Ukraine Is On The Verge Of A Colossal Military Disaster After Latest Russian Advance

[Fishrrman]

This thread is a PERFECT example of why I don't even bother reading "Ukraine-related" threads here in the forum.

No official reports can be believed. They seem to be distorted to favor either the Russian perspective or the anti-Russian perspective.

Over at TOS the Ukraine-boosters are called "zeepers".
We seem to have our own contingent of them here.

These people would be happy to see Ukraine fight to the last man, and the country entirely destroyed, rather than accept some kind of settlement through which Russia gains territory [that I dare say] to which they have a historical and rightful claim.

That's how I see it.
I DON'T CARE what your opinion is. Take it and shove it.
(signing off)

[MeganC]

I’m referencing documents released via freedom of information acts

Post them.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Post them.

Quit being lazy and find them. They are here.

And don’t be song that hair flip thing at me either. I posted the information. You find it, read it then come back and apologize.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Post them.

You, and only you, are responsible to find the information. You can challenge the accuracy of your own convictions. If you don’t, they are just emotion-based opinions and you are a liberal. .

That’s how you develop your mind, and set your opinion on ground far more solid than your hormones.

[MeganC]

Quit being lazy and find them. They are here.

And don’t be song that hair flip thing at me either. I posted the information. You find it, read it then come back and apologize.

Then I stand with what I said. You cannot back this up so stop parroting it or else get used to being taunted.

Oh, and just for the record I did not call you a bootlicker.

But I don't mind if someone else does.

[DCPatriot]

Going back...way back in time, only a few events evoke such passion on the Conservative forums.

Elian Gonzalez...Terri Schiavo and illegal immigration during Clinton/Bush terms immediately come to mind.

Enough Ukraine... would like to see the Syrian Christians actively protected today.  Horrific what is being done to them.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Then I stand with what I said. You cannot back this up so stop parroting it or else get used to being taunted.

I’m sorry darling. I just looked EVERYWHERE and could not find one single shit to give about your foot stomping and pouting. The Internet is a wonderful thing. Use it.

Along with your mind. 

People who actually pay attention have seen my links and my posts.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Going back...way back in time, only a few events evoke such passion on the Conservative forums.

Elian Gonzalez...Terri Schiavo and illegal immigration during Clinton/Bush terms immediately come to mind.

Enough Ukraine... would like to see the Syrian Christians actively protected today.  Horrific what is being done to them.

Was she one of those “the boy belongs with the father” b$#%@s?

[mystery-ak]

This thread is a PERFECT example of why I don't even bother reading "Ukraine-related" threads here in the forum.

Ain't that the truth.


You can argue all you want but please stop the name calling....

[MeganC]

I’m sorry darling. I just looked EVERYWHERE and could not find one single shit to give about your foot stomping and pouting. The Internet is a wonderful thing. Use it.

Along with your mind. 

People who actually pay attention have seen my links and my posts.

[mountaineer]

This thread is a PERFECT example of why I don't even bother reading "Ukraine-related" threads here in the forum.

No official reports can be believed. They seem to be distorted to favor either the Russian perspective or the anti-Russian perspective.

[Luis Gonzalez]

You can argue all you want but please stop the name calling....

As you well know, I can argue until I’m blue in the face quite respectfully, but when the very first post about my post is met with direct and indirect slurs, I see no reason to be polite.

After all, I was not consulted on what insult I would consider appropriate before it was cast.

[Luis Gonzalez]

This thread is a PERFECT example of why I don't even bother reading "Ukraine-related" threads here in the forum.

No official reports can be believed. They seem to be distorted to favor either the Russian perspective or the anti-Russian perspective.

What they do is interrupt/disrupt any discussion on the subject where any opinion (other than their own) is allowed to exist.

It’s the lost basic and widely used left-wing free speech disruption method.

Sadly… here they are.

[MeganC]

Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.

- Bernard Baruch 1946

[Wingnut]

time to cut Ukraine loose.  Back to Russia where it belongs.  Biden ceded to Putin. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

 

time to cut Ukraine loose.  Back to Russia where it belongs.  Biden ceded to Putin.

