Author Topic: Liberty or Tyranny  (Read 15624 times)

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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2016, 06:25:27 pm »
Did you know IronJack over at TOS?  You guys would have gotten along REALLY well I think!

Recognize the name but I don't think we ever spoke. Maybe once or twice at best unless my memory is going (likely).

What's his stance on Existential Cage Theory ;)

Online Bigun

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2016, 06:28:48 pm »
Recognize the name but I don't think we ever spoke. Maybe once or twice at best unless my memory is going (likely).

What's his stance on Existential Cage Theory ;)

Dunno! He is  the former editor of a large newspaper and was once a very prolific poster at FR. You remind me a lot of him!

I think he made himself scarce over there quite awhile ago.

Looks like he's still posting over there.

Here is one of his latest:

Quote
To: PJ-Comix
If Ed Dionne got an award every time he was spectacularly wrong, especially about conservative politics, he’d need to add on to his penthouse to store them.


19 posted on 4/27/2016, 10:04:56 AM by IronJack
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 06:32:25 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2016, 06:29:27 pm »
'

Rubbish.  The Founders would vehemently disagree with you.  You espouse exactly what they knew would be one of the key ingredients to the same fate that befell every other "democratic republic" before ours.  You cannot have liberty, you cannot have freedom, you cannot have a Constitution without morality and Principles being the cornerstone of a people who choose their rulers with the same values and principles.

We stand indicted as a whole People without morals or a Constitution, and what you see is just the beginning of those fruits: the tyranny of men.

Precisely!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #128 on: April 27, 2016, 06:30:37 pm »
I look at things like this in a very binary way and get slammed for it a lot. However, A thing is a thing, or it is another thing. It cannot be two things at once and this isn't Schrodinger's politi-Cat.

I have seen people argue endlessly that "Well we can't really say/agree what is conservative and what isn't". Which is what one would expect a pragmatist type would say. Anything to avoid standing for something. I mean God knows Conservative ideals are some nebulous entity that no one ever pinned down before /s

So they are either filled with bovine waste product or they are outright liars as conservatism/ideals/principles are well established and the opposite of the crap they spread around. Because they like the abuse it brings them.

One would think more fun could be had in Vegas with a few hundred bucks. Better quality of abuse and done privately.

 goopo

Online Bigun

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2016, 06:34:42 pm »
I have to go take care of my domestic chores before the boss gets home! BBL!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2016, 06:35:04 pm »
Dunno!

Existential Cage Theory:

1: Get a cage
2: Put the liberal in the cage
3: Weld the door shut
4: Walk away

AKA "Normie's foolproof plan for salvaging America" ;)

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2016, 06:43:42 pm »
It likely won't come to that. DC will just run out of money to do anything, either by default of interest payments sucking all the tax dollars up. Then the states will have to act.

We may even remain a de facto country, but there will be nations within nations at that point. Coalitions or confederacies, call them what you will.

THESE United States originally were a Federation of Sovereign States, each possessing a governor, Secretary of State, treasury, Militia (army), etc. The purpose of the Federal Government was to provide for the common defense, coin money, keep the post roads open, and be an arbiter of disputes between the states. We did not have a National Government until after the War Between the States. 

We may be able to revert to the idea of Sovereign States, but will more likely balkanize into smaller federations based on trade and mutual issues and resources. The monkey wrench in all that comes from the existence of an outside body which has been lent legitimacy in practice and precedent despite out Constitution, and the possibility of foreign intervention into those affairs based on their 'national interests' (like the billion dollar paper products mill the Chinese are putting in Arkansas.

By selling off interests in this country to foreign investors we sell them the presumed right to defend those interests, and the key to the gates to engage in warfare to defend them---as we have done in interventionist wars since WWII.

That is the greatest danger, in that those States would possibly have to fight another national government, and possibly our own at the same time.  They would not be able to count on the military resources of the United States.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2016, 06:51:22 pm »

Its the cult of personality.   People are dead tired of the status quo and are reacting to the only one who actually appears different.   Most don't care what is said about him, or even what he does.  He portrays himself as different then the system they hate and feel abused by.   

