This technology could fundamentally change our relationship to electricity

[Free Vulcan]

A great deal of the electricity in the United States goes to waste.

Much is lost in the initial generation of electricity. And much is lost through the use of inefficient devices, like incandescent light bulbs that heat up a filament to produce light.

But power is also lost in between, on the grid, as it is carried along hundreds of miles of wires, repeatedly shifted between different voltages, and converted from AC to DC and back, all in the split second between the time it enters the grid and the time it powers your computer.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/6/5/17373314/electricity-technology-efficiency-software-waste-3dfs

[thackney]

First: A close-up, real-time view of electricity reveals that there is a lot more waste happening on the grid than current estimates capture. 3DFS contends that the waste DOE clusters under the nebulous term “conversion losses” is in fact spread out across the grid, in generation, transmission, distribution, and consumption. That’s what their measurements have shown.

BS!

I work in electrical power.  I've worked in the electric utility industries and I've been the design engineer on complete stand alone system for remote oilfield installation.  That power losses never goes into the generator, cables or transformers.  It is a measurement of the energy in the fuel that doesn't go down the driveshaft to the generator.  If that energy loss was going through the generator and wires at the power plant, that equipment would have to be more than twice as big as they currently are.  We constantly measure the power at that point.  The existing wires would be melting if this claim was true.

[driftdiver]

So how much is really lost.  I won't believe that nothing is lost in the transmission lines.

Seems likely that all the buzzing, crackling and popping we hear is simply an example of the loss.

Rather then only increasing power generation capacity perhaps it might help to explore reducing the loss between the generator and the consumer.

[endicom]

There are some warning signs here. The global warming mantra. Capitalism as a stumbling block. Targeting homes.

[driftdiver]

There are some warning signs here. The global warming mantra. Capitalism as a stumbling block. Targeting homes.

@endicom
Never read the article.  I only leads to more trouble

[thackney]

So how much is really lost.  I won't believe that nothing is lost in the transmission lines.

Seems likely that all the buzzing, crackling and popping we hear is simply an example of the loss.

Rather then only increasing power generation capacity perhaps it might help to explore reducing the loss between the generator and the consumer.

Nobody is claiming that.  It is the third line down on the grapic I copied out of the article.  Line losses (which in the the transmission line, substation, distribution and end user transformers) are shown.  But they are damn near insignificant compared to the losses in a thermal power plant, especially a coal fueled power plant that may consume 1/3 of the generated power (past the generator) to clean up the exhaust to an accepted level.

[thackney]

@endicom
Never read the article.  I only leads to more trouble

This article is full of lies and intentionally misleading information.  It is to sell a product for the end user that won't perform as claimed.  This is the 200 mpg carburetor of 1970.

[driftdiver]

Nobody is claiming that.  It is the third line down on the grapic I copied out of the article.  Line losses (which in the the transmission line, substation, distribution and end user transformers) are shown.  But they are damn near insignificant compared to the losses in a thermal power plant, especially a coal fueled power plant that may consume 1/3 of the generated power (past the generator) to clean up the exhaust to an accepted level.

I think it depends on the agenda of whoever is trying to sell it.  Companies that make transmission lines and equipment are going to point to the plant.  The plant is going to point to the lines. 

I think we should all go to hamster power.   Those little animals have unending energy.

[aligncare]

I wonder if entropy is a factor?

[thackney]

I think it depends on the agenda of whoever is trying to sell it. Companies that make transmission lines and equipment are going to point to the plant.  The plant is going to point to the lines. 

I think we should all go to hamster power.   Those little animals have unending energy.

Those are often operated by the same company.  Power measurement isn't complex.  Power is transmitted by electron flow and easily measured.

As they said in the article, losses are heat and vibration, those are not hard to measure.  If those major losses at the power plant are not really occurring, why is all that heat going out the exhaust and cooling towers?