Foreign policy, under Democrats, messed up a lot of things ref: Ukraine. They basically offered it up as collateral damage while promoting/assisting (whatever you wish to call it) the NATO expansion. Joe owned up to that in 1997.
Ukraine was corrupt (see Biden Crime Family) all the way up to the invasion, at which point they became the standard for Freedom and  All That Is Pure And Noble (I myself bought into that for a while. It was a natural reaction for most), but billions have changed hands and billions are unaccounted for and not much is changing, other than the Butcher’s Bill

I don’t want to finance the continued killing of people in a foreign war.

It should be settled. Ukraine should rebuild and prepare for the next attack.

It came close as Hell to being settled, but recalling that the word of the American Secretary of State is worthless, Zelenskyy decided to re-litigate the deal while on National TV, and here we are.

That’s my story, and I am sticking to it.

 

[Luis Gonzalez]

 

All I've stated is that there has been an on-going conflict between the two countries for centuries.  That history can't be changed. 

I take offense when the leader of Ukraine comes into our country begs for more money time and time again, then complains it isn't enough or he didn't receive it and when meeting with our current President has a disrespectful attitude and in fact lies three times about signing documents.  Without U.S. aid Ukraine would be sunk right now.  The EU is supposedly stepping up their game but it is my understanding that support is still contingent upon the U.S. and Z  now understands this. So Z has now agreed for the 4th time to come to the table to sign documents.  What else is supposed to transpire, I don't know. 

Trump is trying to find some sort of peace between the two to stop the slaughtering.  It's Trump's call, and obviously I think he realizes that he can't trust either Z nor Putin.

Meanwhile through all of this both the Russian people and the Ukranian people have suffered.

[DominusVobiscum]

These people would be happy to see Ukraine fight to the last man, and the country entirely destroyed, rather than accept some kind of settlement through which Russia gains territory [that I dare say] to which they have a historical and rightful claim.

1. It is up to the Ukrainians to decide how much they want to suffer to preserve their country and freedom.  Remember the freedom loving phrase "die on your feet instead of live on your knees"?  How about "live free or die"? If Ukraine wants to do that, I have no problem with continued support from free countries.  If Ukraine wants to settle, I am fine with that too. Its THEIR call, not Trumps.  Seems to me Ukraine is more freedom loving that the appeasing republicans led by Donald Chamberlin Trump that now runs the Republican party.

2. Russia has no claim to Ukrainian land.  They lost that when they recognized  Ukraines independence in 1991-2?, and additionally in the Budapest memorandum.

3. Russia is an aggressor that is trying to seize land thru invasion.  This was supposed to be verbotin after WWII.  Trump wants to make conquest acceptable again.

4. I actually hope Europe can replace the US in supporting Ukraine  so that Ukraine can tell the US to shove it.

 

[GtHawk]

These people would be happy to see Ukraine fight to the last man, and the country entirely destroyed, rather than accept some kind of settlement through which Russia gains territory [that I dare say] to which they have a historical and rightful claim.

1. It is up to the Ukrainians to decide how much they want to suffer to preserve their country and freedom.  Remember the freedom loving phrase "die on your feet instead of live on your knees"?  How about "live free or die"? If Ukraine wants to do that, I have no problem with continued support from free countries.  If Ukraine wants to settle, I am fine with that too. Its THEIR call, not Trumps.  Seems to me Ukraine is more freedom loving that the appeasing republicans led by Donald Chamberlin Trump that now runs the Republican party.

2. Russia has no claim to Ukrainian land.  They lost that when they recognized  Ukraines independence in 1991-2?, and additionally in the Budapest memorandum.

3. Russia is an aggressor that is trying to seize land thru invasion.  This was supposed to be verbotin after WWII.  Trump wants to make conquest acceptable again.

4. I actually hope Europe can replace the US in supporting Ukraine  so that Ukraine can tell the US to shove it.

Regarding item 4, works for me.

[catfish1957]

Regarding item 4, works for me.

Same here....   The Marshall Plan haunts us like a ghost from a certain Dickens Novel.   Make it stop. 

[jafo2010]

I never thought we should squander our treasury on a war between Russia and Ukraine.  Never made a bit of sense to me, and still does not.  What this war has done is enrich our military/industrial complex, for all the equipment sent, or most of it, was our own military being depleted to supply Ukraine, and I oppose depleting our military for any nation.

IMHO, Putin is the aggressor, is wrong, and needs to be stopped.  I applaud our president making an effort to bring the two leaders to the table to end this war.  I also believe Zelensky is just one more rat, perhaps a different color.  Ukraine was not a democracy, or should I say, no more a democracy than Russia is today.  Their elections are not free and fair. 

