Author Topic: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash  (Read 39292 times)

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #400 on: February 02, 2025, 06:40:20 pm »
We can be pretty certain she didn't just convert to Islam...

That is likely so....
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #401 on: February 02, 2025, 07:20:26 pm »
Know what would be a first class conspiracy?  What if the chopper pilot had converted to Islam and deliberately crashed into the plane?

At this point I discount no possibility.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #402 on: February 02, 2025, 07:50:49 pm »
I’m all for discussing things and obviously not shutting down debate and ideas, I just found it distasteful DEI was the blame, when bodies where fresh, families are mourning, and soldiers loved ones have just found out their son and/ daughter have just died and NOONE could possible know the facts.

DEI is a problem, trump is going to fix it, it’s both possible to be against DEI, and act with a bit of class when 60+ of your fellow citizens have just died, including 3 service men/women.

I get it but…

DEI itself is the cause and reason why the question comes up. You can’t publicize a mandatory policy to hire and promote on criteria other than talent, performance and ability then expect that the policy, and by extent the person won’t be blamed.

I went online to see what I could find on the Blackhawk pilot once her name was released, and was astounded at the near total lack of an online presence for her. A Hillary level scrubbing.



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Offline DB

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #403 on: February 02, 2025, 08:00:49 pm »
I get it but…

DEI itself is the cause and reason why the question comes up. You can’t publicize a mandatory policy to hire and promote on criteria other than talent, performance and ability then expect that the policy, and by extent the person won’t be blamed.

I went online to see what I could find on the Blackhawk pilot once her name was released, and was astounded at the near total lack of an online presence for her. A Hillary level scrubbing.



I literally have no other presence on the Web than here.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #404 on: February 02, 2025, 09:28:37 pm »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #405 on: February 02, 2025, 09:38:36 pm »
I get it but…

DEI itself is the cause and reason why the question comes up. You can’t publicize a mandatory policy to hire and promote on criteria other than talent, performance and ability then expect that the policy, and by extent the person won’t be blamed.

I went online to see what I could find on the Blackhawk pilot once her name was released, and was astounded at the near total lack of an online presence for her. A Hillary level scrubbing.



I did too and then articles about her started popping up on X which I posted on TBR...but you can tell everything has been scrubbed..just your basic bio info..
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #406 on: February 02, 2025, 10:03:19 pm »
A native of Durham, North Carolina, Capt Rebecca Lobach had  ...

BNO News Live
@BNODesk
·
Feb 1
The second pilot of the Black Hawk helicopter involved in the D.C. mid-air collision has been identified as Rebecca Lobach, 28.

Rebecca also served as a military social aide at the White House, helping the president host events and ceremonies.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/117860830.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #407 on: February 02, 2025, 10:11:41 pm »
Chances are that withholding her name and scrubbing her social media accounts will invite more suspicion, not less (there will always be some). Any time someone is treated differently, it will raise flags.
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Offline DB

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #408 on: February 02, 2025, 10:16:10 pm »
Chances are that withholding her name and scrubbing her social media accounts will invite more suspicion, not less (there will always be some). Any time someone is treated differently, it will raise flags.

Yep. And someone in a high place thought it was better to do that than leave it out in the open. Nothing is really gone on the Web unless you get the big players to clean their way back servers. Did they? We'll see.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #409 on: February 02, 2025, 10:21:35 pm »
Chances are that withholding her name and scrubbing her social media accounts will invite more suspicion, not less (there will always be some). Any time someone is treated differently, it will raise flags.

Yet, that what was done.
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Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #410 on: February 03, 2025, 05:13:44 am »
Chances are that withholding her name and scrubbing her social media accounts will invite more suspicion, not less (there will always be some). Any time someone is treated differently, it will raise flags.

True enough, BUT it was the family that did it and not DoD, and DoD policy is to typically grant the family 72 hours before releasing any names of deceased service members in the aftermath of whatever happened.  And remember who was SECDEF when this happened...is Pete participating in a cover-up now?
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #411 on: February 03, 2025, 05:28:40 am »
Before D.C. Plane Crash, Army Helicopter Was Flying 100 Feet Too High and Twice Warned About Passenger Jet: Officials
Story by Toria Sheffield • 13h

Investigators released new details regarding the U.S. Army helicopter that collided with American Airlines Flight 5342
 
Officials have released new information regarding the U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with American Airlines flight 5342 on Wednesday, Jan. 29, which resulted in the death of 67 people.