Those fancy terms they throw out to sound impressive:

But power turns out to be pretty complex. The technology 3DFS developed in its Pittsboro, North Carolina, research facility measures 26 separate parameters of electricity, including voltage, phase angle, phase imbalance, active power, reactive power, harmonics, power factor, and more.

Yeah, we measure all that, and unlike the lies in the article, we measure it digitally.  We have for decades.  My transformer control relays look like:



The instruction manual is 570 pages.

This isn't 1950 anymore in the power industry any more than it is in the communication industry.

[driftdiver]

BS!

I work in electrical power.  I've worked in the electric utility industries and I've been the design engineer on complete stand alone system for remote oilfield installation.  That power losses never goes into the generator, cables or transformers.  It is a measurement of the energy in the fuel that doesn't go down the driveshaft to the generator.  If that energy loss was going through the generator and wires at the power plant, that equipment would have to be more than twice as big as they currently are.  We constantly measure the power at that point.  The existing wires would be melting if this claim was true.

@thackney
So I read PART of the article, shocking, don't tell @RoosGirl.  The point of the article is that the current methods of measuring electricity and therefor loss is not accurate.  This new gizmo is claiming to do it more accurately.  Further the technology can be used to improve the quality of the energy which reduces a significant amount of waste.   Efficiency increases up to 30-35% in things that use motors, computers or industrial uses.

[driftdiver]

This isn't 1950 anymore in the power industry any more than it is in the communication industry.

@thackney
I've worked in the communications industry and using it as a comparison is NOT a good thing.   Let these guys prove what they are saying.  If true its a tremendous technology.   If not true then they've spent their money and time and not ours.

Thats how the free market works.   But refusing to even acknowledge it and thinking we know all there is to know is a fallacy.

[thackney]

@thackney
So I read PART of the article, shocking, don't tell @RoosGirl.  The point of the article is that the current methods of measuring electricity and therefor loss is not accurate.  This new gizmo is claiming to do it more accurately.  Further the technology can be used to improve the quality of the energy which reduces a significant amount of waste.   Efficiency increases up to 30-35% in things that use motors, computers or industrial uses.

And it is total BS.  Electrical energy is the flow of electrons.  It generates heat and magnetic fields in a easily measurable amounts.  The relationship is linear with the materials.

Again, if that energy was going through the generator and the wires, it would be melting the generator and the wires.

200 mpg carburetor.

Also they attribute this magic losses to noise, harmonic losses and the like.  Those didn't exist until we started adding electronics that have to chop up the 60Hz Analog wave power cycle.  Yet the loss ratio of power plant to power line to end user has changed less than a percentage point or two since before these items existed.

[thackney]

@thackney
I've worked in the communications industry and using it as a comparison is NOT a good thing.   Let these guys prove what they are saying.  If true its a tremendous technology.   If not true then they've spent their money and time and not ours.

Thats how the free market works.   But refusing to even acknowledge it and thinking we know all there is to know is a fallacy.

But not using basic thinking in evaluating a claim is pretty silly.

Trying to deny the massive amount of heat loss in power plant when it is measured every day is pretty silly. 

[driftdiver]

And it is total BS.  Electrical energy is the flow of electrons.  It generates heat and magnetic fields in a easily measurable amounts.  The relationship is linear with the materials.

Again, if that energy was going through the generator and the wires, it would be melting the generator and the wires.

200 mpg carburetor.

Also they attribute this magic losses to noise, harmonic losses and the like.  Those didn't exist until we started adding electronics that have to chop up the 60Hz Analog wave power cycle.  Yet the loss ratio of power plant to power line to end user has changed less than a percentage point or two since before these items existed.

So your position is that they shouldn't even be given a chance to prove their statements?   According to the article they did prove it to several people who were critical.

[driftdiver]

But not using basic thinking in evaluating a claim is pretty silly.

Trying to deny the massive amount of heat loss in power plant when it is measured every day is pretty silly.