You must break the system before you can rebuild it.   Many Trump supporters think the system will be rebuilt into the Republic we were given long ago.   I think it will be rebuilt into a one world dictatorship where the individual has zero rights.  The power will be held by the elites like Trump.

Yes, but the power will be held by Clinton,  a Democratic Congress, and a liberal SCOTUS.   That's what's inevitable if we give Trump the nomination.   We can't rebuild the Republic if we commit political suicide (by allowing Trump to commit political murder).   
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Offline don-o

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2016, 07:02:12 pm »
'

Rubbish.  The Founders would vehemently disagree with you.  You espouse exactly what they knew would be one of the key ingredients to the same fate that befell every other "democratic republic" before ours.  You cannot have liberty, you cannot have freedom, you cannot have a Constitution without morality and Principles being the cornerstone of a people who choose their rulers with the same values and principles.

We stand indicted as a whole People without morals or a Constitution, and what you see is just the beginning of those fruits: the tyranny of men.


Early on in the Rising of The Trump, I tied to make note of the dangers of allowing pragmatism to override the moral sense. Many - most? - equate pragmatism with practicality. So that appeal fell on deaf ears, I suppose. The Natural Law foundation of inalienable rights must be the baseline reference. Any idea that claims to advance liberty without reference to that and a demonstrable agreement with it, is wood, hay and stubble.

Merely parroting "pro-God" and "Christian nation" is the thinnest gruel in contrast to the deep, coherent and ancient ideals that our Founders drew upon.

The problem, let me say THE problem, is that these matters do not make for snappy little 15 second sound bites. Nor do they stimulate the baser of our passions. They are not entertaining. They may nor affirm my autonomy.

The fact that these ideals were instinctual from the Founding to, perhaps the late 19th century, gave us a remarkable run as a Republic. The bloody 20th century has taken us right back to pre-Revolutionary France.




Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #134 on: April 27, 2016, 07:07:23 pm »

The fact that these ideals were instinctual from the Founding to, perhaps the late 19th century, gave us a remarkable run as a Republic. The bloody 20th century has taken us right back to pre-Revolutionary France.

Pretty much. The only real difference I see is they collectively were better educated/far more intelligent/thinking. Which is why so much effort was expended by the left to stupify Americans through generations of educational indoctrination.

Sadly it worked phenomenally well.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2016, 07:56:48 pm »
Yes, but the power will be held by Clinton,  a Democratic Congress, and a liberal SCOTUS.   That's what's inevitable if we give Trump the nomination.   We can't rebuild the Republic if we commit political suicide (by allowing Trump to commit political murder).

I personally don't think there would be any difference policy wise between Hillary and Trump.   Hillary is more corrupt.  Trump is just as liberal but ignorant of the statecraft necessary to lead a country.  Trump is also far more charasmatic which makes him more dangerous.

Maybe Hillary will get indicted so Joe Biden can step in.   
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 07:58:13 pm by driftdiver »
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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2016, 08:10:16 pm »
I personally don't think there would be any difference policy wise between Hillary and Trump.   Hillary is more corrupt.  Trump is just as liberal but ignorant of the statecraft necessary to lead a country.  Trump is also far more charasmatic which makes him more dangerous.

Maybe Hillary will get indicted so Joe Biden can step in.

The irony is that had the Dems gone with Biden over Hillary, Bernie would have a LOT less people on board.  The really pathetic part is that he would be a far superior president than either of them. Which is more an indication of their unsuitability to the job than his competence for it.

Online Bigun

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2016, 09:30:11 pm »
Facebook execs haven't been visiting the WH for private meetings 500 times for nothing.

Fill out those stupid questionnaires to "See what color you are", etc., provides a thumbnail sketch to anybody trained, when used with your own "shares" and "likes".

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean somebody's not actually trying to get you.

