   (Believe me,  I know servicemen who were stationed in the Philippines,  and that is exactly what they did. ) 

So now imagine those thousands of young females were males,   with real male sex drive,  and that you were attracted to them,   and wanting to do to them what the normal males wanted to do with the females.  Imagine that,   and you will have an idea of what Male "gay"  culture is like.   


They will literally have thousands of partners in their lifetime.   Not 10 or 20,   Thousands.    Studies of the San Francisco bath houses (during their heyday)  demonstrated that they were having on average,  10  sexual encounters per night.   


You want to discuss this topic like adults?   Let's get into it.   I always encourage people to look up reliable sources of information regarding this topic.   The reality is far uglier than the fantasy story that has been pedaled by activists and the media.   (Same thing nowadays.)   

[sinkspur]

By that, you mean the positions held by the vast majority of Americans throughout the vast majority of our history?   

I study this issue.   I've been studying it since the 1990s,   and people have no idea how the wool has been pulled over their eyes relating to this issue.   They are shocked to hear an opinion different from what the Liberal media has conditioned them to believe. 



And how would you know?  Do you go to gay bars or hookups with them?   First of all,   I will point out that lesbians are very different creatures from male homosexuals.   I'm not going to get into  it,  (at this time)  but their behavior and motivation is at the opposite end of the spectrum from queer males.   

If you are basing your opinions on the behaviors of Lesbians,   you aren't going to be able to apply them to the crazy promiscuity demonstrated by the "gay"  males.   Queer males exhibit the male sex drive,   while queer females still exhibit the female sex drive.   


To get an idea of how this works in practice,   imagine you are a normal horny young male,   and then imagine that you have no moral inhibitions and that there are thousands of beautiful young girls who are eager to have sex with you the first time you meet them.    In other words,  Females with strong male sex drive,  instead of the more normal  less aggressive female sex drive.   


Well most young males would go crazy.   They would be hopping into two or three beds per day for days at a time.   They would do this for weeks,  until they were exhausted.   After a break,  they would resume for as long as they could keep it up.   (Believe me,  I know servicemen who were stationed in the Philippines,  and that is exactly what they did. ) 

So now imagine those thousands of young females were males,   with real male sex drive,  and that you were attracted to them,   and wanting to do to them what the normal males wanted to do with the females.  Imagine that,   and you will have an idea of what Male "gay"  culture is like.   


They will literally have thousands of partners in their lifetime.   Not 10 or 20,   Thousands.    Studies of the San Francisco bath houses (during their heyday)  demonstrated that they were having on average,  10  sexual encounters per night.   


You want to discuss this topic like adults?   Let's get into it.   I always encourage people to look up reliable sources of information regarding this topic.   The reality is far uglier than the fantasy story that has been pedaled by activists and the media.   (Same thing nowadays.)   

Your obsession with hating gay people is pathological.  One has to wonder about your own orientation for you to be this angry.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Your obsession with hating gay people is pathological.  One has to wonder about your own orientation for you to be this angry.

That's an ad hominem personal attack if I've ever seen one. BTW I've been to a gay wedding, so I'm not anti-gay myself.

[DiogenesLamp]

Your obsession with hating gay people is pathological.  One has to wonder about your own orientation for you to be this angry.

I am really surprised it took this long before someone tried to toss that ole chestnut out onto the floor.   

Congratulations!   You are the first to do it!     :)   


Oh,  and it isn't "hate".    I don't "hate"  people who think they are Dragons,  Chickens,   or Napoleon.   I think society needs to treat these people with concern,   but should not humor them in their delusions.   

Homosexuality is a sickness,   and it has always been a sickness.   The fact that they could remove it from the list of mental disorders by threatening and intimidating the Doctors of the APA does not change the fact that it *IS*   a mental disorder.  (Which is what most doctors will tell you in private if you ask them.)   


We are all experiencing another mental disorder in this nation.   It is the willingness to deny the truth of things when it makes people feel uncomfortable.   The common term for this has become "Political Correctness"   and it will have dire consequences before this is done.   