In a briefing on Saturday, Feb. 1, officials from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) told reporters that the Black Hawk helicopter crashed into the plane between 300 feet and 350 feet above the ground, meaning it was flying more than 100 feet higher than it was authorized.

However, the authorities said, there was also a more preliminary indication that — for some reason still being examined — the helicopter may have registered to air traffic control as being at only about 200 feet, though more reliable data shows the passenger jet was at a higher altitude when it was hit.

Officials said they expected more information soon, to narrow down the helicopter's movement through the air.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/before-d-c-plane-crash-army-helicopter-was-flying-100-feet-too-high-and-twice-warned-about-passenger-jet-officials/ar-AA1yhWTw?ocid=widgetonlockscreen&cvid=e073df4ab38b490d9f8c2da74f4de3fa&ei=53
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #412 on: February 03, 2025, 09:54:50 am »
True enough, BUT it was the family that did it and not DoD, and DoD policy is to typically grant the family 72 hours before releasing any names of deceased service members in the aftermath of whatever happened.  And remember who was SECDEF when this happened...is Pete participating in a cover-up now?
I did not say anyone was covering anything up, although they could be and we'd be none the wiser. If here is nothing to hide, why hide it?
As for the new SECDEF, it would not be the first time someone had been 'worked around', it has happened at the highest levels.
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C S Lewis

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #413 on: February 03, 2025, 03:30:32 pm »
NTSB: Conflicting Altimeter Data Retrieved After Midair Collision Near Washington

National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials told reporters on Feb. 1 that preliminary altimeter data do not match the events on the night of the deadly accident.

Officials said the control tower recorded the Black Hawk helicopter flying at an altitude of 200 feet at the time of the collision, in line with its maximum allowed altitude for its flight path.

However, data from the passenger jet’s flight recorder show the collision occurred at an altitude of about 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/ntsb-conflicting-altimeter-data-retrieved-after-midair-collision-near-washington

Offline DB

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #414 on: February 03, 2025, 03:37:46 pm »
NTSB: Conflicting Altimeter Data Retrieved After Midair Collision Near Washington

National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials told reporters on Feb. 1 that preliminary altimeter data do not match the events on the night of the deadly accident.

Officials said the control tower recorded the Black Hawk helicopter flying at an altitude of 200 feet at the time of the collision, in line with its maximum allowed altitude for its flight path.

However, data from the passenger jet’s flight recorder show the collision occurred at an altitude of about 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/ntsb-conflicting-altimeter-data-retrieved-after-midair-collision-near-washington

The tower depends on transponder data from the aircraft to have accurate altitude data. Radar alone, especially at such a low altitude is not very accurate. If the helicopter didn't have a transponder or it wasn't on, the tower would not accurately know the altitude of the helicopter. The big question is, what altitude did the flight recorder on the helicopter report. That is likely what the pilots were using along with just looking out the window.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #415 on: February 03, 2025, 03:43:21 pm »
Officials said the control tower recorded the Black Hawk helicopter flying at an altitude of 200 feet at the time of the collision, in line with its maximum allowed altitude for its flight path.

However, data from the passenger jet’s flight recorder show the collision occurred at an altitude of about 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet.

Either way, 125 ft is a near miss.  There is no conceivable way any air traffic controller should have allowed the paths of two aircraft to come within 125 feet of each other.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #416 on: February 03, 2025, 06:34:17 pm »
Quote
Jilly
@JillRTeamXRP
In the tragic mid-air collision near Washington, D.C., on January 29, 2025, the Black Hawk helicopter’s crew consisted of:
•Captain Rebecca M. Lobach, 28: Serving as the pilot undergoing her annual proficiency evaluation.
•Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves, 39: Acting as the instructor pilot overseeing the evaluation.
•Staff Sergeant Ryan O’Hara, 28: Serving as the crew chief.
At the time of the accident, it is not definitively known whether Captain Lobach or Chief Warrant Officer Eaves was at the controls. Investigations are ongoing to determine this detail.
6:26 PM · Feb 3, 2025


Jilly
@JillRTeamXRP
Rebecca Lobach started flying military helicopters in July 2019 and had 450 flight hours in her career and supposedly flew even during the time frame she worked at the White House. The average flight hours for a U.S. military helicopter pilot can vary based on their assignment, operational tempo, and training requirements. However, here are some general estimates:

•Active-duty pilots: Typically fly 15 to 30 hours per month (180–360 hours per year).
•Pilots in high-tempo units (e.g., deployments): Can exceed 40+ hours per month (480+ hours per year).
•National Guard/Reserve pilots: Usually fly 4 to 10 hours per month but may increase during training or deployments.