And the past history does have significance.  The former USSR dominated Ukraine for a long time, as it did all the nations that broke from the USSR in 1991.  And the history as has been indicated goes back prior to the USSR. 

When the USSR collapsed in 1991, I am certain many questioned the need for NATO in Europe.  I for one, question it today when half the member states fail miserably to fund it as agreed.  The worst offender is Germany, the wealthiest nation in Europe, and they fund about 50% of what they should.  Trump has been right about NATO all along.  Either step up and defend yourselves, or we get out.  When we are funding the lion's share, it is just wrong in my mind.  I believe our contribution should drop to 10% rather than the huge 70%?

The USA has military forces in all three Baltic states.  I do not see Putin attempting to take over the Baltic states with US forces there to help defend them. 

I think the time has come for the USA to abandon our military bases in Germany with perhaps one exception, Ramstein, and move our forces to Poland.

I tell you, if Trump is able to bring an end to this war, it will put Putin on the hot seat, for all his troops that were promised huge bonuses, who did not receive them, they will be in the streets.

In any case, I do not see Putin as leader of Russia beyond this decade.  He is 72.  And by Russian standards, which are very different than ours, he is a very old man.  Average life expectancy in Russia is 59.  And enough Russians know the UGLY TRUTH about this war.  They talk to folks in the west and get news that is directly opposite of what they have been told by Putin.  Plus, the grave yards have been filling with the bodies of many dead Russians.  This is not a hidden war any longer in Russia, particularly with Ukraine striking as far as 1,000 miles into Russia.  This makes Putin look very weak. 

I see light at the end of the tunnel regarding this conflict.  I believe Trump will accomplish his goal of ending this war, perhaps with Zelensky kicking and screaming all the way to the finish line.  Trump needs to ratchet up the heat on Russia as high as he can to motivate Putin to move forward too.  Enough threats, just impose the sanctions already!

[MeganC]

I never thought we should squander our treasury on a war between Russia and Ukraine. 

I never thought we should enable a war by Russia against Ukraine by asking Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in exchange for worthless security assurances from both Russia and the United States.

[berdie]

I never thought we should enable a war by Russia against Ukraine by asking Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in exchange for worthless security assurances from both Russia and the United States.

 

[Luis Gonzalez]

I never thought we should enable a war by Russia against Ukraine by asking Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in exchange for worthless security assurances from both Russia and the United States.

Russia’s nukes, not Ukraine’s.

”Upon Ukraine’s 1991 independence, over 1,700 Soviet nuclear weapons were left on its territory. Ukraine never possessed operational control of the weapons, and all were removed to Russia under a 1994 agreement in exchange for security

https://www.nti.org/countries/ukraine/

Get your facts straight Toots.

[MeganC]

Russia’s nukes, not Ukraine’s.



Get your facts straight Toots.

Soviet assets left on Ukrainian or Belorussian territory belonged to them per the treaty that dissolved the USSR. Which is why Ukraine retained much of the Soviet Black Sea fleet, Soviet aircraft, and Soviet armor. That included the Soviet nuclear weapons which is why Russia had to negotiate for them from a sovereign Ukraine.

If you would check your facts you'd know this.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Soviet assets left on Ukrainian or Belorussian territory belonged to them per the treaty that dissolved the USSR. Which is why Ukraine retained much of the Soviet Black Sea fleet, Soviet aircraft, and Soviet armor. That included the Soviet nuclear weapons which is why Russia had to negotiate for them from a sovereign Ukraine.

If you would check your facts you'd know this.

They should build more. They can’t because the assets left after the dissolution of the USSR were never under control.

They never replaced them because they don’t have the capacity to make them.

Nite Toots. Back to the ignore pile with you.

[DCPatriot]

Soviet assets left on Ukrainian or Belorussian territory belonged to them per the treaty that dissolved the USSR. Which is why Ukraine retained much of the Soviet Black Sea fleet, Soviet aircraft, and Soviet armor. That included the Soviet nuclear weapons which is why Russia had to negotiate for them from a sovereign Ukraine.

If you would check your facts you'd know this.

Facts are that Ukraine has no nuclear capability as the weapons were Soviet Union's.  Possession doesn't translate to having the technology.

Stop twisting the truth @MeganC

I understand that you couldn't pull this crap at TOS with their thousands of posters, so you think you can do it here with our several dozen?  Doesn't work that way.  Please stop!! 

