All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash

[Smokin Joe]

I'll just throw this out there and leave it.

As far as I'm concerned the science is NEVER settled.

WORD!
 

[Smokin Joe]

Here's the Latest Detail to Keep an Eye on Regarding the Mid-Air Crash at Reagan Airport

Matt Vespa
 |  February 02, 2025 6:05 AM

The tragedy has set off new discussions about air traffic control staffing, where conditions in the tower that night were described as “not normal,” with one controller doing the work of two. Yet, this isn’t a new criticism: Reagan National has had multiple close calls with the air congestion. The FAA grounded all low-altitude helicopters until further notice. The flight recorder from the American Airlines flight was recovered and is being analyzed, with the NTSB revealing that there appears to have been an attempt by the airplane to avoid the collision (via NY Post):

    The pilot of the passenger plane that hit a military chopper and crashed in the Potomac River this week may have attempted a last second move to evade the collision, NTSB said at a news conference.

    The CRJ was at 325 feet at the time of impact “plus or minus 25-feet” the NTSB revealed at the press conference, Saturday. 

    “At one point, very close to the impact, there was a slight change in pitch, an increase in pitch,” NTSB board member Todd Inman said of the nose of the plane.

    However, that maneuver was at the “last second,” and was not in time to avoid being hit by the helicopter.

    The altitude correction is based on information retrieved from the on-board flight data recorder recovered by rescue teams from the Potomac River on Friday.

    “Again, this data is preliminary,” Inman stressed, though stated official word will come from the agency in the coming days.

    […]

    NTSB said they are continuing to work out the transcripts of both the plane and helicopter communications, which occurred on different channels.

    The agency clarified that the recordings that are circulating on social media are only half of the communications that were sent out by the DC control tower on Wednesday.

     NTSB also confirmed that this training flight would require night vision goggles for the military personnel and that this could have contributed to the accident — though it was not clear.

The word preliminary was lost with local media, which pressed the NTSB yesterday to give more details. It was as if this new tidbit was a verified fact, something the agency said was false. They’re still investigating.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2025/02/02/ntsb-reveals-new-details-about-the-final-seconds-leading-up-to-deadly-mid-air-crash-over-reagan-airport-n2651522

An increase in pitch could easily put a plane in landing configuration into a stall, which, at that altitude would be unrecoverable (guaranteed crash). It would reek of desperation, or an attempt to 'go around' if the flaps and or landing gear were being retracted and power applied. Examination of the position of the cockpit controls should tell if it was an attempt to go around.

[mountaineer]

NTSB Newsroom
@NTSB_Newsroom
For media covering the airplane crashes in Washington and Philadelphia—all NTSB updates about news conferences or other investigative information will be posted to this X account. We will not be distributing information via email.
12:00 PM · Feb 1, 2025

[Sighlass]

Here's the Latest Detail to Keep an Eye on Regarding the Mid-Air Crash at Reagan Airport

Matt Vespa
 |  February 02, 2025 6:05 AM

The tragedy has set off new discussions about air traffic control staffing, where conditions in the tower that night were described as “not normal,” with one controller doing the work of two. Yet, this isn’t a new criticism: Reagan National has had multiple close calls with the air congestion. The FAA grounded all low-altitude helicopters until further notice. The flight recorder from the American Airlines flight was recovered and is being analyzed, with the NTSB revealing that there appears to have been an attempt by the airplane to avoid the collision (via NY Post):

    The pilot of the passenger plane that hit a military chopper and crashed in the Potomac River this week may have attempted a last second move to evade the collision, NTSB said at a news conference.

    The CRJ was at 325 feet at the time of impact “plus or minus 25-feet” the NTSB revealed at the press conference, Saturday. 

    “At one point, very close to the impact, there was a slight change in pitch, an increase in pitch,” NTSB board member Todd Inman said of the nose of the plane.

    However, that maneuver was at the “last second,” and was not in time to avoid being hit by the helicopter.

    The altitude correction is based on information retrieved from the on-board flight data recorder recovered by rescue teams from the Potomac River on Friday.

    “Again, this data is preliminary,” Inman stressed, though stated official word will come from the agency in the coming days.

    […]

    NTSB said they are continuing to work out the transcripts of both the plane and helicopter communications, which occurred on different channels.

    The agency clarified that the recordings that are circulating on social media are only half of the communications that were sent out by the DC control tower on Wednesday.

     NTSB also confirmed that this training flight would require night vision goggles for the military personnel and that this could have contributed to the accident — though it was not clear.

Interesting... So the pilot of the plane was alert and did what they could to avoid the crash...

Also interesting (but already pointed out)... was the Night Vision aspect... Some here have suggested "how do you not see a big honking plane's lights".... well having played with first gen (crap basically) Night Vision... You don't see "light in flight".... You see real well things lite-up by the light, but the tunnel vision is real... Even the UV light often coupled with N.V. is basically invisible in air. I have never played with the more advanced Night Vision (later generation), and advances I have read are amazing (like how it does not blind you and compensates when hit with bright light, when it used to often ruin old tech)... but it is still tunnel vision. Not sure if the "trainer" was required to use the same N.V., but probable was.

Still does not explain them being higher than allowed in elevation, but probable they thought the threat area/plane was past them, and they got lax and was climbing altitude. Easier to fly (and gives more cushion safety) when not skimming the water at lower altitudes. Planes can fly at tree top levels, but unless required don't due to how hard it is to keep slight adjusting height. (.... and somewhat due to people complaining about sound at lower elevations)...

Edit: I have messed up on my "Bold" in the quote and don't know how to correct it....

[Smokin Joe]

According to FOX, the Blackhawk was shown to be at 200' on radar, the aircraft FDR indicates over 300', and there is a question of why that discrepancy. No word on what the box indicates as altitude for the Blackhawk.

[DB]

Interesting... So the pilot of the plane was alert and did what they could to avoid the crash...

Also interesting (but already pointed out)... was the Night Vision aspect... Some here have suggested "how do you not see a big honking plane's lights".... well having played with first gen (crap basically) Night Vision... You don't see "light in flight".... You see real well things lite-up by the light, but the tunnel vision is real... Even the UV light often coupled with N.V. is basically invisible in air. I have never played with the more advanced Night Vision (later generation), and advances I have read are amazing (like how it does not blind you and compensates when hit with bright light, when it used to often ruin old tech)... but it is still tunnel vision. Not sure if the "trainer" was required to use the same N.V., but probable was.

Still does not explain them being higher than allowed in elevation, but probable they thought the threat area/plane was past them, and they got lax and was climbing altitude. Easier to fly (and gives more cushion safety) when not skimming the water at lower altitudes. Planes can fly at tree top levels, but unless required don't due to how hard it is to keep slight adjusting height. (.... and somewhat due to people complaining about sound at lower elevations)...

From what I understand night vision goggles should not be used in a situation like that. Inside a major city with lights everywhere and other lighted aircraft in the immediate vacinity that make their use very limited and/or dangerous.

[DB]

According to FOX, the Blackhawk was shown to be at 200' on radar, the aircraft FDR indicates over 300', and there is a question of why that discrepancy. No word on what the box indicates as altitude for the Blackhawk.

Radar is not super accurate, even more so at such low elevations. I believe accurate elevations usually come from transponders on the aircraft that report that information. Even then the information is periodic with dead time in between. The helicopter can change elevation and heading very quickly, likely more quickly than a transponder would report it - if they even had a transponder providing that information. I would guess most military aircraft don't want to be tracked, especially anything involving VIP operations.

I'll add that the commercial airplane definitely had a transponder and that's why they know accurately what its elevation was.

[Smokin Joe]

Radar is not super accurate, even more so at such low elevations. I believe accurate elevations usually come from transponders on the aircraft that report that information. Even then the information is periodic with dead time in between. The helicopter can change elevation and heading very quickly, likely more quickly than a transponder would report it - if they even had a transponder providing that information. I would guess most military aircraft don't want to be tracked, especially anything involving VIP operations.

I'll add that the commercial airplane definitely had a transponder and that's why they know accurately what its elevation was.

Even given transponder delay, is there a capability to set an altitude limit alarm (upper, not just lower) for the cockpit on a Blackhawk?

Commercial aircraft have 'terrain' warnings, but a warning for the pilots of the Blackhawk flying in a restricted airspace that they were exceeding their corridor altitude might be handy for situations like this.
That said, were the altimeters set correctly?
(I realize the ATC is generally looking at transponder data from the aircraft, but if the radar is not that accurate at a range of less than 5 miles, perhaps some advancements could be made there, too.)

[DB]

I should add that radar normally has excellent horizontal accuracy but typically poor vertical accuracy. Radar that can accurately determine elevation is much more complex, expensive and probably less reliable. They also don't want to blast nearby ground level with high level radar pulses.

[Hoodat]

I’m all for discussing things and obviously not shutting down debate and ideas, I just found it distasteful DEI was the blame, when bodies where fresh, families are mourning, and soldiers loved ones have just found out their son and/ daughter have just died and NOONE could possible know the facts.

DEI is a problem, trump is going to fix it, it’s both possible to be against DEI, and act with a bit of class when 60+ of your fellow citizens have just died, including 3 service men/women.

@Stevensr123

I completely agree with your sentiment here.  But I am not privy to any of the actions that have caused upset with you.  Many are contemplating the cause of this tragedy, but are doing so through speculation in the absence of facts.  As more facts are revealed, those contemplations and speculations will be amended accordingly.

As for Trump, if you are expecting politesse from him, you will be disappointed every time.  I don't know his exact words in this event.  But I do know that bringing up DEI is not the same as throwing the helicopter pilot under the bus because she happened to attend a PRIDE event.  So unless I see an exact quote from him, I'm willing to let him slide.  For now.

From the start of this, the finger has been pointed at the FAA more than the military pilots involved.  The DEI speculation has been directed at the FAA.  And I suspect Trump's comments were aligned with that.  No one is denigrating the service of Captain Lobach.  I encourage you to take a look at what Trump actually said instead of what the Left is accusing him of saying.

Having said that, I am in complete agreement with you on knee-jerk reactions from the Right.  We all have to be careful with our responses, especially at the height of emotion.  I have been guilty of this myself.  But at no point should any offensively prejudicial viewpoints override truth.

Please keep posting.  Your posts are welcome and needed here.

[Hoodat]

I was under the impression that helicopters had a different ATC system than fixed-wing aircraft.  Is that not correct?

[Timber Rattler]

@Stevensr123
 No one is denigrating the service of Captain Lobach. 

I dunno, I'm seeing it all over the place in other supposedly Conservative boards (not here).  She's a woman, possibly a lesbian, and worked in the Biden White House as her day job, so there MUST be a conspiracy, right?

At the very least, as is being said, she being a female pilot is what caused the crash, or so is being not so subtly claimed.

 

[DB]

I really hope there's enough evidence to draw definitive conclusions from. Then whatever that is, is what it is without any mystery.

[Smokin Joe]

I really hope there's enough evidence to draw definitive conclusions from. Then whatever that is, is what it is without any mystery.

Me, too.

 The objective at this point is to prevent another such incident in the future.

That requires a level headed and calm, factual approach to the data--all of it.

Half baked recriminations, agenda driven or not, will not advance that goal.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I’m all for discussing things and obviously not shutting down debate and ideas, I just found it distasteful DEI was the blame, when bodies where fresh, families are mourning, and soldiers loved ones have just found out their son and/ daughter have just died and NOONE could possible know the facts.

This    is a boatload of curdled soy milk. 

Not only can we comfort and investigate at the same time, we have a responsibility to do so.  IOW, we can mourn our dead AND focus on protecting the living from a repeat of the threat.

[DCPatriot]

This    is a boatload of curdled soy milk. 

Not only can we comfort and investigate at the same time, we have a responsibility to do so.  IOW, we can mourn our dead AND focus on protecting the living from a repeat of the threat.

Some people gotta virtue signal.   

[Right_in_Virginia]

Some people gotta virtue signal.   

Bless their hearts .... 

[Fishrrman]

They're going to have to find new routes for helicopters moving near the Reagan Airport.

When drifting "off" 100ft. one way, or 500 ft. laterally is going to put commercial aircraft in danger, you'd better make for "more room".

I don't care HOW good your helicopter pilots may be. Too little room for error.

[Cyber Liberty]

Know what would be a first class conspiracy?  What if the chopper pilot had converted to Islam and deliberately crashed into the plane?

[Hoodat]

They're going to have to find new routes for helicopters moving near the Reagan Airport.

When drifting "off" 100ft. one way, or 500 ft. laterally is going to put commercial aircraft in danger, you'd better make for "more room".

I don't care HOW good your helicopter pilots may be. Too little room for error.

Exactly.  This falls squarely on the FAA.

[Hoodat]

Know what would be a first class conspiracy?  What if the chopper pilot had converted to Islam .  .  .

Or the DEI equivalent of islam.

[DB]

Know what would be a first class conspiracy?  What if the chopper pilot had converted to Islam and deliberately crashed into the plane?

Regarding the medical flight that crashed like a missile and conspiracies, what if the patient and wife were wealthy connected Mexicans with Cartel issues? Were both other people on the plane medical people or a mix of security? Just throwing it out there. Most likely mechanical failure, but...

[DB]

Know what would be a first class conspiracy?  What if the chopper pilot had converted to Islam and deliberately crashed into the plane?

We can be pretty certain she didn't just convert to Islam...

[Timber Rattler]

Exactly.  This falls squarely on the FAA.

Congress actually.

damn, do something’ — years of warnings came before DC’s air tragedy

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/30/dc-plane-crash-safety-warnings-00201495

The United States’ worst aviation tragedy in more than two decades followed years of alarms about the nation’s hallowed air-safety system — and a series of close calls before luck finally ran out over the Potomac.

(snip)

“We know we have a critical shortage of air traffic controllers, and many of them are forced to work overtime, they’ll often work fatigued — that’s mostly the fault of Congress,” said former Rep. Peter DeFazio, an Oregon Democrat who chaired the House Transportation Committee for four years until 2023.

“I don’t know that air traffic control was a problem in this instance,” DeFazio added. But he noted that the National Transportation Safety Board, the independent federal agency leading the probe into Wednesday’s crash, “has been warning about this persistently.”

NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy had been among those sounding the loudest warnings, telling reporters in late 2023 that the air traffic system needed relief, which could come in the form of increased funding for controllers or improved technology.

“We are sounding the alarm bells, and we need action,” Homendy said at the time. She added: “I don’t want to hear about summits — damn, do something.”

EXCERPT

Also:

Congress authorized more flights at Reagan National despite warnings

https://www.ktsm.com/news/congress-authorized-more-flights-at-reagan-national-despite-warnings/

Congress added more daily flights to the Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport’s schedule last year — and multiple other times over the past quarter century — despite warnings from the airport where 67 people died in a plane crash Wednesday night.

(snip)

DCA (the airport’s three-letter code) operates on a “slot rule,” meaning the number of daily arrivals and departures is limited. Only four other high-density airports manage congestion this way: JFK and LaGuardia in New York, Newark in New Jersey and O’Hare in Chicago.

Reagan National serves as the area’s “short-haul” airport, according to its website, as nonstop service is limited to a perimeter of 1,250 miles. However, nonstop service is offered beyond that limit to West Coast cities such as Los Angeles and Seattle due to recent federal exemptions.

Through legislation passed by Congress, the U.S. Department of Transportation can issue “beyond-perimeter” exemptions, allowing nonstop service to cities outside the 1,250-mile perimeter.

Last year, the Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act authorized 10 additional daily flights to DCA’s schedule, all of which are outside the perimeter. This decision was made “over the strong opposition of the Airports Authority,” DCA’s website says. Congress also added 54 total slots spread across 2012, 2003 and 2000.

EXCERPT

[Cyber Liberty]

Regarding the medical flight that crashed like a missile and conspiracies, what if the patient and wife were wealthy connected Mexicans with Cartel issues? Were both other people on the plane medical people or a mix of security? Just throwing it out there. Most likely mechanical failure, but...

That one is easy to believe.