Since Captain Rebecca Lobach had over 450 flight hours from mid-2019 to early 2025 (about 5.5 years), her average would have been around 6–7 hours per month, though this may have varied based on her role and training phases. Not saying she wasn’t good at what she did but is it possible she wasn’t current in her flights at night or at that specific airport ?
Seems unusual that all her social media posts were deleted prior to publicly revealing her name by the family.
I think the country and the families of all those deceased have a right to know what the truth is so no one has to assume the why behind this happening . No one wants another incident like this to ever take place again .
6:20 PM · Feb 3, 2025
No matter which one was at the controls, I wonder if he or she had a lot of experience flying at night around DCA.

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Offline Drago

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #417 on: February 03, 2025, 11:51:42 pm »
Either way, 125 ft is a near miss.  There is no conceivable way any air traffic controller should have allowed the paths of two aircraft to come within 125 feet of each other.

Apparently it was allowed to happen a lot on the SFR Potomac river helicopter routes...dozens of helicopters fly that route every day at 200 feet or less near the end of the more infrequently used (for arrivals) runway 33. And the Blackhawk was VFR...i.e. not under "positive control" of ATC. Had the Blackhawk been flying an IFR flight plan then ATC would have had responsibility to maintain separation between the aircraft. (Under VFR rules it is 100% "See and Avoid" by the pilots of the VFR aircraft)...could ATC have helped more? For sure, "Yes", but a lot of holes in the Swiss cheese lined up on this one, night w/NVG's...they have to look under the NVG's to see your "steam gauges" (probable "L" model Blackhawk with older "steam gauges" w/o any "glass cockpit" gauges)...when dialing in the local altimeter setting a 1/10 inch of Hg mis-setting results in a 100 foot altimeter reading error. If the analog altimeter in the Blackhawk was mis-set it could show they were at 200' instead of the actual 325'. Short-staffed tower that night with 19 planes inbound?, etc., etc.

My prediction: the SFR's for the Potomac helicopter routes #1 & #4 will be changed so that VFR helicopters must be in contact with the tower and "hold short" of the approach end of runway 33 until approaching IFR aircraft have landed on 33.  An airline pilot mentions this and other info. here:

https://youtu.be/n9mAUks0krI?si=1_CJW6Xkj32LOFdP

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #418 on: February 04, 2025, 10:15:55 am »
Two Reagan National Airport Employees Were Just Arrested. Here's Why.

Madeline Leesman
 |  February 04, 2025 9:00 AM


Two Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (MWAA) employees were arrested for allegedly leaking footage of last week’s horrific mid-air aviation collision at Reagan National Airport to CNN.

As Townhall covered, an unspeakable tragedy occurred at DCA last week. An American Airlines jet coming in for landing collided with an Army Black Hawk helicopter on Wednesday evening. Once they collided, both aircraft spiraled downward into the icy Potomac River.

All 64 airplane passengers and three soldiers in the helicopter perished. Divers have worked tirelessly to recover as many of the deceased as possible. So far, more than 40 bodies have been pulled from the frigid river.

Predictably, video footage of the horrifying accident was leaked to CNN. The outlet boasted that they’d obtained the footage. Viewers can clearly see the helicopter and the plane on a collision course from a vantage point not captured by other webcam videos of the accident. The collision, explosion, and aftermath are clearly shown in the brief footage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTgUrfQsOnA&t=60s&ab_channel=CNN

more
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/madelineleesman/2025/02/04/two-reagan-national-airport-employees-were-just-arrested-heres-why-n2651617
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #419 on: February 04, 2025, 10:18:38 am »
more

 Two airport authority workers arrested for allegedly leaking DC plane crash video to CNN
By David Propper   
Published Feb. 3, 2025, 6:57 p.m. ET

Two employees of the authority that manages Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport were arrested over their alleged involvement in leaking surveillance footage of last week’s deadly midair aircraft collision to CNN.