@thackney
As so Im silly now.

Guess those years of training in electronics I had were a waste.  Good day

Like every other power person and many of the communications industry people I've worked with, you are afraid of change.  You combat it with the fervor of a union rep.

[thackney]

So your position is that they shouldn't even be given a chance to prove their statements?   According to the article they did prove it to several people who were critical.

You'll have to point out where I am trying to shut them down.

I'll trying to discuss an article on a forum and point out the very basic false claims in an industry I have worked for nearly 3 decades.  I have some basic knowledge in this area.  Feel free to put me on ignore.

[thackney]

@thackney
As so Im silly now.

Guess those years of training in electronics I had were a waste.  Good day

Like every other power person and many of the communications industry people I've worked with, you are afraid of change.  You combat it with the fervor of a union rep.

If you think the heat coming off the exhaust stack in power plant is imaginary and not measurable...

If you think cooling systems in power plant are just for cosmetic reasons....

[RoosGirl]

Meh, I prefer battery power.

[driftdiver]

If you think the heat coming off the exhaust stack in power plant is imaginary and not measurable...

If you think cooling systems in power plant are just for cosmetic reasons....

@thackney

Please point to where I made that allegation?   Or are you just making shit up to try and cover up how idiotic you sound.   I left the ? off as there is no question what you are doing.

[thackney]

Meh, I prefer battery power.

You should work for one of my vendors.  I recently commissioned a switchgear building that include a Uninterruptible power supply for the controls.

The UPS inverter was powered by the batteries.  The batteries....  Well, there was a rectifier/charger, but they didn't see a need to hook it up.  Not only no wires, but no room for a conduit to route the wires.

I sure wish I could find the battery supplier they are used to working with.  Magic.  Provides power forever with charging.

[Free Vulcan]

BS!

I work in electrical power.  I've worked in the electric utility industries and I've been the design engineer on complete stand alone system for remote oilfield installation.  That power losses never goes into the generator, cables or transformers.  It is a measurement of the energy in the fuel that doesn't go down the driveshaft to the generator.  If that energy loss was going through the generator and wires at the power plant, that equipment would have to be more than twice as big as they currently are.  We constantly measure the power at that point.  The existing wires would be melting if this claim was true.

I thought this might ping your BS meter. It had that feel of bi-coastal left media with a full dose of the Millennial tornado of bull****tery and con artistry that you typically see in publications like Vox, to come away with the impression they were trying to sell snow to the Eskimo.

[thackney]

@thackney

Please point to where I made that allegation?   Or are you just making shit up to try and cover up how idiotic you sound.   I left the ? off as there is no question what you are doing.

They are making that claim, because all energy requires balance.  They point to the chart I linked from their article and claim those losses don't really happen in the plant, they happen downstream in the grid.

For that energy to be going downstream, it cannot also be going up the exhaust and out the cooling towers.  But it is.  And it is measured going out there.  We have to do the BTU calcs in designing these plants.  It doesn't happen by accident.

And if it is going downstream, there is more energy going through the generator itself and the wires itself than it could physically handle without melting down.  I've seen the results of the amount of energy they claim these are carrying; it happens during faults.  And it melts the copper down into puddles.

The article is full of false claims.  Pretend it is magic if you want.

[thackney]

I thought this might ping your BS meter. It had that feel of bi-coastal left media with a full dose of the Millennial tornado of bull****tery and con artistry that you typically see in publications like Vox, to come away with the impression they were trying to sell snow to the Eskimo.

It broke my meter, first bent the needle, cracked the glass then launched the spring across the room.

This one is over the top stupid by using a bunch of jargon and just skipping over very basic stuff.

[RoosGirl]

You should work for one of my vendors.  I recently commissioned a switchgear building that include a Uninterruptible power supply for the controls.

The UPS inverter was powered by the batteries.  The batteries....  Well, there was a rectifier/charger, but they didn't see a need to hook it up.  Not only no wires, but no room for a conduit to route the wires.