You see,   I look at humanity as History and Generations,   and I see all this modern crap we see is not new.   It's been done before,   and it will fail this time as well.    We are simply retroding old ground that was already covered by our ancestors,   it's just that most people don't have the knowledge or the grasp of history to see where it leads. 


This is why Bernie Sanders socialism is currently popular.   People aren't aware of how many times it has been tried,   and how many mountains of bodies serve as a monument to the misery and failure it produces.   Venezuela is having to learn that same old lesson all over again.   


It seems new generations simply cannot remember the lessons learned from older generations,   and needs must make the same mistakes all over again.   


I urge people to look at our society as a tiny little slice of the sweep of human history.   Expand your perceptions  and look at the bigger picture.   

[Dexter]

Clearly this gay military leader will spread his disease and make the entire military gay. The fact that he's gay also means he obviously lacks the credentials or ability to do his job, right? He must be a terrible soldier. Oh, and only straight people can be true patriots. In fact I bet that "queer" is just a terrorist in hiding. The military is doomed.

 

[Dexter]

No.  It just means that the more traditionally-minded younger males who form the core of our military recruiting pool will be that much less likely to join a military that is acquiring a reputation as being more about advancing social change than winning wars.

Young men have traditionally joined the military in part as a right of passage -- to prove/demonstrate manhood and courage to society at large.  And they often stay for the bonds of brotherhood that develop.  Adding chicks and gays to the mix (because that's how many will think of them) is going to result in the gradual erosion of image of the military as a repository of male virtues.  That is going to hurt recruiting significantly down the road.

The other thing I'd add is this -- we still take a lot of efforts to separate men and women within the military.  We don't have them share rooms, shower together, etc..  We give them separate restrooms, etc..  Why?  Well, one reason is because we know that young men (and often young women) have a difficult time keeping their libido under control, and separation by gender is one way we can limit the negative impact of that.  Unfortunately, that doesn't work when it comes to gays.

You realize there were gay people of all ranks in the military even before it became acceptable, right?

[Dexter]

No.  It just means that the more traditionally-minded younger males who form the core of our military recruiting pool will be that much less likely to join a military that is acquiring a reputation as being more about advancing social change than winning wars.

Young men have traditionally joined the military in part as a right of passage -- to prove/demonstrate manhood and courage to society at large.  And they often stay for the bonds of brotherhood that develop.  Adding chicks and gays to the mix (because that's how many will think of them) is going to result in the gradual erosion of image of the military as a repository of male virtues.  That is going to hurt recruiting significantly down the road.

The other thing I'd add is this -- we still take a lot of efforts to separate men and women within the military.  We don't have them share rooms, shower together, etc..  We give them separate restrooms, etc..  Why?  Well, one reason is because we know that young men (and often young women) have a difficult time keeping their libido under control, and separation by gender is one way we can limit the negative impact of that.  Unfortunately, that doesn't work when it comes to gays.

I can't speak for others, but I joined the military to serve my country. The military will be fine.

[mirraflake]

I am really surprised it took this long before someone tried to toss that ole chestnut out onto the floor.   

Congratulations!   You are the first to do it!     :)   


Oh,  and it isn't "hate".    I don't "hate"  people who think they are Dragons,  Chickens,   or Napoleon.   I think society needs to treat these people with concern,   but should not humor them in their delusions.   

Homosexuality is a sickness,   and it has always been a sickness.   The fact that they could remove it from the list of mental disorders by threatening and intimidating the Doctors of the APA does not change the fact that it *IS*   a mental disorder.  (Which is what most doctors will tell you in private if you ask them.)   


We are all experiencing another mental disorder in this nation.   It is the willingness to deny the truth of things when it makes people feel uncomfortable.   The common term for this has become "Political Correctness"   and it will have dire consequences before this is done.   


You see,   I look at humanity as History and Generations,   and I see all this modern crap we see is not new.   It's been done before,   and it will fail this time as well.    We are simply retroding old ground that was already covered by our ancestors,   it's just that most people don't have the knowledge or the grasp of history to see where it leads. 