The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (MWAA) staffers are accused of making an unauthorized copy of records and are facing charges of computer trespass, the agency said Monday.

The legal trouble is tied to the chilling video obtained by CNN last week that offered a horrifying new vantage point in the crash over the Potomac River, ABC News reported.

The Wednesday night collision between a Black Hawk helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet killed all 67 people on both aircraft.

more
https://nypost.com/2025/02/03/us-news/two-airport-authority-workers-arrested-for-allegedly-leaking-dc-plane-crash-video-to-cnn/
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Offline MeganC

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #420 on: February 04, 2025, 03:07:10 pm »
more

 Two airport authority workers arrested for allegedly leaking DC plane crash video to CNN
By David Propper   
Published Feb. 3, 2025, 6:57 p.m. ET

Two employees of the authority that manages Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport were arrested over their alleged involvement in leaking surveillance footage of last week’s deadly midair aircraft collision to CNN.

The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (MWAA) staffers are accused of making an unauthorized copy of records and are facing charges of computer trespass, the agency said Monday.

The legal trouble is tied to the chilling video obtained by CNN last week that offered a horrifying new vantage point in the crash over the Potomac River, ABC News reported.

The Wednesday night collision between a Black Hawk helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet killed all 67 people on both aircraft.

more
https://nypost.com/2025/02/03/us-news/two-airport-authority-workers-arrested-for-allegedly-leaking-dc-plane-crash-video-to-cnn/

"Both videos were shot on cellphones, CNN reported Friday."

If the videos were shot on cell phones then what's with the arrests and charges?
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #421 on: February 04, 2025, 03:22:45 pm »
"Both videos were shot on cellphones, CNN reported Friday."

If the videos were shot on cell phones then what's with the arrests and charges?

How could they both happen to be filming with their phones in real time?

They used their phones to record the crash from their office archive screens...that's how.
  :shrug:
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Offline MeganC

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #422 on: February 04, 2025, 03:26:49 pm »
How could they both happen to be filming with their phones in real time?

They used their phones to record the crash from their office archive screens...that's how.
  :shrug:

It looked like decent video when I saw it. Much better than what the 'official' video showed. None of the artifacts you'd see from recording a monitor either.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #423 on: February 07, 2025, 10:38:56 am »
 Helicopter had important safety system turned off during collision with American Airlines jet, senator says
By Reuters   
Published Feb. 7, 2025, 4:19 a.m. ET


A key safety system was turned off on the US Army helicopter that collided with an American Airlines regional jet last week near Washington’s Reagan Airport, killing 67.

Senate Commerce Committee Chair Ted Cruz (R-Texas) told reporters the Black Hawk helicopter had turned off its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B), which is permitted for military aircraft.

“This was a training mission, so there was no compelling national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off,” Cruz said after a briefing from the National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration.

In the deadliest US air disaster in more than 20 years, the aircraft collided last week, with both craft plunging into the Potomac River.

The helicopter was flying about 100 feet over the maximum allowed for that route, the NTSB said earlier.

more
https://nypost.com/2025/02/07/us-news/black-hawk-helicopter-had-important-safety-system-turned-off-during-collision-with-american-airlines-jet-senator-says/
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #424 on: February 07, 2025, 11:10:49 am »
This was a training mission, so there was no compelling national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off,” Cruz said after a briefing from the National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration.

This was not a training mission. That's why the ADS-B was turned off.

This was a regularly scheduled helicopter flight that ran this peculiar and very specific route several times each week.

My estimation of what happened here was that the helicopter was not deviating from its scheduled flight path and the flight crew of the helicopter bears no responsibility whatsoever for the disaster. 

The airliner was originally supposed to land at a different runway and ATC routed it to a different runway at the last minute.

The helicopter crew thought they were safe crossing the approach to the secondary runway because nothing was supposed to be landing there at that time.

ATC bears the responsibility for deviating the airliner within airspace in which deviations are not supposed to occur. Ever.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #425 on: February 07, 2025, 12:11:39 pm »
This was not a training mission. That's why the ADS-B was turned off.

This was a regularly scheduled helicopter flight that ran this peculiar and very specific route several times each week.

My estimation of what happened here was that the helicopter was not deviating from its scheduled flight path and the flight crew of the helicopter bears no responsibility whatsoever for the disaster. 

