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Offline Elderberry

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Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« on: October 18, 2024, 07:38:10 am »
The Post & Email 10/17/2024

As Sibley related in his original complaint, Harris was born October 20, 1964 in Oakland, CA to parents who were in the U.S. on student visas, her mother having come from India and her father from Jamaica. They were therefore not U.S. citizens at the time of Kamala’s birth.

On page 4 of the complaint, Sibley wrote (paragraph numbers omitted):

    The phrase “natural born Citizen” is an 18th Century legal term-of-art with a definite meaning well known to the Framers of the Constitution. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the phrase “natural born Citizen” was defined as: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” (The Law of Nations, Emerich de Vattel, 1758, Chapter 19, § 212). Notably, in 1788 there were two requirements to be a “natural born Citizen”: born (i) in the United States and (ii) of two parents, both of whom must have been United States citizens at the time of the birth.

    Accordingly, upon the law and facts, Kamala Iyer Harris is not a “natural born Citizen” and thus is ineligible to hold the office of President of the United States.

“Iyer” was Harris’s original middle name, shortly thereafter changed to “Devi.”

According to all available evidence, Shyamala Gopalan Harris never became a U.S. citizen; Kamala’s father, Donald Jasper Harris, naturalized in 1981, approximately 17 years after her birth.

 I understood when I filed the Petition that the subject matter jurisdiction of the Supreme Court to entertain my Petition was a close call. Hence, I included that as the first issue in the Petition for the Justices to decide.

As of Wednesday, Sibley told us, “the supreme court has not even filed my Rule 22 Application let alone answer my telephone messages inquiring about the delay in filing. So yes, it seems the Supreme Court is ignoring me as the only way to avoid the problem my lawsuit is causing.”

According to plaintiff, Ms. Harris is ineligible to serve as President because she is not a natural-born citizen of the United States. Supreme Court, Schuyler County (Baker, J.), dismissed the complaint because plaintiff failed to comply with the procedural requirements set forth in the Election Law.

    This Court should affirm. As Supreme Court held, the exclusive remedy for removing a candidate from a ballot is a special proceeding commenced pursuant to the Election Law. Plaintiff did not commence such a proceeding. Nor did he file an objection with the State Board of Elections, as required before commencing a special proceeding. Thus, plaintiff lacks standing to challenge Ms. Harris’s placement on the ballot under the Election Law. Plaintiff also lacks standing to assert a federal constitutional claim under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 because he has not alleged any concrete and particularized injury arising from Ms. Harris’s candidacy. Supreme Court therefore correctly dismissed the complaint.

Friday’s hearing will be held during the 9:30 a.m. session, with Sibley’s case being the eighth in a list of 15, and livestreamed here.

More: https://www.thepostemail.com/2024/10/17/harris-eligibility-lawsuit-hearing-friday/

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2024, 10:45:50 am »
Mr. Sibley is 100% correct but I seriously doubt that will make any difference at this point in time. God bless him for trying.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2024, 11:21:23 am »
I thought the whole point of the 14th Amendment was to protect the citizenship rights of freed slaves and to prevent them from being disenfranchised by the States.

1.) She was born in Oakland, California.
2.) She was subject to the jurisdiction of Oakland, California, or which municipality and state issued and maintains her birth certificate.

The fact that her parents were on visas does not negate that Harris meets the qualifications of Article 1 or the 14th Amendment.

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/14th-amendment#:~:text=No%20State%20shall%20make%20or,equal%20protection%20of%20the%20laws.

AMENDMENT XIV

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2024, 11:22:48 am »
Unneeded distraction this close to the election. 
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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2024, 11:31:56 am »
SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2024, 11:48:33 am »
I don't see the word "parents" in the text of Article 1 of the 14th Amendment.

SCOTUS is not averse to reversing precedent.

As a textualist, I'd have to say the previous precedents are wrong because they do not adhere to the actual text.  Embellished interpretation is not law.
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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2024, 12:02:05 pm »
If mere citizenship is sufficient qualification for presidential candidates perhaps someone will explain to me why a perfectly clear distinction was made in the very text of the Constitution.

 
Quote
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;... "
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2024, 12:07:07 pm »
Well, they let Rubio run and neither of his parents were U.S. citizens at the time of his birth.  That doesn't make it right, nor IIRC was his eligibility challenged, but would it not set a precedent?

At any rate, there is no way that she is going to be found ineligible. She's the DEM VP and presidential candidate and she's considered a woman of color. No way.



 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 12:10:13 pm by libertybele »

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2024, 12:08:55 pm »
Well, they let Rubio run and neither of his parents were U.S. citizens at the time of his birth.  That doesn't make it right, nor IIRC was his eligibility challenged, but would it not set a precedent?

No! It sets no precedent.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2024, 12:27:14 pm »
The overarching rationale of the Founders is to limit the chances anyone seeking that office is splitting allegiances rather than prioritizing the USA.

At this moment in time, this is paramount with the tug by the globalists' arms.
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2024, 12:29:10 pm »
"at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" - those people are long dead.  The 14th Amedment supersedes original text.

The US Constitution is an antithetical treastise to the absolute European monarchies of the time.  At the time of the American Revolutionary War, Britiain was ruled by German princes.  It was not uncommon for foreign-born royalty to assume office via heredity, familial relationship, or marriage in Europe.  That wording was to prevent those with foreign loyalties from taking office.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 12:39:46 pm by DefiantMassRINO »
"Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it’s entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - Alan Simpson, Frontline Video Interview

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2024, 12:37:38 pm »
Navitivists freaked when a black man got elected.  They are losing their stuff at the prospect of a woman of mixed Indian-Jamaican ancestry becoming President.  Wait until someone of Mexican descent becomes President.

America not an exclusive country club for rich WASP's and Knickerbockers.

Are nativists more worried about Indian-Jamaican Kamala becoming President, or her Jewish husband becoming the First Gentleman?
"Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it’s entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - Alan Simpson, Frontline Video Interview

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2024, 01:19:31 pm »
Navitivists freaked when a black man got elected.  They are losing their stuff at the prospect of a woman of mixed Indian-Jamaican ancestry becoming President.  Wait until someone of Mexican descent becomes President.

America not an exclusive country club for rich WASP's and Knickerbockers.

Are nativists more worried about Indian-Jamaican Kamala becoming President, or her Jewish husband becoming the First Gentleman?

No! We are worried about someone with divided loyalties who does not have the best interests of this country at heart. Someone like Barrack Hussein Obama for instance!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2024, 02:56:24 pm »
Because the Donald has yet to release his taxes, we don't know if he's the beneficiary of foreign emoluments.

We know Donald doesn't have divided loyalties because he is only loyal to one thing - himself.  Not the US Constitution.  Not the People.

Where would Kamala's foreign loyalties lie?  Jamaica - she'll smoke blunts, eat jerk chicken, and listen to Bob Marley music?  India - she'll cook a meal with curry in it?

Birtherism won't work.  Nativism won't work.  If Trump deserves to be President, he'll beat Kamala in the Electoral College and in the popular vote.
"Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it’s entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - Alan Simpson, Frontline Video Interview

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2024, 03:37:35 pm »
No! We are worried about someone with divided loyalties who does not have the best interests of this country at heart. Someone like Barrack Hussein Obama for instance!
I get it, you get it, but there are people who would rather have our country run by people raised elsewhere whose parents taught them zip about loyalty to this country.
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Offline berdie

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2024, 04:21:25 pm »
No! We are worried about someone with divided loyalties who does not have the best interests of this country at heart. Someone like Barrack Hussein Obama for instance!



The best example I can think of. His "loyalty" is no worse than Biden's, who loves foreign money to land in his pocket.