This is why Bernie Sanders socialism is currently popular.   People aren't aware of how many times it has been tried,   and how many mountains of bodies serve as a monument to the misery and failure it produces.   Venezuela is having to learn that same old lesson all over again.   


It seems new generations simply cannot remember the lessons learned from older generations,   and needs must make the same mistakes all over again.   


I urge people to look at our society as a tiny little slice of the sweep of human history.   Expand your perceptions  and look at the bigger picture.

Have you actually met any gays and actually sat down with them and talked?

[DiogenesLamp]

Clearly this gay military leader will spread his disease and make the entire military gay.

He will further the efforts that were begun by Bill Clinton,  and massively accelerated by Barack Obama.   
Again,   look at all the male on male rapes that have occurred since "gays"   started serving openly.   





You want to make this into a joke,   and your little attempt at mockery is misguided because you said in jest what is actually not far from the truth.    Yes,   the military is getting "gayer",   and it will continue to get "gayer"  the longer this sort of influence keeps getting applied to it.   

The fact that he's gay also means he obviously lacks the credentials or ability to do his job, right?

Exactly.   People talk about the ability of a soldier to do his job;   Things like Marching,  Organizing,  shooting their weapon,  etc.   


Well Nazi soldiers were also good at these things,  but putting them in our army would have been a very bad idea,  because first and foremost the essential characteristic of a soldier is that he be on your side,  Ideologically and morally.   


What good does it do us to have excellent soldiers who pursue an agenda that is destructive to our nation?   Look at what Homosexual  Bradly Manning did to us?    How many men's lives have already been lost because we had a soldier that did not have a normal grasp of morality and loyalty?   

And before you say  "Well,  there are heterosexual soldiers (such as Johnathon Pollard) who sold us out too!"   I will point out that queer males make up 1.8% of the population.   You have to find 55 heterosexual soldiers who sold us out to even reasonably bring up the point.


Homosexual soldiers have always been considered a security risk because they don't operate with a normal grasp of morality.   There are many more examples in History  (Alger Hiss,  the Cambridge five,  etc)   

Their technical proficiency is entirely beside the point.    I'm sure Bradly Manning did his job adequately before he stabbed us in the back over a quarrel with his transgender boyfriend.   

He must be a terrible soldier. Only straight people can be true patriots. In fact I bet that "queer" is just a terrorist in hiding.

Not so far from the truth as you might think.   Again,  Bradly Manning helped the terrorist kill our people.   Andreas Lubitz,  (homosexual pilot of the German Wings airliner)   committed suicide with all his passengers.   Brandon Bostian,   Homosexual train engineer,  crashed his train in what some people suggest was a Andreas Lubitz style attempt at suicide,   but he changed his mind at the last moment.   


There is sometimes a price in blood to be paid for letting people who have sexually related mental issues into positions of power.   

The military is doomed.

 

   


If history is any guide,  the nation will be doomed. 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I can't speak for others

And if everyone in the military, or considering joining the military, thought like you do, it wouldn't affect recruiting/retention.  But they don't, and we both know that.  The military is the most traditionalist, conservative part of society.

It is difficult enough to navigate all the other personnel-related issues that have to be managed by a commander.  Interpersonal quarrels are just part of that headache, and the worst ones I ever saw were ones that involved females.  Guys, in general, act like idiots when their libidos are aroused, and romantic/sexual emotions generally are not a good fit when you are trying to develop unit cohesion and brotherhood.  This is just another headache that the military did not need.

[DiogenesLamp]

Have you actually met any gays and actually sat down with them and talked?

Plenty.   A lot of them have "issues"   way beyond just sex.   They are often nuts several different other ways as well.   


Have you ever sat down and asked any of them about their sex life.  Where they go,  what they do,  and how often?   

[mirraflake]

Plenty.   A lot of them have "issues"   way beyond just sex.   They are often nuts several different other ways as well.   