The airliner was originally supposed to land at a different runway and ATC routed it to a different runway at the last minute.

The helicopter crew thought they were safe crossing the approach to the secondary runway because nothing was supposed to be landing there at that time.

ATC bears the responsibility for deviating the airliner within airspace in which deviations are not supposed to occur. Ever.

No. First there were no VIPs onboard. It was a periodic renewal of credentials which is "training". The helicopter was a half mile out of the flight corridor assigned to helicopter traffic and it was at least 100' higher than it was authorized to fly in that location, plane or no plane.

Offline MeganC

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #426 on: February 07, 2025, 02:38:50 pm »
No. First there were no VIPs onboard. It was a periodic renewal of credentials which is "training". The helicopter was a half mile out of the flight corridor assigned to helicopter traffic and it was at least 100' higher than it was authorized to fly in that location, plane or no plane.

"PAT" can refer to passengers or cargo. It can also be cover for whatever the heck mission profile was/is being flown on the route designated for PAT25.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25

I believe the flight crew of the helicopter is being smeared after the fact for flying the precise flight path they were supposed to fly.

Had ATC not had the airliner deviate from its course this would not have happened. Period.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #427 on: February 07, 2025, 03:26:53 pm »
"PAT" can refer to passengers or cargo. It can also be cover for whatever the heck mission profile was/is being flown on the route designated for PAT25.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25

I believe the flight crew of the helicopter is being smeared after the fact for flying the precise flight path they were supposed to fly.

Had ATC not had the airliner deviate from its course this would not have happened. Period.

They were not on the flight path they were supposed to be on. They were flying under visual flight rules, and it was their duty to avoid other aircraft going in and out of the airport. Had they been where they were supposed to be including elevation, they would not hit the American Airlines flight as it landed.

In short, if they had followed their assigned flight path ATC wouldn't have needed to be involved with their flight.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #428 on: February 08, 2025, 06:00:23 am »
Why Wasn’t the Crashed Potomac Black Hawk’s “ADS-B” Tracker Turned On?
 
Nothing is confirmed yet, and the NTSB is still working to understand the specifics of the crash. Even the use of the ADS-B is still under investigation.

Investigators have revealed that the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter that collided with American Airlines Flight 5342 over the Potomac River was flying with its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) system turned off. The turned-off ADS-B is possibly another contributing factor to a crash that was the deadliest in U.S. aviation since 2001.
 
What Is an ADS-B?
The ADS-B is, essentially, a system that broadcasts an aircraft’s positions to others, allowing for easy and nuanced tracking of the aircraft. According to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the ADS-B “is an advanced surveillance technology that combines an aircraft’s positioning source, aircraft avionics, and a ground infrastructure to create an accurate surveillance interface between aircraft and ATC.” Pertinently, the ADS-B “is more precise than radar.”

ADS-B consists of two distinct functions. The first is ADS-B Out. The Second is ADS-B In. The Out function occasionally broadcasts information about the aircraft, including identification, position, altitude, and velocity, allowing ATC and other aircraft to see the transmitting aircraft in real-time. The In function, meanwhile, receives and processes the information that other aircraft transmit, giving the receiving pilots improved situational awareness.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/why-wasn-t-the-crashed-potomac-black-hawk-s-ads-b-tracker-turned-on/ar-AA1yEcNO?ocid=widgetonlockscreen&cvid=a958356448d94724a1063e90b6fe2b79&ei=52
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #429 on: February 08, 2025, 06:02:21 am »
Perhaps it was on and in the collision, explosion, debris flying, and crash it got flipped off. :pondering:
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #430 on: February 08, 2025, 07:42:52 am »
They were not on the flight path they were supposed to be on. They were flying under visual flight rules, and it was their duty to avoid other aircraft going in and out of the airport. Had they been where they were supposed to be including elevation, they would not hit the American Airlines flight as it landed.

In short, if they had followed their assigned flight path ATC wouldn't have needed to be involved with their flight.

One more time, ATC ordered the airliner to deviate and then failed to issue corresponding orders to traffic that was now in conflict.


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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #431 on: February 08, 2025, 09:18:03 am »
One more time, ATC ordered the airliner to deviate and then failed to issue corresponding orders to traffic that was now in conflict.

The runways are normal flight paths to the airport. The helicopter flight restrictions apply to both flight paths for the airport. There is nothing unusual about using or altering flights to different runways. The helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be - period. ATC asked the helicopter to go behind the incoming flight and they acknowledged they would. ATC's radar indicated the helicopter was at 200' but isn't very accurate because the helicopter didn't have its transponder on that reports accurate information. So ATC had no way of knowing the helicopter was violating the airport's normal flight air space.

This is nearly entirely on the helicopter's flight crew. The only valid excuse is the altimeter in the helicopter wasn't operating properly beyond their control.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #432 on: February 08, 2025, 02:20:16 pm »
The runways are normal flight paths to the airport. The helicopter flight restrictions apply to both flight paths for the airport. There is nothing unusual about using or altering flights to different runways. The helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be - period. ATC asked the helicopter to go behind the incoming flight and they acknowledged they would. ATC's radar indicated the helicopter was at 200' but isn't very accurate because the helicopter didn't have its transponder on that reports accurate information. So ATC had no way of knowing the helicopter was violating the airport's normal flight air space.

This is nearly entirely on the helicopter's flight crew. The only valid excuse is the altimeter in the helicopter wasn't operating properly beyond their control.

The ATC order to have the airliner use a different runway is not a rumor. The ATC failing to have the helicopter hold for the airliner is a fact.

Wait for the official finding and it will say so.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #433 on: February 08, 2025, 02:24:19 pm »
The ATC order to have the airliner use a different runway is not a rumor. The ATC failing to have the helicopter hold for the airliner is a fact.

Wait for the official finding and it will say so.

I didn't say it was a rumor. They were directed to runway 33. A normal runway used by the airport. That isn't the point.

The helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be. Had it been at or below 200' like it was required to be it wouldn't have matter what runway was in use. There would have been no collision.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #434 on: February 08, 2025, 03:39:55 pm »
I didn't say it was a rumor. They were directed to runway 33. A normal runway used by the airport. That isn't the point.

The helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be. Had it been at or below 200' like it was required to be it wouldn't have matter what runway was in use. There would have been no collision.
Had it been farther east, as the normal flight path calls for, it would have been below the incoming aircraft on final as well. It was out of position, period. The question is one of 'why'.  The time to transit between the approach paths for the two runways would be too short to matter (much), so the diversion to runway 33 for the incoming jet is a factor that really should be moot. 

At or below the 200 ft. operational ceiling for that airspace, and farther east, the Blackhawk would not have conflicted with traffic on either approach.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #435 on: February 08, 2025, 04:09:32 pm »
Had it been farther east, as the normal flight path calls for, it would have been below the incoming aircraft on final as well. It was out of position, period. The question is one of 'why'.  The time to transit between the approach paths for the two runways would be too short to matter (much), so the diversion to runway 33 for the incoming jet is a factor that really should be moot. 

At or below the 200 ft. operational ceiling for that airspace, and farther east, the Blackhawk would not have conflicted with traffic on either approach.

Yep. And the question really is, as you say, why were they not where they were supposed to be.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #437 on: February 09, 2025, 12:55:10 pm »
My Chinook pilot friend (Col., USA, retired) said when he was stationed near D.C. and flew routes in and around DCA, he maintained altitude  around 150' even where he was permitted to be at 200', just to keep it safe and out of the way of airplanes.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #438 on: February 09, 2025, 06:38:57 pm »
Yep. And the question really is, as you say, why were they not where they were supposed to be.

You're assuming the helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be at that precise time. Had the airliner not deviated there would have been no conflict in that location at that time.

A question that is being avoided because most people are caught up in blamestorming is to ask why regularly occuring Army flight PAT25 takes place at all.

Why is it necessary to do this?
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #439 on: February 09, 2025, 06:43:56 pm »

Why is it necessary to do this?

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #440 on: February 09, 2025, 06:56:34 pm »
You're assuming the helicopter wasn't where it was supposed to be at that precise time. Had the airliner not deviated there would have been no conflict in that location at that time.

A question that is being avoided because most people are caught up in blamestorming is to ask why regularly occuring Army flight PAT25 takes place at all.

Why is it necessary to do this?

