Liberty or Tyranny

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

As you well know there is a growing movement for just that here in Texas and if we get either HIllary or Trump for president I will be instantly onboard!

Wasn't that tried, once before? 

[Bigun]

Do you have a spare bedroom?  A loft?  Corner in a shed?  If the back holds up, I'm good at traditional manly-man chores.

You are welcome here anytime my friend! Anytime at all!

[Norm Lenhart]

Enjoy it? Won't you have to live in the same country? I'm not ok with the political situation, never have been. I'm just trying to tell you the reality of the situation.

So what is your solution then? Continue trying to nominate candidate who cannot and will not win?

If you pragmatists voted for them instead of 'pragmatically" they WOULD win. Simple math.

[Bigun]

Wasn't that tried, once before? 

Yes it was and for the exact same reasons! This is now ant that was then!

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

If you pragmatists voted for them instead of 'pragmatically" they WOULD win. Simple math.

I'll vote for Cruz. I'll vote for Alan Keyes. I'll vote for any principled candidate you want. They will still lose and go nowhere.

Great? So where does that get us?

[INVAR]

Enjoy it? Won't you have to live in the same country? I'm not ok with the political situation, never have been. I'm just trying to tell you the reality of the situation.

I do not think the vast,vast majority of people in this land have any idea what the *reality* of our situation actually is.

So what is your solution then? Continue trying to nominate candidate who cannot and will not win?

History teaches that we are past the point of stopping tyranny via civil means.

No Republic endures.  It is the most fragile of governing systems - and it requires a moral and religious people to maintain it.

We are no longer those people.

Exactly as you have excellently illustrated.  The superficial trumps principles.  Therefore, we lost what we were warned we would lose when we embrace the very things you have espoused.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I do not think the vast,vast majority of people in this land have any idea what the *reality* of our situation actually is.

History teaches that we are past the point of stopping tyranny via civil means.

No Republic endures.  It is the most fragile of governing systems - and it requires a moral and religious people to maintain it.

We are no longer those people.

Exactly as you have excellently illustrated.  The superficial trumps principles.  Therefore, we lost what we were warned we would lose when we embrace the very things you have espoused.

Ok, so what is your solution? Just accept the coming Gotterdamurung and be done with it? Pick up a weapon and overthrow the government via force?

[Norm Lenhart]

I'll vote for Cruz. I'll vote for Alan Keyes. I'll vote for any principled candidate you want. They will still lose and go nowhere.

Great? So where does that get us?

One vote closer than when this conversation began. If more did the same, we would win.

Or you can keep electing pragmatic candidates like Mitch McColnel, John Bhoner and their ilk and then go on the internet crying the blues that you didn't get the principled government you claim to prefer.

Now my tyrn. How, in detail please, do you propose to get America on track by consistently electing people you don't believe in, trust, or even want?

Any child inherently understands if he goes to the ice cream shop and orders strawberry he will not get chocolate.  Thats simply reality. Likewise, any thinking individual cannot logically conclude they will recieve x by putting their support behind Y. The world does not and never has worked that way. To think one gets something by supporting it's opposite is literally madness.

[Free Vulcan]

This discussion is getting so good we might have to split the topic off, even if we have strayed from the thread's intent.

@Bigun and I have discussed this a few times here - states are key. This is why the Founders set us up as they did. Not only can they do conservative things to stop the tide, but when, not if, DC becomes too financially impotent to do anything, it will be up to the states to step up and take leadership.

So as much as I'm interested in the Presidency and national activism, I'm much more into state activism.

[Free Vulcan]

Ok, so what is your solution? Just accept the coming Gotterdamurung and be done with it? Pick up a weapon and overthrow the government via force?

It likely won't come to that. DC will just run out of money to do anything, either by default of interest payments sucking all the tax dollars up. Then the states will have to act.

We may even remain a de facto country, but there will be nations within nations at that point. Coalitions or confederacies, call them what you will.