Have you ever sat down and asked any of them about their sex life.  Where they go,  what they do,  and how often?   

Some have issues  most don't.  Many who do have issues is due to meeting folks like yourself their entire lives.

The 3 gay men I mentioned I know very well. They are not the evil, 10 night  a men pervs you broadbrush.

[DiogenesLamp]

Some have issues  most don't.  Many who do have issues is due to meeting folks like yourself their entire lives.

People like me make them into drama queens and attention whores?   How do we do that? 

The 3 gay men I mentioned I know very well. They are not the evil, 10 night  a men pervs you broadbrush.

Well how many men per night is it?   Ask them.   Now if they are old,  ask them how many it was when they were young.   

[mirraflake]

People like me make them into drama queens and attention whores?   How do we do that? 

Where did that pop up? You said they had  a mental illness and they were suicidal etc. If I ran across people like you telling me I was the scourge of the planet since I was a little kid I would have issues as well.






Well how many men per night is it?   Ask them.   Now if they are old,  ask them how many it was when they were young.

I've known my SIL brother since 1982 and was even in the same fraternity-he is not as you say. I've known other gay men as well over the years and they are not the out of control sex pervs you claim gay are. Not saying there are not gay men like you portray.

[cato potatoe]

Do the enlisted members really care about this today?  Most of them are very young.  The gay debate is generational, even among conservatives. 

[DiogenesLamp]

I've known my SIL brother since 1982 and was even in the same fraternity-he is not as you say. I've known other gay men as well over the years and they are not the out of control sex pervs you claim gay are. Not saying there are not gay men like you portray.

Well that is unusual,   and demonstrably so.   How many young men do you know who would not take advantage of every pretty young girl who offered?   


In the gay community,   they are offering,   so someone not taking advantage of it is strange in a different way.   

[DiogenesLamp]

Do the enlisted members really care about this today?  Most of them are very young.  The gay debate is generational, even among conservatives.

It is "generational"   because the media (both news and entertainment)   have made large efforts to propagandize the public regarding the issue.    People growing up in the last 20 years have been fed a steady diet of "Gay people are normal!"   "Gay people are Fun!"   "Only mean people don't appreciate gayness!"   

And so forth.   

Let me tell you a story that you have probably never heard before.   I don't know how old you are,  but perhaps you have heard of this movie called "Silence of the Lambs"?   




Well that movie landed on the gay community in California like an atom bomb.   It smacked them hard,  and none of them saw it coming.    They threw a fit.  (No,  the rest of the country didn't hear about it because it wouldn't have helped the agenda.)   

The Gay community of California had a screaming rage meltdown over that movie,   and they applied this heat to the people who administrate the movie industry.    They were furious that a "gay"  character had been portrayed as a woman skinning serial killer pervert who wanted to wear a "woman"  suit because he was uncomfortable with his "gayness"   and wanted to be a woman.   


They demanded,  and got,   assurances from all the major studios that henceforth any scripts would be sent to a "gay"  revue board to insure that they presented "gay"  characters in a good,  or at least neutral light.     Yes,  they created a "Gay"  censorship board for movie scripts in Hollywood.


The board expanded it's reach from regulating scripts to eventually soliciting scripts with pro-gay messages,   and pro-gay characters.   It further expanded into television,   and has now influenced the line up of Television shows to present it's propaganda as a projection of "normal."   


This is how we got shows like "Will and Grace",   




"Glee", 



 and "Modern Family". 



("Modern Family" is also a subtle rebuke to the "Family Values"  crowd  for which Republicans campaigned in the 1990s and later.)   

  As a matter of fact,   a year or so ago I saw a study that broke down the incidence of "Gay"  characters,   or "gay"  actors in various television programs.    If I remember correctly,   out of 124 tv shows or programs,   80 something of them featured a "gay" character or actor.   


That works out to 67 percent representation for a subgroup that makes up only 1.8% of the overall population.   


Well,  the constant stream of propaganda has had it's effect,   and many people have now grown up thinking it's all sunshine and roses regarding all things "gay."   


