Author Topic: Southern Baptist Minister: Christianity has died in the hands of evangelicals  (Read 1406 times)

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Offline WingNot

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Come out of the closet Jazzy.  We all know you only push this crap because you're are a Homo.
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Offline INVAR

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LOL. Leave it to the sites resident Leftist to post some blog piece from Miguel De La Torre, a social justice warrior and Commie nutjob, as some sort of relevant commentary on religion. This guy is a radical bomb thrower, open borders creep and LGBT lover.

Why would we expect our resident Bible-hating Leftist to post anything else other than what promotes his own twisted and bigoted hatreds upon the rest of us as 'reasonable'??
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Because of folks of good conscience generally. 

No, because of Christians specifically, and their political machinery.

Quote
Note that my comments, and the author's, have been directed at Evangelical leaders, who pimp their religious faith to advance bigoted political agendas by supporting candidates of low moral character.   

I don't disagree with you in the slightest that many Christians of REAL faith ignore such "leaders" and demand their elected representative be of good character and reject bigotry.

Your rather self-serving definition of bigotry is much like the SJW definition.

Make your argument from Scripture - Because that contains the definitions , constants, and parameters of the Judeo-Christian Ethic. Which again, you cannot.

Refusing to accept a non-Biblical license to sin is not bigotry.

Offline Jazzhead

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Come out of the closet Jazzy.  We all know you only push this crap because you're are a Homo.

Mrs. Jazz and I met 42 years ago yesterday.  (Yep, we met on Valentine's Day   :cool:  )

My concern for the issue relates to several dear friends and relatives who've been in committed same-sex relationships for many years.   Good people, salt of the earth.  And yeah, they've had to endure all the harassment and insults from bigoted douchebags like yourself for most of their lives.   So kiss my ass.   
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:40:46 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline roamer_1

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My concern for the issue relates to several dear friends and relatives who've been in committed same-sex relationships for many years.   Good people, salt of the earth.  And yeah, they've had to endure all the harassment and insults from bigoted douchebags like yourself for most of their lives.   So kiss my ass.

Ahh. Who's the bigot now?
 :talkhand:

Offline Free Vulcan

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Evangelical leaders supported a bigoted child molester just to maintain a GOP majority in the Senate.   That may be justifiable from the standpoint of hardball politics, but these purport to be men of God.  They should be ashamed of themselves, if they weren't shameless.   

Only from your perspective, and you are not my Pope or Personal Jesus.
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Offline Restored

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My concern for the issue relates to several dear friends and relatives who've been in committed same-sex relationships for many years.   Good people, salt of the earth.  And yeah, they've had to endure all the harassment and insults from **bigoted douchebags like yourself** for most of their lives.   So kiss my ass.

Insults, huh? Sounds terrible.
Countdown to Resignation

Offline the_doc

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I don't care for his anti-Trumpish patina, but there's a lot of food for thought in this professor's take on the bad name some folks are giving to Christianity.   

Here's my take, friend @Jazzhead:

The author has evidently bought into Revolution Theology, which is a near-miss version of the gospel that is very popular in Latin/South America.  It is especially popular with the Jesuits.  It speaks of social justice in "peace-and-love" terms but always winds up stirring up unlovely conflict between social classes.

In short, the things that you correctly identified as "food for thought" are potentially deceptive.  It goes without saying that real Christians have real faults, but I would say that the "minister" who wrote the article could very well be the exemplar of faults in the professing church.  He seems to have no idea of the real problem in both the evangelical movement and the RCC--and yet he deigns to preach against other professing Christians.

Be careful with this stuff.  The gospel is actually radically different from what the fellow thinks it is. 

Offline INVAR

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Be careful with this stuff.  The gospel is actually radically different from what the fellow thinks it is.

Jazzy rejects the bible and the true Gospel in favor of the gospel as defined and championed by Red Letter Sojourners.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Jazzhead

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Jazzy rejects the bible and the true Gospel in favor of the gospel as defined and championed by Red Letter Sojourners.

You are no more an authority than I am (or anyone else).  What you have that most others lack is the hubris to brag that you know the Mind of God.   You are a mere mosquito on the windshield of life.   
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Offline roamer_1

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You are no more an authority than I am (or anyone else). 

