Ukraine Payday: G7 to Agree $50-Billion Loan at Italy Summit

[libertybele]

Cool. Then tell me, how does Ukrainian, Georgian, or Moldovan 'corruption' justify the Russian invasions and occupations of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova?

What time frame are your referring to??  The recent conflict or are you going back decades??  Corruption is on both sides.  Justification??  I guess it would depend on how far back in history you want to go and determine the land boundaries.

As for territories and boundaries (Mondolvia as an example) being created that just doesn't involve Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

[libertybele]

Not you. RiV.

Ok ... but IMHO RIV on this issue isn't just making things up as she goes along.  She is pretty darn knowledgeable.

[DB]

Impervious to facts and make stuff up @DB??? Really?

As a rule I generally always back up what I say (fact wise, not opinion wise) with several links. 

Somewhere in the midst of all the posts about Ukraine I've provided some history.

The current conflict was not escalated by Putin until Biden stated that he felt that Putin was going to strike -- keep in mind that Joe was giving Z money long before the escalation.

So, how many more BILLIONS of U.S. dollars and NATO dollars is it going to take for Ukraine to win against Russia?  There has been conflict between Russia and Ukraine for decades.

From 1922 until 1991, Ukraine was the informal name of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union (annexed by Germany as Reichskommissariat Ukraine during 1941–1944).


Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century. In the aftermath of World War I and the Russian Revolution of 1917, most of the Ukrainian region became a republic of the Soviet Union, though parts of western Ukraine were divided between Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia.

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Ukraine

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Crimean-War

Incorrect. Putin was massing troops on the Ukraine's border when Biden was warning Russia was about to strike. Biden was weak and provided an opportunity for Putin to take Ukraine territory, particularly where the oil resources are.

[libertybele]

Incorrect. Putin was massing troops on the Ukraine's border when Biden was warning Russia was about to strike. Biden was weak and provided an opportunity for Putin to take Ukraine territory, particularly where the oil resources are.

Biden was giving Z $$ almost immediate after he took office -- the there's the whole issue of Burisma - which his son was involved with prior to Z.  That was back when Trump was questioning where the money was going and voila, impeachment proceedings began.

It's been several years, but I did post several links to the research Glen Beck did in relationship to the ties of Hunter and Burisma and also the involvement of Obama. 

[DB]

Ok ... but IMHO RIV on this issue isn't just making things up as she goes along.  She is pretty darn knowledgeable.

No she isn't. Her points have been countered over and over to the point that there's no point in doing it anymore.

She says exactly the same thing about Israel and Netanyahu. If only Israel would cede their territory, they'd have peace...

[DB]

Biden was giving Z $$ almost immediate after he took office -- the there's the whole issue of Burisma - which his son was involved with prior to Z.  That was back when Trump was questioning where the money was going and voila, impeachment proceedings began.

As has been stated over and over, Burisma and the Biden's corruption was all under the Putin puppet that "Z" replaced, running on cleaning up that corruption. What exactly do you think Zelenskyy was supposed to do with Russia threatening his country while Biden was President regarding Trump??? Zelenskyy desperately needed US and western support to keep his country from being overrun. That was a bit more important than aiding Trump to dig for evidence of Biden's corruption. That's just hard cold reality.

[libertybele]

No she isn't. Her points have been countered over and over to the point that there's no point in doing it anymore.

She says exactly the same thing about Israel and Netanyahu. If only Israel would cede their territory, they'd have peace...

As for Israel and Netanyahu, I do not agree with @Right_in_Virginia

As for points being countered regarding Russo-Ukraine -- keep in mind that the majority of information, unless you keep digging has a liberal spin.  Again, it boils down to really what side of the fence you are willing to believe.

It's sort of like Trump being accused of Russian collusion - when 'facts' were built upon lies by the DEMS. 

Russia has always been painted as the bad guy and everyone else as the good ole Charlies.  I'm not saying the Putin is an angel and innocent, but Ukraine in the current conflict isn't innocent neither are the Bidens. 

[DB]

As for Israel and Netanyahu, I do not agree with @Right_in_Virginia

As for points being countered regarding Russo-Ukraine -- keep in mind that the majority of information, unless you keep digging has a liberal spin.  Again, it boils down to really what side of the fence you are willing to believe.

It's sort of like Trump being accused of Russian collusion - when 'facts' were built upon lies by the DEMS. 

Russia has always been painted as the bad guy and everyone else as the good ole Charlies.  I'm not saying the Putin is an angel and innocent, but Ukraine in the current conflict isn't innocent neither are the Bidens.

There's a singular reason why NATO was created. To counter Russian aggression, aggression that has been repeated over and over for a hundred years. Russia signed a non-aggression treaty with Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine not maintaining nuclear weapons. Russia has been violating that agreement for decades.

[libertybele]

As has been stated over and over, Burisma and the Biden's corruption was all under the Putin puppet that "Z" replaced, running on cleaning up that corruption. What exactly do you think Zelenskyy was supposed to do with Russia threatening his country while Biden was President regarding Trump??? Zelenskyy desperately needed US and western support to keep his country from being overrun. That was a bit more important than aiding Trump to dig for evidence of Biden's corruption. That's just hard cold reality.

Only problem is Hunter was involved with that puppet.  Z is NOT innocent.  Ukraine regardless under Z or Poroshenko is not innocent.  Different leader -- different terms -- different corruption.  Regardless of the corruption is still exists and probably more so now with Biden in the oval office.

Zelenskyy has gotten support from US and the 'west' -- again, how many BILLIONS or perhaps now it is reached trillions does Z need to win this war.

I had posted a link to an article awhile back to leaders of other countries questioning the legitimacy of how the $$$ that Z is/was being spent.

I've posted many links but perhaps the most compelling was the research that Glen Beck and his team did on the Ukraine timeline before Z and the involvement of Hunter.  Of course, most news sources list Hunter as innocent.  B.S. The corruption happened even prior to Beck's timeline.

[LMAO]

I don't think Rand or Ron are idiots. They really shine in certain areas. Foreign policy isn't one of them. Isolationism won't work at this time. In reality it never has. It's like me building a huge wall around my property and isolating from the neighbors. When the neighborhood falls to hell in a handbasket hoping they are going to skip past me.

I do agree with this. I am not an isolationist. I am a big supporter of Ron Paul, but I don’t know if I would trust him that much in national security issues.  But it would be pretty tough to convince Americans to accept budget cuts while money is being pumped over to Ukraine

I get the implications if Russia wins. There’s no question that Russia is the aggressor here. And I am not opposed to sending Ukraine weapons that they need. But we are starting to see some of the economic implications of a debt that has become increasingly unsustainable and that needs to be weighed as well

[catfish1957]

If I was the underwriter, this loan would be C-- rated.  Well, let me take that back.....   I can't think of a more riskier loan.  The probability that Debt holders will see the full value of return in 30 yrs. is approaching zero percent. 

[DB]

Only problem is Hunter was involved with that puppet.  Z is NOT innocent.  Ukraine regardless under Z or Poroshenko is not innocent.  Different leader -- different terms -- different corruption.  Regardless of the corruption is still exists and probably more so now with Biden in the oval office.

Zelenskyy has gotten support from US and the 'west' -- again, how many BILLIONS or perhaps now it is reached trillions does Z need to win this war.

I had posted a link to an article awhile back to leaders of other countries questioning the legitimacy of how the $$$ that Z is/was being spent.

I've posted many links but perhaps the most compelling was the research that Glen Beck and his team did on the Ukraine timeline before Z and the involvement of Hunter.  Of course, most news sources list Hunter as innocent.  B.S. The corruption happened even prior to Beck's timeline.

You keep asserting that Zelenskyy is to blame - but provide no actual evidence of that. Just feelings that you are certain of. Again, what exactly is he supposed to do under the circumstances he finds himself in? It is actually pretty amazing he's still alive.

Many, if not most, of the billions never made it to Ukraine. And I've said all along, don't send cash, send weapons. Not doing that is on us, not Zelenskyy.

[LMAO]

Cool. Then tell me, how does Ukrainian, Georgian, or Moldovan 'corruption' justify the Russian invasions and occupations of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova?

It doesn’t

I wonder if Obama and the Democrats are laughing anymore at Romney’s 2012 statement of Russia being the  biggest geopolitical threat in the future?

[libertybele]

You keep asserting that Zelenskyy is to blame - but provide no actual evidence of that. Just feelings that you are certain of. Again, what exactly is he supposed to do under the circumstances he finds himself in? It is actually pretty amazing he's still alive.

Many, if not most, of the billions never made it to Ukraine. And I've said all along, don't send cash, send weapons. Not doing that is on us, not Zelenskyy.

No, I am not asserting that Z is to blame, but I am insinuating that he is not completely innocent either. As for the innocence of the Russo-Ukraine conflict which if you go back decades the conflict just isn't limited to modern day Ukraine, you have to go back decades....pick a side....pick a time in history that you want to focus on.  Putin sure as heck isn't innocent either.

Did he escalate the war?  Yes?  Why?  Why did he escalate the war during Biden's time and not Trump's????  Biden is weak you say....so he's taking advantage of the weakness of the U.S. and nothing at all to do with the U.S. giving Z $$$??

Send weapons, yet Z gets up an begs for $$.  No actual evidence?  Not feelings.  Again, I am reflecting back on the research that Glen Beck has done.  I guess one can refute the research and evidence that he provided, but in that light, than yes, I am of the opinion that Beck's research is correct.

[libertybele]

I do agree with this. I am not an isolationist. I am a big supporter of Ron Paul, but I don’t know if I would trust him that much in national security issues.  But it would be pretty tough to convince Americans to accept budget cuts while money is being pumped over to Ukraine

I get the implications if Russia wins. There’s no question that Russia is the aggressor here. And I am not opposed to sending Ukraine weapons that they need. But we are starting to see some of the economic implications of a debt that has become increasingly unsustainable and that needs to be weighed as well

Agreed, I really admire Dr. Ron Paul, but never much of a fan of his foreign policies, but in retrospect perhaps in some cases he is correct.

Budget cuts? I don't know if most Americans realize the amount of $$ that we keep printing in order to support Ukraine??? For that matter, and I have to throw this in -- how many border walls we could have built with that $$$???

[MeganC]

What time frame are your referring to??  The recent conflict or are you going back decades??  Corruption is on both sides.  Justification??  I guess it would depend on how far back in history you want to go and determine the land boundaries.

As for territories and boundaries (Mondolvia as an example) being created that just doesn't involve Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

I asked a pretty simple and straightforward question.

But let me make it even simpler:

Does corruption in one country justify invasion and annexation by another?

[Kamaji]

I asked a pretty simple and straightforward question.

But let me make it even simpler:

Does corruption in one country justify invasion and annexation by another?

You'll be waiting a long, long time for anything other than slavish pro-Putin propaganda points.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You'll be waiting a long, long time for anything other than slavish pro-Putin propaganda points.

I look forward to the day you are capable of discerning a pro-US opinion from a pro-Putin opinion.  ----  No need to rush, I'm not holding my breath.

[Right_in_Virginia]

She'll just make shit up like she always does. She's impervious to facts.

I'm not impervious to facts @DB  ---- I am not afraid of them. 

[Kamaji]

Putin on the Ritz.

[berdie]

I asked a pretty simple and straightforward question.

But let me make it even simpler:

Does corruption in one country justify invasion and annexation by another?

Exactly

[LMAO]

Putin on the Ritz.

This what’s forming the pro Putin stance in the MAGA movement

Donald Trump enjoyed hearing that he had drawn praise from the Russian leader Vladimir Putin, the former US president and frontrunner for the 2024 Republican White House nomination has said.
Told during a recorded interview with Kristen Welker, the new NBC Meet the Press moderator, that Putin had fawned over his stance on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Trump replied: “I like that he said that. Because that means what I’m saying is right.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/16/donald-trump-putin-praise-nbc-interview


Keep in mind, the MAGA movement is about loyalty to Trump.Putin praises Trump then he’s a-ok in their book

It’s not they oppose aiding Ukraine for fiscal reasons. They’re backing the most fiscally irresponsible president

[libertybele]

I asked a pretty simple and straightforward question.

But let me make it even simpler:

Does corruption in one country justify invasion and annexation by another?

Corruption is pretty much a global issue as well as an issue within our own country. So if you want a yes or no answer, it all depends on what the corruption consists of and what your opinion agrees with. If only things were black and white and cut and dry.

With Biden as corrupt and weak as he is would that justify China attacking us?  How about Russia?  N. Korea?  What about the invasion at our border? Mexico is corrupt they are invading us, so would war be justified?

Just because Z took over doesn't mean that the slate was wiped clean and no further corruption has taken place Does that give Putin reason to escalate the war?  What was the immediate threat?

I gave several straight forward answers with some links, so let me make it even simpler for you; countries invading other countries have been going on since the beginning of time and the conflict between Russia and Ukraine has been on going. So, the invasions and annexations have been on going -- not just on Russia's part as I mentioned earlier.  There's even been 'rumor' (nothing documented by liberal means of course) of Ukrainian leaders killing their own people to fulfill an agenda and blaming it on the Russians. 

In short, IMHO in just referencing Russia and Ukraine, neither country is innocent. Since I was old enough to read, Russia has been the monster under the bed.  Much propaganda has been circulated and certainly there has also been earlier divisions of Ukraine.

The Balkan area itself has seen conflicts, divisions, as well for many decades.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-vladimir-putin-racial-injustice-serbia-kosovo-756fa71c7ab417115ee3521a95791ca7

https://balkaninsight.com/2024/02/23/two-years-on-balkan-states-remain-divided-over-ukraine-war/

https://www.snd-us.com/liberty/392-parallels-between-ukraine-and-ex-yugoslavia.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations

[Timber Rattler]

Ok ... but IMHO RIV on this issue isn't just making things up as she goes along.  She is pretty darn knowledgeable.

No she's not. She doesn't know doodley-squat about Russia, Ukraine, or Europe, much less Zelensky, who wasn't even elected as President of Ukraine until April 2019, and by a landslide.

[Kamaji]

No she's not. She doesn't know doodley-squat about Russia, Ukraine, or Europe, much less Zelensky, who wasn't even elected as President of Ukraine until April 2019, and by a landslide.

Exactly.