*That*  is why this issue has become "generational."   The propaganda war made it that way.   

[Dexter]

You all realize gay people joined the military at probably the same rate they do today even when it was against the rules, right?

[DiogenesLamp]

You all realize gay people joined the military at probably the same rate they do today even when it was against the rules, right?

I very much doubt it.   If this were the case,   then why bother making the military "gay"  friendly?   Why appeal to them?   


Are you to tell me that the various efforts engaged in since Bill Scumbag Clinton were not to make "gays"   feel more comfortable in the military?   


Plus I think the numbers are increasing,  i.e.  the percentage of the population that considers itself "gay"   is going up.    Part of this is the effect of propaganda,   and part of this is the effect of the lessening of the normal attrition rate that has historical occurred regarding people who engage in "gay"  behavior,  which is very dangerous.     


Modern Medicine and Modern Communications have had a major impact on "gay"  survivability.   Had we the same population we have now,   but without the modern medicine techniques,  there are millions of "gay"  people who would not now be alive. 


We are living during a period of homosexual expansion in our population.    There have been such periods in the past,   but they generally ended up burning out as a result of attrition by disease.   We are currently holding back the disease,  and so we are in the course of an expansion. 

[Dexter]

I very much doubt it.   If this were the case,   then why bother making the military "gay"  friendly?   Why appeal to them?   

Oh, I don't know. Maybe so they don't have to hide in fear of being exiled with an unfavorable discharge just because of their sexual orientation.

Plus I think the numbers are increasing,  i.e.  the percentage of the population that considers itself "gay"   is going up.    Part of this is the effect of propaganda,   and part of this is the effect of the lessening of the normal attrition rate that has historical occurred regarding people who engage in "gay"  behavior,  which is very dangerous.     

Homosexuality is not a choice and it's not learned. Gay people can't choose to be straight any more than straight people can choose to be gay.
   

Modern Medicine and Modern Communications have had a major impact on "gay"  survivability.   Had we the same population we have now,   but without the modern medicine techniques,  there are millions of "gay"  people who would not now be alive. 


We are living during a period of homosexual expansion in our population.    There have been such periods in the past,   but they generally ended up burning out as a result of attrition by disease.   We are currently holding back the disease,  and so we are in the course of an expansion.

Every gay person I served with was just as deserving of that uniform as me. I've seen them fight, bleed and even die just as well as any other soldier. I believe your homophobia is detrimental to the future of conservatism.

[mirraflake]

Modern Medicine and Modern Communications have had a major impact on "gay"  survivability.   Had we the same population we have now,   but without the modern medicine techniques,  there are millions of "gay"  people who would not now be alive.


We are living during a period of homosexual expansion in our population.    There have been such periods in the past,   but they generally ended up burning out as a result of attrition by disease.   We are currently holding back the disease,  and so we are in the course of an expansion.



Plus I think the numbers are increasing,  i.e.  the percentage of the population that considers itself "gay"   is going up.    Part of this is the effect of propaganda,   and part of this is the effect of the lessening of the normal attrition rate that has historical occurred regarding people who engage in "gay"  behavior,  which is very dangerous.     

Wow, so you think gay people living longer due to medicine is dangerous. At least that is how I take your comment.

[mirraflake]

I very much doubt it.   If this were the case,   then why bother making the military "gay"  friendly?   Why appeal to them?   

A classmate joined the Navy in 1980. He came back on leave and told us about all the gays in the Navy. Nothing has changed.

[DiogenesLamp]

Wow, so you think gay people living longer due to medicine is dangerous. At least that is how I take your comment.

Apparently I needed to word that more clearly.   It is "gay"  sexual practices which are dangerous.   I could throw out a mountain of links to demonstrate this,   but anyone that's familiar with the issue is already very much aware of the highly risky nature of their sexual encounters.   

[DiogenesLamp]

A classmate joined the Navy in 1980. He came back on leave and told us about all the guys in the Navy. Nothing has changed.

That's a rather small  sample with which to arrive at a conclusion.