The sheer paucity of the liberal argument is the most likely avenue of its own defeat. Liberals can only pursue their mad agenda by becoming more and more strident, more offensive, and more ridiculous. This whole bathroom brouhaha is a perfect example. They're demanding that people deny common sense, and that the 250-pound hairy ape standing in a ladies' room peeing beside an 8-year-old girl is a victim!
People can see through the absurdity, and it makes the whole liberal foundation shake.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #138 on: April 27, 2016, 09:44:10 pm »
The sheer paucity of the liberal argument is the most likely avenue of its own defeat. Liberals can only pursue their mad agenda by becoming more and more strident, more offensive, and more ridiculous. This whole bathroom brouhaha is a perfect example. They're demanding that people deny common sense, and that the 250-pound hairy ape standing in a ladies' room peeing beside an 8-year-old girl is a victim!
People can see through the absurdity, and it makes the whole liberal foundation shake.

It's my opinion that the bathroom debacle is going to be cited as one of the main reasons Donald Trump may take the Oath next January.

The Left ALWAYS overreaches.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Online Bigun

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2016, 09:46:23 pm »
It's my opinion that the bathroom debacle is going to be cited as one of the main reasons Donald Trump may take the Oath next January.

The Left ALWAYS overreaches.

 **nononono*

Donald Trump IS the left! Always has been!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2016, 09:48:28 pm »
It's my opinion that the bathroom debacle is going to be cited as one of the main reasons Donald Trump may take the Oath next January.

The Left ALWAYS overreaches.

But, Trump was FOR the bathroom debacle!

Offline musiclady

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2016, 10:03:07 pm »
But, Trump was FOR the bathroom debacle!

Exactly.  Once again proving how FAR left he really is.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2016, 10:33:03 pm »
They're demanding that people deny common sense, and that the 250-pound hairy ape standing in a ladies' room peeing beside an 8-year-old girl is a victim.

They are doing this on TOS and yet its being celebrated.  They are working for their 30 pieces of silver.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2016, 10:41:40 pm »
If it comes to that, we're lost. I think what will happen is that power will end up concentrated in the Executive to the point where the Legislative has lost all significance. When that happens, some revolutionary will attempt to restore the balance by force, or by assassination. History has shown, however, that any such revolution generally picks up at the level of tyranny maintained by the rulers it has overthrown.

We are already there.  The legislature has already nullified itself to the dictatorship to the Executive it has constructed.  Same with SCOTUS. 

Trump and Sanders are continuations of the punitive 'revolutionary' meme that has taken hold of the populace via a Populist Nationalist/Liberal and an overt Marxist/Socialist.

As divided as we now are, without the core religious and moral commonality we once had - the concept of liberty is impossible.

The tyranny of men is already present and unquenchable.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2016, 10:50:18 pm »
I have seen people argue endlessly that "Well we can't really say/agree what is conservative and what isn't". Which is what one would expect a pragmatist type would say. Anything to avoid standing for something...
So they are either filled with bovine waste product or they are outright liars as conservatism/ideals/principles are well established and the opposite of the crap they spread around. Because they like the abuse it brings them

I think a huge majority of self-identifying "Conservatives" just want to feel the "win".  They see the presidential race like a sporting event, and they got their favorite team to root for so they can feel good about themselves, not caring a whit about what the actual core principles of their chosen "caesar" are.  As long as they get what they think they are entitled to and as long as their ears are tickled, they will vote for whomever the herd looks to make king or queen.  Principles are no longer valued in this country anymore.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 10:58:12 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Mod1

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2016, 10:52:26 pm »
Ohhh... I was deleting a post that had been put on this thread inadvertently and I was numb-headed enough to delete someone else's post.  I am not sure who it belonged to.

I am so sorry.

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2016, 10:55:20 pm »
Ohhh... I was deleting a post that had been put on this thread inadvertently and I was numb-headed enough to delete someone else's post.  I am not sure who it belonged to.

I am so sorry.