I sure wish I could find the battery supplier they are used to working with.  Magic.  Provides power forever with charging.

Oh, yeah.  I like the kind of batteries you just throw away when they're all used up; double A, triple A, button and the like.

[thackney]

Oh, yeah.  I like the kind of batteries you just throw away when they're all used up; double A, triple A, button and the like.

I think these came with a 10 year warranty under constant use.

[Frank Cannon]

Oh, yeah.  I like the kind of batteries you just throw away when they're all used up; double A, triple A, button and the like.

It's even better when you put those battery in a snowball when you throw them away......and you are aiming at someones head.

[RoosGirl]

It's even better when you put those battery in a snowball when you throw them away......and you are aiming at someones head.

Oh yeah, I do that all the time.

[Suppressed]

BS!

I work in electrical power.  I've worked in the electric utility industries and I've been the design engineer on complete stand alone system for remote oilfield installation.  That power losses never goes into the generator, cables or transformers.  It is a measurement of the energy in the fuel that doesn't go down the driveshaft to the generator.  If that energy loss was going through the generator and wires at the power plant, that equipment would have to be more than twice as big as they currently are.  We constantly measure the power at that point.  The existing wires would be melting if this claim was true.

So, if that's the case, the naysayers are wrong -- we really could build huge solar plants in the Sahara and have little T&D loss?

[Cyber Liberty]

Oh yeah, I do that all the time.

With all that snow you have, yeah.

[RoosGirl]

With all that snow you have, yeah.

 ^-^

[thackney]

So, if that's the case, the naysayers are wrong -- we really could build huge solar plants in the Sahara and have little T&D loss?

Well keep in mind average total miles between plant and end user is probably 3~400 miles.

7,000 miles is going to have some more losses.

But that ratio of losses has been the case for a long time.  It used to be >9% many years ago but efficiencies have improved since then.

Electric power transmission and distribution losses (% of output)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.LOSS.ZS

Energy storage is still the main issue for wind/solar.  It can be overcome, but at what cost?

[GtHawk]

Well keep in mind average total miles between plant and end user is probably 3~400 miles.

7,000 miles is going to have some more losses.

But that ratio of losses has been the case for a long time.  It used to be >9% many years ago but efficiencies have improved since then.

Electric power transmission and distribution losses (% of output)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.LOSS.ZS

Energy storage is still the main issue for wind/solar.  It can be overcome, but at what cost?

Ask the Germans

[Joe Wooten]

Nobody is claiming that.  It is the third line down on the grapic I copied out of the article.  Line losses (which in the the transmission line, substation, distribution and end user transformers) are shown.  But they are damn near insignificant compared to the losses in a thermal power plant, especially a coal fueled power plant that may consume 1/3 of the generated power (past the generator) to clean up the exhaust to an accepted level.

Yep. The limitations of the Carnot cycle ensure that. A typical modern gas/coal fired steam plant runs about 45% efficiency. The new nukes run about 36%. Combined cycle plants are the most efficient of all and they run about 60%. So at best, 40% of the energy you use to make heat to drive a generator goes out into the environment. Line losses are large, but are also insignificant compared to plant losses. We could spend a fortune on a superconducting grid to lower those losses, but it would never pay off with today's technology.

Bottoming cycles can be installed in the condensers and generate additional power using Freon turbines and maybe eke out another 4-5% efficiency gain, but again the capital cost of such bottoming cycle equipment and the maintenance costs are huge and guaranteed to never pay off, which is why no one has ever installed such systems on commercial plants, except as demonstrators on small college campus power plants (University of Texas).

The guys writing that article had what we call in the nuke biz a Loss Of Physics Accident (LOPA)

[thackney]

The guys writing that article had what we call in the nuke biz a Loss Of Physics Accident (LOPA)

LOL, I need to remember that.