LOL! Yes, he is. More so than most.

Offline INVAR

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You are no more an authority than I am (or anyone else).  What you have that most others lack is the hubris to brag that you know the Mind of God.   You are a mere mosquito on the windshield of life.

As has been pointed out to you - anyone can know the mind of God.

He had it written down and preserved for anyone to learn from it.

However, you openly and vehemently have rejected it in favor of your own morality that accentuates and lifts up the natural mind as superior to that of a Being you hate, because He does not fit within the modern debauchery of societal virtue you demonically ascribe to Him.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 10:34:11 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Hoodat

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Not sure what evangelicalism has to do with Trump or white supremacists, but I find it hilarious to hear a Southern Baptist complain of deadening Christianity.  Perhaps he should also state his opinions on the Present Truth church.  I would love to hear his opinion on prophesying, praying in tongues, laying hands, healing, and the anointing of women to preach the gospel of the kingdom.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Treating a radical social activist like this guy with any respect is ridiculous.

Here's an example of his agenda, which received awards at the Social Film Festival 2017.
Trails of Hope and Terror

https://vimeo.com/79285280
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline HoustonSam

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First some bona fides, not to suggest that my judgment is superior or my virtues greater, but simply to demonstrate that I do know something about this :  HoustonSam is a life-long Southern Baptist, an ordained deacon, and an adult Sunday School teacher of years' standing.  I've been on the roll of one Southern Baptist church or another every day of the 56 years of my life, not always active and not always in His will, but always believing.

I don't see any indication in the cited article that the author is a Southern Baptist Minister.  Even if there were such indication, Southern Baptist Ministers have no monopoly on truth; isn't that what De La Torre is actually saying?  Citing his (real or imagined) credentials as a Southern Baptist Minister seems not only to miss the point, but to reverse it.

"The beauty of the gospel message — of love, of peace and of fraternity — has been murdered by the ambitions of Trumpish flimflammers who have sold their souls for expediency."  The gospel message is *redemption* not love, peace, or fraternity.  Even atheists believe in love, peace, and fraternity.  We believers are *called to* love, peace, and fraternity, but as an *indicator* that we are redeemed by Christ's blood.  Right off the bat De La Torre fails.

"Evangelicals have constructed an exclusive interpretation which fuses and confuses white supremacy with salvation. Only those from the dominant culture, along with their supposed inferiors who with colonized minds embrace assimilation, can be saved."  Assertion without evidence.  This is pure polemic, not reasoned argumentation.  My personal experience is not necessarily representative of Southern Baptists (or evangelicals) generally, but I've never heard anything remotely like this preached from a Southern Baptist pulpit or taught in a Southern Baptist Sunday School class.  In fact Southern Baptists operate one of the most extensive Foreign Missions in Christendom, hardly consistent with the charge that our belief limits salvation to whites or others assimilated into white culture.  "Pastor" De La Torre has obviously never heard of the Lottie Moon foreign mission offering.

"— their fear of blacks, their fear of the undocumented, their fear of Muslims, their fear of everything queer."  In Him we are more than conquerors.  We don't fear any of these demographics, in fact we hope to share the love of Christ with all of them.  This is just De La Torre indulging his own prejudice.

"A message of hate permeates their pronouncements, evident in sulphurous proclamations like the Nashville Statement, which elevates centuries of sexual dysfunctionalities since the days of Augustine by imposing them upon Holy Writ. They condemn as sin those who express love outside the evangelical anti-body straitjacket."  Nothing in the Nashville Statement can fairly be described as hate.  Read it here for yourselves : https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement/.  De La Torre roundly condemns those who express faith outside his own ideological straitjacket, and for the most part without evidence.

"Christianity at a profit is an abomination before all that is Holy. From their gilded pedestals erected in white centers of wealth and power, they gaslight all to believe they are the ones being persecuted because of their faith."  I'll certainly agree that Christianity is not supposed to be profitable in material terms.  However this material distortion of faith is not limited to white practitioners.  Again, De La Torre's own prejudice is thrown into sharp relief.

"To ignore the damage caused to God’s creation so the few can profit in raping Mother Earth causes celebrations in the fiery pits of Gehenna."  One who invokes God's creation to indulge his own pique will likely pay a ruinous cost for ignoring God's law.  And I'm talking about justifying homosexual behavior here.  Furthermore, HoustonSam also holds a PhD in Chemistry, and can state with very high confidence that models of atmospheric behavior are *not* science, but have been elevated to scientism.

"Evangelicalism forsakes holding a sexual predator, an adulterer, a liar and a racist accountable, instead serving as a shield against those who question POTUS’ immorality because of some warped reincarnation of Cyrus."  I'll agree here that associating Trump with Cyrus is insane, or at best desperate to the point of delusional.  I don't think a believer, even in a leadership role, is spiritually obligated to vote for the best Christian.  But I do believe a leader in the faith should not endorse or be seen to endorse someone whose conduct has consistently violated Christian standards.  Vote for whom you will and answer honestly when asked, but leave it at that.  I lost huge respect for Robert Jeffress at First Baptist of Dallas because of his outspoken support for Trump, which he compounded with intellectual dishonesty by emphasizing that he had not endorsed Trump.  I would have no problem with Jeffress voting for Trump; my position is that he should not have made any public appearances with or on behalf of Trump.

"Evangelicalism either remained silent or actually supported Charlottesville goose steppers because they protect their white privilege with the doublespeak of preserving heritage, leading them to equate opponents of fascist movements with the purveyors of hatred."  Again, cited without evidence that evangelicals have in any sense supported white supremacists.  Evangelicals are under no obligation, spiritual, moral, or logical, to voice support for De La Torre's favorite causes.  And furthermore some of the opponents of fascist movements *are* purveyors of hatred.

We Southern Baptists don't have a copyright on the brand "Southern Baptist."  Anyone can call himself that.  We don't have a central authority which can exclude someone from all Southern Baptist congregations, and I doubt there is *any* remaining Southern Baptist congregation which would exclude someone from its roll.  I'm not a reader of Baptist News Global, but it appears to be an organ of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which broke away from the Southern Baptist Convention because it felt the SBC was too conservative.  Guess what, the SBC isn't that conservative anymore.  I wish we were.
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Offline the_doc

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First some bona fides, not to suggest that my judgment is superior or my virtues greater, but simply to demonstrate that I do know something about this :  HoustonSam is a life-long Southern Baptist, an ordained deacon, and an adult Sunday School teacher of years' standing.  I've been on the roll of one Southern Baptist church or another every day of the 56 years of my life, not always active and not always in His will, but always believing.

I don't see any indication in the cited article that the author is a Southern Baptist Minister.  Even if there were such indication, Southern Baptist Ministers have no monopoly on truth; isn't that what De La Torre is actually saying?  Citing his (real or imagined) credentials as a Southern Baptist Minister seems not only to miss the point, but to reverse it.

"The beauty of the gospel message — of love, of peace and of fraternity — has been murdered by the ambitions of Trumpish flimflammers who have sold their souls for expediency."  The gospel message is *redemption* not love, peace, or fraternity.  Even atheists believe in love, peace, and fraternity.  We believers are *called to* love, peace, and fraternity, but as an *indicator* that we are redeemed by Christ's blood.  Right off the bat De La Torre fails.

"Evangelicals have constructed an exclusive interpretation which fuses and confuses white supremacy with salvation. Only those from the dominant culture, along with their supposed inferiors who with colonized minds embrace assimilation, can be saved."  Assertion without evidence.  This is pure polemic, not reasoned argumentation.  My personal experience is not necessarily representative of Southern Baptists (or evangelicals) generally, but I've never heard anything remotely like this preached from a Southern Baptist pulpit or taught in a Southern Baptist Sunday School class.  In fact Southern Baptists operate one of the most extensive Foreign Missions in Christendom, hardly consistent with the charge that our belief limits salvation to whites or others assimilated into white culture.  "Pastor" De La Torre has obviously never heard of the Lottie Moon foreign mission offering.