[Bigun]

Any child inherently understands if he goes to the ice cream shop and orders strawberry he will not get chocolate.  Thats simply reality. Likewise, any thinking individual cannot logically conclude they will recieve x by putting their support behind Y. The world does not and never has worked that way. To think one gets something by supporting it's opposite is literally madness.

I am SO stealing that line! It is just perfect! 

[Sanguine]

Do you have a spare bedroom?  A loft?  Corner in a shed?  If the back holds up, I'm good at traditional manly-man chores.

Come on down, Lando!  (Do you do dishes?)

[Norm Lenhart]

I am SO stealing that line! It is just perfect! 

Please do ;)

Not one person in the history of FR was ever able to counter it without devolving into leftist dogma.

[INVAR]

Ok, so what is your solution? Just accept the coming Gotterdamurung and be done with it? Pick up a weapon and overthrow the government via force?

The answer is self-evident as history teaches.

Once the consequences of unprincipled rulers already sown are experienced by far greater a number and by far deeper miseries, the concept of liberty and freedom itself will be seen as a threat - and in that environment, bloodbaths take place, led by those lofted up to messianic positions.

A people devoid of common morality and principles that the majority deem not to be pragmatic will simply lead to another French Revolution and Terror.

[Ghost Bear]

- states are key. This is why the Founders set us up as they did.

Yes I agree, any turnaround (if one is possible) will  have to start on the state level first. A key component (to my mind, the key component) is taking control of education away from those in control of it now. Return to the teaching standards of the pre-1960s and perhaps the course we are on can be changed.

Unfortunately, it would probably take a generation of time to wrest back control of the education system, and another generation or two before positive results would be seen, and I just don't think the country has that much time left. I give us perhaps another 20 years before the "end" (whatever form it takes) arrives. And perhaps not that long: the acceleration of our devolution as a society in just the last 8 years has been breathtaking.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

The answer is self-evident as history teaches.

Great, so we have a bloody revolution. Then what? We'll still have the non-liberty loving people electing the same people we got last time.

[Norm Lenhart]

The answer is self-evident as history teaches.

And there's a 'university' full of teachers. One of the things that is so frustrating about this whole thing is that people still come up with the "Well what to we do then?" excuse.  Where to begin? The basics.

#If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

#Think before inserting the fork in the wall outlet a second (20th) time.

#If what you do isn't getting the desired result, stop doing it.

#If it hurts, don't do that.

...for starters. I list the basics of self preservation because I cannot believe some people are remotely aware with the actual history of this planet. If they were, they would slap themselves for some of the positions they take repeatedly.

So that leaves a binary option. They WANT the chaos/evil their actions have led to, or they really need to do some research before continuing to vote for their own destruction as their positions are not supportable by history or logical outcome.

[austingirl]

As you well know there is a growing movement for just that here in Texas and if we get either HIllary or Trump for president I will be instantly onboard!

I belong to the Texas Nationalist Movement, used to go to meetings but have no time lately. I have 13 acres, like-minded neighbors, looking to get a solar well pump and a greenhouse. I might have to get real serious soon.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

And there's a 'university' full of teachers. One of the things that is so frustrating about this whole thing is that people still come up with the "Well what to we do then?" excuse.  Where to begin? The basics.

#If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

#Think before inserting the fork in the wall outlet a second (20th) time.

#If what you do isn't getting the desired result, stop doing it.

#If it hurts, don't do that.

...for starters. I list the basics of self preservation because I cannot believe some people are remotely aware with the actual history of this planet. If they were, they would slap themselves for some of the positions they take repeatedly.

So that leaves a binary option. They WANT the chaos/evil their actions have led to, or they really need to do some research before continuing to vote for their own destruction as their positions are not supportable by history or logical outcome.

I don't see any specific there.

[Free Vulcan]

Yes I agree, any turnaround (if one is possible) will  have to start on the state level first. A key component (to my mind, the key component) is taking control of education away from those in control of it now. Return to the teaching standards of the pre-1960s and perhaps the course we are on can be changed.

