Author Topic: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?  (Read 3524 times)

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HAPPY2BME

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Jan 19 (Reuters) - Donald Trump has resuscitated questions regarding Texas Senator Ted Cruz's eligibility to serve as president of the United States. Cruz was born in Canada to a Cuban father and an American mother. A recent Trump tweet succinctly pressed the issue: "Sadly, there is no way that Ted Cruz can continue running in the Republican primary unless he can erase doubt on eligibility. Dems will sue."

The U.S. Constitution requires that the president be a "natural-born citizen" of the United States. Though many contend that being born to an American mother is sufficient, others say only those born on U.S. soil are eligible.

What would a legal challenge to Cruz's eligibility look like? It's far more complicated than you might think because it depends on how each state handles his access to the ballot. New Hampshire's Ballot Law Commission, for example, has already said that Cruz is eligible - at least until a court says otherwise.

Scenario A: Could someone sue to try to keep Cruz off the ballot? Such challenges are unlikely to succeed. A plaintiff must have standing to sue and must show a specific injury rather than a generalized grievance. Voters can't just complain that someone, somewhere is violating a law - they have to identify an actual harm. Most challenges to candidates' eligibility end here. Federal courts, for example, threw out dozens of birther challenges to Barack Obama's eligibility in 2008 and 2012 because voters sued and failed to identify a concrete injury. So, the courts never had to rule that Obama was actually born in Hawaii.

State courts are not bound by the federal standards and have heard challenges from such voters. But these claims often fail because states are not required to look at a candidate's qualifications. New Hampshire is an outlier: Many states don't look at whether a candidate is eligible to be president before placing him or her on the ballot. They accept the paperwork - and happily accept the filing fee - then list the candidate on the ballot. Socialist Workers Party candidate Róger Calero, for example, appeared on several ballots around the country in 2004 and again in 2008 - despite being a Nicaraguan citizen.

Other challenges fail because courts defer to the political process. In a presidential election, one court concluded in a challenge to Obama's eligibility, it is first left to presidential electors to determine eligibility, and then to Congress when it counts the votes. In addition, candidates may lose elections, which would negate any need for a court to interfere.

Some courts, reluctant to intervene, move particularly slowly and let the election process work itself out.

Scenario B: But what if a state kept Cruz off the primary ballot? What if an election official decided that state law permitted only natural-born citizens to appear on the ballot and concluded that Cruz was ineligible, and thus removed him from the ballot? Or what if a state secretary of state decided to reject votes cast for Cruz in a primary election? Cruz would presumably sue - and he would certainly have standing.

A court may choose to drag its feet and hope that the political process would work itself out. Perhaps, Cruz would drop out of the race before a court reached a decision. But denying voters the chance to vote for an eligible candidate, or refusing to count ballots cast for a candidate, would be a serious harm, and a court would likely weigh in.

A court might simply avoid the harder issue of defining "natural-born citizen" and find reasons to allow him on the ballot. It might conclude that no state law authorizes an election official to scrutinize a candidate's eligibility, as occurred in some challenges to Obama's eligibility. Or a court might conclude that a political primary is not binding on the Republican National Convention - since a brokered convention could sort out any prospective nominees' eligibility questions. A court might also say that this is simply a primary race, not the presidential election itself. So any decisions about his eligibility would be premature.

Accordingly, even if a state left Cruz off the ballot, there are many possible avenues by which a court might order him back on the ballot without addressing whether or not he is a natural-born citizen.

Scenario C: But what if a court does weigh in on Cruz's eligibility? Unlikely as it might seem, given the many contingencies outlined above, it remains a distinct possibility with a less-than-certain outcome.

Two major positions stand out in the effort to define "natural-born citizen." Some have argued that the term can only mean a person born within the United States. They cite early British practice before the American Revolution as the principle codified in the text of the Constitution.

Others - more persuasively, in my view - argue that Congress, like the British parliament at the time of the founding fathers, has the power to define who is a natural- born citizen at birth. British and early U.S. practices help demonstrate this understanding.

In 1952, Congress enacted a law granting citizenship to anyone born to an American mother who met a few conditions of domicile in the United States. Cruz is a citizen under that law. And whether he is natural-born turns on whether Congress has the power to declare him natural-born.

How a court resolves this debate is highly uncertain. As courts have generally shied away from resolving disputes about candidate qualifications, judicial involvement here would be truly unprecedented.

Scenario D: Even after all this, there remains one still more potential outcome: a brokered convention. Trump, or some other candidate, might choose to challenge Cruz's eligibility at the Republican National Convention. Challenges to delegates pledged to support Cruz would claim that such delegates could not vote for an unqualified candidate. And the Republican National Committee would have to sift through these contests, potentially leading to a brokered convention in which no single candidate earned a majority of the delegates' votes on the first ballot.

That could lead to far greater uncertainty: Who in the party would be able to broker a deal about who should be the Republican nominee? There would also likely be a fresh round of debates on the term "natural-born citizen." This scenario would be extraordinarily unlikely. But in a high-profile contest between Trump and Cruz, perhaps nothing should surprise us. (Derek Muller)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3407176/Natural-born-mess-What-kick-Ted-Cruz-ballot.html

Offline ABX

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 11:44:43 pm »
Illinois just set a precedent in Cruz's favor.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,193876.0.html

It will be doubtful any court or election's board will go against Cruz now that the precedent has been set in this election.

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 11:48:58 pm »
Illinois just set a precedent in Cruz's favor.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,193876.0.html

It will be doubtful any court or election's board will go against Cruz now that the precedent has been set in this election.

============================

We've been under a communist reincarnation of lucifer himself for the past eight years who is the offspring of (and from where) nobody really knows. 

But what we do know is that at this point, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is that if we are to continue as a nation, this madness must come to an end.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 02:10:35 am »
AbaraXas wrote:
"Illinois just set a precedent in Cruz's favor."

Nope.

This doesn't fall within the prerogative of a "Board of Elections" to make that decision, which is a matter of Constitutional law.

That realm belongs to the Courts.

The only -- let me repeat, the ONLY -- definitive decision as to whether the circumstances of Ted Cruz' birth meet the requirements of the "natural born citizen" clause of the Constitution must come from the United States Supreme Court, or possibly from the Congress (and even an act of the latter may end up before the Court).

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 02:26:19 am »
You are correct, Fish.  The State Board of Elections doesn't set legal precedent of any fashion.

I have been looking through the ruling, with a particular focus on Cruz's attorney's "Memorandum of Law" prepared for the hearing.

Anyone interested in examining the actual proceedings of the hearing, versus the media reports, can find them here.


Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 02:35:07 am »
Cruz doesn't need any affirmative decision by a court in order to run for President.   He has a colorable position that he's eligible.  Any court, I'd think,  would stay its ruling until after the election. 

Let him run.  If he wins, and gets sued, he can hire lawyers. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline ABX

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 02:40:05 am »
You are correct, Fish.  The State Board of Elections doesn't set legal precedent of any fashion.

I have been looking through the ruling, with a particular focus on Cruz's attorney's "Memorandum of Law" prepared for the hearing.

Anyone interested in examining the actual proceedings of the hearing, versus the media reports, can find them here.

Not a legal precedent in the standard sense but a precedent of action. It basically is an easy out for any other challenges to be dismissed versus rocking the boat by using the same argument and pointing back to the findings of the Illinois board.

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 02:40:49 am »
The only -- let me repeat, the ONLY -- definitive decision as to whether the circumstances of Ted Cruz' birth meet the requirements of the "natural born citizen" clause of the Constitution must come from the United States Supreme Court, or possibly from the Congress (and even an act of the latter may end up before the Court).

================================

We'll be hearing from them sometime in 2017.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 02:43:40 am »
We've been under a communist reincarnation of lucifer himself for the past eight years who is the offspring of (and from where) nobody really knows.  But what we do know is that at this point, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is that if we are to continue as a nation, this madness must come to an end.

It matters, Happy, it matters.  If Cruz reaches the Oval Office---anyone born anywhere in the world with one American parent is eligible to follow in his footsteps.  Is that the legacy we want to leave our children living in a world of open borders and transcontinental travel? 

Are we really willing to dispose of an eligibility requirement for one, and only one, public office included in the Constitution by men who sought to identify and eliminate any threat to the sovereignty and security of the United States of America in our time, as well as in their own?   

Are we willing to do this for the benefit of one man?  A man who has not even lived the time needed to cement his commitments or fully understand the workings of the global society and our own private sector?  Will we do this for a single man who lacks the executive experience and professional acumen to build bridges at home and by extension within the global community? 

Seriously, are we willing to jettison this vital clause in our Constitution and tell our Founders that they were right on everything else, but wrong on this because we've become afraid of our circumstance and want desperately to believe and elevate the politician who asks us not to even debate this?

And if your answers are "yes", well you know I've got one more question for you:  What's the next part of the Constitution we will jettison for momentary relief?

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 02:45:07 am »
Not a legal precedent in the standard sense but a precedent of action. It basically is an easy out for any other challenges to be dismissed versus rocking the boat by using the same argument and pointing back to the findings of the Illinois board.

You can hope so, but no guarantees on that!

(Actually, when I am finished with it, I will give a summary here in the thread, maybe tomorrow.  There is actually something that was 'decided' by the board that Mr. Cruz certainly doesn't want to serve as a "precedent" of any sort!)

Offline Bigun

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 02:48:53 am »
We have been all over this previously on this board and anyone who would like can go find those threads.

I'm not about to revisit the issue now.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 02:50:48 am »
It matters, Happy, it matters.  If Cruz reaches the Oval Office---anyone born anywhere in the world with one American parent is eligible to follow in his footsteps.  Is that the legacy we want to leave our children living in a world of open borders and transcontinental travel? 

Are we really willing to dispose of an eligibility requirement for one, and only one, public office included in the Constitution by men who sought to identify and eliminate any threat to the sovereignty and security of the United States of America in our time, as well as in their own?   

Are we willing to do this for the benefit of one man?  A man who has not even lived the time needed to cement his commitments or fully understand the workings of the global society and our own private sector?  Will we do this for a single man who lacks the executive experience and professional acumen to build bridges at home and by extension within the global community? 

Seriously, are we willing to jettison this vital clause in our Constitution and tell our Founders that they were right on everything else, but wrong on this because we've become afraid of our circumstance and want desperately to believe and elevate the politician who asks us not to even debate this?

And if your answers are "yes", well you know I've got one more question for you:  What's the next part of the Constitution we will jettison for momentary relief?

After all those expressions of love you're killing me you know!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 02:53:51 am »
May I put my two cents worth in?

Cruz is being left alone on this issue right now because the establishment is using him to try to take Trump out.  He should understand that if that were to happen - HE would be enemy #1 just like he was during the last Fox debate with Megyn asking the gotcha questions and then backtracking after the debate when the damage was already done.

Of course, Cruz is happy to do this - he is running to win, after all.

But, should he become the nominee - and I'm sure the Democrats are giggling about this - THEN - an all out assault will be launched in the courts of every state in this country - challenging his eligibility.  This will take him down and we will have to bow at the throne of Hillary! the Whore of Babylon.

Anyone disagree with me?

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 02:57:31 am »
We have been all over this previously on this board and anyone who would like can go find those threads.

I'm not about to revisit the issue now.

As you know, I agree with you on that.  A lot of time was spent in that thread!

However, in this thread, I plan to make some commentary specific to the Illinois State Election Board hearing.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2016, 02:58:58 am »
May I put my two cents worth in?

Cruz is being left alone on this issue right now because the establishment is using him to try to take Trump out.  He should understand that if that were to happen - HE would be enemy #1 just like he was during the last Fox debate with Megyn asking the gotcha questions and then backtracking after the debate when the damage was already done.

Of course, Cruz is happy to do this - he is running to win, after all.

But, should he become the nominee - and I'm sure the Democrats are giggling about this - THEN - an all out assault will be launched in the courts of every state in this country - challenging his eligibility.  This will take him down and we will have to bow at the throne of Hillary! the Whore of Babylon.

Anyone disagree with me?

Come on Alice! If they go after Ted on this they will also be going after Rubio and the Donald as well. Ain't gonna happen!

Edit to add that doing so will take down king Obama as well!

« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:02:49 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2016, 03:01:00 am »
As you know, I agree with you on that.  A lot of time was spent in that thread!

However, in this thread, I plan to make some commentary specific to the Illinois State Election Board hearing.

I have no problem with that at all!

And further, I have NO doubt what-so-ever that you know a hell of a lot more about it than the Illinois Board of Elections ever will!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:11:42 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2016, 03:15:40 am »
After all those expressions of love you're killing me you know!

I do.   (Still  adore you  ^-^)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:17:28 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 03:19:22 am »
We have been all over this previously on this board and anyone who would like can go find those threads.

I'm not about to revisit the issue now.

 :beer:

HAPPY2BME

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2016, 03:42:33 am »
It matters, Happy, it matters.  If Cruz reaches the Oval Office---anyone born anywhere in the world with one American parent is eligible to follow in his footsteps.  Is that the legacy we want to leave our children living in a world of open borders and transcontinental travel? 

Are we really willing to dispose of an eligibility requirement for one, and only one, public office included in the Constitution by men who sought to identify and eliminate any threat to the sovereignty and security of the United States of America in our time, as well as in their own?   

Are we willing to do this for the benefit of one man?  A man who has not even lived the time needed to cement his commitments or fully understand the workings of the global society and our own private sector?  Will we do this for a single man who lacks the executive experience and professional acumen to build bridges at home and by extension within the global community? 

Seriously, are we willing to jettison this vital clause in our Constitution and tell our Founders that they were right on everything else, but wrong on this because we've become afraid of our circumstance and want desperately to believe and elevate the politician who asks us not to even debate this?

And if your answers are "yes", well you know I've got one more question for you:  What's the next part of the Constitution we will jettison for momentary relief?

===============================

Good points and questions, and thank you for that.

I fully understand the repercussions of the precedent of allowing a person be elected POTUS who is not authorized by the U.S. Constitution.  I believe in the Constitution, and all that it stands for.

It really pains me when I come to the conclusion that the U.S. Constitution is not enforced by the very ones elected to defend it, as I'm certain it does you as well.

As stated earlier, it must be the USSC that has the final authority as to whether Ted Cruz is eligible to hold the office of POTUS.  Not thee or me.

In a system that is totally politically corrupt in each branch of the government (Admin, Judicial, Legislative), it has come to the point that nobody trusts anybody, or can agree on practically even the very base and simple matters of government.

I think we may be witnessing the end of our nation, as we know it.   

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2016, 03:48:00 am »
===============================

Good points and questions, and thank you for that.

I fully understand the repercussions of the precedent of allowing a person be elected POTUS who is not authorized by the U.S. Constitution.  I believe in the Constitution, and all that it stands for.

It really pains me when I come to the conclusion that the U.S. Constitution is not enforced by the very ones elected to defend it, as I'm certain it does you as well.

As stated earlier, it must be the USSC that has the final authority as to whether Ted Cruz is eligible to hold the office of POTUS.  Not thee or me.

In a system that is totally politically corrupt in each branch of the government (Admin, Judicial, Legislative), it has come to the point that nobody trusts anybody, or can agree on practically even the very base and simple matters of government.

I think we may be witnessing the end of our nation, as we know it.

Funny time to be bringing it up now.  About 7 years ago woulda been better.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2016, 03:46:42 pm »
Funny time to be bringing it up now.  About 7 years ago woulda been better.

7 years ago we were asking for a birth certificate.   Today we have one.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2016, 03:48:56 pm »
7 years ago we were asking for a birth certificate.   Today we have one.

Exactly.  And, we still have squat re: 0bama.

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 06:00:46 pm »
Having read through the bulk of the Illinois Board of Elections Hearing proceedings on the matter of Joyce v. Cruz, 16SOEBGP526, I can share the following summary.

(As an aside, there are approximately 20 odd challenges to Mr. Cruz’s eligibility in various stages of process throughout several states.  Most of which have been brought by other ‘minor’ candidates (i.e., relatively unknown people that have paid the fees and met the requirements to secure a position on a primary ballot).  None of the challenges have been brought by any of the ‘major’ candidates in the race.)


Background

The Objector, Mr. Joyce (Pro Se), filed a “Verified Objector’s Petition” on January 6, 2106, seeking to have the BoE remove Mr. Cruz’s name from the March 15, 2016 Illinois presidential primary ballot, based on the contention that Mr. Cruz is not a “natural born Citizen” and is hence not eligible to hold the Office.

Mr. Cruz, represented by Ms. Langenstein, responded with a Motion to Dismiss, and subsequently a "Memorandum of Law," and Mr. Joyce also filed another document in support of his initial Objection.  (The details of the document filling schedule can be found in the beginning pages of the PDF file I linked above.)


Motion to Dismiss

What is significant about Mr. Cruz’s initial response to the Objector’s petition is two-fold:

1.  The fact that he initially countered the Objection with a Motion to Dismiss, while understandable, is a bit of a disappointment to the people that have been hoping that Mr. Cruz will let this process ‘play out’ and get a decision.  Note, that there are two divisions in this camp: A.  those that believe Mr. Cruz to be eligible, and B. those that believe Mr. Cruz is not eligible; both claim to “just want the matter to put to rest.”

2.  The fact that the Board of Elections rejected Mr. Cruz’s three part Motion to Dismiss on all three points.


(Many of you will recall the mounting frustration that built 7-8 years ago with respect to the numerous challenges to Obama’s eligibility.  With the exception of a small handful, every challenge was successfully dismissed prior to adjudication (with the vast majority of the dismissals being for a lack of Standing on the part of the challenger).  A constant refrain was along the lines of “If he thinks/believes that he is eligible, then why not let it get into a court and secure a favorable judgement?  Why stop this proceeding on a technicality?”  I think that many people are hoping that Mr. Cruz does not attempt to meet any court challenges with similar Motions to Dismiss.)


In summary, Candidate Cruz offered three reasons supporting his Motion to Dismiss:
1.  Dealing with the matters raised in the Objection is beyond the state Board of Elections’ Scope of Inquiry.
2.  The Objector does not fully state the nature of the Objection.
3.  The question of whether a Candidate for POTUS is eligible to hold the Office is beyond the scope of the Election board.

The board rejected all three elements of the Motion to Dismiss.  Both “sides” can not help but observe, that the BoE simply manufactured their ‘denials’ out of whole cloth (without offering any substantive underlying reasoning or citation of case law, or other sources of precedent).  I am sure that this was disappointing to Mr. Cruz and his campaign, if only for the fact that he will have to pay non-trivial attorney fees to represent himself in each of these challenges that proceed to a hearing.


(Again, what follows is my brief summary of what I was able to glean from a rather compressed study of the proceedings of the Hearing Board.  Anyone with a serious interest in the matter is encouraging to wade into the document on their own, to avail themselves of a full understanding of each document and its content.)


The Objection (and Supplemental Filing)

Mr. Joyce’s Objection can be summarized as:

A.  Natural Born citizenship, as denoted in the Constitution as a requirement for the POTUS Office, is a construct of Natural Law.  It is inherited by natural born Citizens solely (and naturally) by the circumstances of birth, and no Positive (i.e., manmade) Law constructs are required, nor operative.

B.  All other citizenship is acquired through the intervention of government, as constituted in the various naturalization acts of Congress throughout history.

C. Multiple citations of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark regarding the statutory differences between naturalized citizenship and natural born citizenship. 

(I am leaving out the citations for two reasons: 1. sake of brevity, and 2. this isn’t intended to be an advocacy piece for either side of the issue.  Most of all the case law cited in this hearing has been covered in the multi-page “Coulter” thread that anyone can reference for a fairly substantive discussions of the issues.)

D.  A citation from Rogers v. Bellei regarding the fact that prior to the 1934 version of the INA, a person with Mr. Cruz’s birth circumstances would have no claim to US citizenship (a form of my Winston Churchill example, described elsewhere).

E.  A somewhat drawn out description of the legal fiction (this is a term of art) that was created in the 1790 INA and altered in the 1795 version.

(My Opinion on Mr. Joyce’s Objection: he did a fairly good job at bringing some of the case law precedents to the fore, even if many sections of his document were a bit tortured in their presentation.  His Objection would have been more relevant for adjudication of the issue in a court of law, not a state Board of Elections hearing.  I doubt that much of his content was consumed or understood by the hearing officer.)


Ms. Langenstein’s (Mr. Cruz’s) Submitted “Memorandum of Law”

This document is noticeably lean on citations of case law (no real surprise).  It is actually built upon many of the discussion topics that have been presented in the recent popular media publications that have been flying around since the topic was raised (beyond the academic discussions that started back in 2008).

Items that are presented in Langenstein’s memorandum include:

A.  The non-binding Senate Resultion 511 that was drafted in support of John McCain’s eligibility.

B.  The HLR article by Kaytal & Clement.

C.  A lengthy argument that natural born Citizenship remains undefined.

D.  A discussion of George Romney’s eligibility issues.

E.  The 1790 INA as a source of a “definition” (in contrast to the counter position of the term remaining undefined).

F.  The Congressional Research Service publication from 2011 on “Natural Born Citizenship.”

G.  An internally conflicting citation from Zivotofsky v. Kerry regarding a CRBA’s (Consular Report of Birth Abroad) association with naturalization.

H.  They also attempt to create numerous equivalencies and “truths” out of thin air (i.e., with no case law citations), and mis-reference multiple parts of the Constitution.


(My opinion on the Memorandum is that it is pretty much what one would expect.  It relies almost exclusively on non-binding and non-precedential  opinions, most of which anyone following this topic has already seen discussed in numerous places.  It is fairly lengthy and undoubtably was not well understood by the hearing board.  It served its purpose, it presented enough discussion surrounding a host of issues to create an air of doubt regarding the content of the Objection.  This will likely be used a template for defense of eligibility in any other hearings, outside the realm of a court room.  IF the issue ever proceeds to court, its content will not be useful as an eligibility defense in its present form.)


As Bigun mentioned above, neither he nor I, wish to re-engage in a re-hash of this topic, especially in this thread.  The "Coulter" thread is a good place to get caught up on what has previously been discussed.  I understand that this summary, while an objective outlining of the main points raised in the hearing materials, paints a less than flattering picture of Mr. Cruz's main source of defense.  All that I can say, is that "it is, what it is."  If there are any points of discussion that I failed to bring into the summary, feel free to present them!

There are a lot more interesting documents in the PDF file for anyone that has a keen interest in this topic, including the material presentations and dispositions of 3 other Objections.

 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 06:29:26 pm by katzenjammer »

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 06:22:49 pm »
Cruz doesn't need any affirmative decision by a court in order to run for President.   He has a colorable position that he's eligible.  Any court, I'd think,  would stay its ruling until after the election. 

Let him run.  If he wins, and gets sued, he can hire lawyers.
So anybody born anywhere with any parents can run, and if they win that would settle it ??

Where did you go to Law School ??
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Natural-born mess: What would it take to kick Ted Cruz off the ballot?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2016, 06:32:05 pm »
Thank you Katz, for explaining this in terms that I can understand.  I appreciate you wading through it so we don't have to.   :patriot:

This is an issue that is going to follow Cruz and be a big distraction from the message he is running on.  Something we sure don't need to hinder us at this time in history.  Cruz is young enough that he could take the time to clear this up before he gratifies his ambitions at this crucial time.  It surprises me that he hasn't prepared a better foundation for his eligibility. 

Cruz is surprising me a lot lately - and not in a good way.

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!