"— their fear of blacks, their fear of the undocumented, their fear of Muslims, their fear of everything queer."  In Him we are more than conquerors.  We don't fear any of these demographics, in fact we hope to share the love of Christ with all of them.  This is just De La Torre indulging his own prejudice.

"A message of hate permeates their pronouncements, evident in sulphurous proclamations like the Nashville Statement, which elevates centuries of sexual dysfunctionalities since the days of Augustine by imposing them upon Holy Writ. They condemn as sin those who express love outside the evangelical anti-body straitjacket."  Nothing in the Nashville Statement can fairly be described as hate.  Read it here for yourselves : https://cbmw.org/nashville-statement/.  De La Torre roundly condemns those who express faith outside his own ideological straitjacket, and for the most part without evidence.

"Christianity at a profit is an abomination before all that is Holy. From their gilded pedestals erected in white centers of wealth and power, they gaslight all to believe they are the ones being persecuted because of their faith."  I'll certainly agree that Christianity is not supposed to be profitable in material terms.  However this material distortion of faith is not limited to white practitioners.  Again, De La Torre's own prejudice is thrown into sharp relief.

"To ignore the damage caused to God’s creation so the few can profit in raping Mother Earth causes celebrations in the fiery pits of Gehenna."  One who invokes God's creation to indulge his own pique will likely pay a ruinous cost for ignoring God's law.  And I'm talking about justifying homosexual behavior here.  Furthermore, HoustonSam also holds a PhD in Chemistry, and can state with very high confidence that models of atmospheric behavior are *not* science, but have been elevated to scientism.

"Evangelicalism forsakes holding a sexual predator, an adulterer, a liar and a racist accountable, instead serving as a shield against those who question POTUS’ immorality because of some warped reincarnation of Cyrus."  I'll agree here that associating Trump with Cyrus is insane, or at best desperate to the point of delusional.  I don't think a believer, even in a leadership role, is spiritually obligated to vote for the best Christian.  But I do believe a leader in the faith should not endorse or be seen to endorse someone whose conduct has consistently violated Christian standards.  Vote for whom you will and answer honestly when asked, but leave it at that.  I lost huge respect for Robert Jeffress at First Baptist of Dallas because of his outspoken support for Trump, which he compounded with intellectual dishonesty by emphasizing that he had not endorsed Trump.  I would have no problem with Jeffress voting for Trump; my position is that he should not have made any public appearances with or on behalf of Trump.

"Evangelicalism either remained silent or actually supported Charlottesville goose steppers because they protect their white privilege with the doublespeak of preserving heritage, leading them to equate opponents of fascist movements with the purveyors of hatred."  Again, cited without evidence that evangelicals have in any sense supported white supremacists.  Evangelicals are under no obligation, spiritual, moral, or logical, to voice support for De La Torre's favorite causes.  And furthermore some of the opponents of fascist movements *are* purveyors of hatred.

We Southern Baptists don't have a copyright on the brand "Southern Baptist."  Anyone can call himself that.  We don't have a central authority which can exclude someone from all Southern Baptist congregations, and I doubt there is *any* remaining Southern Baptist congregation which would exclude someone from its roll.  I'm not a reader of Baptist News Global, but it appears to be an organ of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which broke away from the Southern Baptist Convention because it felt the SBC was too conservative.  Guess what, the SBC isn't that conservative anymore.  I wish we were.

Thanks, from a Sovereign Grace Texas Baptist.

Offline roamer_1

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Very well said @HoustonSam

Full agreement.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Origiinal article, FWIW:

https://baptistnews.com/article/death-christianity-u-s/#.WoWtabiYFVK

I agree in this instance with JH, not even addressing the article does not seem to be rising to the debate.

Now, maybe this baptistnews.com is the liberal party to begin with, hence, they are whom I'd criticize. I don't appreciate JH's view of seeming to go after, at least, the Fundamentalist Evangelical types but this is the point of contention in the article actually.

And it's just one story, an editorial out of many, what's the big deal?

Hispanics go to exclusive Baptist churches themselves.  I think this De La Torre's view is overblown and probably self-absorbed, that is legitimate criticism.

I found this article interesting -- I had not heard of the "Cyrus prophecy" before and its connection to President Trump.
Micah 6:8  "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

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