Unfortunately, it would probably take a generation of time to wrest back control of the education system, and another generation or two before positive results would be seen, and I just don't think the country has that much time left. I give us perhaps another 20 years before the "end" (whatever form it takes) arrives. And perhaps not that long: the acceleration of our devolution as a society in just the last 8 years has been breathtaking.

I agree, and I can't speak for every state, but here in Iowa that wouldn't be a hard job of people would get involved. Most rural schools are pretty good for that reason. There are other things, like reigning in the teacher's unions, which is also possible at the state level.

If I had a list of priorities, it would be:

1. Education reform
2. Voter ID
3. Reeling in the public unions
4. Reigning in welfare
5. Keeping illegal immigration in check.

States can do these and other things. Scott Walker took on many of these. We have a GOP majority in many states and the ability to do these things there too if we wish.

[INVAR]

Great, so we have a bloody revolution. Then what? We'll still have the non-liberty loving people electing the same people we got last time.

No.  Not just a bloody revolution - but a bloodbath.  Vengeance.  Punishment upon those whom will be blamed for the misery.  Death for those who did not support the king, the dictator and the monarch.  This whole election cycle ought to give you a window into the psyche of the people in this nation.  Look what happened at FR.

A microcosm of what will transpire beyond just the texted word when real hurt begins to spread.

To paraphrase Scripture: If they are going to do this when the tree is green, what are they going to do when it is dried and withered?

AND - you might reread the Founders.  A people no longer bound by common religion and morality cannot maintain the kind of Republic and liberty that we have enjoyed in this country.

They will vote for a monarchy or dictator if it promises them bread every single time.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

If I had a list of priorities, it would be:

1. Education reform
2. Voter ID
3. Reeling in the public unions
4. Reigning in welfare
5. Keeping illegal immigration in check.

States can do these and other things. Scott Walker took on many of these. We have a GOP majority in many states and the ability to do these things there too if we wish.

Good stuff, but we still need to win elections to gain these things.

Also problem with #5. How much can states do about II? Obama has handcuffed a lot of state's ability to deal with illegals, plus, on a practical level states have a hard time keeping illegals out on their own.

This is why we need to win federal elections and the Presidency.

Which goes back to my original argument about electibility vs. "principles". The two aren't necessarily in conflict, but they are also not one and the same.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

No.  Not just a bloody revolution - but a bloodbath.  Vengeance. 

So we start rounding up people and executing them?

[INVAR]

And there's a 'university' full of teachers. One of the things that is so frustrating about this whole thing is that people still come up with the "Well what to we do then?" excuse.  Where to begin? The basics.

#If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

#Think before inserting the fork in the wall outlet a second (20th) time.

#If what you do isn't getting the desired result, stop doing it.

#If it hurts, don't do that.

...for starters. I list the basics of self preservation because I cannot believe some people are remotely aware with the actual history of this planet. If they were, they would slap themselves for some of the positions they take repeatedly.

So that leaves a binary option. They WANT the chaos/evil their actions have led to, or they really need to do some research before continuing to vote for their own destruction as their positions are not supportable by history or logical outcome.

Exactly.  Obviously common sense no longer exists, and I assign that to the fact this nation has been given over to strong delusion - to want the lie, and only hear smooth and easy things.

[Free Vulcan]

Good stuff, but we still need to win elections to gain these things.

Also problem with #5. How much can states do about II? Obama has handcuffed a lot of state's ability to deal with illegals, plus, on a practical level states have a hard time keeping illegals out on their own.

This is why we need to win federal elections and the Presidency.

Which goes back to my original argument about electibility vs. "principles". The two aren't necessarily in conflict, but they are also not one and the same.

We already have. The GOP controls many states, close to controlling others. That's why we work at the state level.

#5 - states can require e-verify, they can control welfare, housing, many other things to prevent illegals from coming to their state.

All of those basically work to cut the Dems off at the knees. They enhance electability of Republicans where they get passed.