[MeganC]

Facts are that Ukraine has no nuclear capability as the weapons were Soviet Union's.  Possession doesn't translate to having the technology.

Stop twisting the truth @MeganC

I understand that you couldn't pull this crap at TOS with their thousands of posters, so you think you can do it here with our several dozen?  Doesn't work that way.  Please stop!! 

After the fall of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the Soviet military was divided among the newly independent states that emerged from the dissolution. Here’s a breakdown of how this division occurred:

1. Formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS)

In December 1991, several former Soviet republics signed the Belavezha Accords, which led to the establishment of the CIS. The CIS was intended to facilitate cooperation among the former Soviet republics and included a framework for military collaboration.

2. Distribution of Military Assets

The Soviet Armed Forces were officially disbanded, and military assets were divided among the republics. The division was based on the location of military units and the distribution of military hardware.
Russia retained the bulk of the military equipment, including strategic nuclear forces, as it was the largest and most powerful of the successor states.
Other republics, such as Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, also received significant portions of military hardware, particularly ground forces and air defense systems.

3. Nuclear Weapons

At the time of the Soviet Union's dissolution, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan found themselves with nuclear weapons on their territories. Under the Budapest Memorandum (1994), these countries agreed to relinquish their nuclear arsenals in exchange for security assurances from Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom.
By 1996, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan had transferred all their nuclear weapons to Russia.


4. Military Structure and Command

Each of the newly independent states established their own military structures, often recruiting from former Soviet military personnel. The command and control systems were reorganized to adapt to the new national frameworks.
Some republics, like Ukraine and Georgia, faced challenges in establishing effective military forces due to political instability and economic difficulties.

5. Continued Relations

Despite the division, some former Soviet republics maintained military cooperation through the CIS and other agreements, although tensions existed, particularly between Russia and states like Georgia and Ukraine.
Conclusion

The division of the Soviet military was a complex process influenced by political, strategic, and security considerations. While Russia emerged as the dominant military power, the other successor states sought to establish their own military identities and capabilities in the post-Soviet landscape.

[DCPatriot]

3. Nuclear Weapons

At the time of the Soviet Union's dissolution, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan found themselves with nuclear weapons on their territories. Under the Budapest Memorandum (1994), these countries agreed to relinquish their nuclear arsenals in exchange for security assurances from Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom.
By 1996, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan had transferred all their nuclear weapons to Russia.

Don't shout at me, please.

Here you admit that the nuclear weapons were merely stored in various provinces/states. They were manufactured elsewhere in Mother Russia.

They never were Ukraine's.  Ukraine never possessed the tech know-how which you have falsely claimed on the board.

Thanks for playing.

[MeganC]

Don't shout at me, please.

Here you admit that the nuclear weapons were merely stored in various provinces/states. They were manufactured elsewhere in Mother Russia.

They never were Ukraine's.  Ukraine never possessed the tech know-how which you have falsely claimed on the board.

Thanks for playing.

During the Soviet era, Ukraine played a key role in the production and operation of strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, including the SS-18 and SS-24 ICBMs, with facilities like Pivdenmash in Dnipro producing missiles and Kharkiv developing guidance systems.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Missile Production:
Pivdenmash (Yuzhmash): This facility in Dnipro, Ukraine, was a major producer of Soviet missiles, including ICBMs like the SS-24, which Ukraine's Missile Forces used.

SS-18 (Satan): Pivdenmash also manufactured the SS-18, a powerful ICBM, though these were primarily deployed in Russia and Kazakhstan, not Ukraine.

Khartron Production Association: produced guidance systems

Pavlohrad Chemical and Mechanical Plants: were also involved in ICBM manufacture
Guidance Systems:

The guidance systems for these missiles were developed in Kharkiv.

The subject of Ukraine being able to develop 'crude' nuclear weapons in the ~15KT yield range is further discussed here:

https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/zelensky-nuclear-weapons-bomb-0ddjrs5hw

Excerpting the important part:

Ukraine still controls nine operational reactors and has significant nuclear expertise despite having given up the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal in 1996. The report says: “The weight of reactor plutonium available to Ukraine can be estimated at seven tons … A significant nuclear weapons arsenal would require much less material … the amount of material is sufficient for hundreds of warheads with a tactical yield of several kilotons.”

[MeganC]

They were manufactured elsewhere in Mother Russia.

Pardon me, your slip is showing. 

[catfish1957]

Pardon me, your slip is showing. 

Wow, you are young and naive. "Mother Russia" is an anecdotal term in the vernacular that Russians use to describe themselves forever  That last post was embarassing.  Tell you what I like you, so....  Delete it, and I'll delete this one.

[MeganC]

Wow, you are young and naive. "Mother Russia" is an anecdotal term in the vernacular that Russians use to describe themselves forever  That last post was embarassing.  Tell you what I like you, so....  Delete it, and I'll delete this one.

You're telling me you're a Russian? So noted. 

[catfish1957]

You're telling me you're a Russian? So noted. 

lol...suit yourself, and  speaking of suits, I suggest donning  your asbestos variety.

@DCPatriot

[MeganC]

lol...suit yourself, and  speaking of suits, I suggiest donning  your asbestos variety.

@DCPatriot

For future reference if you wish to make nice with me you might not want to open with an insult:

"Wow, you are young and naive."

[catfish1957]

For future reference if you wish to make nice with me you might not want to open with an insult:

"Wow, you are young and naive."

Ohh baloney...I'd rather be young and naive than old and a curmudgeon. 

[Free Vulcan]

The way I'd negotiate the peace is give Russia a binary choice - if you want to keep a couple of provinces fine, but Ukraine gets into NATO. If you don't like that, give up the provinces.

If they agree to having Ukraine in NATO, then after that what we should do is pull out and put it in Europe's lap with a big screw you smile on our face.

[jafo2010]

I think NATO still has purpose with Russia flexing its muscle.  But I believe the USA should reduce its contribution to 10% of the total for military defense, with European nations greatly increasing their contributions.

And those nations that FAIL to provide their appropriate share, well, they are exempt from the protections of Article 5.  Pay to play folks!!!

[libertybele]

Facts are that Ukraine has no nuclear capability as the weapons were Soviet Union's.  Possession doesn't translate to having the technology.

Stop twisting the truth @MeganC

I understand that you couldn't pull this crap at TOS with their thousands of posters, so you think you can do it here with our several dozen?  Doesn't work that way.  Please stop!! 

Well .... you tried.  Good luck with that.  The 'ignore' feature comes in handy.

[Free Vulcan]

I think NATO still has purpose with Russia flexing its muscle.  But I believe the USA should reduce its contribution to 10% of the total for military defense, with European nations greatly increasing their contributions.

And those nations that FAIL to provide their appropriate share, well, they are exempt from the protections of Article 5.  Pay to play folks!!!

It must be like that or there's no reason to stay. I'm tired of them using their money for some cotton candy, kiddie playground social safety net while they bleed us dry.

Something has to give.

[DCPatriot]

Well .... you tried.  Good luck with that.  The 'ignore' feature comes in handy.

LOL!  Never use the "IGNORE" feature. 

99% of the time, like Dionne Warwick, I "...scroll on by"

[libertybele]

LOL!  Never use the "IGNORE" feature. 

99% of the time, like Dionne Warwick, I "...scroll on by"

Gottcha.   

[libertybele]

It must be like that or there's no reason to stay. I'm tired of them using their money for some cotton candy, kiddie playground social safety net while they bleed us dry.

Something has to give.

Trump has talked about getting us out of NATO.  Another entity and expense that we can do without.

[MeganC]

Ohh baloney...I'd rather be young and naive than old and a curmudgeon.

Young curmudgeons like me grow up to be old curmudgeons like you. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

For future reference if you wish to make nice with me you might not want to open with an insult:

"Wow, you are young and naive."

Yeah…

You’re more of the “labeling someone a ‘bootlicker’ right out of the gate” type.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I found using the “Gray Lady” as a source for any manner of discussion worth its weight in canary droppings amusing.

[MeganC]

Yeah…

You’re more of the “labeling someone a ‘bootlicker’ right out of the gate” type.

You know, this bothers you more than it bothers me. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

You know, this bothers you more than it bothers me. 

It’s more of a deeply-seeded aversion to hypocrisy than anything bothering me, if you really wish to know.

[Wingnut]

LOL!  Never use the "IGNORE" feature. 

99% of the time, like Dionne Warwick, I "...scroll on by"

Yup...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswJOWEkLJM&ab_channel=JustinFung

[DCPatriot]

Yup...
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswJOWEkLJM&ab_channel=JustinFung

YIKES!