I'll try to find it..


found it and restored it....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 10:57:23 pm by mystery-ak »
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Offline Victoria33

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #147 on: April 28, 2016, 03:12:25 am »
I look at things like this in a very binary way and get slammed for it a lot. However, A thing is a thing, or it is another thing. It cannot be two things at once and this isn't Schrodinger's politi-Cat.

I have seen people argue endlessly that "Well we can't really say/agree what is conservative and what isn't". Which is what one would expect a pragmatist type would say. Anything to avoid standing for something. I mean God knows Conservative ideals are some nebulous entity that no one ever pinned down before /s

So they are either filled with bovine waste product or they are outright liars as conservatism/ideals/principles are well established and the opposite of the crap they spread around. Because they like the abuse it brings them.

One would think more fun could be had in Vegas with a few hundred bucks. Better quality of abuse and done privately.

You said, "I look at things like this in a very binary way and get slammed for it a lot. However, A thing is a thing, or it is another thing. It cannot be two things at once ..."

I am studying the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, master philosopher and "doctor" of the church, and he has much to say about "thing", "things", - what a "thing" is and what it is not.  Perhaps you are kin to Aquinas. 

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #148 on: April 28, 2016, 03:45:12 am »
You said, "I look at things like this in a very binary way and get slammed for it a lot. However, A thing is a thing, or it is another thing. It cannot be two things at once ..."

I am studying the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, master philosopher and "doctor" of the church, and he has much to say about "thing", "things", - what a "thing" is and what it is not.  Perhaps you are kin to Aquinas.

It's mostly just being a supporter of logical argument and reason distilled from a lot of sources. I half joked about standing on the shoulders of giants upthread but really, all this stuff has been established over millenia by the greatest thinkers. I find it simultaneously amusing and nauseating that the special little snowflakes think that they can simply mock it all away with one liner answers because their TV hero of the moment does it. Whether it be Trump or some supposedly 'conservative' radio host or a Fox News personality.

Actually a lot of this reminds me of a company I worked at in the 90s. There was a woman that the suits hired in marketing that was a buzzword factory. There was nothing that wasn't an 'issue'. Sometimes I think thats the only word she knew and had learned it watching "Friends".

She screwed up several departments with her idiocy because besides completely turning the place into a verbal Romper Room, she was wholly incompetent at the actual job she was hired to do. And thats what a lot of these people seem to be. They blast words around with abandon, thinking that their volume will overcome the vapidity of the ideas behind them. Because truth be told, there really ARE NO ideas behind them. Just 'feelings' and 'agendas'.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Liberty or Tyranny
« Reply #149 on: April 28, 2016, 05:18:59 am »
It's mostly just being a supporter of logical argument and reason distilled from a lot of sources. I half joked about standing on the shoulders of giants upthread but really, all this stuff has been established over millenia by the greatest thinkers. I find it simultaneously amusing and nauseating that the special little snowflakes think that they can simply mock it all away with one liner answers because their TV hero of the moment does it. Whether it be Trump or some supposedly 'conservative' radio host or a Fox News personality.

Actually a lot of this reminds me of a company I worked at in the 90s. There was a woman that the suits hired in marketing that was a buzzword factory. There was nothing that wasn't an 'issue'. Sometimes I think thats the only word she knew and had learned it watching "Friends".

She screwed up several departments with her idiocy because besides completely turning the place into a verbal Romper Room, she was wholly incompetent at the actual job she was hired to do. And thats what a lot of these people seem to be. They blast words around with abandon, thinking that their volume will overcome the vapidity of the ideas behind them. Because truth be told, there really ARE NO ideas behind them. Just 'feelings' and 'agendas'.

I had an opportunity to watch an old Bowery Boys movie the other day on the television. I used to get a kick out of the way they'd use the wrong words...but now, after watching the news, seeing what passes for education in the grievance industry, and reading some of the gobbledygook that passes for job descriptions, not so much. I ended up changing the channel...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis