Author Topic: Jail Time vs. Suspension  (Read 2174 times)

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Online libertybele

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Jail Time vs. Suspension
« on: September 06, 2015, 08:16:06 pm »
...and here we have it.  Kim Davis who is a Christian refused to issue marriage licenses because of her faith and was thrown in jail without bail.  A Muslim flight attendant is simply  suspended for refusing to serve alcohol because of her faith.  Now tell me again, how there isn't a war on Christianity?  Tell me again that there isn't a double standard for liberals and the anti-Christians.


Muslim flight attendant says she was suspended for refusing to serve alcohol


 (CNN)A Muslim flight attendant says she was suspended by ExpressJet for refusing to serve alcohol in accordance with her Islamic faith.

In a bid to get her job back, Charee Stanley filed a discrimination complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission on Tuesday for the revocation of a reasonable religious accommodation.

She wants to do her job without serving alcohol in accordance with her Islamic faith -- just as she was doing before her suspension, her lawyer said.

"What this case comes down to is no one should have to choose between their career and religion and it's incumbent upon employers to provide a safe environment where employees can feel they can practice their religion freely," said Lena Masri, an attorney with Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Stanley, 40, started working for ExpressJet nearly three years ago. About two years ago she converted to Islam. This year she learned her faith prohibits her from not only consuming alcohol but serving it, too, Masri said.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/05/travel/muslim-flight-attendant-feat/index.html
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 08:20:08 pm by libertybele »
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Offline Paladin

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2015, 08:28:22 pm »
"Stanley, 40, started working for ExpressJet nearly three years ago. About two years ago she converted to Islam. This year she learned her faith prohibits her from not only consuming alcohol but serving it, too, Masri said."

The most obvious difference between the two women is that Stanley does not work for the government. Beyond that since she works in a job she knew involved serving alcohol, she should have quit or asked to be moved to another job which didn't involve booze.
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Online libertybele

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 08:38:33 pm »
"Stanley, 40, started working for ExpressJet nearly three years ago. About two years ago she converted to Islam. This year she learned her faith prohibits her from not only consuming alcohol but serving it, too, Masri said."

The most obvious difference between the two women is that Stanley does not work for the government. Beyond that since she works in a job she knew involved serving alcohol, she should have quit or asked to be moved to another job which didn't involve booze.

I'm not questioning the difference in jobs classification or what type of company they are employed by,  I am questioning why a Christian is jailed for claiming her first amendment rights while employed and the Muslim is only suspended for claiming her first amendment rights while employed.

Secondly, your last statement misses the point in it's entirety ... as the attorney pointed out " no one should have to choose between their career and religion and it's incumbent upon employers to provide a safe environment where employees can feel they can practice their religion freely..."


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Offline Paladin

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 08:43:00 pm »
"I'm not questioning the difference in jobs classification or what type of company they are employed by,  I am questioning why a Christian is jailed for claiming her first amendment rights while employed and the Muslim is only suspended for claiming her first amendment rights while employed."

Because Stanley wasn't ordered by a judge to perform her duties, refused to do so, and thus was jailed for contempt of court.
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 08:50:48 pm »
"I'm not questioning the difference in jobs classification or what type of company they are employed by,  I am questioning why a Christian is jailed for claiming her first amendment rights while employed and the Muslim is only suspended for claiming her first amendment rights while employed."

Because Stanley wasn't ordered by a judge to perform her duties, refused to do so, and thus was jailed for contempt of court.

A U.S. judge ordering someone to perform a job that is against their religion is in clear violation of the 1st Amendment. How can she be in contempt if her rights have been violated?? Secondly the U.S. Supreme court ruling is unconstitutional in that they can only interpret Constitutional law. 

With that being said, do you think that a U.S. judge has the right to order the Muslim to serve alcohol?? If she does not do so should she be thrown in jail without bail?
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2015, 08:50:55 pm »
Because Stanley wasn't ordered by a judge to perform her duties, refused to do so, and thus was jailed for contempt of court.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2015, 08:52:07 pm »
A U.S. judge ordering someone to perform a job that is against their religion is in clear violation of the 1st Amendment.

The judge only ordered her to perform her job. If it's against her religion she should resign.
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 09:09:23 pm »
Libertybele, this is getting a bit out of hand. Don't misunderstand me. I am not unsympathetic to Davis, it's just that the situation with Stanley is not parallel. One is employed by government and the other by a private business. Their duties and responsibilities both involve serving the public but in entirely different capacities.

Davis chose her course and is now suffering the consequences, something for which I admire her. Stanley, too, chose her course, but is trying to evade the consequences. I believe she should be fired but she can't be punished judicially because there are no grounds for it.

In addition, there may be more to this Stanley case than what first meets the eye. At least there might be according to Pamela Gellar.

Why would a devout Muslim want to be a flight attendant in the first place, when half your job is serving alcohol?
http://pamelageller.com/2015/09/why-would-a-devout-muslim.html/
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 09:21:06 pm »
The judge only ordered her to perform her job. If it's against her religion she should resign.

Good grief ... so you clearly think it's ok for the government to violate the Constitution and mandate what an individual can and cannot do.  I bet you just love Obamacare.
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2015, 09:25:55 pm »
Libertybele, this is getting a bit out of hand. Don't misunderstand me. I am not unsympathetic to Davis, it's just that the situation with Stanley is not parallel. One is employed by government and the other by a private business. Their duties and responsibilities both involve serving the public but in entirely different capacities.

Davis chose her course and is now suffering the consequences, something for which I admire her. Stanley, too, chose her course, but is trying to evade the consequences. I believe she should be fired but she can't be punished judicially because there are no grounds for it.

In addition, there may be more to this Stanley case than what first meets the eye. At least there might be according to Pamela Gellar.

Why would a devout Muslim want to be a flight attendant in the first place, when half your job is serving alcohol?
http://pamelageller.com/2015/09/why-would-a-devout-muslim.html/

Ok.  Obviously you see the cases very differently. I see that the two cases very much parallel each other as both are seeking their right to religious freedom under the First Amendment; the Christian jailed the Muslim not jailed.  As for the jobs that they both held, it appears that they were both employed for a period time before their rights were violated.  Religious freedom under the Constitution is what is at stake here and the Supreme Court ruling for same sex marriage, the judges ruling in the case of the Christian did infringe upon that right.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:27:15 pm by libertybele »
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 09:29:21 pm »
Good grief ... so you clearly think it's ok for the government to violate the Constitution and mandate what an individual can and cannot do.  I bet you just love Obamacare.

If Kim was a Muslim she would still be in jail right now.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:41:29 pm by Dexter »
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 09:35:24 pm »
Question:   Since when does a private company like ExpressJet have the authority to incarcerate their employees for refusing to fulfill their employment duties?


 :whistle:   

It's not only not the same league....it's not the same sport. 
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2015, 09:41:45 pm »
I'm not questioning the difference in jobs classification or what type of company they are employed by,  I am questioning why a Christian is jailed for claiming her first amendment rights while employed and the Muslim is only suspended for claiming her first amendment rights while employed.

Secondly, your last statement misses the point in it's entirety ... as the attorney pointed out " no one should have to choose between their career and religion and it's incumbent upon employers to provide a safe environment where employees can feel they can practice their religion freely..."

Kim Davis can't be 'suspended' or fired as her position is that of an elected official.  The only way that she can be removed from her position is for her to resign or for her to be recalled.  In the meantime, the only practical way to keep her from her office is to detain her.

Suspension did the same thing in the case of the Muslim employee.  Had she had the same protections as Kim Davis, it might have required the same level of involvement.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:45:51 pm by Godzilla »

Offline EdinVA

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2015, 09:43:44 pm »
The piece to the puzzle no one has talked about is that Davis is an ELECTED official accountable to the electorate in the performance of her duties.
I am not sure how the judge even has the authority to order anyone to perform specific duties in a political position.
If that were the case, could we not get court order to demand obama/reid/boenher/mcconell do their jobs or go to jail?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:44:01 pm by EdinVA »

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2015, 09:45:19 pm »
Kim Davis can't be 'suspended' or fired as her position is that of an elected official.  The only way that she can be removed from her position is for her to resign or for her to be recalled.  In the meantime, the only 0ractical way to keep her from her office is to detain her.

Suspension did the same thing in the case of the Muslim employee.  Had she had the same protections as Kim Davis, it might have required the same level of involvement.

The only way the Muslim flight attendant could have been jailed here is if she peed in the scotch.

Then again....the scotch they serve...who the hell would know the difference?
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Offline Carling

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2015, 10:15:44 pm »
If Kim was a Muslim she would still be in jail right now.

If she was a Muslim, nobody would have heard about it because the anti-Christian left doesn't go after Muslims.

As an example, there were videos of Muslim bakeries refusing to make gay marriage wedding cakes.  They weren't targeted, fined, and forced to close by your leftist buddies.  Why would that be?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:18:46 pm by Carling »
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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2015, 10:27:20 pm »
Libertybele, this is getting a bit out of hand. Don't misunderstand me. I am not unsympathetic to Davis, it's just that the situation with Stanley is not parallel. One is employed by government and the other by a private business. Their duties and responsibilities both involve serving the public but in entirely different capacities.

Davis chose her course and is now suffering the consequences, something for which I admire her. Stanley, too, chose her course, but is trying to evade the consequences. I believe she should be fired but she can't be punished judicially because there are no grounds for it.

In addition, there may be more to this Stanley case than what first meets the eye. At least there might be according to Pamela Gellar.

Why would a devout Muslim want to be a flight attendant in the first place, when half your job is serving alcohol?
http://pamelageller.com/2015/09/why-would-a-devout-muslim.html/

You want parallel.  Here's some parallel for you!

On May 18, 1970, Jack Baker and Michael McConnell walked into a
courthouse in Minneapolis, paid $10, and applied for a marriage
license. The county clerk, Gerald Nelson, refused to give it to them.
Obviously, he told them, marriage was for people of the opposite sex; it wast was silly to think otherwise.

Baker, a law student, didn’t agree. He and McConnell, a librarian, had met at a Halloween party in Oklahoma in 1966, shortly after Baker was pushed out of the Air Force for his sexuality. From the beginning, the men were committed to one another. In 1967, Baker proposed that they move in together. McConnell replied that he wanted to get married—really, legally married. The idea struck even Baker as odd at first, but he promised to find a way and decided to go to law school to figure it out.

When the clerk rejected Baker and McConnell’s application, they sued in state court. Nothing in the Minnesota marriage statute, Baker noted, mentioned gender. And even if it did, he argued, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples would constitute unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex, violating both the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. He likened the situation to that of interracial marriage, which the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in 1967, in Loving v. Virginia.

The trial court dismissed Baker’s claim. The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld that dismissal, in an opinion that cited the dictionary definition of marriage and contended, “The institution of marriage as a union of man and woman...is as old as the book of Genesis.” Finally, in 1972, Baker appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case, rejecting it with a single sentence: “The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question.” The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider.

Last week, the high court reversed itself and declared that gays could marry nationwide. “Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his sweeping decision in Obergefell v. Hodges. “They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.”

The plaintiffs’ arguments in Obergefell were strikingly similar to those Baker made back in the 1970s. And the Constitution has not changed since Baker made his challenge (save for the ratification of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment, on congressional salaries). But the high court’s view of the legitimacy and constitutionality of same-sex marriage changed radically: In the span of 43 years, the notion had gone from ridiculous to constitutionally mandated. How did that happen?


I put the question to Mary Bonauto, who argued Obergefell before the Supreme Court in April. A Boston-based staff lawyer for Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders, Bonauto won the Massachusetts case that made the state the first to allow gay couples to wed in 2004. In 1971, she noted, sodomy was a crime in nearly every state, gays were routinely persecuted and barred from public and private employment, and homosexuality was classified as a mental illness. “We were just as right then as we are now,” she said. “But there was a complete lack of understanding of the existence and common humanity of gay people.”

What changed, in other words, wasn’t the Constitution—it was the country. And what changed the country was a movement.

Friday’s decision wasn’t solely or even primarily the work of the lawyers and plaintiffs who brought the case. It was the product of the decades of activism that made the idea of gay marriage seem plausible, desirable, and right. By now, it has become a political cliché to wonder at how quickly public opinion has changed on gay marriage in recent years—support for “marriages between homosexuals,” measured at 60 percent this year, was just 27 percent when Gallup first asked the question in 1996. But that didn’t happen organically.

Much more at link!

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/

Quote
When the clerk rejected Baker and McConnell’s application, they sued in state court. Nothing in the Minnesota marriage statute, Baker noted, mentioned gender. And even if it did, he argued, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples would constitute unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex, violating both the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. He likened the situation to that of interracial marriage, which the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in 1967, in Loving v. Virginia.

The trial court dismissed Baker’s claim. The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld that dismissal, in an opinion that cited the dictionary definition of marriage and contended, “The institution of marriage as a union of man and woman...is as old as the book of Genesis.” Finally, in 1972, Baker appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case, rejecting it with a single sentence: “The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question.”

The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider.The plaintiffs’ arguments in Obergefell were strikingly similar to those Baker made back in the 1970s. And the Constitution has not changed since Baker made his challenge (save for the ratification of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment, on congressional salaries).

How did we get from no substantial federal question to law of the land by judicial fiat?  That's what I want to know!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:29:54 pm by Bigun »
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Online libertybele

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2015, 10:28:14 pm »
The piece to the puzzle no one has talked about is that Davis is an ELECTED official accountable to the electorate in the performance of her duties.
I am not sure how the judge even has the authority to order anyone to perform specific duties in a political position.
If that were the case, could we not get court order to demand obama/reid/boenher/mcconell do their jobs or go to jail?

 :beer: 


"The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider."


 :beer:
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:30:21 pm by libertybele »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2015, 10:44:29 pm »
If she was a Muslim, nobody would have heard about it because the anti-Christian left doesn't go after Muslims.

As an example, there were videos of Muslim bakeries refusing to make gay marriage wedding cakes.  They weren't targeted, fined, and forced to close by your leftist buddies.  Why would that be?

Where are those videos?  I'd like to see one.

In Minneapolis a few years ago, a large group of Muslim cabbies filed a complaint, saying they were being forced to carry alcohol and dogs in their cab, in violation of their religious faith.  They wanted to pick and choose who they would transport.

They were overruled by the authority that licensed them, they took it to court, and lost there too. My guess is that this flight attendant will be told she will have to take another job with the airline or lose her job.
If the airline can accommodate her in some other way, they may try or they may not.  They are under no obligation to do so, since she was aware serving alcohol is part of her job and she DID server alcohol before her conversion to Islam.

The courageous thing to do for both Davis and Stanley would be to resign.  Neither will, of course, as they want to bend their employers to their will.  Davis could have simply stepped aside and let other clerks issue licenses but, instead, she shut down her office.

Both will ultimately lose their cases and should.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Carling

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2015, 10:50:40 pm »
Where are those videos?  I'd like to see one.

In Minneapolis a few years ago, a large group of Muslim cabbies filed a complaint, saying they were being forced to carry alcohol and dogs in their cab, in violation of their religious faith.  They wanted to pick and choose who they would transport.

They were overruled by the authority that licensed them, they took it to court, and lost there too. My guess is that this flight attendant will be told she will have to take another job with the airline or lose her job.
If the airline can accommodate her in some other way, they may try or they may not.  They are under no obligation to do so, since she was aware serving alcohol is part of her job and she DID server alcohol before her conversion to Islam.

The courageous thing to do for both Davis and Stanley would be to resign.  Neither will, of course, as they want to bend their employers to their will.  Davis could have simply stepped aside and let other clerks issue licenses but, instead, she shut down her office.

Both will ultimately lose their cases and should.

Google is your friend.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/5/video-puts-muslim-bakeries-florists-in-gay-rights-/?page=all
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2015, 10:51:24 pm »
:beer: 


"The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider."


 :beer:

Allow a parallel from 180 years ago (parenthetical of course):

"The idea that men cannot own the services of other men and force them to work against their will, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd to even consider."

Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2015, 10:53:37 pm »
Allow a parallel from 180 years ago (parenthetical of course):

"The idea that men cannot own the services of other men and force them to work against their will, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd to even consider."

This is nothing more that PURE judicial activism Sink and you damned well know it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2015, 10:59:12 pm »
Google is your friend.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/5/video-puts-muslim-bakeries-florists-in-gay-rights-/?page=all

So they gay couples did not complain.  No one's rights were violated if no one complained.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2015, 11:01:46 pm »
This is nothing more that PURE judicial activism Sink and you damned well know it!

Maybe it is, but what is your remedy?

We have a Constitutional system and that system has decided that same sex couples must have their marriages recognized by the state.

That's not near as egregious to me as the Roe v. Wade decision, which has legalized abortion for 42 years.  But, until we can overturn it either by the Court or via Constitutional amendment, we're stuck with it.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Jail Time vs. Suspension
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2015, 11:10:25 pm »
Maybe it is, but what is your remedy?

We have a Constitutional system and that system has decided that same sex couples must have their marriages recognized by the state.

That's not near as egregious to me as the Roe v. Wade decision, which has legalized abortion for 42 years.  But, until we can overturn it either by the Court or via Constitutional amendment, we're stuck with it.

My solution is to FOLLOW the Constitution and impeach every single federal judge who refuses to do that!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien