Author Topic: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right  (Read 6772 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« on: September 09, 2019, 05:29:45 pm »
Daily Herald by RICH LOWRY Sep 7, 2019

The fastest way to trend on Twitter, and not in a good way, is to say that the right to bear arms is a God-given right.

Texas state Rep. Matt Schaefer established this beyond a doubt in a Twitter thread in the aftermath of the West Texas shooting spree. He said that he wouldn’t use “the evil acts of a handful of people to diminish the God-given rights of my fellow Texans.”

Progressives were aghast, and when actress Alyssa Milano objected, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz jumped in to support Schaefer’s argument (in less bombastic terms).

The basic proposition isn’t hard to defend, and indeed it is written into our fundamental documents. This doesn’t mean that God wants you to own an AR-15, or that every jot and tittle of our current gun regime is divinely mandated. Far from it. Yet there is a natural right to self-defense, and gun ownership is inherently connected to that right in a modern society.

More: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion/national-editorials/lowry-yes-gun-ownership-is-a-god-given-right/article_51b48b86-ec8d-56a4-8e00-7f9ab090749d.html

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 10:01:48 pm »
Maybe the leftists would approve of the RKBA if the right was Flying Spaghetti Monster-given?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 01:26:37 am »
In the God-given Right to self-defense, there is no 'bag limit' for those who are attacking. Therefore, there should be no limit on the capacity for defense. An AR-15 will suit most, in most situations. If we (collectively) have used firearms of similar design and of the same caliber to defend our country, we should be able to use them to defend ourselves, families, and communities. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 10:41:53 am »
Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own mansion, his property is safe

Psalm 144:1 “Praise the Lord, who is my rock. He trains my hands for war and gives my fingers skill for battle

Luke 22:35-37 “Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?” “No,” they replied. “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels. Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline verga

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 10:47:47 am »
Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own mansion, his property is safe

Psalm 144:1 “Praise the Lord, who is my rock. He trains my hands for war and gives my fingers skill for battle

Luke 22:35-37 “Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?” “No,” they replied. “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels. Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”
Great quotes thank you, Just read Luke 22 this morning.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 10:54:11 am »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline txradioguy

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The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2019, 10:59:21 am »
Great quotes thank you, Just read Luke 22 this morning.

 :beer:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2019, 11:00:50 am »
Yet there is a natural right to self-defense, and gun ownership is inherently connected to that right in a modern society.


Correct.  But what is misunderstood is whether the 2A secures that right for you and me as an individual.   It doesn't.   The Heller decision does.   And that decision exists as the result of a fragile 5 -4 SCOTUS majority.   It will not be difficult for a different SCOTUS,  perhaps as early as during the term  of the next Democratic President,  to overturn Heller and adopt a view of the 2A as a collective right,  subject to the whim of the several States.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2019, 11:05:03 am »
Correct.  But what is misunderstood is whether the 2A secures that right for you and me as an individual.   It doesn't.   The Heller decision does.   And that decision exists as the result of a fragile 5 -4 SCOTUS majority.   It will not be difficult for a different SCOTUS,  perhaps as early as during the term  of the next Democratic President,  to overturn Heller and adopt a view of the 2A as a collective right,  subject to the whim of the several States.
It isn't a question of securing the Right FOR me, it is there to secure the Right AGAINST Government.

The Amendment does not limit the Right of the People, but the actions of Government.
Wave your SCOTUS all you want, the Government does not grant the Right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2019, 11:05:19 am »
Correct.  But what is misunderstood is whether the 2A secures that right for you and me as an individual.   It doesn't.   The Heller decision does.   

I'm in genuine amazement at times how you can be so consistently wrong on the subject.  You've been shown repeatedly where your thinking on this is incorrect or you're jsut blatantly spouting a falsehood and yet here you are...continuing to completely misrepresent the 2nd Amendment and what the Heller decision actually stated and did.

Are you running under the assumption that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline skeeter

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2019, 11:08:37 am »
It isn't a question of securing the Right FOR me, it is there to secure the Right AGAINST Government.

The Amendment does not limit the Right of the People, but the actions of Government.
Wave your SCOTUS all you want, the Government does not grant the Right.

A 'negative charter of liberties' is how a statist views the Constitution - enumerating things the government cannot do. Incidentally thats exactly how Obama described it.

Offline verga

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2019, 11:11:16 am »
Correct.  But what is misunderstood is whether the 2A secures that right for you and me as an individual.   It doesn't.   The Heller decision does.   And that decision exists as the result of a fragile 5 -4 SCOTUS majority.   It will not be difficult for a different SCOTUS,  perhaps as early as during the term  of the next Democratic President,  to overturn Heller and adopt a view of the 2A as a collective right,  subject to the whim of the several States.
How obtuse are you, seriously. The Heller affirms what was ALREADY KNOWN>>>THAT IT IS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT.  If you can't get that through your over thick skull stop posting. We are getting of correcting your ignorance.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2019, 11:23:27 am »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 11:34:48 am »
How obtuse are you, seriously. The Heller affirms what was ALREADY KNOWN>>>THAT IT IS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT.  If you can't get that through your over thick skull stop posting. We are getting of correcting your ignorance.

I do not dispute that the right of individual self-defense is one of a number of natural rights (the term I prefer to "God-given", but it means the same thing).   The question is whether the Constitution secures that right for you and me.   Hiss and piss and moan all you want,  but it is the Heller decision that reads the 2A as securing that right against government encroachment.  But the Heller decision is fragile, and there is an alternative reading - which the SCOTUS adhered to for most of the 20th century based on its plain language - that the 2A concerns itself with protecting the states' collective right to maintain their militias.   Under that view,  your individual RKBA may be a natural right, but its protection by the Constitution is not secured. 

The individual RKBA is secured by means of a 5-4 SCOTUS ruling, just as are the natural rights to privacy and self-determination.

You would be well advised to check your arrogance and condescension and realize just how fragile your precious right really is.   

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 11:39:36 am »
You would be well advised to check your arrogance and condescension and realize just how fragile your precious right really is.

All we have to do is reduce the "right" to a Statute to make it easier for Leftists to simply wipe it out with a District Court level decision.

I find it interesting you refer to it as "your precious right," and not "our precious right."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 11:40:43 am by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2019, 12:41:18 pm »
Neither the Constitution nor the Supreme Court are empowered to confer any rights of self-defense on American citizens.

The right of self-defense exists as a natural condition, one that the laws of nations either recognize or else restrict or deny in defiance of natural law. Heller only explicitly recognized what the 2nd Amendment, specifically in its use of 18th century common law terminology, actually intended to convey. 

Much confusion has arisen about the placement of commas in the text of the Amendment, and also about the meaning of the term "militia" in the prefatory clause. As Justice Scalia made clear in his opinion, one must always look to common usage, legislative records, contemporaneous historical documentation and plain meaning in any effort to determine what outcome was intended in the adoption of a law.

In this case, all available historical sources point to the same outcome: Congress intended by the Bill of Rights to rectify a vital omission from the original Constitution: an explicit recognition of the individual liberties of United States citizens. These freedoms were in no way created, authorized or adopted by the first 10 Amendments - they were recognized as pre-existing, individual, and in the case of the 2nd Amendment, necessary to the security of a free state.     

There is also no reasonable argument about the meaning of the words "shall not be infringed", all protestations to the contrary. The word "infringe" means the same thing in the 21st century as it did in the 18th and 19th: undermine, erode, diminish, weaken, impair, damage, compromise. And the words "shall not" could not be any more Biblical in their conclusiveness. 

My guns belong to me. They protect my family and my property. I will not compromise on my rights because some people are frightened by the wrong things.
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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2019, 12:47:22 pm »
   The question is whether the Constitution secures that right for you and me.

There is no question...it does secure that right for you and me...otherwise known as "the people". 



Quote
but it is the Heller decision that reads the 2A as securing that right against government encroachment.
 

Wrong...no matter how many times you repeat that you're wrong.  It reaffirmed what's written in the Second Amendment.

Quote
But the Heller decision is fragile, and there is an alternative reading - which the SCOTUS adhered to for most of the 20th century based on its plain language - that the 2A concerns itself with protecting the states' collective right to maintain their militias.   Under that view,  your individual RKBA may be a natural right, but its protection by the Constitution is not secured.


Blatant falsehood.  Why do you insist on being so dishonest about Heller and the Second Amendment?

Quote
The individual RKBA is secured by means of a 5-4 SCOTUS ruling, just as are the natural rights to privacy and self-determination.


Wrong.

Quote
You would be well advised to check your arrogance and condescension and realize just how fragile your precious right really is.

You're one of the most arrogant people on this board.  Take your own advice.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2019, 12:49:41 pm »
All we have to do is reduce the "right" to a Statute to make it easier for Leftists to simply wipe it out with a District Court level decision.

@Cyber Liberty That's what he's hoping for despite his protestations to the contrary.

Quote
I find it interesting you refer to it as "your precious right," and not "our precious right."

That's because he's a typical big city Progressive.  He's never fired a gun..never held a gun...doesn't know anyone that owns a gun and doesn't understand why anyone would want to own a gun much less several guns.

It's not precious to him because it doesn't matter to him. 
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2019, 12:55:32 pm »
I do not dispute that the right of individual self-defense is one of a number of natural rights (the term I prefer to "God-given", but it means the same thing).   

No it does not. Nature does not have a higher jurisdiction. God does.


Offline roamer_1

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2019, 12:57:41 pm »
Neither the Constitution nor the Supreme Court are empowered to confer any rights of self-defense on American citizens at all.


Fixed.  :beer:

Offline thackney

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2019, 01:07:59 pm »
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2019, 01:08:12 pm »
@Cyber Liberty That's what he's hoping for despite his protestations to the contrary.

That's because he's a typical big city Progressive.  He's never fired a gun..never held a gun...doesn't know anyone that owns a gun and doesn't understand why anyone would want to own a gun much less several guns.

It's not precious to him because it doesn't matter to him.

He's certainly setting himself apart from those he's arguing with...converting it into a "superior me vs Troglodyte you" discussion.  This is such a shocking surprise.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2019, 01:26:30 pm »
Neither the Constitution nor the Supreme Court are empowered to confer any rights of self-defense on American citizens.

The right of self-defense exists as a natural condition, one that the laws of nations either recognize or else restrict or deny in defiance of natural law. Heller only explicitly recognized what the 2nd Amendment, specifically in its use of 18th century common law terminology, actually intended to convey. 

Much confusion has arisen about the placement of commas in the text of the Amendment, and also about the meaning of the term "militia" in the prefatory clause. As Justice Scalia made clear in his opinion, one must always look to common usage, legislative records, contemporaneous historical documentation and plain meaning in any effort to determine what outcome was intended in the adoption of a law.

In this case, all available historical sources point to the same outcome: Congress intended by the Bill of Rights to rectify a vital omission from the original Constitution: an explicit recognition of the individual liberties of United States citizens. These freedoms were in no way created, authorized or adopted by the first 10 Amendments - they were recognized as pre-existing, individual, and in the case of the 2nd Amendment, necessary to the security of a free state.     

There is also no reasonable argument about the meaning of the words "shall not be infringed", all protestations to the contrary. The word "infringe" means the same thing in the 21st century as it did in the 18th and 19th: undermine, erode, diminish, weaken, impair, damage, compromise. And the words "shall not" could not be any more Biblical in their conclusiveness. 

My guns belong to me. They protect my family and my property. I will not compromise on my rights because some people are frightened by the wrong things.

 :yowsa: pointing-up  The history could not be any more clear.

As Sir William Blackstone and St. Geroge Tucker both affirm.

18th and 19th-Century Commentary on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

@EdJames
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:56:53 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2019, 02:09:23 pm »
Right to vote?

Nope. Protects the right of self-governance which is inherent. See DoI, and why governments are raised among men.

Government is to protect the rights that are God-given. It conveys no rights at all.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 02:10:31 pm by roamer_1 »

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2019, 02:11:35 pm »
A 'negative charter of liberties' is how a statist views the Constitution - enumerating things the government cannot do. Incidentally thats exactly how Obama described it.

That was part of his "fundamentally flawed document" sound bite describing how he views the Constitution.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Bigun

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2019, 02:11:53 pm »
Right to vote?

Cannot be found in our Constitution.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2019, 02:36:15 pm »
All we have to do is reduce the "right" to a Statute to make it easier for Leftists to simply wipe it out with a District Court level decision.

No.  Codifying the individual RKBA does not replace the 2A or Heller.  Rather, it is intended to provide protection against Heller being overturned by a future SCOTUS majority.  Any such codification while Heller remains extant is clearly constitutional,  and any future Court that wants to overturn Heller will be faced not only with the text of the 2A but also the determination of the American people regarding the Constitution's reach as embodied in a law passed by the peoples' elected representatives.

I may be seen by folks on this board as a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that's just paranoia at work.   The Heller decision is vital to extending the 2A to secure the natural, individual right.  It hangs by the thread of the whim of a future SCOTUS.   It is common sense to bolster that ruling by the ringing support of codification.   
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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2019, 02:42:08 pm »
@Jazzhead  And on schedule, out comes the mental illness card to stamp your opponents.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline thackney

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2019, 02:56:49 pm »
Nope. Protects the right of self-governance which is inherent. See DoI, and why governments are raised among men.

Government is to protect the rights that are God-given. It conveys no rights at all.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2019, 03:27:31 pm »
No.  Codifying the individual RKBA does not replace the 2A or Heller.  Rather, it is intended to provide protection against Heller being overturned by a future SCOTUS majority.  Any such codification while Heller remains extant is clearly constitutional,  and any future Court that wants to overturn Heller will be faced not only with the text of the 2A but also the determination of the American people regarding the Constitution's reach as embodied in a law passed by the peoples' elected representatives.

I may be seen by folks on this board as a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that's just paranoia at work.   The Heller decision is vital to extending the 2A to secure the natural, individual right.  It hangs by the thread of the whim of a future SCOTUS.   It is common sense to bolster that ruling by the ringing support of codification.

Speaking of Heller and your complete bastardization of it and what Scalia was saying...


Quote
In its purest application, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is absolute. The right cannot be constrained without also restraining and constraining the sanctity and inviolability of the individual soul. The right of the people to keep and bear arms—the operative clause of the Second Amendment–is not, then, a creation of man. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is simply a codification of, and an acknowledgment of the right preexisting in the individual. It is not a thing that can, lawfully, be defeated through legislation or really destroyed by the State, through government since it was never a thing enacted through legislation or granted or licensed to the individual by grace of the State through the State's Government. To suggest otherwise is mere pretense and artifice. The right of the people to keep and bear arms as a right, preexisting in the individual, is not a novel idea. The U.S. Supreme Court made the point in 1879, as Justice Antonin Scalia reminds those jurists who may have forgotten this critically important fact or who may simply have chosen to ignore it or belittle it. Justice Scalia says, “The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it ‘shall not be infringed.' As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 553, 23 L. Ed. 588 (1876), ‘[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed. . . .” Columbia vs. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 592; 128 S. Ct. 2783, 2797-2798; 171 L. Ed. 2d 637, 657-658 (2008).


ETA:

Quote
The Heller case has cast the right of the people to keep and bear arms in stark relief. Lower Federal District Courts and higher Circuit Courts of Appeal can no longer hide their animus toward the Second Amendment by contending that the import of the Second Amendment has never been adequately resolved by the Courts or by academicians. The Heller case makes abundantly clear, in no uncertain terms, that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right and, more, a preexisting right, intrinsic to the individual, a right unconnected with one's service in a militia.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:32:16 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2019, 03:49:02 pm »
I just want to drop a good deep read on the subject... and the resulting replies are a good read too (especially if you like to extend the argument into the right to defend one's property).

The framers believed that Americans possessed a natural right of self defense, which no government could abrogate. Good history of the laws (taking up past God giving it to us, which is the true source).

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1216392861.shtml
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Offline EdJames

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2019, 03:55:14 pm »
I just want to drop a good deep read on the subject... and the resulting replies are a good read too (especially if you like to extend the argument into the right to defend one's property).

The framers believed that Americans possessed a natural right of self defense, which no government could abrogate. Good history of the laws (taking up past God giving it to us, which is the true source).

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1216392861.shtml

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Offline thackney

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2019, 03:56:45 pm »
I just want to drop a good deep read on the subject... and the resulting replies are a good read too (especially if you like to extend the argument into the right to defend one's property).

The framers believed that Americans possessed a natural right of self defense, which no government could abrogate. Good history of the laws (taking up past God giving it to us, which is the true source).

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1216392861.shtml

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2019, 05:21:33 pm »
@txradioguy,   I have not "bastardized" Scalia;  indeed I agree with his conclusion that the right to individual self-defense is a natural right which the Constitution requires the federal government to secure.   But the result in Heller remains fragile,  and there is no assurance that a future SCOTUS will retain its interpretation of the meaning of the 2A.   

One of the more remarkable aspects of the 2A is the dearth of Constitutional interpretations of the right.   Indeed, there have been only a handful of significant 2A decisions by the SCOTUS in over 200 years.   Heller was the first significant SCOTUS ruling concerning the 2A in over 60 years.   Since Heller (and the decision shortly thereafter that extended the individual right found as secured by Heller to the states),  there have no significant 2A pronouncements by the SCOTUS.   That's in contrast to dozens if not hundreds of significant SCOTUS rulings regarding the First and Fourth amendments.   

The SCOTUS has historically avoided the 2A like the plague.  And that,  I think,  why it is so critical to codify Heller,  to provide a clear statement by the peoples' elected representatives in support of Heller's extension of the 2A to the individual RKBA.  Another potential benefit of codification is that the law could state the appropriate standard of review for courts to apply when determining whether the right has been infringed.       
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2019, 05:54:40 pm »
@txradioguy,   I have not "bastardized" Scalia;  indeed I agree with his conclusion that the right to individual self-defense is a natural right which the Constitution requires the federal government to secure.   But the result in Heller remains fragile,  and there is no assurance that a future SCOTUS will retain its interpretation of the meaning of the 2A.   

You continually misrepresent what Heller did for the Second Amendment...you continue to cherry pick and take completely out of contest what Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion in Heller.  You refuse to see the clear black letter law of the Second Amendment.

Yes...you DO bastardize continually the Heller decision.


Quote
One of the more remarkable aspects of the 2A is the dearth of Constitutional interpretations of the right.   Indeed, there have been only a handful of significant 2A decisions by the SCOTUS in over 200 years.   Heller was the first significant SCOTUS ruling concerning the 2A in over 60 years.   Since Heller (and the decision shortly thereafter that extended the individual right found as secured by Heller to the states),  there have no significant 2A pronouncements by the SCOTUS.   That's in contrast to dozens if not hundreds of significant SCOTUS rulings regarding the First and Fourth amendments. 
 

There is a dearth of interpretations because the right...guaranteed in the Bill of Rights under the Second Amendment is pretty dame clear to the majority of people with a 6th grade reading level. 

Quote
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Unless you're a Liberal or just plain obtuse...there's not a whole lot...if any...interpretation that needs to be done.

For 188 years there wasn't a need for any judicial interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.  Not until racist Democrats and the KKK started implementing laws that infringed on a black man's right to own a gun.



Quote
The SCOTUS has historically avoided the 2A like the plague.  And that,  I think,  why it is so critical to codify Heller,  to provide a clear statement by the peoples' elected representatives in support of Heller's extension of the 2A to the individual RKBA.  Another potential benefit of codification is that the law could state the appropriate standard of review for courts to apply when determining whether the right has been infringed.     

They haven't historically had cases dealing with the second amendment until the late 19th and into the 20th Century because before then it wasn't an issue and there wasn't any doubt what "shall not infringe" meant and what the 2nd Amendment guaranteed. 

It was pretty clear to everyone what was meant in the Second Amendment until you saw the implementation of Jim Crow laws in the south by racist Democrats in order to prevent Blacks from owning firearms. That gave is United States v. Cruikshank and Presser v. Illinois.  Both established that "the Second Amendment right was a right of individuals, not militias, and was not a right to form or belong to a militia, but related to an individual right to bear arms for the good of the United States,"

The justices in Presser further noted that:

Quote
We think it clear that there are no sections under consideration, which only forbid bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law, do not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Activist judges really got going in the 30's with the NFA and again 30 years later when they modified it in 1968.  It's only as Liberalism and Progressivism have taken hold...especially in the big cities that the individual right to keep and bear arms has become a problem.  And it's only a problem that you and your fellow leftists can see appearently.

Heller...as is noted in the majority opinion and as myself and others keep pointing out to you and you continue to ignore...only reaffirms what's written in the Second Amendment.  It doesn't guarantee anything.  It reaffirms.

If you need a dictionary definition of the word "reaffirm" I'll be happy to provide it to you  because you seem a bit confused about its meaning.

The Second Amendment is already codified as I noted above.  It doesn't need any further clarification.  All your scheme seeks to do is take it from being an unalienable right...down to a piece of legislation that can be modified or stricken from our laws as the whim of any politician.

You claim to support Heller...but you talk like the four justices in the dissent.  You as well as the dissenting Justices on the high Court do not accept the facticity of the rights and liberties of man as codified in the Bill of Rights, as natural rights. These Justices—and many other judges that fill the seats on the lower U.S. District Courts and that fill the seats on the higher U.S. Circuit Courts of Appeal—do not and will not accept as axiomatic that the Bill of Rights comprises a set of indefeasible rights and liberties.

And you are right there with them.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2019, 06:03:03 pm »
Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own mansion, his property is safe

Psalm 144:1 “Praise the Lord, who is my rock. He trains my hands for war and gives my fingers skill for battle

Luke 22:35-37 “Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?” “No,” they replied. “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels. Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”

 :amen: Thank you.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2019, 07:04:16 pm »
@txradioguy ,  you don't see the forest for the trees.   I say that Heller interprets the 2A, you say it reaffirms it. Distinction without a difference.   The practical import of the Constitutional right is at the considered whim  of a SCOTUS majority..   And that majority can and will change.  You attach an almost religious importance to the 2A .  But it is flawed language agreed to by flawed men.  The Dems are winning the battle,  because they are using statutes and you won't dainty yourself with the same.

Codify the 2A.   
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 07:08:27 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2019, 03:52:14 am »
I do not dispute that the right of individual self-defense is one of a number of natural rights (the term I prefer to "God-given", but it means the same thing).   The question is whether the Constitution secures that right for you and me.   Hiss and piss and moan all you want,  but it is the Heller decision that reads the 2A as securing that right against government encroachment.  But the Heller decision is fragile, and there is an alternative reading - which the SCOTUS adhered to for most of the 20th century based on its plain language - that the 2A concerns itself with protecting the states' collective right to maintain their militias.   Under that view,  your individual RKBA may be a natural right, but its protection by the Constitution is not secured. 

The individual RKBA is secured by means of a 5-4 SCOTUS ruling, just as are the natural rights to privacy and self-determination.

You would be well advised to check your arrogance and condescension and realize just how fragile your precious right really is.
Let's quit pissing around, here.

The individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is secured by the deterrent presented to government by tens of millions who are armed, and ultimately nothing else save the Grace of the God who granted it.
That is just as the Founders intended, as they discussed, and the government doesn't grant Rights, it only infringes on them.
The 2nd is there to limit the Government, not the People, and properly interpreted would void virtually all legislation regarding the limitations on personal and private arms owned by people who had not committed a serious crime.
It is only since the machinations of Government have encroached so far, on peaceful people who have turned to the courts for relief before reaching for the Fourth Box, that any decision by the SCOTUS was considered necessary at all.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2019, 10:17:05 am »
@txradioguy ,  you don't see the forest for the trees.   I say that Heller interprets the 2A, you say it reaffirms it. Distinction without a difference.   The practical import of the Constitutional right is at the considered whim  of a SCOTUS majority..   And that majority can and will change.  You attach an almost religious importance to the 2A .  But it is flawed language agreed to by flawed men.  The Dems are winning the battle,  because they are using statutes and you won't dainty yourself with the same.

No it's not a distinction without a difference.  They are two distinct views on Heller.  Yours just happens to be factually and historically wrong.

Flawed language and flawed men?  That's very Obama-ish of you.  You're showing your true Progressive roots more and more every day.

You can delude yourself into thinking Dems are winning on the 2A issue...but if that were the case..every single state would have the gun laws of New York and California...yet they don't.

Why is that?

Quote
Codify the 2A.   

It already is...in the Bill of Rights.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2019, 10:19:59 am »
Let's quit pissing around, here.

The individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is secured by the deterrent presented to government by tens of millions who are armed, and ultimately nothing else save the Grace of the God who granted it.
That is just as the Founders intended, as they discussed, and the government doesn't grant Rights, it only infringes on them.
The 2nd is there to limit the Government, not the People, and properly interpreted would void virtually all legislation regarding the limitations on personal and private arms owned by people who had not committed a serious crime.
It is only since the machinations of Government have encroached so far, on peaceful people who have turned to the courts for relief before reaching for the Fourth Box, that any decision by the SCOTUS was considered necessary at all.

QFT
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline verga

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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2019, 10:39:59 am »
Let's quit pissing around, here.

The individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is secured by the deterrent presented to government by tens of millions who are armed, and ultimately nothing else save the Grace of the God who granted it.
That is just as the Founders intended, as they discussed, and the government doesn't grant Rights, it only infringes on them.
The 2nd is there to limit the Government, not the People, and properly interpreted would void virtually all legislation regarding the limitations on personal and private arms owned by people who had not committed a serious crime.
It is only since the machinations of Government have encroached so far, on peaceful people who have turned to the courts for relief before reaching for the Fourth Box, that any decision by the SCOTUS was considered necessary at all.
Until liberals understand this we will keep having these debates. I wish they would read the 1st amendment this tightly.
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Re: Yes, gun ownership is a God-given right
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2019, 10:44:29 am »
QFT

And it has been that way since day one!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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