I'm not assuming anything. There is a documented corridor and altitude limit the helicopter was supposed to fly in when near that airport for this very reason. When in that corridor no fixed wing aircraft going in or out of that airport would ever cross the helicopter's path. That's the point. The commercial flight was where it was supposed to be and has the absolute right of way. The helicopter was not and does not. In addition, ATC had no way of accurately knowing the helicopter's altitude because the helicopter had the transponder that reports that accurate information turned off. And this is the result. Could have ATC done a better job of tracking all this, very likely yes but that doesn't excuse the helicopter pilot from flying where they were supposed to.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2025, 06:57:46 pm by DB »

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #442 on: February 10, 2025, 01:09:19 pm »
The commercial flight was where it was supposed to be

No, it wasn't.

It was diverted to runway 33 and the ATC was then responsible for resolving conflicts.

The ATC told the helicopter to 'pass behind' the incoming airliner but what was missing from this order was the order to "Hold and then pass behind".

ATC created a conflict at that exact place and time and then did not resolve the conflict.

And I know you're not registering me here when I hammer on the exact place and time because you've never had to be in either front seat of an aircraft coming into an approach where you have an assigned time to land.

Reagan Airport is tightly controlled. I've never flown this ATCZ but I have flown right seat San Jose (Reid Hillview) north along the peninsula in a DHC-6 and we were assigned 4,000 feet and that allowed us +/- fifty feet left-right-up-down. Had we deviated we would have been ordered due west straight out to sea. This is very special airspace because of potential conflicts with airliners. But it's also a fabulous view and well worth doing.

Washington DC is even more tightly controlled. And if you're flying say LA to DC and you're assigned to land at 3:25pm than that means you will be there at precisely 3:25 or else you'll go around until there's a time slot for you to fit into or else you divert to another airport altogether. You have no idea the thought that goes into this when you're en route and you divert for weather or whatever and you have to adjust your speed, altitude, and heading to make that landing slot right on time. And then you have to make sure you have enough fuel to manage the adjustments to your flight plan because most commercial airliners cut it really close on fuel loads to save weight.

And if your precise flight path says you'll be somewhere at 3:25 then everyone else is supposed to rely on this and they expect you NOT to be anywhere else at that time.

And ATC has to do even more juggling when they mess with that carefully timed and carefully scheduled choreography of landings, departures, and conflicts.

A movie for you that depicts what ATC does. I had to watch this in class when I was getting my license.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120797/

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #443 on: February 10, 2025, 01:35:53 pm »
Bottom line. If the Helicopter had been below the altitude limit, it never would have collided with the plane. It would not matter if they were coming in on a parallel runway. Lateral displacement is not the problem here, except for the helicopter being too far west (out over the middle of the Potomac), but vertical positioning is the factor that led to the collision.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #444 on: February 10, 2025, 01:49:49 pm »
Bottom line. If the Helicopter had been below the altitude limit...

You're assuming the helicopter wasn't at the altitude it was supposed to be at for that particular assigned portion of its flight path.

Have you looked at the regularly scheduled PAT25 flight path? Note when I say "PAT25" I am referring to the assigned flight path and not the individual helicopter.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25

These flights happen 2-3 times per week. They take off from Fort Belvoir's airfield, fly this course of three different loops, and then they land. Kinda weird isn't it?

Here's the flight profile from January 18, 2025:

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25/history/20250118/2245Z/KDAA/KDAA/tracklog

The lowest it flew during this normal flight was 250 feet. Not <200.

At 38°50'33.4"N 77°01'25.0"W this normal flight is at 275 feet where it crosses the approach to Runway 33. It descends to 250 feet where it crosses Runway 19.


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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #445 on: February 10, 2025, 02:17:19 pm »
You're assuming the helicopter wasn't at the altitude it was supposed to be at for that particular assigned portion of its flight path.

Have you looked at the regularly scheduled PAT25 flight path? Note when I say "PAT25" I am referring to the assigned flight path and not the individual helicopter.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25

These flights happen 2-3 times per week. They take off from Fort Belvoir's airfield, fly this course of three different loops, and then they land. Kinda weird isn't it?

Here's the flight profile from January 18, 2025:

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/PAT25/history/20250118/2245Z/KDAA/KDAA/tracklog

The lowest it flew during this normal flight was 250 feet. Not <200.

At 38°50'33.4"N 77°01'25.0"W this normal flight is at 275 feet where it crosses the approach to Runway 33. It descends to 250 feet where it crosses Runway 19.

The airplane as at 325' +/-25'. The helicopter hit it. So we know with certainty what elevation the helicopter was.

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #446 on: February 10, 2025, 02:49:37 pm »
The airplane as at 325' +/-25'. The helicopter hit it. So we know with certainty what elevation the helicopter was.
And that was well above where the helicopter was supposed to be.

A caution about deviating from specifications, that applies most anywhere:

If the deviation does not cause immediate catastrophe (IOW, if you 'get away' with it), it will become part of an accepted practice, because it caused no harm. Future deviations will not be restrained by the limits of former deviations from spec, but will be added on to that new 'normal', because that 'new normal' did not produce catastrophic results. In practice, actions will eventually be well out of spec until there is a catastrophic result. That applies in ANY industry, from farming to the oil patch and beyond.

It's why safety hands and others of their ilk are often thought to be 'anal' for being such sticklers for meeting specifications first time, every time, but they understand that any culture that plays fast and loose, even a little bit, with the program will eventually have a disaster.
 
Little deviations can add up (sometimes they cancel each other out, other times they build on each other and all the holes line up in the Swiss cheese), and there will be a catastrophe.

Any other time, a few seconds either way, and there would have been no collision (just a close call or nothing), regardless of the helicopter being above its assigned altitude limits, because it would have passed through airspace not occupied by a plane on short final. IMHO, the ATC was not clear and specific in notifying both aircraft of the potential threat as well, but had the Helicopter been in its assigned flight corridor, there would have been no collision.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2025, 02:53:09 pm by Smokin Joe »
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C S Lewis

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #447 on: February 10, 2025, 03:54:38 pm »
"IMHO, the ATC was not clear and specific in notifying both aircraft of the potential threat as well, but had the Helicopter been in its assigned flight corridor, there would have been no collision."

Agreed on point one. As to the helicopter? What is with this bizarre flight path that was being flown two or three times a week? I suspect this is a surveillance flight. I also suspect that the helicopter was exactly where it was supposed to be. The flight crew was so busy doing whatever it is they were supposed to be doing that they did not fully grasp the purpose of the ATC orders to the airliner.

They did not understand the problem.
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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #448 on: February 10, 2025, 04:01:20 pm »
"IMHO, the ATC was not clear and specific in notifying both aircraft of the potential threat as well, but had the Helicopter been in its assigned flight corridor, there would have been no collision."

Agreed on point one. As to the helicopter? What is with this bizarre flight path that was being flown two or three times a week? I suspect this is a surveillance flight. I also suspect that the helicopter was exactly where it was supposed to be. The flight crew was so busy doing whatever it is they were supposed to be doing that they did not fully grasp the purpose of the ATC orders to the airliner.

They did not understand the problem.
You'd need flight data from previous flights to establish whether the helicopter was following a 'routine' flight path, but even then, recall my previous post about deviating from specifications. This might be a textbook situation.
That syndrome of small deviations from best practices adding up to an eventual trainwreck is something that has happened more than once in my industry, although people have gotten much better about it in the last 40 years.
Fewer drilling rigs have burned down and fewer hands have died as a result. Any potentially dangerous job has its 'swiss cheese' aspects, and only scrupulous compliance with well written specifications avoids eventual disaster.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

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C S Lewis

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Re: All flights halted at Reagan National Airport due to plane crash
« Reply #449 on: February 14, 2025, 03:45:31 pm »
Black Hawk pilots may have missed important air traffic control directive before DC plane crash
By Deirdre Bardolf   
Published Feb. 14, 2025, 3:34 p.m. ET
Quote
Black Hawk pilots may not have heard a critical directive from air traffic control to fly behind the American Airlines plane in the seconds before it collided with the jet, the National Transportation Safety Board said Friday.

Seventeen seconds before the deadly Jan. 29 crash, which killed all 67 people aboard both flights, the Black Hawk was directed to pass behind the passenger jet, NTSB Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy said at a news conference.

“They may have not received the ‘pass behind the’ because they were communicating with air traffic control,” Homendy explained.  ...

At one point before the collision, the helicopter’s pilot announced that it was at 300 feet, but the instructor pilot said the helicopter was at 400 feet, Homendy said.
https://nypost.com/2025/02/14/us-news/black-hawk-pilots-may-have-missed-important-air-traffic-control-directive-before-dc-plane-crash/
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