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2024, 04:34:30 pm »
I get it, you get it, but there are people who would rather have our country run by people raised elsewhere whose parents taught them zip about loyalty to this country.

We either have a Constitution or we don't. Doesn't get any more simple than that.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2024, 04:55:34 pm »
Because the Donald has yet to release his taxes, we don't know if he's the beneficiary of foreign emoluments.

We know Donald doesn't have divided loyalties because he is only loyal to one thing - himself.  Not the US Constitution.  Not the People.

Where would Kamala's foreign loyalties lie?  Jamaica - she'll smoke blunts, eat jerk chicken, and listen to Bob Marley music?  India - she'll cook a meal with curry in it?

Birtherism won't work.  Nativism won't work.  If Trump deserves to be President, he'll beat Kamala in the Electoral College and in the popular vote.

The only way we will get a legitimate election is if we get back to  paper ballots and voting on Election Day and that day only.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2024, 04:56:14 pm »
We either have a Constitution or we don't. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

Oh we have a Constitution, but how many of our elected officials will honestly adhere to it?

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2024, 06:52:14 pm »
Birtherism won't work.  Nativism won't work.  If Trump deserves to be President, he'll beat Kamala in the Electoral College and in the popular vote.

The popular vote doesn't mean squat, and you know that. 
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2024, 06:56:18 pm »
Gets thrown out.

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2024, 07:02:32 pm »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2024, 07:03:57 pm »
Why?

She was born on US soil to parents who weren’t foreign diplomats.  She is a citizen by birth.  Please stop smoking the dope. 

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2024, 07:12:38 pm »
She was born on US soil to parents who weren’t foreign diplomats.  She is a citizen by birth.  Please stop smoking the dope.

So answer the question I posed up thread. Clearly there is a difference between a mere Citizen and a Natural born Citizen. Otherwise there would be no need to distinguish between them as the founders plainly did. Perhaps you should heed your own advice.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2024, 07:17:36 pm »
Gets thrown out.

Probably.  I would be rather surprised if it's not.  Probably Standing, but who knows?
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2024, 07:17:55 pm »
So answer the question I posed up thread. Clearly there is a difference between a mere Citizen and a Natural born Citizen. Otherwise there would be no need to distinguish between them as the founders plainly did. Perhaps you should heed your own advice.

A “citizen” is just that, anyone who has the status of citizen, and that includes people born elsewhere who were naturalized.  A “natural born citizen” is someone who was born on US soil to parents who were not, at the time foreign diplomats accredited to the U.S.   

Very easy.  Folks should stop overthinking it to force it to mean what they want it to mean for ulterior political motives.


Arnold Schwarzenegger is a citizen but not a natural born citizen.  Kamala Harris is both a citizen and a natural born citizen.  He cannot be president under the Constitution; she can. 


Just because she’s stupid as a box of rocks does not make her ineligible on the basis of citizenship.  Yall have to do the hard work of persuading fellow voters why she’s incompetent.

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2024, 07:20:00 pm »
Probably.  I would be rather surprised if it's not.  Probably Standing, but who knows?

Same dodge they always use to avoid having to deal with something. As in Texas vs Pennsylvania.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2024, 07:25:06 pm »
A “citizen” is just that, anyone who has the status of citizen, and that includes people born elsewhere who were naturalized.  A “natural born citizen” is someone who was born on US soil to parents who were not, at the time foreign diplomats accredited to the U.S.

That is not the understanding of that term when the founder wrote it into the constitution and their understanding as been affirmed at least three times by SCOTUS itself.


"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2024, 10:05:06 am »
John F'n Kerry - who served in Vietnam you know - has a daughter who is married to the son of an Iranian Mullah.

Anybody OK with a child of theirs running for President of the United States 35 years from now?  I'm sure as hell not!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2024, 10:19:50 am »
One can lead a horse to water ...

:shrug:

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2024, 10:27:57 am »
One can lead a horse to water ...

:shrug:

 :yowsa:  :thud:

You OK with the grandson of an Iranian Mullah potentially running for president down the road?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 10:45:07 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2024, 11:10:24 am »
:shrug:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2024, 11:15:09 am »
:shrug:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I have no idea! But I do know that I definitely do not want the grandson of an Iranian Mullah leading this country some day. How about you?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2024, 11:22:17 am »
I have no idea! But I do know that I definitely do not want the grandson of an Iranian Mullah leading this country some day. How about you?

I don't give a flying f**k about a person's past history - I care about the person him or her self - so I don't give a shit who a person's grandparents were.

Making that distinction is both irrational and blasphemous on several levels.  Firstly, it's blasphemous because it judges an individual on the basis of blood taint, which utterly ignores that individual's immortal soul in favor of guilt by association.  Secondly, it's irrational because, amongst other things, it assumes that if only the parents had naturalized first, before giving birth on U.S. soil to the grandchild, all of that blood taint would be magically washed away.

I prefer to judge each individual on his or her own merits and accomplishments, not on who his or her ancestors were.  But then, I guess that's just me and my minority viewpoint.

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2024, 11:28:11 am »
I don't give a flying f**k about a person's past history - I care about the person him or her self - so I don't give a shit who a person's grandparents were.

Making that distinction is both irrational and blasphemous on several levels.  Firstly, it's blasphemous because it judges an individual on the basis of blood taint, which utterly ignores that individual's immortal soul in favor of guilt by association.  Secondly, it's irrational because, amongst other things, it assumes that if only the parents had naturalized first, before giving birth on U.S. soil to the grandchild, all of that blood taint would be magically washed away.

I prefer to judge each individual on his or her own merits and accomplishments, not on who his or her ancestors were.  But then, I guess that's just me and my minority viewpoint.

I don't give a flying F about what you don't give a flying f**K about! I do care greatly about enforcement of our Constitution! Every jot and tittle of it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2024, 11:32:34 am »
I don't give a flying f**k about a person's past history - I care about the person him or her self - so I don't give a shit who a person's grandparents were.

Making that distinction is both irrational and blasphemous on several levels.  Firstly, it's blasphemous because it judges an individual on the basis of blood taint, which utterly ignores that individual's immortal soul in favor of guilt by association.  Secondly, it's irrational because, amongst other things, it assumes that if only the parents had naturalized first, before giving birth on U.S. soil to the grandchild, all of that blood taint would be magically washed away.

I prefer to judge each individual on his or her own merits and accomplishments, not on who his or her ancestors were.  But then, I guess that's just me and my minority viewpoint.
A noble thought but disconnected in reality and history.  This is the most important office held in the country, one our Founders explicitly dictated who is eligible in the Constitution.

I would have preferred Maggie Thatcher as President following Reagan, but everyone knows her first allegiance would not have been to the US but to the UK.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2024, 11:39:45 am »
I don't give a flying F about what you don't give a flying f**K about! I do care greatly about enforcement of oour Constitution! Every jot and tittle of it!

No, actually, you don't care about enforcing the Constitution, you care about finding some mostly irrelevant hook to "justify" the end-results you want to reach for other reasons.  Vattel wasn't elected, didn't write the Constitution, or any part of it, and wasn't expressly incorporated into any part of the Constitution by express or necessary implication.

Vattel is not determinative of what the terms of the Constitution mean, including the requirements for being president.  Vattel can be used as guidance to try and work out a principled distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the phrase "natural born citizen" and the simplest, and most straightforward, back in the day when there weren't even any simple immigration controls, was that the Founders were looking for some proxy, some indicia that an individual was more likely not a foreign mole, someone with foreign loyalties who was attempting to become president to subvert the U.S.  The indicia they arrived at was that if someone had been born in the U.S., and had grown up as always being an American, that such a person would have the requisite lack of foreign entangling loyalties.  Thus, a "natural born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution most comfortably fits with the distinction between an individual who was born here and an individual who was born elsewhere and subsequently immigrated to the U.S.  That this is also consistent with the express language of the 14th Amendment further buttresses the interpretation of the phrase "natural born citizen".

On that basis, the most reasonable reading of the requirement that the president be a "natural born citizen" is that the person have been an American since birth - that he or she have been born in the U.S. - and not merely naturalized into U.S. citizenship when he or she was already an adult (minor children cannot become naturalized citizens before they turn 18).

That is a sufficient distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the compound phrase "natural born citizen", it accomplishes the purposes the Founders appear to have had when they drafted the requirement, and is therefore the most likely interpretation of that phrase in the context of who can be citizen.

Trying to impose Vattel as the end-all-be-all of the meaning of the Constitution is more of an abuse of the Constitution than finding a workable, reasonable interpretation of the language is.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2024, 11:41:58 am »
A noble thought but disconnected in reality and history.  This is the most important office held in the country, one our Founders explicitly dictated who is eligible in the Constitution.

I would have preferred Maggie Thatcher as President following Reagan, but everyone knows her first allegiance would not have been to the US but to the UK.

No, actually, it's not.  It's wholly consistent with the entire idea of America and what America was and is about.  We measure an individual on each individual's own merits, not on the merits, or demerits, of their ancestors.  It's rather sad that you think otherwise.

Maybe we should revive bills of attainder?  Or allow for corruption of blood?

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2024, 11:45:19 am »
No, actually, you don't care about enforcing the Constitution, you care about finding some mostly irrelevant hook to "justify" the end-results you want to reach for other reasons.  Vattel wasn't elected, didn't write the Constitution, or any part of it, and wasn't expressly incorporated into any part of the Constitution by express or necessary implication.

Vattel is not determinative of what the terms of the Constitution mean, including the requirements for being president.  Vattel can be used as guidance to try and work out a principled distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the phrase "natural born citizen" and the simplest, and most straightforward, back in the day when there weren't even any simple immigration controls, was that the Founders were looking for some proxy, some indicia that an individual was more likely not a foreign mole, someone with foreign loyalties who was attempting to become president to subvert the U.S.  The indicia they arrived at was that if someone had been born in the U.S., and had grown up as always being an American, that such a person would have the requisite lack of foreign entangling loyalties.  Thus, a "natural born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution most comfortably fits with the distinction between an individual who was born here and an individual who was born elsewhere and subsequently immigrated to the U.S.  That this is also consistent with the express language of the 14th Amendment further buttresses the interpretation of the phrase "natural born citizen".

On that basis, the most reasonable reading of the requirement that the president be a "natural born citizen" is that the person have been an American since birth - that he or she have been born in the U.S. - and not merely naturalized into U.S. citizenship when he or she was already an adult (minor children cannot become naturalized citizens before they turn 18).

That is a sufficient distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the compound phrase "natural born citizen", it accomplishes the purposes the Founders appear to have had when they drafted the requirement, and is therefore the most likely interpretation of that phrase in the context of who can be citizen.

Trying to impose Vattel as the end-all-be-all of the meaning of the Constitution is more of an abuse of the Constitution than finding a workable, reasonable interpretation of the language is.

SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."


I guess those people didn't know what they were talking about when they said those things.  **nononono*
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2024, 11:50:18 am »
SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."


I guess those people didn't know what they were talking about when they said those things.  **nononono*

Yup.  The courts have made frequent mistakes - make them all the time - so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they made mistakes there as well.  See Dobbs.

Vattel is not, and never was, the source of any provision in the Constitution, and attempting to force the Constitution into his concepts of the world is just as unconstitutional and illegal as any other Living Constitution nonsense from the worst liberal.

Glad to see you're in favor of the Living Constitution doctrine as well.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 12:00:05 pm by Kamaji »

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2024, 11:52:08 am »
A “citizen” is just that, anyone who has the status of citizen, and that includes people born elsewhere who were naturalized.  A “natural born citizen” is someone who was born on US soil to parents who were not, at the time foreign diplomats accredited to the U.S.   

Very easy.  Folks should stop overthinking it to force it to mean what they want it to mean for ulterior political motives.


Arnold Schwarzenegger is a citizen but not a natural born citizen.  Kamala Harris is both a citizen and a natural born citizen.  He cannot be president under the Constitution; she can. 


Just because she’s stupid as a box of rocks does not make her ineligible on the basis of citizenship.  Yall have to do the hard work of persuading fellow voters why she’s incompetent.

Neither of Blossom's parents were citizens or naturalized at the time of her birth.

So by your interpretation every Juan and Juanita or Yasmin and Muhammad who enters ILLEGALLY into the United States and births a baby on U.S. soil, grants that child citizenship.  I doubt that was the intent of our Founding Fathers.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2024, 11:54:29 am »
Neither of Blossom's parents were citizens or naturalized at the time of her birth.

So by your interpretation every Juan and Juanita or Yasmin and Muhammad who enters ILLEGALLY into the United States and births a baby on U.S. soil, grants that child citizenship.  I doubt that was the intent of our Founding Fathers.

Since there was no concept of illegal immigration in 1789, yes, that was exactly what they intended.  Geez, can you throw 'em any slower?

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2024, 12:00:27 pm »
Since there was no concept of illegal immigration in 1789, yes, that was exactly what they intended.  Geez, can you throw 'em any slower?

Gee ... here's a thought .....legislative history makes no mention of illegal immigrants being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.


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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2024, 12:04:28 pm »
Quote
That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, where-ever it is capable of being exerted, is to be dreaded more than the plague. The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom.

St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 316--25, 328--29



Those words were never disputed by any member of the founding generation as far as I can tell but, according to you, he didn't know what he was talking about either.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 12:11:02 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2024, 12:10:39 pm »
Gee ... here's a thought .....legislative history makes no mention of illegal immigrants being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.



:facepalm2:

Here's a thought - there was no such thing as illegal immigration back in the day.

Can you pitch them any slower, and still get it across the plate?

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2024, 12:11:33 pm »
St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 316--25, 328--29

Those words were never disputed by any member of the founding generation as far as I can tell but, according to you, he didn't know what he was talking about either.




Yup, so all it takes is a person who was born in the U.S. and therefore became a U.S. citizen at birth.  That is a natural born citizen.


Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2024, 12:13:01 pm »
Navitivists freaked when a black man got elected.  They are losing their stuff at the prospect of a woman of mixed Indian-Jamaican ancestry becoming President.  Wait until someone of Mexican descent becomes President.

America not an exclusive country club for rich WASP's and Knickerbockers.

Are nativists more worried about Indian-Jamaican Kamala becoming President, or her Jewish husband becoming the First Gentleman?

Dude, has  someone taken over your screen name? Your posts are all over the map.
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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2024, 12:15:08 pm »
Dude, has  someone taken over your screen name? Your posts are all over the map.

That is nothing new, says an Admin....
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2024, 12:17:14 pm »
:facepalm2:

Here's a thought - there was no such thing as illegal immigration back in the day.

Can you pitch them any slower, and still get it across the plate?

Duh ... obviously .... the keyword is "jurisdiction"  and that is a point of contention.

Smugness and arrogance....you gotta love it right?   :laugh:  That's ok ... you are the one with the law degree IIRC.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 12:19:15 pm by libertybele »

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2024, 12:18:08 pm »
Duh ... obviously .... the keyword is "jurisdiction"  and that is a point of contention.

Smugness and arrogance....you gotta love it right?   :laugh:



Dude - so to speak - do you even know what the term means?  Because from your posts, it's pretty obvious that you don't.